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Job Skills: A Sniper’s Résumé

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December 19, 2011

Job Skills: A Sniper’s Résumé

By David E. Petzal

One of the reasons for the decline and fall of the United States is, I believe, that the Draft was abolished. It had its drawbacks, but it also had a couple of advantages: It required that every able-bodied male serve their country for a while and, since a great many people had military experience as a result, the population as a whole had a pretty good idea of what the military was and did.

Today that’s very far from the case. One percent of our population* is fighting our wars, and there is a growing ignorance about the military and a growing alienation from it in our once-great land.

This was brought to light in an article in the December 18 issue of The New York Times about the growing joblessness among vets. In it, a Ms. Rachel Feldstein, who is Associate Director of a San Diego company called New Directions (which specializes in drug rehab and training for veterans) said the following:

“If you train someone to be a sniper, those skills are not necessarily skills that are transferable.”

This took me aback. If Ms. Feldstein is referring to shooting people, she is quite correct; there are only so many SWAT teams around. However, there are few jobs in the services that require such a diverse blend of abilities as that of sniper, and those abilities would make any potential employer slaver.

Let us review:

A sniper must have superior hand-eye coordination.

A sniper must have limitless patience.

A sniper must be able to absorb large amounts of data and use that data, accurately, under extreme stress.

A sniper must be able to plan meticulously (how to get in alive, do the job, and get out alive.)

A sniper must be able to work in close cooperation with other people (a spotter at least, and as many as four other team members).

A sniper has demonstrated that he can work intensely toward a long-term goal (It ain’t easy to graduate from sniper school, either the Marine or Army version.)

A sniper is physically fit and physically brave.

A sniper is capable of intense concentration for long periods of time under adverse conditions.

If the sniper is E-5 or above, he has advanced leadership skills and very likely ability as an instructor.

A sniper is at home with detail work.

Now, some of these are aptitudes rather than skills, but it seems to me that if a person with this package of talents came to me looking for a job, my only question would be, “When can you start?” There is very little someone like this can’t accomplish.

Possibly, because a fair number of citizens has been brainwashed to think that anyone who has anything to do with guns is nuts, and because the psychotic veteran is a staple of popular entertainment, some potential employers would see “Sniper” on a resume and call Security. Sorry to disappoint them, but snipers are no more nuts than anyone else with a combat-arm MOS. As the then-commandant of the Marine Sniper School once told me,

“We weed out the Rambos, the psychos, and the loners. We want All-American boys who go out and do what we tell them and no more.”

In the meanwhile, let’s not condemn Ms. Feldstein. She’s probably doing Good Work. And she is no more ignorant than the rest of the 300-million-plus Americans who will never wear a uniform.

*I’ve read that out of every 10 people who apply to join the military seven fail to qualify because of poor physical condition, lack of education, or criminal records.

Comments (53)

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from buckhunter wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

The smartest man on the face of the Earth is the E-6.

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Business Card:

Joseph J. Jones, Esq.
Senior Gene Pool Management Specialist

"We whack 'em, You stack 'em"

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Longhunter wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Very interesting subject today. While I never wore a uniform I do have an understanding of the difficulties that service people have obtaining employment. They have many outstanding attributes that would be highly desirable for employers. I worked in a correctional facility in my career and whenever I was asked how do I handle a stressful situation I reply that "if no one is trying to kill you, then you are having a pretty good day." It puts things into perspective. I do disagree with Dave on one point. I do condemn Ms. Feldstein because unlike the rest of the Americans out there she is supposed to be helping the vets with training and job skills. If she is so dense that she can't see the merits of their transferable skills then I humbly believe she should find another line of work.

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from huntnow wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

We can possibly condemn Ms. Feldstein for apparently not knowing a single military veteran. I built bombs, rockets, and countermeasures in the Air Force. Not much of a job market for that either outside the military. However, like the sniper, I learned many other skills including leadership. With the help of the GI Bill, I got out and earned a college degree and am fully employed. I'm not bragging, I know many other vets who have done more than myself and no one owes me a damn thing. The jobless rate is high across the country, Feldstein just wanted to pick on the military as part of her agenda.

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from CL3 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

great article! I hope you sent it off to Ms. Feldstein.

Perhaps you two can work together to enlighten some more Americans.

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from Happy Myles wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I am probably prejudiced, but during fifty years of senior management have had better luck with employees with military background, be it enlisted, draft, NCOs, or officers than Harvard Business School types with no military background. Like I wrote , probably just me, but it worked.

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from Hoski wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Decline and fall of the United States?
Did I miss something? We speaking Chinese now?
One percent of our population is fighting our wars...as opposed to everybody joining so we can have more wars?

Thanks Dave, I appreciate your correlation of the snipers' skills set to the civilian world, and I thank you and all veterans for their service.

Let the dinging begin.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Even in peace time I think that able bodied men and women should serve their country and learn what the term dicipline means and to appreciate the freedoms that we enjoy as an American. I don't advocate war and never have, even though I'm a war veteran, it would just have been as good if I had not. I think that military service just gives a person a different outlook on our great nation and what it took to keep it this way. Our Conservation Officers' effectiveness and committment went downhill when we removed the requirement of military service and started requiring a 4 year college degree. It quit being a profession and starting being a job. Don't jump on me I have college too.

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from bruisedsausage wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

When I got out I found it harder to find a good job then what I thought I would. (never did find a "good" one. LOL) Much of what was included on my resume could only be used by one private employer in the entire CONUS. However it was very specialized and most people can't do it because of the complexity. I slaved away for my relentless employer who could care less about me. So I moved on... It's called the GI Bill, and it's there for a reason. Working on a degree in Environmental Engineering currently and can't wait to be done. =)

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from SD_Whitetail_Hntr wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I haven't served in the US Military and it is truly one of my biggest regrets. I should have done it right out of highschool and then life just happened too fast and it's been impossible for me to leave a good job to join the military now, even for the Guards. I, however, respect the men and women in the armed forces more than words can explain. And I am proud to live the life they have allowed me through their sacrifice. I can recite the Army Values, Warrior's Creed, know the Enlisted and Commissioned rank structure, and probably a lot more than I should for never having been in the Army.. But I know those things simply because I take time to care about what our military is doing for us on a daily basis.

