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Gun Test: Rock River Arms LAR-15 Fred Eichler Series Predator

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May 10, 2012

Gun Test: Rock River Arms LAR-15 Fred Eichler Series Predator

By David E. Petzal

Here’s a good reason not to be a coyote, or any other objectionable form of animal life. Mr. Eichler, who is a varmint hunter of note, has collaborated with Rock River Arms to produce a totally cool MSR with all the right bells and whistles. There are a great many specs here, so let’s get to them.

Starting at the muzzle, the Predator has a tuned and ported muzzle brake (Why does the rifle in the photo not have one? We will get to that shortly.), a 16-inch, stainless, medium-heavy, lapped, cryo-treated barrel, low-profile gas block, free-floating handguard (whose vent holes are in the shape of paw prints, which I find almost unbearably cute), mid-length gas system, all sorts of rails, a truly superior (3.5 pounds, dead clean) two-stage trigger inside an oversized trigger guard, Hogue pistol grip, and a choice of an adjustable or non-adjustable stock. The barrel has a Wylde chamber, so it can use either civilian .223 or military 5.56 ammo. Twist is 1-8, and it handles 55-grain to 77-grain bullets just fine, although I found the rifle had distinct preferences about what it liked and didn’t like. Weight is 7.6 pounds, and overall length with the non-adjustable stock is a highly compact 36 inches. Excuse me; I need to catch my breath.

RRA guarantees that this rifle will group in ¾-inch at 100 yards. I found that with match ammo I could equal that, and with 77-grain Federal Match ammo, I could get ½ inch. However, the Predator will not shoot everything well; with some brands of ammo it didn’t like it would group in 2 inches.

Two things about the Predator jump out at you: First, it’s a very high-quality gun that’s put together with a lot of care. A collection of parts it ain’t. Second, you won’t have to go tearing off components and substituting other stuff. What’s on here, works, so leave it alone.

Now, why did my rifle not have a muzzle brake when it’s standard equipment? Because under the weird specs New York State imposes on MSRs, a muzzle brake would probably be illegal on this rifle. Or maybe it is legal. No one really is sure, so RRA acted on the side of caution. New York State assumes that if a semi-auto rifle with a muzzle brake fell into my hands I would be come a menace to the public. What can you say about that kind of thinking? In any event, if the rifle did have a muzzle brake, it would undoubtedly shoot even better than it did, and kick less, which was hardly at all.

The Predator lists for $1,395, which is fine. I look beady-eyed at the prices on a lot of MSRs, but not this one. It’s obvious where the money went. Also, Rock River Arms informs me that there is a wait on the order of 6 to 8 weeks for these guns. They can’t keep up with demand for any of their firearms, and the Predator is no exception. But I like this little rifle tremendously; it’s worth the wait. Rockriverarms.com

Comments (50)

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from deadeyedick wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

I have always shied away from MSR type rifles, lately I've been geeting the itch to go out and buy one so your blog was very timely for me. From your article I have enough info to make a solid choice.
Do you know how many states still ban semi-auto rifles. for hunting purposes? Pennsylvania is one. A person would be well advised to check state laws before purchasing a MSR.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

Some People don’t like pizza. ‘Nuf said by this gray-haired old man.

On you fitting the terrorist profile: I recall being 16-17 walking down residential streets with my school chums carrying shotguns to hunt rabbits and squirrels along the RR. High school kid [s] doing this today would bring out the Hostage Negotiators and a SWAT Team.

Sign of the End of Times.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from dtownley wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

I like Freds enthusiasm, his family, his firearm, and where he chooses to hunt, though I am .223 tight if a chance afforded itself a custom 6.5 TCU bbl. in a simular model would keep me off the street.
Fred whoops & hollars a bit but is a wealth of info to me and helpful to his clients.
I would not scoff at a signature model exactly like this.

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from Chad Beck wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

If you take that forward mounted rail that is sitting at the 3 o'clock position and rotate it up to the 2 o'clock position and mount a small, zero magnification scope. You will have far reaching/close quarters gun. Simply cant the gun inward when things get a little hot and nothing gets away. Got the idea from my military buddy. Has come in quite handy on several occasions.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

That thing is sure ugly. I don't care how good it shoots, I just couldn't be seen with one of them. I know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I have seen car jacks that looked more attractive than that thing, and anyone who would argue the point ... well, I'd have to wonder about what they go home to every night. Just kidding. It is pretty hard on the eyes though.

-1 Good Comment? | | Report
from brktrt-18 wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

It would be much better without the paw prints and the eyes. Oh course my 4 year old would like the paw prints

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Douglas wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

What are the optics you got mounted there?

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

My Bushmaster shoots plenty of Minute-of-Wile E. with HSM 55 gr softpoints, and lots purdier.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ALJoe wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

I am sure it is a wonderfully performing gun. I'm sure it will make coyotes, bobcats, etc. quiver when they see the business end of that machine. Personally I don't think I could ever hunt with anything that ugly.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Puffy wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

Dave, you are a rifleman, an icon, a real inspiration to those of us who aspire to be true wielders of the long gun; however, you have gone too far. It is beyond reproach that the weapon pictured ever be referred to as “unbearably cute.” Yes, the paw print venting is a little much, perhaps kitschy even; but unbearably cute? I think not. Consider this an official reprimand. (now slap yourself on the wrist, and don’t be all namby-pamby when you do it either)

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from jjas wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

David Petzal quote "free-floating handguard (whose vent holes are in the shape of paw prints, which I find almost unbearably cute)".........

I agree with the previous poster that the paw thing is a bit over the top. I am a bit surprised to find Mr. Petzal finds them "unbearably cute"...

Regardless, I don't own a black rifle, a modern sporting rifle, an AR (or whatever the "new" name is now) and I doubt I will. Not because I think they are evil or ugly, but because I have no use for one @ this time.

Wonder what's next? A pink model endorsed by Tiffany Lakosky?

