


February 14, 2012
Clay Target Guys Can't Hit Feathers...Or Can They?
by Phil Bourjaily

I have heard a lot of hunters say “Take those clay target guys hunting and they can’t hit a thing.” I’ll disagree. Most good clay shots are good field shots, too. The best display of field shooting I have ever seen was put on by Sporting Clays champion Andy Duffy over the course of the two days we hunted grouse together in Minnesota a few years ago.
But, there are adjustments to make when you switch from clay to feathers. After a summer of practice at skeet and sporting clays, I shoot too far in front of real birds at first. Why it happens I don’t know. Maybe it’s the optical illusion presented by clay targets moving faster than they appear to be. Whatever the case, clay targets often require more lead than you think they should, while real birds often need less.
I’m not the only one with that problem. My predecessor Bob Brister--a great shot--used to write about shooting too far in front of birds at the beginning of the season. I saw a perfect example on the last day of goose season last month. I took my friend Peter, who graduated high school five years ago with my older son. Peter had a terrific Sporting Clays season last year, making a spot on Iowa’s All-State team, but he didn't have time to hunt much this fall, so he was still in clay mode when we put out the goose spread.
Long story short, I killed a goose out of a trio that split off a larger flock and was out retrieving it when the two survivors circled back and flew about ten yards high over Peter’s blind. He hesitated, because he is polite and I wasn't there. I screamed “Shoot those geese!” so he lead them too much, shot three times, and they flew away.
Naturally, I was sympathetic. I said, “You clay target guys can’t hit a real bird, can you?”-- a remark I will no doubt pay for on the sporting clays course this summer.
Comments (32)
Good target clays shooter is a good field shot. Trick for anyone is learning to get a shot off or to take the shot.
And then there are those of us that can't hit either!
I would believe that good clay shooters should be good bird shooters, but what about the reverse? I would bet there are good bird shooters who aren't good clay shooters because I think I'm one, I find when it's clay I end up thinking too much, but when it's fur or feather I just shoot, in fact my best shots on clays are when I don't get much time, I see the target and I have to shoot quickly before it's gone. Not that I'm a great shot on game, but I'd wager my percentages on game are quite a bit higher.
Agree with Levi. I overthink the clays.
I find that I'm better at hitting clays than birds simply because I know the clays aren't going to do something erratic or surprising. I think that thought alone helps me relax and make a good shot. In the field it's so much easier to rush and miss because of the uncertainty (and adrenaline).
Could it be because of the green factor? Let's see, a box of #8's runs about $5 for 25 shots vs premium shells at $2 to $3 a shot. But in the larger scheme of things, the value of the outing will be remembered long after the price is forgotten. And if you think that clay shooters can't hit feathers, or vice-versa, that old adage may apply to specific individuals but I wouldn't bet on it when considering the groups as a whole.
All the great clay shooters I know are also great shots in the field. Doing things such as 5 stand clay shooting really improves your reflexes and shooting abilities. Personally, I think Im just as good/bad in the field or at the range.
i agree that a heavy clay/seldom game shooter will have a hard time with feathers at first, but s/he will quickly change the "in head" calculations to adapt to this "new environment"...
once you are focused or used to seeing the same thing (speed, size, distance and constant angle of target) it can be a little unfamiliar in the transition.
more game shooting experience is the answer, no good alternatives (except clay is good for practicing proper technique/form/fit/handling etc ie the basics)
Just went Pheasant hunting and had the same problem after shooting a lot of skeet. But once I figured out the leed issue there were a lot of dead pairs!
Haha great topic. I find the clay targets more fun, myself.
Hit clays, and birds will fall from the sky.
Says I
Yeah, I'm with ya, Levi. I am a far better shot in the field than I am at clays because, as some have already said, I mount and shoot in the field and overthink at the range. Plus, I can't keep the thought that each shot "counts" more with live birds from sneaking around the back of my brain.
I think most good clay shooters tend to be good field shooters primarily because they usually shoot a lot more and more often than someone who shoots mostly in hunting situations. The exception would be volume dove shooting in S. America - by the 2nd afternoon I would actually evolve into a fairly decent shot. But I've been focusing on big game hunting in the past decade, so haven't been south of the border in years, and my wingshooting suffers as a result (just ask all the ducks that flew around my patterns this season).
