Q:
ive been in a few tussles about whats a good turkey load, alot of guys tell me i dont need to be shooting the big 3 1/2 inch 5 or 4 shot, and all i need is a 7.5 2 3/4 inch load. my final answer as to why i shoot big loads is in the first answer.
Question by scratchgolf72. Uploaded on April 27, 2011
Answers (21)
consider the flight characteristics of #8 lead shot. nearly half of our muzzle velocity has vanished by the time we hit 40 yards. A 1220 fps load of #8 shot has only 665 fps left at 40 yards. there is only one way to better time of fight, decreased drop, and decreased windage, and increased impact velocity (and thus penetration) with a 1220 fps load of the same density, that being the use of larger shot. no matter what we do with #8 shot, it won’t equal #4 shot. number #4 shot, launched at 1220 fps, retains nearly the same velocity at 50% more range, 655 fps 60 yards, than our #8 shot has at 40 yards.
heres some numbers on shot sizes, when the gun is held horizontaly.
No. 2 - 330 yards
No. 4 - 286 yards
No. 6 - 242 yards
No. 7 1/2- 209 yards
No. 8 - 198 yards
(not sure what powder charge was, but it was consistent wit all the shells)
in that instance where you might have a hung up bird at 50 yards, ands its the last day of the season, and your going to shoot him, you want the big load of #4shot. its like throwing a ping pong ball versus a golf ball. golf ball will go farther and retain more energy.
granted at 20 yards the bird wont know the difference, but in that instance where you have to reach out, you want that larger shot size, which retains better velocity, and in the end more killing power. say what you want about pattern density, i want that harder hitting load. specially if for some reason you make a poor shot and make a body shot, those wings are like body armor and you want the harder hitting load.
this is why i shoot big loads with larger shot size
Why shoot such slow loads? And I wouldn't advise shooting anything but sparrows with #8 shot. Scale down you shot weight and pick up the speed and you shouldn't have any trouble knocking a turkey in the head at 35-40 yards standing still. I wouldn't think so anyway. My two cents worth.
Shoot all the birds you want in body with 4's and you will collect darn few of them, even birds that are at 30 yards. Some of us old farts like to call birds in closer than 40 yards and have developed the patience to pass on those so called 50 yard shots.
A pattern board and a paper target will stand still at 50 yards and a tom doesn't At 40-50 yards #4 shot from a rapidly opening pattern do carry the energy to penetrate into the body. But... that load may not have enough pellets bunched tight enough to crack his skull or break his neck this requires multiple pellet hits unless you eye ball or ear hole him. Those body hits from such a load provide a slow death for old tom.
I began my turkey hunting career long ago with a Browning Sweet Sixteen and a 1 1/8 ounce load of #6's. I now use a 3 inch load of #5 copper plated lead in the Federal Flite Control rounds. I agree with you on energy transfer but even a #5 typically won't do deadly damage on a body hit bird that flys or runs away after the shot. My favorite shot size is still the number 6 but my current turkey gun and choke of choice will pattern the 5's better than the 6's.
Killing a gobbler quickly and cleanly requires a hit in the head and neck area from a dense pattern of shot applying multiple hits to the neck bones and skull. 7.5 and 4 are at the extremes on both ends of the stick. #6's and #5's provide enough weight and density to accomplish this at any sane range.
One more thing, just because it is the last hour of the last day there is no excuse to take a marginal shot at any animal. We refer to that as sportsmanship.
I know unethical is a strong word but, a 50yd shot on a tom is bordering that especially a body shot of any shot size. In my opinion body shots on a tom are for arrows and broadheads not shot guns. If you have success with it then more power to you. I personally wouldn't take that shot and risk wounding one. Head/neck shots kill them instantly.
A veterinarian buddy of mine x-rayed his last 7 or 8 birds and discovered there was no more than 2 pellets in the head and neck of the birds he has killed. A few only had one peice of shot.
Personally I have never shot a bird over 30 yards. It's just too much fun calling them in close.
no im not saying i shoot them in the body, but it something were to go wrong and you get a body shot, you want the bigger shot...ive never done it, but ive seen it done before.
Scratch golf similar arguments are used for heavier larger shot for duck hunting and retained killing velocity of a BB, 2, 3 vs smaller 4,5,s and that has some validity, most ducks I clean have 1-3 pellets through them, and I like them to be bigger pellets, but I went hunting with remington high speed #6's in 16 gauge and I didn't feel under powered for a gobbler within moderate range. Whatever you feel comfortable with will work, but don't blame the arrow.