And on a side note, if I ever came across that group of hot sacks of garbage Baptists from Kansas who picket at military funerals, I'd go to prison. Plain and simple. That level of ignorance can only be solved with the business end of 5.56 and I really don't care that I sound like a psycho saying it.

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from ishawooa wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I remember at the end of the movie/book THE PACIFIC after the war was over, one of the main characters was back in civilian life. He was at an employment office and was asked what the Marines had taught him. He replied "They taught me to kill Japs and they are good at what they do". Not exactly an appropriate comment on the sniper resume but you do doubt get the meaning.

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from ishawooa wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

that should read "no doubt", should proof read prior to submitting...

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Bernie wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Dave, as a former Recon Marine I agree with you entirely!

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from 007 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I'm not a vet (my camo hat is off to all of you who are), and Sarge said something that caught my attention, "a different outlook on our great nation and what it took to keep it this way". It makes me sick when I hear these kids today who refuse to vote or don't pay attention to the news and current events because "it doesn't effect me". It might not today or tomorrow, but one day soon, who's sitting in the oval office, who he or she appoints, and the decisions they make will touch your life.

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from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Well, Dave, when I got out back in late 1974, I have to say that it didn't appear to me that the New Modern All-Volunteer Army was doing quite as good a job weeding as you describe. I wound up with a female MP working for me who MAY have weighed 75 lbs dripping wet. And she was mentally unhinged. I could go on. As I stated in another post, the draft was good for the country, good for the military, and good for young men (as far as I know the US never drafted a woman).

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from MNflyfisher wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I recently signed the next 14 years of my life away to the USMC, oorah, probably the greatest decision i've ever made and a very marketable decision. simper fi

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from fliphuntr14 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

ishoowa- great movie series and that line sticks with me to. SDhntr- you don't sound crazy at all those, people are horrible human beings. The military seems to be turning more and more people today. I have asthma but could out run most people in a 2 mile race, military wouldn't have me. Where that door closed the new one i am pursing now opened for me in the field of biology (what i am studying now). I'd like to thank the past present, and future vets, i am envious of many of the skills you guys worked so hard to achieve and thank you for securing me the chance to do what i am doing now.

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from chaslee wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Hell, alot of jobs are task oriented and goal driven. A sniper has one task and will pursue that task to conclusion(goal). My hat goes off to all in uniform. I have a fellow who works for me who was sniper. He is the most discipland employee I know. Glad i'm his bud.

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from nashman wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Some of the least intelligent people I know have spent a lot of time in school, but lets be honest here this lady wasn't just talking about vets. Lots of folks are out of work and the problem isn't because vets are drinking or in rehab and can't get work, the problem is that the government of this great nation has sent most of the work overseas. That is the underlying problem and I bet that if you make more jobs you will have less unemployed vets. If you ask any veteran how they feel about the mess this country is in I think they will tell you that they are just frustrated that the same men who decide where and how the military will go can't make a good descision about anything else. Anyway back to what that lady, Ms. Feldstein said, "If you train someone to be a sniper those skills may not be transferable, but they might be necessary" or something like that.

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from Mark-1 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

-Served with and led during the Draft and in All-Volunteer. I found the All Volunteer’s superior. Sorry, but that’s what I saw.

-Biggest problem now is the Elites somehow believe any vet is somehow tainted and will never be able to live a *normal* life. It was the same way in the Vietnam Era. All vets were Baby Burners. Danger is matters are more subtle now. Vets are declared PTS, or worse, and entered on NICS by VA. Think the number is 400k now.

e.g. VA put 114k vets on NICS for having a fiduciary for their benefits. The Law *required* it. However the 6.7 million SS receptiants having a fiduciary aren’t required to be entered on NICS. Go figure.

DP, you’re fighting a long and loosing battle. Gov’t and the Elites never lose. If they have you rude, crude and socially unacceptable, then you must be by Gov’t decree. They just won't let you see the decree. If you get to see the decree, then you'll find out that the Gov’t and the Elites are wrong and that's patently un-American!!!!

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from ja_demko wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

We'll leave aside the whole idea of whether this country has had a war since, maybe, WWII that was worth the blood and treasure we poured out. Conscription is slavery and always has been.

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from O Garcia wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

It's probably sacrilege to say this, but I think a lot of the misconceptions about snipers stem from the fact that the EXCEPTION among the snipers in Vietnam, Carlos Hathcock, became the rule in the minds of the people, because he was the one whose story was riveting (Spartan way of life, lifetime devotion to USMC, tragic career-ending accident and illness), and then immortalized in book form and then bits and pieces of it subsequently copied by Hollywood (Pvt. Jackson in "Saving Private Ryan", GSgt. Tom Beckett in "Sniper" series). Even the fact that he was a USMC, and therefore, a bolt-action shooter, slanted our perception.

So we think of snipers as carbon copies of Hathcock, men who go out alone in enemy territory, crawling for 3 days w/o food, water or toilet breaks just to get within 700 yards of an NVA general, men who are so driven, so obsessed w/ taking out enemies they had to be grounded in base camp because they're no longer eating proper meals and showering etc.

As some authors on the sniper war in Vietnam have revealed, Hathcock was the only sniper there who went out on missions alone, often for nearly a week at a time. Snipers in Vietnam almost always went out in pairs, and they never ventured beyond the range of their 7 or 9 man support squad. The idea being that if the target proves too large for the two men to take out, the support squad can help. Also, if the sniper team gets compromised, the support squad can help in the escape.

The combined sniper team + support squad never ventured beyond the range of artillery or airstrike support, again same idea as above. The artillery and/or airstrike can either help take out the enemy or prevent the enemy from wiping out the snipers.

