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Petzal: Stabbed in the Back By Your Gun?

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August 17, 2009

Petzal: Stabbed in the Back By Your Gun?

By David E. Petzal

Yesterday, the club that tolerates my presence held its annual African Shoot which is limited to rifles of .375 H&H and bigger. The shoot stresses rapid fire and rapid reloading with a reasonable degree of accuracy. Most of the rifles there were bolt-actions, with one Ruger Number One and half a dozen doubles including a black-powder 8-bore. The most popular caliber was .375 H&H, and there were some .416s and .470s.

What interested me was that, of the 16 or so bolt rifles present, probably 6 or 7 did not cycle. They jammed, or cartridges flew out, or their owners could not feed them correctly. Under the circumstances it cost the shooters points. In real life it could have gotten them killed.

I may have told this story before, but it bears repeating. In 1992 I hunted in Zimbabwe with a very capable young PH named Doug Reynolds. After I had shot everything I was supposed to, we visited some of his colleagues in their camps, and I noticed that just about every one used a particular American make of .458 as a backup gun. I asked Douglas how come, and he said:

“The Americans buy these guns, single-load them off a bench rest to sight them in, and bring them over here without having cycled a single magazine through them. Then, when it’s for real the guns jam and the PH has to save their lives. When they leave, they tell the PH, ‘Here, you keep this g**damn thing; it nearly got me killed.’ The PH takes it to the gunsmith in Bulawayo who fixes it, and he’s got a free rifle.”

One final note. The guy who owns the 8-bore, whose name is Peter, had his rifle double on him. I figure he caught 532 foot-pounds of recoil, which is 9 times what you get from a .458. But then, Peter picked up his beast again and put five shots right about where they should be, in a group you could cover with both hands. Now that is guts.

Comments (87)

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from TJ wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Any thoughts on the 450 Dakota

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from Douglas wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Peter certainly does have guts. I had a 12 ga O/U fire both barrels with turkey loads. I wince every time I fire it now.
Good point on cycling full magazines. I am guilty of following the same single shot routine.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Dave,
What were you shooting? I hope you did not wimp out and use a 375.
Buck Buckner chairman of the records committee of North American Big Game for Boone and Crockett used to host such a shoot in Oregon. Separates the men from the intelligent ones.

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from Harold wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Since my most powerful rifle is a 30/06, and I think that's a powerful rifle, I don't shoot the big-bores too much. I have, from time to time, fired other's and I think I'll stick to my main rifle, a 7X57. However, checking to see if a rifle feeds and functions before a hunt is a good idea no matter what rifle or what's hunted.--Harold

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

It is only fair to add that early on, the 458 Win Mag was the only reasonably priced stopping rifle some PH's could afford. Now that better ammo is available this much maligned rifle is doing just fine.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

DEP-
Is there a reliable test to determine the rifle's function, other than cycling live rounds through the action? I was working with my .375 H&H last week, everything seemed fine on slow fire, but you got me thinking.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Besides cycling rounds through the magazine you need to fire several full magazines through the rifle. Recoil may drop the floor plate down which at best is embarrassing at worst dangerous. Additionally, recoil can move the rounds around which may cause problems with cycling.

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from davidpetzal wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

To TJ: The .450 Dakota is almost a duplicate of the .458 Lott--500 grains at 2,400 fps. It can be loaded hotter, but the nice thing about lower pressures is they don't screw you up in hot weather. It is a very effective cartridge.

To all: I shot a .416 Remington with a muzzle brake. I won one event, disgraced myself in a second, and did OK in a third. That's the way it goes these days.

To CRM .30/06: If you can cycle 60 rounds through a rifle, slow fire and rapid-fire, with no problems, it's probably OK. For a dangerous-game rifle, make it 100rounds. If the dangerous game rifle has a wood stock, take the barreled action out after 100 shots and look for cracks.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Anyone who goes on a dangerous game hunt withouth firing atleast 2 boxes of ammo as fast as possible on short range on a target so big and close as to only require pointing not aiming deserves whats comming.. i wouldnt go on one withouth smooting my action to the point where i could breathe on it to make it move, tripplechecking extractor and ejector function and maybe even smooth out loading ramp and then checking that my trigger/safety works even if the gun gets bumped pretty hard.. actually broke a bauxelite recoil pad that way, installed pacmair and never looked back.. Your gun if u buy a working model not the fineshots exclusive ones worth the price of a mansion, is the smallest investment in a dangerous game hunt. Do it right.. and learn to use it.. gonna save your life..

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Good post , David.

While I don't hunt Africa or Alaska, there are some critters in every state in the West that can, and occasionally will, eat your lunch. Not having learned it the hard way, I cycle every round I take on a hunt through each rifle from the magazine rapidly. I also do it in the living room where the carpet catches the rounds without damaging them. Of course I don't do this when the wife is present and I don't point the rifle at one of the dogs. After the exercise, I inspect each round and put them back into their box and into the ammo can that will be taken on the hunt.

For those naysayers who deem that unsafe, I say that if I can't safely carry out that exercise, I have no business possessing a fiream in the first place. There are no bullet holes in my walls either.

I have never been mauled by a grizzly or lion becase my rifle failed to feed nor missed a trophy bull because a round failed to chamber. I have only read about the former and witnessed the latter.

Bot Scout Motto: Be prepared

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Thanks, DEP-
100 rounds of .375 is no small amount of change these days, but is does beat relying on hope when you consider the possibilities.
Murphy's Law, etc....

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Happy-
I had a .30-'06 dump a magazine of shells due to a defective catch one day while shooting a turkey. Ever since, I have had the latches inspected and even sealed one. Thanks for the tip.

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from ishawooa wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Sounds like fun. We do a mini-version among some local friends mostly using boulders and prairie dogs for targets. By the way as you might expect its much easier to hit a p-dawg at 300 yards with a big scoped .22-.250 than at 100 yards with a .470 double and open sights. It would be interesting to determine the cause of each failure that DEP witnessed. As Happy pointed out much of the disenchantment with early .458 Win. turned out to be related to the ammunition manufacturing process although many of the rifles were blamed for failures (I think Carmichael wrote a piece on this once). I believe that situation has long been solved. Insofar as shooting big guns the same principle applies that makes for accurate shooting with the usual prairie dog and big game rifles...practice, practice, practice before the hunt.

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from randwarner wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Was it Win M70s that failed?

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from SL wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Yeah, why don't you tell us the name of this "particular American make"? That's why those product test articles that magazines love to do are really a joke. The American gun writer gets to shoot and test everything that is out there, yet they never tell us the WHOLE story on the stuff that doesn't measure up. If we actually read about products that stunk once in a while, I would be more inclined to believe that the writers aren't being paid off to write good reports only. I won't hold my breath, though!

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from focusfront wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Dave Petzal;

It is highly significant (to me as a Remington shooter) that you were shooting a .416 Remington. For years we've been listening to "the controlled feed Mauser is superior to the push feed Remington type action" when it comes to dangerous game rifles. Well, this was a chance for that to be tested. I realize that 16 bolt rifles is not a scientific random sampling (although you have been doing this for a while, and with your 144 IQ can no doubt remember what happened in past shoots), but it may show something. Just answer this; is there any particular type action that is better than the other? Or are all rifles individuals, good when properly set up and bad otherwise?

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I've been hunting for 30+ years. I've never had a bolt or lever action rifle fail to chamber a round. Not once. Not on the range and not in the field. They've all been American guns and they've all worked every time.

I wonder in re those abandoned American rifles in Africa, if operator error was the determining factor?

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from davidpetzal wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

TO SL: I agree with you in principle, but this happened 17 years ago, and who knows but that this manufacturer is now making flawless reliable rifles, and does not deserve to be beaten up for what they put out in the early 90s.

To Focus Front: The rifle I was shooting was a .416 Remington built on a McMillan action, which is push-feed, and about as reliable as they come. Neither type is more reliable; I've seen pre-64 Winchesters that could not get a cartridge out of the magazine, and the centerfire that I have shot the most, of anything, that has never failed, is a Remington 700.

