Obvious Zermoid has never been on a Search & Destroy Mission for for annoying life forms. I can picture him packing that 50 cal Howitzer and 50+ rounds of ammo in the Desert heat at 4200+ foot elevation!

One of Elmer Keith favorite cartridges was the 25-06 with 120's at 3000fps. He was fascinated with anything heavy for the caliber at 3000 FPS

"Don’t guess where to hold; the odds are you’ll be wrong. Know for sure."

Dead on again

Might be a dumb question. If the above is true for the 25-06, would it not be more prudent to buy a 30-06 for things like pronghorns, where range is everything? I honestly don't know, hunting in the woods up here.

Beekeeper: My prayers are with you and your family.

NOS but beekeeper's dad passed away early this morning.

To Del in KS. The Zeiss in question is the $4,000 scope of which I wrote a little while ago. It is worth every one of those dollars, and I haven't used anything that really compares to it.

Ouch! for 4 grand that scope would need to do lots more than be a great sight for me to part with that much green.

Dave,

First things first, my condolences to Beekeeper. A good fellow in his own right, I'm sure his father had a lot to do with that. Give your old man a good send off.

Now, since you touched on the topic of heavier bullets and trajectory, I want to follow-up with ya'all on the problems with my 7x57 everyone was kind enough to help me out with.

Quick refresher for everyone: I hunt with a sporterized FN Mauser 98 in 7x57 - military barrel (stepped contour), shooting 140 gr. spitzer with 44 gr. of IMR 4350, sight is a Nikon Buckmaster 4.5-14 side focus. I was having problems with bullet drop at 200 yds. I was getting 8-18 in. of vertical drop which isn't right; drop should only be 3.5" approx. at 200 yds. It cost me three deer this past season. Dave & others suggested I make sure everything was tight, which I did; they suggested I change the scope, luckily I didn't have to.

First, as I mentioned when I first spoke of this problem, I played around with the ammo and switched to a heavier bullet - 162 gr. Hornady SSTs with 43 gr. of IMR 4350. Second, I changed the parallax setting on my scope from 100 yds. to 200 yds. and sighted in. After shooting 50 rnds over hilly terrain, I got the scope settled in (MOA +/- groups) at 3" above center. Seems the heavier bullets panned out for me at distance. I need to reload another box and go to the range and sight it in so that is shoots 2" high at 100 and approx. 2" low at 200.

All that said, I have to agree with Dave & Elmer. Bullets do go where they want to go despite the best machinations of men & heavier bullets do seem to have better trajectory than lighter ones and I hypothesize that this is because heavier bullets maintain their stability over longer distances because more mass is being pushed through the air. Hence, resistance and other contributing factors have less effect. This line of thought leads to another question for Dave & Co.:

Could it have been that I was under-loading the 140gr. loads for that kind of distance seeing that 44 gr. of 4350 is near the bottom of the range for that load? Notes: Actually, depending on the manual 44 gr. is the bottom/lightest load for that cartridge & bullet; we tried 43 grn of 4350 but pressure were spiking (The current load - 43 gr. of 4350 behind a 162 gr. SST is near the top of the range for that bullet)
Maybe the extraordinary drop was the result of the bullet losing too much velocity at 200 yds? Thoughts anyone.

(Sorry for the long long long post)

countitandone

The answer is yes, you will find a minimum and maximum working velocity for every bullet. Another point of view, you will find in Col. Hatchers Notebook why so much game is actually lost at close range. In the book, they taken two identical 30-06 150 grain full metal jacket bullets and shot one into wood planks at 50 yards and one at 200 yards. You would think the round at 50 yards having much more velocity and energy would penetrate deeper but it didn't. The overall penetration was just less than 12 inches because the bullet tumbled upon impact while the round at 200 yards penetrated over 2 feet and traveled in a straight line. The reason was, the bullet at 50 feet didn't have a chance to stabilize whereas the bullet at 200 did. Also you would think the 50 BMG with it's massive 750 grain bullet at 2800 fps would far much better, but it to will tumble at that short of distance. This is why the Germans and the Swedish went with 7mm and 6.5mm bullets. At close range, they to will tumble causing horrific injury to the enemy. Also rifling ratio to caliber and bullet length all play a major roll not just in accuracy alone but what it will do upon impact.

