Please Sign In

Please enter a valid username and password
  • Log in with Facebook
» Not a member? Take a moment to register
» Forgot Username or Password

Why Register?
Signing up could earn you gear (click here to learn how)! It also keeps offensive content off our site.

How Rifle Barrels Die

Recent Comments

Categories

Recent Posts

Archives

Syndicate

Google Reader or Homepage
Add to My Yahoo!
Add to My AOL

The Gun Nuts
in your Inbox

Enter your email address to get our new post everyday.

August 20, 2012

How Rifle Barrels Die

By David E. Petzal

Every time you pull the trigger, you squirt a flame of 3,000 to 5,000 degrees (Estimates vary wildly, but it’s pretty damned hot.) up your rifle’s barrel. And every time this happens, the barrel melts a little. It’s charred an unattractive black, and cracks and fissures develop at the rear end of the rifling where the flame is most intense. Eventually, the rifling is literally melted away and your rifle no longer shoots the way it once did.

This seems to happen in two stages. The first thing you’ll notice, assuming you’ve kept decent records, that that your groups get bigger. Your minute-of-angle rifle will no longer put three shots into 1.000; it will do 1.200, or 1.250, or something on that order, no matter how carefully you hold.

It’s at this point that competitive shooters of all breeds get new barrels because they need that last little bit of accuracy. Hunters, however, can go on for a long time with a barrel that is no longer a tack driver, but is still accurate enough. If your former minute of angle rifle now shoots an inch and a half, so what, unless you want to shoot animals at 500 yards where that sort of accuracy loss could make a difference.

The exception to this is cartridges that burn huge powder charges in relation to their bore size. A .30-caliber magnum that consumes 75 grains of powder every time you pull the trigger is not going to last nearly as long as a .30/06 which burns 55 grains. It will go quickly. Same with prairie dog guns. One of those can die over a single hunt. When you shoot a barrel hot enough to brand cattle (to steal gun builder John Noveske’s wonderful image) it’s not going to last long.

But why worry? That’s what barrels are for.

Comments (56)

Top Rated
All Comments
from PbHead wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Dave, some manufacturers claim that their powder burns cooler, not as hot, or whatever. If this is correct, is it enough to make a difference in barrel life?

Thanks for the interesting opinions and information.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Beekeeper wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Dave, does fouling buildup speed up this process. Would there be a differencve in fouling from guilding metal and soild copper slugs?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

I wish I had time to wear out some barrels!

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

In 40-years I've only seen one rifle barrel shot-out. It was a 264 Mag custom woodchuck rifle with somewhere's 1k shots through it.

I've had a couple of 220 Swifts showing wear near the chamber after 800-900 rounds, but lapping revived the rifle for another couple of seasons...at least.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Steve in Virginia wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

This topic comes up from time to time. Dave -- order to spare me and countless others sleepless nights, can you give us a general sense of how many rounds of say, .270 Winchester, a rifle can handle before you begin to notice changes in accuracy (assuming a factor barrel and a regular cleaning schedule)? I seem to recall in previous articles that barrels are usually good for lots of shots (in the thousands) before one achieving the kind of wear that leads one to consider re-barreling. What say you?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Harold wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Dave,

Many years ago, I once had a Remington 722 (or 721, whichever is the short action) in 257 Roberts. It did just as you described: It started out shooting right at 1" at 100yds with my favorite load. For many years it did this and it gave one-shot kills. Then the accuracy started to deteriorate to about 1.25". However something else started to happen at that time that had me mystified. Animals started to get away when obviously hit. Naturally, I thought it was me and doubled down on my concentration but the problem continued. Finally, I recovered two animals and both had huge holes in the near side of the ribcage where the bullet turned sideways and plowed up the near ribcage only damaging the near lung. Thinking that it was a burned out barrel I sold it and bought another 257 that has performed flawlessly. Since then I learned about the problems with copper fouling and thought that might be the problem but I'll never be sure. Dave, do you (or anyone here) have any insights on this wier bullet behavior?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Hunter_Fass wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

I agree with WA Mtn Hunter 100%

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

To Pb head: Some powders do burn cooler than others. For example, most spherical powder do not burn as hot as extruded powder. However, this is significant only with military arms which are fired a lot, and on full auto where they really get scorched. In civilian guns, I doubt if you'd see any difference.

to Beekeeper: Copper fouling is as ruinous to barrels as powder gas, and works a lot quicker. Very few bores are burned out; plenty are wrecked by copper deposits. I believe that between pure copper and gilding metal, pure copper fouls worse, as it's soft and tends to smear.

to Steve in Virginia: I'd guess--guess--that a .270 chrome-moly barrel would be good for 3,000 rounds before it began to slip. A stainless barrel would last longer. A .30/05 is probably good for 5,000. There are probably a dozen variables involved, so it's hard to give a general figure, but even the shortest-lived barrel is good for 1,500 rounds or so, which is a lot of shooting. I have a .300 Weatherby that I got in 1965, and which is supposed to be hell on barrels, that is still perfectly good.

To Harold: Actual bullet tumbling sounds more like damage to the muzzle. If there are nicks or dents in the rifling at the crown, that can send a bullet end over end.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

That should, of course, be .30/06.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Safado wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

If you can live with a shorter barrel you can shorten the rifle from the chamber end and have it rechambered since the worst damage happens at the chamber end. I agree about copper fouling being a major contributer as well. The key is to avoid shooting a barrle that gets so hot the scope rings start glowing!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from buckhunter wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

A buddy of mine purchased a 220 Swift at a rock bottom price because the owner thought the barrel was shot out. After spending a few weeks cleaning out the copper it now drives tacks, again.

