Hunting with an E R doc is highly recommended and my friend "Dr.Bullet"has been a hunting partner for years.I've been trying to interest my Cardiologist in joining us but he's a biker and doesn't enjoy recoil.

It IS NOT a tough call! I have known countless hunting/shooting nuts in my life but have yet to know one who wound up with a rotor cuff repair because of recoil. Maybe you do, but I don't. I damaged mine in practice with the high school wrestlers I coached and then again after a serious horse wreck. But I escaped with only extensive physiotherapy. Now, even IF (and that is a very big IF) extensive recoil cold lead to significant injury, say rotor cuff, those injuries are generally repairable through physio or surgery.

HEARING LOSS is not repairable! When it's gone, it's gone. Hearing aids are getting a bit better but as everyone who has them knows, even the best are a terrible nuisance almost all the time. Very frustrating.

I think a gun owner, especially a hunting gun owner, is an absolute idiot to trade his hearing for a bit less shoulder discomfort. I think I can say with some authority that no one can hunt effectively or SAFELY while wearing hearing protection.

C'mon! We all know what this muzzle brake stuff is all about. IT'S ANOTHER TECHNOCRAP FAD. I mean, putting a muzzle brake on a .240 Gibbs or .220 Swift? Why? Silly stylishness. Has nothing to do with gun weights, or recoil, or noise factor. Marketers have somehow convinced us that gun barrels with holes in them look cool. Anybody who falls for their line of crap deserves to get their ears blown out!

i like brakes (not breaks, please! i don't want to break anything with the muzzle of my rifle. that could damage the crown.) because they help get back on target quicker. i also like limbsaver because long sessions of shooting can get painful. best of all is a sound moderator which can increase accuracy (they are practically a must to be competitive at tactical matches.) and help flinching. they help reduce recoil too. shooting a box of ammo prior to hunting season then putting the gun away 'till next year won't hurt anyone, even with heavy calibers. if you shoot enough to become familiar with your rifle, a little help is welcome.

Muzzle brakes are great at doing what they are meant to do reducing recoil and bursting your ear drums. I learned the hard way trying to absorb recoil using my nose the first time I shot my 7mm. I learned my lesson and I learned the right way to shoot heavy calibers in light guns. It actually helped me correct a bad shooting form I had. I see the value of muzzle breaks, however if I want to shoot a gun that feels like a .22, I’ll just shoot a .22.

Whack-a-mole! What trade-off demon do ya care to deal with?

Light-rifle=recoil. Heavy-rifle=Herculean chore at 4k ft moving to 6k ft, especially a hunter’s 10-lbs+ over-weight. Going with uber-light rifles in 6mm and .25-cal=more recoil. A 7mm mag or 30-06 in a Model 70 featherweight=a beautiful hunting rifle with a heavy counter-punch.

…And they wonder why DP is the way DP is. Gotta love it!

I believe you hit the nail on the head Mr. Petzal. Guns are lighter than ever because people complained that they were too heavy to carry and now we have people complaining that their light gun kicks too much....

Duh....what did they expect would happen?

My second point (and one made previously by other posters) is that many people think they have to have a bazooka to kill a deer today.

And finally...I don't think we are a nation of "girly men" as much as we are a nation easily manipulated by marketing....Which is just as bad....

I have a muzzle brake on a very accurate .308 I guess that makes me real girly. I actually feel bad at the range for those around me but it is a target rifle not really for hunting. It does allow me to see my hits through the scope though. Knowing what I know now I probably would not go with the muzzle brake but it came that way. The rifle is about 12 pounds with scope so recoil is negligible with the brake.

First off, I hate being on the range in proximity to someone shooting a muzzle-braked rifle regardless of caliber. That makes me a selfish old fart I suppose. Secondly, as I wrote in Answers, I'm trying to lose 10+ pounds before hunting season to help my knees and offset the heavy Mark V Roy that I will be wheezing up the mountain with. I've killed more deer and elk with lesser standard caliber rifles, so the magnums are not really necessary for the hunter. Personally, I find the biggest powder hog that I own not to be unmanageable after shooting a .300 RUM at the range last year. So, I say to each his/her own. Just warn me before you touch off a round with that .338 Thunderf*&$er and it will all be good. I wear double hearing protection at the range so it is mind over matter there, but still an irritant.