Well, they shouldn't open their yap and prove that they don't know squat! I never beat a man or woman down just because they don't know something, but sometimes when they open their cake hole and try to convince the world that they are an authority on something that they know absolutely nothing about.

Speaking of rifle trajectories, If you shoot it at 50, 100, and 200 yards and plot the trajectory and compare to ballistics tables/plots, you will have a good basis for predicting the 300 yard behavior. Generally, if a bullet passes through the right spots at those ranges, it will thread the needle at the greater ranges. Zeroing at only one range and predicting the shorter and longer ranges is pure folly.

Sorry to hear that Bee.

To bluecollerkid:

In 1970 I sporterized a Venzuelan Mauser 98 made by FN. I still have that rifle. It has taken 36 elk, 5 moose, 1 sheep, two caribou and I don't know how many deer and antelope. You have a rifle there that should handle anything in the contiguous 48 states and most of Canada/AK. My load in it is a 140 gr. bullet in front of 50 grains of 4350. It pushes the 140 grainer out at about 2900fps. This is the load that I've used since day one with that rifle. So, my answer is, I would load it hotter. You should be able to get close if not equal my load but the usual caveats about approaching the top-end loads definitely apply!

Suppose this salts a wound or two but ,.IMHO
most peopel shouldnt shoot at distances that put the recticle "outside the hair".Peroid
Which with moderne medium intesity rounds is 200 yds plus .
IE: Why they call it hunting and not shooting

An -06 sited at 50 yds has proven to be 12-14 iches low at 300 with 180 gr pills

It is the rare shooter who is competent and resposible
beyond this range.

And I dont like littel bullets worth a dam ,. in my limited experiance ( all bad) with little pi$$ ant bullets ,. they are much like shootng frisbys ,.
They float and drift and do all kinds of wierd sh(t.
High sectional density peroid the end for me .

Blue Collar kid ,. when I 1st started d rolling my own
I was advised to "load em conservative"
which resulted in horrendous groups.

About to give it up thinking I just didnt have the juice for this kind of thing . Out of frustration one day I jacked the loads up to some extent ,. which proved VERY much more accurate. I have since found most rounds are most acuarte at or near the top of the scale.

This of course is not a auggestion to go nuts.
and also to say beeeeee carefull !!!!
If you going to do it move up slowly and carefully testing all the way.

My expriance with a 7x57 is not extensive but I had a couple over the years . and the ones I had were better with 160's v/s something lighter.

I'm not much of a commentor here, but Beekeeper, God bless you and yours, and ease your pain soon. My Dad passed a little more than 3 years ago. It happens to us all at some point, and it sucks. I don't know you, but you have my sympathy and prayers.

To Ralph: Never have. Though I seem to remember a gun writer who shot elk with a .25/06 on a regular basis and never had a problem.

Dave, I have never been able to look through a Zeiss scope because I can not afford one. Sure wish I could though. I did see a pretty impressive scope by Burris at the show in Charlotte. It was the Eliminator laser scope. Was just wondering if you have ever used one and what you thought of it.

Beekeeper, My condolences to you and your family on the passing of your father.

I've watched Eskimo Indians drop Moose and Griz with 30-30's with 150 and 170 grain bullets like you hut them with a 30mm M242 Bushmaster!

yohan

Funny you brought up most people shouldn't shoot at distances that put the recticle "outside the hair".

Picture this before you start reading the below. It's a 200, 300 & 600 yard range match all reduced to 100 yards. The scoring ring size is in ratio to distance and just as hard, minus the elements and light effect and great for those with limited eyesight and restricted to short range cartridge which makes good training and above all introduction to High Power.