I am guessing a trained eye can tell the difference between a burned out barrel and a fouled barrel?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Harold wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

To Dave:

Thanks for the response. However, when fired at paper it printed normal round holes. It was only when it hit flesh that it did abnormal things. Would that still be a dinged crown?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Amflyer wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

This sounds oddly similar to a conversation between myself and my gastroenterologist.

"It’s charred an unattractive black, and cracks and fissures develop at the rear end...where the flame is most intense."

Indeed.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

To Buckhunter: There is a device called a borescope, made by Hawkeye Instruments, that you shove up (or down) the barrel and take a look. A burned out bore looks like an atom bomb test site--charred black, no rifling, the surface of the steel alligatored. Even an untrained eye can read the sad story told here.

To Harold: If they're hitting OK on paper, they're flying true. It sounds like the ones that keyholed hit a twig or something on their way to the animal and started tumbling. Some bullets can keyhole when they hit a critter, but they have to get past the hide.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from bruisedsausage wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Harold,

Your bullets may not have been key-holing at all. Its possible and I've seen it in one rifle, where the bore is out of tolerance near the center(middle of barrel roughly). As the bullet enters this section hot gases are squeezed very rapidly past the outer edge of the bullet,(much more than is normal) which in turn causes the projectile to turn into an almost molten projectile. When the projectile hits something solid all kinds of bizarre things can happen.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tim Platt wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

So Dave what about .22 rim fires? Is it true you cannot shoot one out? I have heard this, but I think I have done it.

I have shot well over 10,000 rounds probably closer to 30,000 or 40,000 and it has been overheated. Something is causing it problems I have been messing with the scope for a while and cleaned it as well as is humanly possible with a brush. Yet it is not the same gun it was 15 years ago.

Please say yes so I can begin the search for a new 10/22 heavy barrel. Which would you recommend?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from chaslee wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

I bought it to shoot it. Jalapeños do the same thing to my other equipment. Burns it out.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

So what you're sayin` Dave is my guns will be groupin(for hunting) nicely until I die!
Thanks for the info!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from buckstopper wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Dave
Shucks, I was looking forward to your review of the new wildcat 30/05. Is that the new Zombie round?
BTW your thoughts in this months bullet points concerning a Lead Sled are right on. I use a Lead Sled to work up a handload to save my arthrytic shoulder but when its time to zero the scope I pull out the sand bags and go prone.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from cliff68 wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

As some other rifle maker or writer was on a PD hunt and his buddy informed him that his barrel was about to melt, he mentioned that somewhere right now someone is building new barrels, so I don't worry about it.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Barrel melts a little?

Good God Dave, it's called oxidation just like a cutting torch cutting through steel and that's the #1 reason the 264 Win Mag never caught on.

-1 Good Comment? | | Report
from 1uglymutha wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

there's not a nickle's worth of difference between a .264 win mag shooting 140s versus a .270 shooting 130s.
you'll get just about as much usable barrel life with one as you will the other, everything else being equal.
the .264 as a barrel burner is just another urban legend started by some gun writer and parroted by others.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

To Dr. Ralph: Go thou and buy a new gun, with my blessing. I've never seen any kind of authoritative estimate on .22 rf barrel life, and the consensus seems to be that you can't wear one out unless you abuse it. I can't guess what's troubling your present rifle. Satan? If you want a good heavy barrel, I'd get a 10/22 with a good heavy barrel.

To Cliff 68: That was Melvin Forbes, who said: "Right now, barrel makers are making new barrels whether we want them to or not, so why worry about it?" Good advice.

To Clay Cooper: The reason the .264 didn't catch on was because Jack O'Connor said it wasn't as good as the .270, and because when it was introduced Winchester was making really bad Model 70s, and because in order to get the advertised ballistics, Winchester had to use a 26-inch barrel and a two-diameter bullet, and people said, "Why bother?"

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Harold wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

To Dave and Bruisedsausage: Thanks. I'll probably never know for sure what happened but this gives me something more to go on. I hope it never happens again. I absolutely HATE wounding animals even though I know that if you hunt long enough, sooner or later it will happen.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

That's true Dave but it doesn't explain away the exhilarated throat erosion of a large case on a smaller caliber. A good example of this is the 357 Maximum flame cutting the top strap.

Since firearm propellants have there on fuel and oxidation to burn in a total vacuum, it’s the oxidation in the burning process that does the most erosion/damage.

By the way a 30-06 with a 24 inch barrel, 52,000 psi chamber pressure the muzzle pressure is around 12,000 psi

As for Jack O'Connor, you do know Dave if someone gave him a customized bayonet to fit his 270, you know he would be using it fixed to his rifle to cut his steak in “Fine Restaurants”! A bit of hyperbole, but the message is clear.

Bottom line, those who have no knowledge in metallurgy will have difficulty grasping this, just don't take it personal the sun still rises and sets and only God Almighty can change that. But rumors are circulating that Dave is developing a new rifle 416 cal Thunder________. The last shot at the test facility, Astronomist have noted a slight shift in the earths axes which maybe accountable for the weather conditions we are now experiencing.