(Nowadays, of course, the sniper team consists of an entire squad, basically the two-man team and the support squad of the Vietnam Era combined into a single unit.)

Don't get me wrong, Carlos Hathcock was truly great, not only as a sniper but also as a patriot American, and deserving of his place as the most revered sniper in history along with Simo Hayha (Finland) and Vasily Zaitsev (Russia), but he also effectively skewed our minds with that same greatness. We think all snipers ought to be like him.

Some snipers were/are normal. And yes, some of them, like Army sniper Adelbert Waldron, shot self-loading rifles, and did "one shot-one kill" just fine. (This is a gun blog, so I thought I should add that.)

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from O Garcia wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

BTW, Chuck Mawhinney, a Marine, also used an M21 with starlight scope to take out 16 men of the VC attempting to cross a river. Snipers used whatever served them better. In Mawhinney's case, it was the M21 that night, even though regularly he used the M40.

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from dickgun wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Great serious thought subject.
IF, the universal draft could absorb the cost of all those young people on welfare, drug corners, drug incarcerations, habitual students on grants or loans; and add them to those who can lead them, like those whom we now have trained and fighting,as needed, with a resulting achievement of perhaps a better class of young people who could transfer those skills to daily society; And, the cost benefit could be neutral, the overall benefits could be huge.
On the other hand would we need continuous conflict (war) to occupy the masses - or - how would they be transitioned back into a useful and productive citizen?
WWII did a pretty good job.........

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from Ferber wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Quite right on all counts. The effect of the old 2-year draft provided enlightenment, at the very least, to all able-bodied men. I don't know any veterans who bad-mouth, or diminish the military in other ways, either. No one I know who has served wants to cut the military budget or disuade youngsters from 'joining up'. The draft was in effect when I graduated from college. I enlisted in the navy and applied to OCS. I can truthfully say that any success I've achieved in business--and much of elsewhere--is due, in a very large part, to my military experience.

While the idea of serving in the military to most young people 50 years ago was merely a looming negative...Viet Nam history made the concept worse. My own daughter is a good example. She wanted to be in broadcast media. A communications major in college, she was told at the celebration following the retirement of an Admiral shooting friend,that if she applied to, and successfully completed Officers Candidate School, he would help her in being assigned to the navy's film and broadcast department. 'Helping' her of course, meant a guarantee, and a helluva resume post-navy in civilian life. 'No thanks', said she. "I don't want to be a 'soldier'.

Where the f... are these kids heads? That was 10 years ago. Today they are protesting capitalism, demanding entitlements and crapping on police cars.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from firedog11 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Interesting comments here throughout the postings. I had two brothers who served (I did not)both came back with skills and aptitudes that have served them well. I believe the lady mentioned suffers from what the bulk of the country suffers from, that a college degree is the only proof of intelligence in the universe. When I was assigned to interview new hires for the Fire Dept. many of the military vets I recommended were never hired and in fact a person in HR told me to stop recommending them as the county government didn't want them. I recommended many anyway and shortly after that I was taken out of that job. I must admit and both my brothers confirmed this that in my mind I would want someone having my back to want be there not someone who was told to be there.

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from bluegraytx wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I suggested bringing back the draft a couple of years ago on a rifle-specific user's group web site. I was shocked at the response. Perhaps if they trained with Nintendos and Wii's in boot camp ...?

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from Jim in Mo wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Well thought out response Dave. Wish I had the cognitive or writing ability.

As for the draft. I have mixed emotions.
IMO, I think the draft presents the best men for the military. It's a tougher job for the drill sgt.'s and other educators but the 'best of the best' are within their grasp.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

All of you detractors of military service have my permission to enjoy all your freedoms and spoiled ways....right after you kiss my ass.

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from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Ditto WAM and mine too while they are at it.

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from ja_demko wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Does that include those of us who volunteered for military service but are detractors of conscription?

WRT your ass and the kissing thereof: Where would you even start?

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from RANGERMANZ20 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

As a current Active Duty Member that was a Drill Sgt at Fort Benning, Ga for over 3 years training future Infantrymen, and a Sniper that served in OIF I and OIF II, I see full well everyday the distances between those who have served and those who haven't. After WWII and up to Vietnam most Americans either had served or had a family member who had. But now it is completely reversed. I'm currently serving in Korea, were young peole here have to serve 18 months upon completetion on High School. Most of our fellow NATO members do this, after over 21 years of active service I can tell you the way our youth in America are going today, we need to adopt a system like here in Korea to give them some guidence and a skill set. We would have allot less your people getting into trouble, we would have a stronger more motivated work force and the military would save money on enlistment bonuses, which be saved for mid career Soldiers who chose to stay in. There was an article on Yahoo.com about 1 out of 3 young adults in America will get arrested before age 21, these kids have no guidence or home up bringing. South Korea has one of the lowest crime rates in the world I rest my case, for manditory military services.

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from ITHACASXS wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

We have had enconomic downturns for as long as I can remember. During those ups and many downs the older men in our community lead there families threw them. Many of these men were vets of WW2, Korea or like my dad, between Korea and Viet Nam. They fixed their own plumbing, painted their own porches, fixed our bikes, cut up their own deer,cooked huge breakfasts opening morning(or for supper if ma was sick) and taught us that ''nobody likes a smartass or a whiner'', They could rock babies (lots of them) too. Almost all the men I knew tipped their hats to Uncle Sam for what they learned while in uniform, wether they liked it at the time or not. These men all had titles too, If it wasn't Dad or Uncle, it was Mister. I don't believe we have enough of these men anymore. What have we done?

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from shane wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

"if a person with this package of talents came to me looking for a job, my only question would be, “When can you start?”"

Unfortunately, the skills/aptitudes you list above don't fit very well into today's employment world of office drones, bean counters, and yes men. Someone like the individual described above is a threat, not in a crazy/violent/guns sense, but in the sense that they are likely superior to their superiors, and would expose such. Glaringly.

“We weed out the Rambos, the psychos, and the loners. We want All-American boys who go out and do what we tell them and no more.”

