


September 21, 2009
Discussion Topic: On Henry’s “Guns and Religion” Ad
From The New York Times:
[Henry Repeating Arms’ newest print ad shows a man wearing] a holster with a gun on one side and a Bible on the other.
“There is nothing wrong with clinging to your guns and religion,” the headline reads, quoting Anthony Imperato, president at Henry, in a clear reference to a remark last year by Barack Obama before he was elected president. . . .

Henry is hedging its bets a bit . . . . After declaring, “We believe in God, Our Country and Our Freedoms,” the ad goes on to say: “If you do too, we’d love to hear from you. If you don’t, that’s fine too — it’s another freedom we’re proud of and we apologize if this ad has offended you.”
“There is a little bit of trepidation” about the potential print ad, Mr. Imperato said, although it may have the effect of helping the company “sell a ton of Bible holsters.”
Check out the full story and tell us what you think of Henry’s new ad? Does it make you want to run out and buy a Henry? Or maybe a Bible holster?
[Here’s a pdf of the ad, from the NYT: ]
Comments (83)
I see nothing wrong with it and I'm sure with all the anti-big government sentiment floating around right now it'll help them sell a few sporting arms.
And isn't that the point?
Just a company espousing their First and Second Amendment rights. I salute them and hope their campaign goes well.
Good for them. I think it's an interesting concept.
Thank goodness for someone willing to stand up for our Bible and our 2nd amendment rights, especially at the same time. Well done, Henry!!
I've little use for religions but their ad wouldn't stop me from buying one of their reilfes and does not offend me.
He had to reason to apologize. Seems Henry is the only firearms company I see advertising on regular (non-pay) TV any more.
I don't think there's anything offensive about this add at all. Even someone not into guns or religion would have to be pretty thin skinned to get worked up over this. It should be an effective add campaign. This reminds me--I need to find out why my Henry .22 mag is misfiring.
"Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition."
Gee, why would we cling to these things?...Oh, it's because they're the foremost freedoms this country affords us and was founded upon. I get it.
I generally don't like when companies use religion to sell their product, but this is OK by me. Mostly it's a reminder of our so-called leaders skewed view of us. +1 for Herny
I like a company being honest about their values AND I like Henry's values.
Some of the big corporations donate millions to causes that are bad for society and are wrecking our nation. If it wasn't for watchdog groups like the American Family Associaiton, we wouldn't be the wiser about where we throw down our hard earned cash.
As for the ad itself, I would have changed the composition a bit -- but not the concept.
I love it, good for Henry repeating arms co.
they shouldn't apologize to anyone that this ad offends. It is our right to bear arms and speak as we so desire. It is also a persons right to be offended if they so choose to live a bitter and cantankerous life.
I like the add. If it offends people to bad. I don't see anything wrong with Henry speaking what they believe in.
its about time somebody stood up for what they believe in, ESPECIALLY GOD...who cares whether or not theyre "politically correct."...their use of freedom is correct...no matter what they say
I like the add, and also respect ones belief in god and the right to bear arms. I personally hold my belief of god in my heart. Seeings as I don't "Thump the Bible" I'd fill the empty holster with another six gun!
Sorry, should have read "... no reason to apologize." Sportsmen have been doing that much too much lately.
The fact people feel others have to apologize for believing in god and the right to self defense just shows how off track America has gone....both are things our country was founded on....we need to get back to the basics and the constitution before it is to late.....The Socialist States of North America doesn't sound like a country this citizen would want any part of....I for one will put a Henry on my to buy list...been wanting a little 22lr lever gun anyways....
Applause for Henry using it's head when coming up with this ad campaign. It should appeal to most Americans that religious freedom and the right to bear arms were two of the base rights that this country was founded upon.
After all the ads against guns and hunting that have been going around, it's high time somebody started pointing out what americans have done since they left england. Hunting has been a mainstay of providing food for a family for years, and we need to promote it better.
