Q:
SO-CALLED "BRUSH GUNS"? What is your take on "brush bucking" capabilities of a particular cartridge? I missed a cow elk several years ago because I did not clear some bitterbrush betwen me and the elk. In my haste to shoot, I went to a sitting position and right into the scope, placing the brush out of my focal plane - Bang, miss! Here are Chuck Hawks's thoughts in the first answer. What are yours?
Question by WA Mtnhunter. Uploaded on March 02, 2010
Answers (16)
Here is a link to Chuck Hawk's article. I agree with him and jack O'Connor's test he references. To me, a brush gun is one that is handy to carry in the thick stuff, not to shoot through it! Suburban Legend at its finest!
http://www.chuckhawks.com/woods_rifles.htm
I tend to agree. I think shooting through brush on purpose is just hoping to get lucky no matter what caliber & cartridge you're shooting. I might try to "thread the needle" but I'm always looking for a clean shot.
I have never attempted a shot through brush. A minor deflection can have grave results. As seadog pointed out, threading the needle is different.
Ain't no such animal! Even the big 45/70 slugs are deflected to a certain extent by brush. Brush comes in many sizes from straw to saplings and any of it can deflect a bullet. Sage old gun writer Sam Fadala did extensive tests back in 80's shooting everything from muzzle loaders and peas shooters to Elephant bashers through brush piles of ever increasing density and diameter. His findings were that some times bullets get through in a relatively straight line, most times they don't. Most times the bullets were key holing and acting like knuckle balls even from the big boomers. His one constant was that big slugs have a better chance of making it through relatively small amounts of brush, but the odds were stacked against them.
I have to agree from personal experience and from what I've read from people who know a lot more about guns than I do. A long time ago, I believed the Legend about brush-bucking heavy bullets and tried a few shots in brush. I was successful in the couple of instances when the brush was right in front of the deer, but the closer the brush was to me, to more likely the bullet was to go to parts unknown. It has been many, many years since I even thought about trying a shot with anything in the way. Plus one to WAMH.
i dont think any cartridge is brush round . it is all a matter of luck if you hit , and if a person going to rely on just luck for shot placement the person is a fool for taking the shot . i fully agree with you that a brush gun is one that is handy to tote in the thick stuff, as well as one thats quick to shoulder and put in to action .
Excellent article Sir! Another same test was conducted with many deferent cartridges and the one that surprised everyone the most was the 50 BMG. At close range, it too tumbled when it struck the brush used for test. One of the best references I know is in Hatchers Notebook. A 30-06 was fired twice into wooden boards with a 150 grain FMJ. At close range, the bullet tumbled upon impact and only penetrated just short of a foot. At 200 yards, the bullet despite the loss of velocity and energy penetrated deeply approximately 36 inches traveling a straight line. The reason it penetrated more at 200 yards, the bullet had a chance to stabilize.
Chuck Hawkes has some worthwhile reading; I use to pay the fee for the additional content and blogging privileges. Chuck seems to have a love affair with the Ruger #1 (very nice gun for a single) but it gets a little annoying when he rates it number 1 for anything and everything.
I almost wish there was a good brush bucker. There have been some pretty big animals well within range, but with brush between. This seems to happen in archery situations more often than it does with a gun for me. With a rifle, a scope mounted as low as possible will help with "threading the needle". This means you don't need some giant objective. 32mm is plenty.
Largely I think brush busting is a myth. that being said bullets with high sectional density would probably fair better. Also bullets with lower velocities are probably less likely to break up.
Have to agree that no caliber is a brush buster. I do agree with the premise of what a brush gun is. Not sure I agree with Hawks that pumps are faster than levers, I think that depends on the user. I was rudely snapped out of the brush buster myth when I saw a .30-'06 deflect off of a broom-weed stem.
I read the O'Connor article many years ago. IME the best brush shot is one that does not touch any brush. This has worked for me by shooting thru a small hole in the brush.
Shooting through brush is foolishness. I could write several paragraphs on this subject, actually a book, and my first sentence would still hold
They never made a "brush gun". They made rifles that are short and handy while crawling through thick brush, but all and I repeat all bullets are deflected by the brush and that is when we end up with a miss or worse yet a crippled animal that gets away and suffers a slow death.
I am far from being a gun or ballistic expert but know enough not to shoot through brush.
