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Petzal: Praise the Lord (Quietly) and Pass the Ammo

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January 26, 2010

Petzal: Praise the Lord (Quietly) and Pass the Ammo

By David E. Petzal

Trijicon Company of Wixom, MI, has been noted for years for its red dot sights, and for its scopes with non-battery-required illuminated reticles. They make terrific sights and are nice people. Because the company was founded by a devout Christian, they have also, for many years, stamped references to New Testament verses on their scope tubes. This, it seems, is in violation of the U.S. Constitution, and is distressing to the American soldiers and Marines who use Trijicons, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, American senior commanders including General David Petraeus, and probably Osama Bin Laden, although he cannot be reached for comment

Under intense pressure from all of the preceding, Trijicon announced on January 21st that it will cease the practice, and will supply 100 kits to the military to remove the politically incorrect references. Well, fine, as a card-carrying American I believe in the separation of church and state, and it’s obvious that the Constitution cannot survive a series of small letters and numbers on 300,000 Trijicon sights.

However, let us not do things by half measures. The U.S. military still stamps your religion on your dogtags, and it must be intolerable to many to be shot by people who are clearly labeled Methodist or Catholic or Jewish. So no more religions on the dogtags. And while we’re at it, no more Christian or Jewish chaplins. And no more crosses at Arlington.

In these politically correct times, making these adjustments is no less than our sacred duty. Ooops, sorry about that “sacred” sneaking in there.

Comments (532)

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from jlamar wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

kind of surprised to hear complaints from our servicemen. I understand Trijicon needs their military contract. I'm glad to hear their not changing their civilian products.

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

In the words of a popular southern radio morning show character. "My big old butt..." Since when does government interfere with free enterprise? Oh... sorry... Upon taking a second glance I am mistaken... Looks like government now runs most of our free enterprise business...

+13 Good Comment? | | Report
from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I had known about this(the verse inscriptions) for a while, but isn't it odd that the story comes to a head under Barack Hussein Obama's tenure as teleprompter-in-chief?

Don't look at me, look at them. My left hand, not my right hand. Classic 'blame somebody else for something' story.

An F-bomb would be appropriate right about here....

+10 Good Comment? | | Report
from RobertBlogger wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Part of the constitution is, freedom of religion, believe what you may. You're not going to offend me.

www.gunsellers.com

+8 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

In violation of the U.S. Constitution?

Where does that say that!

It doesn't dar Pilgrim! :)

"CONGRESS" (not Trijicon) shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or "PROHIBITING" the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

+22 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

From Clays archives of bookmarks, places, information and things to read,

America, Canada , all Europe .....need a President like this

Prime Minister John Howard Australia:
Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.
Quote: 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians'.

'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'. 'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'

'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'

'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'

'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,

'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'

'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'

Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, American citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing the
same truths.

+33 Good Comment? | | Report
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Oh my aching ache! Political correctness must be imposed upon a major manufacturer of hardware, used to kill folks with! obummer, the TOTUS, the ghosts of his Marxist mentors, and that coterie of leftists in the White House must be having a victory celebration about now, since the one about the Massachusetts election was suddenly canceled.

+10 Good Comment? | | Report
from SL wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

As silly as anyone getting excited over this might be, I thank Petzal for making me aware of the fact that these scopes have such things inscribed on them. Do their hunting scopes have this also? I have never heard of anything so ridiculous as bible verses inscribed on scopes. That's just too funny. I wonder if you can get one for a lower (or higher) price without the inscription?? LOL

-8 Good Comment? | | Report
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Well said, Coop!

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from SL wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

It doesn't dar Pilgrim! :)
"CONGRESS" (not Trijicon) shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or "PROHIBITING" the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Well, technically you are correct, but since the government did BUY these from Trijicon, they are now government property with religious inscriptions on them. I have no doubt some of you would have problems with Islamic text on American equipment, yet if Trijicon could get away with this why couldn't someone else with some other religious inscriptions??

+8 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

In these politically correct times?

TRULY BS!!

"The political machine triumphs because it is a united minority acting against a divided majority."
-Will Durant

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from JD wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I would venture to guess that you who agree with this philosophy to banish the "evil" religious inscription do not want to handle any US dollars then?? OMG, lookie there what it says! Gasp and egads! Please forward those evil bills directly to me forthwith (grin)

+8 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Ya ‘know, I'm getting fed up with these linguini spined individuals who cower at the slightest change of wind! They call themselves Somethingarather American or better put, a hyphenated American. For me I am a proud American willing to give my life for it, just happen to be a white male of European decent and believing Jesus Christ is my Lord and savior.

For those who say and believe in the separation of Church and State, you need to go back to school and to understand and to know the truth in the history of this great Country!

And to whom I offend?
GET OVER IT!

+13 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Beekeeper +1 for you SIR!

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from JD wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Mr. Petzal, Just a note to say "thank you" to you and Phil for the excellent coverage of the 2010 SHOT Show, best of any website I found! (I searched quite a few, btw) Both of you men kept it lively and informative. Thank you!!

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming....

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from JD wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

God bless you Coop, great posts!!

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

SL

You do have a valid point Sir, same goes believing Gays should not be in the Military for the Religious Regions they must go.

The sword cuts both ways!

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Anyone know where I can find a good engraver to put a verse on Old Ugly's scope? John 3:16 comes to mind, or a passage out of the 23rd Psalm...

+8 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I second JD on the Shot Show and a +1 for you Sir!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

crm3006 GOOD IDEA! and a +1!!

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from SL wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

" I would venture to guess that you who agree with this philosophy to banish the "evil" religious inscription do not want to handle any US dollars then?? OMG, lookie there what it says! Gasp and egads! Please forward those evil bills directly to me forthwith (grin)"

What GOD are they talking about on the dollar bill?? Is it the christian one, the jewish one, some eight armed hindu god maybe? Whole different ballgame than bible versus put on a scope made by a devout christian on government property. I myself could care less whether these scopes are scrapped or not from military use, only pointing out that if you give one religion a free pass on this, the others may soon be allowed to follow, and I think some of you would then be singing a different tune, in fact I know you would.

+7 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I could care less about the New Testament verses. I want to go OLD TESTAMENT on those sorry terrorists and jihadists! Kill 'em all and let God sort out their sorry asses. That's my story and I'm sticking to it...

+16 Good Comment? | | Report
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

SL-
I doubt there is any question about what God the Founders refered to. "We hold these truths to be self evident....."

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from JD wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

SL,

That verse was present on the Trijicon sights when the miltary procurement process took place, seems no body objected until recently. If it's a big deal to you, cover it with a piece of electrical tape....

and don't forget to send those dollars my way :-}

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from hengst wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Mr. Cooper...outstanding agree 110% thanks

I personally am sick and absolutely (inseert the bomb) tired of political correctness. I would like to meet the donkeys behind that even started the hell raising about the verses on my acog. As 86ram and myself have stated their is nothing wrong with a little faith at the right time I know for a fact that it saved my bacon alot. The biggest problem is some "fine person" discovered a well known fact and figured they could stir up a hornets nest and garner some attention. i have yet to meet a Soldier that gave a damn about the scriptures , most liked it. Some poor fool decided to run to Martin Bashir of ABC news and gripe again I say MArtin Bashir of ABC news....How about I am tired of a handfull of people and their views shaping and changing what our nation was founded on and forcing me to keep my views silent...Furthermore I say put the 10 commandments back in the courthouse and Indivisable UNDER GOD...is great to say before school starts. I, my family, my kids and my grandkids are andwill always be patriots.

Sorry for the rant but.....

+8 Good Comment? | | Report
from hengst wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Sl

Good point but fact is the government and in particular the Army can be extremely hypocritical when it comes to religious beliefs and this stems from the nasty political correctness....Don't want to change the topic but see Ft Hood and the history behind the handling of Nidal Malik Hasan...I have seen similar things myself so it is by no means isolated..but ohh now they want to crackdown ...truly interesting

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mjenkins1 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

There are other optics manufacturers. If you don't like Trijicon's view on things, buy else ware and let that be it. This "political correctness" is driving me crazier.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from buckhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

My understanding is that it's not the servicemen who are upset with the very small religious sign on the scope but the Iraqi Police who are given the weapons. In which case it is not an issue of religion and state but more an issue of of appeasing an allie whom has very strong religious convictions.

+9 Good Comment? | | Report
from hal herring wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Well, I don't like political correctness, either.

But I do know something about the Sepoy Rebellion of 1857, when 200,000 native Hindu and Muslim troops rose up to attack the 40,000 troops of the British East India Company. The leaders of the insurgency against the Brits had spread the rumor that the new cartridges for the 1853 Enfields that were issued to the native troops were greased with either a) pig fat, which Muslims are forbidden to eat, or b)cow tallow, from cattle that the Hindu troops consider sacred.

Since a shooter had to bite the end off the cartridge before putting it in the rifle, both the Muslims and the Hindu troops were being commanded to contaminate themselves spiritually by a bunch of infidels.

The Brits fought like wild men. The oddly designed Le Mat revolver probably killed more insurgents in that war than it ever would again. 100s of thousands of fighetrs and non-combatants died, as the rebellion spread across
the sub-continent. By the end of the year, the rebellion was almost crushed, but things were never going to be the same.

You do see what I'm getting at? For us to ask our Muslim allies- and we do have them, and we can't win it without them- to shoot other Muslims, on our orders, with rifle sights inscribed with verses from the Christian Bible?

That is the equivalent of the pig and cow fat, a gift of propaganda that just keeps on giving to our enemies.

We are trying to win wars here, friends. Trijicon has every right to put Biblical references on their sights. They can paint full portraits of the Pope on them for all I care. Just don't expect the US govt to buy them and put them to use. Please don't let your religious proselytizing cost our US soldiers their lives.

+14 Good Comment? | | Report
from SL wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I doubt there is any question about what God the Founders refered to. "We hold these truths to be self evident....."

Maybe not since there was hardly anyone on this soil who was a member of any other old world religion, but they were smart enough to keep the religion part to a minimum nonetheless. If the christian religion God was the ONLY one they were referring to I have no doubt that they wouldn't have had a problem with christian crosses being displayed in federal buildings. So far I have never seen one.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

However, until recentely, most had the Ten Commandments.
Kinda removes all doubt, there, doesen't it?

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from SL wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Good post, Hal, although I think some of the good christians here wouldn't view the Popes picture on one of these scopes in the same way they would a bible verse! LOL

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from SL wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

True, I never doubted the fact that Moses was a jew.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from horseman308 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

For what it's worth, people have been inscribing religious phrases on their weapons for as long as weapons and religion have existed at the same time. All the political stuff aside, I can't say I'm all that surprised it happened at all and I'm a little surprised it hasn't been done more.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

This thread, Petzal's comment, and the follow ons, are wrong in too many ways to list them all. So I'll just dump on Dave. By now he may be used to it.

Whether or not you think deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan are just wars or just boondoggles, you're probably interested in seeing the US win, or at least walk away without leaving the place too much worse for the wear. Unless, of course, you're Osama bin Targeted, in which case you want to make the whole thing a big propaganda victory concerning the Islamsits versus the Crusdaders. So, setting aside the predictable assertion that god only loves christians, WHOSE STRATEGIC INTEREST IS SERVED BY PUTTING NEW TESTAMANT STUFF ON SIGHTS? If you want the US to win, it would seem to be a bad move to provide evidence to the bad guys that the US deployment really is about proselytization rather than offing stateless thugs.

Quite apart from that, anyone who imagines the US was created as a "Christian nation" is incorrect. Try reading the United States Constitution some time. The only place you'll find reference to a deity of any kind is on the signature page, wherein, following the convention of the day, the date is given as "In the year of our lord, 1783." If the Constitutional Congress had meant for the Constitution to invoke the 10 Commandments, then the Constition would have invoked the 10 Commandments, &c.

+8 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

In nam we had a good paraphrase on the 23rd Psalm (David BTW wrote the original.

Yea tho I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I shall fear no evil.

For I am the Meanest B*stard in the Valley!

1/7th Cavalry "Garry Owen!"

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Moishe-
That paraphrase survived into the '70s, with some additions. I wish I could remember all of it, it was the unofficial motto of the 173rd. Abn. Bde.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

The obnoxious thing is that these verses on the scopes raised a fuss. Apparently some of our soldiers are tough enough to handle roadside bombs and terrorists, but put a Scripture reference on their scopes and they wet their pants.

Here is the difference; every day we see that in Obamerica year 2010, Christians have no right to public Christianity in America, but atheists DO have a right to their atheism, and they are permitted to shove their beliefs down our throats whenever they get the chance. It is ATHEISTS who are doing the proselytizing, not CHRISTIANS. That atheists are the empowered by the government shows who our masters in Washington are backing, for now.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from JD wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Maybe just ship a small file with the optics so the user can remove if desired?

Thanks David P, "stir the pot" once in a while?? Hehe!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from IowaGuy wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Mike Diehl & hal herring you are correct!

Also dog tags have religion for another reason; in case of WIA or KIA for spiritual counsel or last rites per your particular religious beliefs be it Methodist, Jewish, Hindu, Islam, Church of CHrist, Atheist, Wicca, Mormon, what ever. Headstones for the same reason to respect the individuals religious beliefs and freedom.

Imagine if the supplier was a Hindu and was putting their religious quotes on the scopes, many of the posters would be screaming about it.

Sep. of church and state

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sharkfin wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Where in the Constitution does is say anyone has the right to not be offended? This is still ONE NATION, UNDER GOD! Sadly, I'm just not so sure we're indivisible anymore.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from jamesti wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

it's the one who claims to have no faith that will be the first to pray when the sh*t hits the fan!

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jeff Bowers wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I have no problem carrying such a sight on my weapon.

If I am torqued at anyone, it would be the "concerned individual" who opened his mouth. I don't think the troops cared, and the Iraqi Police wouldn't have put it together by themselves.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from JohnR wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Oh boy, I'm not getting into this one!

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from JHawes wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I think the reason for the separation of church and state in the constitution was to relieve citizens of religious persecution and allow them to practice freely. Now it persecutes anybody who shows their religion outside of a church. Its all gone a bit too far in the past decade or so. Its strange that the people who want us to change or eliminate our religious beliefs are the same ones who want you to adopt theirs, but they will never give you the time of day to even explain yours, because to them its all make believe and fairy tales. They are atheist and because they have nothing heavenly to look forward to after they die they would rather make others feel crummy while they scrounge around on this earth.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

It's interesting to know how many people truly do not know the history of the United States. When you listen to the News or reading the Daily Rag, do you believe it to be fact or is it slanted to sale and make ratings to the public? I know firsthand if someone doesn’t slant the article to sale or tells the truth, they are out of a job.
For those who use and believe the coined term “The Separation of Church and State” shows just how ignorant one can get. The original 13 States, each State had the right of choice of Religion not for 12 States telling that State what Religion it will follow. That is where and referencing to Congress of the United States that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or "PROHIBITING" the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

If you’re going to believe and to push the term “The Separation of Church and State”, THAT “BS” STOPS HERE!

Welcome to America!
Don't like it?
Then go back to were ever your roots came from!

What was that?

O' I remember now!

Your Village called and they said they don't want there idiot back!

Sorry, just had to toss that in there for a good chuckle, even if it's probably true!

+11 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

To Mike Diehl: Thanks for the comment. I am all for coming out on top in both wars, but the fact is that we could print verses from the Koran on our scopes and it would not make one iota of difference to the people we are fighting. Our mere existence is offensive to them.

Censoring Trijicon is extreme, 100-proof, chickens**t political correctness. It has probably cost the people at Trijicon a lot of pain. They meant no harm; they were simply trying to do a little good in the world according to their lights.

The invoking of God is almost universal among armies, and goes back ten centuries or more. It has not seemed to have won any battles, just as this prime example of chickens**t political correctness will make no difference to the outcome of our two current wars.

+13 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Red Skelton said it best!

http://www.poofcat.com/july.html

I

me, an individual, a committee of one.

Pledge

dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self pity.

Allegiance

my love and my devotion.

To the flag

our standard, Old Glory, a symbol of freedom. Wherever

she waves, there's respect because your loyalty has given

her a dignity that shouts freedom is everybody's job!

United

that means that we have all come together.

States

individual communities that have united into 48 great states.

Forty-eight individual communities with pride and dignity and

purpose; all divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to

a common purpose, and that's love for country.

And to the republic

a state in which sovereign power is

invested in representatives chosen by the

people to govern. And government is the people

and it's from the people to the leaders, not from

the leaders to the people.

For which it stands, one nation

one nation, meaning "so

blessed by God"

Indivisible

incapable of being divided.

With liberty

which is freedom -- the right of power to live one's

own life without threats, fear or some sort of

retaliation.

And Justice

the principle or quality of dealing fairly with others.

For all

which means, boys and girls, it's as much your

country as it is mine.

***~~**~~***

Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country

and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance...

UNDER GOD

Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said

that is a prayer

and that would be eliminated from schools too?

God Bless America!

+9 Good Comment? | | Report
from MLH wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Aren't those letters and numbers part of the serial/model numbers?

Just wait until they figure out that there are subtle symbols embedded in the shapes and textures of the actual products themselves ... from makers other than Trijicon.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Wasn't "front toward enemy" from the bible?

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from MLH wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

If it is not obvious, I am just invoking a bit of sarcastic paranoia. Don't go looking. Like in the search for the witches in Salem, one finds what one's looking for.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

davidpetzal

For those who have studied for example, George Washington will take issue with you whether or not invoking God into Battles has or hasn't won any battles.

I find the life of George Washington quite intriguing!

+7 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

O'by the way Dave!

Thanks for stirring the pot again!!

Good for the cardiovascular system! LOL!!

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Boy, you never see Mike diehel anywhere accept for when something comes up against christians and he is almost always for it. Let me tell you something Diehl separation of Church and state was only put in place to prevent a state run church and yes America was founded on Biblical princaples. Don't even try and pass off that hogwash, it is a bald faced lie that the far left has been teaching in government schools for decades.

+10 Good Comment? | | Report
from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

By the way the phrase " praise the Lord and pass the ammo" came from the attack on Pearl Harbor December 7th 1941 7:05 am. When the japs came flying in there was a church service being conducted on the beach. The Chaplain grabbed a machine gun from a nearby nest and mounted it on his pulpit. He then started shooting down Japanese zeros and generally doing what Americans are known for doing. In the darkest hour and gravest danger Americans do what is necessary.

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from Bob81 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

David Petzel,

Mike had it exactly right. In response to your claim: "but the fact is that we could print verses from the Koran on our scopes and it would not make one iota of difference to the people we are fighting. Our mere existence is offensive to them."

This isn't an issue of not offending the terrorists; it's more about all the rest of the citizens of the countries we are currently occupying. We have been trying to convince them for the last 8 years this is a war about US security and not a war on Islam. Putting bible quotes on guns makes that claim sound like a load of horse-poo.

In response to everybody whining about "the US government restricting

Censoring Trijicon is extreme, 100-proof, chickens**t political correctness. It has probably cost the people at Trijicon a lot of pain. They meant no harm; they were simply trying to do a little good in the world according to their lights.

The invoking of God is almost universal among armies, and goes back ten centuries or more. It has not seemed to have won any battles, just as this prime example of chickens**t political correctness will make no difference to the outcome of our two current wars.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Bob81 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Lol! Wow, that post got royally screwed up. My apologies. Ignore the second half.

-2 Good Comment? | | Report
from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

political correctness can most certainly ruin the outcome of a war if the government keeps putting more and more regulations on how a soldier must fight, when, where and how he can kill the enemy. I say let the soldiers do what they have to do to win the bloody war, war is hell not a competition to see who has the nicest army.

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from 86Ram wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Waht a disservice to an Faith based American Company and Family. This Family and Company supports the Military and this Nation by providing some of the best optics they can so that our Warfighters can tactically and technically engage and defeat an enemy that not only fights our military but constantly tries to anthreatens to harm our citizens within the US borders and overseas, and yet this is how the liberall, politically correct morons thank them.

I'm glad I'm politically UNcorrect. I support this company & am glad they chose to put a scripture on their optics for family tradition, strong faith and devotion as well as maybe an inspiration to a Member of our Military that may need it when stuff hits the fan. God Bless tem.

The Military had they saw this as a problem could've ordered the optics to a milspec without the scripture.

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Focus front it looks to me like your wetting your panties, not soldiers.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I willounded say this, I saw many "athiests" who all of a sudden Found dA Lawd when they thought they were gonna die within minutes!

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Meant However in first post %$#&in lap top keeps skipping

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from 86Ram wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I don't typically reapeat myself but this needs to be re stated IMHO it is from a similar post(same subject) in message boards:

It’s something blown out of proprtion by the liberal media and people that overreact to anything that is not politically correct.
We can't talk about the bible, civil war or even talk about muslim extremism, guantanamo bay or illegal immigrants in the US without someones panties gettin tied in a bunch.
You can't even talk about 9-11 and how fast it's footage was taken off the air for fear of reprisals and hatred generated towards the muslims.
However the TSA can put US Soldiers on an extremist watch list and Reliions other than the muslim religion can be put down and dragged thru the mud.
Coddling the enemy that wants to kill you does not make it your friend. It's like paying a bully not to beat you up.
The political correctness, the high morality I'm better than you arrogance is an eye sore and a blight on this country.
We did not win 2 World Wars / Saving France, Britain, Russia, China (Flying Tigers, the Hump, Burma)by being politically correct. We did not get our independance from tyrants being politically correct.
We did not win the Cold War being Politically correct.
We did not build this nations industry and agriculture and economy by being politically correct.
That is why we are FREE NATION and not subjects to a crown or a territory of another country.
Now that we have softened, Now that we're so worried about what everyone else thinks who knows what lies in store.

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from SAND BAGGER wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

WOW! THE MOTHER OF BUCKET OF WORMS HAS BEEN TURNED OVER!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Anyone remember this one

“When tyranny hits the fan and the 'Firearms Control Section Gestapo' stops by to confiscate your firearms, do the right thing...give'em the ammunition first.”

-the Tucson (Arizona) Rifle Club newsletter, 1999-Sep

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from ejunk wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

hear-hear to diehl and herring. enough with the proselytizing.

yrs-
Evan!

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from hengst wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

86ram good stuff

Mr. Cooper, Mr Petzal and WA Mtn and Moishe You grumpy old men are great Americans and your views are proof of this thanks for saying it....Sorry if i missed any of the other grumpy old men that are great Americans...

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I wish I had a penny for every person this year alone who got duped into believing what's on TV, Rags and what some person said about this Nation believing it was true!

Wana have some fun!

Chalenge a Liberal to prove their point, flat out hold them to the subject. They will try their best to shift the subject, ignore the facts and when those two fail, they go into name calling and watch them do a melt down is great!!!

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

HEY hengst

I wonder if they would make a movie called

GRUMPY OL"GUN NUTZ!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

“America is at that awkward stage; it's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.”
-Claire Wolfe, 1995-Nov

“This country is a one-party country. Half of it is called Republican and half is called Democrat. It doesn't make any difference. All the really good ideas belong to the Libertarians.”
-Hugh Downs, 1997 (not really true, but the point is worth hearing)

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

They oughta make a movie about gumpy ol gun nunutz that for sure.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Speakin of Grumpy ol' Gun Nutz

Drafting Guys over 60----this is funny & obviously written by a Former Soldier-

New Direction for any war: Send Service Vets over 60!

I am over 60 and the Armed Forces thinks I'm too old to track down terrorists. You can't be older than 42 to join the military. They've got the whole thing ass-backwards. Instead of sending 18-year olds off to fight, they ought to take us old guys. You shouldn't be able to join a military unit until you're at least 35.

For starters: Researchers say 18-year-olds think about sex every 10 seconds. Old guys only think about sex a couple of times a day, leaving us more than 28,000 additional seconds per day to concentrate on the enemy.

Young guys haven't lived long enough to be cranky, and a cranky soldier is a dangerous soldier. 'My back hurts! I can't sleep. I'm tired and hungry.' We are impatient and maybe letting us kill some asshole that desperately deserves it will make us feel better and shut us up for a while.

An 18-year-old doesn't even like to get up before 10 a.m. Old guys always get up early to pee so what the hell. Besides, like I said, 'I'm tired and can't sleep,' and since I'm already up, I may as well be up killing some fanatical s-of-a-b....

If captured we couldn't spill the beans because we'd forget where we put them. In fact, name, rank, and serial number would be a real brainteaser.

Boot camp would be easier for old guys. We're used to getting screamed and yelled at and we're used to soft food. We've also developed an appreciation for guns. We've been using them for years as an excuse to get out of the house, away from the screaming and yelling.

They could lighten up on the obstacle course however. I've been in combat and didn't see a single 20-foot wall with rope hanging over the side, nor did I ever do any push ups after completing basic training.

Actually, the running part is kind of a waste of energy, too. I've
never seen anyone outrun a bullet.

An 18-year-old has the whole world ahead of him. He's still learning to shave, to start up a conversation with a pretty girl. He still hasn't figured out that a baseball cap has a brim to shade his eyes, not the back of his head.

These are all great reasons to keep our kids at home to learn a little more about life before sending them off into harm's way.

Let us old guys track down those dirty rotten coward terrorists. The last thing an enemy would want to see is a couple of million pissed off old farts with attitudes and automatic weapons who know that their best years are already behind them.

(How about recruiting women over 50 with PMS??? You think men have attitudes...ohhhhhhhhhhhh my God!!! If nothing else, put us on border patrol....we will have it secured the first night.)

Share this with your senior friends. It's purposely in big type so
they can read it.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Dave, I read Sunday that the Marines were going to approach Trijicon about the removal of the "Pass the ammunition" printed on their scopes, BS. I can't believe they caved.
Mike Diehl, did you ever hear of 'Esprit De Corp'? I went in service in '71 and I needed all American and CHRISTIAN support I could get. If there is a Muslim in our military who doesn't like it, tough. Oh yea there was one recently and by coddling him look what it got us.
Sorry Mike, I'm not a high minded intellect just a blue collar grunt who knows our boys in the military needs every advantage they can get psychological though it may be. JMO

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from hengst wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Mr Cooper ..the only problem with a movie would be finding a director that isn't a liberal otherwise I shudder to think what you guys would do to him

Moishe..now thats good stuff...

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I know where I'm getting my next scope!
AKX

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Clay;
There's 50 states now, keep up with your current events!

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from RichardF wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Truely it doesn't have any place on a scope that a non christian is carring. I for one am all for it but lets not disrespect the killers out there who wish to not carry it, it takes a lot to do what they do already.

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from IowaGuy wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

If you wish to live in a nation where religion and government are intertwined Iran is an option,, or perhaps feudal Europe, say 1300.

I imagine a lot of people who say that religion in government is a good idea would also be the first to scream if President Obama did turn out to be a believer in Islam....

You want religion in/part of government provided it is YOUR religion.

As far as this Nation founding as a Christian Nation; sorry guys read/know your history. Yes many founding fathers where Christians, many also questioned their religion and/or where non-believers. The founding fathers that wrote that formed this Nation lived in a time when States has official religions and religious oaths, church attendance, etc where often part of the civil government and a requirement for public office. They knew the danger and problems this caused first hand and specifically wrote in the separation of church and state in the 1st amendment.