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from Bernie wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

The only bolt-action centerfire I've ever owned that would not feed properly from the magazine was a Model 700 Classic in .222 Rem. I bought the rifle new in the mid-90s. When I noticed the problem I took it to a gunshop in Helena, MT that is an authorized Remington dealer. They ground an illicit piece of metal off part of the magazine box (at least that's what they told me), and I haven't had a problem since. With only a 6X Leupold for magnification I have shot .5 and .6" groups with this rifle.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I would be more suspect of "custom" guns from some obscure 'smith than a Remington or Weatherby production rifle. I have never had either fail and both are push-feeds. I have had a Rem 722 fail to extract due to a worn extractor, but it was a 50 year old rifle at the time!

I'd take a side bet that the rifles abandoned were Winchesters or Mauser actioned customs.

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from MaxPower wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Dave, I'm probably not alone in wishing I could've been a fly on the wall at your big-bore shoot. If ever F+S will spring for a toady to follow you with a video camera to add authenticity or a touch of reality, I call dibs on the job...or if you just need a volunteer, I'm game.

So what events were they where you won, did OK and were disgraced in??

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I've provided much comic relief and been the butt of many jokes for shooting my 338 Winchester at everything that moves, and at almost every range session for the past few years. I have endured endless pounding from factory and handloads alike. I've shot over 400 rounds of factory ammo.
I always tell the jesters the same thing: "When I get back to Alaska this rifle is going to be an extension of my anatomy". The last thing I want is a big bear chewing on me, or someone else, because of my poor shooting or lousy gun-handling.
For my standing drills, (DEP's pie-plate at 100yds) I always put three down in the magazine and start from a closed bolt, with the rifle down. I shoot the magazine empty, and then I fire three more single-loading from my belt.
I've spent a bit of money buying parts and taking it to gunsmiths so that it will feed like butter. Always handing it over to shaking heads, (who still take my money) because it's "just a Savage". I'll keep my push-feed, Thank-You!
As long as the pointy-end is pointing forward, and the cartridge is within specs, the bolt closes and the rifle goes boom, no drama.
When I do move back to Alaska I won't have to worry about my rifle or my skills with it. I could care less what the small-bore guys think about it.
AKX

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I have a Remington 700 classic in 350 rem mag. and it will not eject the empty if you work the bolt fast.The gun extracts the case and leaves it on top of the next round in the magazine. It wasn't a problem in Ak because since I was aware I just tipped the rifle as the bolt came back and the empty fell out. Haven't hunted with that gun in years. One of these days need to get it fixed.

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I have a Ruger 375 Alaskan, that I need to shoot a lot more, but I only own 18 rounds of brass, (one is in my brother's cartridge board the other lost in the weeds at the range) and can't find any more. I have just enough cartridges to go hunting this fall if I don't find some more.
I'll have to put some brass on backorder with Cabela's and maybe someday (I've had primers on backorder since April) those will come in too.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

AlaskanExile-
Try Midway USA. Don't know what bullet wt. your gun likes, but they had a fairly decent selection last Friday. Hope this helps.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Dave,

Does the fellow who owns the 8 bore now go by the name of Saint Peter?

I'd love to try it out, but not in that dosage.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

That's the first time I have heard PH's get Free rifles;that's one hellava tip!
That's an interesting shooting drill you boys play Dave, and I'm with Mike D. I have never experienced a jam with my bolt(savage) or lever(marlin) with factory or handload rounds....not to say it couldn't happen!

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Ralph the Rifleman-
It does make one tend to wonder, doesn't it.
I would like to know if the malfunctions were mechanical, or operator error? Maybe that old boogeyman the "short stroke"? Whatever the cause, I intend to thoroughly check out my Winchesters before going into bear country, even though I have never had this problem with Remingtons, Winchesters, Mauser, Ruger, or Savage. BUT very few whitetail deer turn around and start hunting the hunter.

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from dickgun wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I wonder if that 8 bore might be the one that Lew Drake had for sale in his booth at SCI a couple years back. I remember a shopper asking Lew, "now what would you shoot with an 8 bore," to which Lew replied, "anything you want to!!"

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Good topic Dave! If you are hunting anything that can trample, maul, claw, stomp, or gore you, you had better KNOW the thing will go bang every time. I have met two gentlemen who both took the big five and they both used guns that were as far from custom as they could be. One of these fellows has gone to the Happy Hunting Ground now and I think about what he told me:
1)Never drink before the hunt -always after
2)only hunt with people you like a lot; yet would trust your life with and vice versa
3)never take a gun you can't readily find ammo for
4)be a good shot and damn sure of it before you go
5)always have a backup plan(in his mind this meant a pistol if the place he was at would allow it)

A 1911 saved his life when a Brown bear came in his camp one night.....

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Del

I had a 722 that did the same thing with nickel plated cases (mostly). Worn or undersized extractor fails to properly grip the rim. Change it and I bet it will stop that.

WMH

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from Carney wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Cycle everything.

I got a new 300 WinMag and began handloading for it 2 months ago. I had 10 rounds that weren't lubed enough inside the case mouth / neck. They were so tight coming out of the sizing die that the rims bent ever so slightly and I couldn't lever the bolt closed on them. It took a lot of thinking, looking and checking before the rim problem finally evidenced. What a drag it would be to get out in the field with bum cartridges -- to say nothing of an actual rifle, magazine, feed ramp, etc., problem.

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from freeparking wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

An account of a dangerous game hunt where things didn't go so well: http://www.fmft.net/archives/004076.html#more

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from sarg wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

While at the range one day my friend while shooting a weatherby bolt gun in .300Win Mag was shooting to the left on every shot. asked me to shoot it and I did hitting the target 's exact center. He was flinching so bad that he would pull to the left fearing the recoil. Something he and only he can overcome. . By the way , I wouldn't carry a .300 WM here in E. Ky. if it was given me. It's silly to have so much rifle for deer here in the hills. maybe out West or some where else, but not here. I'll stick with .308 size cartridges and enjoy shooting instead of fearing the next shot....

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from sarg wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

DAVE, sometimes we stab ourselves in the back, Know what I mean...

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from PbHead wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I can't believe this post went this long and nobody mentioned shooting a Marlin Guide Gun. Dave, would I be laughed off the line if I showed up with a true big bore lever gun in say 45-70?

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Sarg,
The gentleman who gave me the sage advice (and is now sadly departed) did more with his .308 on six continents
than any other I know of. I remind myself of that regularly when I punish myself with some of the stuff I've lustfully purchased.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Carney

It is always a wise thing to check the first few resized cases for chambering in the rifle. I loaded a bunch of .257 Roberts last year that would not chamber without excessive bolt pressure and most would not chamber at all. I'm glad I only spoiled a trip to the range, not a hunt. Had my dies set up incorrectly. Lesson learned by me - always check for chambering before loading and then chamber/cycle every round before the hunt!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Sarge & sgaredneck

Big magnums are only "required" by the hunter, not the game. I took my first mule deer and elk with a .308 Winchester many moons ago. They were just as dead as the ones taken with bigger rifles.

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from Carney wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

WA Mnt Hunter: You and I are on the same page. When I bought the BLR, I made up 3 dummy rounds just to see how the action handled. The mag was defective and wouldn't feed round 2 or 3 without a few good raps on the bottom. Browning sent a new mag and paid to have the feed ramp polished!

PBHead: You are a man after my own heart! While I just bought this BLR in 300 WinMag -- my all time favorite is my Marlin 1895 in 45-70! My 15 year old son will carry it in this Fall's hunting season. We have loaded up some cartridges with Hornady Leverevolution bullets and I expect it will make my favorite gun a 200 yarder!

Also, I'm surprised that so many find the 300winmag to have excessive recoil. It just seems normal to me, but that's probably due to shooting really hot loads with 300 - 405 grain bullets out of my Marlin...

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from Mark-1 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I’ve have two dangerous game rifles that have actually had/seen action. One is a custom Mauser in 35 Whelen. The other is post 64 Winchester Model 70 in 458. I’ve never had problems with feeding, extraction and ejection with either rifle, but I prefer Mauser action in a dangerous game rifle. Neither rifle is a “stock” rifle after I finished tinkering. I wonder how many hunters have been thoughtful and reflective enough to do what I will describe.