Best regards

WAM
On a personal note!
Lose too much weight and you'll be pouring lead shot in holes in one of Roy's stocks! LOL!!!
Want a simple, but effective diet!
DO NOT eat until you're hungry! That means don't eat until you can hear your belly growl!
That belly growl equates to the "E" on your body's fuel gauge!
Eat what ever you want, but stop when you get full! Big key!
I no longer eat at 6am 12pm and 6pm! I no longer eat 3 "squares" a day! I may eat 3 or 4 meals one day and only 1 the next.
I dropped 50 lbs in about 6 months!
According to my "dietician", there are NO bad foods, only bad eating habits! LOL!!

That said, as I get older, I notice my old PH .270 gets a little heavier and has a tendency to recoil a bit more each year!
A muzzle brake!? Not on one of my guns!
I gave up on big bore mags long ago. Just not my cup of tea! I kill all I need with a plain ol Cactus Jack with moderate hand loads! Should I need more, I'll either get something bigger or stay at home. At my age, it's my right and MY option!
BTW, I really don't give a red rat's rear what you think of my recoil tolerance! It's mine! I'll deal with it! It's nunya! (None ya bidness!)

Dave:

When you say 'biker' do you mean motorcyclist or bicyclist? "Biker" is the correct term for a motorcyclist. I'd hesitate to say that bikers are girly men. I worked one who had a compound fractured leg; he'd come out second in a collision with an unobservant motorist, and still managed to crawl out from under his smashed Harley and into a strip joint near the accident site, where he was drinking and enjoying the show before his copious visible blood loss prompted his buddies to call 911. That's one story, I have others. Those spandex clad, leg-shaved guys you see pedaling fifteen pound Treks are properly referred to as "cyclists," and yes, they tend to be a little more in touch with their feelings than many of the rest of us.

I think a lot of this magnumania boils down to scopes. A .30-06 is a laser beam at factory open sight ranges but isn't too flat at today's Zeiss ranges. Hence the magnums.

I think today's hunter has different motivations than yesterday's. It wouldn't have occurred to me to ask my grandpa or my dad if they 'liked' hunting. It was something they did. Now, it's a sport, something that's supposed to be fun, and neither carrying heavy rifles nor getting kicked hard is fun. So we choose deafness instead.

To All: Apropos of absolutely nothing, I was listening to a career soldier being interviewed some weeks ago about what young soldiers and Marines are like and said that privates are spending up to $1,000 of their own money to buy gear before they're deployed to Afghanistan. The halfwit interviewer never asked him what gear, specifically. Anyone got any input?

Ditto to Moose180. I found myself at the range sitting next to a guy with a muzzle-braked 300 Win. Mag last fall and it still makes me flinch thinking about it. I had in ear plugs and was wearing decent hearing protectors, too, and it didn't do a bit of good. I finally had to get up and move back until he finished up. I can't think of one thing he was going to kill any deader with that ear-drum shattering rig than he could have killed with the 30-06 I was shooting, other than the hearing of every poor SOB standing off to his side.

Anyone who is near-sighted or has diabetes would certainly be at risk for detached retinas and they MIGHT want to do what they could to reduce the recoil of an elephant gun or some similar oversized bazooka hunting rifle. Or, if they were aware that they are at risk, I would think they'd just swear off big guns altogether. This from a guy who has already had five detachments. Guess you now know why I don't spend much time on the range. It's not worth the risk. Also gave up all sports including basketball and softball. Can't risk getting beaned. I still shoot 3" mags from my 870 at geese and though I get quite a few of them I don't shoot an awful lot of ammo. Probably should change to something that shoots softer. The Browning auto is now my shotgun for pheasants to mitigate recoil. I have pretty much dropped big game hunting (for other reasons) but never fired more than a half dozen rounds a year through my 30-06 so it doesn't get the blame for my eye problems. I have thin retinas. Genetics I guess.

Tmullen, you are the exception. However, I would think you'd want to move down to a more comfortable shooting gun, say a .243 or 25-06 and be careful about shot placement. If you're hunting from a blind or treestand that would be seem do-able. I think you'd find that choice much more enjoyable than a muzzle brake.

Big bullet + 3000 fps = Elmer Keith

I wish the muzzlebrake had never been invented. I would no sooner own one than a pink rifle. In fact I would take the pink rifle first and spray paint the sumbich...

Even if you are hunting dangerous African game with a thunderf***er, after you touch off that first round your ears will be ringing and you will have lost one of your senses. Everyone near you will also be momentarily deaf. That is not a good trade off for a little pain if you ask me. I just don't see it.