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from Carney wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Atheism is a worldview. Secular humanism is a religion. Our culture wasn't founded so solidly on either of these inadequate, teetering, crumbling pillars.

"Political correctness" is not about resisting an intertwined "church" and State. It is about a cultural revolution and rejection of history and good ideas. The thought police have captured the legislatures, the courts and the executive offices making the freedoms that our forefathers secured and our fathers protected a thing of the past.

Trijicon is the best at what they do. Perhaps it was the Biblical business principles and overt honoring of the God of the universe that secured such blessing for them. Even if they deny the faith of the company's founder, the blessing will continue for a while -- but not forever. It would be wise for our nation to recognize the same reality.

If I was CEO, I'd be focusing R&D on micro stamping!

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

IowaGuy - for someone who claims to know US history, you should know that "separation of church and state" is nowhere in the first amendment...or in the Constitution at all. That phrase was first coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to a Baptist church over 9 years after the Constitution was written.

Plus, right after they passed the Constitution, the US Government also passed the Northwest Ordinance of 1787, which spoke out in favor of education for the "spread of Christianity". The US Government, whom you claimed was in favor of separation between church and state, passed a bill that spoke out explicitly in favor of Christianity. They also let churches use Federal buildings to hold services, and they used Federal funds on numerous occasions to print Bibles for distribution. They were in favor of religion, just not an official US denomination (i.e. proclaiming that the US is officially a Methodist nation). Get your facts straight.

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from Shaky wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I was fortunate enough to have a crusty old Army drill Sgt. as my mentor/trainer when I became interested in shooting. He could throw the most energetic screaming fits and use the most insulting language of anyone I have ever known or even heard of. He was a WW11 vet, I mean a down in the trenches, mod. 12 with 00 buck vet. What I am saying here, is this man saw action up close and very personal, and had the ribbons and scars to prove it.
Once, we were camping and a plane came over quite low and woke both of us up. I sat up in my sleeping bag and he grabbed me and threw me down, covered me with my sleeping bag and laid down on top of the bag. All the time screaming total nonsense about being bombed. Well, we were both wide awake in a very short time, and he was embarassed by the flashback, and wanted to talk a bit. The one thing that I will always remember that he said in yhe next hour was "sonny this is fact;there are no atheists in a foxhole, when death comes aknocking ALL men call on The Almighty because reason tells them they are about to meet Him face to face and they don"t want to be a stranger".
My favorite pastor said many years ago "Don't tell me how the man lived. I'd rather know how he died,because that's how he will face eternity".
Just a thought.

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from jamesti wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

shaky, good call on that one. dukkillr, for a guy with that name, you're pretty frickin smart! a +1 on that one. you know, we all won't agree on everything here but what you can count on is conviction from all of us in our beliefs. if the antis read half of the stuff posted on just this post, they will know they are dealing with some pretty intellegent people and probably get scared. if we can just dispense with insults and agree to disagree, all will be good. you guys made me realize how little i know by some of what you wrote. in the end, we are all on the same side and have a right to our beliefs. great post dave, way to start things. we count on you for that. you da man! that being said, IMHO, if you don't like what's on your scope, no matter how great it works, build your own f***ing scope! make mine a trijicon!

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from elmer f. wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

well, i for one am saddened by this. freaking government trying to stamp out all traces of religion anyway. what they really want is for us to worship THEM! this is just another step in a long line of things that they are doing in order to take away ALLL of our freedoms! our forefathers were quite religious, and believed in GOD, and thrir beliefs are part of this countries heratage. these elected officials that we have nowdays have caved to almost every little whim that the very few whine about. i would bet that if you asked the solgers that are in harms way, those words have been quite comforting from time to time. especially when about to kick in a door of a house that they know holds alkida or taliban fighters. our "tinkerbell fairy leaders" might just as well and cave in and make learning spanish, chineese, and japaneese as a mandatory requirement for graduation from school. because it wont be all that long before one of them will decide that america is weak enough for them to take us. if only someone with a set of kahuna's would actually run for office, that really did not give a damn about political correctness, to help guide this country back to its former glory. we as a nation, now, are in a pitful state. it is not because of us local people, it is our butt kissing fairies in washington. personally, i subscribe to the "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead" way of thinking. part of what kept us safe as a nation all these years was the fear everyone felt from our militay might and presence. the weak link to this is now in washington.

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from Douglas wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I am going to buy a trijicon scope as soon as I have to $$. Just because.
Amen

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I'm still waiting anxiously for someone to show me where the term "separation of church and state" can be found in the U.S. Constitution...any help out there?

I understand it appears once in a letter T. Jefferson wrote but so far, to my knowledge, no one has found it in our constitution.

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Mr. Diehl is correct regarding the constitution containing but one reference to God.

What he fails to mention is the reference to "their Creator" several times in the "Unanimous declaration of the thirteen united states of America".

I'll bet y'all thought the document was "The declaration of independence". Go check.

Now, instead of the terribly politically incorrect B.C. and A.D. we have the politically correct B.C.E. and C.E. I feel better already.

Soon to come from this administration - men/women/boys/girls/trans gender public bathrooms...then all will be well.

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from hmcidc99 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I was a Hospitalcorpsman (Doc) with the marines and part of our Combat issue was a Red Cross we were supposed to wear on our upper left arm in a combat situation. We called it a target and promptly threw them away. My point being is that I saw the the scopes and the numbers and letters are a lot harder to see. I have to disagree with statements made that it is the presidents fault. Let's not forget the good old ACLU weenies.

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from Zermoid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

The whole thing is BULL.
If you were to hand me a FREE weapon, FREE Optics, and FREE Ammo to use as long as needed I wouldn't give a Rat's A$$ if it had "I blew Osama Bin Laden" written on it!
If it bothers you so friggin' badly cover it up with some paint or duct tape and quite whinning over it. Or better yet git off your lazy azz and go buy your own, non marked brand of sight.

Until then SHUT UP!

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

To Hal Herring:

"For us to ask our Muslim allies- and we do have them, and we can't win it without them- to shoot other Muslims, on our orders, with rifle sights inscribed with verses from the Christian Bible?"

Please tell all of us who exactly are these Muslim "allies" and why they are Muslim religous states.

Perhaps you would do well to read both the Quran and the Hadith before telling anyone anything about Islam and Muslims.

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from SL wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I just love it when some of you say that if one doesn't like the christian values this country was founded on then they should get out. I am sure that the ancestors of these christian people had absolutely NO respect for any traditions of the natives that were here before them either. At least the current crop of people whose values you despise don't go around raping and murdering like you good old christians did when you took over. What goes around, usually comes around.

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from Zermoid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

dukkillr,
From what I've read and heard the original intent was to keep the state from Promoting any one religion, or persecuting anyone for their religious beliefs, not to make govt devoid of religion as now seems to be being done.

As I've said before, any country who would turn their backs on God, what do they expect in return from God?

Might explain alot of the nation's problems and downward slide of the last several decades.

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from Ferber wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

We understand how, perhaps, a handful of American soldiers might object to obscure-appearing biblical references on a secondary piece of equipment. But really, do we have to yield to the Muslum Public Affairs Councel pressuring our field commanders? Who is really in charge of this--and all political correctness, for that matter. Mainly leftist politicians of course, with a lot of help from the ACLU. Four or five years ago I was sitting with the press during a local boxing program. When our National Antham preceded the action in the ring, everyone, of course, rose, right hand over the heart; some veterans saluted. But a pair of muslum men remained sitting...and talking, throughout. While no one objected with words or physical force in Asbury Park's Convention Hall that night, just a few decades ago that scene wouldn't have even been a part of the landscape. I mentioned it in my newspaper column...and, as I had expected, got nary a word of negative mail for it. Effective grass roots response/reaction to such lousy un-American, rude stuff is usually nil. Usually. We just swallow and let it pass. Usually. How magnificent the effective grass roots response to the crazy health care bill!

Political correctness disturbs us big-time. Last week I saw a colored guy lay in to a fat traffic cop who had balked at a cripple helping a blind guy across the street--who was aiming to visit a relative in the nearby looney bin--when the yellow caution light came on. An Oriental woman intervened and tongue-lashed the fatso cop for his bad judgement. (Well, maybe, that's a little much).

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from iowaboy wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Wow, I just got yesterday's blog and, as of this moment, there are 91 comments. Seems like a hot topic since some days blogs only garner 10 or 15 comments. Looks like Trijicon struck a nerve with their stampings. Here's my problem with the whole thing: aren't there more important issues in the world than stampings on a telescopic sight? For all we know, since Trijicon is owned by a devout Christian, they use those numbers as an index for production and inventory control in their manufacturing process. I would be much more concerned if their scopes scattered shots all over the landscape because they were incapable of holding a zero or their light gathering. To paraphrase the immortal John Wayne - this ain't a big deal Pilgrim.

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from Bella wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Focusfront, I have yet to meet a single atheist missionary.
All of you, the word "God" in english is generic and doesn't specificly refer to christianity. Still one of Yeshua's teachings was "thou shalt not kill", it is kinda off message to put Christian texts on killing tools. Tricon should have known better than to put religious inscriptions on materiel for government contracts. Still it should be easy enough to obscure with a sticker or something for the sensitive. In my experience Soldiers would much rather have half naked ladies on their gear than bible verses. As I dislike muscular christian fundimentalism myself, I thank you for the warning Dave, and I will not purchase optics from those people. Weaver and Lyman make good enough scopes for me.

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from JCB wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

If they had written "Allah Akbar" and radical Islamic verses on the side of the scope they would have gotten a promtion and sent to Ft. Hood.

This PC stuff makes me sick. No one has any guts any more to tell the ninnys were to go.

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

SL:

Why is it necessary to say "Christian" when referring to the values this country was founded upon? This country of ours has many outstanding values and if you sincerely disagree with those values, freedom of movement and speech for instance, then why come here or why stay?

To be a Christian (Capitalized please) doesn't mean putting up a Christmas tree. In outward form it means attempting to live as Christ directed. If they were "raping and murdering" then the people you refer to were simply not Christians.

Attending a congregation of a Christian denomination doesn't make anyone a Christian either. Nor does engraving a particular faith on a dog tag or on a telescopic sight for that matter.

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from hmcidc99 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Sometimes it takes a while for me to get my thoughts together. I was sent on an observer mission to provide medical support for the team I was on. We were unarmed, everyone else had a weapon and took great joy in pointing them at us, firing on our armored vehicles etc. One member of the team was the calmest and didn't drink every night. Many of that team now has problems with PTSD. The Capt. who stayed calm and is as normal as anyone can be who has been threw that Prayed not only for himself but for others. Spirituality is a great thing. Anytime I treated a patient whether it be in sick call, a training accident or a real SHTF incident I would pause and ask for help. The people we try to help ANYWHERE don't want our help and always revert to how it was before we got there unless we keep an occupying force there putting our young men and women in harms way where they will continue to reach for a higher power to keep their sanity.

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from alabamaoutlaw wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Trijicon is a great product and has saved the lives of a lot of soldiers.It has been incorporated into this rifle platform with great success.The Inventor had religious beliefs that he incorporated into the scope.Which has offered comfort to a lot of american soldiers who were actually in the valley of the shadow of death and feared it.So anything that would assist them in these times is alright by me.If it was me i would be like Black Jack Persing and bring in the swine.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from SL wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Kudukid, whether our values are christian or something other, can you see a bit of hypocrisy in what you guys are saying? You profess these great values we have, yet you can't see how we displaced the people who were here before us. What did we do with their freedoms so that you can have yours? Yeah, we talk a good story in this country but the truth is really not so nice. Sure, I also share in the fruits here in this country, but it's not like I don't often stop and think about the hypocrisy in what we profess.

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from blueridge wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Dave,

Thanks for the post. In all the words, one thing is certain among our shooters...we all like a good campfire discussion. And, we all have values...not necessarily the same ones, but values.

I stand with the Good Book...and the Constitution, though they are not the same. I surely respect the other person's right to disagree with me, but I lean more to the tolerant view about Trijicon and free speech. And, Jefferson's remark about the wall of separation has been nudged into law, gradually, by the same supreme court that now justifies limitless lobbying by the wealthy, vested interests.

Nothing stays the same...everyone must stay vigiglent and informed, and try to maintain zero. I love this blog. We are richer, for it.

Blue

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from blueridge wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Okay, I misspelled vigilent. Sue me.

Blue

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from blueridge wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Vigilant. There.

meaning on watch...avoiding danger.

Blue

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from WhitetailHunter706 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

(The Bomb)Political Correctness. The hell with the people who have a problem with freedom of religion, and freedom of speech. Read the first ammendment. Its a private company they have the right to say anything they want on their scopes. And another thing it isnt millitary service men complaining... as the old saying goes "there are no atheists in fox holes". well there you go and a +1 to everyone that agrees

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from willkillsdeer wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

what a load of B.S all i can say is i all the sudden want a trijicon and i don't suppose "One nation UNDER GOD" would mean any thing of significance?

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from willkillsdeer wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

what a load of B.S all i can say is i all the sudden want a trijicon and i don't suppose "One nation UNDER GOD" would mean any thing of significance?

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from nc30-06 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Focus, I for one don't see why you got down votes.
In the "more bs from Bella" column,I agree with you that "God" can refer to anyone's "God". As for the comment about "though shall not kill", you are dead wrong. That means you should not kill for greed, lust, money (greed), etc. It does not mean you should not kill in a war where you are defending your country, or a person, or (in the military at least) property. The first example, refers to murder. The second refers to defense, period. Yeah, there might be some who, in the military have the metality that they get to "kill" and get a thrill from it. They are sick and belong in the first group.
Lastly, Trijicon is one excellent scope. I only wish I could afford one or two. They have every right to imprint what they want to on them. Buyers have every right not to buy them. Political correctness be damned.

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

SL:

I am unaware I fit in with a group called "you guys". I spoke on my behalf alone.

I would appreciate it if, when directing discourse at me, you refer to what I said instead of what some obscure "you guys" have said.

I'm well aware of the history of the United States with regard to the people who had migrated here before the Europeans. It is a shameful part of our history exacting a price on the national psyche to this day.

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from LutherMartin1517 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

And I didn't even know the Taliban could read!

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from Bubba Squirrel wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Dave, you failed to mention one of the most amazing (IMHO) aspects of this comedy. When the big discovery was made and the news broke, all the media reports said the Bible verse designations on the sights were "coded references." How nefarious!

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from firedog11 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Well I watched the news that led to this and it was all contrived by the pro islamic major media, which can never miss a chance to stir up the enemy and make us look bad. When I watched the news report there was not a single! active American serviceperson who complained. It was all anti war or anti American groups who raised the issue. The real intent was not to get the inscripitions removed , it was to force the military to take all those scopes out of service and cripple the ability of our troops to fight.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"it's the one who claims to have no faith that will be the first to pray when the sh*t hits the fan!"

That is incorrect. There are plenty of atheists in foxholes. They're the ones engaging the enemy while everyone else is praying for deliverance.

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from waterdrinker9 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Political corectness takes the fun out of everything.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Didn't have time to read em all.
and for the record.
I'm a concervative Dem. who voted for Obamma because I was scared sh!tless to vote for the other guy and the Hockey Mom and I don't give one flying F who knows that,. accordingly I am not quite but almostly sideways politically with many on this Blog .
And I dont give a flying F about that either.
I do however like guns and generally(with certain exceptions and you knwo who yiou are )
I like people who like guns.

However ,.as stated in some cirlcles Im aquaintd with
" putting the shoulder" to Trijicon or how ever the hell you spell it rubs me the wrong G D way .
So as far as Im concerened ( my two sence ) the following ( or wordd to this effect ) should be enscribed on all small arms and and relatd equipment.

To WITT :

"If you have my weapon you must be the enemy and I must be dead. Because for damn sure If I had my weapon you would be dead.
However since you do have it assuming you are the enemy ,. you can kiss my a$$ and burn in eternal hell.
More of me will be around shortly,
And may the Angels who accoompany our soldiers into battle help them to protect our geat land.
And rain down death and destructuion upon her enemys.
vanquishing them to the mists of time for ever.
God Bless America you d!rty B@stards.

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from smokey0347 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I have to go along with Clay Cooper. You chose this country, we didn't choose you. This is America. Speak English or go home!! This 'Dial 1 for English is BS. Read the Laws for immigration. It says you MUST learn to speak English prior to becoming a citizen.
As for Trijicon, I am truly bummed out that our 'so called' Commander in Chief doesn't believe in our own Constitution and the separation of Church and State. But, then again, what can you expect from a 'wanna-be Christian'? (Read that as Muslim or any way you feel)

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"Censoring Trijicon is extreme, 100-proof, chickens**t political correctness."

It would be, I think, if someone were demanding that Trijicon not put verses on any sights they sell, civilian or otherwise. The argument's deep. But with respect, sir, we can't afford now to think like we did through Viet Nam, that force projection is the only part of the battlefield. In the information age, propaganda is an even more important part of the battlefield than it used to be. Avoiding handing people OBVIOUS propaganda victories seems to me to be less about chickens**t and more about good basic maintenance. It should be pretty obvious that since the enemy wants to make the whole thing "A War Against A Religion" that planting your religion all over your weapons of war that are used against people who near universally are adherents to a different faith is not such a brilliant idea.

There's plenty of chickencrap that the Fed Govt does, that leftists do, and yes that rightwingers do too. But this instance doesn't seem like it to me. And would evangelicals be so quick tocry "political correctness" if the quotations were verses from the Koran, or from the Talmud, or one of the Veddas? I doubt it.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"What he fails to mention is the reference to "their Creator" several times in the "Unanimous declaration of the thirteen united states of America"."

I did not fail to mention it. It would only be a failure if it matted, which it does not. The Declaration of Independence has no bearing on the US Constitution. Neither do the various states articles of secession in 1861. No one claimed there weren't christians at the Constitutional Congress. There were. They debated whether or not to include explicit references to biblical texts. The proselytizing hardliners lost the debate and for good reason.

As for the wall of separation. Everyone knows it's an inference made by Thomas Jefferson. The point being that if you don't protect the government from the excesses of any particular faith, then government WILL be subverted to promote a single faith to the detriment and eventually loss of civil liberties of members of other faiths. When the Constitutional Congress met, one of the examples from history that they (and any learned person today) can consider was the example of Elizabethan England. Roman Catholicism is a Christian Faith. Lutherism is a Christian Faith. And the Episcopal Church is a Christian Faith. But England only had room for one of those faiths.

When government starts adopting one of them, people in the other faiths get screwed. THAT is why Jefferson's words concerning a wall of separation speak accurately to the intent of the Constitutional Congress, and why anyone with a brain recognizes that such a wall, indeed also a gulf, a moat, a bastion, and a minefield of separation, are the goals of true American patriots.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Looks like F&S has been targeted by a Spambot.

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

BTW for all concerned:

Since this issue stemmed from the idea of Bible verses offending Muslims (on Trijicon scopes), I give you the following showing that Muslims offended by Bible verses don't even know their own Quran...

The Quran praises both Mary and Jesus and the New Testament. How then are Bible verses on telescope sights offensive to any Muslims?

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from SL wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

You all have converted me, God Bless America!! Only in America can we have the christian crowd arguing how this nation should be more christian and God fearing on the same webpage with a photo gallery of booth babes down at the bottom. America at its finest and weirdest all on the same page! Who I consider the finest or weirdest I won't elaborate on.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Hey thats' great Kudukid. I'm sure that just saying so means that Bin Targeted will simply stop trying to claim that this is a war between two different faiths. No? OK, maybe we just need to crank out a few thousand S2s to "explain" to all the Islamists why it is that printing NT verses on our hardware doesn't mean what the Islamist agitprop guys say it means.

Or we could stop handing the enemy political ammunition. Hmmm. Which is the effective strategy? Keep putting those bible verses out there and then engage in a costly information campaign to undo the potential political damage or not put the verses on there in the first place. I know how I'd want MY money spent....

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from Edward J. Palumbo wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

In our government's efforts to suppress all religious references, to ingratiate itself with other cultures, to apologize for our "excesses" in war and peace, we are losing our national identity. We reject the moral compasses we embraced in the past and opt for a situational ethic, but we forget that the situation will change and our motives and justifications will have to change to remain current. In the span of a generation, we have witnessed a deterioration of the nationalism that propelled us through the sacrifices and challenges we met in the past. Doubt it? Look around you when the national anthem is played at sports events and observe what 40+ years of "political correctness" has done for us. In the effort to develop cultural maturity, we've seen the erosion of our commitment to the Judeo-Christian principles and commandments upon which our justice system was based. Arguably, we have the best justice system that money can buy and that is a great source of frustration to many law enforcement officers. We continue to strive for stability and what is best for the greatest number of people, while addressing the demands of every special interest group. Step by step, we've seen a compromise of a corporate commitment to quality in the pursuit of profit.
I served as a U.S. Marine in South Viet Nam in 1966-67 and I last wore the uniform as a reservist in 1986. You cannot convince me that the Marine Corps or Army is distressed by New Testament references on any product they carry into battle. This "distress" originates higher in the chain of command, and it is political, not military.
I love my country, but my government concerns me deeply.

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from finnyk wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

All I know is that the God I believe in is not only a forgiving God, but a just God. SO; I forgive every soldier who has used a Trijicon to dust off some Muslim, terrorist, radical,(insert any further adjective of your choice) enemy and justly say, "Keep up the good work!" If they want to brag about their 70 virgins, or whatever, and look so forward to meeting them - have at 'em. (I can't figure out why they would complain if that's where they are headed).
Also, if you go beyond the Constitution and read other papers and speeches upon which the founders negotiated the final version, you will see that our country is, indeed, founded upon Christian values and principles. I for one say that is why we still remain the greatest country on the planet, despite the current condition we find ourselves in because of the latest "American Idol" styled vote.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Political correctness is as it does. Adding "under god" to the pledge was, in the most literal sense, a political correctness test that occurred during the Eisenhower admin. Mostly at the behest of redbaiters, who laughably reasoned that all atheists must be communists and more laughably assumed that being an atheist meant that saying the word "god" out lout would either be impossible for an atheist or might cause one to spontaneously catch fire. So if you're AGAINST PC bullcrap, you'd probably favor removing "under god" from the pledge and restoring it to the original pledge as it was stated all throughout American history right through the end of the Korean war.

Probably the thing that most undermines national unity is the constant claim by evangelicals that the 10c and the NT are the basis of the US governance. It's a baloney, rightwingnut PC claim, and it's the kind of thing someone looking to dissolve the United States would love to have "etched in stone" so to speak.

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from SL wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"I love my country, but my government concerns me deeply." Can one love country, but not their government? Loving ones country also means loving it's people and we have always been a diverse people since we all originated from elsewhere. And our diverse populace just happened to elect the current government into office according to the laws of this land. Like it or not this is what we are stuck with for the time being. If the majority of people don't like the path we are taking, then they will elect a new government the next time out. My point is that if you don't like the government then you really don't like it's people who elected it and in the end really can't claim to love this country. Maybe some of you should then considering leaving it, like you suggest to others if you really don't like the way our system works???

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Mike Diehl:

Please read my comment and note: I wasn't making an argument for or against references to Bible verses on sights; I simply presented a question (read what I wrote).
I was trying to give you and the rest some insight as to what the Quran and Hadith actually say. This especially so since your ignorance of this religion appears to know no bounds.
In that vein I'll provide you with some more. The Quran also attests to the virgin birth of Jesus of Nazareth...that the Bible (entire) is from God...and that Jesus of Nazareth ascended into heaven. Shocking?

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Actually, Kudu, your claim to be more knowledgeable is almost as much of a joke as your claim to not have taken a position on the matter. And you're missing the point. It's not about "What the Koran says." It's about "What the enemy thinks they can convince people that America is trying to accomplish." Planting NT verses on your equipment in the CONTEXT of a war in which the enemy WILL make political use of the inscriptions to bolster THEIR claim that it is a war between religions is an obvious rookie mistake. It's such an obviously inflammatory thing to do in the political context of a war against Islamist extremists that no one with a clue who really gave the matter any thought would do it.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

That, after all, is why I made that crack about S2s. If we need to send a thousand "experts" like you to the region in order to explain to the Islamists (who are going to treat you like an unimportant source anyhow) that "No, when we put NT verses on our equipment we really weren't attacking your faith and here's why" -- then we've already lost that little debate to the extremists.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Hengst

Thanks for your compliment as a "grumpy old man". Yes, I am older than most on this blog because I am a survivor, grumpy because the liberal socialists are running amok in the country I served for 22.5 years, and a man because I have a pair to stand up and say/act on what I believe in.

Mike Diehl is correct in stating that we have lost the debate with the jihadists and extremists. We will not likely ever convince them otherwise!

For all you liberal socialist wankers out there, this finger is for you!

"You be careful out there" --HSB

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from JHawes wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I wouldn't want to be in an army were god wasn't on my side. Leave it up to the soldiers to decide if they want to scratch of the verses but I can bet that majority of them wouldn't. I can be almost certain that many of those soldiers overseas aren't just fighting for life and liberty.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

YUK YUK

Now Wa Mtn Hunter,..

Which finger might that be ?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

AlaskanExile

it's interesting how you skip thru a subject and shoot from the hip.

That was a direct quote from Red Skelton!

A -1 for you for failure to actually read and to understand what was actually said!

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"I wouldn't want to be in an army were god wasn't on my side."

I'd like to see someone name a war in which invoking the word of god made a difference on the battlefield. "Gott mit uns" on German helmets didn't help them in WW1, and on their belt buckles didn't help them in WW2. Maybe it helped Joan of Arc -- until it didn't.

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Mike Diehl:

It is patently obvious your knowledge of Islam is miniscule...a mistake not knowing your enemy thoroughly. The jihadists and terrorists all claim to be Muslims.

Secondly, I have not taken a position here on the matter (again - read what I have written)leaving you no better at mind-reading than Karnak the Magnificent.

Thirdly, there are no Bible verses inscribed on the Trijicon scopes in question. Please be accurate.

Fourthly, your sarcasm is of a low order. The problem with attempting to educate Muslims on their own religion is their high incidence of illiteracy, which is why they are easily swayed by the radicals among them. I never volunteered to try to educate them. I'd rather educate you...assuming, of course, you are literate.

Lastly: Who are the "extremists" among Muslims...the 19 who executed the Attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001 or the 30% - 40% of the world's Muslims who found satisfaction in watching newsreels of people (mostly Americans) jumping out of 100 story windows to avoid being burned to death? These are the same folks who took extreme umbrage in a cartoon of a man with missiles sticking out of his turban. I don't recall any riots over crucifixes immersed in urine. My question is, can such hot tempered people ever be appeased?

