


February 19, 2010
Can a Young Pup Learn from an Older Bird Dog?
By David DiBenedetto

I got an invitation to go quail hunting last weekend at Brays Plantation in Sheldon, S.C. I’m a newbie quail hunter, but I jumped at the chance, of course. The birds were thick, the weather was perfect, and, surprisingly, my shot wasn’t too far off.
My host, Jim Davis, has two Brittanys. One is a 3-year old named Prince (in the photo above) and the other, Di, is 8 months old. Both dogs are in the field about two days a week. The younger dog hasn’t had much training but performs great. Davis is sure that the pup has picked up some skills by running with the older, more experienced dog.
It’s an interesting theory. I’ve heard some people swear by the idea that a young pup can learn from an older bird dog, however, many others think the entire notion is bunk. I proposed the question to Steve Snell, owner of Gun Dog Supply, and veritable wizard when it comes to training bird dogs. Here’s some of what he had to say:
Yes, a young dog can learn from the older dog but you have to be careful about a few things. First, you need the right older dog. I have an English Pointer that I like to run young pups with since I know she will get them into wild birds. This gives the young dog a better chance at getting around singles and having a chance to learn.
Once I get the young dog on a few wild birds, I get it some ground time on its own. Otherwise, you could end up with a chronic "backer." Some young dogs can get lazy or intimidated by the older dog and they wait around for them to do all the work.
You really have to base it on the individual dog. I have four pups under 7 months. One of them is doing well enough to get ground time with the older dogs. He is finding and pointing his own birds even with bigger older dogs on the ground. The other three are still in the puppy stage and are not ready yet.
I’m curious what you bird-doggers think. Can the young bird dog learn from the older dog? Have you had similar experiences? Let’s hear about it.
(For those who are interested, I did bring Pritch on the along. I kept her on a short lead for most of the afternoon, but set her loose toward the end of the hunt. She quickly fell into place and actually flushed her first quail…whether she meant to do it or not is another question!)
Comments (17)
Had an uncle that trained pointers, he thought young dogs could learn from old. Good and bad habits.
Young pups can learn from the old dogs.
My training partner runs Champion-class bird dogs and puppies while my Labs watch. He's had a lot of dogs, and one of them is a former National Number Three. He puts them on the ground and lets them go and they do what they're programmed to do. There is no training and they are incredibly good. My boys have learned a great deal of attitude and technique from them.
If a pup can't learn from an old dog it ain't worth it's salt.
I haven't done any bird dog training. My dad has trained our Brittany and I have spent a lot of time at dog day cares. Brittanys are very smart (yet can be complete knuckleheads) and I think they will learn from older dogs. One big issue is that they will also learn the bad habits. So I would only want to train a pup with a very experienced well trained older dog.
My grandfather had a pointer he sent off to school. A one in a lifetime dog. He was amazing! So my grandpa bought a brittany and she learned from the pointer. At the end of the pointers days you could see how the Brit had picked up so much from her.
Young dogs can definitely learn from older dogs. However, they also need their own time to shine. I took my 9 month old Weimaraner out with my buddy and his 3 year old Vizsla. Once a covey broke up we went our separate ways and both dogs got to chase their own birds. My 9 month old dog worked those singles like i've seen 5 year old dogs do. It was a truly impressive sight and I was unbelievably pround with 5 birds in my bag at the end of the day.
This is a training method still in use today but like
force fetch if you dont know what you are doing it is
better off left to a pro like Steve Snell.Through many
years of training he knows what to avoid and what to look
for before a problem starts.What is taught is easier with
this method than to unteach.Just like a young child out
with friends learning to ride a bike the young dog wants
to learn to hunt make sure its the right training
learned.
I don't know about bird dogs, but with coon dogs that is almost the only way to do it.
Of course they can good and bad habits.
Every dog I have had has learned to hunt behind an older dog. Basics can be taught in the back yard with, but the real learning comes in the field. My 9 month old English Pointer just completed her first quail season hunting behind her mother, and the pup shows promise to be much better than the elder.
