I was waiting for your explanation for making Rush villain of the year and it sounds more like back tracking than a convincing argument. Don't try to tell me this isn't a political or personal attack on Mr. Limbaugh, you insult your reader's intelligences by doing so. If the HSUS is so dangerous make them the villain not a consistent supporter of sportsmen. My subscription is up this month and I will not be renewing.

I for one applaud your stance - the national HSUS organization is a radical anti-hunting organization that "hides in plain site" and gets alot of misdirected donations from people who think they are giving money to a local humane society group to help spay and neuter stray dogs and cats. Rush Limbaugh has only helped them foster this misunderstanding.

Field and Stream is, after all, a hunting and fishing magazine.

Limbaugh donated $50K in 1999 to PETA in order to make the Pretenders (My City Was Gone - opening music bed) go away. Ten year deal...Now HSUS. Serious esteem problems when you think the openiing music of each hour makes your show. Or, you are a complete phony and hypocrite. Reagan principals? Individual rights? The all knowing, all seeing, all phony hypocrite takes you for granted. Appreciate his politics and show if you want to but don't be like the liberals he (rightfully) criticizes and be in denial.
For what its worth, I carried his show on a radio station I owned when he donated the money to PETA.

HSUS is not only the biggest enemy of sportsmen-- it is opposed to the owning and breeding of domestic animals, period. I have been fighting mandatory spay neuter amendments backed by them for years, in California and New Mexico. Limbaugh either is ignorant, cynical, bought and paid for, or has lost his mind. Any sportsman who does not fight HSUS at every opportunity is in denial or suicidal.

I would agree that Rush is no hero, but beating out the likes of Obama, Bloomberg, Newkirk and Schwarzenegger is a little off. Rush talks about things we don't agree with and may donate money to groups that hassle us, but that is all he is....TALK. All these other people are actively doing something against us, taking our rights away and being morons. Not just hurting our ears as Rush does, hurting our sport. Actions weigh more in my mind than words, just my opinion, I think that everybody in the red are losers (except glenn beck because I think he is a nice guy, not because of some of his views)

Oh, and it is also very humorous that you would not renew a subscription to a magazine that you have clearly enjoyed for years due to one of the contributors attaching a meaningless antagonistic title to a guy that you happen to listen to on the radio. Quite a statement that you are making. It says more about you than it does F&S.

I joined this site to discuss hunting and fishing, NOT POLITICS! Leave it to the NRA and other organizations, I just want tips for bagging bucks and catching bass!

By the way, Rush is a national embarrassment.

Naming someone villain of the year who indirectly attacks hunting and fishing through supporting a animal humane organization is absurd. Am I anti-hunting because I bought a dog at their shelter and gave them money then? With all the direct attacks on our heritage doing something like this does far more harm in alienating people. Especially misguided pet lovers like Mr. Limbaugh who have no ax to grind with us, or didn't till now.

A quote from HSUS's Wildlife Abuse Campaign website:

"The HSUS's Wildlife Abuse Campaign promotes the humane treatment of wildlife by educating the public and lawmakers on the cruelty inherent in sport hunting and targeting the most reprehensible practices."

In other words, the HSUS wants to outlaw all hunting but they are going to be selective and only target a few practices right now because they know they don't have support to outlaw all hunting at this time.

OK now that you've explained Rush, explain Obama being a hero for going fishing once.I also don't see how Glenn Beck is a villain for criticizing TR.This whole piece was political and anyone that doesn't see that must have their head in the sand.

Well I think that the fact that our resident hippie PETA member SS3 is defending an extremely conservative radio host like him is indication enough that he's doing something wrong.
That being said I think people need to relax with the political talk. This is a hunting and fishing magazine and nothing more. Rush gave money to and did promo's for an organization that opposes hunting so field and stream called him on it, end of story.

"punished by him personally"? What's he gonna do? Steal their prescriptions? Sit on them?

HERE"S YOUR SIGN!

Rush, a blowhard, bigot, drug-addict, hypocrite, chicken-hawk, egotistical jack....

Subject: Conservatives/Liberals and who’s the true Modern Hunters Wimps?

Humans originally existed as members of small bands of nomadic
hunters/gatherers. They lived on deer in the mountains during the
summer and would go to the coast and live on fish and lobster in the winter.

The two most important events in all of history were the invention of
beer and the invention of the wheel. The wheel was invented to get man to the beer.
These were the foundation of modern civilization and together were the catalyst for the splitting of humanity into two distinct subgroups:

1. Liberals; and
2. Conservatives

Once beer was discovered, it required grain and that was the
beginning of agriculture. Neither the glass bottle nor aluminum can
were invented yet, so while our early humans were sitting around
waiting for them to be invented, they just stayed close to the
brewery. That's how villages were formed.

Some men spent their days tracking and killing animals to B-B-Q at
night while they were drinking beer. This was the beginning of what
is known as the Conservative movement.

Other men who were weaker and less skilled at hunting learned to live
off the conservatives by showing up for the nightly B-B-Q's and doing
the sewing, fetching, and hair dressing. This was the beginning of the Liberal movement.

Some of these liberal men eventually evolved into women.
The rest became known as girlie-men.

Some noteworthy liberal achievements include the domestication of
cats, the invention of group therapy, group hugs, and the concept of
Democratic voting to decide how to divide the meat and beer that conservatives provided.

Over the years conservatives came to be symbolized by the largest,
most powerful land animal on earth, the elephant. Liberals are
symbolized by the jackass.

Modern liberals like imported beer (with lime added), but most prefer
white wine or imported bottled water. They eat raw fish but like
their beef well done. Sushi, tofu, and French food are standard liberal fare.

Another interesting evolutionary side note: most of their women have
higher testosterone levels than their men. Most social workers,
personal injury attorneys, journalists, dreamers in Hollywood and group
therapists are liberals. Liberals invented the designated hitter rule because it wasn't fair to make the pitcher also bat.

Conservatives drink domestic beer. They eat red meat and still
provide for their women. Conservatives are big-game hunters, rodeo
cowboys, Polymer Science PhDs, lumberjacks, construction workers, firemen, medical doctors, Physicists, police officers, corporate executives, athletes, Marines, and generally anyone who works productively. Conservatives who own companies hire other conservatives who want to work for a living.

Liberals produce little or nothing. They like to govern the producers
and decide what to do with the production. Liberals believe Europeans
are more enlightened than Americans. That is why most of the liberals
remained in Europe when conservatives were coming to America . They
crept in after the Wild West was tamed and created a business of
trying to get more for nothing.

Here ends today's lesson in world history: It should be noted that a
Liberal may have a momentary urge to angrily respond to the above
before forwarding it. A Conservative will simply laugh and be so
convinced of the absolute truth of this history that it will be
forwarded immediately to other true believers and to more liberals
just to piss them off.

So here’s the proof, if you’re a Liberal then the answer is yes, you’re a Modern Hunting Wimp!

This all reminds me of the attack on Sarah Palin

THE TRUTH - LIBERAL WOMEN ARE JEALOUS OF SARAH PALIN
Posted by Mike Silverman on Saturday, September 13, 2008 5:34:14 AM
The more I ponder the vitriol and venom that liberal women are spewing like acid at Sarah Palin, the more I have boiled it down to something less complicated than ideology from them. Sarah Palin is what they wish they could be. These liberal ladies want to have the cheers and throngs of full throated support that Sarah has, and they hate the fact that Sarah is an attractive Republican woman. She's strong, confident, Conservative, happy with her life, beautiful and admired by millions. The liberal female pundits, radical feminists and hollywood kooks who have cultivated thier narrow political audiences are bewildered and jealous over this. Sure there's some ideology mixed in, but I think it's used more as a cover for the seething jealousy of her popularity. To these liberal ladies, "they" are supposed to be the pinnacle of popularity. They have prostituted themsleves to the ideology of a fringe viewpoint , and as a result they get "in" to the elite gatherings of social snobbery that represent that radical view of the country. But , do they really believe the lunacy of the liberalism they spew, or are they towing the line so that they can keep that "in" crowd venue with the mopy miserable depressed liberals who wring thier hands at the unfairness of life, financial success, and carbon-dioxide? I think they secretly wish they could "be" Sarah Palin, because Sarah has not had to go "phony" and be something that "others" want her to be in order to "fit in" with the super egos of radical beligerants. She's not one of them. Sarah doesn't care to rub shoulders with the illuminati of liberal inner circles. It doesn't make sense to the liberal mindset. In thier world view there are not supposed to be "normal" people in this country. Or, at least the "normal" people are supposed to be the "fringe" nutcases not the rallying point of the great majority. But the rest of us know why Sarah is popular. Precisely because she represents the core values we cherish most.

- Mike Silverman, Milford MA

WOW, I listen to him all the time. And one day I heard an add for the HSUS. I thought this has to be the station just getting money, not Rush him self. Just when you think you have someone on your side that is powerfull this crap happens. So let me get this right, It does n't matter were you stand on an issue as long as you get paid. Please don't tell me that Sean Hannity is running for president of P.E.T.A..

Frankly, I think Rush was duped by HSUS --- heck, most of the general public thinks they are good guys that run animal shelters and actually help real animals, and he probably did too. He took the links to the HSUS PSA's off his website darn fast, after his public educated him. I'm sure that contractually he couldn't get those two HSUS PSAs stopped with HSUS. I bet he's learned a lot, though, as many of his listeners educated him. Sadly, he hasn't publically disowned the group - .

Yes, Rush was a villain when he ran those ads. No, that didn't make him worse than Bloomberg or Newkirk! McIntyre, you went into a very in-depth explanation about HSUS and Rush Limbaugh. Where's the in-depth explanation about how this is all worse than Newkirk's PETA or Bloomberg's anti-gun campaign?

Never really cared for Rush. Now I really don't care for him. Partially because he did ad's for HSUS, but mostly because he's a cat person.

Frankly, I think Rush was duped by HSUS

Don't let Rush see this. He never gets duped. NEVER!

Shane,
Personally, I think Rush is a self-serving blow-hard who has found that getting people riled up with ridiculous positions and statements makes him a lot of money. I think he is a drug abuser, a liar and a hypocrite.

With that said, I know a lot of pretty smart people that do listen to him, and I think he may very well be the most influential republican in the country at the moment.

Hey stick500- Please don't take this the wrong way, I am only telling you what I believe. First, I'll bet you are a liberal sportsman that votes democratic because you believe " taking hunters guns away is far off the radar of Obama and most liberals." Well I hate to tell you that you are believing exactly what the anti-gunners want you to believe. You won't be a fighting threat but a voting ally. JUST WHAT THEY WANT. Just take a look at all the anti-gunners ,the huge majority are the liberals, including obama, Biden, Pelosi, Reed,Clinton, Eric Holder (Our attorney general- who said once "the second amendment should be abolished.") and all the rest of them. They do have our guns on their radar, but it takes time and they have lots of it. Why do you think that people like George Sorros funded Obamas' campaign, just like he did for John Kerry when he ran against Bush in 2004. Also, the U.N. has our guns on their radar screen. Second, I'll bet you watch your main stream nightly news on ABC,CBS,NBC,CNN, or one of the other liberal news network. Now third, when you said That "Rush, conservaties, and the GOP dutifully holler the sky is falling every election cycle when it comes to gun control to keep their base and coffers (especially the NRA) fired up." That comment of "holler the sky is falling" sounds like a liberal comment. The only reason why they talk about the gun issue to get the gun owners to vote the anti-gunners out. There is over 70 million gun owners in this country and if every one of them voted to keep their guns, we wouldn't have any anti-gunners in government. NOW that would be a perfect world, no anti-gunners running our country. When I vote, I look at the persons record and Obama and his administration is the most anti-gun administration we have ever had. Sorry about this rant but it irrates me to no end when I hear people that are sportsmen saying stuff like you did. I wasn't knocking you, just trying to set you straight.

Rush Limbaugh is a drug addicted moron who spews nonsense to other morons. His rhetoric is ridiculous. As a fervent outdoorsman I believe his support of the HSUS is extremely detrimental to our hunting heritage as well as our way of life. Rush is not an outdoorsman, nor will he ever be. As usual he is misinformed on what he is preaching.

Bob81

Am I accusing you of lying, of abusing drugs and being hypocritical?

Your shallow minded Bob!

As for the drugs, I work in the medical field and if the person isn't closely monitored by a Physician specializing in pain management Hydrocodone and Oxycodone can be easily abused in other words "PAIN OVER MIND"!

As for Rush lying, I find he will sidestep questions like why we lost Vietnam and how the same thing is happening now. Ofd course, One needs to get their nose out of their armpit to understand the answer!

As for Rush you say is a hypocrite, depends on ones point of view and how they understand the subject. It's like reading the Bible, some will take a line out of it such as ALL THINGS ARE WHITE like the Arion Nation and the "KKK" does. You must read several chapters before and after to understand the real meaning of that phrase. Of course those like Tom McIntyre will pick one thing out the entire mix and run with it.

One thing for sure, of all the things Rush has done has been only against himself, VICTIMLESS!

Some want to just throw Rush under the buss, whats next throw Tiger Woods too!

Not everyone is perfect!

One thing for sure, Field and Stream has been taken out of my Business for the PC bull snit like Tom McIntyre and what they did to Sir Jim Zumbo.

Field and stream wins "douche of the year" for this pick.