I wish I had a dollar on the Matches I ran, "you didn't count the score, you counted the hits within the target frame and boy, were they hell shooting up my frames!

heavy bullet for calibre is what made the 6,5x55 great ;)

Beekeeper, I am sorry for your loss. My own father died 15 years ago and I still find myself going to places we frequented together - and seeing his tough mick face again and feeling his warm hand on my shoulder.
My new FN/Baco .270 usually groups 130 grain Nosler Partitions w/57 grains of IMR-4831 @ a bit under .700
Using 150 grain Kodiaks with 58.0 grains of RL-22 I once grouped a .465 ( She usually groups these rds. @ about 1/2 MOA ). Right again, David !

Clay

With no sacrasm intended ( well maybe a little)
Being in a reasonable mood from a sh(ty week,.
( a little scotch and a decent steak from time to time helps: )

My reasoning for shorter more resposible ranges with heavier bullets. Is I think a product of doing most of my " deer " hunting in the upper midwest.

Where,.. believe it or not there are not a plethora of 100 200 ,. 300 hundred and 500 yd ranges.

The actual truth is most suburban based hunters find it difficult to find anything but a 50 yard range.

Most hunters also fire less than 50 practice rounds per year.
Thus the 50 yd range allows them to zero
(or as close as they can get ) at that distance and beleive with realtively good conciance ,. they can shoot (point blank ) at a deer sized ungulate,. sasquatch or in-law of various persuasions with good possibility for a kill out to 170- 200 yds depending on the flavor of the smoke plole.

I do not doubt or cast aspersions as to the abilities of Mr Petzal or others her in.
As I do beleive on a good day he,. maybe you and a few others others may well be able to shoot itty bitty bulltes at speeds of mock 4 +/- with such accuracy as to consistantly castrate galloping praire dogs at distances simply byond the abilities of normal mortals ,.which of course would include me.
IE : It takes significant practice,.menaing many many bullets and many many prairie dogs to achive this level of veterinary expertise.

If from a place of wide open spaces ( the west and south maybe ) where public land allows "Joe avergae" a place to shoot beyond 50 or 100 or 200 yds with out spending $500 per year for a range mambership ,.. more power to you or whom ever.
Times being what the are many hunters conssider 500 better spent things like heat and groceries or school supplies.

That said IMHO this long range ( bean field,. back fourty 300 yd plus) shooting talk,.. especially with light projectiles affects the inexaprinaced ( the future of our sport) waaaay more than presently realized.

Especially younger just starting hunters.
In such a way as to cause those who have NO practicle expectaton of mortally wounding an animal.
Such that it dies quicky and humainly and dosent crawl off to die ,. (un john deered) harvested,. to attempt shots that are simply irresponsible not to metion dangerous.

To prove this some years ago late in the deer season I was hunting some public land in Northren WI
Its a place of few deer big deer and its real pretty.
I just love to go there,. get a deer or not .

Because I find it interesting not to mention entertaining. I have often spoken with a number of young hunters over the years in te woods .
Said younger hunters sarying a variety of guns,. 30-30's and 35's a few 270's and 30-06's .338 mags :) up to and including believe it pr not 375 H&H

In one instance after watching 4 young hunters shoot at deer ,.. fully 500 yd distant I apprached and atarted a conversation.
The kid with the 30-30 was using 130 gr bullets ,.also 130's in the 270 ( jack oconnor deciple ) and 110 gr in the two carrying 30-06.
After a little small talk a few cuss words and exchange of smoking matrials to gain a minmal exceptance.

I asked what they figured was the range to the deer they just shot at,.. were upon one said
"Dont much matter with these light bullets "
Accoding to this magazion or that,. just shoot right at em out to 300 + yds ,.
When I politly suggested it might have been a lot futher than 300
I could see the indignation bred by ingnorance begin to surface .
So I again politly asked if they minded just out of curiousity if i ranged it for them.
One agreed and walked to where the deer disaperad into the bush ,. it was 540 yards !!
Granted it was clear as a bell with snow on the ground and down a fire lane so they looked closer
But I knew from experiance for sure over 400 and mybe 500.
As stated it was 540 yds.