Maybe I'm just unlucky, but I can put two young men, recently out of the service, in front of you that show otherwise. They fit all of the above criteria, minus loner, at once. I watched one of them get arrested recently due to violent outbursts in public, and the other one seems to have disappeared. It's been a mix of painful and scary to watch these two. Neither should have had the jobs they did when they were in. Things aren't the way they used to be, not society, not the service. We're doomed.

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from Jeff Bowers wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I fully understand this. I feel sometimes I have just been lucky. When I got off active duty (the first time), My security clearances helped me get a good job more than my schools. I was given the chance to 'catch up' with civilian engineering.

In case that sounded strange, some of you know the time it takes to procure high-tech items. Many of these things are in service long after the tech has evolved a generation or two.

The fact that I was a full engineer wasn't that great. It was the '80s, and I was an engineer on '60s technology.

But to this day, I still don't see how some people can complain so much at work about such little things. If nobody's shooting at us, it's a great day to come to work!

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from James Miller wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Mr. Petzel, as always, your points are unassailable. My question is, why even bother reading The NYT?

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from operationvista wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

It is a shame that our veterans are having such a hard time finding employment. In truth, they are probably infinitely more qualified than their civilian counterparts in many areas. I know, I've been there. Please take a look at my foundation's website, www.operationvista.org. We are providing vets with an interest in health, fitness, medical and other sports-related activities (including shooting sports), with educational and motivational seminars. Take a look and feel free to contact us for more info. www.operationvista.org

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from Frosty24-7 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Whether or not the draft is a good idea, the experience in the military is a great primer for life. Semper Fidelis says it all, always faithful to God, Corps and Country. That's a hell of a building block for anyone who wants to achieve in their life!!

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from Albert V. Turk wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Until you've gone through basic training (or something like it) you probably have very little idea what you can do. I suspect the OWS folks are not very big on getting up early and staying on task. Not that being in the military is required, it just provides a big dose of doing things you wouldn't have though possible.

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from davidpetzal wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

To James Miller: Because you have to get the news somewhere, and the NYT is the best of a bad lot.

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from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Dave, Marginally better than most, The Washington TIMEs not the Post does a pretty good job.

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from JHostetler wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Encouraging story! I just got done with my 4 years in the Army as an Infantryman and I was lucky enough to be a sniper. I was able to attend the Army sniper school in Georgia as well as SFSC, (Special Forces Sniper School), in Washington. I totally enjoyed my time as a sniper. Getting out in the woods with just a few of your buddies and getting paid to shoot long-distance and hang out outside... best job ever. We did deploy to Iraq but had a fairly uneventful tour. (I think too many people were praying for us for anything too crazy to happen.)
Just wanted to say thanks to all of you guys who are supportive. I had a great experience with the military and I definitely got more out of it then I had to give. It's not for everyone but for those who are interested it can be a great option and it's one you won't regret.
In closing, thanks for the encouraging article... you just gained a heap of respect in my book. God bless!!!

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from GERG wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Every quality described a sniper needs to to be a sniper sounds like someone anyone I know would like to hire and have in a civilian job. What better qualities in a young man could one want? Pretty simple answer but I lay the gauntlet for anyone to say it better.

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from fishrmn100 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I enjoyed this article. It hit home.
When I graduated high school, I had no idea of what direction that I wanted to pursue. I got in a little college and then my draft number was drawn. I beat it by picking my service and joined. I will never regret that! It was an unpopular time. My time in taught me discipline and the meaning of team work. I learned many skills, other than my main occupation as electronics tech. I was the only ET on the ship, that I served on. I had one Captain that cross trained me in other occupations. I learned Quartermaster, radioman, radarman, etc. He always put me on the equipment that was most urgently needed. He had a philosophy, that if you maintain it, you work it. Needless to say, my equipment functioned.
When I left the service and looked for employment, I was always turned down. Finally at one interview, I was asked why I hadn't been employed by anyone else and I simply stated that they all said, that I had no commercial experience. I was hired on the spot for that answer.

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from coachsjike wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I as a school teacher and a citizen i have the UTMOST REPSECT FOR OUR ARMED FORCES. the problem mr petzal is that not enough kids out of high school not going into the military is the politicians fault. the recruitment offices promise these kids with a 5 year plan (3 active duty with 2 years in active). then what happens? we go to war with countries like iraq and afghanistan and these kids are kept in longer than they were promised. no parent wants to see their kids die at the age of 23-24 because they were suppossed to be out sooner but were lied to by their government. i agree every kid should serve a 2 year plan with the military but only if the government holds them to that, not a day longer. not every kid needs to be college educated. thats part of the problem with our society, kids graduate college, there are no jobs out there but they feel they are above the most basic of jobs and thats why the illegal immigrants are here.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

ja_demko

It's not slavery, it's called pulling your share of the load. Probably something that a Libertarian like yourself would never understand. That said, we need leadership that ensures that our troops and resources aren't squandered on lost causes and wars that do not support our national interests and security.

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from ja_demko wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I'm not a Libertarian. I'm a libertarian. There's a difference and you should learn what it is.
Did you miss the part where I said I volunteered for military service? I guess you must have, otherwise the snide "load pulling" crack is just senseless.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I could give a rip what a capital letter difference is. So exactly what does you volunteering for military service have to do with calling the draft 'slavery'? Just you just volunteer and were turned away or did you actually serve?

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from ja_demko wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

You aren't worth talking to, WA MTnhunter. I had a better opinion of you before this thread, but I was, clearly, wrong about you. Good day.

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from DakotaMan wrote 2 years 16 weeks ago

While I have all the respect in the world for our sniper's (and most military personnel's) personal character and characteristics, I can see what Ms. Feldstein might have meant.

For many of our jobs today, technical skills are a prerequisite. Those who have transferable technical training, e.g. medical, computer, scientific, etc. will find it easier to get a job. There are a lot of people with high character (both civilian and military) unemployed right now. Unfortunately, although they have character, snipers typically can't do brain surgery or create software as well as someone with education and experience in the field.

