Concerned Soldier,

I appreciate your sentiments but please do not be offended. I did not seek to lecture you on your duties; I merely wished to remind you that the duty to defend and uphold the constitution applies even to those whose plights are not exactly in-line with the majority/government view at the moment. I did not mean to imply by my comments that you, specifically, were derelict in your duty; I was more concerned with your sentiment (expressed via your agreement with Shane) that only those people who seemed legit should be allowed to own firearms.

As for DP's addition of this commentary to this blog, it's true that it is not strictly on topic in re. specific topics relating to firearm operation etc. But I must disagree with you that this is not the place for said discussion.

If one is interested in the operation and performance of their firearms, then one surely would be interested in retaining a right to possess those firearms. The ATF and its various escapades, including Waco, are all relevant to that topic. It's mission is to restrict and infringe on our right to own firearms as much as possible and therefore, ALL GUN OWNERS that are interested in preserving their rights should be concerned when the ATF goes on rampage and murders citizens of the US.

I'll tell you this and then leave the floor for everyone else to flame me or praise me as they see fit. I was recently involved in an argument with a fellow gun owner who thought that the government's infringement on someone's 2nd Amendment rights was permissible where the reasons for said infringement were "reasonable." (We had a long conversation on what constituted "reasonable"; too much to relate here) To make a long story short, I told him that, "Either one supports the 2nd Amendment that the 'People have a right to bear arms,' or they don't. There is no "middle ground" where some people can own firearms if they fit some idealistic mold of what a firearm's owner should be or the firearms are ones that society feels have a 'sporting use.'" I adamantly hold this view and refuse to let those who assert that the 2nd Amendment only applies to "some people" or "some types of firearms" off the hook.

Thus, I believe that DP's commentary on the ATF and their actions regarding gun owners in very pertinent to the discussion of firearms, their operation, and their ownership.

Saw the unedited vids from the atf and fbi from theire assault on the davidians.. although there might have been something that can be considered bad about theire behaviour as a "cultist" organisation, the means they where met with was nothing short of what is today used on mujahedin in bagdad.. They ainth gonna tell u how CS gas affects little children when they saturate a building with it, or that it will act as a combustible when consentrated and a flash grenade is thrown in after that its gonna cause a flashfire.. or that by IR cam that theire little tanks ran over and mauled several "warm" bodies.. that 2 year old children was tormented by the atf and fbi by deadly consentrations of CS gas that caused them to spasm in horrible uncontrollable deaththroes is to me unconceivable in a "civilised" society..
watch a few documentaries about it and seek out the thruth by yourself be4 making an ass of yourself by stupid statements..
here is one 4 yall to start with..
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4206713/The_Waco_Massacre

Bella-
I stand in awe of your last post. I did not think you could become more inane in your liberal ramblings, but you have amazed me. Madam,you have sunk to a depth unattainable by whale feces!

First, the BD's beliefs have nothing to do with their right to possess arms or the ATF's raid on their compound.Their beliefs are protected by the 1st, 9th, and 10th Amendments whether we, the POTUS, or the ATF like it or not.

The ATF was there to SERVE A SEARCH WARRANT not to declare all-out war; and instead of seeking a "knock" warrant that would require them to knock and deliver the warrant before entering, they sought a "no knock" warrant that allows them forced entry into the premises to conduct the search. Nevermind that the constitutional standard for procuring a "no-knock" warrant is that the evidence sought during the search is easily destroyed or disposed of (i.e. drugs, papers, computer files, etc.) Firearms are not so easily destroyed or disposed of.

To Shane & Concerned Soldier,

What the ATF did here is very comparable to what is going on in Iran albeit not on the scale that Iran is undertaking. Waco and Ruby Ridge were signals to the rest of us that would stand-up and the gov. was saying, "This is what will happen if you defy us, your rights be damned." This is especially pertinent to you, Concerned Soldier, because the premise underlying the constitution and the foundation of our republic is that we have rights to certain things regardless of whether others approve of our exercise of those rights. As a soldier, it is your duty to defend those people. True, all rights are subject to restrictions based on COMPELLING GOVERNMENT INTERESTS. The Constitution is a document designed to limit government and the every person entering the government has a duty to protect and uphold. I can't say that most people working in .gov today will fulfill that duty/oath.

But let's take this argument a bit further shall we? The gov. is now proposing or attempting to deny sales of firearms to those on the no-fly list. Considering that the list is secret and the process to remove one's name from the list is arduous and uncertain, do you want the gov to ban your ownership of firearms because (and I am borrowing Shane's language here in part), "I can do without heavily armed [people suspected of terrorism]." Are you comfortable with that? Afterall, people who have no connection to terrorism, who are Senators in our Congress, who are fine and upstanding citizens, have their names on that list and would effectively be banned from owning firearms. Once you say that, "I'm OK with... [insert aggressive gov. action here]" then you are giving them carte blanche to repeat said actions in tenuously related circumstances in the future. I'm not comfortable with that.