Billards or bowling the ball will alter its course to some degree when it comes in contact with anything. A lighter pool ball deflects a lot while the heavier bowling ball deflects less, but it still deflects. The heavy bullet of the "brush gun" deflects less, but it does deflect. At even 100 yards just a minor deflection is still a miss.
It is true that any bullet will deflect in a varying fashion by brush. The bigger and slower the bullet, the less deflection seems to occur. Where I grew up hunting deer, I would have eaten tags if I wasn't able to shoot through a little brush. The little fast bullets up to .30 caliber were a lost cause and I wouldn't waste my time shooting one at a deer in brush. Very few if any could be expected to cut through any brush (shrubs, grass, saplings). Even a slow moving 30-30 was doubtful. I shot a .35 Remington and it definitely made it through brush better than any of those. I once shot a deer between the eyes at 100 yards. I thought I had a clear window through the brush and his head was all I could see. On its way, the bullet lobbed above my line of sight and penetrated a 3" limb about 60 yards out. The 200 grain, round nose, slow moving bullet hit right where I was aiming and killed the deer instantly. It was not important to me whether the bullet was tumbling or not. I trust that these will chop some brush and get through about half the time, if not more. I have also shot a .375 through the brush and I am here to tell you that the bullet may be slightly deflected but it keeps traveling in pretty heavy brush. It will stay close enough to point of aim after penetrating a six inch tree to kill effectively. In brush shooting, I was taught to look for an opening but if I couldn't find one in one second to follow and shoot. The bullet will make it to the target about 1 out of three times and the rest of the time, the bullet will be lodged in a giant tree trunk. I use that technique and have never had to eat a tag. I have also never had to follow a blood trail because if they were hit, the deer were hit good and they dropped on the spot. I have seen a little deflection but rarely more than a couple of inches at 50 yards or so. The big round nosed or flat nosed bullets do the best by far. I would not trust anything moving over 2400 fps and 2000 fps seems to be better.
I have a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser with a 16 inch barrel and can not find the Model number, but it handles and shoots great. Last season I jumped one of the biggest bucks I've seen in years and discovered heavy use by deer. Thick brush and my 6.5 with the short barrel loaded with Hornady 160 grain round nose should be the ticket! Thought about the 30-30, but 6.5x55 sounds more appealing and besides, I'll have my 140 grain loads with me!
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Here is a link to Chuck Hawk's article. I agree with him and jack O'Connor's test he references. To me, a brush gun is one that is handy to carry in the thick stuff, not to shoot through it! Suburban Legend at its finest!
http://www.chuckhawks.com/woods_rifles.htm
Ain't no such animal! Even the big 45/70 slugs are deflected to a certain extent by brush. Brush comes in many sizes from straw to saplings and any of it can deflect a bullet. Sage old gun writer Sam Fadala did extensive tests back in 80's shooting everything from muzzle loaders and peas shooters to Elephant bashers through brush piles of ever increasing density and diameter. His findings were that some times bullets get through in a relatively straight line, most times they don't. Most times the bullets were key holing and acting like knuckle balls even from the big boomers. His one constant was that big slugs have a better chance of making it through relatively small amounts of brush, but the odds were stacked against them.
Shooting through brush is foolishness. I could write several paragraphs on this subject, actually a book, and my first sentence would still hold
i dont think any cartridge is brush round . it is all a matter of luck if you hit , and if a person going to rely on just luck for shot placement the person is a fool for taking the shot . i fully agree with you that a brush gun is one that is handy to tote in the thick stuff, as well as one thats quick to shoulder and put in to action .
I tend to agree. I think shooting through brush on purpose is just hoping to get lucky no matter what caliber & cartridge you're shooting. I might try to "thread the needle" but I'm always looking for a clean shot.
I have never attempted a shot through brush. A minor deflection can have grave results. As seadog pointed out, threading the needle is different.
I have to agree from personal experience and from what I've read from people who know a lot more about guns than I do. A long time ago, I believed the Legend about brush-bucking heavy bullets and tried a few shots in brush. I was successful in the couple of instances when the brush was right in front of the deer, but the closer the brush was to me, to more likely the bullet was to go to parts unknown. It has been many, many years since I even thought about trying a shot with anything in the way. Plus one to WAMH.