I’m anal on ejection and extraction so both rifles have lots of attention in these areas. The actions have been honed and trued to eliminate drag. Feed ramps polished.

The 458 has those marvelous Winchester express sights, and a 1x5 variable Tasco World Class scope. This scope isn’t top end, but it’s proven very reliable and stable for 16-years on this rifle. I have likely shot 1700 rounds through this rifle. I dare say I have shot 200 practice rounds for every shot fired in action.

I spent considerable time and effort adjusting the scope relief to fit me with alignment as I mount this rifle from low gun. I don’t want to fuss adjusting to my scope under dramatic situation….and 458’s are for dramatic situations.

The Mauser in 35 Whelen lacked iron sights having an old Redfield 2x7 variable I bought 30-years ago. Again, lots of attention paid how this scope is mounted to have proper eye relief and alignment. This rifle I recently passed on to my son. He’ll be hunting the western mountains and Alaska as I did.

Previous posts describe my drills in prep for the field.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Mark-1

The .35 Whelen is not by most folk's definition a dangerous game rifle, but it fits the bill as a close-in "dangerous bear" rifle for N. America. I take mine when hunting anything when in big bear country. That's why I bought it 20 years ago!

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter,
I wholeheartedly agree with you on the capability of the .308 cartridge. There are some places that do not allow military rounds for hunting (i.e. no .308/7.62, no 30/06 etc.) as capable as they may be. There are also places that do have a minimum caliber size requirement for dangerous game. Then there are PH's and guides who have their minimum preferences too.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

sgareneck, A .308 win. is not a military round, It is the commercial equiv. of the 7.62 NATO.IT is not a military round as all military rounds are Full metal jacketed which is illigal even here at home to hunt with.

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from davidpetzal wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

To PB Head. In fact, a member showed up a few years ago with a Guide Gun, but was beaten unmercifully and not allowed to compete. If you want to use a .45 rifle, it's got to be at least a .458 Winchester Magnum.

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from davidpetzal wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

To PB Head. In fact, a member showed up a few years ago with a Guide Gun, but was beaten unmercifully and not allowed to compete. If you want to use a .45 rifle, it's got to be at least a .458 Winchester Magnum.

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from Mark-1 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter,

IMHO anything below .33 Calibers is a "deer" rifle. When you hunt with a .33 or .35 caliber or larger you're after the BIG STUFF...and don't want any arguments. That’s the nice thing about medium bores and heavy rifles. No arguments in your face.

A 338 or 35 Whelen/Norma Mag will waste a lion, Grizzly…even will nail a Cape buffalo….convincingly however, I prefer a 458..; or bigger if I could handle it.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Mark-1

You are correct. Nothing I ever shot with the .35 Whelen uttered even a peep in argument. I like to shoot a lot, so anything bigger than the .35 Whelen or 7mm Weatherby is more recoil than I want to deal with. I would reconsider that if I were going to Africa.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I figure a .45-120 would be an interesting rifle for that sort of thing.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I've listened over sundowners around the campfire to misadventures regarding recycling heavy rifles. I suspect sometimes pilot error is involved. There is something about pulling down on a cape buffalo for the first time that brings out the jitters in almost anyone.

This has been fun post. Dave, come up with some more.

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from Zermoid wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I wonder too how many of those failure to cycle problems are operator problems. My only centerfire bolt rifle is a old Swede Mauser which has been sporterized, I do occasionally have a problem with short stroking it, usually when slowly cycling it on the bench, go figure!
Never failed to cycle while hunting. Lever action Marlin 30-30 is the same story, occasional short stroking shooting targets, works fine for hunting. Got to be an adrenaline thing and trying to be gentle on it at the range I guess, gotta break that habit!

Personally prefer a lever or pump to a bolt myself, grew up shooting lever guns and pump shotguns, they just feel more natural to operate, only bolt rifles I shot growing up were 22's, guess I just have a mental block against a bolt being a real rifle!

And ALWAYS cycle every handloaded round thru the gun from the magazine before the hunt, just to be sure it is going to feed smoothly. Factory ammo too, altho you got better odds with factory rounds.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Both my brother and uncle got sporterised swede mausers.. its the angle of the arm combined with the adjusted bolthandle that gives the problem.. i say slam it.. u wont break it in any way unless your gunsmith did shoddy work in the first place.. even on the bench, develop a very positive cycling.. chack-chack!!! did it with my german m98 mauser and didnt break a thing.. shot like a mf and never miscycled:P

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

LOL! I think you would need to cycle the bolt with a sledgehammer to break a German K98 Mauser ....

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

well yeah originally, but the sporterized versions u sometimes get bad welds on the bolt handle and if your gunsmith sporterising it didnt do good work the handle actually can break.. seen it happen twice.. should have seen the look in the eyes of those guys:P even worse one had a loaded chamber and the bolt had not closed enough for him to fire the round.. took a leatherman and alot of swearing to free it so he could transport it home and send it to a gunsmith safely:P

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I just think it sad that most american weapons are only half finished and that most american citizens think its supposed to be that way.. some european manufacturers ran out of buisness by the majors from usa got a helluva better action than the big american ones.. my rifle`s action is as old as i am and have never ever misfired with ammo that was less than 30 years old and have never had any feeding etc. problems ever.. can slam it to my hears desire and it still shoots 20mm at 200 yards with anything but barnes-x factory bullets.. havent even gotten into reloading because it shoots better with factory ammo than i can ever use in the field.. and i dont use more bullets in the field than i can afford any year..
peace out yall!:P

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from Gunslinger wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I use a 700 CDL Classic when hunting with a 30-06. For the reson stated above I never load but 4 rounds in the chamber. I want the first round to feed from the box and not have one in the chamber.If you misplace the shells in the magazine, it will show up then, not when you need the 2nd shot.That may be teh oly shot you have a option to take on any hunt and I want things working proper and no guess wrk. I read some gun is now using a coil spring in the magazine rather than the z type spring? should be better, as the z typecan catch over the sides of you magazine or Box. If i cannot gt my Animal down with 4 shoots,I need to pratice more or buy a different type firesrm. Recoil on high power firearms is 99 % the cause of both bbls going off,or ether your finger is sticking out to catch the 2nd trigger. Never buy a single trigger big caliber gun or one that goes to Auto safety after the first shot.Shoot-um-straight and often,especially the day befoe depature.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Well i feel u on yer gunchoice bro, but still whats the investment on a better spring for yer gun compared to the value of yer life in a situation where something that will seriously fugh u up if it gets to ya?? I know the old saying that states spend more money on yer scope than yer gun, but recently u get more value fer money from yer scope than u did 10 years ago.. i say spend more money on yer gun than u can afford.. its the last line of defence in hunting anything dangerous.. whats yer life worth?????? besides... getting familiar with yer rifle is gonna save yer life if u really need it.. and even a Z spring can be bent into service if u know what yer doing.. just ask bob dunlap:D

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Buy a Weatherby Mark V. The bolt and handle are from one forging.

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Sarg,
Thank you for correcting me on the .308 cartridge. I did some background and I will attempt to correct and clarify my statement(s).
1).308 is indeed the civilian version of 7.62 NATO. I incorrectly lumped them together in my brief description. There IS a difference, especially for you and I here in the U.S. of A. However, in other parts of the world SOME organizations, airlines , and governments see no distinction. They treat ANY 7.62 ammunition or firearms as war materiel and to my understanding some do not differentiate between .308 & 7.62 NATO because of the interchangeability. I do not, nor have I ever advocated AP, FMJ or any kind of true military ammunition for use on game. I made the .308/7.62 statement in an oversimplified way for brevity's sake, because if you were to travel with it on the wrong route to the right place, or on the wrong aircarrier on your way to your destination it could ruin an expensive hunt.

I stand (mostly) corrected on 30/06 - I had read some years back that it was considered a military round first and foremost and some governments did not allow it. Some still do not (supposedly France, Italy among others) but not a lot of hunting going on there.
It has basically sunsetted as a military round and is now more largely considered a sporting round. I would still check diligently before traveling out of the USA,
as there could be unforseen regulations in dark corners of the world.