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from buckhunter wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

Had the pleasure of meeting Fred Eichler and his wife at the SCI convention in Vegas this year. We spoke for a long time about hunting shows, his new bow and varmint hunting. He is a top-notch individual with a real passion for the sport.

I cannot say much about his new gun but if he spent as much time and effort on the gun as he did his new bow, I'm sure it's a fine piece of equipment.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from larson014 wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

thanks for finally coming into the AR game (a little late) but as you can see there are still holdouts...

looks like a nice rifle, except i don't like that stock, it looks a little heavy, and nonadjustable?

paw prints are fine... makes them unique

it does look weird without a flash hider/compensator...

glad i am not in NYS

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from Silverback wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

I actually just got a RRA AR15 in .223. Almsot the same except, all black, 18" barrel and all rails instead of paw prints. I put the new Leupold AR 6 x 12 and that this shoots amazing. Look at thier web site and see. I mean awesome.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from chuckles wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

What is the point of a muzzle brake on a .223? To go deaf faster?
I sure it is helpful when a pack of coyotes storms your position.
I'm sorry but I still agree with Jim Zumbo when it comes to whatever PC name you want to call them. MSR's indeed, what will the marketing dept come up with next?
Thank you in advance for the red ink.

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from davidpetzal wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

To Douglas: That is one of my much-beat-up Bushnell Elite 4200 2.5X-10X scopes. I have three of them, and they have all been pounded without mercy through the years, but they still work fine.

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from Ontario Honker ... wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

My sentiments exactly, Chuckles. No red ink from this old boy. However, I'm sure we can expect to be slammed by the paramilitary ugly duckling lovers who are so intolerant of the least little criticism of their current toys-for-a-day.

-1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tim Platt wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

I love the gun, the barrel sounds like it has had every trick anyone has ever imagined already done to it. The over sized trigger guard and superior trigger also are what every rifle needs, and I even love the paw print vents, but I don't understand why all of these "MSR's?" have to have such an unorthodox stock. That turns me off, and I would have to suggest that it is why so many others are calling it ugly.

The bolt action hunter is aging and slowly but surely becoming an endangered species. It is a fact of life, and no matter how much we hate it, it is what the future holds. Much like the gun laws in NYC...

My real question is why MSR's? Weren't these just semi-automatic rifles and then assault rifles and then black rifles and now what? MSR's???

Google says MSR's are magnetic stripe readers, Microsoft Research, molten salt reactors, medical-grade silicon rubber, Michigan Shore Railroad, main supply route.... but not Modular Sniper Rifles. I am personally offended by that name. I own a semi-automatic 5.56. And that's all I have to say about that.

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from RockySquirrel wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph; Not sure the bolt is dead. I bought a new 22-250 Rem700 and that is the most accurate rifle I have ever shot.

I (currently) see no need for an AR, BLACK RIFLE or MSR myself; But I admit one day on the range positively drooling over the .22 from S&W that someone brought along. If I was to get one, that .22 would be the one,

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from Tim Platt wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

The bolt is not dead, I hunt with a Ruger No. 1 so even the falling block action is not now nor ever will be dead. I am just saying AR style rifles are all I see in the gun stores in my area so apparently someone is buying the hell out of them and they will certainly be showing up in the field in mass quantities some time in the future much to our chagrin. Change is inevitable.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Well, Petzal did call the paw prints "unbearably" cute. I'll go with that.

If I was doing a house-to-house sweep in Falujah or the south side of Chicago, I would think a 16" barrel would be about right. But a varmint gun could use a barrel longer than that. With these little mouse guns, all you have is velocity; take that away and you have a noisy .218 Bee. If you are getting .75" accuracy with this little rifle, you can take shots at long enough range to justify the extra distance another 600 fps would deliver.

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from RandyMI wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Mr. Petzal asked, "What can you say about that kind of thinking?" Uninformed? Presumptuous?

As for this style rifle, please do not bring one over to my backyard range. Nor my hunting camp. (Not) sorry..... :-]

-4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Shuck M. wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

I don't know. I've no doubt the thing can perform as Dave said, but...plastic and paw prints? Bell bottoms and leg warmers were de riguere once too. These things make me want to work up a bpcr round.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from 99explorer wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

The styling on the MSR's remind me of the cars of the 1950's. Prior to that time, form followed function. But during the 1950's, form gained supremacy, and the engineers had to work with whatever space the stylists left for the interior.
Tailfins emerged and grew larger until 1959, when their use was finally justified with the pretense that they served as "directional stabilizers."
I subscribe to the belief that when a product is designed from the outside in, it is for marketing reasons. Thus it is with the MSR.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

I agree with the majority here that this is one kinda ugly rifle, but let's face it the AR design was designed for pure function and not fancy! What I find amazing is the accuracy out of a 16inch barrel! For being ugly, it can sure shoot like a house a fire!

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from 99explorer wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

I believe that sleeve at the forend was designed to protect the shooter's hand from being burned by an overheated barrel, an important function in military combat with a fully-automatic weapon.

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from O Garcia wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

I like that RRA is marching to its own drumbeat. They're offering the big bore .458 SOCOM (can't get any more tacti-cool than that name), for example, as their deer/boar whacker. Their large trigger guard has more generous space than any, I think.

Their .308/7.62 AR, called LAR-08, is the most unique version of the "AR-10" rifle pattern. Since the AR-10 was never really accepted as a military rifle (lost to the M14), there is really no Mil-Spec so parts are not [always] interchangeable between brands. Where they're common is the magazine. Most brands (Knight's Armament, LWRCI, POF, LaRue, LMT, DPMS/Remington, JP Ent.) accept the "Stoner" magazine.

However, Armalite, the company that employed Eugene Stoner when he designed the AR, is ironically, not using the Stoner magazine, but is using modified M14 mags.