Excellent article Sir! Another same test was conducted with many deferent cartridges and the one that surprised everyone the most was the 50 BMG. At close range, it too tumbled when it struck the brush used for test. One of the best references I know is in Hatchers Notebook. A 30-06 was fired twice into wooden boards with a 150 grain FMJ. At close range, the bullet tumbled upon impact and only penetrated just short of a foot. At 200 yards, the bullet despite the loss of velocity and energy penetrated deeply approximately 36 inches traveling a straight line. The reason it penetrated more at 200 yards, the bullet had a chance to stabilize.
Have to agree that no caliber is a brush buster. I do agree with the premise of what a brush gun is. Not sure I agree with Hawks that pumps are faster than levers, I think that depends on the user. I was rudely snapped out of the brush buster myth when I saw a .30-'06 deflect off of a broom-weed stem.
I read the O'Connor article many years ago. IME the best brush shot is one that does not touch any brush. This has worked for me by shooting thru a small hole in the brush.
Chuck Hawkes has some worthwhile reading; I use to pay the fee for the additional content and blogging privileges. Chuck seems to have a love affair with the Ruger #1 (very nice gun for a single) but it gets a little annoying when he rates it number 1 for anything and everything.
I almost wish there was a good brush bucker. There have been some pretty big animals well within range, but with brush between. This seems to happen in archery situations more often than it does with a gun for me. With a rifle, a scope mounted as low as possible will help with "threading the needle". This means you don't need some giant objective. 32mm is plenty.
Largely I think brush busting is a myth. that being said bullets with high sectional density would probably fair better. Also bullets with lower velocities are probably less likely to break up.
They never made a "brush gun". They made rifles that are short and handy while crawling through thick brush, but all and I repeat all bullets are deflected by the brush and that is when we end up with a miss or worse yet a crippled animal that gets away and suffers a slow death.
I am far from being a gun or ballistic expert but know enough not to shoot through brush.
Billards or bowling the ball will alter its course to some degree when it comes in contact with anything. A lighter pool ball deflects a lot while the heavier bowling ball deflects less, but it still deflects. The heavy bullet of the "brush gun" deflects less, but it does deflect. At even 100 yards just a minor deflection is still a miss.
It is true that any bullet will deflect in a varying fashion by brush. The bigger and slower the bullet, the less deflection seems to occur. Where I grew up hunting deer, I would have eaten tags if I wasn't able to shoot through a little brush. The little fast bullets up to .30 caliber were a lost cause and I wouldn't waste my time shooting one at a deer in brush. Very few if any could be expected to cut through any brush (shrubs, grass, saplings). Even a slow moving 30-30 was doubtful. I shot a .35 Remington and it definitely made it through brush better than any of those. I once shot a deer between the eyes at 100 yards. I thought I had a clear window through the brush and his head was all I could see. On its way, the bullet lobbed above my line of sight and penetrated a 3" limb about 60 yards out. The 200 grain, round nose, slow moving bullet hit right where I was aiming and killed the deer instantly. It was not important to me whether the bullet was tumbling or not. I trust that these will chop some brush and get through about half the time, if not more. I have also shot a .375 through the brush and I am here to tell you that the bullet may be slightly deflected but it keeps traveling in pretty heavy brush. It will stay close enough to point of aim after penetrating a six inch tree to kill effectively. In brush shooting, I was taught to look for an opening but if I couldn't find one in one second to follow and shoot. The bullet will make it to the target about 1 out of three times and the rest of the time, the bullet will be lodged in a giant tree trunk. I use that technique and have never had to eat a tag. I have also never had to follow a blood trail because if they were hit, the deer were hit good and they dropped on the spot. I have seen a little deflection but rarely more than a couple of inches at 50 yards or so. The big round nosed or flat nosed bullets do the best by far. I would not trust anything moving over 2400 fps and 2000 fps seems to be better.
I have a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser with a 16 inch barrel and can not find the Model number, but it handles and shoots great. Last season I jumped one of the biggest bucks I've seen in years and discovered heavy use by deer. Thick brush and my 6.5 with the short barrel loaded with Hornady 160 grain round nose should be the ticket! Thought about the 30-30, but 6.5x55 sounds more appealing and besides, I'll have my 140 grain loads with me!
Post an Answer