We DO need to give our ex-military citizens every opportunity to work but I really don't want one operating on my body or flying my airplane unless he/she is qualified. The skills you describe are good base skills for any employee and will serve them well in any line of work. Unfortunately, we have fewer unskilled jobs available than ever so people in career transition do benefit from specific career skills in seeking employment. Our nation is becoming high tech more than ever.

Go snipers! I love ya'!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 16 weeks ago

demko

You and the vine you swung in on....

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from RangerDansDrink... wrote 2 years 16 weeks ago

Ladies and Gents; It's called the G.I. Bill. The great creator of the modern middle class.

My nephew and former fishing buddy, did 2 cruses in the arabian gulf on the most dangerous 1/2 mile on the planet. Crew man on a functioning air craft carrier in a war zone. Now that he is out the GI bill is paying for a real college education, with real skills.

The upshot: Take the GI bill and add the self discipline, attention to detail, ability to see things through, willingness to take the solid, hard courses, (not liberal arts short cuts and whine when you don't get the best job offer) and they will be the next generation of Doctors, Pilots, Engineers. Thats what skills the sniper (an thousands like him) bring to the table. And I for one thank God for them.

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from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 15 weeks ago

RangersDansDrink,
Amen and God Bless you , you are right on the mark. Military experience before college is invaluable.

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from buckhunter wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

The smartest man on the face of the Earth is the E-6.

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from Happy Myles wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I am probably prejudiced, but during fifty years of senior management have had better luck with employees with military background, be it enlisted, draft, NCOs, or officers than Harvard Business School types with no military background. Like I wrote , probably just me, but it worked.

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from SD_Whitetail_Hntr wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I haven't served in the US Military and it is truly one of my biggest regrets. I should have done it right out of highschool and then life just happened too fast and it's been impossible for me to leave a good job to join the military now, even for the Guards. I, however, respect the men and women in the armed forces more than words can explain. And I am proud to live the life they have allowed me through their sacrifice. I can recite the Army Values, Warrior's Creed, know the Enlisted and Commissioned rank structure, and probably a lot more than I should for never having been in the Army.. But I know those things simply because I take time to care about what our military is doing for us on a daily basis.

And on a side note, if I ever came across that group of hot sacks of garbage Baptists from Kansas who picket at military funerals, I'd go to prison. Plain and simple. That level of ignorance can only be solved with the business end of 5.56 and I really don't care that I sound like a psycho saying it.

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from Longhunter wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Very interesting subject today. While I never wore a uniform I do have an understanding of the difficulties that service people have obtaining employment. They have many outstanding attributes that would be highly desirable for employers. I worked in a correctional facility in my career and whenever I was asked how do I handle a stressful situation I reply that "if no one is trying to kill you, then you are having a pretty good day." It puts things into perspective. I do disagree with Dave on one point. I do condemn Ms. Feldstein because unlike the rest of the Americans out there she is supposed to be helping the vets with training and job skills. If she is so dense that she can't see the merits of their transferable skills then I humbly believe she should find another line of work.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

All of you detractors of military service have my permission to enjoy all your freedoms and spoiled ways....right after you kiss my ass.

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from huntnow wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

We can possibly condemn Ms. Feldstein for apparently not knowing a single military veteran. I built bombs, rockets, and countermeasures in the Air Force. Not much of a job market for that either outside the military. However, like the sniper, I learned many other skills including leadership. With the help of the GI Bill, I got out and earned a college degree and am fully employed. I'm not bragging, I know many other vets who have done more than myself and no one owes me a damn thing. The jobless rate is high across the country, Feldstein just wanted to pick on the military as part of her agenda.

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from bruisedsausage wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

When I got out I found it harder to find a good job then what I thought I would. (never did find a "good" one. LOL) Much of what was included on my resume could only be used by one private employer in the entire CONUS. However it was very specialized and most people can't do it because of the complexity. I slaved away for my relentless employer who could care less about me. So I moved on... It's called the GI Bill, and it's there for a reason. Working on a degree in Environmental Engineering currently and can't wait to be done. =)

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from ishawooa wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I remember at the end of the movie/book THE PACIFIC after the war was over, one of the main characters was back in civilian life. He was at an employment office and was asked what the Marines had taught him. He replied "They taught me to kill Japs and they are good at what they do". Not exactly an appropriate comment on the sniper resume but you do doubt get the meaning.

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from 007 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I'm not a vet (my camo hat is off to all of you who are), and Sarge said something that caught my attention, "a different outlook on our great nation and what it took to keep it this way". It makes me sick when I hear these kids today who refuse to vote or don't pay attention to the news and current events because "it doesn't effect me". It might not today or tomorrow, but one day soon, who's sitting in the oval office, who he or she appoints, and the decisions they make will touch your life.

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from MNflyfisher wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I recently signed the next 14 years of my life away to the USMC, oorah, probably the greatest decision i've ever made and a very marketable decision. simper fi

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from fliphuntr14 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

ishoowa- great movie series and that line sticks with me to. SDhntr- you don't sound crazy at all those, people are horrible human beings. The military seems to be turning more and more people today. I have asthma but could out run most people in a 2 mile race, military wouldn't have me. Where that door closed the new one i am pursing now opened for me in the field of biology (what i am studying now). I'd like to thank the past present, and future vets, i am envious of many of the skills you guys worked so hard to achieve and thank you for securing me the chance to do what i am doing now.

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from chaslee wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Hell, alot of jobs are task oriented and goal driven. A sniper has one task and will pursue that task to conclusion(goal). My hat goes off to all in uniform. I have a fellow who works for me who was sniper. He is the most discipland employee I know. Glad i'm his bud.