Mike Diehl;

Locals were of the opinion that a single sheriff's deputy could have walked to the door, rung the bell, and handed Koresh the warrant. His people owned no illegal firearms and were not violent; they shopped in town and waved at the neighbors. The ATF went in shooting and Koresh's people shot back. If someday your home, within which you have a right to be, is surrounded and a bunch of ninja dressed gunmen break down your door slinging lead as they come, you may find yourself doing the same.

Concerned Soldier:

God help us all when someone thinking you are off your rocker equals a legal license to kill. Has not our elected President, Barak Obama, attributed 'clinging to guns and religion' to psychological factors unrelated to liking guns and having faith? Tolerance used to mean getting along with people you DON'T agree with. Those were the days.

Bella:

Equating a few arrests at the RNC with shooting and burning 83 people to death (none of whom had been charged with anything, many of whom were innocent women and children) is a bit of a stretch, isn't it? How many charred bodies were lying there when the RNC ended? Comparison by degree can be useful, but you must be joking to think that missing a meal equals being burned to death.

RC Dunn;

Nobody here wants his kid to grow up to be David Koresh or join a cult. The point is that what was done at Waco was unnecessary in every way. Nobody had to die, not ATF agents, not innocent children. The actions of the ATF virtually assured that people would die, and the responsible parties walked without so much as having their hair mussed; the media almost made Janet Reno a hero for forthrightly admitting her mistakes.
After which she spent the next seven years in office seeing no reason to charge Bill Clinton with any crimes or misdemeanors. We can all disagree, but

Shane, you are really missing the point of principle that has been brought forth. The BD's probably did not consider themselves a cult either. I surely do not want to support their "suspected" behavior. I personally think that David Koresh was not at all right in the head, BUT THE POINT IS... there was not any shred of due process involved in what transpired and it was the unthinkable performed by our own government! Those responsible agents and Janet Reno might as well have been Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini- and the BD's were crushed underfoot!
The damndest of it all was that we will never know if David Koresh really knocked up all those 13 year olds, because the Fu**ing Agents burned them all, ALIVE!
Don't even get me started on the Weavers and Ruby Ridge. I'm from Idaho, and that guy could have been any one of thousands of Idahoans- he was just unlucky, really.
So, when it comes down to it, it does not matter if you are next, or I am next. If we stand by and let the government accuse, prosecute, and execute ANYONE without the due process of law based on the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, we are not living as Americans were meant to live. Doesn't that bother you? It bothers the hell out of me. Happy Independence Day, hopefully it is not the last for you, me, or any other American Citizen.

I disagree with Shane, "Sure it was handled badly, but on the other hand, I could do without heavily armed messianic cults."

Who Makes the distinction between "religion" and "cult"?
What if the Government decides that your Evangelical Free Church down the street is a "cult"?
Or the Mormon Church is a Cult? What about Catholics? They seem cult like to me........

It's the same as allowing the Govt decide what guns we should be allowed to have, and besides, cult or not, if it has a religious basis isn't it protected by freedom of religion? Or aren't we allowed to have certain religions, just like we aren't allowed to have certain weapons.
Let's face it, we are losing ALL of our freedoms, slowly, one piece at a time. And if we don't put a stop to it Russians will have more freedom than us soon!

As a born in Texas (Texan first, American second) United States citizen, I was born with the right to own and carry guns. There is nothing in the 2nd amendment that limits how many or what kind I can have. Neither Waco nor Ruby Ridge are the only horror stories involving the BATF. There have been many others.

Oh, here's another Winston Churchill quote: "There are two things people with weak stomachs should never observe; the making of sausage and the making of laws."

By the way Dave, your story and comments are revelant today. The mainstream media has sold out as far as objective, ethical reporting and everyone needs to be aware of this. It is one of the first steps towards dictatorial government. I seriously doubt if any journalist today even knows what the Society of Professional Journalists Code of Ethics is. If you want an example of slanted, anti 2nd amendment observations, watch (if you can stomach it) MSNBC.
If that is not convincing, catch CBS, ABC, just about everyone except Fox News; which the present Beltway regime would love to shut down.