Have a blessed and miraculous day David and the next one is on me Bro!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

This has been a Coffee House moment :)

Keep the barrel hot and the "X" Ring full of holes,

TARGETS UP!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from firedog11 wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Great posts by all. Any particular books that really explain this in a way that a layman like me would find useful?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

firedog11

If I was going to teach a credited class on this subject, the prerequisite before the first class would be reading

"Hatcher's Notebook"

Barry in IN on the blog The American Survival Guide summed it up the best,

"I think this is one of the better general shooting books ever. General Julian S. Hatcher was in Army Ordnance forever, saw the development of most of the small arms between the Spanish-American and Korean War, machineguns of all types, and other arms up through light cannon. After retiring from the Army as a Major General, he became the NRA's Technical Editor.

And all the while, he experimented.

His "Hatcher's Notebook" contains notes and articles about a wide range of shooting subjects. What happens when you shoot a rifle straight up into the air? What was the real story behind the low-numbered 1903 Springfields blowing up? How do different bullet profiles change trajectory and wind deflection values?

I have a copy that I refer to often. I never have read it straight through, but have read all of it a few times over."

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

1uglymutha

Have you ever rubbed shoulders of those who did extensive load testing for different calibers?

I have, many of them including myself.

Hey WAM, I can visualize you doing something like this if that had it back in the 60's. Imagine Army Rangers blowing in like this!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkQXVAtxbis&feature=fvwrel

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Amflyer wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

"everything else being equal."

But that's just it...nothing else is equal.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from 1uglymutha wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

read an article on accurateshooter.com where someone put a calculator to work and figured out that, figuring the time the bullet actually spends in the bore after being fired, the average barrel lasts only approximately 6 seconds. not much barrel life, no matter which caliber you use.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from deadeyedick wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

If and when you decide to replace a barrel make darn sure the gunsmith you choose knows what he is doing. I have come across more than a few that couldn't fix a peashooter. find one that is willing to spend the time to tweak every last bit of accuracy from your new barrel

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Safado wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

1uglymutha,
I read that same article. It doesn't seem like a lot of time but that's where the powder load to bore ratio matters and why a 220 Swift will burn out before a 30-06.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

1uglymutha

If you understand doing something like this,

www.fieldandstream.com/photos/trophyroom/recent/single?pnid=1001449314#1...

You will understand oxidation and the effects there of.

Enough said...

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

if there's a windchill factor in winter temperature, how about the effect of those powder gases travelling at more than twice the muzzle velocity of a 22-250 bullet? That has to mean something, right?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Del in KS wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Dave, I have coated my rifle bores with Ultraborecoat and use copper bullets from Barnes almost exclusively. So far have not noticed any wear in my Weatherby Vanguard in 300 Roy, Kimber 25-06 or ER Shaw 22-250. Wondering if barrel life will be extended by that coating. No doubt time and shooting will tell. BTW that Vanguard is so well designed the recoil is not a factor. Note that I do not shoot with a hot barrel as accuracy usually suffers.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from AlaskanExile wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Clay;
I believe that a lot of why the 264 Win Mag never caught on had to do with timing; it had barely started moving down the track when it got totally run-over by a freight-train of marketing genius called the 7mm Remington Magnum.
I grew up deep in the Rockies of Montana, there were lots of elk and lots of elk hunters, and by the time I started hunting (in the early 80's) the 7mm was flat-out revered for it's long range killing power.
It was worshipped by some and respected by most. I've seen the ballistics charts, and shot a few rifles since then and I know that it is mostly hype but lots and lots of people bought into that hype.
I own a 7mm Rem, and I like it, but it's not magic or at least I don't believe that it is.
I think the 264 was dead, still-born actually, before anyone had a chance to burn out the barrel of one.
Some of you "more experienced" guys can maybe back this up, but I've heard that when the 264 came out it was very hard to get any ammo for it, and what you could find was too light for big game.
I like the 264, and I still plan to build one, barrel burner or not. With the powders and bullets we have today, it's going to be a lot of fun.

Cheers;
AKX

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Safado wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

AlaskanExile,
I'm with you on the 264...I've always been interested in them, didn't really know why they didn't catch on but I would like one. I shoot 22-250 and a .240 Weatherby magnum both are supposed to be barrel burners. I haven't noticed any bore erosion yet but I don't shoot if my barrel gets so hot that I can't hold it. I don't use the .240 for prolonged varmint shooting either.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

AlaskanExile you’re absolutely right about the 264 getting slammed by the 7mm Rem Mag even though they have the same case design. I wonder if the 264 was named 6.5 Win Mag? it might have been more appealing??? One thing I do know, in Tucson Arizona I was plugged into a lot of reloaders who tinkered around with the 264 Win Mag and they all complained about once they found a load they liked, it wasn’t long before it was time to rebarrel again. Another point to bring the best out in the 264 slower burning powders were needed due to its smaller caliber (going from 280 to 264) to get the performance they needed and David is dead on about using a 26 inch barrel to get the velocities needed to have any appreciation in this caliber & cartridge combination. As for long range, back then it was hard to beat the flat shooting 264 diameter 140 grain bullet. What I can figure out of all the reading materials, talking to those who tinkered with it and loading a few myself, there must be an oxidation spike going from 280 to 264 diameter. Slower burning powder creating more volume of gas of a smaller bore making a longer duration of exhausting gases. In other words, the velocity of the bullet was the same as the 7mm, but had much more volume of gas behind it to cut away at the throat of the bore. Just like a cutting torch, the flame when set, will melt the metal, but when you add more oxygen, it’s the oxidation that cuts. Got thinking what you said this morning, today carbon barrels are now used. What if ceramics was used to line the inside of the bore????