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from Frosty24-7 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Whether or not the draft is a good idea, the experience in the military is a great primer for life. Semper Fidelis says it all, always faithful to God, Corps and Country. That's a hell of a building block for anyone who wants to achieve in their life!!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Business Card:

Joseph J. Jones, Esq.
Senior Gene Pool Management Specialist

"We whack 'em, You stack 'em"

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from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Even in peace time I think that able bodied men and women should serve their country and learn what the term dicipline means and to appreciate the freedoms that we enjoy as an American. I don't advocate war and never have, even though I'm a war veteran, it would just have been as good if I had not. I think that military service just gives a person a different outlook on our great nation and what it took to keep it this way. Our Conservation Officers' effectiveness and committment went downhill when we removed the requirement of military service and started requiring a 4 year college degree. It quit being a profession and starting being a job. Don't jump on me I have college too.

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from O Garcia wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

It's probably sacrilege to say this, but I think a lot of the misconceptions about snipers stem from the fact that the EXCEPTION among the snipers in Vietnam, Carlos Hathcock, became the rule in the minds of the people, because he was the one whose story was riveting (Spartan way of life, lifetime devotion to USMC, tragic career-ending accident and illness), and then immortalized in book form and then bits and pieces of it subsequently copied by Hollywood (Pvt. Jackson in "Saving Private Ryan", GSgt. Tom Beckett in "Sniper" series). Even the fact that he was a USMC, and therefore, a bolt-action shooter, slanted our perception.

So we think of snipers as carbon copies of Hathcock, men who go out alone in enemy territory, crawling for 3 days w/o food, water or toilet breaks just to get within 700 yards of an NVA general, men who are so driven, so obsessed w/ taking out enemies they had to be grounded in base camp because they're no longer eating proper meals and showering etc.

As some authors on the sniper war in Vietnam have revealed, Hathcock was the only sniper there who went out on missions alone, often for nearly a week at a time. Snipers in Vietnam almost always went out in pairs, and they never ventured beyond the range of their 7 or 9 man support squad. The idea being that if the target proves too large for the two men to take out, the support squad can help. Also, if the sniper team gets compromised, the support squad can help in the escape.

The combined sniper team + support squad never ventured beyond the range of artillery or airstrike support, again same idea as above. The artillery and/or airstrike can either help take out the enemy or prevent the enemy from wiping out the snipers.

(Nowadays, of course, the sniper team consists of an entire squad, basically the two-man team and the support squad of the Vietnam Era combined into a single unit.)

Don't get me wrong, Carlos Hathcock was truly great, not only as a sniper but also as a patriot American, and deserving of his place as the most revered sniper in history along with Simo Hayha (Finland) and Vasily Zaitsev (Russia), but he also effectively skewed our minds with that same greatness. We think all snipers ought to be like him.

Some snipers were/are normal. And yes, some of them, like Army sniper Adelbert Waldron, shot self-loading rifles, and did "one shot-one kill" just fine. (This is a gun blog, so I thought I should add that.)

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from Ferber wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Quite right on all counts. The effect of the old 2-year draft provided enlightenment, at the very least, to all able-bodied men. I don't know any veterans who bad-mouth, or diminish the military in other ways, either. No one I know who has served wants to cut the military budget or disuade youngsters from 'joining up'. The draft was in effect when I graduated from college. I enlisted in the navy and applied to OCS. I can truthfully say that any success I've achieved in business--and much of elsewhere--is due, in a very large part, to my military experience.

While the idea of serving in the military to most young people 50 years ago was merely a looming negative...Viet Nam history made the concept worse. My own daughter is a good example. She wanted to be in broadcast media. A communications major in college, she was told at the celebration following the retirement of an Admiral shooting friend,that if she applied to, and successfully completed Officers Candidate School, he would help her in being assigned to the navy's film and broadcast department. 'Helping' her of course, meant a guarantee, and a helluva resume post-navy in civilian life. 'No thanks', said she. "I don't want to be a 'soldier'.

Where the f... are these kids heads? That was 10 years ago. Today they are protesting capitalism, demanding entitlements and crapping on police cars.

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from firedog11 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Interesting comments here throughout the postings. I had two brothers who served (I did not)both came back with skills and aptitudes that have served them well. I believe the lady mentioned suffers from what the bulk of the country suffers from, that a college degree is the only proof of intelligence in the universe. When I was assigned to interview new hires for the Fire Dept. many of the military vets I recommended were never hired and in fact a person in HR told me to stop recommending them as the county government didn't want them. I recommended many anyway and shortly after that I was taken out of that job. I must admit and both my brothers confirmed this that in my mind I would want someone having my back to want be there not someone who was told to be there.

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from RANGERMANZ20 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

As a current Active Duty Member that was a Drill Sgt at Fort Benning, Ga for over 3 years training future Infantrymen, and a Sniper that served in OIF I and OIF II, I see full well everyday the distances between those who have served and those who haven't. After WWII and up to Vietnam most Americans either had served or had a family member who had. But now it is completely reversed. I'm currently serving in Korea, were young peole here have to serve 18 months upon completetion on High School. Most of our fellow NATO members do this, after over 21 years of active service I can tell you the way our youth in America are going today, we need to adopt a system like here in Korea to give them some guidence and a skill set. We would have allot less your people getting into trouble, we would have a stronger more motivated work force and the military would save money on enlistment bonuses, which be saved for mid career Soldiers who chose to stay in. There was an article on Yahoo.com about 1 out of 3 young adults in America will get arrested before age 21, these kids have no guidence or home up bringing. South Korea has one of the lowest crime rates in the world I rest my case, for manditory military services.

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from ITHACASXS wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

We have had enconomic downturns for as long as I can remember. During those ups and many downs the older men in our community lead there families threw them. Many of these men were vets of WW2, Korea or like my dad, between Korea and Viet Nam. They fixed their own plumbing, painted their own porches, fixed our bikes, cut up their own deer,cooked huge breakfasts opening morning(or for supper if ma was sick) and taught us that ''nobody likes a smartass or a whiner'', They could rock babies (lots of them) too. Almost all the men I knew tipped their hats to Uncle Sam for what they learned while in uniform, wether they liked it at the time or not. These men all had titles too, If it wasn't Dad or Uncle, it was Mister. I don't believe we have enough of these men anymore. What have we done?