“a jack-booted group of fascists who are perhaps as large a danger to American society as I could pick today.”
-Rep. John Dingell (D-MI) in 1983, describing the ATF.
Very apt comment in light of the gleeful disclosure by the Houston Chronicle that those same thugs are wandering around Houston
questioning people about certain types of firearm purchases. Sad thing is, most folks do not know that they have no reason to answer any question by the Feds about any legal firearms purchase, nor any obligation to show firearms if requested. This is a clear violation of law and abuse of power on several levels, but the far left Chronicle wants to praise these jack-booted thugs.

Reluctantly, I pitch in.
I am appalled at what happened at Waco, and on Ruby ridge.
The media painted a picture to our nation of demented psychotic maniacs holed up in remote lairs, waiting to shoot their neighbors, and steal suckling babes and brainwash them into the cult. And most people bought the line of B.S.
The feds F***ed up on levels that are still not fully understood, even by themselves, and murdered innocent Americans- with no remorse or justice served. When the laundry came out in the wash- both situations were not at all what they were painted to be- the ATF and FBI were on witch hunts, nothing more.
And what? Nobody had the guts or sense to make any kind of effective interference, peaceable or otherwise on behalf of BDs or Randy Weaver. It makes me sick just thinking about the implications this has for my (and your)freedom.
The question I pose is this: what kind of America do you want to live in? One that sits on its ass and eats liberal crap sandwiches fed to you by the shovel-full on the television from stupid people who sell fear for a heafty living? Or do you want the kind of America that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Paul Revere, and so many of the greatest minds that ever lived not only framed, but risked life and limb to secure? (Shane and Concerned_Soldier) Just put yourself on the other side of the M1 Abrams the ATF might use to violate your freedoms and see if you would want your neighbors to stand and fight for freedom against “a jack-booted group of fascists who are perhaps as large a danger to American society as I could pick today.”
(-Rep. John Dingell (D-MI) in 1983, describing the ATF.)
Or would you rather be written off as "a whacko that never really had those rights in the first place because you don't fit "the mold""? Who's America is this anyways- mine, yours, or ours?

A couple of thoughts...
1) My father-in-law, a man who has never committed a crime more serious than speeding, was once on the watch list because of his extensive business travel. Because he is a "terrorism suspect", we should definitely keep him from buying firearms, right Shane? In all seriousness, there is a novel concept called innocent until proven guilty. It can be found in that thing called the Constitution. You should look it up sometime.
2) As for the Davidian "cult", I don't think anyone here is arguing in support of their alleged behavior. What we are pointing out is that as Americans we disagree with our government BBQing dozens of our fellow citizens, including women and children, and one one being held accountable. We disagree with FBI snipers killing an innocent woman and her son at Ruby Ridge and no one being held accountable. Two hundred years ago we fought against this kind of oppresive government. Now too many of us sit back and say "well they were cultists" and then stick our heads firmly into the sand.

Thanks for blog topic Dave-
Face it; This was not a shining moment for our 2nd Amendment rights, and much innocent blood was shed for no good reason. I don't believe anyone could make an argument about this being nothing more then a big cluster f**k by the government. The decision should have been made to defuse, walk away, and give time to take the place peacefully, but it was not meant to be....
My brother-in-law was in Federal LE at the time and was making ready to be sent as a "relief" to make-up part of the assault group when the final assault order was given, so it touched home for us.
NEVER FORGET I say, and remember that no government is perfect and hope our leaders have learned from this mistake.

Clinton and Reno are at the head of a long list of Democrat screw ups that have not been held accountable in the lib press or anyplace. Compare that to Repub screw ups that always have to resign, go to prison, etc. Remember the Dem congressman from New Orleans with the refrigerator full of money. Even our local version of Pravda the KC Star reports scandals as either Republican or no mention of party (which means Democrat).This just in, the worst comedian I've ever seen stole a seat in the Senate right under everyone's nose.

Dave, Good thread, lots of comments from guys more articulate than me. Clinton and Reno are water over the dam. We need to watch the current batch a leftist scum to make sure there's not a repeat.

First, I think this is germane for David P to write about; without protections in the face of growing opposition, we would not have a shooting page for David to write about. More, the debate brings to the front why this issue was so important that it obtained its own slot in the Bill of Rights.

Second, Waco was a clear attempt to throw mud -- and blood -- at the right protected by the second amendment. Discredit it, then you don't have to listen to complaints that the right is being disparaged and infringed. One of our greatest threats facing us is the loss of the protections of our rights simply based on whether they are "popular." The Bill of Rights is intended to highlight rights that must be protected even when they are UNPOPULAR. We have seen freedom of petition (anti-lobbying laws), press (campaign reform laws where groups -- assembly, which includes financial support -- publish information about candidates that are adverse to their interests). There is increasing pressure against protections against unwarranted search and seizure, as well as restrictions to removal of rights without a hearing where we can confront our accusers (using a "no-fly" list as a basis to deny firearms purchases, as well as closed hearings involving illegal immigrants [remember -- the purpose is to protect unpopular rights, and this is guaranteed through the 14th amendment]).