Whatever.

Rush didn't get picked for this award becuase his stance on drug use, he didn't get picked for this award because of his consistency (or inconsistency) in behavior and words, and he didn't get picked for his political affiliation.

Rush got picked because (knowingly or not) as one of the most influential political figures in the country, he made multiple endorsements for an anti-hunting organization, and when he was informed of such, he didn't admit he was wrong and didn't issue a retraction or an indictment of the HSUS.

I detect a bar room fight here, LMAO!

Sand Bagger,

Please see my earlier comment:

"The biggest problem I have with Rush is not his addiction per se, it's that he has built a very lucrative career on being critical of others. He has called for drug abusers to essentially be locked up with the key thrown away, while he himself had an addiction. (See my accusation of hypocrisy)."

To me (and I should know, since I wrote it), it looks like I might actually be arguing for understanding in regards to people suffering from drug addiction! My complaint is more against Rush's hypocritical send up of such people!!

As far as getting caught with drugs he didn't have a prescription for to make his "little willie" stand up, ya caught me! I found that pretty d_mn funny!

Greatest and drinking problem or drugs don't go together in my world...

Hey petalover, the one who takes animals out of shelters to stage a killing to make it look like someone else done it.

Why doesn't PETA pick on me!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Bob81,

The drug abusers Rush is referring to is the ones giving the drugs to our kids. The drug addiction he had, I don’t blame him personally, I blame the Doctor! I worked as assistant Administrator for a “Pain Management Doctor” and I’ve seen firsthand how these drugs can be “OVER USED and OVER PRECRIBED” and watch individuals come into the clinic Doctor shopping. During this time, I worked part time as a XRAY Repair tech and traveling around the State servicing equipment, I’ve ran into the same people seeking drugs and yes, I did whisper into the Administrator ear to inform them. The bottom line Sir Bob, for what I do know, I cannot hammer Rush for the addiction, he is human to and as with anyone else, is just as prone as you and I are and there isn’t any over the counter pain relievers safe enough for some of the types of pain for long term use.

As for the support for the ant hunting crowds, I’m sure he meant well at the time. I don’t support the Red Cross because they don’t support the Boy Scouts, does that make me evil too? If something would happen, yes I would gear up and assist!

For Rush hammering people, I have listened enough to know, he doesn’t cut everyone slack. Who do I like on the Radio the most, Neal Boortz, Glenn Beck and trusted Sir Michael Savage! For Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh, when it comes to exposing the real problem with our War, I’ve been told by their call screener what I have to say is cannot be said, but for Sir Michael Savage? LOOK OUT! He took my call gladly, not only he allowed me to say what I wanted to say, “HE DROVE IT HOME AND SHOVED IT DOWN THEIR THROATS!”

BOB81 when my wonderful Wife and I feel on the verge of getting into a fight, we stop and look at each other and I’ll say it to you, HI!!, HOW ARE YOU!!!

73’sw Sir Bob81 and by the way, I think you and Mike the king of Sand Baggers make good book ends, LOL!

As a teenager, all I can say is that it's pretty funny watching grown men fight and argue over Rush Limbaugh. (I also think it's hilarious when they try to be cool and and start typing LOL everywhere, but maybe I'm just easily amused.) =D

im 19 and in a college sociology class right know and my professor explained it pretty easy rush thrives on his judgements of people and the hell in a hand basket scare tactic many politicians use.
I personally think its even more hilarious that he is tied to PETA, man they are a big cult of opinionated morons

Limbaugh proved a long time ago that he is in show business to make as much money as possible. No one should be surprised that he sold his services so cheaply. Although he is sometimes a whacky funny entertainer, he is also a pathological liar. Furthermore, he has no respect for our elected government officials and is insidiously enhancing his career by playing on the fears of gun owners and bible thumpers.

I think this is a little overdrawn. Everyone says that HSUS is "hiding in plain site" so for all we know they could have payed rush to do those PSA's and told him they have left wing hunting views. And as for him beating out the president of PETA I dont think thats right. Thats an organization that directly talks about banning hunting they should be the villian in everyone's eyes

I dunno. Guess I'll go and drool over photos of Dr. Ball. Mebbe one day they'll get some shots of her snorkeling. Wish they would delete the photos of that ugly guy!

Hey Bella, because I drive a truck for a living I must park and sleep at truck stops. I’m sorry but I got to tell you, drivers would pay you to stay away from their trucks, no shit! Seen pretty ugly lot lizards but damn Bella do something with yourself!

I wonder how many readers actually read both pages of Tom's explanation. He hit it right on the nose with HSUS - they thrive on the public's ignorance. I'll just re-post something I left elsewhere on the site:

Rush really lost some credibility with this - figure of all people he would have done his homework before supporting the HSUS. And, if he did his homework and still supports them, then he is a villian to all sportsmen, no matter his political views.

There is no halfway with the HSUS. Any of you that think otherwise had better pull your head out of the sand and open your eyes. The HSUS is associated with PETA. While PETA is out there to be seen, the HSUS is the slimy underbelly, doing whatever they can, without morals or ethics, chipping away at our hunting, fishing, trapping, and animal husbandry rights. They have filed countless lawsuits against sportsmen's rights in virtually every state. They are well-funded and will stoop to any low to achieve their goals.

Their name alone misleads many people who think they are giving money to state Humane Societies. They are being investigated for this and for misappropriations of many millions of dollars meant for animal welfare after the hurricanes in New Orleans. They even started a scheme using a name that sounded like a pro-hunting organization, taking hunters's money and using it to support anti-hunting activities. It was brought out when people noticed that the people running the organization were also associated with HSUS.

Don't give them an inch, a red cent, or any trust, no matter what they do. They are intent and focused and funded to take away the lifestyles we hold dear.

Tom - it's disturbingly obvious that the outdoors magazines and sportsmen's organizations need to educate sportsmen and the public about HSUS and PETA. Hard to do when emotions get in the way ... which is what the HSUS and PETA count on. The USSA does a lot, but in the courts and through its membership . The NRA does some. But I would love to see public service announcements in all media telling the world what the HSUS and PETA are actually all about.

As a fishing/hunting liberal (yes, we do exist contrary to conservative belief) I'm pleased to be informed about the potential hidden agendas of the HSUS. I am on the other hand very aware of the problems stray dogs and cats create and the expense that is generated in their care when they're removed from city streets and dumped into a shelter. Dogs and cats should be spayed and neutered unless an owner has a legitimate reason for breeding; irresponsible pet owners should be held accountable and laws should be in place to help ensure that domesticated pets do not create problems within a community.
I applaud Limbaugh in his desire to support animal shelters and promote responsible pet ownership; he has a voice no doubt and I hope his actions help to shine a light on the unwanted and uncared for domestic pet problems so many communities face, but when it's all said and done... yeah,courtesy of Field & Stream's Tom McIntyre, he's still a big fat idiot. ;)

Sand Bagger are you on another Wal-Mart load or you haven't eaten? Sounds like both LOL!

Bella have you ever talked to a Russian via Amateur Radio? Most likely not! During my 4 years in Alaska, they knew my location and never did they ask me what I did. All they talked about was their flipping cat! You lack of knowing people and a place is really showing, LOL!

People talk about things in their life other can relate to. It’s too bad Bella you can only regurgitate what some other nut job has said.

Do I listen to Rush and Hannity? Just enough to know what’s going on in the world. Both do lake the back bone to tell the truth why both Vietnam and this War in the Middle East do have in common. As for sticking up for what is really right, they don’t even come close to Michal Savage and Neal Boortz and Glenn Beck come in both about second. One thing I do like about Rush and Hannity, they really become a burr under the saddle of the Left Wing Socialist Party!

I can trash anybody here with my PC and become a PC Rambo. What I say here, I’ll say it to anyone’s face, don’t need to hide! I can trash Rush, The President even you Bella but one thing I will give you, the ability to say it; It’s called the First Amendment!

We don’t say Happy Holidays here in Coopville!
So Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah Bella and if that goes against your grain, get over it!

Welcome to the United States, the Land of the Free and the Free to LEAVE!

Then stop Clay, you already stated how angry you are with F+S. I certainly don't want to read any more of your space wasting fascist ranting. Go hang out at a tea party and enjoy the "tea room trade".
And all you misguided repukes out there, It was Republicans who were confiscating guns after Katerina, Democrats have never confiscated guns! It ain't the Dems who are gonna steal your guns! It is the sold-out-to-the-global-multinational-corporations republicans. Why all this misguided loyalty to Murdock the Fascist. He has no interest in American freedom. He feeds you a line of half truth and you swallow it like a pickerel. Beck and Limburger are his obvious tools. You guys are sooo gullible.
So Clay, if F&S is such a liberal rag now why don't you go post somewhere where your specious comments will be appreciated. Walk your talk Clay and take a walk!
And Clay I AM a veteran, I earned my rights in uniform. You don't like "Liberal America", You go away. I'm staying and I hold the high ground.

And one more thing Bella, what have you done for the Veterans except whining!

Want to see a Liberal do a melt down, challenge them!

Rush is right!

Bella

Who's in charge of California? Look at what your Liberal ways have divested that State and now New York!

“It is my right to be uncommon...if I can; I seek opportunity...not security. I do not wish to be a kept citizen, humbled and dulled by having the state look after me. I want to take the calculated risk; to dream and to build, to fail and to succeed. I refuse to barter incentive for a dole. I prefer the challenges of life to the guaranteed existence; the thrill of fulfillment to the stole calm of utopia. I will not trade freedom for beneficence nor my dignity for a handout. I will never cower before any master nor bend to any threat. It is my heritage to stand erect, proud, and unafraid; to think and act for myself; enjoy the benefits of my creations and to face the world boldly and say, This I have done, and this is what it means to be an American.”
-Dean Alfrange

Wyatt Earp - I'm a pretty easy-going guy, so I'm not offended, but all the same I would appreciate it if you could perhaps drop the condescending attitude, please? (Btw, it's "you're easily amused", not "your easily amused". As a tip.)

Clay I'm glad you are donating meat to the hungry, that is a liberal and generous act.
FDR was a democrat, he ended prohibition and got us out of the depression. Social Security has allowed millions of retired Americans to have a little to live on after they are past working.
JFK is still revered by most Americans, we can thank him for setting us on the path to the moon (one of the greatest achievements of modern man) even if he almost destroyed the world in the Cuban missile crisis. LBJ made civil rights a federal issue.
You may not like Carter, but he was my Commander in Chief, and I'd still follow him today. He has done so much good work for ordinary folks with Habitat for humanity and the Carter Center he would deserve a Nobel even if he didn't already have one.
There that is some of the good a few democratic leaders have brought us.
Why do you think I am not as hard working and interested in self sufficiency as you? We don't raise the sheep and goats and all the other critters to be a petting zoo, we eat em all! I don't know where you get this need to belittle and mischaricterize others. Liberals are the majority, many liberal's(including Vice president Biden) own handguns, work hard and are perhaps more loyal and more patriotic than than you. After all when the last bunch of neocon crooks was in power we liberals bided our time and regrouped so we could restore majority rule. Democracy worked and President Obama was elected by both the popular and the electoral vote. When I think of how people who dissed Bush were treated and contrast how people like Rush and Beck get treated (despite their sedition) these days it just shows the difference between the two. Bush?Cheney was secretive, petty and cronyistic. They got us into two wars and crashed the economy while sponsoring the enrichment of the corporate class at the expense of the middle. Perhaps Obama/Biden hasn't been as transparent as some might wish, but they are like windows compaired to their predicessors. Bush suspended Habias Corpus (breaking his oath to the constitution), Obama has restored it. Obama's administration hasn't had a Katerina yet, but during that disaster it was Republicans in charge of the mess anbd Republicans who ordered the confiscation of the arms of private citizens in the disaster area. Obama has vowed not to interfere with our sporting traditions while Bush/Cheney handed thousands of acres of public lands over to private interests. They just didn't care when push came to shove. Your cretinous attempt to blame the worlds troubles on "liberals" are as specious as they are offensive.

Bella- Where in world do you get your information from anyway? I really want to know. Really, just respond and tell me where you heard that "It was Republicans who were confiscating guns after Katerina, Democrats have never confiscated guns! It ain't the Dems who are gonna steal your guns! It is the sold-out-to-the-global-multinational-corporations republicans."
I'll bet you do listen to liberal talk shows and your main stream media nightly news.

dukkillr- I told you not to get your feathers ruffled. I was only agreeing with your own comment. Thanks for correcting my grammar, what was I thinking. Yuo better go check evryones' grammar as I've seen some mistakes but don't give it much thought as the point got across. Boy, your texting must get you riled up since it not at all proper to the English language. (Just kidding.)
Tset Yuor Raednig Cmporhesinon-
Aaoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Wyatt Earp

Never thought of dat!

Bella does not have a clue or better yet is setting back laughing her butt off!