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from hal herring wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

kudukid,
Washington Post, today
U.S. military teams, intelligence deeply involved in aiding Yemen on strikes
U.S. military teams and intelligence agencies are deeply involved in secret joint operations with Yemeni troops who in the past six weeks have killed scores of people, among them six of 15 top leaders of a regional al-Qaeda affiliate, according to senior administration officials.
- By Dana Priest

Afghan Army
Various Afghan clan leaders fighting al-queda
Iraqi Army
Some Somalian clan leaders
Saudi Security forces
Some Paki army units fighting in the border regions

These folks are mostly Muslim. That is what I was referring to. Warfare is not the movie Shane, where a single man without allies cleans up the town and makes sure that good triumphs over evil.
thanks.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"It is patently obvious your knowledge of Islam is miniscule..."

It is patently obvious that your capacity to use logic and facts is miniscule. Look, dummy, since you missed it before I'll repeat it. It's not about what the Koran says, it's about what the Islamists can sell to their followers to motivate them. Having a liberal like yourself prating about the politically useful sections of the Koran means exactly DICK to an Islamist who might find out about having NT verses on American gear. He, and the people he's reaching, aren't going to care that some geek like yourself is busily explaining that it's all good because the Koran builds upon the preceding fauths. He's not inclined to debate with you. He's just going to take the information about NT verses on US gear and say to all the jihadi wannabes "See, the Americans are here to make you all into Christians." And they're gonna believe it because none of them are much interested in your opinion and because the material evidence on the ground is going to seem to support the radical Islamists' claim.

"The problem with attempting to educate Muslims on their own religion is their high incidence of illiteracy,"

Not that it has anything to do with the subject. But the other problem is that none of them are going to give a crap what YOU or I tell them to believe about the Koran. And they'll still know, because the facts are incontrovertible in support of it, that American gear seems to proselytize the Christian faith. That's all they'll WANT to know. Sometimes you have to understand people better than the head-up-the-axx-f-the-ivory-tower "gee if we just told them we're not waging a religious war they'll believe us because we might be able to find some bit of text in the Koran that would make a reasonable person engaged in scholarly discourse come around to our pov" life raft on which you're trapped.

Duh.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"I'd rather educate you...assuming, of course, you are literate."

I am literate and you aren't qualified to educate anyone on this matter. Your crack also proves how you still really don't get it, vis a vis the circumstances. Educating anyone in the west about how putting NT references on gear ISN'T an offense against Islam might be useful if you're arguing with someone *in the west* who thinks it's an offense against Islam.

But it won't accomplish anything for you with respect to the Jihadi who "*knows*" (to his own degree of certainty) that the US is in Ghanistan and Iraq in order "to destroy Islam and spread Christianity" just as his radical imam handlers tell him frequently. Getting a few PC types to stfu in America isn't going to mitigate the damage that simply KNOWING that American gear has that stuff on it will do by giving the enemy a propaganda victory.

Counterinsurgency is about winning hearts and minds. And putting references to the NT on gear DOESN'T win hearts and minds OVER THERE.

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Hal Herring:

Your last post is certainly rational, but I think somewhat simplistic. Yemen is a mixed bag at best with an ongoing civil war, Wahabi extremists, crushing poverty and almost total illiteracy. To say they are an ally is something of a stretch since it is just barely a country. At present, the government there is struggling to maintain control and will allow the U.S. to knock out some of their political foes. That some of their foes are also our foes is coincidental.

Afghanistan and its army is another mixed bag. They need to get paid to buy food.

The Iraqi Army is another mixed bag needing the jobs.

The same goes for the Somalis, Saudis and Pakistanis.

My idea of an ally goes a bit deeper than immediate political self-interests and perhaps this gets into the realm of semantics.

I believe most of the British Empire and the French resistance were allies in WWII.

I think the countries and the armies you mention are as much allies as the Arabs were in the Middle-East during WWI. Partly under Lawrence (of Arabia),if they hadn't gotten 200,000 pounds per month in gold sovereigns from the Brits they wouldn't have been there to assist kicking the Turks out - even though they hated Turkish domination. That isn't my idea of an ally. They were more like mercenaries fighting for what they should have been fighting for without the gold because it was in their own interests.

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Mike Diehl:

With persons such as yourself it always comes down to name-calling..."dummy", "geek", and the ultimate insult "liberal". If I'm liberal, Atilla was a pantywaist.

No point in discussing this with you any further as I'm sure you have many other unseemly names in your gentlemanly debating arsenal. You seem to think the stronger you rant and rave the better you make your point. Generally all this shows is an inability to express yourself coherently.

I suggest you learn something about Islam before trying to discuss related topics.

Hal Herring, on the other hand makes his points carefully, and even though we may disagree on the definition of ally, I get his point.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"With persons such as yourself it always comes down to name-calling..."dummy", "geek", and the ultimate insult "liberal". If I'm liberal, Atilla was a pantywaist."

You probably are a pantywaist. Yer sniveling about some harsh pushback, decrying the ad hominem, when you were in fact the first person to suggest that I'm ignorant of Islam and to question my literacy. Yer a wuss, when you come right to the point. And you still don't know enough about Islam to be lecturing anyone else about it if you think putting coded references to the NT on US gear doesn't play into either the Taliban or AQ hands, politically.

"No point in discussing this with you any further as I'm sure you have many other unseemly names in your gentlemanly debating arsenal."

I do. Unseemly they may be but they're accurate too. See, what you're still hiding from in this discussion is the fact that we're in a counterinsurgency over there. The enemy makes good use of any propaganda that might seem to imply that the US is engaged in a war against Islam. Whether or not YOU think the NT challenges Islam is immaterial. What matters is that most of the potential jihadi recruits will think it challenges Islam, and therefore they'll be inclined to join up to "resist the effort to replace Islam with Christianity" -- which is how the bad guys frame the whole conflict.

"You seem to think the stronger you rant and rave the better you make your point. Generally all this shows is an inability to express yourself coherently."

Heh. I must be prety coherent. You seemed to understand me clearly enough when I suggested you're too dumb to cut wood. As to what it proves, it proves that you eem unable to grasp why it is that referencing the NT on American gear doesn't help in a counterinsurgency against Islamists.

"I suggest you learn something about Islam before trying to discuss related topics."

You should take your own advice. If you think that printing NT on US gear won't offend any Moslems because in your clinical little world YOU think it SHOULDN'T offend any Moslems, you're wholly ignorant of the subject.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"INCOMING" !

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"INCOMING" !!!

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from Mr. Creosote wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Mike Diehl,

Are you sum kinda godless heathen? Or worse, a secular humanist?

I certainly hope so, because we're in desperate need of a few more on this blog. The demographic is definitely starting to skew dumbass...

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I'm some kind of pagan hyperrationalist. ;)

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

HEY WAM!

Looks like a BAR FIGHT BREWING!

My Great Great Grandfather had it right,

A Colt 6 shooter in one hand and a Bible in the other!

A Methodist Preacher and a Sheriff in Oklahoma many moons ago!

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Well Diehl, you finally said something that was true! Congradulations!

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from wingshooter54 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Wow, Dave; what a hornet's nest of rhetoric and opinions you have stirred up! Well, opinions are like a**holes; everybody has one. Here's mine - If I put my money and my sweat into a product and business and wanted to put an inscription on it (whether it was religious or not) I would damn well do so. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Evidently it is a well made product or the US military wouldn't use it. If they don't like the inscription,then cover it up, grind it off, paint over it, etc. since once they BUY it, it belongs to them. Trijicon is not owned by the US Govt. (not yet, anyway) Now, if all I cared about was profit and making tons of money, then a**kissing the govt. and being politically correct would take precedence over my personal convictions and beliefs. But, what do I know about business? I'm just an educator.
One can't help but wonder why no employee of Trijicon has complained to the prostitute national press about the inscriptions.
Maybe they are just good, hardworking Americans.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"Well Diehl, you finally said something that was true! Congradulations!"

Maybe one day you'll catch up.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"Evidently it is a well made product or the US military wouldn't use it."

Now THAT'S an example of optimism!

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

wingshooter54-
Very well said ,Sir. All I would add is: Amen!

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Well I got some more name calling...not surprised. I'll bet he has lots more. Brilliant. At least he finally grasped the difference between verses of scripture and location references which, BTW, aren't found in the earliest Bible texts.

For the rest of you coherent folks, what I'm trying to say is that appeasement in any form doesn't work with people who foam at the mouth over a cartoon.

From what I can surmise the extremists, and there are a great many, understand power and nothing else. When things don't go their way they sue for peace until strong enough to attack again. Israel has found this out time and time again. The Israelis are beginning to catch on. We're apparently very slow learners and I give you the Fort Hood debacle as evidence.

You can line up for appeasement; me, I'm getting more ammo!

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from robert.graham wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Why aren't you folks helping them appeal this blatant violation of thier constitutional rights to the supreme court. This clearly falls under the free exercise there of clause. Don't just whine about it.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

SO MUCH TO SAY....SO LITTLE TIME TO SAY IT!Here it goes;
Trijicon still makes a darn good sight, and our government is still Full of shi*.
No surprizes here.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"Well I got some more name calling..."

Stop yer whining. If you can't take it, you shouldn't start it. Anytime you want to grow up and talk like an adult I'm game. But until then I'll use the language you seem capable of understanding by talking to you in your own form of discourse.

"At least he finally grasped the difference between verses of scripture and location references which, BTW, aren't found in the earliest Bible texts."

Yer grasping at straws now, genius.

"For the rest of you coherent folks, what I'm trying to say is that appeasement in any form doesn't work with people who foam at the mouth over a cartoon."

Wow. You said so, so I guess everything the army has learned about COIN should be tossed out the door now.

What a moron!

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from burnettjv wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I was very thankful to have a Trijicon ACOG or (RCO) as it is referred to in the Marine Corps on my M16-A4 while I served in Fallujah, Iraq. I vaguely remember noticing the inscription on my RCO but never gave it a second thought. The fact that the government is willing to deprive our soldiers and Marines on the ground a vital and excellent piece of gear because someone just noticed that it happens to have an inscription on it is rediculous. I guarantee that 90% of people that are carrying them have never noticed the inscription in the first place. Its not like Trijicon recently decided to sneak the scripture on their products, they have been there from the very beginning. I know for a fact the Marines have been issuing them to infantrymen for at least 7 years now and the Army has probably had them longer than that, and suddenly its a problem. I say that if Marines or soldiers dont want to have the Trijicon on their rifle, then take it off and put your iron sights back on! Believe me the bad guys hate us no matter what! Tiny inscriptions are on our combat troops riflescopes are the least of their worries.

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

If anyone out there has something intelligent to say on this issue I'm ready and willing to debate it with you.

Since, in debate, insults only demean the one making them I'd rather not have anyone else demeaning themselves on a blog for firearms enthusiasts.

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from Gunslinger wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

The mfger should tell whom-evercame up with this brainey Idea to got to Hell that they will print what-ever the public wants and buys. I'm tired of some called Athitist teling me what I can and canot do or say or buy. If was in market for a scope, would buy one of these in AM.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Deihl, you have never been in a fox hole so don't pretend like you know jack about what you are talking about.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

A scant 2 years ago, men at our church took up a collection (not in church, but one to one) to buy one of our sons an ACOG or whatever they are called because he was headed to Iraq for his 3rd tour and the Corps did not provide those sights at the time. Money well spent since he is back safe and sound. The equipment we had in the last counterinsurgency op was crap in hindsight and the Marines always operated with gear 10 years behind the Army.

So if the inscription is not in the Mil Spec, it should not be there. However there is so much commerical off the shelf (COTS) stuff being procured these days, I'm sure that is the reason for the snafu. Take a deep breath and don't sweat the small stuff.

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Clay;
Just giving you a friendly elbow in the ribs, trying to get you riled. I knew that it was a quote. I guess it worked.
AKX

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

hey Diehl, go and watch this video and be ashamed of yourself. Here is a man who knows what he is talking about. Robert Howard received the Medal of Honor for actions done in Vietnam. If you don't like Christians don't watch it.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

AlaskanExile

About TIME! B)

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

How does that song go?

Where have all my Heroes gone!

We need another John Wayne and another Ronald Reagen in the White House!!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

“Everything I did in life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.”

-former U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren

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from jamesti wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

pray to who you want. pray for the destruction of a people, and you are a terrorist and deserve wrath.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I'm back! Anyway, Diehl, Thomas Jefferson wasn't even in the Constitutional Congress, he was an ambassador to France (I think it was France) at the time. When he wrote that letter, many delegates of the CC started screaming bloody murder (such as John Adams.)

The "God" that the Founders referred to was the Christian God, as is evident to anyone who examines some of their writings. When Benjamin Franklin proposed prayer before each session at the Constitutional Convention, he was proposing prayer to the Christian God, not any other God.

The Constitutional Convention was NEVER in favor of "separation of church and state". That phrase was coined by a non-Christian who was not even a delegate. FYI, Thomas Jefferson himself regretted ever using that phrase and essentially "took it back" in the later years of his life.

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from Bella wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Put naked ladies on one Tricon scope and bible verses on the other, see which sells better!
I still say most (male heterosexual) marines would pick the naked ladies.
Put human skulls on mine, like my Jeep.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Anyone with an "88" at the end of their internet handle can stick it where the sun doesn't shine, AFAIC.

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from JD wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Diehl, please give it a rest already, there are many bigger fish to fry. See the "state of the union" overall.
Lets not all get our undies in a bundle over this anymore, I think we pretty much beat it to death already.
Onward and upward guys!

can we please get back to talking guns??? Here, I'll start, what do y'all think of the 5.56 as our main battle caliber?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Did you listen to "The Anointed One Obama" and the 1st Amendment? Ripped into the Supreme Court and basically said, overseas entities can run ads and express an opinion in reelections. How farther than the truth can he get! Obama showed what kind of a blithering idiot he really is! And he flipped flopped on energy and it sounded like Governor Sarah Palin and GOD BLESS THAT WOMAN! was going to be his next energy Czar!

From Clays archives of bookmarks, places, information and things to read,

“And do not forget the petty scoundrels in this regime; note their names, so that none will go free! They should not find it possible, having had their part in these abominable crimes, at the last minute to rally to another flag and then act as if nothing had happened!”
-From the fourth leaflet of the White Rose Resistance in Germany, 1942. Five students and a professor who wrote and distributed the leaflets were executed in 1943.

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from njones wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

im pretty sure that our constitution also mentions the freedoms of religion and free speech. maybe im wrong. NOT!!! muslims can do anything they want and it be against the constitution to do anything to look at them wrong as they pull an AK-47 out of their turban. are we now communist country to limit what a business can put on their product? especially a country that was founded on the BIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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from nateshamp wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

When do we stand up and say enough is enough? If someone is offended by this inscription, it is their problem, not ours. So they get offended. Who cares? I am offended that it has to be removed. Obviously the opinions of the minority get more consideration than the majority. Our government needs to stand up and do what is right. We as voters need to clean house in our Government. Start from scratch. Get back to the principles that this country was founded on.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Clay Cooper-
Ask not what obummer says, observe what obummer does. His lies, last night, were too numerous to count, and his disconnect from We the People was obvious. He sounded like he was trying to deliver a bad college lecture.

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from square_peg wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

The scopes were counter productive to our efforts to gain local allies in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Proselytizing on privately owned and purchased firearms is fine. But when it endangers the men and women serving America overseas and prolongs their mission then we're better off without it.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

square_peg - how do you know that they were "counter productive to our efforts to gain local allies in Iraq and Afghanistan"? All the Muslims over there already know that we are a Christian nation, having Bible verses in the serial numbers on our scopes is not going to make much of a difference.

Plus, most Muslims respect the Christian Bible...and Biblical names. A GI with the name of Joseph or Abraham is going to get more respect from the locals than a GI with the name of George, for instance. The local Muslims are not anti-Bible, they respect it and they respect Jesus Christ (except they view him as a prophet instead of God).

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from square_peg wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

There is a feeling among many Muslims that westerners are in their countries as 'Crusaders'. There is a history of westerners coming to their lands bearing weapons covered with Christian symbolism.

Seeing Christian symbolism on the weapons of the current westerners in their countries can't help but re-ignite their passions against the original crusaders.

If our goal was to simply kill every man woman and child in those countries and take their resources for our own then it wouldn't matter how we went about it. But if our goal is create democracies which are friendly to the United States of America then we need to be a little more careful how we go about things.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

IT'S INTERESTING TO KNOW HOW INDIVIDUALS AND GROUPS WILL PICK OUT WORDS AND/OR PARAGRAPHS TO ETHER IGNORE OR USE SOLLY OUT OF CONTEXT TO FURTHER THEIR AGENDA AT ALL LEVELS!

LIFE IS NOT A BOX OF CHOCOLATE, GET THE WHOLE BOX OR NO BOX AT ALL!

STUPID IS WHAT STUPID DOES!

EVEN FOREST GUMP KNEW THAT!

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

square_peg - It seems to me that you are venturing into the realm of conjecture. Even if your assertions were true, however, then they might have a problem with weapons marked with crucifixes (for instance), but as a whole the Muslim population does not have an issue with the Bible. They regard the Bible as part of their culture and as one of the "holy books" that was written by one of Allah's prophets. Bible verses do not antagonize Muslims unless they are already lusting for our blood. This is basic, man.

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from tightliner09 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

thank god we have some sane thinkers up here.lol

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Wow and now everyone can see Diehl's true colors!

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from square_peg wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Dukkiller, I'm just going by what was reported in the Marine Corps Times.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2010/01/military_optics_012109w/

"Marine Corps officials said in a statement Tuesday they were “aware of the issue and concerned with how this may be perceived,” and said they planned to meet with Trijicon."

If the Marine Corps believes the scopes are detrimental to the mission then I'll accept that their concerns have some merit.

Semper Fi!

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

It's PR, pal. Why do you think they let Hassan continue to serve as a psychiatrist when he was clearly unable to do so? The Marine Corps has recognized that they are dependent upon the (often misguided) public opinion for their funding and support, which is why they let Muslim extremists shoot up military bases while at the same time going after a Christian-founded company for a minor manufacturing decision. It's not a military strategic decision, it's a PR strategic decision.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"Wow and now everyone can see Diehl's true colors!"

I've never hid my contempt for American neofascists, troll.

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from nc30-06 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Uh, duk, unless I missunderstand you, you seem to imply that Maj. Hasan was a Marine. He was not. He was in the Army.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

How about how immature and self serving, anti Christian you are. You are part of what is wrong with America, you hate christians, have a foul mouth, are way too liberal for your own good. Yes, you are anit Christian, if you deny it I will bring quotes directly from you to the for front.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

nc30-06 - I was referencing the US military as a whole. Sorry for the ambiguity.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

No one with the white supremecist movement's id tag - "88" - is in a position to say what's wrong with America.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

If by "white supremecist" you mean that I believe that we live in the greatest country on the planet than yes, you would be correct. If by "white supremecist" you mean that I believe that Americans are for the most part good Almighty God fearing, hard working productive members of society than yes, you would be correct. I am proud to say I believe that America is the greatest country on earth.

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from beerbear wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

First of all, my apologies to anyone who has lost a loved one in any earthly skirmish..I mean NO disrespect. Good people have been lost on both sides of every infraction. Here is my solution to the current quandary...allow enlisting men to choose inscription or none, but at the time (during enlistment) show them the percent of enlisted men returning home with inscription versus those that chose none. It would take a while, but no more time than ANY administration could fathom getting us out of there.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

rabbitpolice - right with you, man. Btw, Diehl, I'm a Hispanic so I don't exactly fit the white supremacist profile =D

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from square_peg wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Beerbear, officer's make the decisions about how to send soldiers to war. Enlisted men follow the orders of the officers. If you wish to make our armed forces a democracy then I would 'choose' not to go to battle with you. The lives of every other man around you depend on your actions. You and I will both be safer knowing that each of us will follow orders.
:penny: :penny:

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from alabamaoutlaw wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

The marking or religious symbols on their optics have nothing to do with the morals of our armed forces.These were placed by the inventor of the optics not the soldiers.If it gave the soldiers a little solice during times of turmoil i say give them more.Unless you have been in the situation that one wrong move could end your and everyone around you their life leave it alone.In a firefight the enemy has no idea what stamps are on my weapon.Just keep in mind that anyday we could be dragged into a draft type war and that weapon could be your lifeline.I can hear the c.o.'s right now I don't believe in this war.Heard it all before and the dodgers hiding while the valent stand strong.

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from nc30-06 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Amen alabamaoutlaw. The "more moral than you" liberal wimps who dodged the draft, are of the same cut of cloth as the "new" progressive, politically correct, gun-hating bunch. They cry and point fingers of guilt at those who defend their right to criticize and be asses.

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Diehl needs a good ol fashioned wall to wall counseling session with a crusty old NCO.

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from Bella wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Scratch the right too deep and you get white supremracists.
We fought a war about that once, and you can't convince me that right wing goals are consistant with democracy and equality. All the policies I have seen espoused by the right seem to all work to channel power into the hands of only a few. I am white and half a dozen other ancestries and I will not spite half of my ancestors to make political points today. I ain't happy with a lot O'bummer has done, but I am less happy with the efforts of the conservatives to thwart and spite him.
Wealth was redistributed in this country over the last two decades, it was distributed up and concentrated in the top 1% who now control most of the assetts in the nation. Nobody should be able to buy either justice or political office, we have juries and elections for that. Our system has been corrupted by corporate money and the recent decision by the supreme court will only make it worse. Corporations are not people, they cannot serve on juries, vote or hold public office. If this decision is not repudiated, our democracy is severely wounded.
Now I understand fully well that many of you right wingers out there would be just fine with the death of democracy, after all during the last few elections, it was conservatives who fought voter registration, intimidated voters and created "man in the middle" computer schemes to manipulate vote counts. But what will you get if you kill democracy? A dictator. Maybe you might not mind that (if He is White and "christian") if he tells you what you want and vamps on the people you don't like. But then why were you guys all for waxing Saddam then? Merely because he was brown and "socialist"? I hate Fascism in all it's forms, And I will resist the Right as long as I have means.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

square_peg - right with you as far as enlisted men go.
alabamaoutlaw - great point.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"If the Marine Corps believes the scopes are **detrimental to the mission** then I'll accept that their concerns have some merit."

Which, after all (emphasis added), is the core of the issue. +1 to you for keeping yer eye on what matters.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"Diehl needs a good ol fashioned wall to wall counseling session with a crusty old NCO."

NCO would be more inclined to hand you one of those than me. I'm not the one speakaing out for subverting the constitution.

Dukkillr: "88" is the white supremecist's self-ID tag. Look it up if you doubt me. The only decent thing about the "88" crowd is that they self-identify; there is almost certainly a cointel internet monitoring program that takes every bit of traffic posted by an "88" and drops it into a "to be reviewed" file.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Bella & Diehl-
You both display more and more of your ignorance with each post. Rabbit's 88 tag is a NASCAR thing, and has nothing to do with white supremacy. Take a Valium. Take several Valiums.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Oh great, Bella's back. POINT NUMBER 1: the US is a REPUBLIC, not a democracy. The Founding Fathers HATED democracy and referred to it as "mobocracy". They intended for us to have REPRESENTATIVES, i.e. the people into whose hands we vote legislative power.

The top 1% of the elite are liberals, ma'am, I have no idea where you get your facts from. Have you ever looked at a map of the electoral college? Almost everyone in the less-populated areas are conservatives - your liberals are restricted to the large, corrupt cities such as Chicago and Detroit and San Francisco. The liberals are the wealthy elite, not the conservatives.

Plus, liberals usually don't pay income taxes, but that's a side point. =D

WHAT-EVER about the GOP doctoring the vote. Does anyone here besides me remember the 3 Black Panthers with nightsticks and billy clubs who were charged with voter intimidation in the last general election? Your wonderful, caring liberals are the stooges who have to buy, steal, and/or intimidate the votes, not the conservatives.

What happens if we kill democracy? Short answer: we get our republic back, and things start returning to the way the Founders intended. I'm reminded of a story that I read recently: as people were leaving the Constitutional Convention, a lady walked up to Ben Franklin and asked him "Well, sir, what have you given us? A republic or a monarchy?" He replied "A republic, if you can keep it."

A democracy was never even on the table.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Right with you Bella.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Uh, yeah, number 88 is Dale Jr.'s number, right? Nice working jumping to conclusions, Diehl. Anyway, I just said that I agreed with what he said, not with his supposed white-supremacist leanings...

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I think the reason that Right Wing and Left Wing are referred to as "wings" is because they are on the outer edges of the mainstream and really don't represent the majority of folks in the middle and their values.

Personally, I stand on the "Right" side of the aisle, as it were, but certainly not on the "wing" or radical fringe. If one cannot see the damage done to our nation, our economy, and our freedoms by the goons of both parties in the last ____ (you fill in the blank) years, then you are certainly blinded by your own agenda. JMHO, which is only worth what you just paid for it!

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

FTR, if you're going to get onto the whole white-supremacy numbers game, that means you are also going to have to condemn numbers, 81, 14, 5, 4/20, 311, 33, and 6...among other things.

So, if I was born on the 14th of February, and I put a 14 behind my user name (i.e. dukkillr14), that automatically makes me a skinhead white supremacist? Or if I was a John Andretti fan (he won the 2003 Winston Cup with number 81), and I make my username dukkillr81, I'm a racist bigot? Can anyone here say p-a-r-a-n-o-i-d?

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

dukkillr-
Correct you are, Sir. Dale Jr. is currently in 25th place in the standings.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Yeah, the 88 car was also driven by Buck Baker, Benny Parsons, Donnie Allison ( who I know personally), Dale Jarrett, Darrel Waltrip (DW), Rusty Wallace, Bobby Allison (know him too), Larry Pearson, Buddy Baker, and several more in addition to Dale Jr.

I guess I should put a "12" on my tag since that was a number most often used by NASCAR's Alabama Gang - Allison brothers, Davey Allison, Neil Bonnett, and Hut Stricklin.

Lighten up fellas, it's Friday!

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from JD wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Hmmm, Good thing I didn't add an 88 to my handle, seeing as I fancy a Winchester model 88 quite a bit!

Is it ok if I add TGIF! Have a great weekend and keep yer powder dry ;-)

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from JD wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

David,

208 responses! Wow, do I detect a hint of a smile?

Thanks for presenting this topic, and as I mentioned in an earlier post, thanks for bringing us all the SHOT show information, well done! Goes for Phil also and the rest of the staff!

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from davidpetzal wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

To JD: You sly devil, yes you do. Always glad to see the swtichboard light up. Thanks for the kind words.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

JD - hahaha you shoulda seen the final result of "Tom Macyntire explains why Limbaugh is Villain of the year"! I think the final amount of comments was 503? or 504?

We do get some sort of reward for that record, right Dave?

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from nc30-06 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Bella is back and spreading liberal bs as usual. The conservatives did not oppose voter registration. What they opposed was motor-voter registration. Quite different. As for intimidating voters, ha! The liberals intimidate the dead to go on voting. Talk about voter fraud.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

...and they intimidate cats, and dogs, and imaginary people named Charlie Brown...

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Actually the "88" in my profile name is the year I was born but yes it has to do with NASCAR too!

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Oh, look out folks we have an offended person on the loose.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
zzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz!!

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Diehl can't prove that I am a "white supremesist" I have never said anything even remotely suggesting that I have those tendencies. The very opposite is true, I hold them in complete and total contempt.