I have two black labs who were essentially trained separate from each other. Two years ago I took a job in Montana while the family stayed here in Canada. After my mother died of cancer there I was getting blue so decided to get a lab pup. My wife had a fit and wanted to send our 3 year-old lab out instead. But that was out of the question as it would have distressed our autistic son. I humorously threatened to seek companionship in the local bars and she quickly capitulated. The pup was gangbusters for uplands even from three months old. We had a great season before I returned to Canada. The older dog took to the pup like she was her own. Last fall was their first season hunting together and I just played it by ear. Pearl had been raised on goose hunting and Opal at first deferred to her. Suprisingly, Pearl (older dog) allowed Opal to "help" with the retrieves. Pearl did the real work while Opal would assist carrying the honker's head or wing. Opal was used to breaking at the shot when upland hunting and Pearl quickly fell into the bad habit by example. It didn't take much to get them straightened out - they're good dogs. Phesant hunting in Montana later in the season was an interesting turn of events. Opal remembered our old haunts and was very excited but immediately deferred to Pearl, staying mostly on the older dog's track as she worked the field with her nose. I simply could not get them to break up. Several of us were hunting and they refused to separate. About half way through the second day, they switched roles and Pearl let Opal take the lead. It went on that way through the entire week, shifting from one to the other. When a bird went down they'd both go for it, but curiously, if Pearl got to them first she would give the birds up to Opal! With one exception: a rooster fell in a slough and Pearl had to swim for it. She would not give that one up. However, she let Opal hang on till I had it in hand, still alive and undamaged. Anyway, in this case it is difficult to say who has been learning what from who.
I should also mention that Pearl almost immediately recognized Opal's outstanding nose. She'll keep her eye on the pup all the time when they're making a blind retrieve. She let's Opal find the geese and then runs over to pick it up. It's amazing how she can tell when Opal's onto a bird.
You bet- I have been fortunate with my Labs- for me, the most important learning is how a pup absorbs manners and in-home behaviors from an older dog. My first dog, Woody, was put to sleep in 2004- but not before he "taught" my then-pup Crosby the house manners....lie on your dog beds (which we have in most rooms of the house)- stay off the furniture- stay out of any kind of food or garbage- barking is at a minimum- and fetching and chasing the tennis ball and gun dog training is the 2nd most fun thing a dog can do...second only to working the cattails of the Dakotas in late season for hunkered-down roosters.
Yes it will work. I have done the same thing with two horses, one younger and one older. The young one will learn from the older one when trail riding or walking down a paved road. What to do when a dog comes running up toward you barking. Cars pass you going faster than the horse likes, what do do when you walk up on another dead animal. As I pack out a kill on a horse this system works very well.
Tom
Gunsellers.com
Sandy City Ut, 84094
801.486.2727
I've seen younger dogs become lazy and be dependent on the older dogs finding the birds and then they'll just come in to honor the older dog's point and/or fight for the retrieving rights. When I hunted a young Springer with my older Brittany, the Springer learned to listen for the beeper, signaling that there's a bird nearby. When hunted alone, the Springer performs well but when hunted with the Brittany, the Brittany found the birds 90% of the time.
i still didn't have dog, some day my dad say will bought me one, its great news for me
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Had an uncle that trained pointers, he thought young dogs could learn from old. Good and bad habits.
Young pups can learn from the old dogs.
My training partner runs Champion-class bird dogs and puppies while my Labs watch. He's had a lot of dogs, and one of them is a former National Number Three. He puts them on the ground and lets them go and they do what they're programmed to do. There is no training and they are incredibly good. My boys have learned a great deal of attitude and technique from them.
I haven't done any bird dog training. My dad has trained our Brittany and I have spent a lot of time at dog day cares. Brittanys are very smart (yet can be complete knuckleheads) and I think they will learn from older dogs. One big issue is that they will also learn the bad habits. So I would only want to train a pup with a very experienced well trained older dog.
My grandfather had a pointer he sent off to school. A one in a lifetime dog. He was amazing! So my grandpa bought a brittany and she learned from the pointer. At the end of the pointers days you could see how the Brit had picked up so much from her.