But when I shoot a bunch of clays over time, I am definitely better in the field even if my clay scores haven't been what I wish they were...which is usually the case. Dang, time to hit the range!
Yeah, I'm with ya, Levi. I am a far better shot in the field than I am at clays because, as some have already said, I mount and shoot in the field and overthink at the range. Plus, I can't keep the thought that each shot "counts" more with live birds from sneaking around the back of my brain.
I think most good clay shooters tend to be good field shooters primarily because they usually shoot a lot more and more often than someone who shoots mostly in hunting situations. The exception would be volume dove shooting in S. America - by the 2nd afternoon I would actually evolve into a fairly decent shot. But I've been focusing on big game hunting in the past decade, so haven't been south of the border in years, and my wingshooting suffers as a result (just ask all the ducks that flew around my patterns this season).
But when I shoot a bunch of clays over time, I am definitely better in the field even if my clay scores haven't been what I wish they were...which is usually the case. Dang, time to hit the range!
All I can tell you is that when I used to shoot a lot of skeet, I rarely, if ever, missed a bird in the field. They almost seemed too easy.
I spend far more time in the field than shnooting clays even though i enjoy skeet and sporting clay courses. I shoot far better dove and duck hunting than on the clay coursse. It may sound dumb but having to say pull throws me off. Any tips to cure this other than practice.
Many guys I hunt with fail to recognize a bird they shot as a miss when they've killed it on the second or third shot. I don't neccessarily exclude myself from this group. In target shooting, I'm not aware of a game where you're allowed to take more than one shot at the clay and not consider it a miss? I even see this with rifleman. They come into my store and want advice as to why their gun won't group and can't understand why they are able to kill every deer they shoot at?
The guy who said clay target shooters can't hit feathers has not seen an A, AA, AAA skeet shooter working in a dove field or a 27 yard man at trap pulling down long pheasants or ducks. A Master Class Sporting shooter usually hits what he or she is shooting at too.
Granted, there are some clay target shooters who don't hit feathers well, but they usually don't hit clay targets very well either.
When sporting clays emerged in the US for real, it amazed me how many guys were breaking targets (and a lot of them too) with well worn bird guns that I had never seen at the skeet club. My take on it is a good natural shooter will do well in the field and with a bit of tweaking will break championship scores once the mental part of the game has been mastered.
RES,
I agree, if a person can grind up clay they in my experience can put birds on the ground. But I've seen many good game shots that can't handle clays very well.
I haven't shot clays for decades. Too expensive back in the days when I had a family to feed.
However, it doesn't surprise me that Peter would miss those geese. I believe it had more to do with the loads he was shooting than anything else. Trap loads are generally slow and easy on the shoulder. Steel goose loads are going to be zinging at 1500+ fps and pounding the shooter considerably more than low base talcum-makers. Leading geese is considerably different than clays even if the honkers were right on top of him. And I suspect it took him quite a bit to recover from the significantly worse than usual pounding the first shot laid on him. I would expect anyone who spent the summer shooting trap to have trouble adjusting to goose loads.
I shoot much better on live birds than clays, I think it's because of many reasons, the primary one being that, on a flushing bird or pass shooting situation, I have more time to get my vision focused, thus I never have to shoot swing through. Birds comming off of the ground, arn't moving very fast in the first few seconds, unlike many clay presentations that are nothing but a blur and my barrel comes from behind. If I can shoot "move mount shoot" sustained leed, I see leed better, and have better trigger control. It's my belief that many clay shooters shoot to much swing through, because that is what their used to. Once they out of that mode, and stay in front their deadly.
Some very good points and interesting theories by all, and tom warner, I have always fancied myself a pretty good field shot even before I became addicted to the skeet bug. When I started shooting sporting clays, I became a much better wingshot because I was given the opportunity to shoot targets longer than the 21 yard crossing shots presented at skeet as well as longer angle birds, which I might have improved upon had I shot trap (just couldn't bring myself to shoot much of that game). Sporting also required a low gun start, as opposed to skeet and that helped a lot in the field.
Overthinking clays is a theme common to most who try any dicipline of shooting for the first time. There is always a tendency to 'aim' and 'measure' instead of point and shoot. My advice to friends or clients I am introducing to the game is to not worry about lead on the skeet field, just keep your eyes on the bird and try to shoot right at it. It is amazing how well that gets targets to breaking for the neophytes.
