Q:
If you were hunting in an area where large antlered bucks are few and far between, would you take a little "basket rack" 5 or 6 point buck that had a huge body and was a mature buck for a management buck? The reason I ask is that this is my situation. I do not think that the deer in my area are getting the right nutrients to go these massive racks, but the have huge bodies. although i have seen some bucks that look they are not from that area and have massive racks, but that is only every other year or two. The rule that we normally follow, along with the sorrounding hunters, is if the buck is an 8 point or better and past the ears then its a shooter (also it has to be mature). So basically no one has shot a buck in 3 years. So take the big bodied, small rack, mature deer, or let him go?
Question by mihunter. Uploaded on November 05, 2009
Answers (23)
Even though you are not seeing the Massive Racked bucks that often does not mean they are not there. They get big for a reason. To answer you question it all depends on your personal standards. are you hunting for meat or a wall hanger? If its meat take the basket rack or a doe if its the wall hanger and who doesnt want a wall hanger? Hold off and wait mabey this will be one of the years your in the right spot at the right time.
I am a meat and rack hunter but i also want to manage the deer heard to the best of my ability, and my personal standards allow me to take a basket rack buck, if it means that i will better the deer heard. and i know there are big bucks around, just not many, and there has been a couple basket rack bucks taken in the past couple years, one was aged at 6 years old, most of the others were anywhere from 3-6. there are plenty of bucks but most of them are basket racked. Im not saying shoot every basket racked buck out there, because the one that gets shot might end up being a young deer, i was thinking of just taking one or maybe two per year.
Unless you have a fair sized piece of land, you aren't "managing" the herd. Unless you are in a larger management area with a defined plan, you are wasting your thoughts and time trying to manage a herd you have no control over. Take whatever buck you feel like and enjoy the hunt.
A point for WA Mthunter for the reality check. We tend to overestimate our own importance. Try to remember there are millions of years of evolution behind that basketrack buck. Your choice of what to shoot is like a drop of water in a big river. Management practices can affect what you SEE by allowing bigger bucks to grow to maturity but it is one deer you are affecting, not the gene pool.
I wold take the smaller rack buck. Unless you have a huge plot set up and are doing a true deer management program then the bucks are the bucks. Even in a management theory if you have a 4-5 year buck witha small rack its a good take to keep the huge rack genetics passing on in the future.
If its a mature buck, I say take em.
Take the small mature bucks they are not going to attract bigger bucks to the area and you aren't hurting anything genetics is a craps shoot outside of fences
WA Mthunter and LesserSon +1. these guys are exactly right. unless your farm has a high fence you and a few other hunters can not manage genetics. mature bucks that you see, body mass or otherwise, during the rut may not even call your area home. they could just be visiting the ladies. you have to keep in mind the mature bucks that you don't see, my bet is that they are the wall hangers that you are after.
If its a older deer with a small rack take it out because more and likely it does not have the genetics and forage it needs. If its a younger deer let it walk because its got the potential to be a good buck. Also if you dont have enough land the deer management for you might not work because of people around you shooting them. I would talk to the people around you and get them started on deer managment like you are doing then you will see improvement in you deer.
Take the buck this year and next year plant a nice sized food plot and put out corn and watermelon and maybe start doin that in spring and it mite help a bit!
thank you all for your answers they are pretty good ones. I do not have a huge piece of property although i did get 90% of the land owners within a nice sized radius to go sit down at the bar and come up with the rule of 8 points and past the ears. we have all talked about taking these small rack mature bucks just havent started to do anything yet. and most of the land owners, including myself have large food plots and put out corn.
i realize me and the handful of land owners in the area are not going to make a drastic change in managing the deer heard but i was just asking if it would be a good idea to take these deer, and maybe by an act of god, start getting better racks.
Good answers above. To do quality deer managment it does take several years before you start notice the change. What I would do this year and the next few years is start culling the bucks. Culling I mean the bucks who's antlers are deformed,crooked like 3 points on one side and a single spike on the other. I know it will be hard to do but going to have to past up the basket rack bucks for a few years. Get the cull bucks genes out of area and the nice bucks to breed this should start turning around. This only works if everybody around you does the same thing. If you past up a fork, it jumps the fence and the next group kills him you are accomplishing anything but not filling your tag. Everybody has to work together, by telling what your group harvested. If you do not let the bucks a chance to grow then its not going to work. Remember this does take a few years to get started to where you will notice the difference. Good luck!