When they heard it they didnt believe at at first.
So I said tell ya what its nearly noon and Im hungry
Knowing full well teh range finder weas fine i said I'll buy lunch if you;ll help me make sure this darn thing ( rangefinder) is wrkin right. That soud Ok to two of em so I said .
Wave in your buddy meet him at 250 steps and give me wave when your there ,.. they said ok,. the upshot was I ranged them at 230 yds ( 250 sreps ).

I bought lunch at a tavern down teh raod and we
talked,.it was clear at that point I was not in the company of Nasau's next crop of rocket scientists.
Yet what was also VERY very clear was that they were decent young men trying to imitate the "BIG SHOOTING AND HUNTING DOGS,in he magazines.
By the end they wee listening and
I suggested ( politely ) they all learn to judge 175 yds.
Zero at 50 and shoot no further for a while just to see how it went.
Betting if they did that they would kill far more deer be better hunters and have far more fun if they werent just guessing ,.

We parted amicably that day and I hope they are well and happy .
But I also hope the longrage gurues temper the talk with a little practicality.

As those who shoot a little know.
It is no small cost and no small time and mental commitment to get to the point where long range hunting is practical and safe,.
and younger hunters ,. need to be made aware of that.

Clay my man ,. its prooveable mathmatically
comparing ( shooting ) appels with appels that a projectile going fast stops faster than one going slower.
If the medium stopping said projectiles is consistant and stops said projectiles.

Having little to to with stabilization .
Which was also a common mith about the 5.56.
Energy is expended and thats it,. end of story
My old man (the guns smith / ballistician ) had that notion 40 yaras ago but couldnt prove it ,..

Which is I found out ( actually this afternoon ) the principal espoused by One Mr Kenny Jarret ,. and the hard cast hammer heads he sells for various antiquated rounds like the 45-70 .
Which it appears would allow commn folk such as my self
to shoot though buffalo and elephant heads and likley a sasquatche or two after passing through the traditional 2x4 cabilm wall construction : )

My condolences to Beekeeper.

I believe it's a case of inertia, and a heavier bullet going slower has more inertial force than a light bullet going fast, unless you take it to extremes, such as a grain of sand traveling at 200,000 Miles per second being able to pierce several inches of tempered steel. But at realistic firearm velocities heavier punches deeper.

So Elmer Keith studied physics...? Dave, you are getting as full of horsemanure as Ol' Elmer was. But thanks for the laugh; your sense of humor belies your dour image accompanying this blog.
I fell for this compensating fad myself. My Remington CDL SF in 257 Weatherby has a new Nikon Monarch 4x16 with BDC reticle. However, I intend to shoot this wheatfield rifle all the way out to 500 yards and see where those little circles under the cross hairs put those 110 gr accubonds. Do you have any experience with this scope?

Bee: My sympathy and prayers also go out to you and your family. Be thankful for the years you were able to spend with him and for what he taught you.

since where kind of on the subject, does anyone know of like a formula that could be used to find bullet drop?

Dave,
Thanks for the endorsement of the Nikon and the 257 advice. Our Texas Panhandle deer can get pretty big, not as large as Northeastern or Canadian whitetails, but upwards of 200 lbs. fairly regularly. I have dropped quite a few with a 25-06 and 100 gr. Barnes triple shocks at 3200-3300 fps. Every one went DRT; dead right there, dropping as if electrocuted even on behind the shoulder shots. I've done the same thing with a 7x57 and 140 gr. bullets. The 257 is for long range open wheat field shots. By the way, dour referred to your pic at the top of this blog. Ya shoulda smiled.