Very appropriate for the 4th of July!

Dan

Concerned Soldier, lighten up son. I know for a fact that several of us,you are asking what we did for our country (myself included). Are RETIRED fron one branch or another of the military. (Army in my case with 29 years 27 AD 2 Reserve.)

Which means counting my time in Latrines,Paylines and chow halls probably amounts to more than your active duty time.

Not to mention overseas time and other nasty places.

Having said that We all thank you for your current service, and I mean no disrespect to you.

You know, I didn't even think that DP was making a point about accuracy in reporting and I'm glad someone pointed that out. Both discussions taking place above are worthwhile so I'll comment on this newly developing front.

Regarding the accuracy of reporting by the mainstream media (MSM), my wife works for a large news organization (I'm not gonna say which one so don't ask :)) and I can say to a REASONABLE CERTAINTY that "accuracy in reporting" is NOT the really the issue - news stations need to be accurate, otherwise they can be sued for defamation/libel. The real issue with the MSM is the innate bias of its reporters, editors, producers etc. The industry is dominated by democrats and saturated with liberal indoctrination. So, while many reporters think they are reporting the "truth" "accurately" they fail to realize the bias that is evident in their LANGUAGE. Combine this with a stubborn unwillingness to rethink their work when faced with criticism, big egos, and an established union-based hierarchy of protection and you have a blanket that keeps them warm in the certainty that they are correct and the complaining public is just that, a bunch of complainers who don't like the facts. Faced with this kind of certainty and insulation from critical analysis of their work (after all, who analyzes and critiques the reporters to keep them honest?) it's almost impossible to convince them that the language they use to describe an event or situation "tips it's hat" to their bias.

However, there are news/media organizations that are blatantly and openly biased such as the NY Times and the Wall Street Journal - everyone knows it, they know it, and they're fine with it - and they do this to attract a certain market (NY Times focuses on lib politicos and the common socially-conscious libtard in NYC; WSJ focuses naturally on the business sector which, by nature, is more conservative albeit not always in-line with traditional conservative values) because it's a mechanism of survival - the blood (from rampant politicide) attracts readers (a.k.a predators hungry for a kill) and thereby boosts the bottom-line. While this is somewhat true in the MSM, especially broadcast media, their bias is not openly acknowledged or recognized within the industry but it shows through their characterization of events and people (as well as their selective reporting).

I encourage you to not get discouraged however. The NY Times and its writers have been known for a while now as producers of a piece of commie rag not fit to wipe your arse with. The real battle is for attention: How many people here read National Review, the WSJ, etc.? Vote with your pocket-books and stop supporting (by reading/listening/watching) the libtard drivel. Get your news elsewhere (like I do, from the web) and soon all of em will be out-of-business. Who knows, you may watch less TV then and have less stress, therefore, having more time for worthwhile things in your life. :)

I think you have to separate "support for these people", who creep me out as well, and the way a heavy handed government dealt with their offenses.

Criminals should not be allowed to hide behind the cloak of religion. On second thought, wasn't the concept of right and wrong basically taken from the Bible?

Yes the Feds launched incendiary riot control gas shells into the Davidian compound, an incredibly stupid tactic, but there were reports that Koresh had gasoline poured in the halls and wanted apocalpse and martyrdom. The Feds great stupidity was giving him exactly what he wanted, the immortality of martyrdom. Again I see the major issue being the paramilitarization of law enforcement in this nation as the antecedent for the Waco disaster as well as other farces I don't need to mention. The government is supposed to stem from the will and authority ceded nby the people of the nation, that is why we are supposedly a democracy. When agencies of the government feel the need to repress any group with armoured vehicles and toxic gas things have gone too far and a wedge is driven between the people and the government that theoretically represents our will. While I don't think much of cults, and believe such organizations that suck the will from their members (and otherwise score highly on the ABCDEF) should be shut down, I don't believe there is any context except open rebellion and bodies in the streets where it is justified that citizens be assaulted by storm troopers in armour. Repression is not a liberal value no more than it is an American value.
As far as Ruby Ridge goes, the guy was entrapped by the Feds and they Murdered his dog his son and his wife. Totally wrong, and evil besides, but it goes further back than that, The FBI deployed M113APCs at Pine Ridge when the Lakotah attempted to take control of their own reservation. Leonard Peltier still is imprisoned for a supposed shooting he could not have committed. Hypocracy, duplicity and excessive force, our government has no busness murdering anybody, not in my name at least...