I won't even sit at a bench next to someone with a muzzlebrake at the range. The blast alone burns your face and throws crap at you.

Guns weigh less, but people are bigger and stronger than they have ever been. Personally I still think a 30-06 is gun enough for anything on this continent, but if I lived in Alaska I would probably own a .375 H&H. To be perfectly honest they do not seem to kick as much as your standard .30 caliber super magnums...

Honker I believe one of the main downsides of shooting trap for decades can be detached retinas. The old trap shooters can't see or hear.
Recently I watched some young experts on TV examine a Garand. They loved the rifle but dispised the excessive 9.5 pound weight saying that it was too heavy to carry all day. I don't remember my dad having that opinion after having used one all over the South Pacific in '43, '44, and '45 with the 37th division. RIP

I had a muzzle brake on my 7mm Weatherby for several years. Got the rifle rebarreled with a Douglas 26" with NO brake and never have missed it. I inherited my father's .300 Weatherby Mark V with a brake, got it removed and the barrel recrowned. I hate the damned things!

Stop; Think;
We all know that recoil is less noticeable with. hearing protection.
We all know that when we shoot our prey of choice, there was no recoil at all, was there.
I have a constant ringing in my ears(hunting since 10, military and 37 law enforcement) and no one ever asked if I'd like some hearing protection.
Please wear hearing protection even if you shoot "cap pistols".

No muzzle brakes for me. I don't shoot any of the Thunder&#*@!$. Too much noise with the brakes. I use hearing protection on everything but .22 rifles. I have just been wondering when somebody is going to put a dang brake on a .357.

only having 60% of my hearing left from shooting close to 20k 2lr rounds mostly (although the number of 12 ga. and 308 rounds WITHOUTH hearing protection cant be measured fully)((and although i still hear 96% of the full hearing spectrum according to the test i took in the military) sticking something on ma gun that increases the sound of the blast and "air-shockwave" dont seem natural to me. shooters today wanna have it all in one handy package it seems. at 15 i learned how to shoot a milspec m98 in 3006 with open sights so well i know its my limit for natural shooting, but thats cos i trained for it extensively. so no recoil device for me unless i go over 3006 in recoil power unless its a BOSS system and i wanna improove the accurazy that way. but ive used silencers for more than 20 years too so i know it would be a much better choice for most since it aliveates muzzleblast, dont detract from the speed of the bullets, works as a barrelweight for precision, and might save u just enough hearing to get by even if it only works as a supressor in yer calibre. but for true precision u gotta keep that rig stable and if u shoot the gun in with a supressor/silencer, u gotta keep it on to hit the same POI all the time.. just my 5 cents!

edit to above post,...that is supposed to read, a Ranger, a marine and a contractor...sorry for the confusion.

Years ago, back when hardly anybody wore hearing protection, I was sighting my shotgun in before deer season at a public range. The fellow next to me was shooting a .308 with a short barrel(18 in. or shorter would be my guess). Everyone was shooting prone and were fairly close to each other. Every time he fired there was a 3 to 4 ft. fireball coming out the end of the barrel and the blast was incredible. My ears were numb and ringing for days afterwords. I think that was the loudest firearm I ever heard. My head was less than 3 ft. from the muzzle. I don't shoot much anymore do to health reasons and have never been near a rifle with a brake on it. Maybe someone with more experience than me can answer a question? Is a short barreled rifle as loud as a longer one with a muzzle brake on it? Those scout rifles with the short barrels must also be hard on the ears.

Maybe it is just a black rifle thing. All those AR fans just don't think a rifle looks right without one!

Take it from me, a man who has lost a good bit of his hearing and now I wear hearing aids in both ears WEAR HEARING PROTECTION ANYWHERE THERE IS LOUD OR CONTINUOUS NOISE!!!!!!! The reasons for my hearing loss are many and gunfire was one of the. If your gun kicks to much buy a smaller caliber, but if you really have to shoot that thunder#$&^@ put a quality recoil pad or have a gunsmith install a recoil reducer

I don't have a muzzle brake and never will. My gunsmith puts Simms Limb Saver recoil pads on my rifles and he swears that the Simms Limb Saver recoil pad removes as much recoil as a muzzle brake and I believe him. I had a Browning once with a muzzle brake but it untied my shoes every time I sat down and shot it. I only owned it a month or two before it became the property of someone else.

