Dear David,

BLASPHEMER! I have spent the last 18 years of married life convincing my spouse that EVERY animal REQUIRES a different, unique firearm that must be acquired prior to my endeavor to harvest said beast. You may have put all my efforts at risk with this one morsel of sage advice.

DP's exchange with the young hunter echoes the conclusions reached by many wise people over the years, from W.D.M Bell, to Jack O'Connor, to Finn Aagaard to Peter Capstick. In Bell's case, he once wrote that the only bullet he ever heard whine away after completely passing through an elephant's brain pan and skull and out the other side was a 173-gr. solid from his 7X57. The elephant was immediately dead -- something that would not have happen had he missed the brain with a .470; much less gut shot it with something more powerful.
What matters most when it comes to killing power is a well-placed bullet that penetrates deep into the vitals. Everything else is illusory and artificial, whether the claims spring from something like Pondoro Taylor's "knockdown" tables or Roy Weatherby's notions about hydrostatic shock. No animal as big as an elk, much less an elephant, is going to die faster because the front area of a chosen bullet in a pet caliber is .054 wider than something else or generates a few dozen more foot pounds of energy. You simply cannot build a big enough, shoulder-fired gun to knock something that big off its feet the way a .22-250 blows up a prairie dog.
Anecdotal evidence means nothing. I've had 250-pound hogs fold up like cardboard after being hit in the chest with a .243 while others of similar size have not even flinched after being hit in the same place with a 180-gr. bullet from a 30-06. Blame it on biology or the phases of the moon; but in each case every animal was quickly collected as long as the shot was well-placed and the bullet performed correctly.
Put a well-constructed bullet of any reasonable caliber into something's boiler room and it won't go far. Shoot it anywhere else with anything else and odds are you are going to be in for a long and likely fruitless chase. The best rifle for anything is, within reason, the one you shoot best, as long as the bullet is built well enough to do its job.

when i first came to colorado i talked with many hunters about their favorite elk caliber. back then most of the guys i talked to used either the .243, 257 bob, 30-30 and of course the always popular .270 or 30-06. finding elk wasn't much of a problem then. it is now. anything as- or more powerful than- a .357 magnum will kill elk. the trick is finding them and getting within the range of your firearm. that's why they call them "hunters" and not "shooters"

Well, yes, I think a .280 will kill that elk as dead as a more powerful cartridge could, but I don't think we should create a mindset that any old cartridge would be good enough to kill an elk. I see this happening in deer hunting these days with the AR craze. Most of the AR's that are sold are in .223 caliber, and NO one will convince me that the .223 is an adequate deer round, yet a good many people who buy them think they have a gun that they could now hunt deer with. Yes, a deer can be killed with a .223, but NO one will convince me that there aren't WAY better cartridges out there for the purpose. And from what I have witnessed from these bullet sprayers with AR's at shooting ranges, I don't know if I would trust their shooting abilities with even a more potent cartridge! Flame away if you wish! LOL

Ultra Light Arms .280 with a Swarovski... pretty much says it all. I hope he has hunting skills equal to his rifle. If so he will not have a problem.

Ya know what, I think it's more about the guy pulling the trigger. My first elk gun was a Winchester 94 .30/30. I was 2 and 0 with that little long gun. I've seen elk killed with .243, .308, .270, and .280. Now a days it's a Springfield action, bored out for .300 Win Mag, and a 3-9 Leupold VX II Scope. So far I'm 22-0 on elk, and 15/0 deer. It ain't the gun. It's about practice, persistence, and patience. Lot's of hard work and a little bit of luck is ok too.

No mentions of the 7mm Rem Mag???

I shot thirteen elk in thirteen years with 30-06 180 gr. One was about 300 yards (dang near a tragic mistake shooting it at that distance) and the rest were less than 100 yards. I am a heavy timber tracker not a mountain top to mountain top elk crippler. A great caliber and load for deer also in the area.

