


February 11, 2010
Discussion Topic: The Latest On The Ongoing Lead-Ban Debate
First, from the Billings Gazette:
Rob Domenech and his research associates didn’t know what they were looking for when they started testing the blood of golden eagles along Montana’s Rocky Mountain Front three years ago.
What they found was lead. In some cases, lots of it. . . .
Domenech, executive director of Raptor View Research Institute, was one of hundreds of people to send comments to the Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Commission in what has become a controversial proposal to ban lead shot on state-owned wildlife management areas.
The commission meets in Helena Thursday to consider on the idea. . . .
Gary Marbut, executive director of the Montana Shooting Sports Association, said that the agency made no scientific case in favor of the ban and that hunters and gun owners have reason to be suspicious of such proposals.
Most who have written in agree with Marbut.
“There are people who would like to use a lead ban as a way to end hunting and as a way to end the right to bear arms,” he said.
Domenech was also quoted in a recent article entitled, “Get The Lead Out,” posted on The Cornell Lab of Ornithology website. Here’s an excerpt:
“We are seeing some very acute cases of lead poisoning in Bald Eagles,” says Kay Neumann, wildlife rehabilitator and executive director of Saving Our Avian Resources (SOAR). “The eagles are experiencing respiratory distress, they’re puking green, they’re defecating green,” she says.
Neumann’s research in Iowa points to the same conclusion as a growing number of studies around the world: fragments of lead from rifle bullets in big-game carcasses pose threats to scavenging birds—and quite likely to humans as well. . . .
Studies on deer carcasses have shown that lead-core bullets fragment much more than most researchers previously realized. Discarded deer entrails (“gut piles”) and rifle-killed carcasses that hunters are unable to find often contain hundreds of tiny, soft lead fragments.
“I never realized how much lead-core bullets fragment,” says Golden Eagle researcher Rob Domenech. “If the majority of avian researchers didn’t realize this, it’s no surprise that hunters and the general public don’t either.”
Nobody wants to poison raptors, but there's no denying that some science can be politically motivated. Is this one of those cases?
Comments (20)
Everyone brings their preconceptions and agendas to thier work. Is it possible that this is pure science? Sure. Is it possible that it's pursued with all of the scientific integrity of the global warming studies. You bet.
Umm, hmmm, wouldn't a bunch or raptors that drink water that is often contaminated by runoff from mines around towns named, for example, I don't know, lemme see, LEADVILLE, possibly have access to an aerosolized lead or a water soluble lead compound?
I agree w/ Mike Deihl, while it's unfortunate that these birds have been lead poisoned, I think it's pure knee-jerk politics to automatically assume it's from bullet fragments and lead shot. I'd be curious to know if they researched the levels of lead in the fish in nearby streams and rivers. While bald eagles do scavenge, they're also excellent hunters. I doubt seriously that alot of thought was given to alternate ways the birds ingested the lead. More like "High lead levels, YEAH!! LETS BLAME HUNTERS!!!!"
Like Mike said, there are a lot of different ways lead can get into a bird (or anything for that matter). Just because lead exists both in bullets and in these bird's blood isn't necessarily causative. Correlation does not mean causation. Of course, if the bullets really are acting like those researchers are saying they are, we could have a problem. Until there's actual evidence of it though, not just someone speculating, it wouldn't make any sense for a ban.
I would need more information on the sample size of the study and percentage of "high" levels. Like anything else, people will use it to their advantage to pursue their objectives - even if they have to exagerate the impact. There are a lot of people in the world that would be easily influenced by reading a single article like this - I can almost visualize a landowner eliminating access because "I don't want you to kill any eagles on my land"... If the facts truly show this is a hazard to wildlife beyond what anyone imagined, then it puts emphasis on finding alternatives to lead, but I have a feeling it is being blown out of proportion by those that are typically against hunting in general.
I agree with Mike, especially in Montana where pretty much anything that could be mined was mined. So the contamination of the eagles could be the result of man made folly or it could be natural. I would like to see some more research done, testing the streams for runoff contamination.
I have a hard time believing that the eagles are sick due to a few "lost" deer or elk. Has anyone tested the vulture population for lead? seems to me they would have a higher concentration than the eagles, since they primarily scavenge as opposed to eagles that prefer some of my favorite trout!