Back in the day, real men killed them all the time at 20 yards with a 2 3/4 inch load. Why do we suddenly need 3.5 inch loads to extend our range to 50 yards plus? Is it maybe because we no longer have the patience to learn the skills it takes to call them in close?
To answer the question, a good load is somewhere in between. I like 3" #5, but I've been thinking about using 6. Not in need of any range extensions, so 6 will do fine.
OHH - Turkey loads are usually pretty slow. High payloads make for slower velocities. They already kick pretty bad. To get turkey loads going at good waterfowling velocities would be murderous.
i kill them all the time between 10-25 yards...but i dont pass on big birds at 40-50.
"I like big ole wammy shells you know for when you want to put a big ole hole in something." lol rough quote from the dukes of hazard movie. I use 3 inch mag in my 20ga remington 870 express and have no problem putting a bird down at 30 yards. I should mention I use a modified choke otherwise the patterns all over the place at 20yrds.
I forgot to answer a pretty important part of the question... I use number 4 shot 3"mag its been about a year since I patterned my gun or turkey hunted no tag this year to much school.
When I did Hunt Turkeys with a shotgun, I used Win.
Duck&Pheasant Load 12ga/2.75",1.25oz#6..or Rem,Duplex
12ga/1.50oz#4x6, load all on full choke,Great 40yd stopper's...I never Felt the need for 3"or 3.50" chamber to kill a turkey, JMO!
I've said this before, and I'll say it again.
For turkeys, I shoot a Rem 870 12 bore with an X-tra full choke tube. My ammo is Winchester Super X High Brass 2 3/4 inch with No. 7 1/2 shot. I've lost (missed?) one bird in the last eight years. If you can't bring 'em inside 35 yards, forget the shotgun and use a .22 Hornet or something simular.
Bubba
Capstick put it best:
"Pattern density, NOT shot size, kills."
Bubba
i can bring them inside 35 yards, i do it all the time. bubba you have played the game long enough to know not every bird is going to come in close. some of you guys make it sound like you just walk into the woods and call every bird right into your lap. make it sound like your calling abilities are superior to mine in some way. doesnt happen like that unfortunately.
and i do have patience in the woods....enough to let him get within 50 yards. its hes coming, ill let him come all the way to 10 yards. if hes not, and its obvious he wont budge, hes gettin it. i will say this, the first turkey i called in on my own and killed, i shot him at FIVE YARDS, FIVE! i could have poked him with my gun barrel.
basically your guys arguement is this. if i dont wait for one dumb enough to come strolling into 20 steps away i shouldnt shoot him. IMO, if he comes looking for me, even if he gets hung up at 40 yards, ive still got him fooled. he came in thinking there was a hen there, just because he didnt come closer doesnt mean hes not fooled. i did my job if i got him coming in my direction. and i have a sneaky suspicion a few of you on here, if that big bird stepped out at forty yards, you would shoot. you might not say it on here, but you would do it.
Yep, Shane, I can appreciate the difference in the loads. If you're not going to have the velocity then you gotta have compensation with inertia - lead and large enough shot to take out their central nervous system. With steel for waterfowl we have to compensate with velocity and therefore sacrifice the density of the load. But we're not making head shots either. Everyone is bang on about calling and patience. Same holds true for goose hunting. The guys with the 3.5" "roman candles" trying to bring down geese floating around fifty yards up in the sky wreck it for everyone. And by everyone, I mean the geese too. Probably half a dozen crippled ones flying off for every one that drops. Any bird that actually comes in to respectable range is going to get blown to bits. It's all about showing off for these guys. And marketing for the companies that develop this stuff.
Scratchgolf,
Knowing that you are about 19 or 20 and have vast experience in the turkey woods I won't belabor the point. I knew it all one time myself. Good luck in your continued adventures. Maybe I'll be fortunate enough to continue having those dumb ones march into 20 yards.
haha ight lets kinda clear things up here. im in my 6th season of turkey hunting. there are many things i dont know. i dont consider myself a rookie at the game, but i still have QUITE a bit to learn. and im not quite 19 yet, still have 3 months and 2 days till i hit that mark. and yes bee, hopefully both of us are fortunate enough to keep having the "dumb" ones march in on us.
Lesson #1. ANY shotgun, regardless of gauge or shot size, has an "effective" range. Shooting at game beyond that effective range, is unsporting.
Unless you're shooting rifled slugs (illegal for turkeys!) or a 10 bore, NO shotgun should be expected to kill beyond 35/40 yards.