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

BTW Diehl, I AM an Old, Crusty NCO who has given wall to wall counseling to quite a few young punks.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Proof that the armed forces is desperate enough to take people who should never wear the uniform. Seriously. If you're the sort of person who thinks beating someone because they're not willing to sign on to a Christian Nationalist agenda is just ducky, the USA never needed you

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Diehl, you sir a complete and total disgrace. You should be thanking Moishe for his service and for defending your right to openly disgrace him, his unit, the military and the Country that he served.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

BTW, if you're downgrading my last post, you're obviously the sort of person in favor of beating people who don't share you're religion. You're the sort of person against whom reasonable citizens arm themselves.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"Diehl, you sir a complete and total disgrace."

You're a classic douchebag. I don't own no farkin apology to any sad sack scumbag who think's he craps gold because he served.

"You should be thanking Moishe for his service and for defending your right to openly disgrace him, his unit, the military and the Country that he served."

I owe NOTHING to anyone who think's they're a superior life form. I don't need his or your protection of my rights. I have my own guns, thanks, to defend my liberties from s**tbirds like you.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Your own posts prove that you consider yourself a "higher life form" because of your total lack of respect for an American soldier. You are an angry, bitter man, you go take your guns and go fight America's wars all by your lonesome and see just how far you get.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Any man who does not appreciate what American soldier have done for our freedom and feels no gratitude or thankfulness for what has been accomplished is a little man indeed.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Try again. You came looking for a fight with me, ya perp. I'm not the one with "heil hitler" embedded in my name. I'm not the one talking smack at people because they don't kiss the axx of those who make not too veiled a comment about a beating.

I mean it. I wouldn't cross the street to p*ss on a low life turd like you. As for America's wars, if you want 'em, you go fight 'em. From my pov the only two wars I'd ever have considered volunteering for were WW2 and the War of the Rebellion (on the side of the USA). But if I thought America were run by people like you and Moishe, you could count on me to oppose you.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"Any man who does not appreciate what American soldier have done for our freedom and feels no gratitude or thankfulness for what has been accomplished is a little man indeed."

Any who thinks a soldier is a higher form of citizen is smaller still, and doth not understand the principles on which this nation was founded.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I already explained that my name has no negative connotations whatsoever. You keep trying to pin something on me, it won't stick. All you are doing is proving my points and making yourself look like a fool, and a proud on at that.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

So you wouldn't have fought in the Revolution huh? Well then, let me be the first to ask you to leave this great country that you so clearly have a problem with and go to France or better yet why don't you go and live with America's enemies like China or the bloody terrorists.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Good. Yer proud to be a Christian Nationalist and a basically immature insulting jackass, and I'm proud to tell you to jump off a bridge. We're both satisfied with the outcome of this conversation.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I hold American soldiers in very high esteem because I am very grateful for their service to this country. You see I understand the sacrifice that so many have given for my freedom and that humbles me. I will always stand up for the American soldier, they have enough to worry about fighting the enemy without having to fight their own country men too.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"So you wouldn't have fought in the Revolution huh?"

Probably not. Apparently 66% of the people living in the Colonies held a similar point of view.

"Well then, let me be the first to ask you to leave this great country that you so clearly have a problem with and go to France or better yet why don't you go and live with America's enemies like China or the bloody terrorists."

Ask all you want. The answer is no. If this country isn't "ours" then I regard it as "mine, not yours."

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"I will always stand up for the American soldier, they have enough to worry about fighting the enemy without having to fight their own country men too."

I agree. And no NCO is ever going to have to worry about fighting me unless he's stupid enough to try to "put me up against a wall." If he's gonna imply same in conversation, I'm inclined to regard him as having completely failed to get the point vis a vis the Constitution and any oath to defend it.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Than you are clearly anti American, I have no respect for you whatsoever. I was 100% right when I said you are part of what is wrong with America today. you have just proved that point far better than I ever could have hoped to.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Yo Diehl, you moron, didn't you hear the guy's explanation? It's his FREAKIN YEAR OF BIRTH, for crying out loud!

For someone who's so rabidly anti-military, why the blank did you even bother to comment on this post? Leave the discussions about the military to those who support the military, punk!

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"Than you are clearly anti American,"

Whatever. By your standards pretty much anyone without a jackboot and swastika is anti-American.

"I have no respect for you whatsoever."

The feeling is mutual, punk.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

So you wouldn't have fought in the Revolution? What kind of a spineless coward are you? I suppose you think it would be just peachy if the US was still controlled by the British, huh?

A soldier is someone who has laid his life on the line to protect idiots like you. They may not be a "higher life form", but they certainly deserve more respect.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"Yo Diehl, you moron, didn't you hear the guy's explanation? It's his FREAKIN YEAR OF BIRTH, for crying out loud!"

Yo, Dukkiller, you moron, any Christian Nationalist supremecist with an 88 in his pass doesn't get to walk from the label he chose to wear.

"For someone who's so rabidly anti-military,"

I'm not anit-military. I'm anti-Militarist. There's a difference. I don't fawn over people in uniforms just on account of the uniform.

"why the blank did you even bother to comment on this post?"

I commented because it seems to me that the practice of putting refs to NT text on scopes might be taken by radical Islamists in country to indicate that "after all it really IS about imposing one's religion on a moslem population." If you don't like where the thread went, perhaps you should ask rabbit why he immediately decided to make this thread a chickensh*t attack on me with his claims of Anti-Christianity (which dog won't hunt, as all of my Christian friends know well).

"Leave the discussions about the military to those who support the military, punk!"

Kiss my rear end, loser.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Diehl, you truly are delusional.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"A soldier is someone who has laid his life on the line to protect idiots like you."

Nope. A *COP* is more likely to have laid his life on the line for me. And anyone who served in WW2. After that, the whole business of why and where America fought gets quite awkward. One could argue that a soldier in Afghanistan gets the nod (at least I think so). But I think we could have prosecuted Afghanistan in a different fashion.

As to the other wars, I refer you to General Butler's (USMC) semi-autobiography: "War is a Racket." Look it up. Read it if you dare.

"They may not be a "higher life form", but they certainly deserve more respect"

Not the ones who insipidly chirp about the need for an NCO to beat someone up. They get no respect from me.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"Diehl, you truly are delusional."

Good. For a moment there I was concerned that people like you really DO exist (and get to vote).

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Oh, I assure you I do exist and do vote every time I get the chance. So I will tell my uncle who was a vietnam vet, both my grandfathers, three of my cousins, three of my uncles, my mother and grandmother that their service was a total wast of time and totally unessecary because Mike Diehl has just said so. Two of my cousins are in the Army, one is Afghanistan and one that has been to Iraq three times. They are both brave men that have seen action and one has taken a bullet in the leg and chose to stay and keep fighting. I would love for you to tell half of the stuff that just came out of your mouth to any American soldier and watch him shell your teeth out.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Ho hum. You can refer them to this thread if you like. Perhaps afterward they'll put restraints on you and lock you in a basement. Their bravery isn't in question. Whether or not they're defending ME or MY LIBERTY is, however, highly questionable.

Funny thing is, you and Moishe have now both suggested that my disagreement with you is grounds for a beating. To which I will note that anyone who wants to try to beat me will give me grounds for a shooting. But that's kinda beside the point, which vis Moishe's comment was, after all, if you're the sort to threaten to beat someone for not kissing your rear end or for disagreeing with you, then YOU'RE NOT MUCH OF A PROTECTOR OF LIBERTY.

As for your relatives, having had no conversations with them, I form no opinions of them, merely on account of the comments of a moral degenerate like you.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

This has been fun. But unless you've got an argument to make about whether or not putting NT text on a scope might be strategically counterproductive (or, if you like, strategically productive), we're done. I hold you in low regard. You feel the same about me. Fine. The 1st Amendment lives on.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Uh, dude, radical Islamists are never on our side so we don't really have to worry about alienating them. Sabe?

Anyone chasing terrorists is attempting to grant you extra time to breathe air on this planet, buddy boy. (i.e., they are protecting you. Newsflash.)

Show me how it's "strategically counterproductive"! The Bible is one of Islam's holy books, genius! Only bureaucrats and penpushers would come up with the crazy idea that putting references from one of their holy books on our rifle scopes would alienate our allies, who are not "radical Islamists" in the first place.

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from Steve Marlin wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Just think - sort of makes one wonder what is so powerful about those words that Trijicon printed on their gear that would make them risk this PR debacle.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Dukkillr, the point that I tried to get through to you and Kudukid is this. YES, the bible is one of the holy books in Islam. And if every person on earth who had a beef over it were to debate it around a coffee table then you could get reasonable moslems to agree that putting references to religious text on equipment doesn't matter.

But that's not the war we HAVE. The one we HAVE is one where an extremely popular pan-Islamist broadcast network, Al Jazeera, *constantly* feeds people, even moderates, the claim that the US is engaged in a war of religion to replace Islam with Christianity. In *that context*, handing them propaganda victories strikes me as strategically counterproductive, given that ultimate victory in COIN operations requires convincing the enemy that life isn't going to suck if they stop fighting.

THAT is why it matters and it seems to be why the USMC was concerned about the problem. But hey, if it's more important to proselytize than to win, nothing needs to be changed.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Diehl, do you honestly think that Al Jazeera is going to stop their propoganda attacks if we remove the Biblical references from our scopes? Honestly? They're never going to lack for ammo against us, whether or not we remove Biblical references from our scopes. Today it's the scopes, tomorrow it's something else.

If an Islamist already believes that the US is trying to replace Islam with Christianity, then wiping off the Biblical references from our scopes is not going to change his mind. On the other side, if an Islamist does NOT believe that we are trying to replace Islam with Christianity, then having Biblical references on our scopes is not going to drive him to the dark side either. In a real-world situation, Biblical references are not going to have a negative effect on our allies.

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from square_peg wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

When our military excursions are ill-conceived it's the politicians, not the soldiers who have erred. And the politicians have made some whopper-big errors.

Soldiers serve out of the desire to give to their country. It's a noble thing and they deserve our respect. Those who serve honorably deserve our gratitude.

And those who serve should be equipped as best we can for their success. And if this means removing Bible verses from scopes then it's a small inconvenience for the increased success of their mission.

This really isn't worth getting all worked up over.

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Diehl, First of all when I mentioned "Wall to Wall" counseling the first time it was simply a manner speech, I and most other SENIOR NCO's spoke of it but when we were in a room with soldiers to counsel there were more than 1 NCO present to prevent actual fighting or mistreatment of any soldier.

You obviously never served in the military, or you
would haveknown no SENIOR NCO would risk a Courts Martial by beating up a subordinate.

To the rest of you guys he is entitled to his opinion.

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from nc30-06 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

If logic followed the political correctnes insanity, then removing Bible quotes and replacing them with quotes from radical muslim dogma would stop all fighting huh? How absurd.
Oh, and by the way Mike, the American serviceman throughout history has fought, been maimed, suffered and yep, even died to give protection, and rights to all of us, even you whether you want to admit it or not. You don't speaking German do you?

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from 86Ram wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

This is directed towards some of the posts I've read

Bella, Deihl you two I swear feed off of each other and are the most synical and obnoxious know it alls I've ever seen.
Neither of you have served in the military and you take every opportunity to badger any positive comments towards a Christian or their beliefs.

Those ACOGS inscriptions or not are a tool that works and keeps us in the fight on top of the fight and on target. The inscriptions DO NOT hinder our combat effectiveness.

They know we are non Muslims..They could care less. We get briefed on how to interract and We are told to be respectful of their culture and their religion.
The enemy is the one with their panties in a bunch.

You've probably never had to put cross hairs, iron sights or a red dot on anyone. It takes alot to do that. And some people to draw on their religious beliefs. God forgive Soldiers for their actions that is in the Bible.
Also stated in the Bible that God has sent men to war to smite cities that were not living up to his expectations.

When the pucker factor kicks in and the bullets fly or that bird is comin in to come get you or get you there you bet your a$$ someone is praying and someone is thanking God in their own way.

I think this company has a right to put an inscription on its optics. The military could've once again ordered them without the inscription. But it was no big deal until someone got butt hurt and decided to make a fuss

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from 86Ram wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

First of all I could care less what the enemy feels towards our religious freedom.
All I know is that I would rather they feared us and either lost the will to fight or were overwhelmed by superior firepower and taken out of the fight permanently.

We cannot win a war with political correctness.
We are the best military in the world and we should fight without our hands tied by BS and with the best equipment available to us inscription or no inscription.

It meets our mission needs leave it alone.

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from 86Ram wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

richardf
first of all WE ARE NOT KILLERS! That is a blatant and outright INSULT!

WE are the US MIlitary Soldiers, Marines, Sailors and Airmen.

We do a job only 1% of this country is willing to do.
We protect and DEFEND this great Nation, the Constitution and Everyone in it SELFLESSLY! and as VOLUNTEERS!

We are asked to leave our families for months and years at a time!
We are asked to do leave our families, Sacrifice our lives at any given time to ensure our Nation and her Citizens and their Rights and Freedoms are protected.

We did not ask for this war. But we will do our jobs!

The least you can do is show some RESPECT! Alot of Families have loved ones that never came home defending your sorry a$$ and some of the others on here I think they know who they are, and thos Families of the Fallen and the Wounded Warriors and those in Harms way deserve that respect as well!

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"Diehl, do you honestly think that Al Jazeera is going to stop their propoganda attacks if we remove the Biblical references from our scopes? Honestly? They're never going to lack for ammo against us, whether or not we remove Biblical references from our scopes. Today it's the scopes, tomorrow it's something else."

It's not AJ you need to convince though. It's just Afghanis and Iraqis that you need to NOT feed the notion that the US is there to spread Christianity at the expense of Islam. You use all the tools in your toolbox in COIN ops or you don't. And if it is really the case that there is no hope of convincing the locals, then we've already lost. It's sort of surprising to me that some here don't seem to get it or care.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"Oh, and by the way Mike, the American serviceman throughout history has fought, been maimed, suffered and yep, even died to give protection, and rights to all of us"

I disagree. Service in the US armed forces is an honorable career. But the missions on which the US armed forces are deployed (at least the ones we know about) are mostly dishonorable missions. That is why I said before that the only wars I'd ever have volunteered for were WW2 and the War of the Rebellion. Viet Nam, Gulf 1, Iraq, Panama, Somalia, the Balkans, WW1, the Span Am, the Indian Wars.... none of these were waged in defense of the United States Constitution. There was no clear and present danger to the government or the citizenry or my rights or liberties.

You could argue, possibly correctly, that service in the Cold War submarine fleet was service in defense of my life n liberty. And I think Afghanistan fits the bill too. And WW2 and the War of the Rebellion. But the rest. Not a dratted one of them. The local PD do more to secure my rights in any given year than all the servicement in all the other wars (save those mentioned above) over all the years combined.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"Diehl, First of all when I mentioned "Wall to Wall" counseling..."

My apologies then. Sounded like you were implying something else.

"You obviously never served in the military"

You're correct. I've yet to see a war in my lifetime that I thought was worth my money as a taxpayer much less my service as a volunteer. I did consider the Coast Guard pretty thoroughly, but then I get sick as a dog on boats. In my view their job does alot of good on a daily basis. This isn't a knock against the other services, but as long as any president can deploy forces for any lame excuse they want and do it, we're not likely to see too many conflicts in which our involvement was clearly a matter of national interest. Maybe Afghanistan.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Diehl, are you trying to say that having "Jn 8 18" on a scope tube is going to convince the Afghanis that we're trying to turn them into a Christian nation? Cmon, man, can we please get this off the preschool level? Get real.

The other wars were legit peacekeeping, pal. You are starting to sound really selfish here, like as if you were saying "If it didn't directly protect me, then it was a dishonorable engagement." For crying out loud, we were fighting Commies in Vietnam and Korea who would have attacked us on American soil if given half a chance! We had the option of helping our allies out (and since when is following through on a treaty agreement a dishonorable engagement?) and fighting the Commies over there or of standing on the sidelines and letting them get strong enough to try an assault on US soil. Again, get real.

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from 86Ram wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Deihl the only thing you'd volunteer for was somethin self serving!

Get over yourself... really it's unbecoming!

I beg to differ it means somethin to the men and women serving over there and to their families. To the ones that lost loved ones and freinds! So therefore it means somethin!
Tell that BS to the Vets or the Families of those vets faces:
Afghanistan, WW1, WW2, The Revolutionary War, Iraq, VietNam, Panama, Somalia, Korea, Spannish American War,
the Cold War. NONE were DISHONORABLE missions.

We serve /served our country when called upon Not only HONORABLY and IAW the Oath that we took.
You sir disgrace our country and it's Fighting forces by your stupidity and your BS!
If you don't like this Country or it's defenders than you get a one way ticket to somewhere else. You probably were a draft dodger anyways.. and obviously an arrogant egotist.

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from 86Ram wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

To all of the Vets that were Drafted I have the utmost respect for y'all as well. I wasn't trying to be one sided. You served with honor as well. Thank you!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Hey guys,

There are a few folks on here that will not be swayed or intimidated by ranting and raving and insults. Mike Diehl is one of them. Agree or not, you aren't going to compromise him banging on your keyboard. Present a thoughtful position and he will agree or disagree, ususally no more or no less.

But start name calling or hurling insults, and it's game on! crm3006 and I have been flamed by some self righteous morons and what did they resort to? Calling our wives names! What a joke! As if that makes them right. Cut out the personal insults and the tit for tat. Everyone will be better for it.

Mike I still like reading your posts! you haven't insulted my wife or dog yet! LOL And I personally don't put much stock in whether you served or not, but I respect the men and women I served with in two armed services for 22 1/2 years. All but the first 2 by choice!

respectfully,
WMH

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from nc30-06 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

86ram, your posts are dead on in every respect. The first one was so good. All up votes.
Mike, who gives you the right to judge our military for fighting in all the places you are so against? Oh yeah, it was our military. And, just to clarify the matter, the military itself did not go to all these places on their own, they were sent by our presidents and congress.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Come to think of it, I can't recall any wars started by soldiers. There have been incidents sparked by the inappropriate actions of military members, but only the Congress can declare war and the President, or Teleprompter in one's absence, has limited authority to send troops, etc. without consulting Congress. Last time I checked, 'We the People' elected those clowns for better or worse. Think about THAT next time you punch a chad.

The women and men who serve our national interests are all volunteers since the draft ended over 30 years ago.

As for Trijicon scopes or any other stuff, I'm all for anything to help "Arrange the Meeting" of the jihadists and terrorists with the one true God of the universe. You and I will meet him one day ourselves.

WMH

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from 86Ram wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I take offense to the military being put down and judged by people who don't know wtf they are talking about!
I'm not tryin to put anyone down and if they get butt hurt by the truth even if they cannot accept it or be reasoned with so be it.

I take serious offense to the being called killers as well. We're doing our mission given to us by Congress and the President.

I won't be swayed in my opinion either and I'm not gonna cave to someone who openly insults the military and will not and has not served themselves.

I'm not banging keyboards I'm callin his BS for what it is pure and utter BS!

This isn't tit for tat this is coming from someone currently serving and who was incensed and enraged by the BS I've been reading and the insults directed towards our Military

Mike some of your posts are ok.. but this BS is not!

Enjoy your Freedom of speach high speed.... If it weren't for us Military personnel you belittle and begrudge so much you wouldn't have it!

Enough said on this!

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from 86Ram wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

nc30.06 Thank you...

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Sitfing through the chaff and flares to get at the stuff that resembles conversation:

"I respect the men and women I served with in two armed services for 22 1/2 years."

Me too. But I don't idolize them. Some people here missed my point. NCO 30-06 I don't blame the servicement for the missions they get. It doesn't change the fact that many (most of them in fact) (1) don't have anything to do with defending the US, US citizenry, or the US Constitution (again, I refer you to the late Gen. S. Butler), and (2) often are counterproductive in re freedom and the like. That's Presidents' fault. Not servicemens' fault. I happen to like most of the soldiers I've met ftf. *Most* of them. Some have been real jerks though. I've talked people into staying in the Army because I knew they were smart, competent, and good leaders of people, and because I thought they'd discover that graduate school in the social sciences is an exercise in carrying sacks of chicken poop. I could hardly despise vets, being the son of one, and the grandson of a WW2 flag rank vet who served in three theaters of war.

Dukkillr - we're done. You can't seem to stay on target, likely because you don't know anything either about Islam, Islamism, COIN, or nation building. If you think that nation building in Afghanistan or Iraq matters, then you'd see the issue differently. Since that *seems* to be our objective (worthy or not), then the propaganda war matters.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Diehl - For the record, I do competitive speech on Islam so the odds are that I know a heck of a lot more about it than you do. Your knowledge of Islam and Muslims in general seems to be restricted to what you hear PBS and NBC pump out.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

How's the weather at your house? Got any good hunting stories? How about some relaoding tips?

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from Bella wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Funny how this is only the 4th time I have commented on this particular thread and yet all these "sportsmen" take soo much time flinging insults at me. Yet I notice that thew insult slingers, by and by large choose rediculous Psudonymns to hide behind. People like Mike, Moishe and a few others have the courage of their convictions enough not to hide behind a mask while the most hysterical and abusive choose monikers that don't even suggest humanity. Duckslayer and Rabbithitler being cases in point.
These irrational sorts keep on posting the same facetious notions as if they were true and it is like playing whack a mole just to try to keep up with the gibberish.
Like the silly notion that if we quit being a democracy we'd recover thew Republic. If representatives aren't democraticly elected, then what pray tell is the alternative? Having "representatives" appointed by corporate and fundamentalist elites? Who then would they represent? Not the people- but the very special interests who have corrupted the system.
Another whopper that keeps on being bandied about is that Our Nation is founded on "Christian" principles. The only Republic mentioned in the Bible is Rome! When Rome was a republic it was hundreds of years before Yeshua walked, the Republic had fallen by the time Yeshua was born. The only forms of government mentioned in the Judeo-christian texts is Monarchy or Tribal governance. Read the friekin' book! If America's government were based on the Bible we'd be a monarchy, period. Now I'd welcome governance based on Christian principles, as long as the principles involved were the emphasis on love, toleration, kindness and charity actually taught by Yeshua as opposed to the paranoia, and chauvanism taught by Paul or the glorification of greed seen in Calvinism, let alone the self rightiousness seen in Catholicism and Mormonism.
The truth of the history of the Founders is that they came from many mutually excusive variations on Judeo-christian themes and they didn't trust each other as far as they could spit. The Baptists didn't want the Methodists taking advantage and they both despised the Catholics and Quakers. Everybody remembered the religious wars that tore Europe apart and nobody wanted that happening here, not when they still had the Brits to expel. However they had all read the Classics of Greco-Roman literature- Plato, Tacitus and Livy (to mention a few) and this was the ideal they adopted- The Classic. This is why our public buildings reflect Greece and Rome, not Jerusalem.
Now I know that these simple notions will infuriate those who fear to post except under pseudonyms, but facts are facts, (and I am stronger than anyone who needs to hide behind a mask). Again, I would comment on the very lameness of those who would anonymously ridicule others and how very very unoriginal the insults rendered are. Please if you anonymous maroons wish to engage in witty repartee', come up with something original for once instead of spreading your ignorant excuses for Maledictions over the internet. Soo boring, Soo trite. You can do better, I know it.

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from Bella wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Can I get Trijicon to print "Blessed are the Cheesemakers" on my scope? (from the book of "Brian") or how about "The Pen-s is Bad, the Gun is Good" (ZARDOZ). Either of those should still offend Muslims and the only references are to weird movies from the past.
Truth be told I don't really want anything wriiten on my scope but make, model number and graduation and calibration marks. I don't wear T shirts with advertisements or stupid quips on my front porch, why would I want such on a piece of equipment. If I need to express an opinion, I will verbally or orally, I don't need to emblazon it all over my gear.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

You're going after me for my user name? Really, Bella, come on. 95% of the people on this site use non-real-name user names! Geez. Next you're going to be saying "I have 5 stars and you only have 3 so that means I win!"

As for irrational sorts, I just have one thing to say: I'm not the one screaming about "Amerikan gulags" here. Nuff said.

Of course our representatives are democratically elected, but once they are elected you need to let them do their job. Which was my original point.

When people say that our nation was founded upon Christian principles (btw, our Founders said that too), they're talking about certain examples that God laid out. For instance, God didn't say "Thou shalt have a Republic, and this Republic shall be made up of two houses of Congress, and this Republic shall also have an Executive, someone who shall be elected every four years..." That's not what the Founders meant when they said that this was a Christian nation founded upon Christian principles. What they meant was that they used certain ideas such as the example of Moses: he was ruling the Israelites, and there was too much stuff for him to do (duh), so his father-in-law suggested delegating powers - in other words, have all the clans of Israel get together and each select one man to act as a representative to Moses and/or as a representative in disputes. The Founding Fathers saw this, and they used it when they structured our government into a Republic. That is what being founded upon Biblical principles means. (And ofc there were a lot of other principles they used, such as no man being above the law, but I'm just giving one example for sake of time.)

Btw, Jesus didn't teach "toleration", at least not how it's used today. He taught us to love all men but to hate their sin, i.e. to love homosexuals as fellow human beings but to strive to help them get over their problems. That kind of tolerance, not the kind that says "Sure, whatever you want to do, it's all good."

Yes, they came from different denominations and they didn't want just one denomination ruling over the others. No one is arguing about that. Yes, they took a lot of their ideas from Plato and Socrates and others. I don't see your point here. Yes, they did all that...but they still took a large part of their ideas from the Bible, which is why they say that they founded the US as a "Christian nation". I don't know about you, but when a builder says that he built something a certain way, I generally tend to believe him.

Fear to post? Give it a break. My name is James Earl Simon, and according your logic I am now the bravest person here because I have given my last name AND my middle name. And no, I'm not seriously buying into all this braver-than-thou stuff, but since you made such a big deal of it, I thought I'd better let you know before you and Diehl started delving into what "dukkillr" really means. (For the record, it means that I like to hunt ducks. Crazy twist, huh? =P)

And finally, you haven't said anything that I haven't heard from liberals many, many times before. Your arguments are not quite original, I'm afraid.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

"The Founding Fathers saw this, and they used it when they structured our government into a Republic."

By that logic, the Constitution was baded on Iroquois political organization, since the founders mentioned THAT too. And more primarily on the Magna Carta. So welcome to the Republic founded on English law (which derives from a blend of Saxon law and Roman law with a twist of Renaissence libertarian enlightenment), Iroquois governance, atheism, and also the bible. Kinda makes it NOT founded on the bible then.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

WMH - The weather in Northwestern NC is cold, man! We've had about a foot of snow in the past two days...for the second time this year, which almost never happens. The last time I remember us getting this much snow was in 2000 (I think). And they're calling for more on Friday.

What about ya'll?

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Diehl - I'm NOT saying that it was founded solely on the Bible. I repeat, I'm NOT saying that it was founded solely on the Bible. The Founding Fathers had a unique opportunity to look around (and back in history) and select the best parts of many different governments, which is in a large part responsible for how great our nation is today compared to Britain or France.

