.505 Gibbs, oh my word. Add the .500 Jeffery (12.7 Schuler) for good measure. That's like downing a double whisky and using tequila to rinse the palate.

The story of the Gibbs and the Rigby needs a continuity editor, in my opinion. The story goes that Rigby got "exclusive" rights to the Magnum Mauser (the "true magnum" of .416 Rigby/.378 Weatherby proportions, before the .375H&H which turns out to be just "magnum-length") in England, forcing its competitors like Westley-Richards to resort to odd designs like the .425, which required surgery of the standard '98 action (to allow the case to fit) and the rebating of the rim (to allow the use of a common Mauser bolt/bolt face).

Rigby meanwhile, was free to design at its own sweet time, from a clean sheet, as long as the round fits the magnum Mauser. Which it introduced in 1911, in the form of the legendary .416 Rigby ("Rigby's Special .416 Bore for Big Game", in true British fashion). It was "revolutionary", modern looking, long-necked, sharp shouldered, minimal body taper, no rebated rims, and an operating pressure of about 18 British or long tons. The large size was to allow the round to burn temperamental cordite in sunny Africa without spiking pressures, ensuring safety and reliability. Performance? Equal to the nitro rounds in kinetic energy, 5,000 ft-lbs at the spout. Today, it is considered one of the "classic-est" rifle rounds, bolt-action or otherwise.

Except there was also the .505 Gibbs. Introduced also in 1911 (1910 in some accounts), and able to fit only in the true magnum Mauser, which was licensed only to Rigby. If you place it side-by-side with the .416 Rigby, it looks like the Rigby's big brother. Same sharp shoulders, same long neck, same minimal body taper, same lack of a rebated rim, even similar operating pressure. Except bigger in every respect.

Hmmm. Did Rigby design both rounds? Did Gibbs design both rounds? Did one plagiarize the other shamelessly? Did one spy on the other? Did the Gibbs company gain access to magnum Mausers in exchange for ideas?

Or maybe something less sinister: Did George Gibbs and John Rigby share notes? Was there an intellectual and business partnership we don't know about? Why is the Rigby a superstar from the beginning while the Gibbs is only enjoying its popularity now?

Oh, I remember, this was about the end of the magnum era. Sorry Dave. Maybe shooters now realize that the field performance of rounds, using field grade barrels and lengths, isn't what it's trumped to be on paper. Maybe shooters also realize that while their .308 only makes 2,600fps with a carbine-length Savage 99 or Remington Model Seven, it's still pretty damn good performance, knocking big game dead, and actually, quite flat-shooting. (See exhibit under ".416 Rigby", considered flat-shooting with 350-gr. bullets at 2,500fps.)

Maybe they realized the .25-06 and .270 are pretty much all you need, magnums without the name and the noise.

Moose hit it on the nose.

Shot placement means more than how hard you hit the animal. Well placed > large round.

Let's see...I've been shooting my 257 Roberts for almost 50 years without any guilt at all. It has never let me down. When I want to shoot something larger than a pronghorn or deer I go to my "heavy rifle", a 7X57 mauser. It's handled everything in the elk/moose class. I'm glad to hear that our younger comrads have started to see the light. I have a young friend who bought both a 300 and a 338 magnum. Neither of them he really likes, and the cost of ammo for the 338 is almost $70 a box. He's having problems getting the 338 to print and it's costing him a fortune. Finally, he saw the light! He decided just to use his 30-06 next year.

Don't expect me to put away my .257 Weatherby Mag. or my 300WSM and deer hunt with my .223. Ain't gonna happen.

If there's a trend of going "small", then I don't see it as any better than a trend of "going big". No matter the caliber, the shooter has to be a marksman.

Magnum calibers make sense in certain situations. I wouldn't like to see hunters trending to hunt large animals with pea-shooters because they don't like recoil.

I like the trend of milder cartridges. I myself went from shooting a .30-06 and a .300 Mag to a 7mm-08 and shooting has never been more pleasant. Most of the deer I've shot with the little cartridge have been DRT -- Dead Right There.