Who was in charge during the Katerina disaster. Republicans. Guns were confiscated by the national guard in NOLA on the order of FEMA which was lead by "Heckofajob" Brownie, who was appointed by Dubya.
Democrats had nothing to do with that mess other than being victimized by being locked up without charges in those barbwire surrounded refugee pens.
If Navy Seals are up on charges for mistreating a prisoner it is under the UCMJ, not by your liberal fantasy. We are supposed to be the GOOD guys, we do not mistreat prisoners because it is just wrong and because it is agin the Geneva Convention (to which we are signatories). After all if you have somebody in custody, you have them. What is the point of screwing up possibilities of prosecution by torturing the accused? Torture doesn't work anyway, the information acquired is unreliable because a human will say any damn thing to please a torturer and stop the pain. If Seals broke regs, then they must answer for it. Being Seals means they have more rules to follow than you and I, not that they get to run wild. They are Seals, not MS13!
What have Democrats done for Veterans? How about the GI Bill?
I am both a liberal and a conservative. I believe in Liberty and in Conservation. I feel liberty is under threat in this country, when we are now imprisoning a larger percentage of our population than any other nation! The american gulag contradicts our founding principles of freedom yet more and more private for profit prisons get built. All because corporate amerika discovered the notion that one can finagle a contract to imprison people and get paid for it, then get paid again by forcing the zeks to work for little or no compensation. Eventually if this goes on we will wind up with three kinds of Amerikans, Zeks, Screws and Masters. That half of one percent who already control 85% of the nations assets are the Masters (of course, and it ain't you neither, you ain't got enough money) I can tell all you rush lovers are lining up to be the screws. But it wouln't be America, the one I served in uniform, it will be the diseased corpse of amerika and the time we are living in now will be remembered wistfully as the good old days.
I'm never quite certain what kind of america "conservatives" actually want. Do they actually want an underprivileged underclass everywhere, with homeless sick people starving on every streetcorner? Do you guys want even bigger prisons to put all the other people you just don't like in? Are the wars big enough for you? All you guys seem to love Walmart, do you have enough Chinese made pieces of plastic junk? Are you all looking forward to corporate serfdom? Are you overjoyed to know that the "health" insurance you will soon be forced to purchase from private for profit corporations will only absorb a third of your gross income? Will you still be able to afford to live in the trailer park? When you get sick (because the local chemical company tainted the groundwater) and your kids are turning into hermaphrodites because of the growth hormones in the milk and hamburger you feed them, will you thank Rush and Beck then?

Wyatt - Thanks for the compliment. I actually was taught all that stuff in school (I'm homeschooled so I was able to take all of my middle school and high school courses out a conservative academy in Florida.) And I'm also the president of our local chapter of Teenage Republicans, so that helped too. =)

One point of clarification: my apologies for the mixup, the grammar remark was a botched joke (I said "don't be condescending", and then I remarked about your grammar in a condescending way...sorry, it was an attempt at a modified pun. My bad, maybe I joke a little too much. =D) Anyway, no offense taken, no feathers ruffled, I was just kidding.

hahaha very funny about the total reading comprehension thing. I've actually seen a counter study done showing that it only works if you stay with the letters in the middle while mixing them up (Example: you can read "Tset" as test, but if it was "Tqrt" the problem would be much harder.) Idk, I'm anything but dogmatic on the topic but I thought that was interesting.

and, can you believe it, my girlfriend and I text 24/7 and we actually use a semblance of modern grammar! (She's a homeschooler too, so maybe that's why.)

But anyway, thanks again for the compliment. =)

My fault, I meant to say that "Americans are NOT entitled to success, they are entitled to equal opportunity..."

dukillr- The more I read your stuff the more I like you. You are a true american conservative. By the way, you were just describing liberals on your last comment to Bella. Your comment of "opponent reverts to personal attacks, that is another indicator of desperation" is what liberals do constantly.
I can't spend alot of time here because I'm busy right now and I see more postings I haven't read. I have things I wanted to touch on but you have done some of it for me, YOU GO BOY. Your doing a great job of giving liberals lessons. When you're 35, run for president. You got my vote. More later.

Bella, you’re getting more ignorant with every key stroke!
I’m not going into ant detail, but seriously, the more you open your mouth the more I find you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about by regurgitating someone else’s talking points.

Katrina, the Federal Government must be officially requested by the State to assist, not the other way around.
Geneva Convention, only applies to Combatants in UNIFORM! Bella, you do know what a uniform is, it’s not a teddy or a pair of PJ’s OK!
Assault and UCMJ, so the fella got punched for being combative or got beaten up by the Local Government. Sucker better be glad he is still alive! This is nothing more than PC stunt!!
Cuban Missile Crisis, it’s obvious you don’t have a clue here! Besides, what do you know about ICBM’s anyhow Bella, I grew up with them, TITAN I and II! I know how to launch one with one size “D” battery, do you!
Cuban Missile Crisis was actually good thing; it proved both sides didn’t want war. I bet you don’t know the Soviets were watching and NORAD watching a missile launch at the same time! Cool heads prevailed!
As for Jimmy the PEANUT CARTER, he actually started all this crap that is going on now. I know, you’re to ignorant to understand yet alone history of!
Bottom Line Bella
Before you start spewing you Liberal crap you better dig into the history and laws that apply to what you wailing about!

Vietnam, I know you’re going to say that next; the United States was within 3 months of winning Vietnam until Walter Cronkite trying to score ratings opened his mouth saying the United States was losing. The fact of the matter Bella, there is no Army on this earth can beat the US Military. The only way is on US soil and congratulations Bella for being on the other side! Does the word “treason“mean anything to you! The 1st Amendment doesn’t allow you to yell fire in a Movie House or allows you to give aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States Bella!

One more thing Bella

Oh and show me just how mature you all are by calling me more names?

If you’re going to take on a Veteran, we fight to WIN!!!

You say you’re a Veteran? Veteran of what!

Show some backbone Bella and stop whining!!

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

Wyatt Earp

Don't waste your time, either Bella is jerking our chain or just flat out whatever

Dukkller is a prime example of why some people shouldn't homeschool their kids. We homeschooled our daughter but not so she could be taught revisionist history, like the insane notion that FDR prolonged the depression. Hey they put FDR on the Dime for a reason. Somehow dukkller managed to miss absorbing basic human decency. Point one. We do not toreture because we are the good guys, and good guys don't do that. Period. When you start doing evil things like torturing people thgen You become the bad guy. Maybe you think we should be the bad guys...Psychology teaches that if you want something useful out of somebody, you don't break him, you co-opt him.
I am also amazed that you deny the existance of a vast and growing underclass, you must be so sheltered not to have heard about the huge tent cities and the hundreds of thousands of people who are now homeless. The number one reason for mortgage default and foreclosure is medical bankruptcy these days, It could happen to you too.
Of course you likely will claim that all those people who lost their houses to the banks were all to blame for their own predicaments obviously they are all liberals too.
You can blame the problems of the world on "liberalism" but it is only putting blinders on yourself as blame seeking doesn't solve problems. Blaming other people never solves problems, solving problems solves problems. Blaming the innocent merely allows the problems to get bigger and bigger until they swallow you up. It is easy to blame others, especially if one isn't interested in solving problems. But people who forget history (or revise it to make their current favorites look better) are doomed to repeat it.
Are you middle class? Do you deny that the middle class is being squeezed downward? Do you blame all the unfortunate persons who already lost their jobs and homes or do you think someone else is responsible? It isn't gonna be liberals, because liberal families are taking the hit too. but for all you "cons" out there white is black and black is white anyway. You can scapegoat the liberals all you want, but it wouln't solve anything, it will only delay any actual solution.
So when Rush says Global warming is a crock, fine do nothing. Go yell at liberals if it makes you happy. But the mercury will still rise, as will the oceans as the glaciers melt.
So when Rush tells you to donate to HSUS, give him lots of money, PETA will be calling you next (after all Rush loves his kitty!)
And when Rush tells you Obama is going to personally take all your guns away, well you better go dig that bunker and buy up every round of any caliber possible. Use your credit card, that's what Bank Of Amerika wants you to do (you wouln't mind the lien on your property). Jesus is coming and you'll never have to pay the debt! Besides Jesus wants you to have all those guns so you can go kill anybody who looks at you sideways!

I have to go now but I see Bella was spewing at the mouth again ( didn't cover all the mess she spewed before, just more to deal with.) Be back soon. P.S. Clay,I have to spend alittle time trying to straight out our liberal that spews. Dukkillr- You keep giving those lessons as you are clearly well educated, more so than public school students. Bella is just foaming at the mouth. She truly knows but can't admit she is wrong.

Wyatt - Excellent points about George Soros and HSUS. Thanks for your vote - if I ever run for president then I will definitely take you up on it. Also, great point about the voting records: voting records truly define how a politician really feels on an issue. (Unless they are like Barack Obama and just vote "present" to avoid having to make a decision.) If a politician says he is pro-gun, and then votes anti-gun, he is an anti-gun politician. Words are meaningless compared to actions.

Bella- Ididn't give definitions of liberal and liberty, sorry for not giving them to you. (As you recall, I said they mean the opposite of each other.) Here they are Liberal- an ideology with similar views on civil liberties and personal freedom issues but now supporting a much stronger role for government in regulating and manipulating the private economy and providing public support for the economically and socially disadvantaged, though still stopping well short of full socialism.
Liberty- 1 : the quality or state of being free: a : the power to do as one pleases b : freedom from physical restraint c : freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d : the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges : the power of choice

As you see, different meanings.

Those rebate programs-
Cash for Clunkers - Cash for Clinkers (Kitchen Appliances)
Cash for Chaulkers (Insulating homes)
(Now Bella, lets see if you can grasp this.) The government DOES NOT have money, they depend on us for the money they spend, so all of these programs are paid for by all of us tax payers. This is whay every time Dems occupy the white House, they print more money (when there are too many dollars floating out there, the buck isn't worth as much), and tax us more to pay for all the money they spend. Then when Republicans occupy the White House, the spending slows down and our taxes are lowered.

JUST FOR FUN

Here are some more programs from the Dems-
Cash for cimputers ( Rebates for updating old computers) But then the libs realized that MORE people would be able to keep up with what their doing in Washington Canceled before it started.
Cash for Cish- For every twenty dollar bill you turn in ,they will give you one dollar back. But the libs realized that they are doing this already, called TAXES. They also remembered that our taxes are soon to be going up. Canceled before started.

Thomas- How can you have Obama a Hero and a Villian in the same article. I agree with"Notbuyingyourmag."
He says:

I was waiting for your explanation for making Rush villain of the year and it sounds more like back tracking than a convincing argument. Don't try to tell me this isn't a political or personal attack on Mr. Limbaugh, you insult your reader's intelligences by doing so. If the HSUS is so dangerous make them the villain not a consistent supporter of sportsmen. My subscription is up this month and I will not be renewing.

Badger Hunter - people don't "feel they have to walk lockstep with the conservatives b/c they hunt and fish". The simple fact is that the majority of hunters and fishermen are conservatives. PETA is a liberal organization, HSUS is a liberal organization, the Brady Campaign is a liberal organization, the VPI is a liberal organization...there is not a single anti-hunting or anti-gun group out there that is made up of conservatives. Every single one is liberal.

Regardless of how often you agree with Rush, the question at hand is whether his doing two ads for HSUS was enough to make him villain of year. I'm not a huge Rush supporter, but even I can see that it's pretty clear that making him villain of the year was overkill. He was a villain, yes, but definitely not the worst one out there.

Bob81 - here's what I'm saying: the Navy SEALS were dispatched on a mission to capture a noted Taliban leader. They found him and had to immediately subdue him and get him out of there before they were discovered. He resisted, of course, and during the ensuing struggle one of the SEALS punched him in the face. This was not torture. If they had brought him back to base, tied him up, and then started punching him, that would have been classified as torture. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Getting punched during a fight is not torture; getting held down and punched after the fight is torture.

The Navy SEALS punched him once during the fight. They did not punch him because they were mad or because they were trying to solicit information, they punched him because they were in a war zone and quickly subduing him was necessary to their mission. This was not torture.

I don't disagree with that, just your blanket statement that "punching is not torture".

For the record, I do disagree with the waterboarding comment. No less an authority on such things as John McCain agrees with me:

"It's unacceptable. It's unacceptable. One is too much. Waterboarding is torture, period. I can ensure you that once enough physical pain is inflicted on someone, they will tell that interrogator whatever they think they want to hear. And most importantly, it serves as a great propaganda tool for those who recruit people to fight against us."

John McCain,
April, 2009

dukllr,
I'm also not sure what your earlier point was regarding the fact that most animal rights groups are liberal orgs.

It would be easy to point out that most white supremacist groups are conservative. I doubt you would agree this is reason to always vote Democrat.

Dukkillr, Bob81, not dukllr. Gosh, what is it with my user name?

Here's my point about anti-hunting groups: Badger Hunter questioned why all the hunters felt the need to act conservative. My point was that they weren't acting conservative, they were conservative! Case in point, anti-hunting groups: all of them are liberal. In other words, very rarely do you come across a dyed-in-the-wool liberal who also hunts, which is why the bulk of hunters are conservative.

White supremacist groups have nothing to do with my statement, I'm not trying to convince people to vote Republican, I was just explaining why almost all hunters are also conservatives. I disagree with your statement anyway: the NAZIs were the national socialist party of Germany. Hardly conservative. The KKK isn't conservative either; in fact, many KKK members are Southern good 'ol boys who have voted Democrat all their lives. Your allegation is defamatory and incorrect.

Lol! The trouble with your user name is it is missing random letters. I'm calling you "Duck" from now on.