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from Albert V. Turk wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Until you've gone through basic training (or something like it) you probably have very little idea what you can do. I suspect the OWS folks are not very big on getting up early and staying on task. Not that being in the military is required, it just provides a big dose of doing things you wouldn't have though possible.

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from davidpetzal wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

To James Miller: Because you have to get the news somewhere, and the NYT is the best of a bad lot.

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from CL3 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

great article! I hope you sent it off to Ms. Feldstein.

Perhaps you two can work together to enlighten some more Americans.

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from Hoski wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Decline and fall of the United States?
Did I miss something? We speaking Chinese now?
One percent of our population is fighting our wars...as opposed to everybody joining so we can have more wars?

Thanks Dave, I appreciate your correlation of the snipers' skills set to the civilian world, and I thank you and all veterans for their service.

Let the dinging begin.

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from ishawooa wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

that should read "no doubt", should proof read prior to submitting...

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from Bernie wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Dave, as a former Recon Marine I agree with you entirely!

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from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Well, Dave, when I got out back in late 1974, I have to say that it didn't appear to me that the New Modern All-Volunteer Army was doing quite as good a job weeding as you describe. I wound up with a female MP working for me who MAY have weighed 75 lbs dripping wet. And she was mentally unhinged. I could go on. As I stated in another post, the draft was good for the country, good for the military, and good for young men (as far as I know the US never drafted a woman).

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from nashman wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Some of the least intelligent people I know have spent a lot of time in school, but lets be honest here this lady wasn't just talking about vets. Lots of folks are out of work and the problem isn't because vets are drinking or in rehab and can't get work, the problem is that the government of this great nation has sent most of the work overseas. That is the underlying problem and I bet that if you make more jobs you will have less unemployed vets. If you ask any veteran how they feel about the mess this country is in I think they will tell you that they are just frustrated that the same men who decide where and how the military will go can't make a good descision about anything else. Anyway back to what that lady, Ms. Feldstein said, "If you train someone to be a sniper those skills may not be transferable, but they might be necessary" or something like that.

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from Mark-1 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

-Served with and led during the Draft and in All-Volunteer. I found the All Volunteer’s superior. Sorry, but that’s what I saw.

-Biggest problem now is the Elites somehow believe any vet is somehow tainted and will never be able to live a *normal* life. It was the same way in the Vietnam Era. All vets were Baby Burners. Danger is matters are more subtle now. Vets are declared PTS, or worse, and entered on NICS by VA. Think the number is 400k now.

e.g. VA put 114k vets on NICS for having a fiduciary for their benefits. The Law *required* it. However the 6.7 million SS receptiants having a fiduciary aren’t required to be entered on NICS. Go figure.

DP, you’re fighting a long and loosing battle. Gov’t and the Elites never lose. If they have you rude, crude and socially unacceptable, then you must be by Gov’t decree. They just won't let you see the decree. If you get to see the decree, then you'll find out that the Gov’t and the Elites are wrong and that's patently un-American!!!!

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from O Garcia wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

BTW, Chuck Mawhinney, a Marine, also used an M21 with starlight scope to take out 16 men of the VC attempting to cross a river. Snipers used whatever served them better. In Mawhinney's case, it was the M21 that night, even though regularly he used the M40.

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from dickgun wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Great serious thought subject.
IF, the universal draft could absorb the cost of all those young people on welfare, drug corners, drug incarcerations, habitual students on grants or loans; and add them to those who can lead them, like those whom we now have trained and fighting,as needed, with a resulting achievement of perhaps a better class of young people who could transfer those skills to daily society; And, the cost benefit could be neutral, the overall benefits could be huge.
On the other hand would we need continuous conflict (war) to occupy the masses - or - how would they be transitioned back into a useful and productive citizen?
WWII did a pretty good job.........

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from bluegraytx wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I suggested bringing back the draft a couple of years ago on a rifle-specific user's group web site. I was shocked at the response. Perhaps if they trained with Nintendos and Wii's in boot camp ...?

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from Jim in Mo wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Well thought out response Dave. Wish I had the cognitive or writing ability.

As for the draft. I have mixed emotions.
IMO, I think the draft presents the best men for the military. It's a tougher job for the drill sgt.'s and other educators but the 'best of the best' are within their grasp.

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from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Ditto WAM and mine too while they are at it.

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from shane wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

"if a person with this package of talents came to me looking for a job, my only question would be, “When can you start?”"

Unfortunately, the skills/aptitudes you list above don't fit very well into today's employment world of office drones, bean counters, and yes men. Someone like the individual described above is a threat, not in a crazy/violent/guns sense, but in the sense that they are likely superior to their superiors, and would expose such. Glaringly.

“We weed out the Rambos, the psychos, and the loners. We want All-American boys who go out and do what we tell them and no more.”

Maybe I'm just unlucky, but I can put two young men, recently out of the service, in front of you that show otherwise. They fit all of the above criteria, minus loner, at once. I watched one of them get arrested recently due to violent outbursts in public, and the other one seems to have disappeared. It's been a mix of painful and scary to watch these two. Neither should have had the jobs they did when they were in. Things aren't the way they used to be, not society, not the service. We're doomed.

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from Jeff Bowers wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I fully understand this. I feel sometimes I have just been lucky. When I got off active duty (the first time), My security clearances helped me get a good job more than my schools. I was given the chance to 'catch up' with civilian engineering.

In case that sounded strange, some of you know the time it takes to procure high-tech items. Many of these things are in service long after the tech has evolved a generation or two.

The fact that I was a full engineer wasn't that great. It was the '80s, and I was an engineer on '60s technology.

But to this day, I still don't see how some people can complain so much at work about such little things. If nobody's shooting at us, it's a great day to come to work!

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from James Miller wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Mr. Petzel, as always, your points are unassailable. My question is, why even bother reading The NYT?