Rock River takes unique to the extreme in their 7.62 "AR-10" by:
1)using the FN-FAL magazine (common outside the US, especially in Africa, but rare in the US)
2) having a lower that has, not only ambidextrous controls, but mirror-image controls. The magazine release buttons on the right and left side are identical and directly opposite. The bolt release is between the mag well and the trigger guard and is pushed downward. Needless to say, it is ambidextrous and looks and feels the same whether you're left or right handed. Robinson Armaments uses a similar system in its XCR rifle. (Other manufacturers also offer ambidextrous controls, but the placement of the buttons/switches on the right side of the receiver are not the same as on the left.)

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from Ontario Honker ... wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Aren't they now saying MSR stands for Modern Sporting Rifle? Or is that somebody's idea of a sarcastic joke? I confess I'm totally out of the loop on this paramilitary stuff.
What the heck is all the fuss about over-size trigger guards? Seems like a waste of metal (or plastic, as the case may be). What purpose do they serve? Like someone is going to be out bucking the brush with that mouse gun!Sounds very much like 007's analogy of designing stuff from the outside in as per the big fifties cars.

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from Ontario Honker ... wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Speaking of those 50s cars being designed from the outside in, just pulling the hood up on any one of them pretty much exemplified 007's point. Even the "big" 327 cubic inch Chev V-8s hardly filled half their compartments. Remove the hood and you could literally crawl in and stand beside most of the six cylinder engines. I know, because I did many times. And all that empty wasted space between the radiators and grillwork! I have to admit the worst offender in that category was the 1960s-1970s Olds Toronado. Cripes, you could stuff a good-sized deer in that hole. Again, great analogy, 007.

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from Moose1980 wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

OHH, I may be wrong, but a lot of coyote hunting is done in the dead of winter. So I think the over sized trigger guard allows for a gloved finger to get in their easier. I however will stick to my Ruger M77 for yotes. My Stag AR is just for the range, and they sure are a heck of a lot of fun to shoot.

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from PbHead wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Dave, I agree with the footprints. Think about the possibilities: scurrying squirrels, leaping deer, Ms. Cuthbert, lots of possibilities here.

Dave did you cut your gun writing teeth covering the great lever vs. bolt debate about a century ago? Maybe it was the Schutzen vs. Military style target shooting. I can't remember.

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from PbHead wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Dave, I agree with the footprints. Think about the possibilities: scurrying squirrels, leaping deer, Ms. Cuthbert, lots of possibilities here.

Dave did you cut your gun writing teeth covering the great lever vs. bolt debate about a century ago? Maybe it was the Schutzen vs. Military style target shooting. I can't remember.

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from 99explorer wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

It certainly makes a fashion statement. "Hey, look at me!"
There is nothing novel about a .223 predator rifle with a scope, but with all the gadgets on that thing, we overlook the fact that it is a semi-auto, and prone to stoppages. Apparently not an important consideration with predator hunters.

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from Ontario Honker ... wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Thanks for clarifying, Moose. That definitely makes sense. I was envisioning that the trigger guard was more massive rather than the hole being bigger.

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from davidpetzal wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

To PB Head To PB Head: I published my first article on the great percussion versus flintlock debate, and stated that while the percussion system showed promise, it would never replace a good frizzen.

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from RipperIII wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

I really, really want a set up like this, but funds are tight right now, so I gnash my teeth and wish.
What caliber would be best? 5.56/.223 or .308?
I'd like to keep the pelts of any critter that I shot.

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from Ontario Honker ... wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Ripper, you can probably build your own varmint gun at a fraction of the price of this thing. And it would be a gun that is a reflection of who you are, not who the marketers succeed in making you think you should be. A good Mauser action can still be had fairly reasonably (or they could a couple of years ago), lots of outfits making barrels, triggers, stocks, etc. You just need a licensed gunsmith/dealer to order the action from the vendor. The rest you can have shipped directly to you. Gunsmith will have to seat the barrel. The rest you can do at home. I have known guys who even taught themselves how to do the checkering and they did fine work too (not like the above beast has any checkering to offer!).

I have the Springfield my dad rebuilt for me, and my younger brother has the one Dad built for himself. They are both beautiful guns. More importantly, those are heirlooms that really mean something. Each has MANY stories from the field to tell, but even if they didn't they'd still have my dad's hands all over them. Make something like that for your kids rather than hand down to them some factory mass-produced "thing" like the above.

For the life of me I cannot understand why everyone thinks they need an automatic of any sort - ugly or not - to hunt coyotes. An auto is the last thing I'd want to be hunting with when it's twenty below. Also, varmint hunting is typically one shot and you're through situations. Using an auto would seem to be overkill. This appears to me to be a blatant case of marketing boys creating demand out of thin air.

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from dale freeman wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

To Mark 1#####@#
I REMEMBER, AS A 5TH. GRADER, bEING IN A SCHOOL PLAY AND ALL THE BOYS HAD TO BRING A .bb GUN AND I HAD NONE, SO i BROUGHT MY .410 SHOTGUN AND EVERYTHING WENT JUST FINE.
lOOKED LIKE NO TEACHERS EVEN SAW THE SHOTGUN BUT BOY DID ALL THE BOYS.

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from Trapper Vic wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Damn it, I told my wife i didn't need any more guns. Now I gotta put this one on my bucket list. I been waiting for the right AR to come out. Looks like its here!

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from O Garcia wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

the term modern sporting rifle may have been first used in the 1960's in an article on Guns & Ammo. It was an article about the AR-18.

For those who are not familiar, the AR-18 was a rival design to the AR-15 within Armalite, it was intended to be a cheaper alternative, using a stamped/welded steel sheet receiver instead of the AR-15's forged aircraft grade aluminum. It shares the AR-15's 7-lug bolt (a Melvin Johnson design that some fans of Eugene Stoner claim is Stoner's design.) It also uses a short-stroke gas piston with multi-piece rod and vent holes that looks eerily similar to LWRCI's/Leitner-Weitz/Land Warfare Resources (drumroll please) "revolutionary" gas piston system. (Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, as they say.) Ironically, while the AR-18 never really sold either as a military or as a commercial rifle, its DNA lives today in the current British service rifle (SA-85 series) and in the various multi-lug, piston drive rifles that are being touted as the Holy Grail of reliability today (name it, Remington ACR, FN SCAR, H&K G36).