If you truly believe there are almost no liberal hunters, you need to venture outside your circle of acquaintences. It's certainly not the majority, but I think you might be surprised at the number of liberal hunters and fisherman out there.

About my "defamatory" statement: "Chill out kid". My post was just pointing out the ridiculousness of determining your political party based on the fringe of that party.

Precisely. Which is why we must default to logic. By your same argument, John McCain isn't a terrorist and he doesn't have the mindset of a terrorist, so we can't trust him either.

John McCain is biased. He was once horribly tortured by his captors, so he is against anything that remotely smacks of torture. His prior experiences cloud his present judgement.

I didn't ask if you could condone torture for 9/11, I asked about waterboarding. Even if we were torturing terrorists, it's still allowed under Geneva because the insurgents are NOT IN UNIFORM. I don't have a problem with the Geneva Convention at all. According to the Geneva Conventions, waterboarding terrorists is perfectly acceptable, whether or not it is considered torture.

Gramps - OK, sure. I'm fine with that.

Where were we? Oh, yeah - Rush and HSUS. Some responses by other organizations:

http://www.ussportsmen.org/Page.aspx?pid=1490&storyid2905=54&ncs2905=3

http://www.ussportsmen.org/Rush

That's at least 35 organizations. Still question why supporting the HSUS is the wrong thing for sportsmen to do? Tom is about s right as right can be on this.

Thanks for all the support, Wyatt, I really appreciate it.

Sub-prime loans! Awesome point! The problem here really goes back to Bill Clinton when he forced - forced - the banks to give out loans to people who had no earthly way of affording them. (He even mandated that welfare checks be considered a source of income so that welfare recipients could take out loans on houses. Does anyone else see the problem here?). Actually, I'm going to go a bit deeper here and look into the wave economics of the matter: every economy goes up and down. Period. It's the way economies work. The upturns get new businesses started, the downturns weed out the financially unstable ones. This is simple economics. Anyway, the liberals came up with the bright idea of preventing economic downturns from ever happening again (tip: if you suddenly figure out how to beat a proven economic law, I would double-check, triple-check, and quadruple check your calculations before proceeding) so, that is the reason they mandated these sub-prime mortgages and forced banks to lend money to whoever asked for it. They figured that if everyone had easy credit, everyone would just keep buying and buying and buying and the markets would always go up! Well, this bright idea naturally created a housing bubble (and a credit bubble and countless other bubbles), all in a vain attempt to keep the economy always going up. You don't have enough money to buy a house? We can fix that by forcing banks to give you a loan. You don't have enough money to pay the mortgage? We can fix that one too - the housing market is going up, so we'll mandate that the banks give you another loan and then you can buy another house, wait for the prices to go up even higher, and then sell it and pay off both mortgages with the proceeds. (Obviously politicians aren't economists.) Sooo, what ends up happening is that some smart people realize that "hey, one of these days the bubble is going to collapse", so they naturally sell off their houses and stocks, and then other people panic and start selling off, and the next thing you know the housing market has collapsed and you are stuck with two unsellable houses and two unpayable mortgages. Welcome to 2009 and the year of foreclosures, courtesy of your friendly, all-wise liberals! =D

Granny - to start off with, waterboarding isn't torture. No one has proven me wrong on that point yet. Secondly, yes there are some times in which torture is acceptable. I'll ask you the same question I asked Bob81: if you could have saved the lives of 3000 Americans at 9/11 by torturing one terrorist, would you have done so? Or would you have let them die so that you could hold the "moral" high ground?

The facts remain, however, that the Navy SEALS were not torturing their prisoner, and the US Government does not torture by waterboarding (which makes this whole torture-debate a little irrelevant, but I'm totally fine with debating it if you want to do so).

As far as "you defacto become the bad guy and lose any moral standing", this is transparently false. Let's say that the CIA had been given a captive insurgent, and they tied him up and punched him several times. Are they equally bad as the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan who blow up helpless women and children without mercy? No, of course not. Your argument falls apart.

You keep saying that we "imprison a bigger percentage of our population that other countries". Can we see some evidence here? Can you give us hard numbers to work with? Which countries are these "other countries"? If you are referencing England or France or any of those European countries that releases the greater majority of their criminals on parole before they even make it to jail, then I don't really see your point. There is reason that the US imprisons more of its population, and there is a reason that the US has a much lower crime rate than these other countries.

Liberals are not about liberty, liberals are about power. (As Wyatt pointed out, liberal is not the same word as liberty.) It's the liberals who always want more regulation and it's the conservatives who always want less! Duh!
How can I love liberty when I would deprive others of it? It's simple: if a person commits a crime worthy of prison time, they have forfeited their liberty. Releasing everyone from prison in the name of liberty is yet another utopian, liberal fantasy...

Bella

If making someone talk without physical injury to save lives, I’m for it. It’s pathetic how you say pushing ones religion on someone is wrong, yet you give those who are blowing innocent people a pass in the name of God. You said you had a Daughter, did you let her do anything she wanted, go wherever she wanted and lie? What did you do or would you do especially when she told you to F--- OFF! So you spank a child, so we spanked a terrorist and saved countless lives and you stopped her bad behavior and saved the child so what’s the difference Bella!

In Russia, a small border town was plagued daily by terrorists and they stopped it. Cruel? You bet it’s cruel, but they put a screeching stop to the bombings and shootings when the cutoff the head of the leader and sent it back to their parents. They got the message!

You’re dealing with a group of people who do not see or think the way we do. Hate is the way of life and life is hate! When I was in Egypt, an Egyptian Officer told me if you gave everyone what they wanted including wiping Israel off the map, would there be peace? NO! They would fight amongst themselves!!

As for you being a Veteran, say what you want Bella remember it’s called the 1st Amendment. A lot of Veterans died for that so you can give aid and comfort to the enemy and piss on the Country they died for and you can do that now thanks to your Liberal Friends and so much joy is it to do so right Bella! We/US Veterans call it treason!

“The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it.” -John Hay, 1872

Here is a scenario,

Bella Daughter has been kidnapped by a know child molester and murderer. Agents have proof of the suspect purchased materials and found evidence of pressure gauges and empty oxygen bottles in the trunk of the vehicle driven by the suspect. Other information just discovered by another Suspect that the Girl has 8 hours to live before oxygen to the hidden location runs out. The Prime Suspect has been caught by Authorities and 3 hours is now remaining and the clock is ticking!

What say you?

I just received my second F&S magazine as I am a new subscriber, though only my second it might also be one of my last.

May you could rename your magazine Field & Gun Confiscation.

Whoever the negative ratings fanatic is, either make an argument or cut it out!

Duck,
I'm sticking to my promise to not contribute (directly anyways) to this terribly off-topic thread, but as someone intimately familiar with the commercial real estate finance industry, I read your analysis of the contributing factors of the real estate industry to the global recession with great interest. :)I had no idea we could blame the whole thing on Clinton and poor people!! I would like to hear your thoughts on how the following factors did or did not contribute:

-CMBS's
-The role of credit rating agencies in evaluating real estate-backed investments
-Admitted fraud and corruption at the country's largest lenders such as countrywide
-Overleveraged speculative development, particularly in the southwest and west coast
-The popularization of new and untested financial instruments including ARM's and NINA loans
-Untested financial metrics and formulas used to measure risk at the country's largest financial firms and investment banks
-Collusion between lenders and appraisers resulting in over-inflated property values

Thanks! I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

For some clarification :) :

-Did CMBS's (Commercial Mortgage Backed Securities) contribute to the US real estate bubble in any way? (Hint: the answer has something to do with changes in thier popularity over time as well as the way they are evaluated.)

-Not sure what your question is regarding real estate investments and real estate-backed investment vehicles (Since real estate backed investments are a type of real estate investment.)

-Overleveraged spec development: Did the amount of debt that spec developers were carrying leading up to the real estate crash have anything to do with the severity of the recession?

-Please clarify your point about personal responsibility and whether or not it applies to banks, developers and investment firms.

You are running about a D - on your answers so far, so better make the last ones good! ;)

More on ARM's and NINA loans (NINA means No Income/No Asset, for those reading who don't know). If you decide to take on an ARM, and it ends up that you can't afford it, that's your fault. As far as NINA loans go, if you go for a loan and are willing to pay the higher interest rate because you don't have or don't want to provide any financial information, then you most likely haven't mastered the slightest degree of economics whatsoever.

The bottom line is this: if you are going to take out a loan, make sure you can afford it. If everyone had done this, we wouldn't be in the financial state that we are. Of course, my original point was that the Clinton adminstration worsened matters by encouraging poor economic behavior...

GREAT LESSONS dukkillr- I just hope they read it and heed it. Sorry that I can't stay long. I got home late and to much to catch up on but I saw a comment from another lib-
Bob81 that would be you. The only reason why you're giving dukkillr a D- is because you are a liberal and IT IS ONLY AN OPINION, YOURS. dukkillr hasn't been wrong yet in any of his lessons to you liberals. The problem wih you guys is you are the common sense genes. I'm sure that you all have them but lost them because you libs are stuck in a perpetual quagmire and don't know which way is up.
Want me to prove it?
You can't even figure out dukkillrs' user name. You said that the trouble with his name is it's missing random letters. I'll help you out- it's real easy- one consonant and one vowel. They are c and e!! spells (I feel like I'm teaching a fourth grader again.) duckkiller.

I HAVE TO PROOF READ MORE- When I clicked on post comment, I read part of my comment while I waited - "The problem wih you guys is you are the common sense genes." It was suppose to be- The problem with you guys is you don't have any common sense genes.
I hit the escape key and my posting wasn't on the page. Had to type it over and the SECOND ONE IS CORRECT.
(I posted this so the liberals don't start to think they have common sense.) If only they did, we could get this country back to it's greatness and be rid of high taxes, the UN, and the anigunnrs. (Bob81- the last word is two words put together, two letters are missing. One consonant and one vowel. The letters t, and e !!! Spells anti gunners.

Oh and I don't object to putting theives and murderers in jail. but most of the people in jail are not there for that. We should only imprison those who pose a direct danger to society. We have many other means of having nonviolent offenders give restitution to society and we should use them. Presently we are in the "if you like your hammer, every job requires nails" situation. Drug abuse is a medical problem and should be treated as such and that is what accounts for most of the people in prison. The misbegotten so-called "war on drugs" which turned into a war on the American people and which we can no longer afford. But all you "cons" out there have such low self esteem that you need to have people to look down on or the world would not have enough Prozac to cheer you up. I fear for my country, largely because of Fascists like you guys. And yes I am a veteran, USAF and I served in the ROK and I left with an honorable discharge back in 1979.
Go enlist Duckyboy, if your mama will let you! Get sent to the other side of the world and see how most humans live! I did, and It vastly improved my outlook on the world. Go, see how lucky we Americans are really. You'll likely come back a liberal once you've seen how most of the world lives...

Bella

You are a lost cause!

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
-Samuel Adams, speech at the Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.

Bella - I've never said that torture is good. What I am saying here is threefold: 1) torture is justifiable in some circumstances, 2) waterboarding is not torture, 3) what the Navy SEALS did was not torture. I believe we are all agreed on number 3, correct? At least, Bob81 agreed with me about the Navy SEALS, and I assume you do as well since you haven't mentioned anything since. Moving on to number 1: is torturing terrorists ever justifiable? My answer is yes, and here's why: to start off with, terrorists are not covered by the Geneva Convention because they are not in uniform, therefore by international law torturing terrorists is perfectly legal. Secondly, I'm not advocating torturing every single insurgent we capture, but if the military has a reasonable belief that by torturing a terrorist we may uncover valuable information that would save the lives of thousands of Americans, for instance, then it is perfectly justifiable and moral. If we could have prevented 9/11 by torturing a terrorist, I think none of us would (or should) have had a problem with that, correct? Finally, as far as waterboarding goes, it is precisely what you said: simulated drowning. Drowning a terrorist would be torture, pretending to drown him isn't. If you pretend to hit someone, is that torture? No. If you pretend to shoot someone, is that torture? No. If you pretend to drown someone, is that torture? No.

So, in recap, here's what we have: 1) under some circumstances, torture of a terrorist is justifiable. HOWEVER, 2) waterboarding isn't torture, so we don't have to worry about it anyway. And finally, 3) the Navy SEALS did not torture their prisoner, which was how this whole torture-argument got started in the first place.

Moving on to the poor and destitute: to start off with, cut out the religious slurs. It has absolutely no bearing on this debate, especially considering that not all conservatives are Christians. (Anyway, your theological knowledge is a bit muddled: the verse says "Blessed are the poor IN SPIRIT", and being "meek" does not mean being either poor or destitute.) Furthermore, I AM NOT BLAMING THE POOR FOR THE CURRENT FINANCIAL CRISIS. Do you understand me? I am blaming the liberals for encouraging poor financial behavior; as far as the poor go, I am not blaming them, but I am saying that they are responsible for whatever personal financial choices they may have made.

We're not rational? Excuse me, but you are the hysterical one who doesn't even know how to write proper sentences! YOU are the one calling names and making religious and racial slurs, not me. Whatever happened to the liberal love of "tolerance"? As everyone can see, I am the one trying to be polite here as I address your rantings, and you are the one who has flipped her lid. Get a hold of yourself.