Of all the things we (as a society, not hunters) do to pollute the environment and animals, poisoning them with lead from bullets should be the last of our worries. Just my opinion.
I LIKE MIKE!!! The mines of old put more crap in the ground then present day hunters.The raptors drink the tainted water,an eat the toxin laden rodents that live in the ground.just look at all them old photos in a history book.
Ditto. It's a knee-jerk politics reaction, plain and simple.
Mike Diehl beat me to the punch.
Anyone who has ever flown over Eagle Country and look down on the rivers can see the run off from industries. I cannot see how Eagles can get that much lead from game. Of course money speaks and I'm sure some Commercial Group is paying somebody off to look the other way and to drag this agenda out to receive more funding to line there pockets!
Back in 90 while stationed at Eielson AFB Alaska, i got the opportunity to go up on a KC-135 Tanker Mission. As we flew over Alaska on the 3 hour mission, the majority of the time I was looking down thru the Boomers window getting a panoramic view of the Alaska Tundra below. I could definably see the waist water coming off Gold Mines and other Industrial sites.
All this crapola started with the Condors in Kalifornia. If my memory serves me correctly there was an equal amount of evidence pointing to environmental lead, not necessarily lead from rifle bullets.
Anything both Mike D. and Clay C. agree on has to be on the level. The Bald Eagle has made a GREAT comeback here in New England. People hunt here with lead bullets, but I have never heard of any Quabbin Eagles or Oxbow Eagles with lead poisoning. There is no mining here aside from gravel pits, and eagles are doing great despite gunners shooting lead shot. Lead is prohibited for some purposes but is still permitted for most shooting applications.
One thing puzzles me, I would think the LAST place firearms rights would be in danger is in Big Sky Country. Even here in Liberal Massachusetts I see no evidence for any campaign to confiscate firearms from law biding citizens. I do see evidence that anybody who hasn't been extremely law abiding is liable to have his guns confiscated, I've even heard of people who had cases long in the past having their guns taken. But they gotta have a reason...The lack of due process bothers me, but it is the same thing with the so-called terrorist watch list that has toddlers listed on it (with common Arabic names).
Has anybody in those fields of science come across any dead crows or coyote among other critters that are sickly or have died from lead poisoning because of consumption of gut piles? The great avian birds aren't the only ones that take advantage of them.
Every year there is a spike in the number of bald eagles brought to the raptor center at the University of MN with lead poisoning, right after the firearm deer season. That doesn't seem to be a coincidence. I personally switched to Barnes all copper bullets. Perfect perfomance, and no worries when I sit down to eat medium rare venison steaks with my three year old daughter. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
More conclusive evidence needed.
Historical New York State Eagle populations have gone from 72 total nesting pairs, DEC est 1975, to 154 nesting pairs, actual count spring 2008. In 1975 Bald Eagle were extinct as a nesting species in NY. Bald eagles have therefore gone from extinct to common in a thirty three year period. The deer harvest in NY during that period was approx. 200,000 per year. I would find it almost impossible to believe that Bald Eagle populations could increase that robustly if lead contamination from ingestion of firearm killed deer was a factor in lead contamination of the birds. Something smells about this study. It is not a good smell.
In 2006 60 pairs of Bald Eag;es in NY fledged 3 chicks. Lead contaminated birds would not be achieving nesting sucess anywhere near this level!
Several good comments! Yes the lead could be coming from elsewhere, but I think it's every hunters responsibility to be a conservationist and environmentalist. I like to leave the woods in the same condition as I found them. And I think that means making every possible effort to retrieve fallen game, remove as much of an animal as possible, and when practical, remove the entrails.
IMO lead poisoning is being used as a tool by the far left environmental whackos to reduce the number of hunters in the field.