Amen Dave! A sad day in America's history. Close to the Fiasco at Ruby Ridge with Randy Weaver. I think that was handled by the same Keystone agents and administration.

I was hoping someone smarter than me would address this exact situation and be able to put it into words.

The quoted comment by John Dingle applied then and now today, it is applicable again. Sure the facists have not gased or shot anyone (that we know of) YET, but give them enough time and no resistance to their policies and it will probably come to pass. And, I agree, Bill Clinton, by his "I'm not in charge" attitude and Janet Reno, by her direct order, are murderers and should be proscuted. But of course they get a pass and it will never happen...till later.

JC Dun and Mike make great points about some of the comments made in original post by Shane, okay it wasn't properly done by the ATF or FBI, but again, these guys were off their rocker, the cheese fell off their cracker a while ago, get it?!?!

Alot of us own guns and alot of them, and a lot of ammo too! But the key is we are responsible with them and our personal and professional lives, we don't do some of the things these two individuals did.

That is why they were targeted by the Gov't.

Moishe,
Thanks for your service, I do get a little fired up! Sometimes it is bad and sometimes it is good!! Thanks for reminding me. My wife would call me the PTSD monster!! I don't drink as much as I used to either, that helps alot!!

NC30-06 makes a great point, I did lose sight of that. Thanks for bringing us back around.

Again, it is great to have a heated patriotic discussion.

v/R

C_S

Thanks, Dave, for the observations in this blog. Just to read the responses shows how raw this nerve still is, and reminds us to review the rights and privileges of power...including our own.

Point of note, my wife and I were traveling through Texas soon after the Government burned down the Davidians...what no broadcast had shown was the three ponds in front of the big home [compound, if one prefers]. I have read that the fire trucks were actually stopped by the Fibbies/ATF, and prevented from attempting to fight the fire. We sat wondering at the carnage smouldering out in front of us, with ponds full to the brim surrounding the front of the former buildings. We felt like the news media had been managed, and so had we, through the edited reporting.

None of us liked what we saw at Waco, nor suspected that the raw, blunt edge of police powers were to be used so brutally. My bride and I considered that the folks burned up in those ashes were killed on purpose, with help being prevented by the authorities. We find it difficult to trust a government that won't let the fire department put out the fire burning our children, alive.

We are not bitter...we do not hate the Prez...we pray for an enlightened America, that will not relax its vigilence and will hold on to ALL its rights, including the First and Second Amendments, foremost.

Thanks for the blog. Taking on the New York Times was no easy call for you. Thank you for the guts.

Blue

Shane, why are the comparisons ridiculous?
What is fundamentally different between why the BD's were raided and slaughtered versus why Hitler killed Jews?
It was mistrust, suspicion, fear, prejudice- not facts and evidence, and certainly no due process. Any time an individual or organization in a high position of power stops placing the value of human lives at the top of the priority list, they are a threat to the multitudes, and a threat to Democracy, as outlined in our Constitution.

What was different behind the PROCESS by which the killing of he BD's and Hitler's genocide were carried out? Not a whole lot, really.

Obviously we are talking about different scales here, but the principles remain- the integrity behind the people who would do these types of things is not far behind a Hitler or Stalin.
Even if there were only a few dozen American Citizens killed, versus millions, what is the difference behind how it was done?
Nazi Anti-Semitism did not happen overnight either- a little here and a little there. If we stick our heads in the sand and let it happen on large or small scale, it is still just as wrong. There is no conceivable value to be placed on life- not one life, not 86, not millions. I am not paranoid either, just aware. IF it happened once, unanswered, it could happen again. And that, I believe, IS the big picture.

Concerned_Soldier-"I can do without the messianic cults." Your a soldier, soldiers don't make political decisions. You have sworn to defend our CONSTITUTION from all enemies foreign and domestic. Our constitution grants us freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. Many of our ancestors came here for just that reason. It seems our government has come full circle. Our government is supposed to serve and protect it's people and uphold our constitution. I am afraid our government has grow too large and too unstopable.

And for those of you who think this is supposed to be a blog dedicated strictly to guns and shooting you're wrong. This blog is entitled "The Gun Nut". Everybody knows that gun nuts love talking guns, shooting, politics, outdoor gear and just the random things that grind our gears. We can be a pissed off bunch, but hey, I guess you could say we like it that way. Am I right folks???

Crm3006 and Ralph, you both nailed the comment on Bella. GWB had some faults and did some things I did not agree with, but Hussein O. is the worst thing to happen to America since 9-11. Bowing down to kings, sucking up to socialists and mortgaging America's economy would be impeachable offenses to our founding fathers. And just wait till H. O. sends in the troops for our guns. He will be wanting Janet (burn and kill them all) Reno back.