Something else to ponder about, I wonder if the 260 Remington going to meet the same fate of the 264 Win Mag? I would of named it the 6.5 Remington but the 7mm/08 already has a big start and catching up is going to be very hard.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tim Platt wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

I love the stillborn .264 comment. One of my old neighbors had a .264 Win Mag in what was probably a pretty bad model 70. I met him in the 1990's and that is the first and last .264 I have ever seen. The only ammo I ever saw for it was the Super X Winchester cheapest stuff. Maybe that is the reason it failed ha ha ha.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

The 6.5/.264 caliber, until recently, simply never caught on in America as a popular hunting cartridge, regardless of the merits of any particular cartridge in the caliber. Even after a good start, the .260 Remington couldn't overcome the curse of the 6.5. The .264 Win. Mag. was probably doomed from the start.

BUT, with the current black rifle trend, Bill Alexander's 6.5 Grendel just might become the most popular 6.5mm in American history, with the 6.5 Creedmoor second. Ironically, the Creedmoor, which is based on the .30 TC round, is essentially a tweaked .260 Rem.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

There's also the general lack of enthusiasm and unflattering reviews from gunwriters. There was one writer who reported he couldn't get his 6.5 Rem. Mag. to exceed 2,600 fps by much from his Model 600 carbine using 140-grain bullets, which essentially means it is no better than the 6.5x55 Swede. The same lackluster reviews killed the .264 Winchester, especially when compared to the .270.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from ejpaul1 wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

Im a bit dissapointed that Mr Petzal didnt address the barrel life of a 478 thunder F@#!er.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

O Garcia you’re seriously on to something there, if the 6.5 Grendel & Creedmoor just might remove the curse? What I love about the 260 Remington is the tons of 308 cases available especially the Military M118 7.62 NATO which has an annealed neck and close to a match case as you can get without buying it.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

ejpaul1

This mourning I found out David is in a plea agreement with the United States for shooting his 478 thunder F@#!er Improved which ricochet and knocked out a few communication satellites. The current plea agreement is to allow the US Government to use his design as a the next generation Anti-Satellite and Anti-ICBM Defense System. Next month, test trials will begin using the system as a mobile platform in a Subaru Outback and because of the pretest results it looks favorable David will walk a free man with some pocket change of a few Billion.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from AlaskanExile wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

Clay;
I don't believe the 260 Remington is going to fail. I think it is making a pretty strong run, it got off to a slow start but I think it's doing ok now.
I own one, a custom barrel on a Left-hand Rem 788 action. (There's a rifle I wish Big R would bring back!)
Federal, Remington, Nosler, Black Hills, Cor-Bon etc all make ammo for it. Midway stocks 23 different loads (vice 11 in 264, of which only 1 each are Remington and Wincheser, and 1 load for 6.5 Remington).
I think most rifle manufacturers (Browning, Savage, Tikka, Ruger) all make rifles chambered in 260, as well as most 308 based AR-10 sized rifles offer the chambering as an option too.(Conversely I think the Creedmore is a flash in the pan).
I really like the 260, but I don't shoot it enough, I have only killed one deer with it ( muley doe at around 250 yards)which I hit badly and had to finish when I got there. Not the rifle's fault, I pushed a bad hold and hit her too far back. Gut shooting one is it's own "reward".
I would shoot a moose or elk with it, and if confronted with a big brown bear, I wouldn't drop it until it was empty.
I love using 762 military brass too.
I like the ceramic bore lining idea, I bet that would be very hard and slippery for the bullets, they would get awesome velocity and not foul as much either.

AKX

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

AlaskanExile

I inherited a 6.5x55 from my Father which I love shooting. 139's shoot high but with 140's is a tack driver.

To bad you wasn't local, I'd give'ya a hundred or two of once fired in my M1A during NRA Matches 7.62 NATO M118 cases setting around just collecting dust.

If I had to start over again, the 260 Rem would difinitly be on my list, it's a reloaders dream. As for the Creedmore, I believe only High Power Competition Shooters will be the ones giving life support to this cartridge.

www.fieldandstream.com/photos/trophyroom/recent/single?pnid=1001444530#1...

I'm wondering what's the difference of the metallurgy used back in the 60's compared to todays barrels? That would be a good investigation and excellent read for David to check out!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from firedog11 wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

Thanks Clay. I will look for a copy.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

firedog11

It's crammed with good hard facts. Everything I read today, you can pretty much reference it to Hatchers work. Reminds me of Al Gore discovering Love Canal and creating the internet...

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from hhack wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

with barrel life there really is only one simple rule with this very complex issue and that is powder to bore ratio. The larger this ratio the shorter the barrel life will be. the key to squeezing the most out of a barrel is to keep it clean and the most important keep it cool.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

hhack

I've got my Match M1A excruciating hot a many times during "Rattle Battles" and still holds the "X" ring at 600 yards.

I'm still kicking around the idea of using ceramic lined bores?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

hhack

Your dead on, "powder to bore ratio. The larger this ratio the shorter the barrel life will be."