I understand that to many here, these inline stock, separate pistol grip, protruding magazine assemblies are ugly things and are insulting to the term "sporting rifle" but understand that in many Third World countries where people also want to bear arms for totally lawful purposes, these are often the only options. They don't have a market for sporting rifles (bolt, lever, pump, single-shot, etc.) like in America. Except maybe .22 rimfires. In some places in Africa, where lawlessness rules, the FN-FAL or HK-G3 is among the rifles that a professional guide relies on, specifically to deal with two-legged monsters - poachers and bandits.

But to each his own.

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from DakotaMan wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Nice looking rifle! These things are deadly on varmints. I use a Bushmaster Varminter but the RRA Preditor looks nice too. I shoot prairie dogs out to 500 yards with mine and house flies at 100 yards. Although it is not as sporting as my trusty 25-06 on coyotes, it is clearly MUCH more deadly on running coyotes. The cross hairs stay on target in the event you miss or there is a "next coyote" to target. You can get almost get 10 well aimed shots off in the time it would take to get three shots off with my bolt rifle.

This RRA model will be a little slower and a little lighter too with the short barrel but it should be plenty accurate. I've been getting .25 MOA on average with 50g V-Maxs at 3450 fps. Not sure what the upper/lower tolerance is on Preditor but an accurizing wedge (to tighten fit between the upper and lower) helped me in getting to .25. So did great case preparation and custom loading. I seldom see a bolt rifle on the shooting range that can beat it.

The reliability has never been a problem for me. It is always ready to go and it doesn't give coyotes much of a chance once you get accustomed to it. I would never put a muzzle break on it because of noise and weight. I can't quite see my bullet hit in the scope but it doesn't move more than a couple inches off the point of aim. They can keep all the rails as far as I am concerned as I don't need to hang much on it for preditor hunting.

Its not as pretty as a Weatherby but if the coyotes are getting too thick, I have to leave the Weatherby in the safe and use the black gun.

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from jr9893 wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

too bad you cant hunt with semi-autos in PA

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from RES1956 wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Whoda thunk an AR platform rifle could/would every shoot that good? Pretty cool.

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from O Garcia wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Nice one, DakotaMan, "accurizing wedge". Some soldiers in Iraq reportedly inserted strips of credit card through the space between upper and lower.

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from DakotaMan wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Ripper III,
I would advise using the .223 for varmints. The .308s kick like a young mule, take your scope way off target and the bullets keep bouncing across the prairie until they hit something (possibly a cow).

I have a lot tougher time hitting running coyotes with a .308 because of the much slower speed. I prefer the .223 speed to reduce lead and holdover. The .308 can get velocity over 3200 fps with 110g V-Maxs but it is a better for brush busting deer, elk and monster hogs than for varmint hunting.

I have no qualms about shooting deer with the .223 either as long as the bullet won't hit brush on the way to the deer. The .223 55g Combined Technology bullets seem to penetrate about as well as the .308 150g Sierra on deer out to 250 yards. We've also shot dozens antelope with them at ranges out to 500 yards (although most were within 250 yards) with no issues.

Some say the wind bothers the .223s but I say "You need to learn how to compensate for wind with ALL projectiles". Long range .223 windage isn't much different than .308 windage because of its higher initial velocity. For example, my neighbor at the range was missing 8 inch gongs at 500 meters with his $5,000 .338 Lapua in a 15 mph cross wind, I was able to rain 10 shot magazines into a 2 inch group right in the center of that gong with my .223 varminter with a shot every 2-3 seconds. He seemed shocked... most people do. The point is, if you have an accurate rifle and you know how to shoot, you will hit your target regardless of the caliber.

Regarding pelt preservation, the little 40-50g V-Max varmint bullets usually don't exit, leaving only a tiny entrance wound. They explode everything inside coyotes though and flatten them with shock instantly. The .308 exits with about 8 inches of the coyote and occassionally tears foxes in half. You could use full metal jackets with a .308 but I don't care for the way they ricochet. I enjoy shooting coyotes but I hate shooting cows or cowboys/cowgirls!

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from small game sportsman wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

thats a pretty sick gun

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from The_UTP wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Folks: When Petzal writes "almost unbearably cute" he means that he almost cannot bear those paw prints. Given that he is a tough old piece of meat who has borne quite a bit of nonsense and abuse in the gun writing business, it's not a trifling thing for him to write that the paw prints are nearly a deal breaker for him on this gun.

Regarding the AR platform, my sense is that they are more profitable for gun makers to produce than traditional arms, and that's why they're being pushed so hard on the gun writers. What boggles my mind is that we're talking so reverently about a $1,300 gun that shoots MOA. Um, you can very easily go to your nearest good gun shop and get a $250 used bolt-action rifle that will do that with a decent hand load. The AR was not designed to deliver heavy payloads with high accuracy at long distances like a bolt-action -- it's an anti-personnel weapon designed for use at close to medium range. Why spend so much hard-earned cash trying to make the platform do something it wasn't designed to do when there are other guns that can do it effortlessly?

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from 357 wrote 1 year 45 weeks ago

i think it's a pretty sharp looking gun, an AR platform something is on my life of things to buy/build. my bolt action savage 223 does the yotes in fine for now so i'm thinking that i'll be good for a while.

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from peterh wrote 1 year 30 weeks ago

I read most of the posts here and don't understand, if you don't like AR type rifles to begin with then why bother writing a non-objective totally unhelpful comment!!

I on the other hand will attempt to post an objective opinion on the new RRA Fred Eichler rifle. I say objective because I bought one and have been shooting it for several weeks now. I will start with the functioning, reliability and accuracy first, then I will say something about the aesthetics of the gun. I have now put over thousand rounds down range and the rifle has cycled and chambered every round with out one malfunction, so much for function and reliability, now for accuracy.