To Jim in Mo; I actually thought the same thing. The phenominon that you speak of is FFP (first focal plain) reticles, which are HUGELY popular in europe, where the reticle gets thicker and thinner at the varrious magnifications, keeping the reticle points true no matter the magnification. THere's only one problem I have with this, and thats that at very long range, the reticle can sometimes block out the target. And Bushnell has a few of its Elite/Tactical scopes in FFP configuration for a reasonable price.

Hey Yohan keep those stories coming,hahahahaha

"BeeKeeper;
Believe me, you will live through it.
In one short year I lost my Father, my mother and my sister.
It was so confusing, at first, then grief and then acceptence.
After acceptence, it all took on a new look.
a look of remembering, pride and love.Sometimes I will be sitting and smiling and my wife will ask me what I'm thinking.
I will be remembering the good, the love and things we all did togather. This puts me at peace.

Dr. Ralph,

My son is an engineer in the employ of a huge oil company (not BP). He was in Quatar for about a year and loved the place. Doha is a resort city there and the photos I've seen are amazing. Military HQ is located there mainly because it is the safest place in the Persian gulf. The border with Saudi Arabia is closed and guarded. There has been only one bombing there that I know of in all the time of this current war. Quatar is unique in that there are more foreigners working there than locals. There is no welfare or unemployed. Lose you job and you are deported. Crime is almost nonexistent. Unlike most muslim countries Christian churches are allowed. You should be happy he is going there, I would.

44 Magnum Ballistics in your 1911 style pistol!!!

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm

ingebrigtsen

129 grain in a 6.5x55 really reaches out!

To Wingshooter 54: That is a smile. At least by my standards.

yohan,
what sort of smoking materials did you exchange with the young men to be of the same understanding? just joking

JIM from MO
Believe it or not I dont smoke ( well,. not for long time) and when I did it was mostly just puffing a pipe.
Inhaling always made me so G D dizzy I couldnt walk
straight. So I was a bad smoker anyway .

But I learned to carry cigarettes for my brother who was forever running out 15 miles from no where.

To offer tobacco was generally accepted as a sighn of good will. So when hunting "WAAAY NORT"
I just always had em on me.
Dont ever remeber talking to anyone in the woods who tunred down the freindly offer of a smoke.

I also usually picked up some "chew".
Again not for me but for other expert planners in our camp.

Dont chew either ,. the one (and only ) time I tried it,. was Goose hunting in the late 70's
That also,. was bad idea.

Remeber like yesterday ,.buddy said try it ,. its good
The stuff had a pciture of native americasn on it so I took a wad,. stuffed it in ,.and it tasted good.

But no one told me not so swallow. JAAAAYSUS !!!

Having moved into knee deep water with my feet a foot of e mud ,.20-30 minuets later ( just getting light) ,.,.the Geese were comibg off the marsh IN DROVES.
They were so low you could hit em with a shovel ,. if one weas available.

But by then standing under thousands of e geese with loaded 12 ga,..
I was Sooooo f ing green,. sick and dizzy it was all I could manage not sh^t my pants,. fall over and drown.

Dont smoke and dont chew and I guarantte .
Very large nasty people would need to break both my arms and start on my legs to get any more of that sh^t in my mouth : )

I get green just thinking about it ; )

Have a good week !!

Wam
while I think you are correct the intent
(and practical application ) must also be considered.

When in college I made money as carpentry "framer" in summer.

As low on the totem ple as I was ,.( a hammer supported by two legs to the "general".
I still remember looking at blueprints and thinking ,. what archetechtual genius drew this ? Simply cant be built ( this way) ,.
It couldnt and it was changed ,. but not without a truck load of BS .and nearly costing me my job.

The lead carpenter on the job finally said YOHAN Im gona buy you a beer then said to the "super".
Change it now or chage it later ,. waay less to do it now so we dont have to tear down half the building later with this mistake.

Since then I always listen until I figure out just which direction the Bs is coming from.

Most info on here is well intended and most of the bloggers well met or would be.