My point was this: the Founding Fathers took a very large amount of their ideas from the Bible, which is why they SAID that this nation was founded upon Christian principles. Is everyone clear now? They said that this nation was founded upon the Bible (notice: none of their ideas contradicted any Biblical principles either), and I'm agreeing with them. You guys are the ones trying to say "No, they were wrong when they said that, they didn't really found it on the Bible." Does anyone else see a problem with that logic?

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

I don't see any evidence that they took ANY of their ideas from the bible. The claim that the idea of delegating authority in a complex hierarchy derives from any testament is such an absurd overreach that it doesn't stand any test of logic, quite apart from the fact that it ignores the zillions of other examples of the same notion that have not one thing to do with the bible and that in many cases predate ANYTHING biblical.

China had a professional system of governance LONG BEFORE any small time town manager in the Levant had the idea that he couldn't oversee every aspect of governance on his own.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

"They said that this nation was founded upon the Bible"

No, they didn't. You claiming same doesn't mean they did. Read Madison's notes. There's not a single reference to the Constitution being founded on Biblical teachings, examples, derived implications of bureaucratic organization, or anything else biblical. And many of the founders went on in their own writings to specifically say that the nation WASN'T founded on biblical principles, teachings, sentiments, ideas, etc. Had it been founded even on organizational principles espoused by Christianity, we'd have our own pope, not a president, or possibly, as Bella suggested, a monarch.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Don't have a lot of time so I'll just reply quickly and come back later with a more in depth response...

"And many of the founders went on in their own writings to specifically say..." etc etc. That all depends on what your definition of "founder" is - if you view Thomas Jefferson as a founder then your statement might have some truth in it because he did make that argument - he and John Adams fought repeatedly over whether or not it was. I'm going with John Adams since he was a delegate at the Constitutional Convention and Jefferson wasn't, but if you view Jefferson as a founder then your statement can be true. So, in all honesty, it can go both ways, it all depends on who you view as the original Founders.

Sorry, gotta run, more later...

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

01/2000
John Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States

[I]t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401, to Zabdiel Adams on June 21, 1776.)

[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, and Co. 1854), Vol. IX, p. 229, October 11, 1798.)

The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1851), Vol. VI, p. 9.)

John Quincy Adams

Sixth President of the United States

The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code; it contained many statutes . . . of universal application-laws essential to the existence of men in society, and most of which have been enacted by every nation which ever professed any code of laws.

(Source: John Quincy Adams, Letters of John Quincy Adams, to His Son, on the Bible and Its Teachings (Auburn: James M. Alden, 1850), p. 61.)

There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy.

(Source: John Quincy Adams, Letters of John Quincy Adams to His Son on the Bible and Its Teachings (Auburn: James M. Alden, 1850), pp. 22-23.)

Samuel Adams

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.

(Source: William V. Wells, The Life and Public Service of Samuel Adams (Boston: Little, Brown, & Co., 1865), Vol. I, p. 22, quoting from a political essay by Samuel Adams published in The Public Advertiser, 1749.)

Fisher Ames

Framer of the First Amendment

Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers.

(Source: Fisher Ames, An Oration on the Sublime Virtues of General George Washington (Boston: Young & Minns, 1800), p. 23.)

Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.

(Source: Bernard C. Steiner, The Life and Correspondence of James McHenry (Cleveland: The Burrows Brothers, 1907), p. 475. In a letter from Charles Carroll to James McHenry of November 4, 1800.)

Oliver Ellsworth

Chief-Justice of the Supreme Court

[T]he primary objects of government are the peace, order, and prosperity of society. . . . To the promotion of these objects, particularly in a republican government, good morals are essential. Institutions for the promotion of good morals are therefore objects of legislative provision and support: and among these . . . religious institutions are eminently useful and important. . . . [T]he legislature, charged with the great interests of the community, may, and ought to countenance, aid and protect religious institutions—institutions wisely calculated to direct men to the performance of all the duties arising from their connection with each other, and to prevent or repress those evils which flow from unrestrained passion.

(Source: Connecticut Courant, June 7, 1802, p. 3, Oliver Ellsworth, to the General Assembly of the State of Connecticut)

Benjamin Franklin

Signer of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence

[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

(Source: Benjamin Franklin, The Writings of Benjamin Franklin, Jared Sparks, editor (Boston: Tappan, Whittemore and Mason, 1840), Vol. X, p. 297, April 17, 1787. )

I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.

(Source: James Madison, The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, Max Farrand, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1911), Vol. I, pp. 450-452, June 28, 1787.)

* For more details on this quote, click here.

Thomas Jefferson

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Third President of the United States

Give up money, give up fame, give up science, give the earth itself and all it contains rather than do an immoral act. And never suppose that in any possible situation, or under any circumstances, it is best for you to do a dishonorable thing, however slightly so it may appear to you. Whenever you are to do a thing, though it can never be known but to yourself, ask yourself how you would act were all the world looking at you, and act accordingly. Encourage all your virtuous dispositions, and exercise them whenever an opportunity arises, being assured that they will gain strength by exercise, as a limb of the body does, and that exercise will make them habitual. From the practice of the purest virtue, you may be assured you will derive the most sublime comforts in every moment of life, and in the moment of death.

(Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, DC: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1903), Vol. 5, pp. 82-83, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr on August 19, 1785.)

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of mankind.

(Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. XV, p. 383.)

I concur with the author in considering the moral precepts of Jesus as more pure, correct, and sublime than those of ancient philosophers.

(Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. X, pp. 376-377. In a letter to Edward Dowse on April 19, 1803.)

Richard Henry Lee

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people.

(Source: Richard Henry Lee, The Letters of Richard Henry Lee, James Curtis Ballagh, editor (New York: The MacMillan Company, 1914), Vol. II, p. 411. In a letter to Colonel Mortin Pickett on March 5, 1786.)

James McHenry

Signer of the Constitution

[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

(Source: Bernard C. Steiner, One Hundred and Ten Years of Bible Society Work in Maryland, 1810-1920 (Maryland Bible Society, 1921), p. 14.)

Jedediah Morse

Patriot and "Father of American Geography"

To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.

(Source: Jedidiah Morse, A Sermon, Exhibiting the Present Dangers and Consequent Duties of the Citizens of the United States of America (Hartford: Hudson and Goodwin, 1799), p. 9.)

William Penn

Founder of Pennsylvania

[I]t is impossible that any people of government should ever prosper, where men render not unto God, that which is God's, as well as to Caesar, that which is Caesar's.

(Source: Fundamental Constitutions of Pennsylvania, 1682. Written by William Penn, founder of the colony of Pennsylvania.)

Pennsylvania Supreme Court

No free government now exists in the world, unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country.

(Source: Pennsylvania Supreme Court, 1824. Updegraph v. Commonwealth; 11 Serg. & R. 393, 406 (Sup.Ct. Penn. 1824).)

Benjamin Rush

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.

(Source: Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical (Philadelphia: Thomas and William Bradford, 1806), p. 8.)

We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism.

(Source: Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical (Philadelphia: Printed by Thomas and William Bradford, 1806), pp. 93-94.)

By renouncing the Bible, philosophers swing from their moorings upon all moral subjects. . . . It is the only correct map of the human heart that ever has been published. . . . All systems of religion, morals, and government not founded upon it [the Bible] must perish, and how consoling the thought, it will not only survive the wreck of these systems but the world itself. "The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." [Matthew 1:18]

(Source: Benjamin Rush, Letters of Benjamin Rush, L. H. Butterfield, editor (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1951), p. 936, to John Adams, January 23, 1807.)

Remember that national crimes require national punishments, and without declaring what punishment awaits this evil, you may venture to assure them that it cannot pass with impunity, unless God shall cease to be just or merciful.

(Source: Benjamin Rush, An Address to the Inhabitants of the British Settlements in America Upon Slave-Keeping (Boston: John Boyles, 1773), p. 30.)

Joseph Story

Supreme Court Justice

Indeed, the right of a society or government to [participate] in matters of religion will hardly be contested by any persons who believe that piety, religion, and morality are intimately connected with the well being of the state and indispensable to the administrations of civil justice. The promulgation of the great doctrines of religion—the being, and attributes, and providence of one Almighty God; the responsibility to Him for all our actions, founded upon moral accountability; a future state of rewards and punishments; the cultivation of all the personal, social, and benevolent virtues—these never can be a matter of indifference in any well-ordered community. It is, indeed, difficult to conceive how any civilized society can well exist without them.

(Source: Joseph Story, A Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1847), p. 260, §442.)

George Washington

"Father of Our Country"

While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support.

(Source: George Washington, The Writings of George Washington, John C. Fitzpatrick, editor (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), Vol. XXX, p. 432 n., from his address to the Synod of the Dutch Reformed Church in North America, October 9, 1789.)

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of man and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice?

And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who, that is a sincere friend to it, can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?

(Source: George Washington, Address of George Washington, President of the United States . . . Preparatory to His Declination (Baltimore: George and Henry S. Keatinge), pp. 22-23. In his Farewell Address to the United States in 1796.)

[T]he [federal] government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, and oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any other despotic or oppressive form so long as there shall remain any virtue in the body of the people.

(Source: George Washington, The Writings of George Washington, John C. Fitzpatrick, editor (Washington: U. S. Government Printing Office, 1939), Vol. XXIX, p. 410. In a letter to Marquis De Lafayette, February 7, 1788.)

* For the full text of Geo. Washington's Farewell Address, click here.

Daniel Webster

Early American Jurist and Senator

[I]f we and our posterity reject religious instruction and authority, violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the political constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us that shall bury all our glory in profound obscurity.

(Source: Daniel Webster, The Writings and Speeches of Daniel Webster (Boston: Little, Brown, & Company, 1903), Vol. XIII, p. 492. From "The Dignity and Importance of History," February 23, 1852.)

Noah Webster

Founding Educator

The most perfect maxims and examples for regulating your social conduct and domestic economy, as well as the best rules of morality and religion, are to be found in the Bible. . . . The moral principles and precepts found in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. These principles and precepts have truth, immutable truth, for their foundation. . . . All the evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. . . . For instruction then in social, religious and civil duties resort to the scriptures for the best precepts.

(Source: Noah Webster, History of the United States, "Advice to the Young" (New Haven: Durrie & Peck, 1832), pp. 338-340, par. 51, 53, 56.)

James Wilson

Signer of the Constitution

Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both.

(Source: James Wilson, The Works of the Honourable James Wilson (Philadelphia: Bronson and Chauncey, 1804), Vol. I, p. 106.)

Robert Winthrop

Former Speaker of the US House of Representatives

Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them or by a power without them; either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or by the bayonet.

(Source: Robert Winthrop, Addresses and Speeches on Various Occasions (Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1852), p. 172 from his "Either by the Bible or the Bayonet.")

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Okay I just stumbled on these quotes so I'm going to just throw them out there as is, don't have time to discuss them right now...

Patrick Henry - "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

John Adams - "The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity."

John Adams - "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one dissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state." T. Jefferson

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" John Adams

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses." also John Adams

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." James Madison

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

"It is better, far better, that we admitted, if it were possible, a thousand devils to roam at large, and to preach publicly the doctrine of devils, if there were any such, than that we permitted one such impostor and monster as Moses, Joshua, Samuel, and the Bible prophets, to come with the pretended word of God in his mouth, and have credit among us." Thos, Paine

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

"Is conformity of sentiments in matters of religion essential to the happiness of civil government? Not at all. Government has no more to do with the religious opinions of men than it has with the principles of the mathematics. Let every man speak freely without fear--maintain the principles that he believes--worship according to his own faith, either one God, three Gods, no God, or twenty Gods; and let government protect him in so doing, i.e., see that he meets with no personal abuse or loss of property for his religious opinions." -- John Leland (who was, btw, a Baptist minister)

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Amen on the John Leland quote. I don't need government telling me how to do anything regarding faith. You see how well they do with the powers that they have usurped already....

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

What's really entertaining is watching my post ratings surge to +3 or so and then back down. You have to wonder what the people marking those posts down imagine themselves to be doing? Dissing on the Constitutional Founders, or just lamenting that anyone knows what the Constitutional Founders said and is willing to quote them in public. It speaks volumes about what the silent critics actually think about the US Constitution, i.e., that it's an inconvenience to their agenda.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Posting ratings? It never was much of a big deal to me, I think it's kinda funny too to watch postings go back and forth from +2 to -3 back up to +1...sometimes I wish that the ppl who spend their time rating other ppl would just come out and say what they mean!

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from Fenceguy wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

It doesn't really matter whats on the product; it is nobody's business but the man who makes it, like an artists signature or a watermark.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Just a few things - I totally agree with the John Adams quote about "abuses of grief", it is pretty sickening to look back and see all the persecution of Jews and other religious groups that occurred because such-and-such religious sect accused another of being responsible for the death of Christ. Grief can be good (when it's genuine) but definitely not when abused.

The Jefferson quote was in a letter to the Emerson Baptists.

The James Madison quote...yes, of course we don't want a state religion, no problems there...

Thomas Paine was an atheist, that quote was no surprise.

John Leland - right on, no way should the government try to make everyone "conform" to the "sentiments of religion". Nice quotes!

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from Bella wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Yea Mike! Atta way to tell 'em.
It is touching to see so many conservatives so motivated by morality, all the more interesting considering the blatant immorality of those they choose as leaders, Such as those who twisted the law to allow themselves to torture, invade nations without just cause, deprive thousands of their constitutional rights and pillage the economy for their own benefit. Perhaps with a greater emphasis on personal morality such as Yeshua (Jesus) taught we can get through our national crisis together. I have always believed that morality begins with the individual, that he (or she) who is without sin should cast the first stone. I believe that honesty begins with the individual as well, and if the individuals who make up organizations were honest and fair then in theory the organizations themselves should be honest and fair as well.
I have however observed that people are rarely interested in honesty or fairness unless they have been lied to or cheated. In most interactions most people seem to seek personal advantage rather than to offer fair dealing, which has an inherent dishonesty attached. However that is Capitalism which hold profit taking as it's highest ideal as opposed to the Socialism so often reviled that puts the needs of the people in the community as the highest ideal.
No wonder "conservatives" gripe about paying their taxes, even though the Savior they so often refer to admonished his followers to "render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's". Plainly conservatives are acting out the Capitalist ideal and seeking to receive the privileges of membership in society without paying their due, skating their responsibilities and objecting to the societies commitment to care for it's less fortunate members. Whenever I talk to conservatives on issues of fairness or equality it always winds up demonstrating that any coin toss is fair as long as they win it. They have attempted to redefine so many things according to political expediency, claiming the very mantle of patriotism only for themselves. But it ain't so Joe.
The very notion suggested that there could be an Amewrican Republic without democratic elections is itself unpatriotic, as Democracy is as enshrined in the Constitution as is the Bicameral system of Representation in Congress. If you are a patriot, then you support the Constitution, If you dislike Democracy because it gives "those people over there" a vote too, then you are no patriot, but something else.
The specious claim that our Constitution is somehow based on Christian principles is another attempt by antidemocratic elements to subvert our secular society. The claim that persons who support the secular nature of our governance are somehow anti religious is as much a lie as claiming only conservatives are patriots. The lies get shouted again and again asa if shouting the lies would make them true. But then we are back to this issue of personal morality again. Yeshua rejected hegemony and did not seek to govern his followers during his ministry, but told them to "love one another, as I have loved you". As I have written in other threads, you can tell the Real Christians by what they do, how much they give of themselves for God and others, not how loudly they yell divisive dogmas or how frequently they judge others.
So "christians" how goes it with the objecting to taxation and the ammassing of arsenals and all. Jesus telling you guys to do all that? Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition ain't in the Bible you know, or are you guys trying to psyche yourselves up to go and exterminate the Bethelites or something?

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Bella, try to stay on track here, I know it's hard for you but we are not talking about taxes. 60% of Americans don't pay their taxes and everybody complains about paying taxes not just "christians". If you say you don't complain you lie. I pay about 40% of my annual income to taxes at the local, state and federal levels.

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Deihl, I will tell you point blank what I think, listen carefully.

1. You are a bombastic blowhard.
2. You are a bigot.
3. You are marginally delusional.
4. You are stubborn.
5. You simply cannot stand anyone who disagrees with you.
6. You seem to hate religion in all denominations.
7. You have delusions of grandeur. (Napoleonic personality)
8. You think you are superior to mere mortal men.
9. You think your opinion is the only one worth having.

In spite of all that you are as entitled to your opinions,

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

oh, and by the way Diehl of the three plus ones one of them is yours but seriously who gives a hoot or a holler about a couple of plus ones or negative ones.

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from Bella wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Oh and 86ram I am a veteran, I got out of the USAF with an honorable discharge back in 1979 and I served with the 8th TAC at Kunsan AFB in the ROK as well as in other places. You should be thanking ME for my service. I enlisted when it wasn't popular and I never got any medals or significant rank, but I served, which is more than some of the barking dogs out there can say.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Bella again...okay, here goes: waterboarding isn't torture, we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan to hunt down terrorists, which constitutional rights are you talking about?, and whatever. =D

Socialism doesn't put the needs of the people ahead. Can anyone say "Russia"? Capitalism is the only fair way of doing things, period. If you earn it, you keep it; if you don't earn it, you don't keep it. What's wrong with that?

Sure, we gripe about paying our taxes, but at least we pay taxes! In contrast to liberals, of course, who are constantly being exposed for tax evasion whenever Obama appoints them to his Cabinet.

Conservatism is very fair: if I earn $200, I should be allowed to keep $200 (minus reasonable taxes for roads and such.) It's the liberals who want to take the lion's share and redistribute it thru "welfare" and "socialized medicine" to the people didn't earn it! How is that fair?

I didn't suggest that notion, as I clearly stated "of course our representatives are elected democratically". Yes, let's support the Constitution! That's a novel idea! Can we start with the general welfare clause? Or the enumerated powers clause? Or any of the other clauses that liberals are always trying to ignore?

Specious claim? Quote, Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

Yes, Jesus told man to love one another. He also flipped over the tables in the temple, drove the moneychangers out, and said "if any man does not have a sword, let him sell his cloak and buy one." He wasn't a tolerant wuss, Bella, He stood up for what was right.

And what the heck is wrong with buying an Ar-15 and a thousand rounds of ammo? Some people just like to have cool guns, me included.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Bella, Allow me to be the first to say thank you for your service, I strongly disagree with just about everything you say but I do thank you for serving.

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

I was water boarded myself three times in survival training, it's no big deal.

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from Bella wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

As if "taxation" isn't usually the first thing conservatives start railing about after demanding legislation to intrude into the personal lives of others.
But back onto the subject of "booth babes" if you'druther. My major suggestion there was simply regarding equal treatment, ie. gender equality. I understand conservatives don't like gender equality either, after all what party was it that objected to the ERA... I am well aware that many male conservatives would love to return to the era when women couldn't vote or inherit and were considered unequal before the law. But we women couldn't stomach such conditions and fought for years till we won equality. You can't keep us as property any more and we like it that way.
Booth babes as such I have no serious objection to, after all the poor scantily clad dears are likely well enough paid, but equal representation is equal representation... Why not give a few empty headed hunky types a gig, they likely need the money too and as long as soft porn is on the agenda why not have something for the ladeeze and the Leathermen to look at, having satisfied the Het Men and the dykes so well. America's strength is still in Diversity. Out of many One. E Pluribus Unum.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

"Deihl, I will tell you point blank what I think, listen carefully."

No need. You've pretty much said anything anyone needs to hear, troll. You could spend a lifetime flattering yourself and telling others what you think of them, and the universe would miss nothing. You are a waste of molecules. Feel free to throw yourself in a waste treatment pond where you belong.

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

I bet the +1 is yours, well if you feel you need it to justify you inflated view of your woth so be it. I am done with you. You are still though entitled to your opinion. Mazeltov schmeckeleh !

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Back atcha, putz.

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from Bella wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Waterboarded 3 times in survival school Moishe? I believe you but seriously are you eager to do it again?
Oh and thank you for your service too Moishe, I have a certain appreciation for crusty old Sargents, even if I don't agree with 'em all the time.
At any rate the Army field manual forbids torture, and when our guys were being waterboarded back in previous conflicts we were happy to call it torture at the time.
Intimidation and Sadism are lousy way to obtain co-operation anyway, which is one of the reasons the American Psychological Association condemns it. If you really want to turn somebody you do it with sweetness not with cruelty. Using sympathy, validation and "I'm your real friend here" tactics when one actually starts getting co-operation one can have some actual confidence in the validity of the information rather than face the conundrum of the man who will agree to anything if it will make the pain stop. Sun Tzu tells us how it is better to co-opt and turn the enemies agents rather than to attempt to merely break them. But history repeats itself, and people who live by violence will inevitably have some Sadists in their ranks, who will inevitably seek the opportunity to make Sadism the official policy so they can get to hurt people again and not get in trouble. But Sadism is usually pathological and despite the utility of psychopaths in battle they tend to wind up doing things that make their brothers in arms look bad. Soldiers (who are volunteers) rarely can be motivated to follow psychopaths higher in the command structure (unless they too are psychopaths). This tends to interfere with the afore mentioned command structure...
It is true that in the old days psychopaths were rather more valued by society in general, Alexander, Attilla,
Genghis and Hengist were all undoubtably psychopaths back in the day, but such mental pathology is problematic in society. However for those who must practice torture, fortunately there are special clubs just for those who suffer this perversion and wonder of wonders! you'll find the masochists seeking abusers outnumber the "dominants". Military fetishes are also appreciated in the Bd/Sm community as well, you just have to tolerate the homosexuals (because some of 'em are bigger and meanere than you can imagine...). So I won't judge you for your assorted paraphilias, just don't try to institutionalize 'em in the uniformed services. Poor GI's suffer enough as it is without Sadists mucking with their heads.

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from SL wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Dukklr said "And what the heck is wrong with buying an Ar-15 and a thousand rounds of ammo? Some people just like to have cool guns, me included."

Can YOU legally even own a gun? Didn't you tell someone on the the Thomas McIntyre thread about Rush Limbaugh that you were still in high school? I guess one would need to be to have the time to post as much as you do. My only advice would be to put a few years of real living under your belt before you come to any conclusions on the many things you seem to. A few years of real life living can change a persons perspective on things. Being in high school, even with great grades, gives one very little real experience in anything in my opinion. Most young people are idealistic in one way or the other. Some people wake up and smell the coffee as life progresses while others (many examples to be found here) never do! LOL

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

SL - you just have to be 18 to own an AR-15. High school seniors are usually 18. News flash. So, I could legally own a firearm - even though I technically don't since all "my" guns were bought in my Dad's name. So I paid for them, but he owns them since they're registered in his name. But anyway, high school seniors ARE old enough to own AR-15s.

Put a few years under my belt before I come to conclusions? I understand that some of my views are probably going to change over the next 60-70 years that I'm alive, but right now I make my decisions based upon the facts that I do know. You can't just live without having come to conclusions about anything. Thanks for the advice, I understand what you're saying, but I still don't see the need to be under-confident in my decisions just because some people here are 3 times as old as I am ;)

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

From Clays archives of bookmarks, places, information and things to read,

America, Canada , all Europe .....need a President like this

Prime Minister John Howard Australia:
Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.
Quote: 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians'.

'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'. 'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'

'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'

'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'

'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,

'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'

'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'

Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, American citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing the
same truths.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

In violation of the U.S. Constitution?

Where does that say that!

It doesn't dar Pilgrim! :)

"CONGRESS" (not Trijicon) shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or "PROHIBITING" the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I could care less about the New Testament verses. I want to go OLD TESTAMENT on those sorry terrorists and jihadists! Kill 'em all and let God sort out their sorry asses. That's my story and I'm sticking to it...

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from hal herring wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Well, I don't like political correctness, either.

But I do know something about the Sepoy Rebellion of 1857, when 200,000 native Hindu and Muslim troops rose up to attack the 40,000 troops of the British East India Company. The leaders of the insurgency against the Brits had spread the rumor that the new cartridges for the 1853 Enfields that were issued to the native troops were greased with either a) pig fat, which Muslims are forbidden to eat, or b)cow tallow, from cattle that the Hindu troops consider sacred.

Since a shooter had to bite the end off the cartridge before putting it in the rifle, both the Muslims and the Hindu troops were being commanded to contaminate themselves spiritually by a bunch of infidels.

The Brits fought like wild men. The oddly designed Le Mat revolver probably killed more insurgents in that war than it ever would again. 100s of thousands of fighetrs and non-combatants died, as the rebellion spread across
the sub-continent. By the end of the year, the rebellion was almost crushed, but things were never going to be the same.

You do see what I'm getting at? For us to ask our Muslim allies- and we do have them, and we can't win it without them- to shoot other Muslims, on our orders, with rifle sights inscribed with verses from the Christian Bible?

That is the equivalent of the pig and cow fat, a gift of propaganda that just keeps on giving to our enemies.

We are trying to win wars here, friends. Trijicon has every right to put Biblical references on their sights. They can paint full portraits of the Pope on them for all I care. Just don't expect the US govt to buy them and put them to use. Please don't let your religious proselytizing cost our US soldiers their lives.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Ya ‘know, I'm getting fed up with these linguini spined individuals who cower at the slightest change of wind! They call themselves Somethingarather American or better put, a hyphenated American. For me I am a proud American willing to give my life for it, just happen to be a white male of European decent and believing Jesus Christ is my Lord and savior.

For those who say and believe in the separation of Church and State, you need to go back to school and to understand and to know the truth in the history of this great Country!

And to whom I offend?
GET OVER IT!

+13 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

To Mike Diehl: Thanks for the comment. I am all for coming out on top in both wars, but the fact is that we could print verses from the Koran on our scopes and it would not make one iota of difference to the people we are fighting. Our mere existence is offensive to them.

Censoring Trijicon is extreme, 100-proof, chickens**t political correctness. It has probably cost the people at Trijicon a lot of pain. They meant no harm; they were simply trying to do a little good in the world according to their lights.

The invoking of God is almost universal among armies, and goes back ten centuries or more. It has not seemed to have won any battles, just as this prime example of chickens**t political correctness will make no difference to the outcome of our two current wars.

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from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

In the words of a popular southern radio morning show character. "My big old butt..." Since when does government interfere with free enterprise? Oh... sorry... Upon taking a second glance I am mistaken... Looks like government now runs most of our free enterprise business...

+13 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

It's interesting to know how many people truly do not know the history of the United States. When you listen to the News or reading the Daily Rag, do you believe it to be fact or is it slanted to sale and make ratings to the public? I know firsthand if someone doesn’t slant the article to sale or tells the truth, they are out of a job.
For those who use and believe the coined term “The Separation of Church and State” shows just how ignorant one can get. The original 13 States, each State had the right of choice of Religion not for 12 States telling that State what Religion it will follow. That is where and referencing to Congress of the United States that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or "PROHIBITING" the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

If you’re going to believe and to push the term “The Separation of Church and State”, THAT “BS” STOPS HERE!

Welcome to America!
Don't like it?
Then go back to were ever your roots came from!

What was that?