Heavy amounts of lead in a low water marsh giving access to lead by ducks and other diving birds is one thing, and even then there is a good counter argument (ie) it is estimated that 3.5 MILLION ducks and geese in Canada and the USA fly off and die each year because of the poor performance of steel shot. The negatives far outweigh the positives...and now it is being pushed, and passed for upland game birds? Younger hunters, which are in decline anyway may accept it, but many older hunters give it up, and that is what the left wants.
lead is everywhere there are other more important issues these hippies need to attend to not hunters
I think if you dig deep and look at the root of the comment ,"Neumann’s research in Iowa points to the same conclusion as a growing number of studies around the world: fragments of lead from rifle bullets in big-game carcasses pose threats to scavenging birds—and quite likely to humans as well" I believe you'll find the same old papers and x-rays put out by the Perigrine Falcon fund, specifically a dermatologist on the governing board.
These were the same folks that successful took advantage of hunter apathy and passed the lead ban in CA. Same folks that spearheaded the lead scare at food banks in the Dakotas. They simply move from state-to-state with their "studies" and try and ban lead. They take advantage of the public's lack of scientific training and push their agenda. The truth is, lead isotope studies have not pointed at ammunition as the source of the lead poisoning.
You can't tell me there aren't any abandoned lead mines tailings piles in Montana were a raptor couldn't have picked up gravel?
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Umm, hmmm, wouldn't a bunch or raptors that drink water that is often contaminated by runoff from mines around towns named, for example, I don't know, lemme see, LEADVILLE, possibly have access to an aerosolized lead or a water soluble lead compound?
I agree w/ Mike Deihl, while it's unfortunate that these birds have been lead poisoned, I think it's pure knee-jerk politics to automatically assume it's from bullet fragments and lead shot. I'd be curious to know if they researched the levels of lead in the fish in nearby streams and rivers. While bald eagles do scavenge, they're also excellent hunters. I doubt seriously that alot of thought was given to alternate ways the birds ingested the lead. More like "High lead levels, YEAH!! LETS BLAME HUNTERS!!!!"
Like Mike said, there are a lot of different ways lead can get into a bird (or anything for that matter). Just because lead exists both in bullets and in these bird's blood isn't necessarily causative. Correlation does not mean causation. Of course, if the bullets really are acting like those researchers are saying they are, we could have a problem. Until there's actual evidence of it though, not just someone speculating, it wouldn't make any sense for a ban.
Everyone brings their preconceptions and agendas to thier work. Is it possible that this is pure science? Sure. Is it possible that it's pursued with all of the scientific integrity of the global warming studies. You bet.
I agree with Mike, especially in Montana where pretty much anything that could be mined was mined. So the contamination of the eagles could be the result of man made folly or it could be natural. I would like to see some more research done, testing the streams for runoff contamination.
I have a hard time believing that the eagles are sick due to a few "lost" deer or elk. Has anyone tested the vulture population for lead? seems to me they would have a higher concentration than the eagles, since they primarily scavenge as opposed to eagles that prefer some of my favorite trout!
I would need more information on the sample size of the study and percentage of "high" levels. Like anything else, people will use it to their advantage to pursue their objectives - even if they have to exagerate the impact. There are a lot of people in the world that would be easily influenced by reading a single article like this - I can almost visualize a landowner eliminating access because "I don't want you to kill any eagles on my land"... If the facts truly show this is a hazard to wildlife beyond what anyone imagined, then it puts emphasis on finding alternatives to lead, but I have a feeling it is being blown out of proportion by those that are typically against hunting in general.
I LIKE MIKE!!! The mines of old put more crap in the ground then present day hunters.The raptors drink the tainted water,an eat the toxin laden rodents that live in the ground.just look at all them old photos in a history book.
Mike Diehl beat me to the punch.
Anyone who has ever flown over Eagle Country and look down on the rivers can see the run off from industries. I cannot see how Eagles can get that much lead from game. Of course money speaks and I'm sure some Commercial Group is paying somebody off to look the other way and to drag this agenda out to receive more funding to line there pockets!
Back in 90 while stationed at Eielson AFB Alaska, i got the opportunity to go up on a KC-135 Tanker Mission. As we flew over Alaska on the 3 hour mission, the majority of the time I was looking down thru the Boomers window getting a panoramic view of the Alaska Tundra below. I could definably see the waist water coming off Gold Mines and other Industrial sites.