Yaw Yaw some can't read the isntructions on a boot heal
Or maybe never had the chance .
So ,.. credit where its due ,.this is also a learning platform ,.some are still learning ( like myslef)
so lets help out where we can.

Wam

I agree ,. but MOST hunters cant tell 150 from 250 under many conditions. Rangefinders help BUT !
When I suggested to the kids to zero at fifty and shoot out to 175 I was because I have done that MANY MANY times with very good results within those paramiters.
IE it was SAFE ( reasonable ) place to start.

I perosonally (almost never ) shoot past 200 yds .
But an example is this ( my ) 8x57 using 153 gr ,..
chronoed at 2900fps +/- zeroed at 5o yds will be low about 12 inches at three hundred and ,. point F ing blank out to 250 yds ,.+/- depending temp ( cold reduces performance )
When and if I shoot at three hundred.
I'm trying to hit a coffe cup consistantly. If I can do that the beasties are in deep actuarial cacca !!

Obviously one needs to shoot the distnaces between to be responcible. But the reality is 90+% of hunters either can't,. dont,. or wont.
Which is why I stump for the idea that limiting hunting shots to 200 yds and under ( for the majority ) is a good resposibnle idea .

Del ~kansas
Some fool woke me up wrong number ( no other way to get it ) looking for his girlfriend ,.
Who is not here and will never be here ,. so Im up ,. so I checked in .
Every now and then ( tonight ) I still have a dream about a fire fight wont bore you with details but Im alwasy tired the next day. So tomorrow ( today ) is gonna suck.

I dont know,. my contact with German women has been all over the map
From some giant A$$ed loud mothed brune hilda in Panama Panama. Who nrealy ran me over in vokes wagon .
Who deserved 3 0r 4 straight rights to her fat lips
Which was as close to ( sriking ) knocking a woman out as ive ever come ,.
She got that after a minute so she shut up .
But man was that close!!

To one who was so sweet and sexy it was hard for me to beleive she even knew i existed .
And she was crazy about me. ( Go figure)

Maybe one of 3 or 4 I should have considered marrying and didnt. Blond with big headlights and a sumptious ,. Well,. you get the picture .

But Ive been around Norwegian women ( dam near stubborn as Germans ) and French women who I find facinating as well as Irish women but the religion thing gets in the way and and English women.

All just women really ,.. and I have a particular type I attracted to, so thats a limitation.
But also just is what it is. I do not chase short fat cartridges ??

But as much as anything I think its the familys they come from . Really ,.. as much as anything

Of late I have sworn off ritch B!tches ,. cuase sooner or later if they dont get EXACTLY what they want EXACTLY WHEN they want it,.. Its soap opera / dramma time .
I'm too old for that sh!t now and I was too old for it when I was 30

The German woman you refer to was playing,.
( with you ) but if it helped you,. more power to you both.
that said I wouldnt take her to a worm wrestling macth cause she was not normal in her persuit of men .

I know / knew a columbian woman of the same ilk ,. good times ,. but not for the long haul.
These people if you let em become very expensive emotionally and monitarily so from my section in the bleachers ,. your better off to have moved on.

The one I spoke of recently is really good looking but she is also really stubborn and bossy ,.
Being honest we as men know,. some of that is cute .
They are paying attention to us .Right ?

But too much is too much ya know.?
I dont need a momy,. I can cook better than most women '
I dont sew but who cares thats what tailors are for .
I dont have a steady house keeping crew becuase hat flies smack in the face of my blue collar background ,
So acsasionally my hovel is less than perfect .
But is nevr bad
I aint broke and I dont take too many orders so
If I stay single for the duration I do

What I find less than enchanting is when they think they got you,. they start acting pissy for no reason just o test the waters see how far gone you are.
Which is when up to now they get the option to snap out of it or take a hike YUK YUK .
But so far so good so well see nothing ventured nothing gained ,. but too much BS as just that

At least she shoots a little yuk yuk

Have a good day .