The above comments bring several thoughts to mind. My needs and uses may differ from most folks Many of the places I hunt do not allow ARs so I disregard them along with most of their calibers. Newer optics make accurate shooting easier. However, far to many hunters substitute technology for frequent practice, big mistake in my experience. Even light recoil seems like a lot if you do not spent time shooting.

There will always be a place for magnum chambered bullets as long as there are long shots on windy days vs. large animals. A 300 magnum will make something just as dead as a 30-30, 30/06, or 30-40 Krag, but my 300 Wby will hit with more speed and be able to do such from a greater distance. If I hunted in areas where animals are taken at less than 150yds I could use a 30-30 w/o a problem. That is not the case as animals are almost always in the 300+ yard category AND the wind in SW Kansas can be quite difficult to compensate for.
The recoil issue is really a judgement by the shooter. If you can get accustomed to it, you're fine. If you can't and you really have to stick to that chambering, you can always get a muzzle break or a Pacymayer-like recoil pad. A good friend has a break on his 300 Wby due to shoulder and neck surgery making it more difficult for him to take the recoil. A break is about $160-180, but a new rifle is a lot more than that so getting the muzzle break was a cost-effective way to continue to hunt (with a very good rifle).

My computer battery expired in mid sentence, sort of like my mind. I have never been a fan of the new super mags. feel trying to turn a huge mag into a long range rifle is not good for most hunters. When I began serious big game hunting most Americans used 270, 06, 300 H&H, 375. Most of our hunters had never heard of a 416 Rigby let alone some of the more exotic calibers. I guess my point is knowledge and technology today is pretty amazing. Have always felt the super mags fad would dwindle due to noise and punishment.

On the other hand, for those of us who spend too much time in the vicinity of dangerous game better be prepared. Preparation means different comfort zones to different people. What works best for one may not for another. African hunting for plains game plus cape buffalo I use an 06 or 300 Win Mag, plus a 416 Rigby. If only plains game delete the 416. Elephant, my light rifle is a 416, heavy any of the following, 450 Ackley, 460 Short A-Square, 500 Jeffery. Double 470 Nitro or 500 Nitro. If was limited to one rifle would take my beat up 416

Magnum development may slow but sooner or later someone will want a reall hot rod in their AR. Then that race will begin or maybe it's already begun.

Dave, I'm a big 308 or 7-08 fan but my go-to rifle is my Mountain Ti 300wsm with a swarovski scope Talley rings and bases 6 3/4 pounds just makes gun carrying a breeze and accomplishes anything i wish very efficient. I call it my 308 magnum but would make me just as happy if it were 7-08

DSMbirddog,

Actually, the .300 Remington SAUM was once offered by DPMS in their "AR-10" platform. The story was, the slightly bigger .300 WSM was the original choice (more popular, stable supply), but the case required more "surgery" to the gun's internals, and the WSM case crumpled when cycled violently by the AR-10. The Rem. SAUM case was small enough to fit readily in (as Wayne Van Zwoll points out, the SAUM rounds are the only beltless shortmags that fit the Model Seven) and the SAUM brass proved resistant to crumpling. They were hoping it would be adopted as a military sniper rifle with longer reach than the .308

But... there were apparently no takers, or maybe they never sorted other bugs out, and the gun is no longer available. Also, someone figured out how to fit the more popular WSM case and make it survive the violent trip in the AR-10's belly. And thus ended what might have been the last chance for the Remington SAUM line to survive.

Plus, if you want more power for the AR-10, just have it in .338 Federal.

I have always been a fan of Big Bore calibers, and have owned a 7MM Rem Mag when I lived in North Dakota. I liked that rifle for the long range work there. Now I know the 7mm is not a huge caliber, but it had a nice kick to it that back my twenties didn't bother that much since I would reload/shoot 40 to 50 rounds per range visit. PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT snd don't let anyone BS you that it does not, so get a caliber you can shoot comfortably and SHOOT THE DARN THING! OVER THE YEARS NOW,as for here in Michigan, most of my deer/black bear killin` been done with the .270, .45/70, and 12 gauge slugs..this year the .35 Whelen is gonna get some field time.