O' I remember now!

Your Village called and they said they don't want there idiot back!

Sorry, just had to toss that in there for a good chuckle, even if it's probably true!

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Oh my aching ache! Political correctness must be imposed upon a major manufacturer of hardware, used to kill folks with! obummer, the TOTUS, the ghosts of his Marxist mentors, and that coterie of leftists in the White House must be having a victory celebration about now, since the one about the Massachusetts election was suddenly canceled.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Boy, you never see Mike diehel anywhere accept for when something comes up against christians and he is almost always for it. Let me tell you something Diehl separation of Church and state was only put in place to prevent a state run church and yes America was founded on Biblical princaples. Don't even try and pass off that hogwash, it is a bald faced lie that the far left has been teaching in government schools for decades.

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Speakin of Grumpy ol' Gun Nutz

Drafting Guys over 60----this is funny & obviously written by a Former Soldier-

New Direction for any war: Send Service Vets over 60!

I am over 60 and the Armed Forces thinks I'm too old to track down terrorists. You can't be older than 42 to join the military. They've got the whole thing ass-backwards. Instead of sending 18-year olds off to fight, they ought to take us old guys. You shouldn't be able to join a military unit until you're at least 35.

For starters: Researchers say 18-year-olds think about sex every 10 seconds. Old guys only think about sex a couple of times a day, leaving us more than 28,000 additional seconds per day to concentrate on the enemy.

Young guys haven't lived long enough to be cranky, and a cranky soldier is a dangerous soldier. 'My back hurts! I can't sleep. I'm tired and hungry.' We are impatient and maybe letting us kill some asshole that desperately deserves it will make us feel better and shut us up for a while.

An 18-year-old doesn't even like to get up before 10 a.m. Old guys always get up early to pee so what the hell. Besides, like I said, 'I'm tired and can't sleep,' and since I'm already up, I may as well be up killing some fanatical s-of-a-b....

If captured we couldn't spill the beans because we'd forget where we put them. In fact, name, rank, and serial number would be a real brainteaser.

Boot camp would be easier for old guys. We're used to getting screamed and yelled at and we're used to soft food. We've also developed an appreciation for guns. We've been using them for years as an excuse to get out of the house, away from the screaming and yelling.

They could lighten up on the obstacle course however. I've been in combat and didn't see a single 20-foot wall with rope hanging over the side, nor did I ever do any push ups after completing basic training.

Actually, the running part is kind of a waste of energy, too. I've
never seen anyone outrun a bullet.

An 18-year-old has the whole world ahead of him. He's still learning to shave, to start up a conversation with a pretty girl. He still hasn't figured out that a baseball cap has a brim to shade his eyes, not the back of his head.

These are all great reasons to keep our kids at home to learn a little more about life before sending them off into harm's way.

Let us old guys track down those dirty rotten coward terrorists. The last thing an enemy would want to see is a couple of million pissed off old farts with attitudes and automatic weapons who know that their best years are already behind them.

(How about recruiting women over 50 with PMS??? You think men have attitudes...ohhhhhhhhhhhh my God!!! If nothing else, put us on border patrol....we will have it secured the first night.)

Share this with your senior friends. It's purposely in big type so
they can read it.

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I had known about this(the verse inscriptions) for a while, but isn't it odd that the story comes to a head under Barack Hussein Obama's tenure as teleprompter-in-chief?

Don't look at me, look at them. My left hand, not my right hand. Classic 'blame somebody else for something' story.

An F-bomb would be appropriate right about here....

+10 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Red Skelton said it best!

http://www.poofcat.com/july.html

I

me, an individual, a committee of one.

Pledge

dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self pity.

Allegiance

my love and my devotion.

To the flag

our standard, Old Glory, a symbol of freedom. Wherever

she waves, there's respect because your loyalty has given

her a dignity that shouts freedom is everybody's job!

United

that means that we have all come together.

States

individual communities that have united into 48 great states.

Forty-eight individual communities with pride and dignity and

purpose; all divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to

a common purpose, and that's love for country.

And to the republic

a state in which sovereign power is

invested in representatives chosen by the

people to govern. And government is the people

and it's from the people to the leaders, not from

the leaders to the people.

For which it stands, one nation

one nation, meaning "so

blessed by God"

Indivisible

incapable of being divided.

With liberty

which is freedom -- the right of power to live one's

own life without threats, fear or some sort of

retaliation.

And Justice

the principle or quality of dealing fairly with others.

For all

which means, boys and girls, it's as much your

country as it is mine.

***~~**~~***

Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country

and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance...

UNDER GOD

Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said

that is a prayer

and that would be eliminated from schools too?

God Bless America!

+9 Good Comment? | | Report
from buckhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

My understanding is that it's not the servicemen who are upset with the very small religious sign on the scope but the Iraqi Police who are given the weapons. In which case it is not an issue of religion and state but more an issue of of appeasing an allie whom has very strong religious convictions.

+9 Good Comment? | | Report
from Shaky wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I was fortunate enough to have a crusty old Army drill Sgt. as my mentor/trainer when I became interested in shooting. He could throw the most energetic screaming fits and use the most insulting language of anyone I have ever known or even heard of. He was a WW11 vet, I mean a down in the trenches, mod. 12 with 00 buck vet. What I am saying here, is this man saw action up close and very personal, and had the ribbons and scars to prove it.
Once, we were camping and a plane came over quite low and woke both of us up. I sat up in my sleeping bag and he grabbed me and threw me down, covered me with my sleeping bag and laid down on top of the bag. All the time screaming total nonsense about being bombed. Well, we were both wide awake in a very short time, and he was embarassed by the flashback, and wanted to talk a bit. The one thing that I will always remember that he said in yhe next hour was "sonny this is fact;there are no atheists in a foxhole, when death comes aknocking ALL men call on The Almighty because reason tells them they are about to meet Him face to face and they don"t want to be a stranger".
My favorite pastor said many years ago "Don't tell me how the man lived. I'd rather know how he died,because that's how he will face eternity".
Just a thought.

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from 86Ram wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I don't typically reapeat myself but this needs to be re stated IMHO it is from a similar post(same subject) in message boards:

It’s something blown out of proprtion by the liberal media and people that overreact to anything that is not politically correct.
We can't talk about the bible, civil war or even talk about muslim extremism, guantanamo bay or illegal immigrants in the US without someones panties gettin tied in a bunch.
You can't even talk about 9-11 and how fast it's footage was taken off the air for fear of reprisals and hatred generated towards the muslims.
However the TSA can put US Soldiers on an extremist watch list and Reliions other than the muslim religion can be put down and dragged thru the mud.
Coddling the enemy that wants to kill you does not make it your friend. It's like paying a bully not to beat you up.
The political correctness, the high morality I'm better than you arrogance is an eye sore and a blight on this country.
We did not win 2 World Wars / Saving France, Britain, Russia, China (Flying Tigers, the Hump, Burma)by being politically correct. We did not get our independance from tyrants being politically correct.
We did not win the Cold War being Politically correct.
We did not build this nations industry and agriculture and economy by being politically correct.
That is why we are FREE NATION and not subjects to a crown or a territory of another country.
Now that we have softened, Now that we're so worried about what everyone else thinks who knows what lies in store.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Anyone know where I can find a good engraver to put a verse on Old Ugly's scope? John 3:16 comes to mind, or a passage out of the 23rd Psalm...

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

This thread, Petzal's comment, and the follow ons, are wrong in too many ways to list them all. So I'll just dump on Dave. By now he may be used to it.

Whether or not you think deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan are just wars or just boondoggles, you're probably interested in seeing the US win, or at least walk away without leaving the place too much worse for the wear. Unless, of course, you're Osama bin Targeted, in which case you want to make the whole thing a big propaganda victory concerning the Islamsits versus the Crusdaders. So, setting aside the predictable assertion that god only loves christians, WHOSE STRATEGIC INTEREST IS SERVED BY PUTTING NEW TESTAMANT STUFF ON SIGHTS? If you want the US to win, it would seem to be a bad move to provide evidence to the bad guys that the US deployment really is about proselytization rather than offing stateless thugs.

Quite apart from that, anyone who imagines the US was created as a "Christian nation" is incorrect. Try reading the United States Constitution some time. The only place you'll find reference to a deity of any kind is on the signature page, wherein, following the convention of the day, the date is given as "In the year of our lord, 1783." If the Constitutional Congress had meant for the Constitution to invoke the 10 Commandments, then the Constition would have invoked the 10 Commandments, &c.

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from JD wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I would venture to guess that you who agree with this philosophy to banish the "evil" religious inscription do not want to handle any US dollars then?? OMG, lookie there what it says! Gasp and egads! Please forward those evil bills directly to me forthwith (grin)

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from hengst wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Mr. Cooper...outstanding agree 110% thanks

I personally am sick and absolutely (inseert the bomb) tired of political correctness. I would like to meet the donkeys behind that even started the hell raising about the verses on my acog. As 86ram and myself have stated their is nothing wrong with a little faith at the right time I know for a fact that it saved my bacon alot. The biggest problem is some "fine person" discovered a well known fact and figured they could stir up a hornets nest and garner some attention. i have yet to meet a Soldier that gave a damn about the scriptures , most liked it. Some poor fool decided to run to Martin Bashir of ABC news and gripe again I say MArtin Bashir of ABC news....How about I am tired of a handfull of people and their views shaping and changing what our nation was founded on and forcing me to keep my views silent...Furthermore I say put the 10 commandments back in the courthouse and Indivisable UNDER GOD...is great to say before school starts. I, my family, my kids and my grandkids are andwill always be patriots.

Sorry for the rant but.....

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from SL wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

It doesn't dar Pilgrim! :)
"CONGRESS" (not Trijicon) shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or "PROHIBITING" the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Well, technically you are correct, but since the government did BUY these from Trijicon, they are now government property with religious inscriptions on them. I have no doubt some of you would have problems with Islamic text on American equipment, yet if Trijicon could get away with this why couldn't someone else with some other religious inscriptions??

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

IowaGuy - for someone who claims to know US history, you should know that "separation of church and state" is nowhere in the first amendment...or in the Constitution at all. That phrase was first coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to a Baptist church over 9 years after the Constitution was written.

Plus, right after they passed the Constitution, the US Government also passed the Northwest Ordinance of 1787, which spoke out in favor of education for the "spread of Christianity". The US Government, whom you claimed was in favor of separation between church and state, passed a bill that spoke out explicitly in favor of Christianity. They also let churches use Federal buildings to hold services, and they used Federal funds on numerous occasions to print Bibles for distribution. They were in favor of religion, just not an official US denomination (i.e. proclaiming that the US is officially a Methodist nation). Get your facts straight.

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from RobertBlogger wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Part of the constitution is, freedom of religion, believe what you may. You're not going to offend me.

www.gunsellers.com

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

davidpetzal

For those who have studied for example, George Washington will take issue with you whether or not invoking God into Battles has or hasn't won any battles.

I find the life of George Washington quite intriguing!

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Dave, I read Sunday that the Marines were going to approach Trijicon about the removal of the "Pass the ammunition" printed on their scopes, BS. I can't believe they caved.
Mike Diehl, did you ever hear of 'Esprit De Corp'? I went in service in '71 and I needed all American and CHRISTIAN support I could get. If there is a Muslim in our military who doesn't like it, tough. Oh yea there was one recently and by coddling him look what it got us.
Sorry Mike, I'm not a high minded intellect just a blue collar grunt who knows our boys in the military needs every advantage they can get psychological though it may be. JMO

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from SL wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

" I would venture to guess that you who agree with this philosophy to banish the "evil" religious inscription do not want to handle any US dollars then?? OMG, lookie there what it says! Gasp and egads! Please forward those evil bills directly to me forthwith (grin)"

What GOD are they talking about on the dollar bill?? Is it the christian one, the jewish one, some eight armed hindu god maybe? Whole different ballgame than bible versus put on a scope made by a devout christian on government property. I myself could care less whether these scopes are scrapped or not from military use, only pointing out that if you give one religion a free pass on this, the others may soon be allowed to follow, and I think some of you would then be singing a different tune, in fact I know you would.

+7 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

In these politically correct times?

TRULY BS!!

"The political machine triumphs because it is a united minority acting against a divided majority."
-Will Durant

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I wish I had a penny for every person this year alone who got duped into believing what's on TV, Rags and what some person said about this Nation believing it was true!

Wana have some fun!

Chalenge a Liberal to prove their point, flat out hold them to the subject. They will try their best to shift the subject, ignore the facts and when those two fail, they go into name calling and watch them do a melt down is great!!!

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from Carney wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Atheism is a worldview. Secular humanism is a religion. Our culture wasn't founded so solidly on either of these inadequate, teetering, crumbling pillars.

"Political correctness" is not about resisting an intertwined "church" and State. It is about a cultural revolution and rejection of history and good ideas. The thought police have captured the legislatures, the courts and the executive offices making the freedoms that our forefathers secured and our fathers protected a thing of the past.

Trijicon is the best at what they do. Perhaps it was the Biblical business principles and overt honoring of the God of the universe that secured such blessing for them. Even if they deny the faith of the company's founder, the blessing will continue for a while -- but not forever. It would be wise for our nation to recognize the same reality.

If I was CEO, I'd be focusing R&D on micro stamping!

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Well said, Coop!

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

SL-
I doubt there is any question about what God the Founders refered to. "We hold these truths to be self evident....."

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

"Is conformity of sentiments in matters of religion essential to the happiness of civil government? Not at all. Government has no more to do with the religious opinions of men than it has with the principles of the mathematics. Let every man speak freely without fear--maintain the principles that he believes--worship according to his own faith, either one God, three Gods, no God, or twenty Gods; and let government protect him in so doing, i.e., see that he meets with no personal abuse or loss of property for his religious opinions." -- John Leland (who was, btw, a Baptist minister)

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

By the way the phrase " praise the Lord and pass the ammo" came from the attack on Pearl Harbor December 7th 1941 7:05 am. When the japs came flying in there was a church service being conducted on the beach. The Chaplain grabbed a machine gun from a nearby nest and mounted it on his pulpit. He then started shooting down Japanese zeros and generally doing what Americans are known for doing. In the darkest hour and gravest danger Americans do what is necessary.

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

political correctness can most certainly ruin the outcome of a war if the government keeps putting more and more regulations on how a soldier must fight, when, where and how he can kill the enemy. I say let the soldiers do what they have to do to win the bloody war, war is hell not a competition to see who has the nicest army.

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from Edward J. Palumbo wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

In our government's efforts to suppress all religious references, to ingratiate itself with other cultures, to apologize for our "excesses" in war and peace, we are losing our national identity. We reject the moral compasses we embraced in the past and opt for a situational ethic, but we forget that the situation will change and our motives and justifications will have to change to remain current. In the span of a generation, we have witnessed a deterioration of the nationalism that propelled us through the sacrifices and challenges we met in the past. Doubt it? Look around you when the national anthem is played at sports events and observe what 40+ years of "political correctness" has done for us. In the effort to develop cultural maturity, we've seen the erosion of our commitment to the Judeo-Christian principles and commandments upon which our justice system was based. Arguably, we have the best justice system that money can buy and that is a great source of frustration to many law enforcement officers. We continue to strive for stability and what is best for the greatest number of people, while addressing the demands of every special interest group. Step by step, we've seen a compromise of a corporate commitment to quality in the pursuit of profit.
I served as a U.S. Marine in South Viet Nam in 1966-67 and I last wore the uniform as a reservist in 1986. You cannot convince me that the Marine Corps or Army is distressed by New Testament references on any product they carry into battle. This "distress" originates higher in the chain of command, and it is political, not military.
I love my country, but my government concerns me deeply.

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from JCB wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

If they had written "Allah Akbar" and radical Islamic verses on the side of the scope they would have gotten a promtion and sent to Ft. Hood.

This PC stuff makes me sick. No one has any guts any more to tell the ninnys were to go.

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I know where I'm getting my next scope!
AKX

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

SO MUCH TO SAY....SO LITTLE TIME TO SAY IT!Here it goes;
Trijicon still makes a darn good sight, and our government is still Full of shi*.
No surprizes here.

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from burnettjv wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I was very thankful to have a Trijicon ACOG or (RCO) as it is referred to in the Marine Corps on my M16-A4 while I served in Fallujah, Iraq. I vaguely remember noticing the inscription on my RCO but never gave it a second thought. The fact that the government is willing to deprive our soldiers and Marines on the ground a vital and excellent piece of gear because someone just noticed that it happens to have an inscription on it is rediculous. I guarantee that 90% of people that are carrying them have never noticed the inscription in the first place. Its not like Trijicon recently decided to sneak the scripture on their products, they have been there from the very beginning. I know for a fact the Marines have been issuing them to infantrymen for at least 7 years now and the Army has probably had them longer than that, and suddenly its a problem. I say that if Marines or soldiers dont want to have the Trijicon on their rifle, then take it off and put your iron sights back on! Believe me the bad guys hate us no matter what! Tiny inscriptions are on our combat troops riflescopes are the least of their worries.

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from 86Ram wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

richardf
first of all WE ARE NOT KILLERS! That is a blatant and outright INSULT!

WE are the US MIlitary Soldiers, Marines, Sailors and Airmen.

We do a job only 1% of this country is willing to do.
We protect and DEFEND this great Nation, the Constitution and Everyone in it SELFLESSLY! and as VOLUNTEERS!

We are asked to leave our families for months and years at a time!
We are asked to do leave our families, Sacrifice our lives at any given time to ensure our Nation and her Citizens and their Rights and Freedoms are protected.

We did not ask for this war. But we will do our jobs!

The least you can do is show some RESPECT! Alot of Families have loved ones that never came home defending your sorry a$$ and some of the others on here I think they know who they are, and thos Families of the Fallen and the Wounded Warriors and those in Harms way deserve that respect as well!

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from 86Ram wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

To all of the Vets that were Drafted I have the utmost respect for y'all as well. I wasn't trying to be one sided. You served with honor as well. Thank you!

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from jlamar wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

kind of surprised to hear complaints from our servicemen. I understand Trijicon needs their military contract. I'm glad to hear their not changing their civilian products.

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from square_peg wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

When our military excursions are ill-conceived it's the politicians, not the soldiers who have erred. And the politicians have made some whopper-big errors.

Soldiers serve out of the desire to give to their country. It's a noble thing and they deserve our respect. Those who serve honorably deserve our gratitude.

And those who serve should be equipped as best we can for their success. And if this means removing Bible verses from scopes then it's a small inconvenience for the increased success of their mission.

This really isn't worth getting all worked up over.

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

How does that song go?

Where have all my Heroes gone!

We need another John Wayne and another Ronald Reagen in the White House!!!

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Clay Cooper-
Ask not what obummer says, observe what obummer does. His lies, last night, were too numerous to count, and his disconnect from We the People was obvious. He sounded like he was trying to deliver a bad college lecture.

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

"The Founding Fathers saw this, and they used it when they structured our government into a Republic."

By that logic, the Constitution was baded on Iroquois political organization, since the founders mentioned THAT too. And more primarily on the Magna Carta. So welcome to the Republic founded on English law (which derives from a blend of Saxon law and Roman law with a twist of Renaissence libertarian enlightenment), Iroquois governance, atheism, and also the bible. Kinda makes it NOT founded on the bible then.

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from jamesti wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

it's the one who claims to have no faith that will be the first to pray when the sh*t hits the fan!

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from nc30-06 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Focus, I for one don't see why you got down votes.
In the "more bs from Bella" column,I agree with you that "God" can refer to anyone's "God". As for the comment about "though shall not kill", you are dead wrong. That means you should not kill for greed, lust, money (greed), etc. It does not mean you should not kill in a war where you are defending your country, or a person, or (in the military at least) property. The first example, refers to murder. The second refers to defense, period. Yeah, there might be some who, in the military have the metality that they get to "kill" and get a thrill from it. They are sick and belong in the first group.
Lastly, Trijicon is one excellent scope. I only wish I could afford one or two. They have every right to imprint what they want to on them. Buyers have every right not to buy them. Political correctness be damned.

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Wasn't "front toward enemy" from the bible?

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from smokey0347 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I have to go along with Clay Cooper. You chose this country, we didn't choose you. This is America. Speak English or go home!! This 'Dial 1 for English is BS. Read the Laws for immigration. It says you MUST learn to speak English prior to becoming a citizen.
As for Trijicon, I am truly bummed out that our 'so called' Commander in Chief doesn't believe in our own Constitution and the separation of Church and State. But, then again, what can you expect from a 'wanna-be Christian'? (Read that as Muslim or any way you feel)

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

In nam we had a good paraphrase on the 23rd Psalm (David BTW wrote the original.

Yea tho I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I shall fear no evil.

For I am the Meanest B*stard in the Valley!

1/7th Cavalry "Garry Owen!"

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from SL wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Dukklr said "And what the heck is wrong with buying an Ar-15 and a thousand rounds of ammo? Some people just like to have cool guns, me included."

Can YOU legally even own a gun? Didn't you tell someone on the the Thomas McIntyre thread about Rush Limbaugh that you were still in high school? I guess one would need to be to have the time to post as much as you do. My only advice would be to put a few years of real living under your belt before you come to any conclusions on the many things you seem to. A few years of real life living can change a persons perspective on things. Being in high school, even with great grades, gives one very little real experience in anything in my opinion. Most young people are idealistic in one way or the other. Some people wake up and smell the coffee as life progresses while others (many examples to be found here) never do! LOL

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from 86Ram wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Waht a disservice to an Faith based American Company and Family. This Family and Company supports the Military and this Nation by providing some of the best optics they can so that our Warfighters can tactically and technically engage and defeat an enemy that not only fights our military but constantly tries to anthreatens to harm our citizens within the US borders and overseas, and yet this is how the liberall, politically correct morons thank them.

I'm glad I'm politically UNcorrect. I support this company & am glad they chose to put a scripture on their optics for family tradition, strong faith and devotion as well as maybe an inspiration to a Member of our Military that may need it when stuff hits the fan. God Bless tem.

The Military had they saw this as a problem could've ordered the optics to a milspec without the scripture.

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from WhitetailHunter706 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

(The Bomb)Political Correctness. The hell with the people who have a problem with freedom of religion, and freedom of speech. Read the first ammendment. Its a private company they have the right to say anything they want on their scopes. And another thing it isnt millitary service men complaining... as the old saying goes "there are no atheists in fox holes". well there you go and a +1 to everyone that agrees

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from IowaGuy wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Mike Diehl & hal herring you are correct!

Also dog tags have religion for another reason; in case of WIA or KIA for spiritual counsel or last rites per your particular religious beliefs be it Methodist, Jewish, Hindu, Islam, Church of CHrist, Atheist, Wicca, Mormon, what ever. Headstones for the same reason to respect the individuals religious beliefs and freedom.

Imagine if the supplier was a Hindu and was putting their religious quotes on the scopes, many of the posters would be screaming about it.

Sep. of church and state

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from square_peg wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Dukkiller, I'm just going by what was reported in the Marine Corps Times.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2010/01/military_optics_012109w/

"Marine Corps officials said in a statement Tuesday they were “aware of the issue and concerned with how this may be perceived,” and said they planned to meet with Trijicon."

If the Marine Corps believes the scopes are detrimental to the mission then I'll accept that their concerns have some merit.

Semper Fi!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Beekeeper +1 for you SIR!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

SL

You do have a valid point Sir, same goes believing Gays should not be in the Military for the Religious Regions they must go.

The sword cuts both ways!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

crm3006 GOOD IDEA! and a +1!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

AlaskanExile

it's interesting how you skip thru a subject and shoot from the hip.

That was a direct quote from Red Skelton!

A -1 for you for failure to actually read and to understand what was actually said!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

HEY WAM!

Looks like a BAR FIGHT BREWING!

My Great Great Grandfather had it right,

A Colt 6 shooter in one hand and a Bible in the other!

A Methodist Preacher and a Sheriff in Oklahoma many moons ago!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

A scant 2 years ago, men at our church took up a collection (not in church, but one to one) to buy one of our sons an ACOG or whatever they are called because he was headed to Iraq for his 3rd tour and the Corps did not provide those sights at the time. Money well spent since he is back safe and sound. The equipment we had in the last counterinsurgency op was crap in hindsight and the Marines always operated with gear 10 years behind the Army.

So if the inscription is not in the Mil Spec, it should not be there. However there is so much commerical off the shelf (COTS) stuff being procured these days, I'm sure that is the reason for the snafu. Take a deep breath and don't sweat the small stuff.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Hey guys,

There are a few folks on here that will not be swayed or intimidated by ranting and raving and insults. Mike Diehl is one of them. Agree or not, you aren't going to compromise him banging on your keyboard. Present a thoughtful position and he will agree or disagree, ususally no more or no less.

But start name calling or hurling insults, and it's game on! crm3006 and I have been flamed by some self righteous morons and what did they resort to? Calling our wives names! What a joke! As if that makes them right. Cut out the personal insults and the tit for tat. Everyone will be better for it.

Mike I still like reading your posts! you haven't insulted my wife or dog yet! LOL And I personally don't put much stock in whether you served or not, but I respect the men and women I served with in two armed services for 22 1/2 years. All but the first 2 by choice!

respectfully,
WMH

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Come to think of it, I can't recall any wars started by soldiers. There have been incidents sparked by the inappropriate actions of military members, but only the Congress can declare war and the President, or Teleprompter in one's absence, has limited authority to send troops, etc. without consulting Congress. Last time I checked, 'We the People' elected those clowns for better or worse. Think about THAT next time you punch a chad.

The women and men who serve our national interests are all volunteers since the draft ended over 30 years ago.

As for Trijicon scopes or any other stuff, I'm all for anything to help "Arrange the Meeting" of the jihadists and terrorists with the one true God of the universe. You and I will meet him one day ourselves.

WMH

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Amen on the John Leland quote. I don't need government telling me how to do anything regarding faith. You see how well they do with the powers that they have usurped already....

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Hold on, fellas!

Bella has not "boasted" of her service in the past. She has told us on several occasions that she served in the Air Force. I think she even joked about the "Air Farce". If you don't agree with her sometimes wacky (my description) religious beliefs, witness your faith but don't hurl personal insults.

She is one of us, on the left side of the aisle so to speak, but a member of our Blog nonetheless.

Just my opinion of course............

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 8 weeks ago

By golly, you're right! A bus ride to Fort Benning, Georgia is what a lot of our whippersnappers need! Didn't hurt me one bit, well maybe a little bit....

I can sit back and talk the talk now because for 22 years, I walked the walk!

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Don't know why you say anything about the Northwest Ordinance. It doesn't use the word "god" or "christ" or "christian" or "christianity." There is one occurrence of the word Lord in the conventional "In the year of our lord" phrase that occurs in such documents of the day. There is ONE use of the word religion, in Article 3.

"Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged."