Using good quality ammunition the rifle for me has produced 100 yard .5 to 1.0 MOA groups. I have shot several bolt guns that would not do that. Now using several different Match ammo I was able to achieve groups in the 1/4 to .5 MOA. Now that out of a carbine size gun has to be impressive even to the most critical.

As far as weather you think the gun is ugly, because you don't like the paw print cut into the hand guard or you don't like or feel you have no need for a muzzle break, all I can say is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

As for me I like it, it was what some people saw ugly about the gun that I found interesting. It seemed to me there was an attempt by the designers to get away from the totally military look of most AR types and bring out a hunting aspect look that would be different and hopefully appealing to the hunter.

As I said, I like it. I think it's a neat gun and look forward to doing some varmint hunting with it this fall. Congrats to RRA and Fred.....

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from Brandon Collier wrote 1 year 17 weeks ago

Nice post peterh, I have always been old school but I have always been a accuracy nut. Now that the black gun craze has got to the point where you can buy a semi-auto that shoots MOA you have caught my attention. I am a coyote hunter, I have never had bull barrel bolt action weapons because of weight, I put my fox pro, stadium seat, bog pod, and my not as slim as I use to be for a long hike I want light weight. This gun has it, it is light, accurate, fast fallow up shots and lets face we all would pull the trigger 20 times as fast as we can at the range...It is the kid in us!!!

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from davidpetzal wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

To PB Head To PB Head: I published my first article on the great percussion versus flintlock debate, and stated that while the percussion system showed promise, it would never replace a good frizzen.

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from jjas wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

David Petzal quote "free-floating handguard (whose vent holes are in the shape of paw prints, which I find almost unbearably cute)".........

I agree with the previous poster that the paw thing is a bit over the top. I am a bit surprised to find Mr. Petzal finds them "unbearably cute"...

Regardless, I don't own a black rifle, a modern sporting rifle, an AR (or whatever the "new" name is now) and I doubt I will. Not because I think they are evil or ugly, but because I have no use for one @ this time.

Wonder what's next? A pink model endorsed by Tiffany Lakosky?

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from chuckles wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

What is the point of a muzzle brake on a .223? To go deaf faster?
I sure it is helpful when a pack of coyotes storms your position.
I'm sorry but I still agree with Jim Zumbo when it comes to whatever PC name you want to call them. MSR's indeed, what will the marketing dept come up with next?
Thank you in advance for the red ink.

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from Mark-1 wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

Some People don’t like pizza. ‘Nuf said by this gray-haired old man.

On you fitting the terrorist profile: I recall being 16-17 walking down residential streets with my school chums carrying shotguns to hunt rabbits and squirrels along the RR. High school kid [s] doing this today would bring out the Hostage Negotiators and a SWAT Team.

Sign of the End of Times.

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from ALJoe wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

I am sure it is a wonderfully performing gun. I'm sure it will make coyotes, bobcats, etc. quiver when they see the business end of that machine. Personally I don't think I could ever hunt with anything that ugly.

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from Puffy wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

Dave, you are a rifleman, an icon, a real inspiration to those of us who aspire to be true wielders of the long gun; however, you have gone too far. It is beyond reproach that the weapon pictured ever be referred to as “unbearably cute.” Yes, the paw print venting is a little much, perhaps kitschy even; but unbearably cute? I think not. Consider this an official reprimand. (now slap yourself on the wrist, and don’t be all namby-pamby when you do it either)

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from Tim Platt wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

The bolt is not dead, I hunt with a Ruger No. 1 so even the falling block action is not now nor ever will be dead. I am just saying AR style rifles are all I see in the gun stores in my area so apparently someone is buying the hell out of them and they will certainly be showing up in the field in mass quantities some time in the future much to our chagrin. Change is inevitable.

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from 99explorer wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

The styling on the MSR's remind me of the cars of the 1950's. Prior to that time, form followed function. But during the 1950's, form gained supremacy, and the engineers had to work with whatever space the stylists left for the interior.
Tailfins emerged and grew larger until 1959, when their use was finally justified with the pretense that they served as "directional stabilizers."
I subscribe to the belief that when a product is designed from the outside in, it is for marketing reasons. Thus it is with the MSR.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

I agree with the majority here that this is one kinda ugly rifle, but let's face it the AR design was designed for pure function and not fancy! What I find amazing is the accuracy out of a 16inch barrel! For being ugly, it can sure shoot like a house a fire!

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from O Garcia wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

I like that RRA is marching to its own drumbeat. They're offering the big bore .458 SOCOM (can't get any more tacti-cool than that name), for example, as their deer/boar whacker. Their large trigger guard has more generous space than any, I think.

Their .308/7.62 AR, called LAR-08, is the most unique version of the "AR-10" rifle pattern. Since the AR-10 was never really accepted as a military rifle (lost to the M14), there is really no Mil-Spec so parts are not [always] interchangeable between brands. Where they're common is the magazine. Most brands (Knight's Armament, LWRCI, POF, LaRue, LMT, DPMS/Remington, JP Ent.) accept the "Stoner" magazine.

However, Armalite, the company that employed Eugene Stoner when he designed the AR, is ironically, not using the Stoner magazine, but is using modified M14 mags.

Rock River takes unique to the extreme in their 7.62 "AR-10" by:
1)using the FN-FAL magazine (common outside the US, especially in Africa, but rare in the US)
2) having a lower that has, not only ambidextrous controls, but mirror-image controls. The magazine release buttons on the right and left side are identical and directly opposite. The bolt release is between the mag well and the trigger guard and is pushed downward. Needless to say, it is ambidextrous and looks and feels the same whether you're left or right handed. Robinson Armaments uses a similar system in its XCR rifle. (Other manufacturers also offer ambidextrous controls, but the placement of the buttons/switches on the right side of the receiver are not the same as on the left.)

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from Trapper Vic wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Damn it, I told my wife i didn't need any more guns. Now I gotta put this one on my bucket list. I been waiting for the right AR to come out. Looks like its here!