If I never had to shoot past 200 yards or so, I would revert to my .257 Roberts, .308 Win and .35 Whelen for anything that walks or crawls in North America. But since I hunt places that require shooting at greater ranges on occasion, I will continue using more potent, faster calibers like 7mm and .300 Weatherby's.

Slightly diff subject...does anyone have any experience loading 44 Rem Mag with 240 gr XTP's using Winchester 296? I normally use H110-24gr.
Thanks,
Duff

To Gtbigsky: I've been hunting with a Browining A-bolt Composite Stalker in 7mm-08 for 11 years. I prefer the 140 grain offerings, Winchester Supreme Ballistic Tip and the Federal Accu-bond for whitetails and hogs. I've taken whitetails from 5 yds out to 200 yds without having to take a follow-up shot. As Dave once said of the 7mm-08, "Speaks softly and knocks stuff flat". Hope this helps.

Duff, lot-to-lot variance notwithstanding, the twain are the same.

I'm by no means saying I would like to see the magnums go I'm just saying I personly don't have a need for them. If I were shooting at elk or moose or something on a regular basis I might buy a 300win mag. I think if I ever get lucky enough to go hunting in Africa I'd probaly take my old 30-06 and a 416 Rigby or 375 H&H or something like that. I'have read A LOT about African hunting and it seems that plains game would go down to the 30-06 easy enough, and I know that rifle like the back of my hand. I had a 7mm-08 but I traded it, seemed to be a good gun it just wasn't as small as I'd hoped and so it went away. if I ever wear out my old 06 i'll probably go with the 7mm-8 for my deer gun or a 243 or a.... ah hell I'll get something. but It probably wont be a big magnum like the 7mm STW or the 300win or even a wsm or wssm.

Have found several AK47 rounds as I recall in at least four elephant I have killed. Most poachers like the spray and pray technique. The same has occurred in a couple of my Central Asian sheep. One round in one rams horn, another round in the fleshy part of the buttock of a nice Mongolian Argali. Fire power does not replace bullet placement.

DUFF, I do have a bit and it is 22.9grs WIN296 CCI Mag Pistol Primers & Federal cs. out of my 10" S&W 29 @1290fps over the chronograph(I lightly crimp). I have used other cases but after countless combinations the Smith liked Federal the best. Drop down to a 200 gr bullet with the same charge also will work like a charm as I like to trim branches with it and could shoot it all day.FOLLOW RELOADING MANUAL GUIDELINES

Duff, both powders are made by the same company. If you go to the Winchester "loading center" online they list the two powders side-by-each with identical PSI, wt and velocity numbers.

I think it was 2008 that they identified several powders as the same, namely W231 and HP-38, W296 and H110, and W540 and another I can't remember off the top of my head.

Still pays to work up each load using the correct data, but you're not going to get anything out of H110 that you won't see with W296 or vice-versa

To answer Gtbigsky: Best factory loads I have found are nosler partitions. muzzle velocity is 2800 fps give or take so you need to get something to open up long range at 200+. However, most of my shots are closer so I need something that will also not explode too much and will retain that back portion to push through bone or exit. Honest to goodness, most accurate load for me is 140 grain core-lokt soft points and it drops them like lightning. If I wasn't sighted in with partitions I would probably come full circle and just go back to the the ol green box specials. I have tried accubonds, fusions etc. Flat base bullets shoot better in my rifle. The hornady superperformance SSTs are erratic. Unfortunately I am getting transferred to Northern CA and must now get some TSX or Hornady GMX.......

Happy Myles, Glad to see you are well.

BTW Young Jon R. the lad you and others here helped is a soldier serving in the sandbox right now. I hear he may make the U.S Army a career.