And I mean they were wacko on both sides at Waco, I don't discriminate. Plus I thought we were working on "pagination" a few months back.

The concern here is that the government seems to have a bit of a penchant for shooting people that they disagree with. In the case of the Mormons in Texas a year or two ago, they didn't shoot anyone (that I can remember) but in essence kidnapped all the children from their legal parents.

Kind or reminds me of so not so dissimilar events a couple hundred years ago....

and the anti's wonder why we DO NOT trust our government! personally, i think that the feds wanted to show how powerful they were, so they used this as an excuse to "flex their muscles". they wanted to show the american people to not mess with uncle sam. but it went horribly wrong. so they retreated back into obscurity with their tails between their legs. yes, we know they are powerful, but to use force of that kind is political suicide. they did not get reprimanded in this realm, but what about the next? should some of them lost their jobs, certainly. jail time? that is a tough call, since no one (except the one who did it) really knows who fired the first shot. if it was a fed, then yes, certainly there should be a trial. but it is one of the many truths the american public will never know.

from focusfront,

"I am a little uncomfortable with the continued references here to not being too crazy about heavily armed religious cults. In the minds of many liberals, if you own guns, legal or not (as were the guns the Branch Davidians owned) and take a literal view of Scripture, then you are a heavily armed religious cultist."

Well said.

Vernon Howell was by all accounts two blades short of a pocketknife. No ATF or FBI warrant served peaceably or otherwise was going to be received with anything other than gunfire. When it became clear that he wasn't going to be allowed to just walk away from it, he and his chief exec killed all of his followers and set fire to the building.

I have alot of sympathy for the ATF and the followers. It must have been alot like being a US marine or GI on Okinawa watching Imperial Japanese army grunts herding civilians off a cliff.

Mike Diehl;

Locals were of the opinion that a single sheriff's deputy could have walked to the door, rung the bell, and handed Koresh the warrant. His people owned no illegal firearms and were not violent; they shopped in town and waved at the neighbors. The ATF went in shooting and Koresh's people shot back. If someday your home, within which you have a right to be, is surrounded and a bunch of ninja dressed gunmen break down your door slinging lead as they come, you may find yourself doing the same.

Concerned Soldier:

God help us all when someone thinking you are off your rocker equals a legal license to kill. Has not our elected President, Barak Obama, attributed 'clinging to guns and religion' to psychological factors unrelated to liking guns and having faith? Tolerance used to mean getting along with people you DON'T agree with. Those were the days.

Bella:

Equating a few arrests at the RNC with shooting and burning 83 people to death (none of whom had been charged with anything, many of whom were innocent women and children) is a bit of a stretch, isn't it? How many charred bodies were lying there when the RNC ended? Comparison by degree can be useful, but you must be joking to think that missing a meal equals being burned to death.

RC Dunn;

Nobody here wants his kid to grow up to be David Koresh or join a cult. Nobody here is trashing law enforcement in general. The point is that what was done at Waco was unnecessary in every way. Nobody had to die, not ATF agents, not innocent children. The actions of the ATF virtually assured that people would die, and the responsible parties walked without so much as having their hair mussed; the media almost made Janet Reno a hero for forthrightly admitting her mistakes. After which she spent the next seven years in office seeing no reason to charge Bill Clinton with any crimes or misdemeanors. Disagreement is one thing, but at least let's all try to see straight so we know what the issue is.

NOS but it's fireworks season so check out this carbomb explosion.http://shock.military.com/Shock/videos.do?displayContent=191740&ESRC=dod.nl

Wow Dave, what a hornet's nest you stirred up! I think the media's coverage of Waco was horrendous. LOVE how far off subject it's gotten. I honestly think you could post a blog about picking daisys and Obama would get bashed in the comments.
I too think the FBI/ATF did a dispicable job of handling the Branch Dividians, and the total lack of repercussions was rediculous as well. I do not think of David Koresh as an innocent victim, I think he was a sick bast**d, but it was a shame to our country how the 'raid' was handled.
Now what this has to do w/Ruby Ridge, George W., Obama, or one's service to their country is beyond me, but the passion this blog's spurred his quite entertaining. Hope all had a great 4th, I sure did!

I was a state law enforcement officer/trainer at the time. My first thought was that this was a bid for more money and power for a Fed. agency. It was also meant to be a message to those others of us potential domestic terrorists. Details of the great Waco crime should be reprinted and repeated yearly, like mention of the Houlacost to remind us of what HAS happened.

After reading all this, I think I'll go back to the reloading bench, I still don't have enough ammo.