P.S. Not trying to be a smart-aleck but ALL 7.62 NATO being FMJ - that is not entirely the case. There is a tear gas variant and a Glaser safety slug variant. But 99.9999% of it IS FMJ of some sort.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

sgaredneck, good post.... I know that the .308 and 30.06 has been used in many countries as a hunting round.
I believe it was you who stated "the gentleman used his .308 on six contients.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Good post, gunslinger, be E-mailing you soon.....

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from sarg wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Gunsliger, Got a DVD of the elk here in Ky. I need get to you....

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Sarg,
The fellow who did all the hunting with the .308 probably did his last Africa hunt in the 80's. He himself told me of hassles here and there and how it would have been easier to just take a .375 H&H or a 300 Win. mag but he knew he could count on that very battered Ruger M77. I met him @ '92 or '93 when I was sent to his vacation house to do some insurance work. My boss at the time (who was and still is an avid hunter/shooter) told me to bring up hunting with him. I wasted the whole day drinking beer and listening to
the old guy tell stories and looking at his trophies. :)

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

How the heck was drinking beer, talking about hunting, and looking at trophies a wasted day? LOL

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

"I wasted the whole day drinking beer and listening to the old guy tell stories and looking at his trophies..."
Wasted day? Wasted day, indeed. Get your priorities in order, man!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

The only thing better would be to throw in a little fishing!

All Rise for the national anthem - - -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib8nH4kHjxk

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter & crm3006,
It was a wasted day in the sense that I was young and broke and was being paid to WORK. However, I will not now or ever turn down a beer that needs drinking, or fail to BS with someone about a common interest. It was a priceless experience. I wish y'all could've been there.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

sgaredneck-
I share your sentiment- ain't it awful when you are in such a fix you have to work for a living?

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from sarg wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

sgaredneck, you sound like a likeable person, where do you hail from ?

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Sarg,
I'm in South Georgia about an hour from the FL line. Thank you for the comment.
crm3006,
Work is a relative thing. Sometimes you have more than you know what to do with. Times like now for me there is zip... I told someone the other day this was gonna be the year I made up for all the Fall/Winter seasons that I was too busy to hunt. I will make the best of it.
DEP,
Sorry I helped run us off topic. I'll try to do better on the next one.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Well, don't recon you ran off topic, still talking about Shooting, hunting etc. I'm retired now so I'm going to try more shooting and hunting. I'm in E.Ky. where we have a large herd of elk , may try my luck at the draw. Saw one herd with 145-150 elk at about 100yds. shouldn't be much of a problem for the ole' Rem. in .308...

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from ggmack wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

i like my 416 rigby. I was unsure if it would be to much but, I researched the Cape Buffalo and croc I am planning to hunt, I practiced of pie plates at 100, 75, 50, 25, and 7 yards, i can handle it now.

My main gun is either a 300 Win Mag or a 12 gauge pump.

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from ggmack wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

i like my 416 rigby. I was unsure if it would be to much but, I researched the Cape Buffalo and croc I am planning to hunt, I practiced of pie plates at 100, 75, 50, 25, and 7 yards, i can handle it now.

My main gun is either a 300 Win Mag or a 12 gauge pump.

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from Gunslinger wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Life is short at best. The economy s in the pits, but how many years of hunting do we have left.Me, I;m 74 and very fe left at best. Have decided from here on out, I will buy what-ever I need, really need and try to hunt all I can wherever it may be. My healthis like the weather, good and bad days. This year not been well for 6 or so months, but now feeling somewhat better and looking forward to 2 months of w-tail hunting her at home. As for guns,can spend whatevr you have or can afford. Scopes, anothe story. The mid range scope is as good as wee need, not the Wally-world 39.95's but something like a Nikon Monarch is great. All my western guns carry Nikon. My home use guns cary the Bushnell Dusk to dawn in 3 x 10 x 40 with the handy end eye focus( as Nikon has been doing for a while. The Bushnell is a good scope late and early and with the focus eye piece ( no rings to tighten, you simply adjust as you do your Bincs. I love beautiful wood as well as the next guy and my Rocky mtn guns are all Walnut. I'm going to try a new MArlin XL7 in 270 here at home for my first ever 270/If budget is vry tight, they finance a tad longer and by the gun, scope you want. I skimed and saved for years before I really bought quality firearms, both in rigfles, shotguns and handguns. I doubt any gun I own would not dble my investment. So fro hense forth, what I want I will work a way to buy and if next season I'm living, will apply for Elk and Mulie deer and lopes in the Western states. Got enough w-tails here at home to keep me busy this fall. I own many scopes, firearms that have had since the early 50's and they good as ever.So from now till I'm unable to hunt, I plan to buy what I want. Hey, have you guys heard of a Parker 5 shot revolver shotgun? I'm reading a Western Novel and they talk of this gun a lot, I never heard of it. Fill me in if you know about it. Good luck to all you guys, Shoot-um-straight and very often. Don;t appear to brag, just stating facts of life when you my age. Time runs short.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Gunslinger, you going to put in for elk here inKY. or come up and try for a bear in dec.

Glad you are feeling better.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Gunslinger,

Hang in there my friend. Always good to see your posts.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

We hope to see you in Craig, CO next year! Keep those posts coming1

WA Mtnhunter

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from DakotaMan wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Just a thought on the differences with dangerous game... Your life may depend on one split second chance to shoot considering two big factors:
1) Adrenalin: People act and react completely different when highly stoked on adrenalin. They take the safety off (or miss it) different, hit the trigger with their finger different and reload different. For example, in frantic reloading a Mauser action, I pulled the bolt back so fast that inertia moved my bolt shroud back far enough to rotate, locking the action open... this was caused by a weak shroud keeper spring... once fixed, it was fine but had it happened on a lion charge, I would have been dead. IT was a great mauser, it just wasn't ready for adrenalin unitl repaired. Don't just run the bullets through... RUN the bullets through FAST and HARD! Pull that bolt hard enough to rip it OFF, drop it on the scope a few times in the process. If it holds together for you, you are good to go.
2) Unusual conditions: The rifle has to work in all conditions, spray it with a hose, open the action and throw in a handful of mud and lay on your back while you fire it upside down overhead. You may find that the push extractor drops the bullet on your forehead instead of putting it in the chamber or that you can't actually get the bolt shut on your high priced and pretty rifle. To survive, you must be ready for all conditions and they may not all be ideal.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

thats where a mauser action properly set up shines through like none other.. huge tolerances and controlfeed.. Not on the bench shooting tiny groups..
But i actually got a pushfeed that wont drop bullets out upside down belive it or not:P

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Gunslinger;
Well stated Sir! Way to put it in perspective! How many days does any of us really have to hunt, shoot and enjoy the outdoors (fish if you have to)?
All of our days are numbered, we have to treat them as the valuable commodity that they are.
Sometimes you can get more money, but seldom can you use that money to buy better health, and you can never use it to buy more time...

AKX

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from Gunslinger wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Thanks for the kind words guys. I hope and pray I have any hunting days left and beabe to purchae another firearm or two. Too bad we not born rich, and be abe to hunt in early life. But plan to enjoy what is left to the fullest. Tae care, thanks again. Shoot-um-straight and often.

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from O Garcia wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

I suppose if John Rigby built his first bolt action PH rifles out of Lee-Enfield actions instead of those sainted Magnum Mausers, "CRF" fans today would be singing the praises of the Lee-Enfield instead of the Mauser. I'm putting forward the idea that the Mauser (and by extension, the WinM70) got its sterling reputation partly because it looks so damn pretty when cleaned up. I'm not saying it has no merits, obviously it has, but it wasn't alone.

It's not whether it's controlled-round-feed or push-feed. It's how well it's made. You could make a totally unreliable Mauser-style rifle, if you don't know what you're doing. Or if you know what you're doing.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Gunslinger, if you bought any more guns, it would be because you just wanted it. You already have 5 time more than I.... It's just like being in the Army,"Smoke em if you got em"...