The UN is useless, we both know that. (I know she was talking to you, Wyatt, but I'm just going to plug in a few thoughts if that's okay.) What has the UN done? Iran still has their nukes, North Korea still has their nukes, half the countries in the Middle East are still trying to develop their nukes...the UN has done nothing except make empty threats. The League of Nations couldn't keep us out of wars, and the UN can't either. Btw, we would survive because we have the weapons. Your beloved, socialist France would be gone in seconds.

Colonize space? Wow, you really are an extremist. (I feel almost like a parent trying to tell a young child that Santa doesn't exist.) It's not going to happen. Sure, we've landed a man on the moon...and that's about all we've done since. Oh, and spend billions of dollars on useless research looking for aliens. I forgot about that.

Inflicting pain and suffering...look, if by inflicting pain on one terrorist we could save the lives of American soldiers, I'm all for it. You would be too, if you actually supported the US military.

Is Wyatt an anarchist? No, obviously not. He's not the one here who's making wild accusations in barely legible sentences. Take a look at history, Bella: anarchists are always liberals screaming for "change". The French Revolution (they wanted to "spread the wealth around"), the Communist uprising (communal wealth for all), NAZI Germany (National Socialist Party. Need I say more?), the car-burning hippies (they were also screaming about "gulags", curiously enough)...every time, it's the liberals who are the anarchists.

Taxes - your numbers are off. That's what usually happens when you arbitrarily pick figures and try to pass them off as facts. Your analogy is also pretty screwed, I think even Bob81 would agree with me on that one. The government doesn't "give" financial assets, it's not the government's job to do so. Here's what happens in an economy: it's called the trickle-down economics. The wealthy spend their money on goods, which in turn enriches those who produce the goods. Those who produce the goods spend their money on supplies, which enriches those who provide the supplies, and so on. What the government tries to do is take money from the rich and give it to the producers and suppliers as a free handout, which benefits no one. When the wealthy have less money, they spend less, which means that the class under them has less money so they also spend less, and so on. Government intervention in economics never works; it's always best to let the free market decide. Those who are diligent will rise to the top, those who aren't diligent will not rise to the top. It's simple: if you don't earn it, you don't have it. Government handouts do nothing productive.

We hate liberals? I don't hate them; I disagree with them, I think they are misled and confused, but I don't hate them. Out of all of us, you are the one who hates the most. Just read some of your posts, it's pretty clear.

I don't get your point about swallowing the whole conservative agenda or the whole liberal agenda.

How can we support freedom if we deny it to terrorists? Uhh...should I even have to explain this one? Moving on to your point regarding torture (you do realize that you said America is like China or Russia because we waterboard, right?), the majority of Americans are fine with waterboarding terrorists. It's not torture, and even if it was, it would be justifiable. A terrorist is a TERRORIST! According to the Geneva Conventions, torturing a terrorist is perfectly ok. Did you understand what that means? By international law, torturing a terrorist is morally justifiable!

Morals and ethics. You know, Bella, it's pretty sad that an adult would stoop to making personal insults to a teenager just because she's losing an argument. It says something about your personal character, or lack thereof. I'm more articulate than you are, I'm more logical than you are, and, frankly, I'm winning this debate. Go look back at the previous posts: you started out making a lot of arguments, I refuted them all, and you never addressed them again. (What ever happened to the wonderful liberal presidents, for instance?) In debate this is called "dropping the argument"; in layman's terms, it means that if you don't address it, you have conceded that your opponent is correct. The only arguments that you have kept addressing are torture and a few things concerning the economy.

In other words, grow up and stop making this personal. Address the ARGUMENTS and stop making ad hominem attacks. Also, concerning the Aryan Brotherhood - the NAZI's were socialist liberals, and I'm Hispanic anyway. I didn't realize that liberals were such racists against Hispanics, but I guess I was wrong. Can't you make decent arguments against my arguments? Why do you constantly have to fill up your posts with personal attacks?

Wyatt - Thank you for explaining my name! At last, Bella and Bob81 should be able to spell it correctly!

It's interesting about the current real estate crisis how Capital Hill told all the lenders to loan money to those who couldn't afford it.

Lets see, taking a page out of the Senator Ted Kennedy's book, you create a crises then later on knowing it was flawed to begin with you come back with the Government only can fix it!

Just like the Clinton Administration allowing a certain level of death and carnage for there antigun agenda!

Bella- Again, you don't make any sense at all and you have it butt backwards. You do alot of reversing of terms. When you say liberal, you mean conservative. When you say conservative' you mean liberal. I'm not even going to go through everything you said because as usual you are not getting what we all are telling you. Maybe because you don't read the postings like the dems not reading the 2000 word bill they are trying to pass. By the way it is unconstitutional to pass a bill that supports socialist medicine. We can type until our finger tips are blue and you still wouldn't get it. I will not waste my time on all of it but will highlight some of the best of your nonsense.

"Blame everything on this fiction in your heads called liberalism (which has nothing to do with liberalism" (Read your words here Bella, You just called your party fictional and I won't comment on what is in parenthesis because I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you made a mistake. YOU CALL US IRRATIONAL?) " We built the UN! it is our creation! World peace is a good think, you want another global war?" (The United States didn't build the UN. Yes it headquartered in New York but that's it. I'll bet you don't even know what UN means or what they stand for. Certainly not for the United States. They actually hate and despise America.) " Democratic world government is essential if we ever intend to colonize space." (This part makes no sense at all. I do have a question about the Democratic world government. Do you really support a world government?)
"Please explain how "getting rid of high taxes" brings America back to greatness." (It's called prosperity, Allowing the free market to work. ) "You hate liberals soo much, is this why you need so many guns? So you can murder those you disagree with?" ( I never said I hated liberals. I just disagree with the ideology of liberals. Who said anything about so many guns. I said I believe in the second amendment and I talked about voting the anti gun politicians out of office. If guns murder, then all of mine are defective.) "I believe firmly in the 2nd amendment," (If you believe in the second amendment, why do you support an administration (Obama and his cronies.) that is clearly against it?)

I forgot to add about murders. The number of murders for last year was around 7,000 (That, I believe is all murders, guns,knives,strangulations,etc,etc...) The number of deaths in automobile accidents last year was over 32,000. So why don't they outlaw automobiles? The answer is simple- They know all of this, they use the murder thing as smoke screen for the real agenda. It's called tyranny. Just like the smoke screen of global warming. Junk Science.

HOLD THE PRESSES- I reposted this to make it easier for some people to maybe understand it better. Better format.

dukkillr- I knew you had answered Bellas' posting but I waited until I answered hers, then I read yours.

Bella- Again, you don't make any sense at all and you have it butt backwards. You do alot of reversing of terms. When you say liberal, you mean conservative. When you say conservative' you mean liberal. I'm not even going to go through everything you said because as usual you are not getting what we all are telling you. Maybe because you don't read the postings like the dems not reading the 2000 word bill they are trying to pass. By the way it is unconstitutional to pass a bill that supports socialist medicine. We can type until our finger tips are blue and you still wouldn't get it. I will not waste my time on all of it but will highlight some of the best of your nonsense.

BELLA-"Blame everything on this fiction in your heads called liberalism (which has nothing to do with liberalism)"

WYATT- (Read your words here Bella, You just called your party fictional and I won't comment on what is in parenthesis because I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you made a mistake. YOU CALL US IRRATIONAL?)

BELLA- " We built the UN! it is our creation! World peace is a good think, you want another global war?"

WYATT- (The United States didn't build the UN. Yes it headquartered in New York but that's it. I'll bet you don't even know what UN means or what they stand for. Certainly not for the United States. They actually hate and despise America.) Thers so much about the UN you don't know. I've read about them. The UN should be disbanded and send them back to their countries.

BELLA-" Democratic world government is essential if we ever intend to colonize space."

WYATT- (This part makes no sense at all. I do have a question about the Democratic world government. Do you really support a world government? Really? Scarcy if you do.)

BELLA-."Please explain how "getting rid of high taxes" brings America back to greatness."

WYATT-(It's called prosperity, Allowing the free market to work. )

BELLA-"You hate liberals soo much, is this why you need so many guns? So you can murder those you disagree with?"

WYATT-( I never said I hated liberals. I just disagree with the ideology of liberals. Who said anything about so many guns. I said I believe in the second amendment and I talked about voting the anti gun politicians out of office. If guns murder, then all of mine are defective.)

BELLA- "I believe firmly in the 2nd amendment,"

WYATT- (If you believe in the second amendment, why do you support an administration (Obama and his cronies.) that is clearly against it?

Bella

Please explain to me the relationship between ROK and BFE?

I’ve been to both and the two are complete different worlds!

So tell me Bella, how can experience in ROK can make you authority on BFE?

ROK = Republic of Korea, where I served with the 8th TAC. I have no idea what you mean when you type BFE. You guys all live in some conservative fantasyland anyway, You misquote people and cut and paste things out of context. You don't engage in fair debate, You write extremely offensive things and get pissy when anybody calls you on them. You are manipulative and controlling and I pity your loved ones, if you have any. You worship an obese faithless shill for a multinational media conglomerate who advocates punishment for every drug addict but himself.

I don't engage in fair debate? Oh yeah, sure...you don't even know how to debate. I would like to point out to everyone involved that Bella has now dropped every single argument that we have been debating about, including torture and the economy.

Bella - I have never misquoted you, and I have never cut and pasted your quotes out of context. I challenge you to show me exactly where I have done these things. I challenge you to show me where I have not engaged in fair debate.

As for the rest of your last two posts, I'm not even going to respond. I'm a debater: I respond to arguments, not personal attacks.

Bella-PLEASE READ.(Try to comprehend what you read.) You say we call you names, I haven't seen it but look at all the name calling you just did. Pretty pathetic really. I call it spewing of the mouth. (Means- To pour forth.) Let me say that you really know how to spew. Look at you,saying we call you names. What to you call your rantings?
Clay and dukkillr are right.
You are totally lost, and dukkillr said "We're not rational? Excuse me, but you are the hysterical one who doesn't even know how to write proper sentences! YOU are the one calling names and making religious and racial slurs, not me. Whatever happened to the liberal love of "tolerance"? As everyone can see, I am the one trying to be polite here as I address your rantings, and you are the one who has flipped her lid. Get a hold of yourself." and
"In other words, grow up and stop making this personal. Address the ARGUMENTS and stop making ad hominem attacks."
Dukkillr has asked you to address the arguments, which you never do. I have asked you things and you ignore them completely. To me that shows that you don't want to debate anything but only spew like a liberal does. I haven't called you any names, as that is not my style, I will not stoop to that level.

Now Bella, I believe truly that you don't comprehend anything you are reading here. It would be useful if you tried.

More later-----

Here we go agin with more spewing. I'm only hit on the highlights.

Bella- .I think you guys are the morally deficient ones, sucking up endlessly to your corporate masters, lapping up the stinking leavings of an international oligarchy that cares nothing for your welfare. When so called conservatives stand in the way of prying healthcare out of the hands of immoral for profit so called Health insurance providers that are presently soaking American families for every dime they can squeeze while actively excluding the sick (with "preexisting conditions")! Why can't Americans have what Canada, France, Germany, Sweden and other countries have? No we have these parasites interfering with people and their doctors, just like we have these multinational agricultural corporations and multinational energy corporations who buy their way into politics and pay off both sides to preserve their interest. We need global governance to regulate and control the multinational corporations and keep them from preying on actual human beings.

Wyatt- There you go calling us names again.As far as your reference to corporations (The multitude of names you call them.) They are provide millions of jobs for Americans. Without these corporations, we wouldn't have any kind of economy we've had in the past. Besides, many people in these corporations are liberals. You make broad statements.Your reference to "international oligarchy" (Do you know what it means?) does not exist. if you like the medical system that these other countries have, move to one of them. Our health system is the best in the world. I won't dispute the higher prices but there are many causes of that, such as people not paying for medical expenses, too many test being run. If they would deport the illegals that use our welfare system, that would help the situation. There you go again with Global governance again. Scary stuff you believe in.

Bella- I understand that climate change deniers like Rush and his followers might not want to change the way they live, creating huge amounts of refuse, refusing to recycle, wasting food, fuel or other resources on their personal indulgence or convenience. After all conservatism means reluctance to accept change. I can understand why people are afraid of change and might react against it.

Wyatt- So let me see, you're saying that conservatives use huge amounts of refuse and refuse to recylce,wasting food, fuel or other resources on their personal indulgence or convenience and does that mean liberals do the opposite? Liberals are the green people? What kind of dictionary do you own? I already gave you the dictionary definition. (Another example that Bella doesnot read our postings.)Any way, you have made some very broad statements that are unfounded.

BFE definition: Bum Freak Egypt (polite form)

I have got to proof read more. First sentence-one extra is. Excuse all of my typos.

GONE HUNTING!

C"YA!

I have a couple of postings I want to do before I give you answers on my previous posting.

OUR GOVERNMENT SPENDING IN SECONDS

There are 1 million 1 millions in 1 trillion-

If dollars were seconds,look how big the numbers are!!-

1,036,800 seconds-
There are 1 million, 36 thousand, 800 seconds in 12 days.

31,536,000 seconds-
There are 31 million, 536 thousand seconds in 1 year.

1,000,006,560,000 seconds-
There are 1 trillion, 6 million, 560 thousand seconds in 31,715 years!!

And to think that our nations debt is 12 trillion dollars. Uncomprehendable to say the least.