Bubba
bubba,
i do most of my turkey hunting with a ten bore, which will probably be accompanying me into the field on monday for the opener.
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Shoot all the birds you want in body with 4's and you will collect darn few of them, even birds that are at 30 yards. Some of us old farts like to call birds in closer than 40 yards and have developed the patience to pass on those so called 50 yard shots.
A pattern board and a paper target will stand still at 50 yards and a tom doesn't At 40-50 yards #4 shot from a rapidly opening pattern do carry the energy to penetrate into the body. But... that load may not have enough pellets bunched tight enough to crack his skull or break his neck this requires multiple pellet hits unless you eye ball or ear hole him. Those body hits from such a load provide a slow death for old tom.
I began my turkey hunting career long ago with a Browning Sweet Sixteen and a 1 1/8 ounce load of #6's. I now use a 3 inch load of #5 copper plated lead in the Federal Flite Control rounds. I agree with you on energy transfer but even a #5 typically won't do deadly damage on a body hit bird that flys or runs away after the shot. My favorite shot size is still the number 6 but my current turkey gun and choke of choice will pattern the 5's better than the 6's.
Killing a gobbler quickly and cleanly requires a hit in the head and neck area from a dense pattern of shot applying multiple hits to the neck bones and skull. 7.5 and 4 are at the extremes on both ends of the stick. #6's and #5's provide enough weight and density to accomplish this at any sane range.
One more thing, just because it is the last hour of the last day there is no excuse to take a marginal shot at any animal. We refer to that as sportsmanship.
Scratchgolf,
Knowing that you are about 19 or 20 and have vast experience in the turkey woods I won't belabor the point. I knew it all one time myself. Good luck in your continued adventures. Maybe I'll be fortunate enough to continue having those dumb ones march into 20 yards.
I know unethical is a strong word but, a 50yd shot on a tom is bordering that especially a body shot of any shot size. In my opinion body shots on a tom are for arrows and broadheads not shot guns. If you have success with it then more power to you. I personally wouldn't take that shot and risk wounding one. Head/neck shots kill them instantly.
A veterinarian buddy of mine x-rayed his last 7 or 8 birds and discovered there was no more than 2 pellets in the head and neck of the birds he has killed. A few only had one peice of shot.
Personally I have never shot a bird over 30 yards. It's just too much fun calling them in close.
Back in the day, real men killed them all the time at 20 yards with a 2 3/4 inch load. Why do we suddenly need 3.5 inch loads to extend our range to 50 yards plus? Is it maybe because we no longer have the patience to learn the skills it takes to call them in close?
"I like big ole wammy shells you know for when you want to put a big ole hole in something." lol rough quote from the dukes of hazard movie. I use 3 inch mag in my 20ga remington 870 express and have no problem putting a bird down at 30 yards. I should mention I use a modified choke otherwise the patterns all over the place at 20yrds.
When I did Hunt Turkeys with a shotgun, I used Win.
Duck&Pheasant Load 12ga/2.75",1.25oz#6..or Rem,Duplex
12ga/1.50oz#4x6, load all on full choke,Great 40yd stopper's...I never Felt the need for 3"or 3.50" chamber to kill a turkey, JMO!
I've said this before, and I'll say it again.
For turkeys, I shoot a Rem 870 12 bore with an X-tra full choke tube. My ammo is Winchester Super X High Brass 2 3/4 inch with No. 7 1/2 shot. I've lost (missed?) one bird in the last eight years. If you can't bring 'em inside 35 yards, forget the shotgun and use a .22 Hornet or something simular.
Bubba
Capstick put it best:
"Pattern density, NOT shot size, kills."
Bubba
Yep, Shane, I can appreciate the difference in the loads. If you're not going to have the velocity then you gotta have compensation with inertia - lead and large enough shot to take out their central nervous system. With steel for waterfowl we have to compensate with velocity and therefore sacrifice the density of the load. But we're not making head shots either. Everyone is bang on about calling and patience. Same holds true for goose hunting. The guys with the 3.5" "roman candles" trying to bring down geese floating around fifty yards up in the sky wreck it for everyone. And by everyone, I mean the geese too. Probably half a dozen crippled ones flying off for every one that drops. Any bird that actually comes in to respectable range is going to get blown to bits. It's all about showing off for these guys. And marketing for the companies that develop this stuff.
consider the flight characteristics of #8 lead shot. nearly half of our muzzle velocity has vanished by the time we hit 40 yards. A 1220 fps load of #8 shot has only 665 fps left at 40 yards. there is only one way to better time of fight, decreased drop, and decreased windage, and increased impact velocity (and thus penetration) with a 1220 fps load of the same density, that being the use of larger shot. no matter what we do with #8 shot, it won’t equal #4 shot. number #4 shot, launched at 1220 fps, retains nearly the same velocity at 50% more range, 655 fps 60 yards, than our #8 shot has at 40 yards.
heres some numbers on shot sizes, when the gun is held horizontaly.