Why didn't I say that? LOL!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from 99explorer wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

This may have been the thinking behind the Browning-designed U.S.1917 water-cooled heavy machinegun.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from hhack wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

Clay Cooper
The reason you can heat up a 308 and still have a relatively long barrel life has to do with the 308 efficient design(good powder to bore ratio). If you took another barrel from the same lot and never heated it up past 5 rapid shots between cooling sessions it would out last your "rattle battle" comp barrel. Barrel heat is a big part of the equation. To really see this you would have to use something more notably harder on barrels such as a 6.5-284. Most BR shooters get 400-800 rounds out of a 6.5-284 barrel. They shoot long strings in matches 20 rounds rapid succession. The same barrels on hunting rig get anywhere from 1200-1800 rounds depending on all the circumstances. I try to take care of my barrels when practicing and then I don't worry about it for comp. or hunting.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from hhack wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

Barrel life is something to be conscious of but I would never lose any sleep over it.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

I often wonder if the bullet sealant from M118 has a lubrication effect?

0 Good Comment? | | Report

Post a Comment

from WA Mtnhunter wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

I wish I had time to wear out some barrels!

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

To Dr. Ralph: Go thou and buy a new gun, with my blessing. I've never seen any kind of authoritative estimate on .22 rf barrel life, and the consensus seems to be that you can't wear one out unless you abuse it. I can't guess what's troubling your present rifle. Satan? If you want a good heavy barrel, I'd get a 10/22 with a good heavy barrel.

To Cliff 68: That was Melvin Forbes, who said: "Right now, barrel makers are making new barrels whether we want them to or not, so why worry about it?" Good advice.

To Clay Cooper: The reason the .264 didn't catch on was because Jack O'Connor said it wasn't as good as the .270, and because when it was introduced Winchester was making really bad Model 70s, and because in order to get the advertised ballistics, Winchester had to use a 26-inch barrel and a two-diameter bullet, and people said, "Why bother?"

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

In 40-years I've only seen one rifle barrel shot-out. It was a 264 Mag custom woodchuck rifle with somewhere's 1k shots through it.

I've had a couple of 220 Swifts showing wear near the chamber after 800-900 rounds, but lapping revived the rifle for another couple of seasons...at least.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Amflyer wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

This sounds oddly similar to a conversation between myself and my gastroenterologist.

"It’s charred an unattractive black, and cracks and fissures develop at the rear end...where the flame is most intense."

Indeed.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from chaslee wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

I bought it to shoot it. Jalapeños do the same thing to my other equipment. Burns it out.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

That's true Dave but it doesn't explain away the exhilarated throat erosion of a large case on a smaller caliber. A good example of this is the 357 Maximum flame cutting the top strap.

Since firearm propellants have there on fuel and oxidation to burn in a total vacuum, it’s the oxidation in the burning process that does the most erosion/damage.

By the way a 30-06 with a 24 inch barrel, 52,000 psi chamber pressure the muzzle pressure is around 12,000 psi

As for Jack O'Connor, you do know Dave if someone gave him a customized bayonet to fit his 270, you know he would be using it fixed to his rifle to cut his steak in “Fine Restaurants”! A bit of hyperbole, but the message is clear.

Bottom line, those who have no knowledge in metallurgy will have difficulty grasping this, just don't take it personal the sun still rises and sets and only God Almighty can change that. But rumors are circulating that Dave is developing a new rifle 416 cal Thunder________. The last shot at the test facility, Astronomist have noted a slight shift in the earths axes which maybe accountable for the weather conditions we are now experiencing.

Have a blessed and miraculous day David and the next one is on me Bro!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

To Pb head: Some powders do burn cooler than others. For example, most spherical powder do not burn as hot as extruded powder. However, this is significant only with military arms which are fired a lot, and on full auto where they really get scorched. In civilian guns, I doubt if you'd see any difference.

to Beekeeper: Copper fouling is as ruinous to barrels as powder gas, and works a lot quicker. Very few bores are burned out; plenty are wrecked by copper deposits. I believe that between pure copper and gilding metal, pure copper fouls worse, as it's soft and tends to smear.

to Steve in Virginia: I'd guess--guess--that a .270 chrome-moly barrel would be good for 3,000 rounds before it began to slip. A stainless barrel would last longer. A .30/05 is probably good for 5,000. There are probably a dozen variables involved, so it's hard to give a general figure, but even the shortest-lived barrel is good for 1,500 rounds or so, which is a lot of shooting. I have a .300 Weatherby that I got in 1965, and which is supposed to be hell on barrels, that is still perfectly good.

To Harold: Actual bullet tumbling sounds more like damage to the muzzle. If there are nicks or dents in the rifling at the crown, that can send a bullet end over end.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

That should, of course, be .30/06.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Beekeeper wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Dave, does fouling buildup speed up this process. Would there be a differencve in fouling from guilding metal and soild copper slugs?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from PbHead wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Dave, some manufacturers claim that their powder burns cooler, not as hot, or whatever. If this is correct, is it enough to make a difference in barrel life?