Our 12 trillion dollar debt would be -

12,000,000,000,000 seconds-
12 trillion seconds in 380,580 years!!!

FIREARMS REFRESHER COURSE

1. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

2. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.

3. Colt: The original point and click interface.

4. Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.

5. If guns are outlawed, can we use swords?

6. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.

7. Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.

8. If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.

9. Those who trade liberty for security have neither.

10. The United States Constitution (c)1791. All Rights Reserved.

11. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

12. The Second Amendment is in place in case the politicians ignore the others.

13. 64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.

14. Guns only have two enemies; rust and politicians.

15. Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.

16. You don' t shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.

17. 911: Government sponsored Dial-a-Prayer.

18. Assault is a behavior, not a device.
19. Criminals love gun control; it makes their jobs safer.

20. If guns cause crime, then matches cause arson.

21. Only a government that is afraid of its citizens tries to control them.

22. You have only the rights you are willing to fight for.

23. Enforce the gun control laws we ALREADY have; don't make more.

24. When you remove the peoples' right to bear arms, you create slaves.

25. The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control.

IF YOU AGREE, PASS THIS "REFRESHER" ON TO TEN FREE CITIZENS.

Bella- Do you think you can read these definitions and comperhend what they mean? I hope so because you do have things messed up in your thinking. I'm only trying to help you out so you understand things clearly because clearly you don't.

Capitalism
A form of economic order characterized by private ownership of the means of production and the freedom of private owners to use, buy and sell their property or services on the market at voluntarily agreed prices and terms, with only minimal interference with such transactions by the state or other authoritative third parties.

Conservatism
A general preference for the existing order of society and an opposition to all efforts to bring about rapid or fundamental change in that order. Conservative ideologies characteristically strive to show that existing economic and political inequalities are well justified and that the existing order is about as close as is practically attainable to an ideal order. Conservative ideologies most often base their claims on the teachings of religion and traditional morality and tend to downplay the reliability of purely rational or deductive social theories propounded by secular philosophers, economists, and other social thinkers. The specific content of "conservatism" is highly variable across societies and over time, since the arguments necessary to defend the status quo depend upon what the status quo is in any particular country. Because American political and economic institutions were very heavily influenced by 18th and 19th century liberal thought and because America had essentially no experience of the kind of feudal and aristocratic institutions that persisted for so long in Europe, contemporary American conservatism's content includes a much stronger commitment to free markets, individual rights, and political democracy and much less attachment to hereditary aristocracy and state-support for a particular religion than is characteristic of contemporary European conservatism.

Socialism
A class of ideologies favoring an economic system in which all or most productive resources are the property of the government, in which the production and distribution of goods and services are administered primarily by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which any remaining private production and distribution (socialists differ on how much of this is tolerable) is heavily regulated by the government rather than by market processes. Both democratic and non-democratic socialists insist that the government they envision as running the economy must in principle be one that truly reflects the will of the masses of the population (or at least their "true" best interests), but of course they differ considerably in their ideas about what sorts of political institutions and practices are required to ensure this will be so.

Left-wing, leftist
General descriptive terms for any of several otherwise quite varied political ideologies (socialism, communism, social democracy, welfare statism, contemporary American LIBERALISM, some versions of anarchism, etc.) that join in denouncing the extent of economic and social inequality in the present order of society and advocate the adoption of vigorous public policies to reduce or eliminate these inequalities, usually through some combination of the following:

Reduction or elimination of legal protections for private property rights
Greater regulation (or complete expropriation) of private economic activity
Stringent limitations on the right to inherit wealth
Higher tax burdens on the rich and the middle-class, and/or the provision of more tax-supported government services and money payments to the poor.
In America, the term has a somewhat more derogatory flavor than in European usage.

Wyatt, I actually agree with your 25 points, I have always supported the 2nd amendment.
Clay, I was in 30 years ago, and you wanna get on my cae because I forget a silly ACRONYM?
I refuse to buy the whole neo-con package, why should I support anything that works against my self interest.
I'm all for capitalism, but multinational corporations are beyond capitalism and have evolved into something monstrous, without loyalty to anything but the Euro (it ain't the dollar any more. sorry)
America has been stripped of manufacturing capacity by people like Mitt Romney, whose Bain capital dismantled dozens of factories that made shoes, fabrics, tools and other things that aren't made in America anymore. Tell me how Mitt the twit is a liberal now...
The american middle class has it's back to the wall and Dubya did nothing but make it worse. It is private ownership of firearms and a strong middle class that preserve democracy and if the middle class goes down the guns are going soon after. But you cons don't give a dang about the middle class.
And no I don't take time to read every line..Clay reposts the same offensive insulting tract again and again. I am liberal in some of my attitudes and conservative in others and I see nothing wrong with such attitudes. I do see something wrong with you dudes getting on my case because I know a disgusting turd when I see one.
You guys aren't interested in the democratic system, you just want Your Way and you don't care how you get it. But that isn't the American way.

Here we go again, Only going to hit the highlights.

Bella-I'm all for capitalism

Wyatt- NOW YOUR FOR IT ? In all of your past postings you were against it, thought it was evil. The only reason your all for it now is you read the definition I posted.

Bella- The american middle class has it's back to the wall and Dubya did nothing but make it worse. It is private ownership of firearms and a strong middle class that preserve democracy and if the middle class goes down the guns are going soon after. But you cons don't give a dang about the middle class.

Wyatt- The first part makes no sense at all. As far as the comment "private ownership of firearms and a strong middle class.....guns are going soon after" I'll ask again Bella- Why do you support the most anti-gun adminstration we've ever had? As far as middle class, I am middle class, My income is less than $30,000 a year, I'm over 40. I come from a poor family. I'll bet you thought I was rich because I vote Republican. I vote this way because Democrats have become more socialist every year. Look at all their policies.

BellaYou guys aren't interested in the democratic system, you just want Your Way and you don't care how you get it. But that isn't the American way.

Wyatt- You just made an accusation that is unfounded.

Bella - to start off with, I'm going to address one of your ending lines that said "you guys aren't interested in the democratic system". Duh. That's why we're republicans, and that's why we support the Constitution. The Constitution guarantees to every state a "republican form of government". Not democratic, republican. Of course we aren't interested in the democratic way!

Moving on to the top of your post: how can you support the 2nd Amendment and Barack Obama at the same time? It's nonsensical; everyone knows he's anti-gun. Even his own supporters like Nancy Pelosi have said that.

As for your corporations, you are using an isolated circumstance. Yes, some of the larger corporations are owned by conservatives...and some are owned by liberals too. You point out Mitt Romney as having costed us American jobs; well, there are many, many liberals who have done the same thing. Your issue here is not unique to conservatives or liberals, many people from both sides do it.

And...I cannot help but notice how once again you have ignored my arguments and my posts. I assume, by your silence, that you are admitting that I am correct after all about healthcare and that your so-called "implications" are incorrect?

Hey dukkillr and Clay- how did you like the government spending in seconds? Puts it in perspective doesn't it. Really, that is the goal of the government, to put us in such debt, there will be no way out. We then will be at the mercy of other countries, and the UN. That won't be good.

Rupert Murdock? Gosh, Bella, you really are great at pumping out the conspiracy theories! Try using some actual evidence to back yourself up next time.

The rest of your post was more rantings and wild accusations and theories and insults. Look, Bella, I feel that I have done a very creditable and painstaking job of answering EVERY SINGLE ARGUMENT that you have brought up in your previous posts. Why, WHY won't you answer me? Why must you keep resorting to trashing Rush Limbaugh instead of addressing the real issues at hand?

According to the established rules of debate, by not answering any of my rebuttals to your previous arguments you have conceded that I have won every single issue. Healthcare, liberal presidents, economy, torture...the list goes on. Until you take the time to actually answer my rebuttals, I have won this debate and am under no further obligation to reply to your posts. For the record, restraining your speech to a more professional tone would greatly help your arguments.

Bob81 - I was looking forward to hearing your replies concerning the housing market! Seriously, it's been very interesting. I hope you haven't left this debate!

Wyatt - that was really cool! I had never heard it put that way before. Thanks for the research, and thanks to both you and Clay for the support.

- Dukkillr

I'm sorry to call someone a name, but sounds like bella was talking about herself when she said " but an unexamined lunatic can make it through the paper process."

I'm busy right now but just have to say to you Bella, That I have never met someone that can spew as much as you, that makes such broad statements to include the whole mass of people in one category,e.g.,(climate change deniers like Rush and his followers might not want to change the way they live, creating huge amounts of refuse, refusing to recycle, wasting food, fuel or other resources on their personal indulgence or convenience.) I know you don't read every line as you admitted you don't, so go read my rebuttal on your statement.
Also, you do alot of role reversing.When you say conservative, you liberal, when you say liberal, you mean conservative. The other half of what you say does not make any sense at all.

None of us know you personally and we all are saying the same things to you. You should heed these remarks as they must have some truth coming from different people that are strangers to you. It's called "CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM"!!!!!
Go back and read the our postings word for word and truely think
about it.
Read the quotes from the book by Dennis Cuddy that I posted. They're NOT just words typed out, they were actually said. Those are from leaders in government, and wealthy people that want a one world government, Socialism!
From your postings Bella, you talk like a socialist.
The sad thing is,you are a socialist and you don't even know it.

I'm going to say this again, Bella, you say you believe in the second amendment but you support an administration that is the most anti-gun administration we've every had.

Most anti- gun politicans are liberal. for every conservative you name an anti-gunner, I could name five liberals that are, maybe even ten.

Bella- Here is some proof of Obama being anti-gun. I suggest you READ IT.

Here is a copy of a letter that was emailed to me in the fall of 2008. It was on an official Illinois Rifle Association letter head with their insignia. It was all in gold.

October 10, 2008

Fellow Sportsman,

Hello, my name is Rich Pearson and I have been active in the firearm rights movement for over 40 years. For

the past 15 years, I have served in the Illinois state capitol as the chief lobbyist for the Illinois State Rifle

Association.

I lobbied Barack Obama extensively while he was an Illinois State Senator. As a result of that experience, I

know Obama’s attitudes toward guns and gun owners better than anyone. The truth be told, in all my years in

the Capitol I have never met a legislator who harbors more contempt for the law-abiding firearm owner than

Barack Obama.

Although Obama claims to be an advocate for the 2nd Amendment, his voting record in the Illinois Senate paints

a very different picture. While a state senator, Obama voted for a bill that would ban nearly every hunting rifle,

shotgun and target rifle owned by Illinois citizens. That same bill would authorize the state police to raid homes

of gun owners and forcibly confiscate banned guns. Obama supported a bill that would shut down law-abiding

firearm manufacturers including Springfield Armory, Armalite, Rock River Arms and Les Baer. Obama also

voted for a bill that would prohibit law-abiding citizens from purchasing more than one gun per month.

Without a doubt, Barack Obama has proven himself to be an enemy of the law abiding firearm owner. At the

same time, Obama has proven himself to be a friend to the hardened criminal. While a state senator, Obama

voted 4 times against legislation that would allow a homeowner to use a firearm in defense of home and family.

Does Barack Obama still sound to you like a “friend” of the law-abiding gun owner?

And speaking of friends, you can always tell a person by the company they keep. Obama counts among his

friends the Rev. Michael Pfleger - a renegade Chicago priest who has openly called for the murder of gun shop

owners and pro-gun legislators. Then there is his buddy Richard Daley, the mayor of Chicago who has declared

that if it were up to him, nobody would be allowed to own a gun. And let’s not forget Obama’s pal George

Soros - the guy who has pumped millions of dollars into the UN’s international effort to disarm law-abiding

citizens.

Obama has shown that he is more than willing to use other people’s money to fund his campaign to take your

guns away from you. While a board member of the leftist Joyce Foundation, Barack Obama wrote checks for

tens of millions of dollars to extremist gun control organizations such as the Illinois Council Against Handgun

Violence and the Violence Policy Center.

Does Barack Obama still sound to you like a “friend” of the law-abiding gun owner?

LMAO at all y'all. I can't believe that anyone is defending that HSUS supporting, hypocritical, drug-addicted, vitriol spewing, hate-monger that calls his followers "ditto-heads." Ditto-heads??? As in "I'm too stupid to think for myself so I let Rush tell me what to think!"

seadog- Like dukkillr said read the posts. The only one bringing up Rush is the name calling liberal Bella. We've just been dealing with her spewing nonsense. But as a liberal, I suppose you agree with her spewing. As far as Rush goes, he is no different than liberal talk show hosts. Just on the other side of the fence.

I'm getting off line now but I see that we have another name calling liberal in our mist. dukkillr hasn't bragged about his debating skills, he has only mentioned his accomplishments. They are pretty impressive I'd say. Plus he has stated nothing but facts.I'll bet he is much smarter then you are and that probably hurts you.But you see, you liberals always misconstrue the true meaning of words to fit your name calling attitude.

Before I go, I see that Bella didn't like the letter I posted.

Oh, by the way seadog, you are the one jumping to conclusions.

So earp, re: jumping to conclusions, I'm a liberal, right? Based on what?
The first thing you said to me was to read the posts. If you read them, you already know that the duck killer is sensitive about his screen name. He whined about it more than once and you defended him. He also bragged more than once about his debate skills. If you're having trouble seeing how the conclusion follows from the facts, start by looking up "brag" in that dictionary of yours.