My favorite rifle for East of the rockies is a 25-06 Kimber 8400 classic. For the West I'm sicking with my 300 Weatherby. Yes the ammo is high but that is somewhat mitigated by reloading. I do not notice the recoil in this particular rifle. This magnum vs non-magnum thing comes up every few years.

I like shooting my .22 LR. my AR, my .45 but my favorite is still my .460. You can shoot any weapon as long as you are taught how to use it and become a marksman with that Weapon.

You guys are missing out on a great part of the "magnum mania", after JimBob figures out he can't kill rabbits without a ubermagnum, I can pick up his .308 for a steal!

Being ancient...63..I admit I am a full fledged Weatherby guy..who hunts with a longbow..STRANGE..but I know one thing...your own good handloads,combined with actual shooting, and the hell with the computer age..when I hunted alot with rifles, a 3 1/2 in high at 100 yds was always more than adeguate to shot as far as I could see....in 1985 I dropped a six point bull elk at 483 steps, and with one shot...period..and using ONLY a lowly to some gun writers as too light on elk..a 270 Winch..in a Model 70 Featherlite to boot..and no range finder..a forest service "walker" I was hunting with measured the yards for both of us..actual world experience here and no BS

I was never caught up in the magnum craze. I had dropped enough deer in their tracks with an '06 by the time it came along to know I didn't need anything bigger. In fact I went smaller and have found the 7mm Mauser to be just as effective at short range and with a much lighter touch.

I have to admit every time I go to the range I see more AR type rifles. They used to be the exception and now they are the rule.

Everything said for the most part has made sense and I respect everyone's opinion but to say that the Magnum era may be coming to an end is kind of a bold statement. I am purchasing a Browning x-bolt in 7mm Rem mag or 300 Win mag to replace my T/C Prohunter. I have always been a fan of these calibers. I like the 270 and 30-06 next of all. Back in 1994 I was 14 and my grandpa gave me his 30-06 in Rem 700. I still have it but it is retired. I have a 35 Rem in Marlin 336 that I use for different situations and it does a fine job. I enjoy the confidence I have with the 7mm rem mag and 300 win mag. I also enjoy the variety of bullets these two calibers have and that is why I'd never hesitate to grab either when heading in the field. In my opinion the 7mm mag family and the 300 mag family are mild in recoil. But that is me. I've shot a 338 win mag and noticed a difference but most haven't shot one. The 338 mag is getting into big gun and big recoil but it is also very tolerable and accurate for such a hulk. Ammo for the 7mm Rem mag and 300 win mag isn't too painful unless your comparing it to surplus 223 ammo. The ammo for my 35 Rem. is actually selling for more than my magnum ammo. In my opinion if you want something really cheap to shoot don't cuss out your big game rifle, go buy a 220 swift, 22-250, or plain 22. The 17 hmr is nice but more expensive to shoot than a 22 long. The little 22 is a hoot and a good excuse for the whole family to get out sling lead and hone shooting skills. You can also find these guns used all over for less than 100 dollars to as high as you want to spend. They are supported in the aftermarket extremely well and you can go wrong spending about 20 dollars on a 1000 rds. I know people who use their deer rifles as a plinker which is fine but not really what it was intended for. No point shooting out a good barrel. We all have differences in opinion so that my two cents. Take care all

Ralph the Rifleman,

I have had great range results from 225 Accubonds sitting on top of 54.2 grains of Accurate 2460 @ 2,718 fps over the chrony. MAX Book load according to Accurate Powder is 54.0 gr, but I would ease up to that slowly and only in a bolt gun. Also great velocities out of RL 15 and Ramshot TAC. The 2460 load shoots under 1/2" from a cold barrel at 100 yards, so I experimented no further. The Federal 225 Trophy Bonded Bear Claw is a deadly load in the field as well.