Young dogs can definitely learn from older dogs. However, they also need their own time to shine. I took my 9 month old Weimaraner out with my buddy and his 3 year old Vizsla. Once a covey broke up we went our separate ways and both dogs got to chase their own birds. My 9 month old dog worked those singles like i've seen 5 year old dogs do. It was a truly impressive sight and I was unbelievably pround with 5 birds in my bag at the end of the day.
This is a training method still in use today but like
force fetch if you dont know what you are doing it is
better off left to a pro like Steve Snell.Through many
years of training he knows what to avoid and what to look
for before a problem starts.What is taught is easier with
this method than to unteach.Just like a young child out
with friends learning to ride a bike the young dog wants
to learn to hunt make sure its the right training
learned.
I don't know about bird dogs, but with coon dogs that is almost the only way to do it.
If a pup can't learn from an old dog it ain't worth it's salt.
Of course they can good and bad habits.
Every dog I have had has learned to hunt behind an older dog. Basics can be taught in the back yard with, but the real learning comes in the field. My 9 month old English Pointer just completed her first quail season hunting behind her mother, and the pup shows promise to be much better than the elder.
I have two black labs who were essentially trained separate from each other. Two years ago I took a job in Montana while the family stayed here in Canada. After my mother died of cancer there I was getting blue so decided to get a lab pup. My wife had a fit and wanted to send our 3 year-old lab out instead. But that was out of the question as it would have distressed our autistic son. I humorously threatened to seek companionship in the local bars and she quickly capitulated. The pup was gangbusters for uplands even from three months old. We had a great season before I returned to Canada. The older dog took to the pup like she was her own. Last fall was their first season hunting together and I just played it by ear. Pearl had been raised on goose hunting and Opal at first deferred to her. Suprisingly, Pearl (older dog) allowed Opal to "help" with the retrieves. Pearl did the real work while Opal would assist carrying the honker's head or wing. Opal was used to breaking at the shot when upland hunting and Pearl quickly fell into the bad habit by example. It didn't take much to get them straightened out - they're good dogs. Phesant hunting in Montana later in the season was an interesting turn of events. Opal remembered our old haunts and was very excited but immediately deferred to Pearl, staying mostly on the older dog's track as she worked the field with her nose. I simply could not get them to break up. Several of us were hunting and they refused to separate. About half way through the second day, they switched roles and Pearl let Opal take the lead. It went on that way through the entire week, shifting from one to the other. When a bird went down they'd both go for it, but curiously, if Pearl got to them first she would give the birds up to Opal! With one exception: a rooster fell in a slough and Pearl had to swim for it. She would not give that one up. However, she let Opal hang on till I had it in hand, still alive and undamaged. Anyway, in this case it is difficult to say who has been learning what from who.
I should also mention that Pearl almost immediately recognized Opal's outstanding nose. She'll keep her eye on the pup all the time when they're making a blind retrieve. She let's Opal find the geese and then runs over to pick it up. It's amazing how she can tell when Opal's onto a bird.
You bet- I have been fortunate with my Labs- for me, the most important learning is how a pup absorbs manners and in-home behaviors from an older dog. My first dog, Woody, was put to sleep in 2004- but not before he "taught" my then-pup Crosby the house manners....lie on your dog beds (which we have in most rooms of the house)- stay off the furniture- stay out of any kind of food or garbage- barking is at a minimum- and fetching and chasing the tennis ball and gun dog training is the 2nd most fun thing a dog can do...second only to working the cattails of the Dakotas in late season for hunkered-down roosters.
Yes it will work. I have done the same thing with two horses, one younger and one older. The young one will learn from the older one when trail riding or walking down a paved road. What to do when a dog comes running up toward you barking. Cars pass you going faster than the horse likes, what do do when you walk up on another dead animal. As I pack out a kill on a horse this system works very well.
Tom
Gunsellers.com
Sandy City Ut, 84094
801.486.2727
I've seen younger dogs become lazy and be dependent on the older dogs finding the birds and then they'll just come in to honor the older dog's point and/or fight for the retrieving rights. When I hunted a young Springer with my older Brittany, the Springer learned to listen for the beeper, signaling that there's a bird nearby. When hunted alone, the Springer performs well but when hunted with the Brittany, the Brittany found the birds 90% of the time.
i still didn't have dog, some day my dad say will bought me one, its great news for me
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