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from O Garcia wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

the term modern sporting rifle may have been first used in the 1960's in an article on Guns & Ammo. It was an article about the AR-18.

For those who are not familiar, the AR-18 was a rival design to the AR-15 within Armalite, it was intended to be a cheaper alternative, using a stamped/welded steel sheet receiver instead of the AR-15's forged aircraft grade aluminum. It shares the AR-15's 7-lug bolt (a Melvin Johnson design that some fans of Eugene Stoner claim is Stoner's design.) It also uses a short-stroke gas piston with multi-piece rod and vent holes that looks eerily similar to LWRCI's/Leitner-Weitz/Land Warfare Resources (drumroll please) "revolutionary" gas piston system. (Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, as they say.) Ironically, while the AR-18 never really sold either as a military or as a commercial rifle, its DNA lives today in the current British service rifle (SA-85 series) and in the various multi-lug, piston drive rifles that are being touted as the Holy Grail of reliability today (name it, Remington ACR, FN SCAR, H&K G36).

I understand that to many here, these inline stock, separate pistol grip, protruding magazine assemblies are ugly things and are insulting to the term "sporting rifle" but understand that in many Third World countries where people also want to bear arms for totally lawful purposes, these are often the only options. They don't have a market for sporting rifles (bolt, lever, pump, single-shot, etc.) like in America. Except maybe .22 rimfires. In some places in Africa, where lawlessness rules, the FN-FAL or HK-G3 is among the rifles that a professional guide relies on, specifically to deal with two-legged monsters - poachers and bandits.

But to each his own.

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from DakotaMan wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Nice looking rifle! These things are deadly on varmints. I use a Bushmaster Varminter but the RRA Preditor looks nice too. I shoot prairie dogs out to 500 yards with mine and house flies at 100 yards. Although it is not as sporting as my trusty 25-06 on coyotes, it is clearly MUCH more deadly on running coyotes. The cross hairs stay on target in the event you miss or there is a "next coyote" to target. You can get almost get 10 well aimed shots off in the time it would take to get three shots off with my bolt rifle.

This RRA model will be a little slower and a little lighter too with the short barrel but it should be plenty accurate. I've been getting .25 MOA on average with 50g V-Maxs at 3450 fps. Not sure what the upper/lower tolerance is on Preditor but an accurizing wedge (to tighten fit between the upper and lower) helped me in getting to .25. So did great case preparation and custom loading. I seldom see a bolt rifle on the shooting range that can beat it.

The reliability has never been a problem for me. It is always ready to go and it doesn't give coyotes much of a chance once you get accustomed to it. I would never put a muzzle break on it because of noise and weight. I can't quite see my bullet hit in the scope but it doesn't move more than a couple inches off the point of aim. They can keep all the rails as far as I am concerned as I don't need to hang much on it for preditor hunting.

Its not as pretty as a Weatherby but if the coyotes are getting too thick, I have to leave the Weatherby in the safe and use the black gun.

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from deadeyedick wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

I have always shied away from MSR type rifles, lately I've been geeting the itch to go out and buy one so your blog was very timely for me. From your article I have enough info to make a solid choice.
Do you know how many states still ban semi-auto rifles. for hunting purposes? Pennsylvania is one. A person would be well advised to check state laws before purchasing a MSR.

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from dtownley wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

I like Freds enthusiasm, his family, his firearm, and where he chooses to hunt, though I am .223 tight if a chance afforded itself a custom 6.5 TCU bbl. in a simular model would keep me off the street.
Fred whoops & hollars a bit but is a wealth of info to me and helpful to his clients.
I would not scoff at a signature model exactly like this.

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from Chad Beck wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

If you take that forward mounted rail that is sitting at the 3 o'clock position and rotate it up to the 2 o'clock position and mount a small, zero magnification scope. You will have far reaching/close quarters gun. Simply cant the gun inward when things get a little hot and nothing gets away. Got the idea from my military buddy. Has come in quite handy on several occasions.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

My Bushmaster shoots plenty of Minute-of-Wile E. with HSM 55 gr softpoints, and lots purdier.

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from buckhunter wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

Had the pleasure of meeting Fred Eichler and his wife at the SCI convention in Vegas this year. We spoke for a long time about hunting shows, his new bow and varmint hunting. He is a top-notch individual with a real passion for the sport.

I cannot say much about his new gun but if he spent as much time and effort on the gun as he did his new bow, I'm sure it's a fine piece of equipment.

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from Silverback wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

I actually just got a RRA AR15 in .223. Almsot the same except, all black, 18" barrel and all rails instead of paw prints. I put the new Leupold AR 6 x 12 and that this shoots amazing. Look at thier web site and see. I mean awesome.

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from davidpetzal wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

To Douglas: That is one of my much-beat-up Bushnell Elite 4200 2.5X-10X scopes. I have three of them, and they have all been pounded without mercy through the years, but they still work fine.

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from Tim Platt wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

I love the gun, the barrel sounds like it has had every trick anyone has ever imagined already done to it. The over sized trigger guard and superior trigger also are what every rifle needs, and I even love the paw print vents, but I don't understand why all of these "MSR's?" have to have such an unorthodox stock. That turns me off, and I would have to suggest that it is why so many others are calling it ugly.

The bolt action hunter is aging and slowly but surely becoming an endangered species. It is a fact of life, and no matter how much we hate it, it is what the future holds. Much like the gun laws in NYC...

My real question is why MSR's? Weren't these just semi-automatic rifles and then assault rifles and then black rifles and now what? MSR's???

Google says MSR's are magnetic stripe readers, Microsoft Research, molten salt reactors, medical-grade silicon rubber, Michigan Shore Railroad, main supply route.... but not Modular Sniper Rifles. I am personally offended by that name. I own a semi-automatic 5.56. And that's all I have to say about that.

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from focusfront wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Well, Petzal did call the paw prints "unbearably" cute. I'll go with that.