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from sarg wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Guys, all the post about hunting , life being short,ETC; About the time I was getting ready to start Muskie fishing, I was dianosed with Prostrate Cancer. Elected to have the surgery, good thing, It was worse once they operated but all seems good now. Should be well enough by Oct. Muzzle season and may still get the boat in the water for some good muskies which are realy going wild right now. Want to shoot a little but going by what Dr. say....

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from hunt3r wrote 4 years 30 weeks ago

do people still use pre-64 model 70's to hunt in africa? when i think about hunting africa, i think model 70 in 375 H&H.

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from FloridaHunter1226 wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Props to Peter... being able to shoot that gun after it doubled on him. I consider myself a man of pretty high pain tolerance but having to shoot that gun again would be quite difficult for me.

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from FloridaHunter1226 wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Props to Peter... being able to shoot that gun after it doubled on him. I consider myself a man of pretty high pain tolerance but having to shoot that gun again would be quite difficult for me.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Anyone who goes on a dangerous game hunt withouth firing atleast 2 boxes of ammo as fast as possible on short range on a target so big and close as to only require pointing not aiming deserves whats comming.. i wouldnt go on one withouth smooting my action to the point where i could breathe on it to make it move, tripplechecking extractor and ejector function and maybe even smooth out loading ramp and then checking that my trigger/safety works even if the gun gets bumped pretty hard.. actually broke a bauxelite recoil pad that way, installed pacmair and never looked back.. Your gun if u buy a working model not the fineshots exclusive ones worth the price of a mansion, is the smallest investment in a dangerous game hunt. Do it right.. and learn to use it.. gonna save your life..

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Good post , David.

While I don't hunt Africa or Alaska, there are some critters in every state in the West that can, and occasionally will, eat your lunch. Not having learned it the hard way, I cycle every round I take on a hunt through each rifle from the magazine rapidly. I also do it in the living room where the carpet catches the rounds without damaging them. Of course I don't do this when the wife is present and I don't point the rifle at one of the dogs. After the exercise, I inspect each round and put them back into their box and into the ammo can that will be taken on the hunt.

For those naysayers who deem that unsafe, I say that if I can't safely carry out that exercise, I have no business possessing a fiream in the first place. There are no bullet holes in my walls either.

I have never been mauled by a grizzly or lion becase my rifle failed to feed nor missed a trophy bull because a round failed to chamber. I have only read about the former and witnessed the latter.

Bot Scout Motto: Be prepared

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Good topic Dave! If you are hunting anything that can trample, maul, claw, stomp, or gore you, you had better KNOW the thing will go bang every time. I have met two gentlemen who both took the big five and they both used guns that were as far from custom as they could be. One of these fellows has gone to the Happy Hunting Ground now and I think about what he told me:
1)Never drink before the hunt -always after
2)only hunt with people you like a lot; yet would trust your life with and vice versa
3)never take a gun you can't readily find ammo for
4)be a good shot and damn sure of it before you go
5)always have a backup plan(in his mind this meant a pistol if the place he was at would allow it)

A 1911 saved his life when a Brown bear came in his camp one night.....

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from davidpetzal wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

To TJ: The .450 Dakota is almost a duplicate of the .458 Lott--500 grains at 2,400 fps. It can be loaded hotter, but the nice thing about lower pressures is they don't screw you up in hot weather. It is a very effective cartridge.

To all: I shot a .416 Remington with a muzzle brake. I won one event, disgraced myself in a second, and did OK in a third. That's the way it goes these days.

To CRM .30/06: If you can cycle 60 rounds through a rifle, slow fire and rapid-fire, with no problems, it's probably OK. For a dangerous-game rifle, make it 100rounds. If the dangerous game rifle has a wood stock, take the barreled action out after 100 shots and look for cracks.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I've been hunting for 30+ years. I've never had a bolt or lever action rifle fail to chamber a round. Not once. Not on the range and not in the field. They've all been American guns and they've all worked every time.

I wonder in re those abandoned American rifles in Africa, if operator error was the determining factor?

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from davidpetzal wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

TO SL: I agree with you in principle, but this happened 17 years ago, and who knows but that this manufacturer is now making flawless reliable rifles, and does not deserve to be beaten up for what they put out in the early 90s.

To Focus Front: The rifle I was shooting was a .416 Remington built on a McMillan action, which is push-feed, and about as reliable as they come. Neither type is more reliable; I've seen pre-64 Winchesters that could not get a cartridge out of the magazine, and the centerfire that I have shot the most, of anything, that has never failed, is a Remington 700.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I would be more suspect of "custom" guns from some obscure 'smith than a Remington or Weatherby production rifle. I have never had either fail and both are push-feeds. I have had a Rem 722 fail to extract due to a worn extractor, but it was a 50 year old rifle at the time!

I'd take a side bet that the rifles abandoned were Winchesters or Mauser actioned customs.

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I've provided much comic relief and been the butt of many jokes for shooting my 338 Winchester at everything that moves, and at almost every range session for the past few years. I have endured endless pounding from factory and handloads alike. I've shot over 400 rounds of factory ammo.
I always tell the jesters the same thing: "When I get back to Alaska this rifle is going to be an extension of my anatomy". The last thing I want is a big bear chewing on me, or someone else, because of my poor shooting or lousy gun-handling.
For my standing drills, (DEP's pie-plate at 100yds) I always put three down in the magazine and start from a closed bolt, with the rifle down. I shoot the magazine empty, and then I fire three more single-loading from my belt.
I've spent a bit of money buying parts and taking it to gunsmiths so that it will feed like butter. Always handing it over to shaking heads, (who still take my money) because it's "just a Savage". I'll keep my push-feed, Thank-You!
As long as the pointy-end is pointing forward, and the cartridge is within specs, the bolt closes and the rifle goes boom, no drama.
When I do move back to Alaska I won't have to worry about my rifle or my skills with it. I could care less what the small-bore guys think about it.
AKX

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I figure a .45-120 would be an interesting rifle for that sort of thing.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

It is only fair to add that early on, the 458 Win Mag was the only reasonably priced stopping rifle some PH's could afford. Now that better ammo is available this much maligned rifle is doing just fine.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Besides cycling rounds through the magazine you need to fire several full magazines through the rifle. Recoil may drop the floor plate down which at best is embarrassing at worst dangerous. Additionally, recoil can move the rounds around which may cause problems with cycling.

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from ishawooa wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Sounds like fun. We do a mini-version among some local friends mostly using boulders and prairie dogs for targets. By the way as you might expect its much easier to hit a p-dawg at 300 yards with a big scoped .22-.250 than at 100 yards with a .470 double and open sights. It would be interesting to determine the cause of each failure that DEP witnessed. As Happy pointed out much of the disenchantment with early .458 Win. turned out to be related to the ammunition manufacturing process although many of the rifles were blamed for failures (I think Carmichael wrote a piece on this once). I believe that situation has long been solved. Insofar as shooting big guns the same principle applies that makes for accurate shooting with the usual prairie dog and big game rifles...practice, practice, practice before the hunt.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

That's the first time I have heard PH's get Free rifles;that's one hellava tip!
That's an interesting shooting drill you boys play Dave, and I'm with Mike D. I have never experienced a jam with my bolt(savage) or lever(marlin) with factory or handload rounds....not to say it couldn't happen!

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from Carney wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Cycle everything.

I got a new 300 WinMag and began handloading for it 2 months ago. I had 10 rounds that weren't lubed enough inside the case mouth / neck. They were so tight coming out of the sizing die that the rims bent ever so slightly and I couldn't lever the bolt closed on them. It took a lot of thinking, looking and checking before the rim problem finally evidenced. What a drag it would be to get out in the field with bum cartridges -- to say nothing of an actual rifle, magazine, feed ramp, etc., problem.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Mark-1

The .35 Whelen is not by most folk's definition a dangerous game rifle, but it fits the bill as a close-in "dangerous bear" rifle for N. America. I take mine when hunting anything when in big bear country. That's why I bought it 20 years ago!

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from Mark-1 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter,

IMHO anything below .33 Calibers is a "deer" rifle. When you hunt with a .33 or .35 caliber or larger you're after the BIG STUFF...and don't want any arguments. That’s the nice thing about medium bores and heavy rifles. No arguments in your face.