All this crapola started with the Condors in Kalifornia. If my memory serves me correctly there was an equal amount of evidence pointing to environmental lead, not necessarily lead from rifle bullets.
Anything both Mike D. and Clay C. agree on has to be on the level. The Bald Eagle has made a GREAT comeback here in New England. People hunt here with lead bullets, but I have never heard of any Quabbin Eagles or Oxbow Eagles with lead poisoning. There is no mining here aside from gravel pits, and eagles are doing great despite gunners shooting lead shot. Lead is prohibited for some purposes but is still permitted for most shooting applications.
One thing puzzles me, I would think the LAST place firearms rights would be in danger is in Big Sky Country. Even here in Liberal Massachusetts I see no evidence for any campaign to confiscate firearms from law biding citizens. I do see evidence that anybody who hasn't been extremely law abiding is liable to have his guns confiscated, I've even heard of people who had cases long in the past having their guns taken. But they gotta have a reason...The lack of due process bothers me, but it is the same thing with the so-called terrorist watch list that has toddlers listed on it (with common Arabic names).
Has anybody in those fields of science come across any dead crows or coyote among other critters that are sickly or have died from lead poisoning because of consumption of gut piles? The great avian birds aren't the only ones that take advantage of them.
IMO lead poisoning is being used as a tool by the far left environmental whackos to reduce the number of hunters in the field.
Heavy amounts of lead in a low water marsh giving access to lead by ducks and other diving birds is one thing, and even then there is a good counter argument (ie) it is estimated that 3.5 MILLION ducks and geese in Canada and the USA fly off and die each year because of the poor performance of steel shot. The negatives far outweigh the positives...and now it is being pushed, and passed for upland game birds? Younger hunters, which are in decline anyway may accept it, but many older hunters give it up, and that is what the left wants.
lead is everywhere there are other more important issues these hippies need to attend to not hunters
Of all the things we (as a society, not hunters) do to pollute the environment and animals, poisoning them with lead from bullets should be the last of our worries. Just my opinion.
Ditto. It's a knee-jerk politics reaction, plain and simple.
Every year there is a spike in the number of bald eagles brought to the raptor center at the University of MN with lead poisoning, right after the firearm deer season. That doesn't seem to be a coincidence. I personally switched to Barnes all copper bullets. Perfect perfomance, and no worries when I sit down to eat medium rare venison steaks with my three year old daughter. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
More conclusive evidence needed.
Historical New York State Eagle populations have gone from 72 total nesting pairs, DEC est 1975, to 154 nesting pairs, actual count spring 2008. In 1975 Bald Eagle were extinct as a nesting species in NY. Bald eagles have therefore gone from extinct to common in a thirty three year period. The deer harvest in NY during that period was approx. 200,000 per year. I would find it almost impossible to believe that Bald Eagle populations could increase that robustly if lead contamination from ingestion of firearm killed deer was a factor in lead contamination of the birds. Something smells about this study. It is not a good smell.
In 2006 60 pairs of Bald Eag;es in NY fledged 3 chicks. Lead contaminated birds would not be achieving nesting sucess anywhere near this level!
Several good comments! Yes the lead could be coming from elsewhere, but I think it's every hunters responsibility to be a conservationist and environmentalist. I like to leave the woods in the same condition as I found them. And I think that means making every possible effort to retrieve fallen game, remove as much of an animal as possible, and when practical, remove the entrails.
I think if you dig deep and look at the root of the comment ,"Neumann’s research in Iowa points to the same conclusion as a growing number of studies around the world: fragments of lead from rifle bullets in big-game carcasses pose threats to scavenging birds—and quite likely to humans as well" I believe you'll find the same old papers and x-rays put out by the Perigrine Falcon fund, specifically a dermatologist on the governing board.
These were the same folks that successful took advantage of hunter apathy and passed the lead ban in CA. Same folks that spearheaded the lead scare at food banks in the Dakotas. They simply move from state-to-state with their "studies" and try and ban lead. They take advantage of the public's lack of scientific training and push their agenda. The truth is, lead isotope studies have not pointed at ammunition as the source of the lead poisoning.
You can't tell me there aren't any abandoned lead mines tailings piles in Montana were a raptor couldn't have picked up gravel?
Post a Comment