We are missing a very important item here. The ATF plan included a small army of ATF agents in a horse trailer towed by a pickup truck storming in with Warrants and Glocks in hand. All dressed in black with ski mask on and ready for a fight. How would you react watching this barn storming group heading your way. Remember the ATF arrival was leaked to the BD members. Would I shoot on sight? Only a Monk would offer a cup of tea to settle things down with this show of force. Blood was in the ATF's eye, everyone was hyped up and ready for a fight and they got it. You know the feeling, the air is full of electricity and excitement. The Feds and Texas law enforcement giving pep talks and good luck pats to the "Lucky" guys going in to serve the warrants. The result was the most horrific scene I have ever witnessed. All those people killed by flame or gun fire based on rumor and innuendo. Nothing is justifiable that allowed our own Texas National Guard to take up arms against citizens of the united states and storm in with tanks along with a battery of Federal troupes. Am I afraid of big bubba? You better believe I am. I find myself watching what I say on the phone or how I word emails, you never know who is listening or watching. I never thought I would say that because I always believed honorable men followed the Constitution of our great nation.

Both Waco and Ruby Ridge were ginormus screw ups. However what ever the labels attached to the fools who gave the orders Sikking Jack booted thugs on people is not a liberal act. Dubya's administration did it's own share of repressive behaviors. The problem isn't the flavor of the guys in charge, it is the fact that if you have a really neat hammer you are going to look for nails to pound. The growing paramilitarization of the police is the problem as well as the practices in place from the so called "war on Drugs". Both repression of groups like the Branch Davidians and others (like those arrested and held without charges or access to food and water during the RNC protests) are two sides of the same coin whether the administration is Dem or Repug. The notion that you control people with a closed fist is the problem, not the ideology. The concept of rule by fear and stomp dissidents is what is alien to the American way.
Still the Branch Davidians were a cult. What makes a cult? The Advanced Bonewits Cult Danger Evaluation Frame (or ABCDEF) poses variables that help determine the dangerousness of a cult. Some factors that make a cult include the amount of control imposed by the group, the degree of infallability ascribed to the leader, the rigidity of the dogma, the emphasis on recruiting and prosletization, whether front groups are used, how much wealth is sought by the group, sexual favoritism or exploitation by the group, censorship, isolation and dropout control by the group, as well as violence, paranoia and grimness acted out by the group. Finally two Big factors are whether surrender of will is required and how hypocritical the difference between what is preached and what is actually carried out. The Branch Davidians scored real high on the ABCDEF (as do the hari krisnas and the mormons). I feel Dave Koresh should have been brought down long before he started collecting AR conversion kits just for being a manipulative power hungry lying SOB. I felt the same way about Prabupada at New Vrindaban and the Bagwan at Rashnishpuram. L. Ron Hubbard is dead, but the moster he created still spreads it's tentacles today with bozos like Tom Cruise shilling for the Org. None of 'em come close to the great grandaddy of cults, the Mormons (the only church with Senators to represent it, on both sides of course , so they can get their way no matter who is in power) The Mormons have a lot of things in common with the Branch Davidians, Both founded by manipulative sexual preditors claiming exclusive pipelines to god and demanding total obedience fom devotees. Both had their organizations outlive their personal apocalypses, except that the Mormons took on the US Cavalry and kicked them out of Utah in Johnson's War. A hundred and fifty years make a lot of difference sometimes...

Shane,

You're absolutely right. We should let "terrorism suspects" purchase firearms. If things keep going the way they are, we'll all soon been terrorism suspects by virtue of the fact that we own guns.

Happy 4th!

Which reminds me: Do you know what the 4th of July is all about? Are you still connected with the spirit of freedom and liberty that our founding fathers embodied? Something important to ask everyone on this day to remind them that it's not all about "patriotism", flag-waving, picnics/cook-outs, and fireworks.

Common sense has long been gone when it comes to the Gov. Look at the mess we now in in the far east and going to get worse.

Wow, this is a HOT topic. Lot of enthusiasm in it.

Shane said:

"No one knows who shot first, so I don't know if I have a problem with them burning or not."

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. All comments are not created equal and I have never read a comment more devoid of thought or reasoning.

First, what does shooting first have to do with the ATF burning people alive? If someone shoots at the cops first, then the cops can burn the shooters house with the shooter (and whoever else) in it; but if the cops shoot first, then they can't set fire to a home?

Second, Ranger2, Shane didn't "win" anything so don't concede. His inability to understand reason and logic speaks to the lack of such behind his own comments. Res Ipsa Loquitor.

I suspect Shane is a troll.

It's important to call these weenies out when they throw misinformation around. Nice call.