The first time I deer hunted in WY I met the owners of the ranch and they were sisters. They lived west of Kaycee. They shot their elk and deer with a 250 Savage, Model 99. There deceased husbands never hunted but they did every fall. I think the difference was they could pick their shot since they lived there, new the country, and the animals habits year round.

the third most popular moose calibre here in ol norway is the 6,5x55 with 139 grain controlled expansion bullets.. and statistically it kills cleaner by a significant degree than the two more popular moose calibres here, the 3006 and 308, and its basically because the 6,5x55 has lower recoil and the shooters develop less flinch and often train more, so yes anything over 6mm today can surely kill an elk with good bullets and shotplacement. and u cannot make me belive that a 338 winmag today kills better, it just allows more sloppy shots from hunters that trains less cos of the torturous recoil.. get a friend to load yer rifle for u and leave the gun empty bout half the time after a 200 round training session on the range and check and see.. 200 rounds of 338 winmag and u bettya even the best shooters today is gonna have a revealing flinch and a dang sore shoulder! ;)

WAM,
Pleased to order another round. Bee crawl out from under the porch and join us. Remember the Robert Service line, "I'm not as wise as the lawyer guys, but strictly between us two-". Bring a stick to poke at the fire, even if there isn't one.

After reading the title of this blog, I groaned inwardly....and almost didn't read further.

Good to see something different than the typical elk-cartridge pissing contest, which is pretty much a moot point these days.

Back when I was even poorer than I am now, I started with a rem 7400 that had serious issues, jammed and was inherently innacurate. I obviously offloaded that thing (most 7400's are awesome, please dont bash me for having the rare rem lemon)for a rem 700 in 30-06 telling my wife that the old 06 can do anything and probably wouldnt need other rifles. To all new hunter I have some advice :DONT SAY THAT! and start out with something wierd and rare, dont start with a caliber that is truly universal in a rifle package that is as noteworthy. I reccomend something like a 6mm remington, a great cartrige but harder to find ammo and may not be the best chouce for elk and moose. This will allow you two things, 1 to get some reloading equipment to alleviate the cost of expensive 6mm ammo and secondly it leaves the door open for purchase of other game dedicated rounds. Since then I have gotten a few other calibers such as 45-70, 243, 270 win, 7mm WSM and a few others, I have never rid myself of them thankfully.
You'll thank me in 20 years

No double most "Deer Guns" a hunter is familiar with can take an Elk( or Moose or Caribou for that matter)! Having said this, remember that Elk habitat is Bear habitat as well. While in bear country carry a bear gun!
No harm in having a little extra Boom in the Bang!

MReeder:

I agree with most of what you say. Getting to the vitals is the primary consideration. Once you're there, heck, even a broadhead will kill game!

The problem is getting there. Big bones, heavy muscle, and less than perfect angles make me like a big, moderate velocity 225 grain bullet. I'm not looking for more shock, or foot-pounds, or whatever. I'm looking for a through-and-through as often as possible.

As far as I'm concerned, the difference between a 300 Savage, 30-06, and 300 Weatherby is amount of holdover. I don't want more fps, I want more penetration! (Insert your own joke here)

Amflyer,
I think we're mostly on the same page, give or take a paragraph or two. My only possible quibble would be that I don't think (as long as the comparison is reasonable)that caliber is as important to smashing through bones, muscles, etc, as bullet construction and possibly a few other lesser factors like sectional density. Again, I'm talking reasonable comparison -- 7X57 -- even 6.5X55 -- on the bottom end up to say .338 or even .375. Shot distance also plays a role of course, due to momentum, so I'd limit the comparison to 300 yards or closer, which is probably about 100 yards farther than most people should shoot at something with a pulse.
Otherwise, about the only advantage I can see to using the larger end of the scale vs. the smaller end has more to do with the psychology of the hunter than the physiology of the hunted. If a bigger gun makes you feel more confident and you can shoot it, have at it. Just don't think that an extra.05 frontal diameter or extra 50 grains of bullet is going to make much real difference to something that weighs more than 500 pounds on the hoof.
If Bell's 173 gr. 7X57 solid was capable of transversing an elephant's skull then a good, controlled expansion 140-175 gr. 7mm bullet should be able to smash a leg bone on an elk and still get inside the chest. It's sure not going to bounce off the hide. You're exactly right about a broadhead, too. It packs at most about 100 foot pounds of energy, but if it slices through the lungs it kills the same way any bullet does -- by cutting off oxygen to the brain.