No. 2 - 330 yards
No. 4 - 286 yards
No. 6 - 242 yards
No. 7 1/2- 209 yards
No. 8 - 198 yards
(not sure what powder charge was, but it was consistent wit all the shells)
in that instance where you might have a hung up bird at 50 yards, ands its the last day of the season, and your going to shoot him, you want the big load of #4shot. its like throwing a ping pong ball versus a golf ball. golf ball will go farther and retain more energy.
granted at 20 yards the bird wont know the difference, but in that instance where you have to reach out, you want that larger shot size, which retains better velocity, and in the end more killing power. say what you want about pattern density, i want that harder hitting load. specially if for some reason you make a poor shot and make a body shot, those wings are like body armor and you want the harder hitting load.
this is why i shoot big loads with larger shot size
Why shoot such slow loads? And I wouldn't advise shooting anything but sparrows with #8 shot. Scale down you shot weight and pick up the speed and you shouldn't have any trouble knocking a turkey in the head at 35-40 yards standing still. I wouldn't think so anyway. My two cents worth.
no im not saying i shoot them in the body, but it something were to go wrong and you get a body shot, you want the bigger shot...ive never done it, but ive seen it done before.
Scratch golf similar arguments are used for heavier larger shot for duck hunting and retained killing velocity of a BB, 2, 3 vs smaller 4,5,s and that has some validity, most ducks I clean have 1-3 pellets through them, and I like them to be bigger pellets, but I went hunting with remington high speed #6's in 16 gauge and I didn't feel under powered for a gobbler within moderate range. Whatever you feel comfortable with will work, but don't blame the arrow.
To answer the question, a good load is somewhere in between. I like 3" #5, but I've been thinking about using 6. Not in need of any range extensions, so 6 will do fine.
OHH - Turkey loads are usually pretty slow. High payloads make for slower velocities. They already kick pretty bad. To get turkey loads going at good waterfowling velocities would be murderous.
i kill them all the time between 10-25 yards...but i dont pass on big birds at 40-50.
I forgot to answer a pretty important part of the question... I use number 4 shot 3"mag its been about a year since I patterned my gun or turkey hunted no tag this year to much school.
i can bring them inside 35 yards, i do it all the time. bubba you have played the game long enough to know not every bird is going to come in close. some of you guys make it sound like you just walk into the woods and call every bird right into your lap. make it sound like your calling abilities are superior to mine in some way. doesnt happen like that unfortunately.
and i do have patience in the woods....enough to let him get within 50 yards. its hes coming, ill let him come all the way to 10 yards. if hes not, and its obvious he wont budge, hes gettin it. i will say this, the first turkey i called in on my own and killed, i shot him at FIVE YARDS, FIVE! i could have poked him with my gun barrel.
basically your guys arguement is this. if i dont wait for one dumb enough to come strolling into 20 steps away i shouldnt shoot him. IMO, if he comes looking for me, even if he gets hung up at 40 yards, ive still got him fooled. he came in thinking there was a hen there, just because he didnt come closer doesnt mean hes not fooled. i did my job if i got him coming in my direction. and i have a sneaky suspicion a few of you on here, if that big bird stepped out at forty yards, you would shoot. you might not say it on here, but you would do it.
haha ight lets kinda clear things up here. im in my 6th season of turkey hunting. there are many things i dont know. i dont consider myself a rookie at the game, but i still have QUITE a bit to learn. and im not quite 19 yet, still have 3 months and 2 days till i hit that mark. and yes bee, hopefully both of us are fortunate enough to keep having the "dumb" ones march in on us.
Lesson #1. ANY shotgun, regardless of gauge or shot size, has an "effective" range. Shooting at game beyond that effective range, is unsporting.
Unless you're shooting rifled slugs (illegal for turkeys!) or a 10 bore, NO shotgun should be expected to kill beyond 35/40 yards.
Bubba
bubba,
i do most of my turkey hunting with a ten bore, which will probably be accompanying me into the field on monday for the opener.
Post an Answer