Thanks for the interesting opinions and information.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from firedog11 wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Great posts by all. Any particular books that really explain this in a way that a layman like me would find useful?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from firedog11 wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

Thanks Clay. I will look for a copy.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from buckstopper wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Dave
Shucks, I was looking forward to your review of the new wildcat 30/05. Is that the new Zombie round?
BTW your thoughts in this months bullet points concerning a Lead Sled are right on. I use a Lead Sled to work up a handload to save my arthrytic shoulder but when its time to zero the scope I pull out the sand bags and go prone.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Harold wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

To Dave and Bruisedsausage: Thanks. I'll probably never know for sure what happened but this gives me something more to go on. I hope it never happens again. I absolutely HATE wounding animals even though I know that if you hunt long enough, sooner or later it will happen.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Steve in Virginia wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

This topic comes up from time to time. Dave -- order to spare me and countless others sleepless nights, can you give us a general sense of how many rounds of say, .270 Winchester, a rifle can handle before you begin to notice changes in accuracy (assuming a factor barrel and a regular cleaning schedule)? I seem to recall in previous articles that barrels are usually good for lots of shots (in the thousands) before one achieving the kind of wear that leads one to consider re-barreling. What say you?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from cliff68 wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

As some other rifle maker or writer was on a PD hunt and his buddy informed him that his barrel was about to melt, he mentioned that somewhere right now someone is building new barrels, so I don't worry about it.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from 99explorer wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

This may have been the thinking behind the Browning-designed U.S.1917 water-cooled heavy machinegun.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

firedog11

If I was going to teach a credited class on this subject, the prerequisite before the first class would be reading

"Hatcher's Notebook"

Barry in IN on the blog The American Survival Guide summed it up the best,

"I think this is one of the better general shooting books ever. General Julian S. Hatcher was in Army Ordnance forever, saw the development of most of the small arms between the Spanish-American and Korean War, machineguns of all types, and other arms up through light cannon. After retiring from the Army as a Major General, he became the NRA's Technical Editor.

And all the while, he experimented.

His "Hatcher's Notebook" contains notes and articles about a wide range of shooting subjects. What happens when you shoot a rifle straight up into the air? What was the real story behind the low-numbered 1903 Springfields blowing up? How do different bullet profiles change trajectory and wind deflection values?

I have a copy that I refer to often. I never have read it straight through, but have read all of it a few times over."

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

firedog11

It's crammed with good hard facts. Everything I read today, you can pretty much reference it to Hatchers work. Reminds me of Al Gore discovering Love Canal and creating the internet...

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Safado wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

1uglymutha,
I read that same article. It doesn't seem like a lot of time but that's where the powder load to bore ratio matters and why a 220 Swift will burn out before a 30-06.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from hhack wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

Clay Cooper
The reason you can heat up a 308 and still have a relatively long barrel life has to do with the 308 efficient design(good powder to bore ratio). If you took another barrel from the same lot and never heated it up past 5 rapid shots between cooling sessions it would out last your "rattle battle" comp barrel. Barrel heat is a big part of the equation. To really see this you would have to use something more notably harder on barrels such as a 6.5-284. Most BR shooters get 400-800 rounds out of a 6.5-284 barrel. They shoot long strings in matches 20 rounds rapid succession. The same barrels on hunting rig get anywhere from 1200-1800 rounds depending on all the circumstances. I try to take care of my barrels when practicing and then I don't worry about it for comp. or hunting.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from hhack wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

Barrel life is something to be conscious of but I would never lose any sleep over it.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

To Buckhunter: There is a device called a borescope, made by Hawkeye Instruments, that you shove up (or down) the barrel and take a look. A burned out bore looks like an atom bomb test site--charred black, no rifling, the surface of the steel alligatored. Even an untrained eye can read the sad story told here.

To Harold: If they're hitting OK on paper, they're flying true. It sounds like the ones that keyholed hit a twig or something on their way to the animal and started tumbling. Some bullets can keyhole when they hit a critter, but they have to get past the hide.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Del in KS wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Dave, I have coated my rifle bores with Ultraborecoat and use copper bullets from Barnes almost exclusively. So far have not noticed any wear in my Weatherby Vanguard in 300 Roy, Kimber 25-06 or ER Shaw 22-250. Wondering if barrel life will be extended by that coating. No doubt time and shooting will tell. BTW that Vanguard is so well designed the recoil is not a factor. Note that I do not shoot with a hot barrel as accuracy usually suffers.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tim Platt wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

So Dave what about .22 rim fires? Is it true you cannot shoot one out? I have heard this, but I think I have done it.

I have shot well over 10,000 rounds probably closer to 30,000 or 40,000 and it has been overheated. Something is causing it problems I have been messing with the scope for a while and cleaned it as well as is humanly possible with a brush. Yet it is not the same gun it was 15 years ago.

Please say yes so I can begin the search for a new 10/22 heavy barrel. Which would you recommend?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tim Platt wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

I love the stillborn .264 comment. One of my old neighbors had a .264 Win Mag in what was probably a pretty bad model 70. I met him in the 1990's and that is the first and last .264 I have ever seen. The only ammo I ever saw for it was the Super X Winchester cheapest stuff. Maybe that is the reason it failed ha ha ha.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from buckhunter wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

A buddy of mine purchased a 220 Swift at a rock bottom price because the owner thought the barrel was shot out. After spending a few weeks cleaning out the copper it now drives tacks, again.