1958 remington model 740 with swift 6x fixed power scope. and rem 140 gr coreloks shoots sub 1" contrary to popular opp. light to carry always shoots. who says old semi auto's cant group. 1 muley doe at 575 yds one shot. 1 old 6x3 muley buck at 370 one shot. 1 doe antelope at 80 yds. down and in the back of the truck gutted and all in under 5 min. one very unlucky musk rat 280 yds blown out of the water and onto the bank with a third eye in the back of his head. ya i have lots of other firearms but i like my 280 best. it's light and comfortable to shoot and will take down mice to moose. oh by the way ive taken two elk with a rem 700 in .243 one shot kill. shot placement is the key and you won't hit if you don't shoot a lot. get comfortable with your firearm. spend some money and practice practice practice. gophers and prairie dogs are good practice.

OHH,

A good man has got to know his limitations and those of his equipment.

I've been shooting and dropping elk and deer with my Remington Model 700 ADL in 7 mm Magnum for thirty years. Bought the rifle used from my buddy who kept the scope. He got the rifle and cash in trade for a flat bed trailer. I replaced the wood stock with a Remington composite stock. Sent the rifle back to the factory for the updated safety. The rifle is topped with a Leupold 3.5 x 10 scope. I started shooting Remington 150 gr. Core-Lokts. Tried 175 gr. Core-Loks for elk and my target groups went to hell. Been using Remington factory loaded 150 gr. Swift Scirroco bullets since they came out with them. Pricey, but they shoot flat and are extremely accurate. Excepting the newer Leupold scope, that rifle is dinged-up, scratched, and ugly as a mud fence. I'll be carrying it again this fall in Nevada and Colorado, and hopefully for many more years to come.

On the subject of camp fire smoke in your eyes, an old coot in West(by God)Virginia told me once "Smoke follows the ugly".

Speaking of bullets, what do you think of a 140 grain Sierra Pro Hunter out of a 7X57 for elk?

MReeder,

I do believe you are right as well. Frontal area doesn't mean much to me in a rifle. Pistol maybe, but not rifle. Weight of the bullet, and the increase of momentum, is what I am after.

My rule of thumb...heavy bullets at a moderate (2700-2900 fps) velocity for big game.

Ballistics and end performance will never be totally separate entities, but they don't follow the "more is better" phrase very closely. I could hunt the rest of my days a happy man if I could have 2700-2800 fps out of every rifle I owned with a good, medium to heavy-for-caliber bullet.

My rationale in bullet choice:

30-06, 180 grains, 2700 fps. perfect for the big heavy Whitetails here in the corn-belt.

.338 Win Mag, 225 grains, 2750fps; perfect for the big Wapiti I only get to hunt every 3 or 4 years.

When I head to the former South West Africa next June, I'll take along a 375 Holland and Holland, and be overgunned for 95% of what I'll (probably) encounter. (But it's Africa, dammit, and that's what you take to Africa!) 275 Grains, 2700 fps

SO, do most of you agree with DP's advise to the young hunter, or NOT?

Never been west of the Mississippi with gun in hand so I have no first hand knowledge of elk rounds but this does remind me of my question regarding my neighbor who thought his 7mm Remington magnum wasn't up to par for whitetails. Meantime, Wam, Happy, Bee, please order me a Lynchburg lemonade.

Ya got no future in retail,Mr.Petzal.

Happy, one measure Triple Sec, one measure sweet/sour mix, one measure Jack Daniels per the recipe (I sub Jim Beam), four measures Sprite. Shake everything but the Sprite together with ice, add Sprite, pour into a tall glass, garnish with a large lemon slice, and enjoy!

Happy, Pearl has been doing great although she has developed an eye infection over the weekend that concerns me a bit. Her white blood count was low from the chemo. She is due for another dose till next week. I'll get her in for some early blood work and see what that shows. The dogs have been swimming in the lake every day the past week due to the heat and Pearl is strong as a pup. She just turned eight.

Back in the Stone Age when I killed all those elk (including two in one shot) there wasn't a lot of selection to choose from either on the shelf or for loading. For my 30-06 it was pretty much 165, 180, or 220 grains. The 165 grains did a very poor job killing even a deer. A lot of damage (excessive I'd say) but poor on knock down. 220s would put away a grizzly (and I usually had one or two Silvertips in the daypack just for that purpose - I used that brand because visually they were easily distinguished from the other lighter spitzers). However, they were a poor longer range load should the need arise (and it almost never did in the mountains). The 180 grain loads did okay. These days for moose (when I hunt them) I have bumped up to 190 or 200 grain boat tails, whichever I can find available. I think I'd prefer the 190 grain for moose and elk but admit I haven't shot enough animals yet to make a qualified judgment as to effectiveness.