Again*

GTBIGSKY,
Try 48.5 grs H4350 behind 139 gr. Hornady Spire Point bullets and the primer of your choice. My 20" bbl Classic Compact m/70 shoots this very well, as does my oldest son's m/7 Rem and my youngest son's m/700.
My chronograph says 2850 FPS out of my m/70, have not checked the other two. This load kills deer dead, from 80 pounds to 280 pounds.

Just a couple more thoughts on the " Magnum Era". You suggested I might have a something to add to Mr Garcia's excellent words on the history of the 416 Rigby.
As i recall from my readings, the 404 Jeffery was the "issue" rifle in the British colonies for control work, and even today is more widely owned than the 416. German colonists preferred the 9.3x62.
After WWII, the large majority of African safaris were by Americans. Brits, for the most part, had stopped producing ammo for their many fine African calibers. However, here in the States, 375 ammo was reasonably available. It is a wonderful cartridge, and sort of took over as a client round.
Along came Bob Ruark, who helped make famous Harry Selby, Jack OConnor also extolled the virtues of the 416 Rigby which reinvented this great round.
When I first began using the 416 the brass was as scarce as hens teeth. You may recall reloaders milling belts off of large Weatherby brass, then resizing and trimming to fit the 416. Good British cases could cost six bucks a piece.

A parting thought, if you have a cape buffalo blowing blood and snot at close quarters, a 400 grain bullet trumps a 300 grain round almost every time

s

There never was a Magnum era for me, but in the Northeast there are no animals that require a Magnum. I ordered a custom .257 bob a half a year ago because i thought it the perfect deer cartridge and i can pass the rifle to my kids in a few years. I'll pass on my .30-06 when they're a bit older and able to shoulder it, by then i'll not mind the lighter recoil of something less as my right shoulder ain't 100%. I will admit i've i've always wanted a .257 weatherby or a .264win mag, but the type of hunting i do doesn't warrant it. If i come across one in the classifieds i'll jump on it.

I fail to see the point of this long-range shooting craze, aside from selling product. Last elk I shot I took at inside 10 yards within a 308. I spotted it 500 yard away and could have taken a long, careful shot at that distance -- but enjoyed the stalk immensely instead. I would rather blow a 500 yard stalk than ace a 500 yard shot. Why let the bullet have the fun? And one other thing I've noticed -- the guys who brag about killing at long distance never seem to brag about the broken legs and cripples they leave along the way.

My late two cents: Roger on the cripples and lost animals. I have seen a bunch of that with non-magnum caliber shooters more than the magnum shooers, but that is a most unscientific survey. Nothing worse than pushing a rifle way out beyond it's limits after watching too many hunting shows and internet BS. I only bumped up to a couple of magnum rifles the past few years after passing on doable shots outside my comfort zone with "standard" calibers. If you are going to field a magnum rifle, learn to shoot it.

For the .270 WSM, I would prefer that over the standard one, of which I am not a fan. A couple of guys in our party have used them over the years on deer and elk quite successfully. Not a wimpy cartridge by any means, but sort of an in between one in my opinion.

Young hunters typically have smaller budgets, and so it makes sense they'd want a weapon with a lower cost of ownership. Also having an AR vs. a traditional bolt action drives shooting a lot more rounds so cost of ammo is a much bigger factor. For example when I am at the range with my 7mm Rem. Mag, I might shoot 2 boxes of ammo in a day, I've seen guys with AR's shoot more than 40 rounds in one rotation.
I do think as the young hunters grow older and their income increases the attraction of the larger caliber weapons will grow. Also ammo like Remmington's managed recoil makes my 7mm Rem Mag kick less than a .223 and is still lethal out to 200yds. I have found using these rounds helps me become more a more consistent shooter and carries over when I load the regular powder loads.

Hmmmand

I feel compelled to call BS on your claim that a Managed Recoil round for a 7mm Rem Mag recoils like a .223! Remington's catalog clearly claims and illustrates that a 7mm Rem Mag Managed Recoil round far exceeds that of a .243 Win., which is still quite manageable for all but the wee folk. Tell us what the difference is between 2 boxes of 7mm mag and 40 rounds of AR ammo.