Mike55,
There are too many variables to say that a short barrel rifle (let's say less than 20-inches) is going to be louder than a rifle with a muzzle brake, but any centerfire rifle above .22 caliber with a stubby barrel is going to get your attention.
I've got a little Ruger 77 International in .243 with an 18.5 inch barrel and it is the loudest thing I've ever shot. You touch it off inside an enclosed blind and for the next 15 minutes you think someone is ringing the Liberty Bell. If it's near dusk or before sunrise it also throws a ball of flame that lays the daisies low. My son has actually been using it the last couple of years and while it's a pretty little thing I really can't say I've missed shooting it.

@ Lost Lure,

"I am now seriously debating about putting one on. Does that make me a woman?"

Maybe so. In this day and age one can never tell....

I have a friend who has a short barreled .350 Remington Magnum. He can sure fill you in on muzzle blast and recoil from a short tube.

A good friend has a muzzle brake on his 300 Wby Mag due to a bad shoulder and neck he earned from 20+ years of military service. I am not in the same situation and do not have a brake on any of my rifles. It is a choice. I admit the brake on his rifle makes its recoil feel much like a 270 Win. Almost 30 years of military service has got me a hearing loss in my left ear. I always use plugs or headphones at the range and I hunt with plugs ready to go in (if there is time).
I have a very hard time understanding the big deal made of light rifles. Two times into Afghanistan with 50-70lbs that I HAVE to have--body armor, helmet, water, a radio, and two weapons, has left me with no tollerance for a recreational hunter gripping about how much weight he has to shave off his 8lb rifle so it is better. I throw the whimp flag on that. My 10lb .257 Wby Mag is a fine rifle and I would not consider spending a lot more money for one that is the same chambering with less weight being the only difference in the two rifles. If a hunter is looking to make things lighter, try shaving some weight off your fat butt or gut and then you'll be able to go farther with less effort.

if we didn't want anything more than the 7x57, the round that inspired our military to ditch the .30 Krag and invent the .30-06, we wouldn't be having recoil problems. of course, recoil is purely subjective, and even some NFL body types cannot tolerate it, but for most people, the recoil level of the 7x57 is tolerable.

RipperIII,
there's another reason why some "warfighters" buy some of their own gear, even though they're issued gear by the military. it's because the issue gear just won't do, even when you're in the greatest military force on earth.

For example, the Beretta M9 came with magazines that were not made by Beretta, which had reliability issues, and some Iraq veterans who became gunwriters (Robert Kolesar, for example) recommended to future soldiers that they bring their own, commercial Beretta magazines when they get deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan. Those who wanted to increase their chances of survival heeded the advice. Servicemen also brought their own flashlights, folding knives, multi-tools, gloves, binocs, etc. to supplement the issue gear.

why if you put a muzzle brake on a sks is it also considered a flash suppressor which now makes it illegal to own? not really sure on that one.

I can vouch for the Wyoming ranchers...several years ago a bunch of us were driving around north of Lusk looking for a place to shoot prairie dogs. Some folks in town gave us the name of a fellow to call and he told us to come on out. When we got there, we could tell right away he was beaten all to he**. I don't remember having to ask...he informed us that he had been thrown off a horse a few days prior. I think he must have left out the details on how the horse threw him into a fence and stomped him a few times for good measure--he was black and blue everywhere and his arm was in a sling if memory serves. Maybe the sun had aged him prematurely but you could have never convinced me he was anything less than 75. Despite his apparent age and injuries that would have been rough on a 30-year-old, he was still taking care of his 17,000 acres like nothing had happened.

Dave I can give you two bits of gear, both for Army types. Daughter's a medic will be getting a REALLY good knife for cutting off gear etc... based on many many recommendations from other more experienced medics. Nephew's a CW 3 chopper pilot. He and most of his buddies have invested in a reliable updated .45 since they REALLY don't trust the issue m-9s to function, or be useful if needed.

Herr Petzal quoted from November 12, 2008

"Fourth, muzzle brakes break scopes. This is a fact. A riflescope is built to withstand violent rearward acceleration and gradual deceleration. But when gas hits a muzzle brake, the deceleration is violent; it's like slamming the scope into a wall. Some scopes can't hack it.

And finally there is this consideration: Of all the muzzle-braked rifles I've fired, none shot to the same point of impact with the brake on as they did with the brake off.

But as we get wimpier and wussier, we are going to see more rifles—including factory guns—with brakes. Sensitive New Age guys will no longer feel compelled to demonstrate their manhood by acquiring concussions, bulged spinal discs, and scope cuts."