If I was doing a house-to-house sweep in Falujah or the south side of Chicago, I would think a 16" barrel would be about right. But a varmint gun could use a barrel longer than that. With these little mouse guns, all you have is velocity; take that away and you have a noisy .218 Bee. If you are getting .75" accuracy with this little rifle, you can take shots at long enough range to justify the extra distance another 600 fps would deliver.

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from Shuck M. wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

I don't know. I've no doubt the thing can perform as Dave said, but...plastic and paw prints? Bell bottoms and leg warmers were de riguere once too. These things make me want to work up a bpcr round.

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from 99explorer wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

I believe that sleeve at the forend was designed to protect the shooter's hand from being burned by an overheated barrel, an important function in military combat with a fully-automatic weapon.

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from Moose1980 wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

OHH, I may be wrong, but a lot of coyote hunting is done in the dead of winter. So I think the over sized trigger guard allows for a gloved finger to get in their easier. I however will stick to my Ruger M77 for yotes. My Stag AR is just for the range, and they sure are a heck of a lot of fun to shoot.

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from dale freeman wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

To Mark 1#####@#
I REMEMBER, AS A 5TH. GRADER, bEING IN A SCHOOL PLAY AND ALL THE BOYS HAD TO BRING A .bb GUN AND I HAD NONE, SO i BROUGHT MY .410 SHOTGUN AND EVERYTHING WENT JUST FINE.
lOOKED LIKE NO TEACHERS EVEN SAW THE SHOTGUN BUT BOY DID ALL THE BOYS.

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from DakotaMan wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Ripper III,
I would advise using the .223 for varmints. The .308s kick like a young mule, take your scope way off target and the bullets keep bouncing across the prairie until they hit something (possibly a cow).

I have a lot tougher time hitting running coyotes with a .308 because of the much slower speed. I prefer the .223 speed to reduce lead and holdover. The .308 can get velocity over 3200 fps with 110g V-Maxs but it is a better for brush busting deer, elk and monster hogs than for varmint hunting.

I have no qualms about shooting deer with the .223 either as long as the bullet won't hit brush on the way to the deer. The .223 55g Combined Technology bullets seem to penetrate about as well as the .308 150g Sierra on deer out to 250 yards. We've also shot dozens antelope with them at ranges out to 500 yards (although most were within 250 yards) with no issues.

Some say the wind bothers the .223s but I say "You need to learn how to compensate for wind with ALL projectiles". Long range .223 windage isn't much different than .308 windage because of its higher initial velocity. For example, my neighbor at the range was missing 8 inch gongs at 500 meters with his $5,000 .338 Lapua in a 15 mph cross wind, I was able to rain 10 shot magazines into a 2 inch group right in the center of that gong with my .223 varminter with a shot every 2-3 seconds. He seemed shocked... most people do. The point is, if you have an accurate rifle and you know how to shoot, you will hit your target regardless of the caliber.

Regarding pelt preservation, the little 40-50g V-Max varmint bullets usually don't exit, leaving only a tiny entrance wound. They explode everything inside coyotes though and flatten them with shock instantly. The .308 exits with about 8 inches of the coyote and occassionally tears foxes in half. You could use full metal jackets with a .308 but I don't care for the way they ricochet. I enjoy shooting coyotes but I hate shooting cows or cowboys/cowgirls!

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from brktrt-18 wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

It would be much better without the paw prints and the eyes. Oh course my 4 year old would like the paw prints

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from Douglas wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

What are the optics you got mounted there?

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from larson014 wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

thanks for finally coming into the AR game (a little late) but as you can see there are still holdouts...

looks like a nice rifle, except i don't like that stock, it looks a little heavy, and nonadjustable?

paw prints are fine... makes them unique

it does look weird without a flash hider/compensator...

glad i am not in NYS

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from RockySquirrel wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph; Not sure the bolt is dead. I bought a new 22-250 Rem700 and that is the most accurate rifle I have ever shot.

I (currently) see no need for an AR, BLACK RIFLE or MSR myself; But I admit one day on the range positively drooling over the .22 from S&W that someone brought along. If I was to get one, that .22 would be the one,

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from Ontario Honker ... wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Aren't they now saying MSR stands for Modern Sporting Rifle? Or is that somebody's idea of a sarcastic joke? I confess I'm totally out of the loop on this paramilitary stuff.
What the heck is all the fuss about over-size trigger guards? Seems like a waste of metal (or plastic, as the case may be). What purpose do they serve? Like someone is going to be out bucking the brush with that mouse gun!Sounds very much like 007's analogy of designing stuff from the outside in as per the big fifties cars.

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from Ontario Honker ... wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Speaking of those 50s cars being designed from the outside in, just pulling the hood up on any one of them pretty much exemplified 007's point. Even the "big" 327 cubic inch Chev V-8s hardly filled half their compartments. Remove the hood and you could literally crawl in and stand beside most of the six cylinder engines. I know, because I did many times. And all that empty wasted space between the radiators and grillwork! I have to admit the worst offender in that category was the 1960s-1970s Olds Toronado. Cripes, you could stuff a good-sized deer in that hole. Again, great analogy, 007.

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from PbHead wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Dave, I agree with the footprints. Think about the possibilities: scurrying squirrels, leaping deer, Ms. Cuthbert, lots of possibilities here.

Dave did you cut your gun writing teeth covering the great lever vs. bolt debate about a century ago? Maybe it was the Schutzen vs. Military style target shooting. I can't remember.

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from PbHead wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Dave, I agree with the footprints. Think about the possibilities: scurrying squirrels, leaping deer, Ms. Cuthbert, lots of possibilities here.

Dave did you cut your gun writing teeth covering the great lever vs. bolt debate about a century ago? Maybe it was the Schutzen vs. Military style target shooting. I can't remember.

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from Ontario Honker ... wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Thanks for clarifying, Moose. That definitely makes sense. I was envisioning that the trigger guard was more massive rather than the hole being bigger.