I am guessing a trained eye can tell the difference between a burned out barrel and a fouled barrel?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from AlaskanExile wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Clay;
I believe that a lot of why the 264 Win Mag never caught on had to do with timing; it had barely started moving down the track when it got totally run-over by a freight-train of marketing genius called the 7mm Remington Magnum.
I grew up deep in the Rockies of Montana, there were lots of elk and lots of elk hunters, and by the time I started hunting (in the early 80's) the 7mm was flat-out revered for it's long range killing power.
It was worshipped by some and respected by most. I've seen the ballistics charts, and shot a few rifles since then and I know that it is mostly hype but lots and lots of people bought into that hype.
I own a 7mm Rem, and I like it, but it's not magic or at least I don't believe that it is.
I think the 264 was dead, still-born actually, before anyone had a chance to burn out the barrel of one.
Some of you "more experienced" guys can maybe back this up, but I've heard that when the 264 came out it was very hard to get any ammo for it, and what you could find was too light for big game.
I like the 264, and I still plan to build one, barrel burner or not. With the powders and bullets we have today, it's going to be a lot of fun.

Cheers;
AKX

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from AlaskanExile wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

Clay;
I don't believe the 260 Remington is going to fail. I think it is making a pretty strong run, it got off to a slow start but I think it's doing ok now.
I own one, a custom barrel on a Left-hand Rem 788 action. (There's a rifle I wish Big R would bring back!)
Federal, Remington, Nosler, Black Hills, Cor-Bon etc all make ammo for it. Midway stocks 23 different loads (vice 11 in 264, of which only 1 each are Remington and Wincheser, and 1 load for 6.5 Remington).
I think most rifle manufacturers (Browning, Savage, Tikka, Ruger) all make rifles chambered in 260, as well as most 308 based AR-10 sized rifles offer the chambering as an option too.(Conversely I think the Creedmore is a flash in the pan).
I really like the 260, but I don't shoot it enough, I have only killed one deer with it ( muley doe at around 250 yards)which I hit badly and had to finish when I got there. Not the rifle's fault, I pushed a bad hold and hit her too far back. Gut shooting one is it's own "reward".
I would shoot a moose or elk with it, and if confronted with a big brown bear, I wouldn't drop it until it was empty.
I love using 762 military brass too.
I like the ceramic bore lining idea, I bet that would be very hard and slippery for the bullets, they would get awesome velocity and not foul as much either.

AKX

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Amflyer wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

"everything else being equal."

But that's just it...nothing else is equal.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Harold wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Dave,

Many years ago, I once had a Remington 722 (or 721, whichever is the short action) in 257 Roberts. It did just as you described: It started out shooting right at 1" at 100yds with my favorite load. For many years it did this and it gave one-shot kills. Then the accuracy started to deteriorate to about 1.25". However something else started to happen at that time that had me mystified. Animals started to get away when obviously hit. Naturally, I thought it was me and doubled down on my concentration but the problem continued. Finally, I recovered two animals and both had huge holes in the near side of the ribcage where the bullet turned sideways and plowed up the near ribcage only damaging the near lung. Thinking that it was a burned out barrel I sold it and bought another 257 that has performed flawlessly. Since then I learned about the problems with copper fouling and thought that might be the problem but I'll never be sure. Dave, do you (or anyone here) have any insights on this wier bullet behavior?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Harold wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

To Dave:

Thanks for the response. However, when fired at paper it printed normal round holes. It was only when it hit flesh that it did abnormal things. Would that still be a dinged crown?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

So what you're sayin` Dave is my guns will be groupin(for hunting) nicely until I die!
Thanks for the info!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

if there's a windchill factor in winter temperature, how about the effect of those powder gases travelling at more than twice the muzzle velocity of a 22-250 bullet? That has to mean something, right?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

The 6.5/.264 caliber, until recently, simply never caught on in America as a popular hunting cartridge, regardless of the merits of any particular cartridge in the caliber. Even after a good start, the .260 Remington couldn't overcome the curse of the 6.5. The .264 Win. Mag. was probably doomed from the start.

BUT, with the current black rifle trend, Bill Alexander's 6.5 Grendel just might become the most popular 6.5mm in American history, with the 6.5 Creedmoor second. Ironically, the Creedmoor, which is based on the .30 TC round, is essentially a tweaked .260 Rem.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

There's also the general lack of enthusiasm and unflattering reviews from gunwriters. There was one writer who reported he couldn't get his 6.5 Rem. Mag. to exceed 2,600 fps by much from his Model 600 carbine using 140-grain bullets, which essentially means it is no better than the 6.5x55 Swede. The same lackluster reviews killed the .264 Winchester, especially when compared to the .270.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from deadeyedick wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

If and when you decide to replace a barrel make darn sure the gunsmith you choose knows what he is doing. I have come across more than a few that couldn't fix a peashooter. find one that is willing to spend the time to tweak every last bit of accuracy from your new barrel

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from 1uglymutha wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

there's not a nickle's worth of difference between a .264 win mag shooting 140s versus a .270 shooting 130s.
you'll get just about as much usable barrel life with one as you will the other, everything else being equal.
the .264 as a barrel burner is just another urban legend started by some gun writer and parroted by others.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from 1uglymutha wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

read an article on accurateshooter.com where someone put a calculator to work and figured out that, figuring the time the bullet actually spends in the bore after being fired, the average barrel lasts only approximately 6 seconds. not much barrel life, no matter which caliber you use.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

This has been a Coffee House moment :)

Keep the barrel hot and the "X" Ring full of holes,

TARGETS UP!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

1uglymutha

Have you ever rubbed shoulders of those who did extensive load testing for different calibers?

I have, many of them including myself.