A 338 or 35 Whelen/Norma Mag will waste a lion, Grizzly…even will nail a Cape buffalo….convincingly however, I prefer a 458..; or bigger if I could handle it.

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from Zermoid wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I wonder too how many of those failure to cycle problems are operator problems. My only centerfire bolt rifle is a old Swede Mauser which has been sporterized, I do occasionally have a problem with short stroking it, usually when slowly cycling it on the bench, go figure!
Never failed to cycle while hunting. Lever action Marlin 30-30 is the same story, occasional short stroking shooting targets, works fine for hunting. Got to be an adrenaline thing and trying to be gentle on it at the range I guess, gotta break that habit!

Personally prefer a lever or pump to a bolt myself, grew up shooting lever guns and pump shotguns, they just feel more natural to operate, only bolt rifles I shot growing up were 22's, guess I just have a mental block against a bolt being a real rifle!

And ALWAYS cycle every handloaded round thru the gun from the magazine before the hunt, just to be sure it is going to feed smoothly. Factory ammo too, altho you got better odds with factory rounds.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Both my brother and uncle got sporterised swede mausers.. its the angle of the arm combined with the adjusted bolthandle that gives the problem.. i say slam it.. u wont break it in any way unless your gunsmith did shoddy work in the first place.. even on the bench, develop a very positive cycling.. chack-chack!!! did it with my german m98 mauser and didnt break a thing.. shot like a mf and never miscycled:P

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

LOL! I think you would need to cycle the bolt with a sledgehammer to break a German K98 Mauser ....

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from Gunslinger wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I use a 700 CDL Classic when hunting with a 30-06. For the reson stated above I never load but 4 rounds in the chamber. I want the first round to feed from the box and not have one in the chamber.If you misplace the shells in the magazine, it will show up then, not when you need the 2nd shot.That may be teh oly shot you have a option to take on any hunt and I want things working proper and no guess wrk. I read some gun is now using a coil spring in the magazine rather than the z type spring? should be better, as the z typecan catch over the sides of you magazine or Box. If i cannot gt my Animal down with 4 shoots,I need to pratice more or buy a different type firesrm. Recoil on high power firearms is 99 % the cause of both bbls going off,or ether your finger is sticking out to catch the 2nd trigger. Never buy a single trigger big caliber gun or one that goes to Auto safety after the first shot.Shoot-um-straight and often,especially the day befoe depature.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Buy a Weatherby Mark V. The bolt and handle are from one forging.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

How the heck was drinking beer, talking about hunting, and looking at trophies a wasted day? LOL

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter & crm3006,
It was a wasted day in the sense that I was young and broke and was being paid to WORK. However, I will not now or ever turn down a beer that needs drinking, or fail to BS with someone about a common interest. It was a priceless experience. I wish y'all could've been there.

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from DakotaMan wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Just a thought on the differences with dangerous game... Your life may depend on one split second chance to shoot considering two big factors:
1) Adrenalin: People act and react completely different when highly stoked on adrenalin. They take the safety off (or miss it) different, hit the trigger with their finger different and reload different. For example, in frantic reloading a Mauser action, I pulled the bolt back so fast that inertia moved my bolt shroud back far enough to rotate, locking the action open... this was caused by a weak shroud keeper spring... once fixed, it was fine but had it happened on a lion charge, I would have been dead. IT was a great mauser, it just wasn't ready for adrenalin unitl repaired. Don't just run the bullets through... RUN the bullets through FAST and HARD! Pull that bolt hard enough to rip it OFF, drop it on the scope a few times in the process. If it holds together for you, you are good to go.
2) Unusual conditions: The rifle has to work in all conditions, spray it with a hose, open the action and throw in a handful of mud and lay on your back while you fire it upside down overhead. You may find that the push extractor drops the bullet on your forehead instead of putting it in the chamber or that you can't actually get the bolt shut on your high priced and pretty rifle. To survive, you must be ready for all conditions and they may not all be ideal.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Dave,
What were you shooting? I hope you did not wimp out and use a 375.
Buck Buckner chairman of the records committee of North American Big Game for Boone and Crockett used to host such a shoot in Oregon. Separates the men from the intelligent ones.

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from Harold wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Since my most powerful rifle is a 30/06, and I think that's a powerful rifle, I don't shoot the big-bores too much. I have, from time to time, fired other's and I think I'll stick to my main rifle, a 7X57. However, checking to see if a rifle feeds and functions before a hunt is a good idea no matter what rifle or what's hunted.--Harold

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from randwarner wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Was it Win M70s that failed?

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from Bernie wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

The only bolt-action centerfire I've ever owned that would not feed properly from the magazine was a Model 700 Classic in .222 Rem. I bought the rifle new in the mid-90s. When I noticed the problem I took it to a gunshop in Helena, MT that is an authorized Remington dealer. They ground an illicit piece of metal off part of the magazine box (at least that's what they told me), and I haven't had a problem since. With only a 6X Leupold for magnification I have shot .5 and .6" groups with this rifle.

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from MaxPower wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Dave, I'm probably not alone in wishing I could've been a fly on the wall at your big-bore shoot. If ever F+S will spring for a toady to follow you with a video camera to add authenticity or a touch of reality, I call dibs on the job...or if you just need a volunteer, I'm game.

So what events were they where you won, did OK and were disgraced in??

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I have a Remington 700 classic in 350 rem mag. and it will not eject the empty if you work the bolt fast.The gun extracts the case and leaves it on top of the next round in the magazine. It wasn't a problem in Ak because since I was aware I just tipped the rifle as the bolt came back and the empty fell out. Haven't hunted with that gun in years. One of these days need to get it fixed.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Ralph the Rifleman-
It does make one tend to wonder, doesn't it.
I would like to know if the malfunctions were mechanical, or operator error? Maybe that old boogeyman the "short stroke"? Whatever the cause, I intend to thoroughly check out my Winchesters before going into bear country, even though I have never had this problem with Remingtons, Winchesters, Mauser, Ruger, or Savage. BUT very few whitetail deer turn around and start hunting the hunter.

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from dickgun wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I wonder if that 8 bore might be the one that Lew Drake had for sale in his booth at SCI a couple years back. I remember a shopper asking Lew, "now what would you shoot with an 8 bore," to which Lew replied, "anything you want to!!"

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from sarg wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

While at the range one day my friend while shooting a weatherby bolt gun in .300Win Mag was shooting to the left on every shot. asked me to shoot it and I did hitting the target 's exact center. He was flinching so bad that he would pull to the left fearing the recoil. Something he and only he can overcome. . By the way , I wouldn't carry a .300 WM here in E. Ky. if it was given me. It's silly to have so much rifle for deer here in the hills. maybe out West or some where else, but not here. I'll stick with .308 size cartridges and enjoy shooting instead of fearing the next shot....

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from sarg wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

DAVE, sometimes we stab ourselves in the back, Know what I mean...

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from PbHead wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I can't believe this post went this long and nobody mentioned shooting a Marlin Guide Gun. Dave, would I be laughed off the line if I showed up with a true big bore lever gun in say 45-70?

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Carney

It is always a wise thing to check the first few resized cases for chambering in the rifle. I loaded a bunch of .257 Roberts last year that would not chamber without excessive bolt pressure and most would not chamber at all. I'm glad I only spoiled a trip to the range, not a hunt. Had my dies set up incorrectly. Lesson learned by me - always check for chambering before loading and then chamber/cycle every round before the hunt!

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from Carney wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

WA Mnt Hunter: You and I are on the same page. When I bought the BLR, I made up 3 dummy rounds just to see how the action handled. The mag was defective and wouldn't feed round 2 or 3 without a few good raps on the bottom. Browning sent a new mag and paid to have the feed ramp polished!

PBHead: You are a man after my own heart! While I just bought this BLR in 300 WinMag -- my all time favorite is my Marlin 1895 in 45-70! My 15 year old son will carry it in this Fall's hunting season. We have loaded up some cartridges with Hornady Leverevolution bullets and I expect it will make my favorite gun a 200 yarder!