Amen

Triton, the M9's may be lacking in a lot of ways, but the damn things go bang about as often as any other pistol, if not more so.

Flyer notice I said as issued. The magazine problems were already mentioned, but many of them have been beaten, abused, poorly maintained and then re-issued. Nice new ones work well, lots of issue ones don't.

WAM, I bought a Hi-Power new at the PX in Korea. In those days, before I went through a patrol car windshield, I thought I might continue with police work. Not with one of those things! Shooting those two-handed will send you to the ER for stitches. I still carry the scars on my thumb. So dang light I couldn't hit crap with it either. And, sorry, but I don't put much faith in that round as a man-stopper. Had TOTAL faith in the .45 ACP. Hit a perp in the arm with that round and he'll need binocs and an ice chest. The binocs to find the missing limb and the cooler to keep it till he gets to surgery ... or undertaker.

OHH, I beg to differ with you. Yes, the Hi-Power hammer will bite you if you are not experienced with it. From your comment, you have not likely been taught the proper two handed hold for pistolero's. The H-P was Browning's finest gun design although he did not finish it per se before his death. Must not be too much of a POS since it is the most widely distributed police and military sidearm world-wide. Your 1911 makes a fair club for zip number 8 and number 9 will shoot you or skewer you with a spike bayonet. I'll take a H-P and 13 rounds over the 7 shot wonder any day.

9mm military wall is pretty frucking worthless as a killer. It does so slowly if at all. Pistol in general, are poor killers, and are a poor substitute for your carbine (or preferably, a rifle).

I had one on my Remington 30-06 not because of recoil I just wanted to watch the prariedogs blow up when the 22-250 barrel got to hot, but my Ruger M77 wont be getting one.

@Oryx

Apparently you have not been shot by one, shot a human being with one, nor seen one shot by said round.

The US Army came to the conclusion that .45 was the smallest caliber that would be effective during Thompson-LaGarde Tests of 1904. These were the most extensive tests done up to that time. These happened because of the major issues during the campaigns in the Philippines with the .38s.
Granted the powders have gotten better but the military is still using the same style bullets pretty much.
Current testing with 9mm shows it's fine with current modern ammo for self defense but when limited to ball I think you still have a lot of the same problems that were evident in 1904.

@WA Mtnhunter

Nope, no, and no, in answer to your questions.

Congratulations if you have. That's what you were paid to do, and it was your duty as an able-bodied American male. I would hope that my children would do the same if needs arise.

However, the facts remain pistols are a defensive weapon, and carried because of their portability. Smaller calibers like the 9mm and .380 are made better by their modern bullet construction, and are relatively ineffectual fight stoppers in FMJ configuration...as are most self-defense pistols calibers. I believe Ayoob in this case as he seems to have the best information, both in numbers and circumstance.

What bullets do you carry in your sidearm?

I have read that permanent hearing damage occurs when noise levels exceed 120 decibels. Rifles with muzzle brakes generate 160 decibels of noise. Hearing protection, plugs or muffs, may create protection of 22 - 23 decibels, my feeble math indicates your are still in trouble using ear protection when shooting high power rifles with muzzle brakes. This does not even consider noise damage to those standing close to the shooter. Currently, many hunters considering a rifle brake are planning an adventure to the Rockies, the deserts or the African veldts where guides and trackers may be at your shoulder. Most Eastern tree blind deer hunters do not need these devices.

Might add, the fine gunsmith Mark Bansner provides threads on the outside end of his barrels with a "tap" that screws on after the brake is removed, and is so finely machined you cannot see the seam where the thread ends, beautiful work. Bare in mind, the same rifle soots to different point of aim depending whether brake on or off.

Lastly, I practice at a crowded range, invariably after I set up my chronograph someone sets up next to me using a muzzle brake which sets off my chrony with each shot he fires, and I have to pick up and move, a real pain.

Have some other muzzle brake thoughts, but guess you get the picture.

Tutaonana

Happy Myles,

Precisely the reason that I wear good foam earplugs under my ear muffs at the range. You never know what will be fired next to you down the line. If some jackwagon sets up a braked rifle next to me, I generally pack up or take a break in the range house.

I use the brakes on the larger calibers, and since I haven't shot around anyone in 10 years I guess it really doesn't matter. Noise???? They make this thing called "hearing protection". Never have had any problem with it. Blowing someone off a cliff? Well I rarely hunt with anyone other than my kid and so far he hasn't fussed. Of course he was a tank commander in Iraq.