Wow, ya'll have been busy. Seadog - I mentioned my debate skills twice. The other times I was explaining to Bella how a debate works (i.e. you have to use arguments instead of conspiracy theories). As far as screen name goes, I don't really care anymore, I just thought it was interesting that Bella and Bob81 couldn't figure out the lettering. And, uh, as for "So, ducky, what makes you think I was talking about you?", you said "LMAO at all ya'll" in your first post, so I naturally assumed that I was included in the ya'll.

Anyway, let's drop my debating skills. I would like to see you address my arguments. It's very easy to call another person's arguments "faux" and "memorized", but it's quite another thing to actually rebut them.

Bella - I don't see why you're so convinced that joining the military would turn me into a liberal, since most of the armed forces are conservative. Anyway, why the heck do you just assume that my parents made me memorize all of this stuff? Of course I had a conservative upbringing, but that's nothing new - I'm sure your daughter had a liberal upbringing. Btw, I don't watch Rush, and I rarely listen to him. Maybe once a month, if that? Anyway, I took over teaching myself in 5th grade, so I've had a lot of practice in "independent thinking".

In conclusion: forget about my screen name, forget about my debating history, forget about the fact that I was homeschooled...just address my arguments. If you can, which I doubt, since every single lib here except Bob81 has avoided answering them. I'm starting to think that you are incapable of legibly expressing your viewpoints...

Oh, wait, or are you not a liberal? My bad, seadog, I just noticed how touchy you were when Wyatt referred to you as one. Where exactly do you stand (other than not liking Rush)?

dukkillr- I want to say to you that you shouldn't try to jump to any conclusions about seadog and what he thinks of Rush when he used such descriptive words such as "hypocritical, drug-addicted, vitriol spewing, hate-monger"
or even guess he might be liberal when he added "that calls his followers "ditto-heads." Ditto-heads??? As in "I'm too stupid to think for myself so I let Rush tell me what to think!"
His saying all of this does not show his feelings or his affiliation to any political party in any shape or form. After all, we don't know this person.

And the whole thread is about Whatever sort of disreputable sheckelgrubing double dealer Rush is.. Why shouldn't I criticise Limburger, that is the whole point of the thread! He's a shill!
And Earp, there is a difference between capitalism and corporatism. I make things and sell them, therefore I am a capitalist, it is corporatism that is destroying our democracy and our planet. Since some time in the 50's corporations have managed to get more rights than people and they have used their assets to influence the democratic process and warp the judiciary to their benefit. The rise of the corporate class has been the mortal wounding of the middle class, but you guys aren't sociologists (like I am) so you are likely unaware or in denial of the dangers inherent in social upheaval. You claim to be conservative, but it is a label that no longer

And the whole thread is about Whatever sort of disreputable sheckelgrubing double dealer Rush is.. Why shouldn't I criticise Limburger, that is the whole point of the thread! He's a shill!
And Earp, there is a difference between capitalism and corporatism. I make things and sell them, therefore I am a capitalist, it is corporatism that is destroying our democracy and our planet. Since some time in the 50's corporations have managed to get more rights than people and they have used their assets to influence the democratic process and warp the judiciary to their benefit. The rise of the corporate class has been the mortal wounding of the middle class, but you guys aren't sociologists (like I am) so you are likely unaware or in denial of the dangers inherent in social upheaval. You claim to be conservative, but it is a label that no longer

Look, Bella, Rush Limbaugh is not the typical conservative, okay? I don't get my "talking points" from him, like I said I very rarely listen to him anyway.

Btw, I have read and memorized a TON of Blake, Byron, and Shelley during my studies. And Whitman, and Dickenson, and almost all of the major British and American poets.

Why do you think that I'm not thinking for myself? Why do you jump to that conclusion? It's not like you are saying anything new, you keep saying the same "faux talking points" that most liberals say. For the record, I AM THINKING FOR MYSELF. I probably do much more "independent thinking" than your daughter does.

As far as you not having to debate with me, I'm okay with that. I totally understand your inability to coherently explain what you believe, and I sympathize. Most liberals struggle with the same inability.

And...as far as being dogmatic and religious, you are again making assumptions as you have no way of knowing whether or not I am religious to start with. I know of many conservative atheists. That being said, I have no problem with being dogmatic about what I believe because (as I stated earlier) if 2+2=4 then I'm going to keep saying that 2+2=4. There is no problem with being dogmatic about the truth.

Is Bella the Moon Goddess of ZARDOZ still jerking you Guys around! LOL!!

Ooookay...you lost me there, Clay.

i think this is great im 16 and i find this hilarious after every sentence the clay cooper guy put LOL! or LMAO!............like how old are you. your a grown man. maybe you should grow up now

Here is another round of "Breakdown The Spew ". This time, acouple things made sense, maybe progress? Probably not. Only the highlights are broken down. No time for the rest.

Bella- what network news do you watch, MSNBC,NBC,CBS,ABC? Do you watch that pathetic Letterman show? Do you read magazines like Time, Newsweek, People, (Oh wait, ninety some percent of magazines are liberal, so are the newspapers like USA Today and New York Times and every other major newspaper.)

Clay or Dukkillr- Feel free to add to anything I missed or if you want to weigh in.

Bella- I don't buy this notion that Obama has it in for the second amendment .
Wyatt- That just means your are in complete denial. Research Obama's voting record.

Bella- I think the whole thing is scaremongering from Faux which is a tool of Rupert Murdock, who is Australian.
Wyatt- And what about George Soros, who is Hungarian born? He either started or funded the Open Society Institute (OSI), the International Action Network Against Small Arms (IANSA), or the quasi-politcal group Move On.org, or even the Center for American Progress. He also funded the democraticcanditate for president of the United States back to at least Clinton.

Bella- I suspect the Right is inventing this issue because that is always the first thing Right Wing Strongmen do when they take power. They take all the guns.
Wyatt- This is a time where you meant the left, not the right..

Bella- So lies are screamed claiming the liberals will take everybodies guns, with Limberger leading the charge! But Obama is kinda busy see, and hasn't had time to martial the forces to confiscate our legal arms yet.
Wyatt- Whoa Nelly........, Oh I mean Bella. (sorry I called you another name. Just slipped out. Didn't mean to.)I agree with that last part about Obama, give him time, first thing first is the health care issue, he has three years to take the guns. Plenty of time to work with.

Bella- I am a law abiding public servant myself,
Wyatt- Really, what is it you do? Don't tell me your a state or local politician.

Bella- Perhaps many of you "cons" are exactly that, felons, with good reason to fear loosing your gun privileges.
Wyatt- If we were felons, we wouldn't be allowed to have guns in our possession right now. It's the law for felons. Apparently you didn't know that fact.

Bella- How many of you right wing coolaid drinkers out there would pass such an evaluation anyway, let alone how many would put up with it, hmmm. You guys call me nuts but I don't care about your opinion, it just doesn't count. Wyatt- You're saying we wouldn't pass the test, We are the one that make sense, you Bella haven't made much sense through this whole thing, Thats O.K. you don't care about our opinion, but our opinion does count, we vote. We are not yet a one world government, (God Forbid!)

Bella- You guys have no business complaining about the deficit because your boys created it, largely funneling taxpayer dollars into the pockets of the corporations the war was trumped up to benefit.
Wyatt- I see you think liberals don't contribute to the debt. Sub-prime loans that the liberals demanded to be given out to people that couldn't afford them is what got us into this mess. Since Obama has taken office, the liberals have spent over 2 trillion dollars. That's over 63,000 years in seconds. (See earlier posting on "Debt in Seconds".) so Bella, your telling us that liberals don't contribute to the debt? Our National debt is over 12 trillion dollars. Liberals contributed more than their share of that amount. All the money the government spends on anything and everything comes from the people, us! Even your ACORN contributes to the debt. Every time the liberals give them money, it rings up the debt.

Bella- I'm not entirely happy with Obama either, as he signed the so-called Tobacco Control Legislation (that was gift to Philip Morris) that made my Djarum Kretek unimportable and turned me into a cigar smoker.
Wyatt- You're whining about some tabacco legislation? So why don't you just quit? Good time to do it since you can't smoke what you want. What are you going to do when Obama passes a law for you to turn in your guns. You CAN do something about that, stop voting for anti-gunners.

Bella- I'm not happy about the Health care legislation either, but unlike Dubya, Obama was actually elected fair and square, so I'm willing to go with him still.
Wyatt- Well, I can't believe it Bella, YOU? Not happy with the Health Care bill. This is the very first thing I have agreed with that you have said,(No wait, above, when Bella said that Obama hasn't had the time to consficate our guns yet, Then that would be twice that I agreed with her. Now about Bush-(By the way, see you do like to call people by other names than their own.) That was 9 years ago, GET OVER IT, besides, Gore and the DFL were trying every dirty tactic they could to win.

Bella- But you right wing crazeoids claiming to be the majority is ridiculous, If you guys were into majority rule, you wouldn't see conservative organizations put so much effort into vote suppression. The majority never needs to suppress votes, only the minority needs to do that. I will never forget all the folks who were interviewed after the elections telling how they'd been turned away from the polls for some specious reason or another. The Democrats never have to do anything like that, it would be anti democratic, you know. And don't go off on Acorn, they were acquitted.
Wyatt- No one claimed we are majority, that is your accusation as usual. ACORN just registers dead people, people that don't exist and family pets to vote. Who said they were acquitted? That must have been the democratic party that said that..

Bella-I have to assume that if you admire Limburger, you must want to be like him. So no wonder you approve of someone who abuses drugs and mistreats women, because that obviously is what you want to do. You want to be just like Rush. But don't think the rest of us do.
Wyatt- Another assumption, after all, you did say "I have to assume."

Bella- I don't inted or expect to "convince" any of you, right wing lunatics are usually pretty set in their opinions and you haven't convinced me of a thing either, except that some of you are a fine reflection of Rush Limburger.
Wyatt- Of course you didn't intend to convience us of your opinions, because you didn't make a damn bit of sense 95% of the time. You weren't convinced of anything we said BECAUSE YOU DON'T READ THE POSTINGS WORD FOR WORD. If you did, you'd learn something.

Bella- But I will call out the liars
Wyatt- Well, that would be you.

This gives me a reason to do this post, sorry about the what when it should of been a want.

Bella- Just in case you don't read the whole post, I don't want you to miss.

#1.Bankrupt this country and court massive inflation in order to implement his vision of a fascist/socialist nation.
#11.Cede American sovereignty to the American-hating United Nations.
#12.Defy the Second Amendment and a Supreme Court decision by making an end run that substantially reduces the supply of certain ammunition.

The rest is just as good.

Gee, all I gotta do is poke you guys with a stick and the sedition comes pouring right out! I ain't even going to respond to all that malarkey. You guys make it perfectly clear the real reason why you are buying up every assault weapon in sight, You are getting ready for insurrection! Disloyal wretches. You guys are the ones who want the fascist government, not me. You are the guys who want to repress people of color, women and gay people. You are the guys who don't want your fellow countrymen to have access to medical care. You are the guys who would let multinational corporations manipulate media and politics for unfair advantage. Your side tried to quash science that didn't support your ideology. Your side supports mountain top removal coal mining and still tries to prevent governments from setting goals in reducing Carbon emissions. If the world

usafvet1966 has it just right - it's all about the money with Rush. If Limbaugh could make more money being a Communist, he would flip in less than a heartbeat. Even knowing this, though, I'm still in shock that he supports the HSUS - it is close to unbelievable. I doubt 1 in 1000 Americans knows the name of the head of PETA, or the HSUS, but every one knows Rush. That's why he should be on the hit list, and why he should publicly repent.

Just for you USAFVet1966 - same here - USAF 1965 - 1969, RVN I Corps 1966 - 1968 - GO AIR FORCE!

from usafvet1966 wrote 1 week 3 days ago

Limbaugh proved a long time ago that he is in show business to make as much money as possible. No one should be surprised that he sold his services so cheaply. Although he is sometimes a whacky funny entertainer, he is also a pathological liar. Furthermore, he has no respect for our elected government officials and is insidiously enhancing his career by playing on the fears of gun owners and bible thumpers.

Whoooee, what a discussion.
History, quotes, opinions of all types.
Only part that's not good is the stereotyping and name calling.
If you have an argument to make, make it.
If you poke somebody in the eye, expect to get poked back.
Best one at insults does NOT win.
Never took debate myself, but I think I heard that once.

Your side (you guys!) are this.
Yeah, well, your side (and you!) are that.
Well, that's because you're a poopy-head.
Well, you are a.............go ahead, fill in the blank.
The original article that started this was one guy's opinion of who was a hero and who was a villain, based on a narrow subject.
Some agreed, some disagreed.
An old friend said once "he's a good guy, but he....".
I appreciate your (all of you) knowledge, experience, and world views, but it's hard to read or understand when it's wrapped in all the vitriol.
Are you sure all the things that've been said are something you'd say to someone's face? That's one of the problems of the Internet.

I'm back! Just had to make this point: I looked up seadog's famous point about ditto-heads, and it turned out that he was not telling the whole story. So much for being moderate. Here's the info from the URBAN DICTIONARY:

"When the Rush Limbaugh show started in 1988, many callers would express how much they loved the show. It took a lot of air time, so he asked them to just say "dittos" to agree with previous callers who like the show. It doesn't mean that they agree with everything he says. If you were one of his 30 million listeners you would know this.
I'm an admitted Rush Limbaugh Ditto Head because I like the show, not because I always agree with him."