Hey WAM, I can visualize you doing something like this if that had it back in the 60's. Imagine Army Rangers blowing in like this!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkQXVAtxbis&feature=fvwrel

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

1uglymutha

If you understand doing something like this,

www.fieldandstream.com/photos/trophyroom/recent/single?pnid=1001449314#1...

You will understand oxidation and the effects there of.

Enough said...

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

AlaskanExile you’re absolutely right about the 264 getting slammed by the 7mm Rem Mag even though they have the same case design. I wonder if the 264 was named 6.5 Win Mag? it might have been more appealing??? One thing I do know, in Tucson Arizona I was plugged into a lot of reloaders who tinkered around with the 264 Win Mag and they all complained about once they found a load they liked, it wasn’t long before it was time to rebarrel again. Another point to bring the best out in the 264 slower burning powders were needed due to its smaller caliber (going from 280 to 264) to get the performance they needed and David is dead on about using a 26 inch barrel to get the velocities needed to have any appreciation in this caliber & cartridge combination. As for long range, back then it was hard to beat the flat shooting 264 diameter 140 grain bullet. What I can figure out of all the reading materials, talking to those who tinkered with it and loading a few myself, there must be an oxidation spike going from 280 to 264 diameter. Slower burning powder creating more volume of gas of a smaller bore making a longer duration of exhausting gases. In other words, the velocity of the bullet was the same as the 7mm, but had much more volume of gas behind it to cut away at the throat of the bore. Just like a cutting torch, the flame when set, will melt the metal, but when you add more oxygen, it’s the oxidation that cuts. Got thinking what you said this morning, today carbon barrels are now used. What if ceramics was used to line the inside of the bore????

Something else to ponder about, I wonder if the 260 Remington going to meet the same fate of the 264 Win Mag? I would of named it the 6.5 Remington but the 7mm/08 already has a big start and catching up is going to be very hard.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

O Garcia you’re seriously on to something there, if the 6.5 Grendel & Creedmoor just might remove the curse? What I love about the 260 Remington is the tons of 308 cases available especially the Military M118 7.62 NATO which has an annealed neck and close to a match case as you can get without buying it.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

ejpaul1

This mourning I found out David is in a plea agreement with the United States for shooting his 478 thunder F@#!er Improved which ricochet and knocked out a few communication satellites. The current plea agreement is to allow the US Government to use his design as a the next generation Anti-Satellite and Anti-ICBM Defense System. Next month, test trials will begin using the system as a mobile platform in a Subaru Outback and because of the pretest results it looks favorable David will walk a free man with some pocket change of a few Billion.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

AlaskanExile

I inherited a 6.5x55 from my Father which I love shooting. 139's shoot high but with 140's is a tack driver.

To bad you wasn't local, I'd give'ya a hundred or two of once fired in my M1A during NRA Matches 7.62 NATO M118 cases setting around just collecting dust.

If I had to start over again, the 260 Rem would difinitly be on my list, it's a reloaders dream. As for the Creedmore, I believe only High Power Competition Shooters will be the ones giving life support to this cartridge.

www.fieldandstream.com/photos/trophyroom/recent/single?pnid=1001444530#1...

I'm wondering what's the difference of the metallurgy used back in the 60's compared to todays barrels? That would be a good investigation and excellent read for David to check out!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

hhack

I've got my Match M1A excruciating hot a many times during "Rattle Battles" and still holds the "X" ring at 600 yards.

I'm still kicking around the idea of using ceramic lined bores?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

hhack

Your dead on, "powder to bore ratio. The larger this ratio the shorter the barrel life will be."

Why didn't I say that? LOL!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

I often wonder if the bullet sealant from M118 has a lubrication effect?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from bruisedsausage wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Harold,

Your bullets may not have been key-holing at all. Its possible and I've seen it in one rifle, where the bore is out of tolerance near the center(middle of barrel roughly). As the bullet enters this section hot gases are squeezed very rapidly past the outer edge of the bullet,(much more than is normal) which in turn causes the projectile to turn into an almost molten projectile. When the projectile hits something solid all kinds of bizarre things can happen.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Hunter_Fass wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

I agree with WA Mtn Hunter 100%

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Safado wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

If you can live with a shorter barrel you can shorten the rifle from the chamber end and have it rechambered since the worst damage happens at the chamber end. I agree about copper fouling being a major contributer as well. The key is to avoid shooting a barrle that gets so hot the scope rings start glowing!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Safado wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

AlaskanExile,
I'm with you on the 264...I've always been interested in them, didn't really know why they didn't catch on but I would like one. I shoot 22-250 and a .240 Weatherby magnum both are supposed to be barrel burners. I haven't noticed any bore erosion yet but I don't shoot if my barrel gets so hot that I can't hold it. I don't use the .240 for prolonged varmint shooting either.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from ejpaul1 wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

Im a bit dissapointed that Mr Petzal didnt address the barrel life of a 478 thunder F@#!er.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from hhack wrote 1 year 33 weeks ago

with barrel life there really is only one simple rule with this very complex issue and that is powder to bore ratio. The larger this ratio the shorter the barrel life will be. the key to squeezing the most out of a barrel is to keep it clean and the most important keep it cool.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 34 weeks ago

Barrel melts a little?

Good God Dave, it's called oxidation just like a cutting torch cutting through steel and that's the #1 reason the 264 Win Mag never caught on.

-1 Good Comment? | | Report

Post a Comment