I think the advantage to shooting clays is quickness. I have gone frome a 12 t0 a 20 GA pheasant hunting so I won't tear them up. Most bird hunters i shoot with hesitate. If they hesitate its my bird! I'm only fair at sporting clays but enjoy it emencely. Plus courses very in difficulty. I might shoot a 40 at one place and a 29 at another. Too many sporting clay courses are set up too difficult. To get shooters involved and wanting them to return use the kis method. If you are looking for competition you already know where to go!
i started shooting clays when i was 8, started with skeet, and shot that all the time with sporting clays and five stand mixed in here and there...got quite good at the clay game. when i turned twelve i basically quit shooting clays and spend my weekends hunting. shot a lot of grouse and pheasant. lots of snap shooting. a year ago i got back into the sporting clays game, and found id gotten quite atrocious at it. all those years of snap shooting birds had ruined my patience on the clays course. eventually though after a few trips i worked out the kinks. now im pretty efficient at busting clays, and killing birds.
Most days I'm batting 500 or better shooting birds. Really wouldn't want to improve on that. I want to spend as much time as possible in the field. The quicker I fill the bag, the sooner I have to go home.
To nchunt101: Just say ready and have the puller throw it when they feel like it. This would represent field shooting more.
Trapper VIC: I am glad we don't hunt together as it is not ethical or safe to shoot birds that are others to shoot at first. Come to the Iowa State Sporting Clays Shoot this summer and I will kick your brass :)
Also please check your spelling before you post !
The problem with shooting 50% in the field is that when you only get one flock of geese, one rooster flushing or one set of ducks that work you all day, then you better be more competant than 50%.
I'm in total agreement with the fact that a hunt should not be judged by the weight of the game bag, but missing the only opportunity to get the skunk off my back is the stuff bad dreams are made of, plus you get ugly looks from your dog.
I think I'll continue to hone my skills on the clay target range off season and let the naysayers beware.
The excitement of the pheasant or grouse bursting into the air, results in many hunters not shouldering their gun properly, and firing too quickly. A calmer shot with a proper lead brings better results.
This seems to happen to me too. hmm.. I never thought about it though. At the beginning of the season I always lead my shot too much. Maybe I'm just rusty lol
I know a few people that can hit lots of clays but couldn't hit a bird with a punt gun. And vice-versa, I know bird guys that can not hit clays to save their lives. I also know guys that can hit both quite regularily so it all depends on the shooters concentration to me.
The waterfowl season after I took up sporting clays (I shot over 3,000 targets an a 1000 registered targets) I had six perfect duck hunts shooting six ducks with six shells. I have watched several new hunters make great progress due to practice on clays. There is never enough shooting most hunting to develop good form.
All of the clay target games have helped me, but sporting clays has helped the most. I see better and I seem to read what the birds better. I shoot a lot of triples each year since I have shot more.
People who say that target guys can't hit a real bird are just compensating because they can't hit any clays.
I like to shoot clays and pheasants. Although my favorite target of all time is the clay rabbit
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And then there are those of us that can't hit either!
I would believe that good clay shooters should be good bird shooters, but what about the reverse? I would bet there are good bird shooters who aren't good clay shooters because I think I'm one, I find when it's clay I end up thinking too much, but when it's fur or feather I just shoot, in fact my best shots on clays are when I don't get much time, I see the target and I have to shoot quickly before it's gone. Not that I'm a great shot on game, but I'd wager my percentages on game are quite a bit higher.
Agree with Levi. I overthink the clays.
Good target clays shooter is a good field shot. Trick for anyone is learning to get a shot off or to take the shot.
I find that I'm better at hitting clays than birds simply because I know the clays aren't going to do something erratic or surprising. I think that thought alone helps me relax and make a good shot. In the field it's so much easier to rush and miss because of the uncertainty (and adrenaline).
Could it be because of the green factor? Let's see, a box of #8's runs about $5 for 25 shots vs premium shells at $2 to $3 a shot. But in the larger scheme of things, the value of the outing will be remembered long after the price is forgotten. And if you think that clay shooters can't hit feathers, or vice-versa, that old adage may apply to specific individuals but I wouldn't bet on it when considering the groups as a whole.