Where do you live mihunter? Geography can have an adverse affect on rack size. The further north you go in the US, the smaller the average rack size, but the bigger the deer. The main reasons for this are energy conservation and genetics.
Deer in the more nothern states where the winters are cold need to put more energy into muscle development than antler growth. It's not a conscious decision, but an adaptation that has developed genetically over thousands of years. A bigger deer loses heat slower than a smaller deer...kind of like a bigger person is more comfortable in a cold room than a smaller person.
So to answer your question, if you live in a northern state, and you can accurately age your deer on the hoof to be mature, then go ahead and take them because they are probably trophy deer for the area, even though their racks may never extend beyond the ears.
I live in the NE Lower Pen. of Michigan. In that area we do not have a lot of trophy bucks, but over the past years we taken and seen many large rack bucks. Geographically, for this area the racks do not get like the ones you see on the home page of this web site.
and this link,
http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/88jeepcherokee/hunting%20in%20Ala...,
is a picture of what we consider a good solid buck. that particular one did not have a huge body as most (wighed 190, past bucks on my property have been up to 250), and we would like the mass of the rack to be larger, and was not taken on my property, i shot it in alabama. but it is still a good buck by our standards.
and by basket rack i mean a deer like this, http://i.pbase.com/o5/20/686920/1/68959970.mVsa0LKe.smallbuckstare.jpg, but with a larger body.
And i do appreciate your guys help, i have been trying to get this all worked out with the surrounding hunters for years, just trying to get some new info. to tell them.
I would certainly be filling my tag.
look for dominant basket rack bucks with bad genes basically. they dont breed all of the does but they do drive potentially nicer bucks out in the pre-rut phase . i have passed on many little bucks on a large piece of public land i hunt. ive been told by other hunters "mite as well shoot them the guy next door sure will." well i have pictures this year of 2 nice bucks one a nice 9pt the other a smaller 12. the nine went from a spike to a 6 to a basket 8 and now a wide tall 9. get your doe and buck ratio similar and your bucks wont compete for food as much either. i know some argue that u eliminate your breeding stock but you also dont have a mediocre herd.
that venison is the true trophy take the little feller. the time will come when your given the opportunity for a big boy.
Based on what you've said, it sounds like the geography and the genetics are all wrong for producing huge racked bucks.
It's time to come to a different definition of a trophy deer in your hunting area. I think you should try to define a trophy as a 200+lbs deer sized on the hoof regardless of rack size. I have never heard of a 1.5 year old deer getting bigger than 200 lbs, and it's the 1.5 year olds you really want to avoid harvesting anyway. Another thing you can do is impart a "3 points on one side" restirction. This will allow your hunting parties to start taking some of the really nice 5 and 6 points out of the herd.
So to sum things up, 200+ lbs estimated on the hoof and at least 3 points on a side sounds like a pretty solid game plan for your hunting area. Try it out for the next couple of years and see how it works. If you don't like it and success has not increased, you can always try something else. Good luck!
I guess I'm just an old fart. I hunt for the meat. I'm a farmer. I enjoy venison. I like deer that are fat. I've seen late season bucks with big racks that have meat that is just purple from chasing does for over a month.
I drive over 3000 miles to fish wild cohos in Ak. I love catching them on a flyrod. When I'm deer hunting I just whack one, and then go back to my true love, duck hunting. I still hunt with my model 12 I bought in 64 in a pawn shop for $50. You guys would make your grandfathers turn over in their graves. To me, hunting isn't a sport. Racks come or they don't. KIll a prime eating animal, that's what it's all about.
make your rules 4 on one side or 12 inches wide so you can get rid of cull bucks if the bucks have a small rack and big bodies they are not getting enough nutrients if they have big bodies they are getting enough food
Once again, thanks for all the input. labrador12 - I am a meat hunter for sure, but normally when i want meat ill just shoot a doe, but who wouldnt like to see some nice bucks in the woods? my long term goal here is not to have trophy bucks running all over the woods (althought that would be nice), im just trying to get some decent bucks in the area, and maybe actually see one.