Which is exactly the sort of thing you'd expect from a bunch of Enlightenment period deists who DIDN'T want to explicitly hog tie the Constitution to a particular religion.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

And here, for example, is James Madison at the Constitutional Convention (recorded by Rufus King) in which Madison explicitly states that various states have NO common religion. The context was an objection to proportional representation would favor populous states (like Virginia and Massachusetts) over less populous ones and that these might conspire to trammel the liberties of less populous states by means of common cause. In the debate, Madison points out that the states have nothing in common by which they would want to do that and Madison specifically states that they have no common religion:

"Madison-The Gentlemen opposed to a Representation founded upon the number of Citizens of the respective States, are somewhat inaccurate in their observations-They speak of Tyranny and of the small States being swallowed up by the large ones-They apprehend combinations between Mass. Penn. & Virginia against the other States. **But there is nothing in Religion, manners, modes of thinking or Habits of any sort, manufactures or course of Business, commerce or natural Productions which would create a common interest or Prejudice between these States exclusive of all others.** There is no fact in the history of men or nations that authorizes such a Jealousy. England and France might have combined to divide America. The great States of Greece, Athens & Sparta, which were members of the Amphictionic League never combined to oppress their co- estates-instead thereof, they were Rivals and fought each other. The greater Cantons of the Helvetic Union, did not combine against the small Cantons; no such combination has existed in the Union of the Netherlands. Instead of Combination, the great States of Germany have often been at war with each other-These are not only Historical Facts, but they proceed from a Law of Nature that governs men and Nations, which are but aggregates of men. When men or Nations are strong and equal they become Rivals and Jealousy prevents their Union."

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

The John Adams quote was in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, 23 August 1787.

"They didn't "run" away from it, I don't know why you keep saying that without any shred of evidence."

Madison and others served as secretaries. These aren't personal diaries. They're the minutes of the Constitutional conferees in Congress. They document not only what people said, but also mundane things such as points of order, motions, times of adjournment, status of deliberations and so forth.

I keep saying it because it is true. The conferees made numerous references to all manner of ancient and historical political institutions. Athens. Rome. The German states. The Iroquois. The Magna Carta. Reason. Logic. Governance by the will of the people.

There isn't ONE SINGLE INVOCATION of the bible as being the source of the Constitution. Not one single statement that the Constitution is based or even loosely conceived of as being in the slightest based on the bible or christianity. Not a single instance of anyone asserting that the US is a Christian nation. Not Even One Word.

The claim that the US is a Christian nation, was founded as such, based on the bible, or any other such flummery is a wholesale fantastical fabrication. It is a concoction of relatively recent political wags of a Christian Nationalist bent who either don't know anything about the founding fathers, or don't WANT to know anything about them, and who have dispensed with the reasonable and natural suspicion of religious influences on governance espoused by the vast majority of constitutional conferees, in favor of a politically useful lie in an effort to alter the state of our republic from a nosectarian secular democratic republic and turn it into an autocratic theocracy.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

"Any explanation for him?"

Yeah. He didn't understand the constitution.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

John Jay's idea of Christianity was Anglicanism. John Jay thought that Catholics and Baptists should be banned from public office. Is that the John Jay Constitutional Scholar to whom you would turn to derive our form of government?

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

As for Church vs US. Have you even READ that decision? It says not one damb thing about the US being a christian nation. It's a very technical opinion about the constitutionality of a congressional act that forbids any institution in the US from hiring someone overseas and bringing them to the United States to fulfill a contract. This was a common practice at the time. The diocese of Santa Fe imported a French architect specifically to design their cathedral (and then moved him to Tucson, later, for the same purpose there). If anything, Church vs US reinforces separation of Church and State because it finds that the Congress can't prevent a church from hiring an alien for a contract.

http://supreme.justia.com/us/143/457/case.html

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

"Suppose, in the Congress that passed this act, some member had offered a bill which in terms declared that if any Roman Catholic church in this country should contract with Cardinal Manning to come to this country and enter into its service as pastor and priest, or any Episcopal church should enter into a like contract with Canon Farrar, or any Baptist church should make similar arrangements with Rev. Mr. Spurgeon, or any Jewish synagogue with some eminent rabbi, such contract should be adjudged unlawful and void, and the church making it be subject to prosecution and punishment. Can it be believed that it would have received a minute of approving thought or a single vote? Yet it is contended that such was, in effect, the meaning of this statute."

In short, the USSJC finds that Congress can't tell Jews, Catholics, Episcopalians, or anyone else, not to hire someone on account of their faith. If that decision upheld the US as a "Christian" nation, the common practice of discrimination against Jews would have been found to be quite constitutionally correct, rather than explicitly prohibited.

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from jamesti wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

shaky, good call on that one. dukkillr, for a guy with that name, you're pretty frickin smart! a +1 on that one. you know, we all won't agree on everything here but what you can count on is conviction from all of us in our beliefs. if the antis read half of the stuff posted on just this post, they will know they are dealing with some pretty intellegent people and probably get scared. if we can just dispense with insults and agree to disagree, all will be good. you guys made me realize how little i know by some of what you wrote. in the end, we are all on the same side and have a right to our beliefs. great post dave, way to start things. we count on you for that. you da man! that being said, IMHO, if you don't like what's on your scope, no matter how great it works, build your own f***ing scope! make mine a trijicon!

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from Bella wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Yea Mike! Atta way to tell 'em.
It is touching to see so many conservatives so motivated by morality, all the more interesting considering the blatant immorality of those they choose as leaders, Such as those who twisted the law to allow themselves to torture, invade nations without just cause, deprive thousands of their constitutional rights and pillage the economy for their own benefit. Perhaps with a greater emphasis on personal morality such as Yeshua (Jesus) taught we can get through our national crisis together. I have always believed that morality begins with the individual, that he (or she) who is without sin should cast the first stone. I believe that honesty begins with the individual as well, and if the individuals who make up organizations were honest and fair then in theory the organizations themselves should be honest and fair as well.
I have however observed that people are rarely interested in honesty or fairness unless they have been lied to or cheated. In most interactions most people seem to seek personal advantage rather than to offer fair dealing, which has an inherent dishonesty attached. However that is Capitalism which hold profit taking as it's highest ideal as opposed to the Socialism so often reviled that puts the needs of the people in the community as the highest ideal.
No wonder "conservatives" gripe about paying their taxes, even though the Savior they so often refer to admonished his followers to "render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's". Plainly conservatives are acting out the Capitalist ideal and seeking to receive the privileges of membership in society without paying their due, skating their responsibilities and objecting to the societies commitment to care for it's less fortunate members. Whenever I talk to conservatives on issues of fairness or equality it always winds up demonstrating that any coin toss is fair as long as they win it. They have attempted to redefine so many things according to political expediency, claiming the very mantle of patriotism only for themselves. But it ain't so Joe.
The very notion suggested that there could be an Amewrican Republic without democratic elections is itself unpatriotic, as Democracy is as enshrined in the Constitution as is the Bicameral system of Representation in Congress. If you are a patriot, then you support the Constitution, If you dislike Democracy because it gives "those people over there" a vote too, then you are no patriot, but something else.
The specious claim that our Constitution is somehow based on Christian principles is another attempt by antidemocratic elements to subvert our secular society. The claim that persons who support the secular nature of our governance are somehow anti religious is as much a lie as claiming only conservatives are patriots. The lies get shouted again and again asa if shouting the lies would make them true. But then we are back to this issue of personal morality again. Yeshua rejected hegemony and did not seek to govern his followers during his ministry, but told them to "love one another, as I have loved you". As I have written in other threads, you can tell the Real Christians by what they do, how much they give of themselves for God and others, not how loudly they yell divisive dogmas or how frequently they judge others.
So "christians" how goes it with the objecting to taxation and the ammassing of arsenals and all. Jesus telling you guys to do all that? Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition ain't in the Bible you know, or are you guys trying to psyche yourselves up to go and exterminate the Bethelites or something?

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from Bella wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

I made it to E-4, I never claimed to be a heroine, I was just there, feet in the yellow mud helping to load bombs and missiles on F-4 D & Es. I was just a kid art the time, so no, I didn't have a lot of skills or knowlege at the time, but like other teenagers I thought I did at the time. Asia was a strong dose of reality for me at the time. I didn't have anybody shooting at me, but anybody who has to handle tons of high explosive, solid rocket motors, thermal generators and other such pyrotechnicks undergoes risk. My claim to fame is that I have "died" for my country more than anybody I know, because when I got to Korea they didn't issue the prescription lens inserts for the M17A1 gas mask so I was benched every time the Air raid siren went off, cause I couldn't see outa the mask! So they always need a few simulated casualties and this was usually my duty, such as it was, playing dead for the 8th Tac and the USA. Eventually they did get me the lens inserts, but they were badly designed and tended to rattle around inside the mask.
If you don't believe me when I say I served, it isn't as if I'm gonna go find you and wave my honorable discharge and my DD214 in your face.
I always tell young people they should enlist, just to be careful not to get screwed by the Recruiter. Go see the Elephant. The Military helped make me the ornery person I am today and I salute all you cussed opinionated types out there even if I disagree with you on some political issues. Get out there and Shoot Something!

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from Bella wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

My state Masterbachusetts was definitely founded by christians, that is by Puritans. Puritans were highly motivated to create a society for Puritans and nobody but nobody else. Toleration in the Massachusetts Bay Colony was nonexistant and they'd pillory you for having too much to drink and fine you if you weren't in church on Sunday. They'd hang you if somebody thought you were (Gasp!) a Witch. They put the Nipmunks and Wampanoags in some of the worlds first concentration camps and "converted" them at gunpoint. They Hung Quakers too and hung one guy for celebrating Christmas. Hundreds were massacred in King Philips War that followed, English at Deerfield and Wampanoag at "the Great Swamp Fight". Intolerance inevitably brought warfare. Sometime through the 18th and 19th centuries Puritanical New England did an about face, largely through the influence of people like Emerson and Thoreau. But we remember, the history of how things were under Puritan Theocracy is in every local history book, back in the day when they named towns things like "Whipsufferage" (present day Marlboro, Mass.). My point is Christian Theocracy has been done, and it was tyrannical. It wasn't a good idea. I can understand why a certain sort of "christian" might like to have that kind of power over other peoples lives, but that doesn't mean the rest of us should let em have it without objections. That road has been traveled before, in my own community about 300 years ago and it is history that doesn't bear repeating.

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from nc30-06 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

If logic followed the political correctnes insanity, then removing Bible quotes and replacing them with quotes from radical muslim dogma would stop all fighting huh? How absurd.
Oh, and by the way Mike, the American serviceman throughout history has fought, been maimed, suffered and yep, even died to give protection, and rights to all of us, even you whether you want to admit it or not. You don't speaking German do you?

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from nc30-06 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

86ram, your posts are dead on in every respect. The first one was so good. All up votes.
Mike, who gives you the right to judge our military for fighting in all the places you are so against? Oh yeah, it was our military. And, just to clarify the matter, the military itself did not go to all these places on their own, they were sent by our presidents and congress.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Deihl, you have never been in a fox hole so don't pretend like you know jack about what you are talking about.

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from wingshooter54 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Wow, Dave; what a hornet's nest of rhetoric and opinions you have stirred up! Well, opinions are like a**holes; everybody has one. Here's mine - If I put my money and my sweat into a product and business and wanted to put an inscription on it (whether it was religious or not) I would damn well do so. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Evidently it is a well made product or the US military wouldn't use it. If they don't like the inscription,then cover it up, grind it off, paint over it, etc. since once they BUY it, it belongs to them. Trijicon is not owned by the US Govt. (not yet, anyway) Now, if all I cared about was profit and making tons of money, then a**kissing the govt. and being politically correct would take precedence over my personal convictions and beliefs. But, what do I know about business? I'm just an educator.
One can't help but wonder why no employee of Trijicon has complained to the prostitute national press about the inscriptions.
Maybe they are just good, hardworking Americans.

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from Gunslinger wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

The mfger should tell whom-evercame up with this brainey Idea to got to Hell that they will print what-ever the public wants and buys. I'm tired of some called Athitist teling me what I can and canot do or say or buy. If was in market for a scope, would buy one of these in AM.

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from Zermoid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

The whole thing is BULL.
If you were to hand me a FREE weapon, FREE Optics, and FREE Ammo to use as long as needed I wouldn't give a Rat's A$$ if it had "I blew Osama Bin Laden" written on it!
If it bothers you so friggin' badly cover it up with some paint or duct tape and quite whinning over it. Or better yet git off your lazy azz and go buy your own, non marked brand of sight.

Until then SHUT UP!

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from Sharkfin wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Where in the Constitution does is say anyone has the right to not be offended? This is still ONE NATION, UNDER GOD! Sadly, I'm just not so sure we're indivisible anymore.

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from Bubba Squirrel wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Dave, you failed to mention one of the most amazing (IMHO) aspects of this comedy. When the big discovery was made and the news broke, all the media reports said the Bible verse designations on the sights were "coded references." How nefarious!

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from Jeff Bowers wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I have no problem carrying such a sight on my weapon.

If I am torqued at anyone, it would be the "concerned individual" who opened his mouth. I don't think the troops cared, and the Iraqi Police wouldn't have put it together by themselves.

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from hal herring wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

kudukid,
Washington Post, today
U.S. military teams, intelligence deeply involved in aiding Yemen on strikes
U.S. military teams and intelligence agencies are deeply involved in secret joint operations with Yemeni troops who in the past six weeks have killed scores of people, among them six of 15 top leaders of a regional al-Qaeda affiliate, according to senior administration officials.
- By Dana Priest

Afghan Army
Various Afghan clan leaders fighting al-queda
Iraqi Army
Some Somalian clan leaders
Saudi Security forces
Some Paki army units fighting in the border regions

These folks are mostly Muslim. That is what I was referring to. Warfare is not the movie Shane, where a single man without allies cleans up the town and makes sure that good triumphs over evil.
thanks.

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from LutherMartin1517 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

And I didn't even know the Taliban could read!

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from JD wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Mr. Petzal, Just a note to say "thank you" to you and Phil for the excellent coverage of the 2010 SHOT Show, best of any website I found! (I searched quite a few, btw) Both of you men kept it lively and informative. Thank you!!

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming....

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from JD wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

God bless you Coop, great posts!!

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I willounded say this, I saw many "athiests" who all of a sudden Found dA Lawd when they thought they were gonna die within minutes!

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 9 weeks ago

Rabbit,

I was trying (badly I admit) to make the point that So Called "Christians" On the order Of Martin Luther,Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggert,Pat Robertson,Many of the Popes, Many R.C. and Anglican Priests and other denominations, who have all stated that Jews who will not compromise their principles and convert are bound to hell.

This made possible The Inquisition in the Middle ages,
The Holocaust in the 30's and 40's, the Arab-Isreali wars in '48,'56'67'73 and the present fighting. Also the threat by Iran of Nuclear Strikes.

I have been a target for 69 years for propaganda,personal attacks, threats, insults and have always defended myself successfully.

I rarely comment about this sort of thing online but this has gone on long enough, its time to put this thread to rest. Enough said on ALL sides.

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from hmcidc99 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I was a Hospitalcorpsman (Doc) with the marines and part of our Combat issue was a Red Cross we were supposed to wear on our upper left arm in a combat situation. We called it a target and promptly threw them away. My point being is that I saw the the scopes and the numbers and letters are a lot harder to see. I have to disagree with statements made that it is the presidents fault. Let's not forget the good old ACLU weenies.

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from hengst wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Sl

Good point but fact is the government and in particular the Army can be extremely hypocritical when it comes to religious beliefs and this stems from the nasty political correctness....Don't want to change the topic but see Ft Hood and the history behind the handling of Nidal Malik Hasan...I have seen similar things myself so it is by no means isolated..but ohh now they want to crackdown ...truly interesting

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from SL wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

You all have converted me, God Bless America!! Only in America can we have the christian crowd arguing how this nation should be more christian and God fearing on the same webpage with a photo gallery of booth babes down at the bottom. America at its finest and weirdest all on the same page! Who I consider the finest or weirdest I won't elaborate on.

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

To Hal Herring:

"For us to ask our Muslim allies- and we do have them, and we can't win it without them- to shoot other Muslims, on our orders, with rifle sights inscribed with verses from the Christian Bible?"

Please tell all of us who exactly are these Muslim "allies" and why they are Muslim religous states.

Perhaps you would do well to read both the Quran and the Hadith before telling anyone anything about Islam and Muslims.

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

SL:

Why is it necessary to say "Christian" when referring to the values this country was founded upon? This country of ours has many outstanding values and if you sincerely disagree with those values, freedom of movement and speech for instance, then why come here or why stay?

To be a Christian (Capitalized please) doesn't mean putting up a Christmas tree. In outward form it means attempting to live as Christ directed. If they were "raping and murdering" then the people you refer to were simply not Christians.

Attending a congregation of a Christian denomination doesn't make anyone a Christian either. Nor does engraving a particular faith on a dog tag or on a telescopic sight for that matter.

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

BTW for all concerned:

Since this issue stemmed from the idea of Bible verses offending Muslims (on Trijicon scopes), I give you the following showing that Muslims offended by Bible verses don't even know their own Quran...

The Quran praises both Mary and Jesus and the New Testament. How then are Bible verses on telescope sights offensive to any Muslims?

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I'm back! Anyway, Diehl, Thomas Jefferson wasn't even in the Constitutional Congress, he was an ambassador to France (I think it was France) at the time. When he wrote that letter, many delegates of the CC started screaming bloody murder (such as John Adams.)

The "God" that the Founders referred to was the Christian God, as is evident to anyone who examines some of their writings. When Benjamin Franklin proposed prayer before each session at the Constitutional Convention, he was proposing prayer to the Christian God, not any other God.

The Constitutional Convention was NEVER in favor of "separation of church and state". That phrase was coined by a non-Christian who was not even a delegate. FYI, Thomas Jefferson himself regretted ever using that phrase and essentially "took it back" in the later years of his life.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Just a few things - I totally agree with the John Adams quote about "abuses of grief", it is pretty sickening to look back and see all the persecution of Jews and other religious groups that occurred because such-and-such religious sect accused another of being responsible for the death of Christ. Grief can be good (when it's genuine) but definitely not when abused.

The Jefferson quote was in a letter to the Emerson Baptists.

The James Madison quote...yes, of course we don't want a state religion, no problems there...

Thomas Paine was an atheist, that quote was no surprise.

John Leland - right on, no way should the government try to make everyone "conform" to the "sentiments of religion". Nice quotes!

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Whoa whoa whoa, dude, calm down! It's one thing to disagree with a person, but it's another thing to accuse them of something as serious as that without any evidence. Can we please return this discussion to a more civil level?

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 9 weeks ago

Vladimir Lenin, Founder of the Russian Communist Party: "The goal of socialism is communism."

Nuff said.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 9 weeks ago

As for the rest...no, socialists don't always want to take our guns away. Take Switzerland, for example: the most gun friendly country on earth is also a socialist nation. Liberals want to take our guns away, not socialists (I'm talking as a group, of course there are some socialist governments that do.)

I am (on behalf of this nation) rather insulted that you compare the French Revolution to the American War for Independence. The French totally lost control and "executed" anyone who was denounced by anyone, in contrast to the actual war American fought against uniformed British troops. No way are they the same thing.

It seems that you have conviently forgotten that the Democrats have controlled Congress from 2006-on. They were the ones in charge who screwed up everything (in league with the moderate Republicans), not the conservatives.

A Public Option would screw the US economy (again), and would dramatically reduce the quality of US healthcare. Show me a country with free healthcare that has better quality healthcare than the US. It doesn't exist.

Your view of Christianity is also screwed. The Bible says "Blessed are the poor, for they shall inherit the kingdom of God." Anyway, the fact remains that over 60% of Americans DO NOT want a public option, so I have no idea why the liberals keep trying to shove it down our throats. What happened to your illusions of liberals being in favor "democracy" and the "popular vote"? Public options don't work and they never have.

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from dukkillr wrote 4 years 9 weeks ago

From the October 1996 Update of the DSA 'New Party':
"New Party members are busy knocking on doors, hammering down lawn signs, and phoning voters to support NP candidates this fall. Here are some of our key races...

Illinois: Three NP-members won Democratic primaries last Spring and face off against Republican opponents on election day: Danny Davis (U.S. House), Barack Obama (State Senate) and Patricia Martin (Cook County Judiciary)."

Interesting. In case you are wondering what the "New Party" is, here you go: "The 'New Party' was a political party established by the Democratic Socialists of America (the DSA) to push forth the socialist principles of the DSA by focusing on winnable elections at a local level and spreading the Socialist movement upwards."

Still say he isn't a socialist?

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from 86Ram wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

This is directed towards some of the posts I've read

Bella, Deihl you two I swear feed off of each other and are the most synical and obnoxious know it alls I've ever seen.
Neither of you have served in the military and you take every opportunity to badger any positive comments towards a Christian or their beliefs.

Those ACOGS inscriptions or not are a tool that works and keeps us in the fight on top of the fight and on target. The inscriptions DO NOT hinder our combat effectiveness.

They know we are non Muslims..They could care less. We get briefed on how to interract and We are told to be respectful of their culture and their religion.
The enemy is the one with their panties in a bunch.

You've probably never had to put cross hairs, iron sights or a red dot on anyone. It takes alot to do that. And some people to draw on their religious beliefs. God forgive Soldiers for their actions that is in the Bible.
Also stated in the Bible that God has sent men to war to smite cities that were not living up to his expectations.

When the pucker factor kicks in and the bullets fly or that bird is comin in to come get you or get you there you bet your a$$ someone is praying and someone is thanking God in their own way.

I think this company has a right to put an inscription on its optics. The military could've once again ordered them without the inscription. But it was no big deal until someone got butt hurt and decided to make a fuss

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from 86Ram wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

First of all I could care less what the enemy feels towards our religious freedom.
All I know is that I would rather they feared us and either lost the will to fight or were overwhelmed by superior firepower and taken out of the fight permanently.

We cannot win a war with political correctness.
We are the best military in the world and we should fight without our hands tied by BS and with the best equipment available to us inscription or no inscription.

It meets our mission needs leave it alone.

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from 86Ram wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

nc30.06 Thank you...

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from square_peg wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

There is a feeling among many Muslims that westerners are in their countries as 'Crusaders'. There is a history of westerners coming to their lands bearing weapons covered with Christian symbolism.

Seeing Christian symbolism on the weapons of the current westerners in their countries can't help but re-ignite their passions against the original crusaders.

If our goal was to simply kill every man woman and child in those countries and take their resources for our own then it wouldn't matter how we went about it. But if our goal is create democracies which are friendly to the United States of America then we need to be a little more careful how we go about things.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

O'by the way Dave!

Thanks for stirring the pot again!!

Good for the cardiovascular system! LOL!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Anyone remember this one

“When tyranny hits the fan and the 'Firearms Control Section Gestapo' stops by to confiscate your firearms, do the right thing...give'em the ammunition first.”

-the Tucson (Arizona) Rifle Club newsletter, 1999-Sep

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

“America is at that awkward stage; it's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.”
-Claire Wolfe, 1995-Nov

“This country is a one-party country. Half of it is called Republican and half is called Democrat. It doesn't make any difference. All the really good ideas belong to the Libertarians.”
-Hugh Downs, 1997 (not really true, but the point is worth hearing)

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

“Everything I did in life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.”

-former U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Did you listen to "The Anointed One Obama" and the 1st Amendment? Ripped into the Supreme Court and basically said, overseas entities can run ads and express an opinion in reelections. How farther than the truth can he get! Obama showed what kind of a blithering idiot he really is! And he flipped flopped on energy and it sounded like Governor Sarah Palin and GOD BLESS THAT WOMAN! was going to be his next energy Czar!

From Clays archives of bookmarks, places, information and things to read,

“And do not forget the petty scoundrels in this regime; note their names, so that none will go free! They should not find it possible, having had their part in these abominable crimes, at the last minute to rally to another flag and then act as if nothing had happened!”
-From the fourth leaflet of the White Rose Resistance in Germany, 1942. Five students and a professor who wrote and distributed the leaflets were executed in 1943.

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from MLH wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Aren't those letters and numbers part of the serial/model numbers?

Just wait until they figure out that there are subtle symbols embedded in the shapes and textures of the actual products themselves ... from makers other than Trijicon.

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from MLH wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

If it is not obvious, I am just invoking a bit of sarcastic paranoia. Don't go looking. Like in the search for the witches in Salem, one finds what one's looking for.

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from Douglas wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I am going to buy a trijicon scope as soon as I have to $$. Just because.
Amen

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"INCOMING" !

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Yeah, the 88 car was also driven by Buck Baker, Benny Parsons, Donnie Allison ( who I know personally), Dale Jarrett, Darrel Waltrip (DW), Rusty Wallace, Bobby Allison (know him too), Larry Pearson, Buddy Baker, and several more in addition to Dale Jr.

I guess I should put a "12" on my tag since that was a number most often used by NASCAR's Alabama Gang - Allison brothers, Davey Allison, Neil Bonnett, and Hut Stricklin.

Lighten up fellas, it's Friday!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 9 weeks ago

Hey Bella

We used to have a line in the Airborne to silence the usual anti-war folks encountered on an airplane or in an airport or other public place. Invariably they would ask if you had been to Vietnam and the next question would be: "How many people did you kill?" , usually with a smirk or great sarcasm or disgust.

The standard answer was "That depends".

"Depends on what?", they would ask.

"Depends on whether you count pregnant women as one or two!" was the standard answer that usually shut them up.

Crude, yet effective1 LMAO

regards,
WMH

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

However, until recentely, most had the Ten Commandments.
Kinda removes all doubt, there, doesen't it?

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Moishe-
That paraphrase survived into the '70s, with some additions. I wish I could remember all of it, it was the unofficial motto of the 173rd. Abn. Bde.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

wingshooter54-
Very well said ,Sir. All I would add is: Amen!

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

dukkillr-
Correct you are, Sir. Dale Jr. is currently in 25th place in the standings.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

"Censoring Trijicon is extreme, 100-proof, chickens**t political correctness."

It would be, I think, if someone were demanding that Trijicon not put verses on any sights they sell, civilian or otherwise. The argument's deep. But with respect, sir, we can't afford now to think like we did through Viet Nam, that force projection is the only part of the battlefield. In the information age, propaganda is an even more important part of the battlefield than it used to be. Avoiding handing people OBVIOUS propaganda victories seems to me to be less about chickens**t and more about good basic maintenance. It should be pretty obvious that since the enemy wants to make the whole thing "A War Against A Religion" that planting your religion all over your weapons of war that are used against people who near universally are adherents to a different faith is not such a brilliant idea.

There's plenty of chickencrap that the Fed Govt does, that leftists do, and yes that rightwingers do too. But this instance doesn't seem like it to me. And would evangelicals be so quick tocry "political correctness" if the quotations were verses from the Koran, or from the Talmud, or one of the Veddas? I doubt it.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Patrick Henry was pretty much the only voice claiming that the gov't was founded on Christian principles. As for the Declaration, it makes no reference to Christianity, only a Creator, and several references to Natural Law. Religion per se is never mentioned even once in the Declaration. It also stipulates that governments derive their power from the consent of the governed; this is a marked departure from the then nearly universal assumption that governments derived their power from god.

Beyond that, the DoI is not our form of governance. It is primarily a listing of the offenses of King George's government against the colonists. Offenses against the *colonists* not against god, and violations of principles of human rights derived from *natural law* not christian teachings.