As to the right drink to mix for this sideshow, make mine a Coors Light. I hate the stuff. So I drink it. Otherwise I'd drink too much. Trying hard to preserve my girlish figure but it's almost a losing battle at my age.

The 7mm RSAUM is certainly an adequate elk rifle. Just don't run out of ammo or forget it at home and try to buy some cartridges in Kremmling, CO or Big Fork, MT!

I think the best elk cartridge is the one you can shoot well without flinching. That could be anything from a .257 Roberts to a .378 Weatherby.

kaanimal,

John Wooters doesn't write for F&S.

Also the 7mm Rem. Mag. suffers from having to follow the footsteps of the legendary Warren Page's favorite round, the 7mm Mashburn Mashburn, which reportedly met the "golden standard" for fast 7mm's of 175 grain bullet @ 3,000fps, and from having to compete with the even more legendary Jack O'Connor's favorite round, the .270 Winchester.

I've mentioned it in the "culling the herd" blog, some Remington rounds suffer from anemia. The 7mm Mag. as loaded to Remington's SAAMI spec barely beats the .270/.280 class. Some handload recipes (Hodgdon, Accurate) don't even reach the 60,000PSI mark.

Not just the 7mm. The big 8mm basically died at birth (it could have been the poor man's .340 Wby), its only purpose today being the basis of the .416 Rem. and Jon R. Sundra's(.375JRS) and Layne Simpson's "Shooting Times" wildcats. Too bad, because Bob Milek's favorite elk caliber was the 8mm Rem. Mag.

SL has a point. I agree these AR and MSR shooters will transfer all their efforts to the old style bolt actions and other *proven* hunting rifle type actions and cartridges for big game.

e.g. 308 and the M14 have been around for decades and the combination still hasn't caught on for big game hunting...unless you happen to be an African paramilitary.

typo ment dpms

I've recently acquired a 7x57 (no range time yet, brass and bullets just arrived). I've done some extensive reading on this caliber since a hunt in 2008 when I had an oppurtunity to borrow a buddy's rifle chambered in this caliber.

While a 7x57 in a modern action can hold its own with a 7-08 velocity wise, its also import for speed freaks to understand momentum a bit. The 7x57 really shines with the heavier 160+ grain bullets. Even at a lower velocity it can hit with crushing force. A 140grn bullet going a heck of a lot faster doesnt' hit any harder and really, unless you step up to the 7mm Rem Mag doesn't fly much flatter.

In any instance, I have no itentions of trying to repeat Mr. Bell's exploits when it comes to elephant hunting. Shot placement may be 95% of it, but if I'm going to spend the type of money to get back to Africa to hunt an elephant, I'll spend the money necessary to buy a rifle which can throw 300grn or heavier bullets.

Bonedoc33--the 140gn Sierra Pro Hunter is a deep penetrator on white tail, so putting it in the right place is going to cause the internal damage needed.

Ralph,

In a word, Yes.

I stopped at a country store in the mountains of northern Wyoming a couple weeks ago to buy a Diet Pepsi. I glanced behind the counter looking for the cartridges for sale to the locals who don't reload. Surprisingly I only saw .243 Win, .270 Win, 7 mm RM, 7 mm WSM (only 2 boxes), and .300 WM. No .30-30, no 7-08, no .308, and no .30-'06. This strikes me as being a bit odd with the common .30's missing plus the fact that the boxes on the shelf appeared to be very new indicating routine sales of such. There was no other store for miles and the young lady with the register did not know one cartridge from another. She was however a very cute cowgirl.

Ishawooa,

The 7mm WSM must have been "old stock" LOL!

Does anyone even use that dying cartridge? They must have sold out of the good cartridges... just sayin'

Mr. Muindawg;
Currently, I have a rem7400 that will shoot three touching.
Don't care who believes it or not.
I know it.

P.S.
What is a muindawg and where does be.

Ontario,
I have been listening to your teeth grinding for a couple of days from 3000 miles away. Surprised we have not head from you sooner. How is Pearl? Hope she is fine and you two are taking care of each other. The Very Kindest Regards

well it's the Gun Nuts blog, people will have opinions about guns, will find excuse to buy new guns, etc.
if not for gun nuts, we'd still be shooting .30-03's.

Minimun caliber in Montana is any .22 centerfire. The Inuits shoot polar bears with .223s