Mihunter- I ran into the same issue with my family about five years back. We collectively own 250 acres in Central WI, our problem is that most of that 250 is surrounded by public land. I was trying to convince my family to let some of the baskets go and the might return as large 10's the next year. Their only reasoning was that someone else would shoot them so why shouldn't they. It was a hard arguement to fight. We are still stuck in the dilema and I just don't bring it up anymore. Good luck
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Unless you have a fair sized piece of land, you aren't "managing" the herd. Unless you are in a larger management area with a defined plan, you are wasting your thoughts and time trying to manage a herd you have no control over. Take whatever buck you feel like and enjoy the hunt.
A point for WA Mthunter for the reality check. We tend to overestimate our own importance. Try to remember there are millions of years of evolution behind that basketrack buck. Your choice of what to shoot is like a drop of water in a big river. Management practices can affect what you SEE by allowing bigger bucks to grow to maturity but it is one deer you are affecting, not the gene pool.
If its a mature buck, I say take em.
Based on what you've said, it sounds like the geography and the genetics are all wrong for producing huge racked bucks.
It's time to come to a different definition of a trophy deer in your hunting area. I think you should try to define a trophy as a 200+lbs deer sized on the hoof regardless of rack size. I have never heard of a 1.5 year old deer getting bigger than 200 lbs, and it's the 1.5 year olds you really want to avoid harvesting anyway. Another thing you can do is impart a "3 points on one side" restirction. This will allow your hunting parties to start taking some of the really nice 5 and 6 points out of the herd.
So to sum things up, 200+ lbs estimated on the hoof and at least 3 points on a side sounds like a pretty solid game plan for your hunting area. Try it out for the next couple of years and see how it works. If you don't like it and success has not increased, you can always try something else. Good luck!
Even though you are not seeing the Massive Racked bucks that often does not mean they are not there. They get big for a reason. To answer you question it all depends on your personal standards. are you hunting for meat or a wall hanger? If its meat take the basket rack or a doe if its the wall hanger and who doesnt want a wall hanger? Hold off and wait mabey this will be one of the years your in the right spot at the right time.
Where do you live mihunter? Geography can have an adverse affect on rack size. The further north you go in the US, the smaller the average rack size, but the bigger the deer. The main reasons for this are energy conservation and genetics.
Deer in the more nothern states where the winters are cold need to put more energy into muscle development than antler growth. It's not a conscious decision, but an adaptation that has developed genetically over thousands of years. A bigger deer loses heat slower than a smaller deer...kind of like a bigger person is more comfortable in a cold room than a smaller person.
So to answer your question, if you live in a northern state, and you can accurately age your deer on the hoof to be mature, then go ahead and take them because they are probably trophy deer for the area, even though their racks may never extend beyond the ears.
I am a meat and rack hunter but i also want to manage the deer heard to the best of my ability, and my personal standards allow me to take a basket rack buck, if it means that i will better the deer heard. and i know there are big bucks around, just not many, and there has been a couple basket rack bucks taken in the past couple years, one was aged at 6 years old, most of the others were anywhere from 3-6. there are plenty of bucks but most of them are basket racked. Im not saying shoot every basket racked buck out there, because the one that gets shot might end up being a young deer, i was thinking of just taking one or maybe two per year.
I wold take the smaller rack buck. Unless you have a huge plot set up and are doing a true deer management program then the bucks are the bucks. Even in a management theory if you have a 4-5 year buck witha small rack its a good take to keep the huge rack genetics passing on in the future.
Take the small mature bucks they are not going to attract bigger bucks to the area and you aren't hurting anything genetics is a craps shoot outside of fences
WA Mthunter and LesserSon +1. these guys are exactly right. unless your farm has a high fence you and a few other hunters can not manage genetics. mature bucks that you see, body mass or otherwise, during the rut may not even call your area home. they could just be visiting the ladies. you have to keep in mind the mature bucks that you don't see, my bet is that they are the wall hangers that you are after.
If its a older deer with a small rack take it out because more and likely it does not have the genetics and forage it needs. If its a younger deer let it walk because its got the potential to be a good buck. Also if you dont have enough land the deer management for you might not work because of people around you shooting them. I would talk to the people around you and get them started on deer managment like you are doing then you will see improvement in you deer.