Did you see those lines about not agreeing with everything he says, seadog? Your argument about "hanging onto every word" sort of falls apart, doesn't it? Once more, we see the value of ACTUAL EVIDENCE in a debate round...

dukkillr, you're kidding, right? Conservatives are never insurrectionists? Your history lessons must have been missing a few chapters. Timothy McVeigh was a liberal? All these white power militias that are popping up everywhere are liberals? Does murdering abortion doctors meet your definition of insurrection? Maybe not, but it's close enough for me. What about the War of Yankee Aggression (you probably call it the "civil" war)? The conservative Confederate States of America defied the liberal North. I'm sure that all the freedom fighters in Castro's prisons would love to hear that you think they are the liberals and Castro is the conservative. Have you studied any Caribbean, Central or South American history? If so, it must have been limited to select readings about Castro & Che Guevera, because the frequent revolutions have been going back & forth like so many ping pong matches. But enough about your ill-informed response to Bella, I need to go to the fridge para una cerveza fria de la Republica Dominicana. I hope you're not one of those conservatives that gets upset over a little espanol.

Hey dukkillr- Don't go too far, I like to read what you have to say. There isn't one thing I disagreed with what you've said. Read your last post, Good job on researching that.

It's late and I'm going to bed.

Hey Clay, how was hunting?

Wyatt, feel free to call me seamutt. I sorta like it. It reminds me of the time that guy called me...oh, I can't talk about that--5th Amendment issue. You understand--I know how much you right wingers value the 5th Amendment. Does that make me a liberal or a conservative? I want to "conserve" my 5th Amendment rights(just like I want to conserve my 2nd Amendment rights). Or would that make me a crazy liberal because I want to be liberated from the fear that a LEO is going to try to beat a confession out of me? Gee, do you think Rush exercised his fifth Amendment rights? I'll bet he did, that d@mn liberal. His ACLU attorney would never have let him testify against himself. LMAO!!!
BTW, you wondered if, by referring to myself as an independent thinker, I was suggesting that you are not. At the time, I was not attempting to suggest that anyone in particular is not. However, your subsequent comment that you would listen to "all the conservatives everyday all day" makes a pretty powerful statement that you are not. Anyone who listens to only one viewpoint cannot be an independent thinker.

Calling Rush a American Patriot.. sickens me ...I save that comment for someone that served in the armed forces... not opps out because of a pimple on his ass.... and now this peta crap...

And I do thank you all, really. Most of the people I interact with I always attempt near perfect courtesy and politeness. It is such a pleasure to actually have a venue where I actually can cut loose on fools. So thank you all, I enjoy it immensely. But don't you ever call me a "soy sucker" again! The other fecal matter is all old hat, heard it before, soo trite, soo very very trite, nothing new or oriuginal at all. But with "soy sucker" you completely miss the mark. To think I would have shoveled goat poop for years, and then consume genetically engineered soy drinks! I'm not even that fond of tofu! You can keep your MochaTofuSoyaLatteFrappachino, I'm just gonna go make a cuppa joe.

Seadog - McVeigh was not a conservative, he was a chestnut. Most white-power groups such as the KKK and the NAZI's are in fact liberal. (NAZI = National Socialist Party). As far as abortion doctors go, there have been like 7-8 killed in the past 15 years. Wow. Now, I AM NOT CONDONING THE MURDERS OF ABORTION DOCTORS, I think that any murder is repulsive, but I am also saying that those doctors were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of babies, if you just account for partial-birth abortion alone. We all agree that partial-birth abortion is murder, right? Anyway, a few vigilantes is hardly insurrection.

Uh, yeah I call it the Civil War, following the precedent of most historians. As for Fidel Castro, he was the liberal insurrectionist and the freedom fighters were trying to take the land back. So no, I am not saying that they were liberal.
No worries, I'm Hispanic so I don't get upset over espanol.

My point about conservatives was that true conservatives won't try to ban other people from hunting, even if they don't hunt themselves, because they are against excessive government regulation. You are seriously misinformed about your "urban conservatives" point: the vast majority of the wealthy in America vote Democrat.

Rush Limbaugh - I am disputing that point. He may not mince words, but he's still right on a lot of his points. Back in pre-WWII times, everyone was screaming that Winston Churchill was a "war monger", and it turned that he was right after all. Only handful of liberals? Oh sure, whatever. You need to get out more.

Independent thinkers: if you listen to both people who say 2+2=4 and people who say 2+2=5, and feel that that makes you an independent thinker, then go right ahead. I have no need to listen to nonsense, especially when I know which side is correct. You're just sitting on the fence.

Extremism - you sound pretty good on the death penalty point and on the gun control point. I was thrown off when you called me an extremist for being conservative. So...you're a moderate? Are you left or right of John McCain? (just trying to figure out where everyone stands here).

hahaha Bella, you really are funny. That post really cracks me up. So, this is all a fight against Mormons? You were raised a Mormon, so now you rabidly avoid anything that remotely resembles an established religion? All under the guise of being a "free thinker"? Sounds like someone has emotional problems here...

But anyway, I'm pretty anti-Mormon myself. Some friends of mine had family try to pull out of the Mormons years ago, and they said it was like the Mafia - they moved across country and two months later they had Mormon priests (or whatever their spiritual leaders are called) knocking on their door and making death threats. So yeah, I'm anti-Mormon myself, didn't want to send the opposite impression.

John L - thanks for the backup. I think it's pretty humorous, actually, watching Bella and Clay compete to see who can come up with the most insults...

Oh btw, seadog, any response about ditto-heads? or are you admitting that you took it out of context?

dukkillr
Don't hold your breath.
They don't deal in thought or facts, it's all about how they "feel".
I was going to write about "dittos" but you beat me to it, and did a better job.
But, but, but, they meant well,(like all their 'social programs')despite the unintended (or possibly intended) consequences that inevitably follow.
How's that "War on Poverty" or "Great Society" worked out?
Favorite Rush quote lately, "How's that Hoax and Chains working out for you"?
That oughta explode some heads, and didn't even have to call anybody any names.

John L - great quote.

Good point about global warming, Wyatt. You guys all heard about the global warming/email fiasco, right? They found some emails between top global warming researchers at the University of East Anglia discussing ways to hide the "decline in global temperatures" (exact quote.) The earth's temperature right now is 1 degree cooler than it was during the 1860s, before cars were even invented. The moose population in the state of Maine produces more co2 each year than all the cars in America combined. A medium-sized dog has the same energy-impact as an average 4x4 SUV (18 mpg hwy). Global warming is non-existent, and I have over 30,000 scientists who back me up on that point. Cap and trade is all about money and power.

Plus, even if it was a threat, global regulation is worse than useless. We all know what a stunning disappointment the Kyoto Protocol agreement was.

What's your op, seadog? For or against global warming?

Oh, this is rich! I gotta stop bringing beverages around the computer. I laughed so hard I almost spilled my black & tan. McVeigh & the KKK are liberals! That is such an absurd statement that I can't believe even dukkillr could say it. All the right wing militia kooks are liberal now? WTF! The KKK--liberal??? Would that make MLK & the civil rights activists conservatives? KKK? You must mean some guy named Kevin K. Kent, PETA member, not the reactionary right wing Christian racist group that burns crosses and lynches black people. NAZI skinheads are liberal?!? By what definition of liberal? Are you using the "anyone that's not me" definition or the "anything we think is bad" definition? BTW, the NAZIs in Germany were not liberals. That's a fiction created by throwing out the word "socialist" to poorly educated simpletons who just nod their heads like ... like ... Ditto heads. lol WWII was not right vs. left. The USSR was on our side. The NAZIs didn't fit your right/left 2-dimentional way of thinking. Castro's insurrection was in 1959. Since then, the insurrectionists have been right wing (very right wing) freedom fighters. I know some of them. They aren't all in Cuba. A lot of guys still train down here hoping to go back some day and oust los communistas.
If you think most rich people vote Democrat, you're completely delusional or you've been listening to too many righty talking heads and don't know enough to tell when they're lying to you. I refer to you as an extremist because you said moderates are extremists. I've said many times that both the far right & far left are dangerous. If you're so far to the right that moderates look like liberal extremists to you, then you are dangerous.
I better get going--it's almost time to "cook" the sushi. To everyone: if you understand, Feliz Navidad y prospero ano nuevo. If you don't comprende, Merry Christmas and a prosperous new year. happy holidays to those who have other reasons to celebrate.
To Bella: if I ever get a good ship under me, I'll surely offer you a commission. We'll need a good brewer. We'll have to bring along a few righies & lefties to keep it interesting. We can show the righties some new ways to take on the left.

I didn't say McVeigh was a liberal, I said he was a chestnut (as in a mental case who can't be classified either way). The KKK is NOT right wing, as a group they don't hold to any main conservative principles. They aren't Christian either. Anyway, in case you didn't know, there are a lot of different sub-groups inside the KKK, a lot of which are indeed socialist or outright Communist. The NAZI skinheads were liberal in that they 1. Were socialist and 2. Advocated government rule over individual people's lives. How do you translate socialist? They definitely weren't conservative (as you claimed). Nice jab with ditto-heads; you just destroyed your image as an unbiased moderate by admitting that you purposely take quotes out of context.

The USSR was on the NAZIs side until the NAZIs turned on them. They teamed up together in the beginning to take out Poland, Norway, Finland, and several other countries. Try reading history. I'm not being two-dimensional, I'm just answering your arguments in kind.

Yes, the freedom fighters are very right wing, but they aren't insurrectionists. They are fighting the original insurrectionists, the Castro bros. Anyway, the US government has refused to recognize the Castros as a legit government, so technically the freedom fighters can't be insurrectionists anyway.
I'm delusional? What about George Soros (who controls Goldman-Sachs), the Kennedys (vast familial wealth), Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid...the list goes on. You've been listening to too many "independent thinkers".

You said extremist first, not me. Anyway, I'm fine if you want to stop the extremist jabs: I'm not an extremist, and you aren't an extremist.

Just curious, why are you always using Spanish phrases? I have no problem with it at all, but I was just wondering. Merry Christmas to all as well; allow me to recommend venison medallions wrapped in bacon as an excellent Christmas dinner.

New ways? Your lovely Democratic Congress has a lower approval rating than George Bush had. And your beloved President Obama has dropped below 50% in approval ratings as well, meaning that the majority of Americans don't like the way your Dems run things. The only reason the GOP ran into problems is that we elected waaay too many moderates like Rudy Guiliani (no one likes wishy-washy politicians.) And Bush screwed everything up by trying to make the mods happy; if he had stuck with being conservative, he would have had a lot more support. Trying to please everyone makes no one happy.

dukkillr
I understand you perfectly, I was hoping to defuse the anger and rancor from others with a little humor. I have really appreciated your posts.
You make well reasoned arguments, stay there.
Wyatt, hang in there too.
Clay Cooper, always appreciate your insights and wealth of quotes.
Del from Kansas, get up here to Nebraska for some hunting.
As the quote says " Never get down and wrestle in the mud with a pig, you'll just get dirty, and the pig enjoys it".
(Okay, maybe I don't have it exactly right, but that's the way I remember it)
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to ALL!!!!
(yea, even the rest of yah)

John L - haha that's what I thought but I wasn't sure =P Thanks for the support, and thanks for reading.

Nice quote. Great thought.

Oh and Earp, I have a degree (Summa Cum Laude, dude). Happy holidays, Feliz Natividad, Joyeux Noel, cHappy Chaunuka, Salubrious Solstice and Gud Jule

Before I go- Bella, you posted two postings in a row that are nothing like any others you've posted. They show a civil side of you. Thanks for the seasons greetings and the same to you. That was nice of you.
(I can't believe I just typed that.)

It looks like the sheep are winning. I used the term independent thinker so now independent thought is under attack. Independent must be a code word for liberal. Ditto heads don't do that--heres your cue--just nod your head & say ditto. Duck, if you can't see how ditto head is an insult, I feel sorry for you. Knock off the cheap debate club BS. I'm not conceding anything if I don't bother to address it. The straw man arguments from everyone are pathetic and you don't get to define what I am. Suddenly, they are "my" Dems. Just because I don't like Lardass & the Reprehensible party doesn't make the Dimms mine. I think for myself. I don't follow your knee-jerk conservative BS & I don't follow the knee-jerk libs either. It looks like your definition of liberal is anyone that doesn't go to your church--BTW, that's an exaggeration so you don't need to point out that you didn't say that. Seriously, the KKK is liberal and not Christian? Get a grip on reality. They're right wing WASPs. Have you actually heard the garbage they spew about "the jews" and "protecting white Christian women from those filthy ni**ers." I lived in a really racist area for a while & I was recruited. They're right wing racist nuts & they think they're "good" Christians. Liberal doesn't mean anything you don't agree with--it's not bad or good no matter how often the conservative talking heads use it as a pejorative.
Re: my use of spanish phrases, it pisses off a certain subset of conservatives, just like my "People Eating Tasty Animals" hat pisses off a certain subset of liberals.
Merry Christmachannakwanziramidonica y prospero ano nuevo. Peace, out.