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from operationvista wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

It is a shame that our veterans are having such a hard time finding employment. In truth, they are probably infinitely more qualified than their civilian counterparts in many areas. I know, I've been there. Please take a look at my foundation's website, www.operationvista.org. We are providing vets with an interest in health, fitness, medical and other sports-related activities (including shooting sports), with educational and motivational seminars. Take a look and feel free to contact us for more info. www.operationvista.org

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from JHostetler wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Encouraging story! I just got done with my 4 years in the Army as an Infantryman and I was lucky enough to be a sniper. I was able to attend the Army sniper school in Georgia as well as SFSC, (Special Forces Sniper School), in Washington. I totally enjoyed my time as a sniper. Getting out in the woods with just a few of your buddies and getting paid to shoot long-distance and hang out outside... best job ever. We did deploy to Iraq but had a fairly uneventful tour. (I think too many people were praying for us for anything too crazy to happen.)
Just wanted to say thanks to all of you guys who are supportive. I had a great experience with the military and I definitely got more out of it then I had to give. It's not for everyone but for those who are interested it can be a great option and it's one you won't regret.
In closing, thanks for the encouraging article... you just gained a heap of respect in my book. God bless!!!

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from coachsjike wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I as a school teacher and a citizen i have the UTMOST REPSECT FOR OUR ARMED FORCES. the problem mr petzal is that not enough kids out of high school not going into the military is the politicians fault. the recruitment offices promise these kids with a 5 year plan (3 active duty with 2 years in active). then what happens? we go to war with countries like iraq and afghanistan and these kids are kept in longer than they were promised. no parent wants to see their kids die at the age of 23-24 because they were suppossed to be out sooner but were lied to by their government. i agree every kid should serve a 2 year plan with the military but only if the government holds them to that, not a day longer. not every kid needs to be college educated. thats part of the problem with our society, kids graduate college, there are no jobs out there but they feel they are above the most basic of jobs and thats why the illegal immigrants are here.

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from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Dave, Marginally better than most, The Washington TIMEs not the Post does a pretty good job.

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from GERG wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Every quality described a sniper needs to to be a sniper sounds like someone anyone I know would like to hire and have in a civilian job. What better qualities in a young man could one want? Pretty simple answer but I lay the gauntlet for anyone to say it better.

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from fishrmn100 wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I enjoyed this article. It hit home.
When I graduated high school, I had no idea of what direction that I wanted to pursue. I got in a little college and then my draft number was drawn. I beat it by picking my service and joined. I will never regret that! It was an unpopular time. My time in taught me discipline and the meaning of team work. I learned many skills, other than my main occupation as electronics tech. I was the only ET on the ship, that I served on. I had one Captain that cross trained me in other occupations. I learned Quartermaster, radioman, radarman, etc. He always put me on the equipment that was most urgently needed. He had a philosophy, that if you maintain it, you work it. Needless to say, my equipment functioned.
When I left the service and looked for employment, I was always turned down. Finally at one interview, I was asked why I hadn't been employed by anyone else and I simply stated that they all said, that I had no commercial experience. I was hired on the spot for that answer.

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from ja_demko wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I'm not a Libertarian. I'm a libertarian. There's a difference and you should learn what it is.
Did you miss the part where I said I volunteered for military service? I guess you must have, otherwise the snide "load pulling" crack is just senseless.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

I could give a rip what a capital letter difference is. So exactly what does you volunteering for military service have to do with calling the draft 'slavery'? Just you just volunteer and were turned away or did you actually serve?

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from ja_demko wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

You aren't worth talking to, WA MTnhunter. I had a better opinion of you before this thread, but I was, clearly, wrong about you. Good day.

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from DakotaMan wrote 2 years 16 weeks ago

While I have all the respect in the world for our sniper's (and most military personnel's) personal character and characteristics, I can see what Ms. Feldstein might have meant.

For many of our jobs today, technical skills are a prerequisite. Those who have transferable technical training, e.g. medical, computer, scientific, etc. will find it easier to get a job. There are a lot of people with high character (both civilian and military) unemployed right now. Unfortunately, although they have character, snipers typically can't do brain surgery or create software as well as someone with education and experience in the field.

We DO need to give our ex-military citizens every opportunity to work but I really don't want one operating on my body or flying my airplane unless he/she is qualified. The skills you describe are good base skills for any employee and will serve them well in any line of work. Unfortunately, we have fewer unskilled jobs available than ever so people in career transition do benefit from specific career skills in seeking employment. Our nation is becoming high tech more than ever.

Go snipers! I love ya'!

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from RangerDansDrink... wrote 2 years 16 weeks ago

Ladies and Gents; It's called the G.I. Bill. The great creator of the modern middle class.

My nephew and former fishing buddy, did 2 cruses in the arabian gulf on the most dangerous 1/2 mile on the planet. Crew man on a functioning air craft carrier in a war zone. Now that he is out the GI bill is paying for a real college education, with real skills.

The upshot: Take the GI bill and add the self discipline, attention to detail, ability to see things through, willingness to take the solid, hard courses, (not liberal arts short cuts and whine when you don't get the best job offer) and they will be the next generation of Doctors, Pilots, Engineers. Thats what skills the sniper (an thousands like him) bring to the table. And I for one thank God for them.

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from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 15 weeks ago

RangersDansDrink,
Amen and God Bless you , you are right on the mark. Military experience before college is invaluable.

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from ja_demko wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

We'll leave aside the whole idea of whether this country has had a war since, maybe, WWII that was worth the blood and treasure we poured out. Conscription is slavery and always has been.

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from ja_demko wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

Does that include those of us who volunteered for military service but are detractors of conscription?

WRT your ass and the kissing thereof: Where would you even start?

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 17 weeks ago

ja_demko

It's not slavery, it's called pulling your share of the load. Probably something that a Libertarian like yourself would never understand. That said, we need leadership that ensures that our troops and resources aren't squandered on lost causes and wars that do not support our national interests and security.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 16 weeks ago

demko

You and the vine you swung in on....

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