Take the buck this year and next year plant a nice sized food plot and put out corn and watermelon and maybe start doin that in spring and it mite help a bit!
thank you all for your answers they are pretty good ones. I do not have a huge piece of property although i did get 90% of the land owners within a nice sized radius to go sit down at the bar and come up with the rule of 8 points and past the ears. we have all talked about taking these small rack mature bucks just havent started to do anything yet. and most of the land owners, including myself have large food plots and put out corn.
i realize me and the handful of land owners in the area are not going to make a drastic change in managing the deer heard but i was just asking if it would be a good idea to take these deer, and maybe by an act of god, start getting better racks.
Good answers above. To do quality deer managment it does take several years before you start notice the change. What I would do this year and the next few years is start culling the bucks. Culling I mean the bucks who's antlers are deformed,crooked like 3 points on one side and a single spike on the other. I know it will be hard to do but going to have to past up the basket rack bucks for a few years. Get the cull bucks genes out of area and the nice bucks to breed this should start turning around. This only works if everybody around you does the same thing. If you past up a fork, it jumps the fence and the next group kills him you are accomplishing anything but not filling your tag. Everybody has to work together, by telling what your group harvested. If you do not let the bucks a chance to grow then its not going to work. Remember this does take a few years to get started to where you will notice the difference. Good luck!
I live in the NE Lower Pen. of Michigan. In that area we do not have a lot of trophy bucks, but over the past years we taken and seen many large rack bucks. Geographically, for this area the racks do not get like the ones you see on the home page of this web site.
and this link,
http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/88jeepcherokee/hunting%20in%20Ala...,
is a picture of what we consider a good solid buck. that particular one did not have a huge body as most (wighed 190, past bucks on my property have been up to 250), and we would like the mass of the rack to be larger, and was not taken on my property, i shot it in alabama. but it is still a good buck by our standards.
and by basket rack i mean a deer like this, http://i.pbase.com/o5/20/686920/1/68959970.mVsa0LKe.smallbuckstare.jpg, but with a larger body.
And i do appreciate your guys help, i have been trying to get this all worked out with the surrounding hunters for years, just trying to get some new info. to tell them.
I would certainly be filling my tag.
look for dominant basket rack bucks with bad genes basically. they dont breed all of the does but they do drive potentially nicer bucks out in the pre-rut phase . i have passed on many little bucks on a large piece of public land i hunt. ive been told by other hunters "mite as well shoot them the guy next door sure will." well i have pictures this year of 2 nice bucks one a nice 9pt the other a smaller 12. the nine went from a spike to a 6 to a basket 8 and now a wide tall 9. get your doe and buck ratio similar and your bucks wont compete for food as much either. i know some argue that u eliminate your breeding stock but you also dont have a mediocre herd.
that venison is the true trophy take the little feller. the time will come when your given the opportunity for a big boy.
I guess I'm just an old fart. I hunt for the meat. I'm a farmer. I enjoy venison. I like deer that are fat. I've seen late season bucks with big racks that have meat that is just purple from chasing does for over a month.
I drive over 3000 miles to fish wild cohos in Ak. I love catching them on a flyrod. When I'm deer hunting I just whack one, and then go back to my true love, duck hunting. I still hunt with my model 12 I bought in 64 in a pawn shop for $50. You guys would make your grandfathers turn over in their graves. To me, hunting isn't a sport. Racks come or they don't. KIll a prime eating animal, that's what it's all about.
make your rules 4 on one side or 12 inches wide so you can get rid of cull bucks if the bucks have a small rack and big bodies they are not getting enough nutrients if they have big bodies they are getting enough food
Once again, thanks for all the input. labrador12 - I am a meat hunter for sure, but normally when i want meat ill just shoot a doe, but who wouldnt like to see some nice bucks in the woods? my long term goal here is not to have trophy bucks running all over the woods (althought that would be nice), im just trying to get some decent bucks in the area, and maybe actually see one.
Mihunter- I ran into the same issue with my family about five years back. We collectively own 250 acres in Central WI, our problem is that most of that 250 is surrounded by public land. I was trying to convince my family to let some of the baskets go and the might return as large 10's the next year. Their only reasoning was that someone else would shoot them so why shouldn't they. It was a hard arguement to fight. We are still stuck in the dilema and I just don't bring it up anymore. Good luck
Post an Answer