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from RipperIII wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

I really, really want a set up like this, but funds are tight right now, so I gnash my teeth and wish.
What caliber would be best? 5.56/.223 or .308?
I'd like to keep the pelts of any critter that I shot.

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from Ontario Honker ... wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Ripper, you can probably build your own varmint gun at a fraction of the price of this thing. And it would be a gun that is a reflection of who you are, not who the marketers succeed in making you think you should be. A good Mauser action can still be had fairly reasonably (or they could a couple of years ago), lots of outfits making barrels, triggers, stocks, etc. You just need a licensed gunsmith/dealer to order the action from the vendor. The rest you can have shipped directly to you. Gunsmith will have to seat the barrel. The rest you can do at home. I have known guys who even taught themselves how to do the checkering and they did fine work too (not like the above beast has any checkering to offer!).

I have the Springfield my dad rebuilt for me, and my younger brother has the one Dad built for himself. They are both beautiful guns. More importantly, those are heirlooms that really mean something. Each has MANY stories from the field to tell, but even if they didn't they'd still have my dad's hands all over them. Make something like that for your kids rather than hand down to them some factory mass-produced "thing" like the above.

For the life of me I cannot understand why everyone thinks they need an automatic of any sort - ugly or not - to hunt coyotes. An auto is the last thing I'd want to be hunting with when it's twenty below. Also, varmint hunting is typically one shot and you're through situations. Using an auto would seem to be overkill. This appears to me to be a blatant case of marketing boys creating demand out of thin air.

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from jr9893 wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

too bad you cant hunt with semi-autos in PA

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from RES1956 wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Whoda thunk an AR platform rifle could/would every shoot that good? Pretty cool.

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from O Garcia wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Nice one, DakotaMan, "accurizing wedge". Some soldiers in Iraq reportedly inserted strips of credit card through the space between upper and lower.

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from small game sportsman wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

thats a pretty sick gun

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from 357 wrote 1 year 45 weeks ago

i think it's a pretty sharp looking gun, an AR platform something is on my life of things to buy/build. my bolt action savage 223 does the yotes in fine for now so i'm thinking that i'll be good for a while.

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from peterh wrote 1 year 30 weeks ago

I read most of the posts here and don't understand, if you don't like AR type rifles to begin with then why bother writing a non-objective totally unhelpful comment!!

I on the other hand will attempt to post an objective opinion on the new RRA Fred Eichler rifle. I say objective because I bought one and have been shooting it for several weeks now. I will start with the functioning, reliability and accuracy first, then I will say something about the aesthetics of the gun. I have now put over thousand rounds down range and the rifle has cycled and chambered every round with out one malfunction, so much for function and reliability, now for accuracy.

Using good quality ammunition the rifle for me has produced 100 yard .5 to 1.0 MOA groups. I have shot several bolt guns that would not do that. Now using several different Match ammo I was able to achieve groups in the 1/4 to .5 MOA. Now that out of a carbine size gun has to be impressive even to the most critical.

As far as weather you think the gun is ugly, because you don't like the paw print cut into the hand guard or you don't like or feel you have no need for a muzzle break, all I can say is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

As for me I like it, it was what some people saw ugly about the gun that I found interesting. It seemed to me there was an attempt by the designers to get away from the totally military look of most AR types and bring out a hunting aspect look that would be different and hopefully appealing to the hunter.

As I said, I like it. I think it's a neat gun and look forward to doing some varmint hunting with it this fall. Congrats to RRA and Fred.....

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from Brandon Collier wrote 1 year 17 weeks ago

Nice post peterh, I have always been old school but I have always been a accuracy nut. Now that the black gun craze has got to the point where you can buy a semi-auto that shoots MOA you have caught my attention. I am a coyote hunter, I have never had bull barrel bolt action weapons because of weight, I put my fox pro, stadium seat, bog pod, and my not as slim as I use to be for a long hike I want light weight. This gun has it, it is light, accurate, fast fallow up shots and lets face we all would pull the trigger 20 times as fast as we can at the range...It is the kid in us!!!

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from Ontario Honker ... wrote 1 year 49 weeks ago

That thing is sure ugly. I don't care how good it shoots, I just couldn't be seen with one of them. I know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I have seen car jacks that looked more attractive than that thing, and anyone who would argue the point ... well, I'd have to wonder about what they go home to every night. Just kidding. It is pretty hard on the eyes though.

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from Ontario Honker ... wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

My sentiments exactly, Chuckles. No red ink from this old boy. However, I'm sure we can expect to be slammed by the paramilitary ugly duckling lovers who are so intolerant of the least little criticism of their current toys-for-a-day.

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from The_UTP wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Folks: When Petzal writes "almost unbearably cute" he means that he almost cannot bear those paw prints. Given that he is a tough old piece of meat who has borne quite a bit of nonsense and abuse in the gun writing business, it's not a trifling thing for him to write that the paw prints are nearly a deal breaker for him on this gun.

Regarding the AR platform, my sense is that they are more profitable for gun makers to produce than traditional arms, and that's why they're being pushed so hard on the gun writers. What boggles my mind is that we're talking so reverently about a $1,300 gun that shoots MOA. Um, you can very easily go to your nearest good gun shop and get a $250 used bolt-action rifle that will do that with a decent hand load. The AR was not designed to deliver heavy payloads with high accuracy at long distances like a bolt-action -- it's an anti-personnel weapon designed for use at close to medium range. Why spend so much hard-earned cash trying to make the platform do something it wasn't designed to do when there are other guns that can do it effortlessly?

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from 99explorer wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

It certainly makes a fashion statement. "Hey, look at me!"
There is nothing novel about a .223 predator rifle with a scope, but with all the gadgets on that thing, we overlook the fact that it is a semi-auto, and prone to stoppages. Apparently not an important consideration with predator hunters.

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from RandyMI wrote 1 year 48 weeks ago

Mr. Petzal asked, "What can you say about that kind of thinking?" Uninformed? Presumptuous?

As for this style rifle, please do not bring one over to my backyard range. Nor my hunting camp. (Not) sorry..... :-]

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