Shane, your "reason and logic" is flawed. ALL the BATF is not as you accuse them. Yep, there are some. Just don't paint them all with your "logic".

First off look at "source". A liberal writter, a liberal newpaper.
You can't "blame" Bubba Clinton, cause everbody knows Dem's and their buddy's NEVER do ANYTHING wrong, or is that right? I get confused some times.
Must be the medication from the new "National Health Care" program.

Wow guys, sorry for the long posts.

OK now everyone is on everyone's side.

It is as I said, If you have a really expensive hammer, every chore requires a nail.
I am actually wondering if anyone actually reads what I write here, as I hadn't thought my opinion on the Waco thing was that extreme. Vernon Howell was a manipulative con man using a religious version of a Ponzi scheme. He wanted a flame out and got it with the full cooperation of the Feds he played like a violin. Macho feds with misguided tactical doctrines and insufficient intelligence gathering doomed the whole operation to expensive embarrassing failure. Brainiacs all.

What you bet this post gets pulled before Monday?

We know what the "F" in BATFE stands for. Don't get on their short list.....

GWB was pro 2nd amendment. Aside from that one positive, he has the mental capacity of a “Shrub” and after 8 years of his administration the country is certainly paying for it. His father, GHWB, on the other hand was a fine President.

WA MtnHunter, Yea, I'm still glad he is gone.

Both situations would make me feel like cooking up some fish and chips.

And nope. Skipped high school.

Okay,
Now I feel like the short guy at the bar, So I went for a run today to try and clear my head and during my run, all I could think about was everything that was said, and I agree it is important to have fruitful patriotic discussion, escpecially on the eve of this great holiday, it is also quite comforting to know there are still great Armchair Quarterbacks and Generals out there keeping America safe or at least badmouthing it and never really doing anything for it.

Let'em fly men, I look forward to hearing your discussion.

What have you done for your country today???

v/R

C_S

No one knows who shot first, so I don't know if I have a problem with them burning or not.

WMTHunter, despite the things the Obama has done that I do not like, Even if the Election were to come tomorrow I would still vote for Obama. The crimes and misdemeanors of the Bush II administration were sooo bad and occurred in such mean spirited variety, that I would have voted Democrat anyway, just to Get those F---ers outa there. Obama may have signed the Philip Morris Welfare Tobacco Control bill, but he ain't renditioned anybody, he hasn't shown any egregious conflicts of interest (eg, Cheney + Halliburton = no bid contracts) and he hasn't outed any of his own intelligence officers to make political points. Most of all, Obama has yet to start a war so his corporate sponsors can make boodles of cash off taxpayers over4 the bodies of dead GIs. Along with all this, the economy sucks, but we know on whose watch the train wrecked. At least we have somebody who believes that diplomacy comes before war and professes respect for other religions rather than dragging the rest of us on some crackpot effort to eminentize the eschaton and suck the world into apocalyptic crusaderism. Koresh wanted Apocalypse and got it in spades. I am so glad that political incompetants scuppered Dubya's dream of Armegeddon, we are likely to have trouble enough with the global changes that are barreling down on us, completely unrelated to religion or politics.
Anyway Koresh is dead, and I don't miss him, except to say that I do not doubt he is finding the afterlife quite a bit different than he expected.
The one beautiful thing about our modern paramilitarized police state is that should a body desire a personal apocalypse all one has to do is pick up something that might be considered a weapon (anything will do really, garden rakes, pointy sticks, your wallet) go to a public space then scream about something nonsensical and Voila' the blue people are there with guns drawn to give you your wish. Suicide by Cop is on the rise (and on this I really truely do feel compassion for LEO's forced into such situations) largely because disturbed individuals wanting to end it all but lacking the sand to do themselves inevitably go througfh the same dammned script and out comes the whole circus parade till the "threat" is contained or quelled. When are the powers that be going to realize not everything can be legislated, not everything needs to be regulated and repression is not an American value.

Com'on Dave,
Did we really have to discuss this? I love guns, you love guns, we all love guns, so can we keep it to that?

I agree with Shane, "Sure it was handled badly, but on the other hand, I could do without heavily armed messianic cults.

I don't find the comparison between this and the Iran situation to be fair at all."

Now before all of you go and vote this down as a bad comment, let me tell you that there are two sides to every story.

I'm not a big fan of former President Clinton either, and if we are going to make comparisons in the US favor, then we should compare what is going on in Iran with our 2000 and 2004 elections, we had no blood shed and the process went about as smooth as can be expected.

Remember,
"Democracy is the best form of the worst type of government"
- Winston Churchill

And as Forest Gump like to say,
"That's all I have to say about that!"

V/R

C_S