Also, I'm surprised that so many find the 300winmag to have excessive recoil. It just seems normal to me, but that's probably due to shooting really hot loads with 300 - 405 grain bullets out of my Marlin...

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from Mark-1 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I’ve have two dangerous game rifles that have actually had/seen action. One is a custom Mauser in 35 Whelen. The other is post 64 Winchester Model 70 in 458. I’ve never had problems with feeding, extraction and ejection with either rifle, but I prefer Mauser action in a dangerous game rifle. Neither rifle is a “stock” rifle after I finished tinkering. I wonder how many hunters have been thoughtful and reflective enough to do what I will describe.

I’m anal on ejection and extraction so both rifles have lots of attention in these areas. The actions have been honed and trued to eliminate drag. Feed ramps polished.

The 458 has those marvelous Winchester express sights, and a 1x5 variable Tasco World Class scope. This scope isn’t top end, but it’s proven very reliable and stable for 16-years on this rifle. I have likely shot 1700 rounds through this rifle. I dare say I have shot 200 practice rounds for every shot fired in action.

I spent considerable time and effort adjusting the scope relief to fit me with alignment as I mount this rifle from low gun. I don’t want to fuss adjusting to my scope under dramatic situation….and 458’s are for dramatic situations.

The Mauser in 35 Whelen lacked iron sights having an old Redfield 2x7 variable I bought 30-years ago. Again, lots of attention paid how this scope is mounted to have proper eye relief and alignment. This rifle I recently passed on to my son. He’ll be hunting the western mountains and Alaska as I did.

Previous posts describe my drills in prep for the field.

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter,
I wholeheartedly agree with you on the capability of the .308 cartridge. There are some places that do not allow military rounds for hunting (i.e. no .308/7.62, no 30/06 etc.) as capable as they may be. There are also places that do have a minimum caliber size requirement for dangerous game. Then there are PH's and guides who have their minimum preferences too.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

sgareneck, A .308 win. is not a military round, It is the commercial equiv. of the 7.62 NATO.IT is not a military round as all military rounds are Full metal jacketed which is illigal even here at home to hunt with.

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from davidpetzal wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

To PB Head. In fact, a member showed up a few years ago with a Guide Gun, but was beaten unmercifully and not allowed to compete. If you want to use a .45 rifle, it's got to be at least a .458 Winchester Magnum.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Mark-1

You are correct. Nothing I ever shot with the .35 Whelen uttered even a peep in argument. I like to shoot a lot, so anything bigger than the .35 Whelen or 7mm Weatherby is more recoil than I want to deal with. I would reconsider that if I were going to Africa.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I've listened over sundowners around the campfire to misadventures regarding recycling heavy rifles. I suspect sometimes pilot error is involved. There is something about pulling down on a cape buffalo for the first time that brings out the jitters in almost anyone.

This has been fun post. Dave, come up with some more.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

well yeah originally, but the sporterized versions u sometimes get bad welds on the bolt handle and if your gunsmith sporterising it didnt do good work the handle actually can break.. seen it happen twice.. should have seen the look in the eyes of those guys:P even worse one had a loaded chamber and the bolt had not closed enough for him to fire the round.. took a leatherman and alot of swearing to free it so he could transport it home and send it to a gunsmith safely:P

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I just think it sad that most american weapons are only half finished and that most american citizens think its supposed to be that way.. some european manufacturers ran out of buisness by the majors from usa got a helluva better action than the big american ones.. my rifle`s action is as old as i am and have never ever misfired with ammo that was less than 30 years old and have never had any feeding etc. problems ever.. can slam it to my hears desire and it still shoots 20mm at 200 yards with anything but barnes-x factory bullets.. havent even gotten into reloading because it shoots better with factory ammo than i can ever use in the field.. and i dont use more bullets in the field than i can afford any year..
peace out yall!:P

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Well i feel u on yer gunchoice bro, but still whats the investment on a better spring for yer gun compared to the value of yer life in a situation where something that will seriously fugh u up if it gets to ya?? I know the old saying that states spend more money on yer scope than yer gun, but recently u get more value fer money from yer scope than u did 10 years ago.. i say spend more money on yer gun than u can afford.. its the last line of defence in hunting anything dangerous.. whats yer life worth?????? besides... getting familiar with yer rifle is gonna save yer life if u really need it.. and even a Z spring can be bent into service if u know what yer doing.. just ask bob dunlap:D

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Sarg,
Thank you for correcting me on the .308 cartridge. I did some background and I will attempt to correct and clarify my statement(s).
1).308 is indeed the civilian version of 7.62 NATO. I incorrectly lumped them together in my brief description. There IS a difference, especially for you and I here in the U.S. of A. However, in other parts of the world SOME organizations, airlines , and governments see no distinction. They treat ANY 7.62 ammunition or firearms as war materiel and to my understanding some do not differentiate between .308 & 7.62 NATO because of the interchangeability. I do not, nor have I ever advocated AP, FMJ or any kind of true military ammunition for use on game. I made the .308/7.62 statement in an oversimplified way for brevity's sake, because if you were to travel with it on the wrong route to the right place, or on the wrong aircarrier on your way to your destination it could ruin an expensive hunt.

I stand (mostly) corrected on 30/06 - I had read some years back that it was considered a military round first and foremost and some governments did not allow it. Some still do not (supposedly France, Italy among others) but not a lot of hunting going on there.
It has basically sunsetted as a military round and is now more largely considered a sporting round. I would still check diligently before traveling out of the USA,
as there could be unforseen regulations in dark corners of the world.

P.S. Not trying to be a smart-aleck but ALL 7.62 NATO being FMJ - that is not entirely the case. There is a tear gas variant and a Glaser safety slug variant. But 99.9999% of it IS FMJ of some sort.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

sgaredneck, good post.... I know that the .308 and 30.06 has been used in many countries as a hunting round.
I believe it was you who stated "the gentleman used his .308 on six contients.

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Sarg,
I'm in South Georgia about an hour from the FL line. Thank you for the comment.
crm3006,
Work is a relative thing. Sometimes you have more than you know what to do with. Times like now for me there is zip... I told someone the other day this was gonna be the year I made up for all the Fall/Winter seasons that I was too busy to hunt. I will make the best of it.
DEP,
Sorry I helped run us off topic. I'll try to do better on the next one.

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from Gunslinger wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Life is short at best. The economy s in the pits, but how many years of hunting do we have left.Me, I;m 74 and very fe left at best. Have decided from here on out, I will buy what-ever I need, really need and try to hunt all I can wherever it may be. My healthis like the weather, good and bad days. This year not been well for 6 or so months, but now feeling somewhat better and looking forward to 2 months of w-tail hunting her at home. As for guns,can spend whatevr you have or can afford. Scopes, anothe story. The mid range scope is as good as wee need, not the Wally-world 39.95's but something like a Nikon Monarch is great. All my western guns carry Nikon. My home use guns cary the Bushnell Dusk to dawn in 3 x 10 x 40 with the handy end eye focus( as Nikon has been doing for a while. The Bushnell is a good scope late and early and with the focus eye piece ( no rings to tighten, you simply adjust as you do your Bincs. I love beautiful wood as well as the next guy and my Rocky mtn guns are all Walnut. I'm going to try a new MArlin XL7 in 270 here at home for my first ever 270/If budget is vry tight, they finance a tad longer and by the gun, scope you want. I skimed and saved for years before I really bought quality firearms, both in rigfles, shotguns and handguns. I doubt any gun I own would not dble my investment. So fro hense forth, what I want I will work a way to buy and if next season I'm living, will apply for Elk and Mulie deer and lopes in the Western states. Got enough w-tails here at home to keep me busy this fall. I own many scopes, firearms that have had since the early 50's and they good as ever.So from now till I'm unable to hunt, I plan to buy what I want. Hey, have you guys heard of a Parker 5 shot revolver shotgun? I'm reading a Western Novel and they talk of this gun a lot, I never heard of it. Fill me in if you know about it. Good luck to all you guys, Shoot-um-straight and very often. Don;t appear to brag, just stating facts of life when you my age. Time runs short.