All the great clay shooters I know are also great shots in the field. Doing things such as 5 stand clay shooting really improves your reflexes and shooting abilities. Personally, I think Im just as good/bad in the field or at the range.
i agree that a heavy clay/seldom game shooter will have a hard time with feathers at first, but s/he will quickly change the "in head" calculations to adapt to this "new environment"...
once you are focused or used to seeing the same thing (speed, size, distance and constant angle of target) it can be a little unfamiliar in the transition.
more game shooting experience is the answer, no good alternatives (except clay is good for practicing proper technique/form/fit/handling etc ie the basics)
Just went Pheasant hunting and had the same problem after shooting a lot of skeet. But once I figured out the leed issue there were a lot of dead pairs!
Haha great topic. I find the clay targets more fun, myself.
Hit clays, and birds will fall from the sky.
Says I
Yeah, I'm with ya, Levi. I am a far better shot in the field than I am at clays because, as some have already said, I mount and shoot in the field and overthink at the range. Plus, I can't keep the thought that each shot "counts" more with live birds from sneaking around the back of my brain.
I think most good clay shooters tend to be good field shooters primarily because they usually shoot a lot more and more often than someone who shoots mostly in hunting situations. The exception would be volume dove shooting in S. America - by the 2nd afternoon I would actually evolve into a fairly decent shot. But I've been focusing on big game hunting in the past decade, so haven't been south of the border in years, and my wingshooting suffers as a result (just ask all the ducks that flew around my patterns this season).
But when I shoot a bunch of clays over time, I am definitely better in the field even if my clay scores haven't been what I wish they were...which is usually the case. Dang, time to hit the range!
Yeah, I'm with ya, Levi. I am a far better shot in the field than I am at clays because, as some have already said, I mount and shoot in the field and overthink at the range. Plus, I can't keep the thought that each shot "counts" more with live birds from sneaking around the back of my brain.
I think most good clay shooters tend to be good field shooters primarily because they usually shoot a lot more and more often than someone who shoots mostly in hunting situations. The exception would be volume dove shooting in S. America - by the 2nd afternoon I would actually evolve into a fairly decent shot. But I've been focusing on big game hunting in the past decade, so haven't been south of the border in years, and my wingshooting suffers as a result (just ask all the ducks that flew around my patterns this season).
But when I shoot a bunch of clays over time, I am definitely better in the field even if my clay scores haven't been what I wish they were...which is usually the case. Dang, time to hit the range!
All I can tell you is that when I used to shoot a lot of skeet, I rarely, if ever, missed a bird in the field. They almost seemed too easy.
I spend far more time in the field than shnooting clays even though i enjoy skeet and sporting clay courses. I shoot far better dove and duck hunting than on the clay coursse. It may sound dumb but having to say pull throws me off. Any tips to cure this other than practice.
Many guys I hunt with fail to recognize a bird they shot as a miss when they've killed it on the second or third shot. I don't neccessarily exclude myself from this group. In target shooting, I'm not aware of a game where you're allowed to take more than one shot at the clay and not consider it a miss? I even see this with rifleman. They come into my store and want advice as to why their gun won't group and can't understand why they are able to kill every deer they shoot at?
The guy who said clay target shooters can't hit feathers has not seen an A, AA, AAA skeet shooter working in a dove field or a 27 yard man at trap pulling down long pheasants or ducks. A Master Class Sporting shooter usually hits what he or she is shooting at too.
Granted, there are some clay target shooters who don't hit feathers well, but they usually don't hit clay targets very well either.
When sporting clays emerged in the US for real, it amazed me how many guys were breaking targets (and a lot of them too) with well worn bird guns that I had never seen at the skeet club. My take on it is a good natural shooter will do well in the field and with a bit of tweaking will break championship scores once the mental part of the game has been mastered.
RES,
I agree, if a person can grind up clay they in my experience can put birds on the ground. But I've seen many good game shots that can't handle clays very well.
I haven't shot clays for decades. Too expensive back in the days when I had a family to feed.
However, it doesn't surprise me that Peter would miss those geese. I believe it had more to do with the loads he was shooting than anything else. Trap loads are generally slow and easy on the shoulder. Steel goose loads are going to be zinging at 1500+ fps and pounding the shooter considerably more than low base talcum-makers. Leading geese is considerably different than clays even if the honkers were right on top of him. And I suspect it took him quite a bit to recover from the significantly worse than usual pounding the first shot laid on him. I would expect anyone who spent the summer shooting trap to have trouble adjusting to goose loads.