The Constitution is our form of government. The Constitutional congress conferees RAN, not walked, away from the idea of stating ANY christian principles in the US Constitution. They did so because they knew that you can't protect indviduals' freedom of religion without keeping the government free from religious dogma.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

John Adams had some pretty concise things to say about it:

Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813, quoted from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.
-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D Cardiff, What Great Men Think of Religion, quoted from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed, The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

What more to say, Yes, there were some monday morning quarterbacks trying to criticise the rules. But the plain fact remains this. The overwhelming majority of Constitutional conferees RAN, not walked, away from proclaiming the US to be founded on the bible, founded on christian teachings, or to be a christian nation.

Read Madison's notes from the constitutional congress. Of what do we read? Classical Rome and Athens, the reformation, enlightenment, of the tyrranny of religious dogma, of the models of the British system in the Magna Carta and of the Iroquois confederacy. Not a single christian principle is espoused in the Constitution. Jefferson stepped all over Patrick Henry's head in debates leading up to the ratification of the Virginia constitution, when Henry tried to make christian teaching the premise of Virginia state law.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Idduck - John Jay argued unsuccessfully to have Catholics banned from holding office in NY.

"The Founders refused to have a public record maintained, these are just Madison's private notes."

That just is not correct. Madison was THE SECRETARY for the Constitutional Convention. It was his offical task to take notes. On the days when he could not or was active in the debate, others were appointed to take notes.

"I understand that there are no direct Biblical references in the Constitution, but you are being purposefully naive in claiming that it is the only document upon which the United States is founded. And you are being naive in claiming that this means that the founders were in favor of separation of church and state."

That is just baloney. Pure, unmitigated baloney. Basically, your argument is that the numerous remarks during and after the constitutional convention by many of the conferees that EXPLICITLY mandate a separation of church and state "don't count." That is, for you they're not evidence. At the same time, the complete ABSENCE of any reference to the Bible or Christianity in the Constitution is proof of the all-pervasiveness of Christian dogma in the Constitution, apparently. And even though Patrick Henry was unable to have ANY such sentiment inserted into the text of the Constitution -- which would tell any reasonably objective rational person that the congress didn't want such text included -- your position that his opinion and one or two others is sufficient to make the claim, despite the fact that the prime movers (whom you would dismiss outright) in the Constitutional Congress explicitly stated that the nation was NOT founded on Christian dogma.

There's neither facts nor reason behind your position in this matter.

Here is further reading for you. Not only did the United States Constitution separate Church and state, but many of the principle founders of the Constitution did in drafting state constitutions ALSO separate church and state in the state constitutions. Patrick Henry tried his nonsense in Virginia and so annoyed the Presbyterians that Madison and Jefferson reaanimated a bit of text called a "bill for religious freedom" that completely and explicitly separated church and state in Virginia.

Idduck, someone has fed you a cartload of dogmatic horsehocky. The United States is not now, never was, and never was intended to be a Christian nation. Nothing in our form of governance was derived from the bible. The absence of evidence of any Christian dogma or biblical text in the Constitution does not prove that we live in a Christian nation. Frankly, such convoluted logic leaves me astonished.

http://www.archives.gov/nhprc/annotation/march-2002/religion-founding-fa...

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 9 weeks ago

Sometimes you just have to get silly. Or as Hunter S. Thomson once said, "When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn pro." ;)

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 9 weeks ago

By the way, it's strange to hear you invoke 2000 years of Christianity and then identify Roman Catholicism as something other than Christianity. If there's any such thing as "real christians" and "fake christians," from my scientific, unbiased, non-partisan ('cause I'm a pagan and think you're full of beans, with respect to matters of cosmology and such), the Catholics seem like the real thing. Not the charisma cultists of the modern neoevangelical movement.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 9 weeks ago

Of course at my age, the likelihood of being drafted is pretty remote. ;)

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from jamesti wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

pray to who you want. pray for the destruction of a people, and you are a terrorist and deserve wrath.

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from Bella wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Oh and 86ram I am a veteran, I got out of the USAF with an honorable discharge back in 1979 and I served with the 8th TAC at Kunsan AFB in the ROK as well as in other places. You should be thanking ME for my service. I enlisted when it wasn't popular and I never got any medals or significant rank, but I served, which is more than some of the barking dogs out there can say.

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from Bella wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Oh and Ducky, I ain't a victim, I is a survivor and yes I have seen some very hard and hungry times in years past, however comfortable I am today. I study martial arts because I have seen too much violence and I will not be a victim if I can maintain Sanchin (awareness of surroundings). No my intent is although I have suffered in the past the next goon who tries to take advantage of me will be the victim, not me.
But this is one of the lessons I learned from the Military life. Train hard in peace, because when war comes you won't have time to refine your skills, you'll need mastery of what you know without thinking about it.
I've survived some bad things, I ain't going into 'em, I'll just say the 80's were a rough decade for me, and the carnage I've witnessed makes me opinionated. Yes I am a Feminist! Why shouldn't I be. Life has not grown me into any fainting lily, I've grown as tough and twisted as the poisonous Mountain Laurel that grows in my woods. You likely only want women around who simper and agree with you on everything, but I'm already married so tough luck! I don't have to agree with any of you if I don't, and I have no interest in being any sex symbol either. I post here because like you guys, I like guns, they make me feel warm and gooshy inside. I like to make big booms and large clouds of smoke and have fun. I like to fish and hunt when I have time and I see no reason why my feminist attitudes should exclude me, much less why I should be concerned about the attitudes of wet behind the ears teenagers who ain't hardly been outa their own backyards and think to tell old ladies like me what for.

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from Bella wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Ducky, the Puritans would have thought you pagan. You call yourself a "christian" and so did they. I would suggest that you are a poor example of Christianity yourself, considering some of the unjust and irrelevant things you include under the label of Christianity. The Puritans were an excellent example of what "christian" fundamentalists would impose if we put 'em in charge again. Also I would suggest that whatever you think about the Puritans, They were convinced they were the Most Christan people on the planet. The fact that you think they were a poor example of Christianity is of little relevance, you don't get to be the one who decides who a "christian" or not. You ain't even a dim shadow of Cotton Mather. Tell old Cotton's ghost how you think the Puritans weren't Christians why don't you! HAW Haw Haw! (you funny Ducky, you do stand up?)
Whenever Christians are presented with historical bad behavior perpetrated by other Christians, the first move they make is to say "well they weren't REALLY Christians, they just thought they were". Well that is a shoe you wear as well as the Puritans! You can bet yer bippie that N number of years from now the Fundamentalist Christians that plague us so will be universally reveiled just as Cromwell wound up with his head exhumed and stuck on a pike. From Lord Protector to a trophy on London Bridge in less than a century. Isn't revisionist history wonderful? Just what are you planning to revise next? The Counsel of Nicea?

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from Bella wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Gee was St. Olaf a "Christian" Ducky? Have any idea how many that particular "Saint" slaughtered personally to convert Norway by force? Is there any difference betwixt "christians" who use violence to "convert" people and Muslims who do the same? If it smells like a pig, grunts like a pig and looks like a pig, It Must Be a Pig!
Likely according to Ducky in the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre the were no christians at all involved on either side!

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from nc30-06 wrote 4 years 9 weeks ago

Bella, I have agreed with some of your comments in the past, but you saying Obama is not a socialist is complete bs. Your last few posts are full of bs. So are most if not all of Mike's. We are up against a LIBERAL, socialist agenda with a so-called president who IS a socialist and is doing everything in his power to ruin and take down the country he evidently hates. Argue with that, but list anything he has done that has been good for America.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

hey Diehl, go and watch this video and be ashamed of yourself. Here is a man who knows what he is talking about. Robert Howard received the Medal of Honor for actions done in Vietnam. If you don't like Christians don't watch it.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Diehl, you sir a complete and total disgrace. You should be thanking Moishe for his service and for defending your right to openly disgrace him, his unit, the military and the Country that he served.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Any man who does not appreciate what American soldier have done for our freedom and feels no gratitude or thankfulness for what has been accomplished is a little man indeed.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I already explained that my name has no negative connotations whatsoever. You keep trying to pin something on me, it won't stick. All you are doing is proving my points and making yourself look like a fool, and a proud on at that.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I hold American soldiers in very high esteem because I am very grateful for their service to this country. You see I understand the sacrifice that so many have given for my freedom and that humbles me. I will always stand up for the American soldier, they have enough to worry about fighting the enemy without having to fight their own country men too.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Diehl, you truly are delusional.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Oh, I assure you I do exist and do vote every time I get the chance. So I will tell my uncle who was a vietnam vet, both my grandfathers, three of my cousins, three of my uncles, my mother and grandmother that their service was a total wast of time and totally unessecary because Mike Diehl has just said so. Two of my cousins are in the Army, one is Afghanistan and one that has been to Iraq three times. They are both brave men that have seen action and one has taken a bullet in the leg and chose to stay and keep fighting. I would love for you to tell half of the stuff that just came out of your mouth to any American soldier and watch him shell your teeth out.

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

01/2000
John Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States

[I]t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401, to Zabdiel Adams on June 21, 1776.)

[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, and Co. 1854), Vol. IX, p. 229, October 11, 1798.)

The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1851), Vol. VI, p. 9.)

John Quincy Adams

Sixth President of the United States

The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code; it contained many statutes . . . of universal application-laws essential to the existence of men in society, and most of which have been enacted by every nation which ever professed any code of laws.

(Source: John Quincy Adams, Letters of John Quincy Adams, to His Son, on the Bible and Its Teachings (Auburn: James M. Alden, 1850), p. 61.)

There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy.

(Source: John Quincy Adams, Letters of John Quincy Adams to His Son on the Bible and Its Teachings (Auburn: James M. Alden, 1850), pp. 22-23.)

Samuel Adams

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.

(Source: William V. Wells, The Life and Public Service of Samuel Adams (Boston: Little, Brown, & Co., 1865), Vol. I, p. 22, quoting from a political essay by Samuel Adams published in The Public Advertiser, 1749.)

Fisher Ames

Framer of the First Amendment

Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers.

(Source: Fisher Ames, An Oration on the Sublime Virtues of General George Washington (Boston: Young & Minns, 1800), p. 23.)

Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.

(Source: Bernard C. Steiner, The Life and Correspondence of James McHenry (Cleveland: The Burrows Brothers, 1907), p. 475. In a letter from Charles Carroll to James McHenry of November 4, 1800.)

Oliver Ellsworth

Chief-Justice of the Supreme Court

[T]he primary objects of government are the peace, order, and prosperity of society. . . . To the promotion of these objects, particularly in a republican government, good morals are essential. Institutions for the promotion of good morals are therefore objects of legislative provision and support: and among these . . . religious institutions are eminently useful and important. . . . [T]he legislature, charged with the great interests of the community, may, and ought to countenance, aid and protect religious institutions—institutions wisely calculated to direct men to the performance of all the duties arising from their connection with each other, and to prevent or repress those evils which flow from unrestrained passion.

(Source: Connecticut Courant, June 7, 1802, p. 3, Oliver Ellsworth, to the General Assembly of the State of Connecticut)

Benjamin Franklin

Signer of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence

[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

(Source: Benjamin Franklin, The Writings of Benjamin Franklin, Jared Sparks, editor (Boston: Tappan, Whittemore and Mason, 1840), Vol. X, p. 297, April 17, 1787. )

I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.

(Source: James Madison, The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, Max Farrand, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1911), Vol. I, pp. 450-452, June 28, 1787.)

* For more details on this quote, click here.

Thomas Jefferson

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Third President of the United States

Give up money, give up fame, give up science, give the earth itself and all it contains rather than do an immoral act. And never suppose that in any possible situation, or under any circumstances, it is best for you to do a dishonorable thing, however slightly so it may appear to you. Whenever you are to do a thing, though it can never be known but to yourself, ask yourself how you would act were all the world looking at you, and act accordingly. Encourage all your virtuous dispositions, and exercise them whenever an opportunity arises, being assured that they will gain strength by exercise, as a limb of the body does, and that exercise will make them habitual. From the practice of the purest virtue, you may be assured you will derive the most sublime comforts in every moment of life, and in the moment of death.

(Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, DC: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1903), Vol. 5, pp. 82-83, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr on August 19, 1785.)

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of mankind.

(Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. XV, p. 383.)

I concur with the author in considering the moral precepts of Jesus as more pure, correct, and sublime than those of ancient philosophers.

(Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. X, pp. 376-377. In a letter to Edward Dowse on April 19, 1803.)

Richard Henry Lee

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people.

(Source: Richard Henry Lee, The Letters of Richard Henry Lee, James Curtis Ballagh, editor (New York: The MacMillan Company, 1914), Vol. II, p. 411. In a letter to Colonel Mortin Pickett on March 5, 1786.)

James McHenry

Signer of the Constitution

[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

(Source: Bernard C. Steiner, One Hundred and Ten Years of Bible Society Work in Maryland, 1810-1920 (Maryland Bible Society, 1921), p. 14.)

Jedediah Morse

Patriot and "Father of American Geography"

To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.

(Source: Jedidiah Morse, A Sermon, Exhibiting the Present Dangers and Consequent Duties of the Citizens of the United States of America (Hartford: Hudson and Goodwin, 1799), p. 9.)

William Penn

Founder of Pennsylvania

[I]t is impossible that any people of government should ever prosper, where men render not unto God, that which is God's, as well as to Caesar, that which is Caesar's.

(Source: Fundamental Constitutions of Pennsylvania, 1682. Written by William Penn, founder of the colony of Pennsylvania.)

Pennsylvania Supreme Court

No free government now exists in the world, unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country.

(Source: Pennsylvania Supreme Court, 1824. Updegraph v. Commonwealth; 11 Serg. & R. 393, 406 (Sup.Ct. Penn. 1824).)

Benjamin Rush

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.

(Source: Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical (Philadelphia: Thomas and William Bradford, 1806), p. 8.)

We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism.

(Source: Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical (Philadelphia: Printed by Thomas and William Bradford, 1806), pp. 93-94.)

By renouncing the Bible, philosophers swing from their moorings upon all moral subjects. . . . It is the only correct map of the human heart that ever has been published. . . . All systems of religion, morals, and government not founded upon it [the Bible] must perish, and how consoling the thought, it will not only survive the wreck of these systems but the world itself. "The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." [Matthew 1:18]

(Source: Benjamin Rush, Letters of Benjamin Rush, L. H. Butterfield, editor (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1951), p. 936, to John Adams, January 23, 1807.)

Remember that national crimes require national punishments, and without declaring what punishment awaits this evil, you may venture to assure them that it cannot pass with impunity, unless God shall cease to be just or merciful.

(Source: Benjamin Rush, An Address to the Inhabitants of the British Settlements in America Upon Slave-Keeping (Boston: John Boyles, 1773), p. 30.)

Joseph Story

Supreme Court Justice

Indeed, the right of a society or government to [participate] in matters of religion will hardly be contested by any persons who believe that piety, religion, and morality are intimately connected with the well being of the state and indispensable to the administrations of civil justice. The promulgation of the great doctrines of religion—the being, and attributes, and providence of one Almighty God; the responsibility to Him for all our actions, founded upon moral accountability; a future state of rewards and punishments; the cultivation of all the personal, social, and benevolent virtues—these never can be a matter of indifference in any well-ordered community. It is, indeed, difficult to conceive how any civilized society can well exist without them.

(Source: Joseph Story, A Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1847), p. 260, §442.)

George Washington

"Father of Our Country"

While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support.

(Source: George Washington, The Writings of George Washington, John C. Fitzpatrick, editor (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), Vol. XXX, p. 432 n., from his address to the Synod of the Dutch Reformed Church in North America, October 9, 1789.)

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of man and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice?

And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who, that is a sincere friend to it, can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?

(Source: George Washington, Address of George Washington, President of the United States . . . Preparatory to His Declination (Baltimore: George and Henry S. Keatinge), pp. 22-23. In his Farewell Address to the United States in 1796.)

[T]he [federal] government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, and oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any other despotic or oppressive form so long as there shall remain any virtue in the body of the people.

(Source: George Washington, The Writings of George Washington, John C. Fitzpatrick, editor (Washington: U. S. Government Printing Office, 1939), Vol. XXIX, p. 410. In a letter to Marquis De Lafayette, February 7, 1788.)

* For the full text of Geo. Washington's Farewell Address, click here.

Daniel Webster

Early American Jurist and Senator

[I]f we and our posterity reject religious instruction and authority, violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the political constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us that shall bury all our glory in profound obscurity.

(Source: Daniel Webster, The Writings and Speeches of Daniel Webster (Boston: Little, Brown, & Company, 1903), Vol. XIII, p. 492. From "The Dignity and Importance of History," February 23, 1852.)

Noah Webster

Founding Educator

The most perfect maxims and examples for regulating your social conduct and domestic economy, as well as the best rules of morality and religion, are to be found in the Bible. . . . The moral principles and precepts found in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. These principles and precepts have truth, immutable truth, for their foundation. . . . All the evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. . . . For instruction then in social, religious and civil duties resort to the scriptures for the best precepts.

(Source: Noah Webster, History of the United States, "Advice to the Young" (New Haven: Durrie & Peck, 1832), pp. 338-340, par. 51, 53, 56.)

James Wilson

Signer of the Constitution

Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both.

(Source: James Wilson, The Works of the Honourable James Wilson (Philadelphia: Bronson and Chauncey, 1804), Vol. I, p. 106.)

Robert Winthrop

Former Speaker of the US House of Representatives

Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them or by a power without them; either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or by the bayonet.

(Source: Robert Winthrop, Addresses and Speeches on Various Occasions (Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1852), p. 172 from his "Either by the Bible or the Bayonet.")

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from rabbitpolice88 wrote 4 years 10 weeks ago

Bella, Allow me to be the first to say thank you for your service, I strongly disagree with just about everything you say but I do thank you for serving.

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from JohnR wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Oh boy, I'm not getting into this one!

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from willkillsdeer wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

what a load of B.S all i can say is i all the sudden want a trijicon and i don't suppose "One nation UNDER GOD" would mean any thing of significance?

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Clay;
There's 50 states now, keep up with your current events!

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Clay;
Just giving you a friendly elbow in the ribs, trying to get you riled. I knew that it was a quote. I guess it worked.
AKX

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from blueridge wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Dave,

Thanks for the post. In all the words, one thing is certain among our shooters...we all like a good campfire discussion. And, we all have values...not necessarily the same ones, but values.

I stand with the Good Book...and the Constitution, though they are not the same. I surely respect the other person's right to disagree with me, but I lean more to the tolerant view about Trijicon and free speech. And, Jefferson's remark about the wall of separation has been nudged into law, gradually, by the same supreme court that now justifies limitless lobbying by the wealthy, vested interests.

Nothing stays the same...everyone must stay vigiglent and informed, and try to maintain zero. I love this blog. We are richer, for it.

Blue

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from waterdrinker9 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Political corectness takes the fun out of everything.

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from Mjenkins1 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

There are other optics manufacturers. If you don't like Trijicon's view on things, buy else ware and let that be it. This "political correctness" is driving me crazier.

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from elmer f. wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

well, i for one am saddened by this. freaking government trying to stamp out all traces of religion anyway. what they really want is for us to worship THEM! this is just another step in a long line of things that they are doing in order to take away ALLL of our freedoms! our forefathers were quite religious, and believed in GOD, and thrir beliefs are part of this countries heratage. these elected officials that we have nowdays have caved to almost every little whim that the very few whine about. i would bet that if you asked the solgers that are in harms way, those words have been quite comforting from time to time. especially when about to kick in a door of a house that they know holds alkida or taliban fighters. our "tinkerbell fairy leaders" might just as well and cave in and make learning spanish, chineese, and japaneese as a mandatory requirement for graduation from school. because it wont be all that long before one of them will decide that america is weak enough for them to take us. if only someone with a set of kahuna's would actually run for office, that really did not give a damn about political correctness, to help guide this country back to its former glory. we as a nation, now, are in a pitful state. it is not because of us local people, it is our butt kissing fairies in washington. personally, i subscribe to the "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead" way of thinking. part of what kept us safe as a nation all these years was the fear everyone felt from our militay might and presence. the weak link to this is now in washington.

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from finnyk wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

All I know is that the God I believe in is not only a forgiving God, but a just God. SO; I forgive every soldier who has used a Trijicon to dust off some Muslim, terrorist, radical,(insert any further adjective of your choice) enemy and justly say, "Keep up the good work!" If they want to brag about their 70 virgins, or whatever, and look so forward to meeting them - have at 'em. (I can't figure out why they would complain if that's where they are headed).
Also, if you go beyond the Constitution and read other papers and speeches upon which the founders negotiated the final version, you will see that our country is, indeed, founded upon Christian values and principles. I for one say that is why we still remain the greatest country on the planet, despite the current condition we find ourselves in because of the latest "American Idol" styled vote.

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from JD wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

SL,

That verse was present on the Trijicon sights when the miltary procurement process took place, seems no body objected until recently. If it's a big deal to you, cover it with a piece of electrical tape....

and don't forget to send those dollars my way :-}

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from JD wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Hmmm, Good thing I didn't add an 88 to my handle, seeing as I fancy a Winchester model 88 quite a bit!

Is it ok if I add TGIF! Have a great weekend and keep yer powder dry ;-)

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from Ferber wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

We understand how, perhaps, a handful of American soldiers might object to obscure-appearing biblical references on a secondary piece of equipment. But really, do we have to yield to the Muslum Public Affairs Councel pressuring our field commanders? Who is really in charge of this--and all political correctness, for that matter. Mainly leftist politicians of course, with a lot of help from the ACLU. Four or five years ago I was sitting with the press during a local boxing program. When our National Antham preceded the action in the ring, everyone, of course, rose, right hand over the heart; some veterans saluted. But a pair of muslum men remained sitting...and talking, throughout. While no one objected with words or physical force in Asbury Park's Convention Hall that night, just a few decades ago that scene wouldn't have even been a part of the landscape. I mentioned it in my newspaper column...and, as I had expected, got nary a word of negative mail for it. Effective grass roots response/reaction to such lousy un-American, rude stuff is usually nil. Usually. We just swallow and let it pass. Usually. How magnificent the effective grass roots response to the crazy health care bill!

Political correctness disturbs us big-time. Last week I saw a colored guy lay in to a fat traffic cop who had balked at a cripple helping a blind guy across the street--who was aiming to visit a relative in the nearby looney bin--when the yellow caution light came on. An Oriental woman intervened and tongue-lashed the fatso cop for his bad judgement. (Well, maybe, that's a little much).

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from njones wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

im pretty sure that our constitution also mentions the freedoms of religion and free speech. maybe im wrong. NOT!!! muslims can do anything they want and it be against the constitution to do anything to look at them wrong as they pull an AK-47 out of their turban. are we now communist country to limit what a business can put on their product? especially a country that was founded on the BIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Well Diehl, you finally said something that was true! Congradulations!

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from hmcidc99 wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Sometimes it takes a while for me to get my thoughts together. I was sent on an observer mission to provide medical support for the team I was on. We were unarmed, everyone else had a weapon and took great joy in pointing them at us, firing on our armored vehicles etc. One member of the team was the calmest and didn't drink every night. Many of that team now has problems with PTSD. The Capt. who stayed calm and is as normal as anyone can be who has been threw that Prayed not only for himself but for others. Spirituality is a great thing. Anytime I treated a patient whether it be in sick call, a training accident or a real SHTF incident I would pause and ask for help. The people we try to help ANYWHERE don't want our help and always revert to how it was before we got there unless we keep an occupying force there putting our young men and women in harms way where they will continue to reach for a higher power to keep their sanity.

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from hengst wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

86ram good stuff

Mr. Cooper, Mr Petzal and WA Mtn and Moishe You grumpy old men are great Americans and your views are proof of this thanks for saying it....Sorry if i missed any of the other grumpy old men that are great Americans...

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I'm still waiting anxiously for someone to show me where the term "separation of church and state" can be found in the U.S. Constitution...any help out there?

I understand it appears once in a letter T. Jefferson wrote but so far, to my knowledge, no one has found it in our constitution.

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Mr. Diehl is correct regarding the constitution containing but one reference to God.

What he fails to mention is the reference to "their Creator" several times in the "Unanimous declaration of the thirteen united states of America".

I'll bet y'all thought the document was "The declaration of independence". Go check.

Now, instead of the terribly politically incorrect B.C. and A.D. we have the politically correct B.C.E. and C.E. I feel better already.

Soon to come from this administration - men/women/boys/girls/trans gender public bathrooms...then all will be well.

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

SL:

I am unaware I fit in with a group called "you guys". I spoke on my behalf alone.

I would appreciate it if, when directing discourse at me, you refer to what I said instead of what some obscure "you guys" have said.

I'm well aware of the history of the United States with regard to the people who had migrated here before the Europeans. It is a shameful part of our history exacting a price on the national psyche to this day.

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from kudukid wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Well I got some more name calling...not surprised. I'll bet he has lots more. Brilliant. At least he finally grasped the difference between verses of scripture and location references which, BTW, aren't found in the earliest Bible texts.

For the rest of you coherent folks, what I'm trying to say is that appeasement in any form doesn't work with people who foam at the mouth over a cartoon.

From what I can surmise the extremists, and there are a great many, understand power and nothing else. When things don't go their way they sue for peace until strong enough to attack again. Israel has found this out time and time again. The Israelis are beginning to catch on. We're apparently very slow learners and I give you the Fort Hood debacle as evidence.

You can line up for appeasement; me, I'm getting more ammo!

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from alabamaoutlaw wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

Trijicon is a great product and has saved the lives of a lot of soldiers.It has been incorporated into this rifle platform with great success.The Inventor had religious beliefs that he incorporated into the scope.Which has offered comfort to a lot of american soldiers who were actually in the valley of the shadow of death and feared it.So anything that would assist them in these times is alright by me.If it was me i would be like Black Jack Persing and bring in the swine.

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from alabamaoutlaw wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

The marking or religious symbols on their optics have nothing to do with the morals of our armed forces.These were placed by the inventor of the optics not the soldiers.If it gave the soldiers a little solice during times of turmoil i say give them more.Unless you have been in the situation that one wrong move could end your and everyone around you their life leave it alone.In a firefight the enemy has no idea what stamps are on my weapon.Just keep in mind that anyday we could be dragged into a draft type war and that weapon could be your lifeline.I can hear the c.o.'s right now I don't believe in this war.Heard it all before and the dodgers hiding while the valent stand strong.

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from JHawes wrote 4 years 11 weeks ago

I think the reason for the separation of church and state in the constitution was to relieve citizens of religious persecution and allow them to practice freely. Now it persecutes anybody who shows their religion outside of a church. Its all gone a bit too far in the past decade or so. Its strange that the people who want us to change or eliminate our religious beliefs are the same ones who want you to adopt theirs, but they will never give you the time of day to even explain yours, because to them its all make believe and fairy tales. They are atheist and because they have nothing heavenly to look forward to after they die they would rather make others feel crummy while they scrounge around on this earth.

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