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from TJ wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Any thoughts on the 450 Dakota

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

DEP-
Is there a reliable test to determine the rifle's function, other than cycling live rounds through the action? I was working with my .375 H&H last week, everything seemed fine on slow fire, but you got me thinking.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Thanks, DEP-
100 rounds of .375 is no small amount of change these days, but is does beat relying on hope when you consider the possibilities.
Murphy's Law, etc....

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from SL wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Yeah, why don't you tell us the name of this "particular American make"? That's why those product test articles that magazines love to do are really a joke. The American gun writer gets to shoot and test everything that is out there, yet they never tell us the WHOLE story on the stuff that doesn't measure up. If we actually read about products that stunk once in a while, I would be more inclined to believe that the writers aren't being paid off to write good reports only. I won't hold my breath, though!

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I have a Ruger 375 Alaskan, that I need to shoot a lot more, but I only own 18 rounds of brass, (one is in my brother's cartridge board the other lost in the weeds at the range) and can't find any more. I have just enough cartridges to go hunting this fall if I don't find some more.
I'll have to put some brass on backorder with Cabela's and maybe someday (I've had primers on backorder since April) those will come in too.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

AlaskanExile-
Try Midway USA. Don't know what bullet wt. your gun likes, but they had a fairly decent selection last Friday. Hope this helps.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Dave,

Does the fellow who owns the 8 bore now go by the name of Saint Peter?

I'd love to try it out, but not in that dosage.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Del

I had a 722 that did the same thing with nickel plated cases (mostly). Worn or undersized extractor fails to properly grip the rim. Change it and I bet it will stop that.

WMH

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from freeparking wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

An account of a dangerous game hunt where things didn't go so well: http://www.fmft.net/archives/004076.html#more

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Sarg,
The gentleman who gave me the sage advice (and is now sadly departed) did more with his .308 on six continents
than any other I know of. I remind myself of that regularly when I punish myself with some of the stuff I've lustfully purchased.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Sarge & sgaredneck

Big magnums are only "required" by the hunter, not the game. I took my first mule deer and elk with a .308 Winchester many moons ago. They were just as dead as the ones taken with bigger rifles.

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from davidpetzal wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

To PB Head. In fact, a member showed up a few years ago with a Guide Gun, but was beaten unmercifully and not allowed to compete. If you want to use a .45 rifle, it's got to be at least a .458 Winchester Magnum.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Good post, gunslinger, be E-mailing you soon.....

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from sarg wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Gunsliger, Got a DVD of the elk here in Ky. I need get to you....

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Sarg,
The fellow who did all the hunting with the .308 probably did his last Africa hunt in the 80's. He himself told me of hassles here and there and how it would have been easier to just take a .375 H&H or a 300 Win. mag but he knew he could count on that very battered Ruger M77. I met him @ '92 or '93 when I was sent to his vacation house to do some insurance work. My boss at the time (who was and still is an avid hunter/shooter) told me to bring up hunting with him. I wasted the whole day drinking beer and listening to
the old guy tell stories and looking at his trophies. :)

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

"I wasted the whole day drinking beer and listening to the old guy tell stories and looking at his trophies..."
Wasted day? Wasted day, indeed. Get your priorities in order, man!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

The only thing better would be to throw in a little fishing!

All Rise for the national anthem - - -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib8nH4kHjxk

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

sgaredneck-
I share your sentiment- ain't it awful when you are in such a fix you have to work for a living?

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from sarg wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

sgaredneck, you sound like a likeable person, where do you hail from ?

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from sarg wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Well, don't recon you ran off topic, still talking about Shooting, hunting etc. I'm retired now so I'm going to try more shooting and hunting. I'm in E.Ky. where we have a large herd of elk , may try my luck at the draw. Saw one herd with 145-150 elk at about 100yds. shouldn't be much of a problem for the ole' Rem. in .308...

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from ggmack wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

i like my 416 rigby. I was unsure if it would be to much but, I researched the Cape Buffalo and croc I am planning to hunt, I practiced of pie plates at 100, 75, 50, 25, and 7 yards, i can handle it now.

My main gun is either a 300 Win Mag or a 12 gauge pump.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

thats where a mauser action properly set up shines through like none other.. huge tolerances and controlfeed.. Not on the bench shooting tiny groups..
But i actually got a pushfeed that wont drop bullets out upside down belive it or not:P

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Gunslinger;
Well stated Sir! Way to put it in perspective! How many days does any of us really have to hunt, shoot and enjoy the outdoors (fish if you have to)?
All of our days are numbered, we have to treat them as the valuable commodity that they are.
Sometimes you can get more money, but seldom can you use that money to buy better health, and you can never use it to buy more time...

AKX

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from Douglas wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Peter certainly does have guts. I had a 12 ga O/U fire both barrels with turkey loads. I wince every time I fire it now.
Good point on cycling full magazines. I am guilty of following the same single shot routine.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Happy-
I had a .30-'06 dump a magazine of shells due to a defective catch one day while shooting a turkey. Ever since, I have had the latches inspected and even sealed one. Thanks for the tip.

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from focusfront wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Dave Petzal;

It is highly significant (to me as a Remington shooter) that you were shooting a .416 Remington. For years we've been listening to "the controlled feed Mauser is superior to the push feed Remington type action" when it comes to dangerous game rifles. Well, this was a chance for that to be tested. I realize that 16 bolt rifles is not a scientific random sampling (although you have been doing this for a while, and with your 144 IQ can no doubt remember what happened in past shoots), but it may show something. Just answer this; is there any particular type action that is better than the other? Or are all rifles individuals, good when properly set up and bad otherwise?

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from ggmack wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

i like my 416 rigby. I was unsure if it would be to much but, I researched the Cape Buffalo and croc I am planning to hunt, I practiced of pie plates at 100, 75, 50, 25, and 7 yards, i can handle it now.

My main gun is either a 300 Win Mag or a 12 gauge pump.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Gunslinger, you going to put in for elk here inKY. or come up and try for a bear in dec.

Glad you are feeling better.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Gunslinger,

Hang in there my friend. Always good to see your posts.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

We hope to see you in Craig, CO next year! Keep those posts coming1

WA Mtnhunter

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from Gunslinger wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Thanks for the kind words guys. I hope and pray I have any hunting days left and beabe to purchae another firearm or two. Too bad we not born rich, and be abe to hunt in early life. But plan to enjoy what is left to the fullest. Tae care, thanks again. Shoot-um-straight and often.

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from O Garcia wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

I suppose if John Rigby built his first bolt action PH rifles out of Lee-Enfield actions instead of those sainted Magnum Mausers, "CRF" fans today would be singing the praises of the Lee-Enfield instead of the Mauser. I'm putting forward the idea that the Mauser (and by extension, the WinM70) got its sterling reputation partly because it looks so damn pretty when cleaned up. I'm not saying it has no merits, obviously it has, but it wasn't alone.

It's not whether it's controlled-round-feed or push-feed. It's how well it's made. You could make a totally unreliable Mauser-style rifle, if you don't know what you're doing. Or if you know what you're doing.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Gunslinger, if you bought any more guns, it would be because you just wanted it. You already have 5 time more than I.... It's just like being in the Army,"Smoke em if you got em"...

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from sarg wrote 4 years 34 weeks ago

Guys, all the post about hunting , life being short,ETC; About the time I was getting ready to start Muskie fishing, I was dianosed with Prostrate Cancer. Elected to have the surgery, good thing, It was worse once they operated but all seems good now. Should be well enough by Oct. Muzzle season and may still get the boat in the water for some good muskies which are realy going wild right now. Want to shoot a little but going by what Dr. say....

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from hunt3r wrote 4 years 30 weeks ago

do people still use pre-64 model 70's to hunt in africa? when i think about hunting africa, i think model 70 in 375 H&H.

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from FloridaHunter1226 wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Props to Peter... being able to shoot that gun after it doubled on him. I consider myself a man of pretty high pain tolerance but having to shoot that gun again would be quite difficult for me.

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from FloridaHunter1226 wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Props to Peter... being able to shoot that gun after it doubled on him. I consider myself a man of pretty high pain tolerance but having to shoot that gun again would be quite difficult for me.

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