I shoot much better on live birds than clays, I think it's because of many reasons, the primary one being that, on a flushing bird or pass shooting situation, I have more time to get my vision focused, thus I never have to shoot swing through. Birds comming off of the ground, arn't moving very fast in the first few seconds, unlike many clay presentations that are nothing but a blur and my barrel comes from behind. If I can shoot "move mount shoot" sustained leed, I see leed better, and have better trigger control. It's my belief that many clay shooters shoot to much swing through, because that is what their used to. Once they out of that mode, and stay in front their deadly.
Some very good points and interesting theories by all, and tom warner, I have always fancied myself a pretty good field shot even before I became addicted to the skeet bug. When I started shooting sporting clays, I became a much better wingshot because I was given the opportunity to shoot targets longer than the 21 yard crossing shots presented at skeet as well as longer angle birds, which I might have improved upon had I shot trap (just couldn't bring myself to shoot much of that game). Sporting also required a low gun start, as opposed to skeet and that helped a lot in the field.
Overthinking clays is a theme common to most who try any dicipline of shooting for the first time. There is always a tendency to 'aim' and 'measure' instead of point and shoot. My advice to friends or clients I am introducing to the game is to not worry about lead on the skeet field, just keep your eyes on the bird and try to shoot right at it. It is amazing how well that gets targets to breaking for the neophytes.
i started shooting clays when i was 8, started with skeet, and shot that all the time with sporting clays and five stand mixed in here and there...got quite good at the clay game. when i turned twelve i basically quit shooting clays and spend my weekends hunting. shot a lot of grouse and pheasant. lots of snap shooting. a year ago i got back into the sporting clays game, and found id gotten quite atrocious at it. all those years of snap shooting birds had ruined my patience on the clays course. eventually though after a few trips i worked out the kinks. now im pretty efficient at busting clays, and killing birds.
Most days I'm batting 500 or better shooting birds. Really wouldn't want to improve on that. I want to spend as much time as possible in the field. The quicker I fill the bag, the sooner I have to go home.
To nchunt101: Just say ready and have the puller throw it when they feel like it. This would represent field shooting more.
Trapper VIC: I am glad we don't hunt together as it is not ethical or safe to shoot birds that are others to shoot at first. Come to the Iowa State Sporting Clays Shoot this summer and I will kick your brass :)
Also please check your spelling before you post !
The problem with shooting 50% in the field is that when you only get one flock of geese, one rooster flushing or one set of ducks that work you all day, then you better be more competant than 50%.
I'm in total agreement with the fact that a hunt should not be judged by the weight of the game bag, but missing the only opportunity to get the skunk off my back is the stuff bad dreams are made of, plus you get ugly looks from your dog.
I think I'll continue to hone my skills on the clay target range off season and let the naysayers beware.
The excitement of the pheasant or grouse bursting into the air, results in many hunters not shouldering their gun properly, and firing too quickly. A calmer shot with a proper lead brings better results.
This seems to happen to me too. hmm.. I never thought about it though. At the beginning of the season I always lead my shot too much. Maybe I'm just rusty lol
I know a few people that can hit lots of clays but couldn't hit a bird with a punt gun. And vice-versa, I know bird guys that can not hit clays to save their lives. I also know guys that can hit both quite regularily so it all depends on the shooters concentration to me.
The waterfowl season after I took up sporting clays (I shot over 3,000 targets an a 1000 registered targets) I had six perfect duck hunts shooting six ducks with six shells. I have watched several new hunters make great progress due to practice on clays. There is never enough shooting most hunting to develop good form.
All of the clay target games have helped me, but sporting clays has helped the most. I see better and I seem to read what the birds better. I shoot a lot of triples each year since I have shot more.
People who say that target guys can't hit a real bird are just compensating because they can't hit any clays.
I like to shoot clays and pheasants. Although my favorite target of all time is the clay rabbit
I think the advantage to shooting clays is quickness. I have gone frome a 12 t0 a 20 GA pheasant hunting so I won't tear them up. Most bird hunters i shoot with hesitate. If they hesitate its my bird! I'm only fair at sporting clays but enjoy it emencely. Plus courses very in difficulty. I might shoot a 40 at one place and a 29 at another. Too many sporting clay courses are set up too difficult. To get shooters involved and wanting them to return use the kis method. If you are looking for competition you already know where to go!
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