Guns are what make us able to fight wars, and for a guncompany to draw the religious card at precent seems specualtive to me, since thats exactly what the muslims are doing, and we really dont wanna play THEIRE game in this.. but henry isnt supplying warfare guns so theire kind of exemped from all that hoey, but still, someone in theire ad-department was probably thinking, hey lets make some extra cash selling guns to religious freaks.. and i dont care if theire christian,muslim ,jews or any other religion, religion and guns should be kept appart, history has shown us that, just like religion and goverment should be kept appart.. just get me right in this i like henry firearms and would like to have a 22 mag bolt singleshot with a custom laminate stock that was takedown in the pistolgrip as my "fit inside my backpack survival gun" but dont mix in religion even if its constitutional.. its like letting the big buck u cant get a surefire shot on go till the next time, cos u r a moral being.. theire firearms speak for themselves, this ad was unnessesary..
peace
HENRY, HENRY, HENRY... Great marketing add. It draws attention and is provocative in nature. I applaud you.
The add is done in good taste and at the right time.
Hopefully Ammo manufacturers and other firearms manufacturers will follow suit. While not using the same add topic but just as provocative and thought out.
I like the ad. It's simple and it says a lot.
Henry Arms is a made in USA company. Something they are very proud of and rightfully so. Going this direction with their ad campaign is no surprise.
This ad will only offend people who had problems before.
I really like this. Like people said they are exercising their 1st & 2nd amendment. Good for them!
Great ad, I can't find offense, and I do like Henry rifles. I think there will be a few requests for the custom holster.
hell yeah
Thats great.
My late father in law was a preacher. He kept two Bible cases in his car. One was loaded with The Word, the other was loaded with an H&K 9mm and four 18 round mags.
I never thought to conceal in a Bible case... pretty clever. I still have his H&K. It still lives in the Bible case. In my rig. Now I need to get a Henry and put it in a Bible case for my other rig.
A thought for ingebrigtsen:
At many points in time, there has been no freedom or tolerance of the practice of religion- many faiths included. It has been necessary to defend the right to worship according to the dictates of the conscience during many periods of history- recent and ancient. The founding of America’s first colonies should speak to that the loudest. Historically, Firearms have played a vital role in protecting the free exercise of religion, especially in the United States. On that premise, I disagree that the two subjects should be kept separate. You have alluded to the contemporary marketing scheme being dubiously clever, which has some merit, I agree. However, they are parallel freedoms, and to give up one or the other would mean losing both. Depending upon the sequence, you may risk to forfeit them simultaneously.
Someone thumping bibles or korans and waving theire guns around at the same time scares the crap out of me no matter what u say.. i dont mind people having a personal relationship with theire respective gods. but when theire so delutional that they think they need to point guns at anyone around them to "defend" theire religion there is something very very wrong with them.. and its the same people that often think they have a right to kill non-belivers given by god- meaning religious extremists yet again starting most of the wars the last couple of thousand years..
History, its fascinating ranger2, try reading some :P
inge,
I understand what you are saying but the man in the photo is not thumping his bible or waving his gun.
This Ad gives some conflicting messages. The first is kind of a visual oxymoron, If Jesus was the "Prince of Peace" would he approve of selling killing tools with his words? Well It is all right to cling to your guns and faith, this image reminds me of the millions "persuaded" top become Christian at gun or swords point. Christianity ordained so many of these "join or die" forced conversions, that many unenlightened folks think it is right and good to force people to change their religious affiliation (or die now). This Ad reminds me of how while I will always think well on the teachings of the Great Rabbi Yeshua, how little those teachings resemble what passes for "Xtianity" today.
Henry makes some good rifles, yes, but these fundie sentiments don't make me want to spend any money with 'em. I have met too many people who use the Bible to justify their bad behavior, and the unwritten script to the image strongly suggests religiously inspired violence. Reread the Book Henry! I suggest your corporate interpretation of scripture needs revision!
To look at the ad at first glance it could be offensive
to some.I do agree that it is your right to keep and bare arms but I also believe that Henry could sell guns to good god fearing people without this ad.
"Guns are what make us able to fight wars" is either
A)the stupidest statement ever made, or
B)the best tongue-in-cheek satire ever written
Wars existed from rocks/sticks to spears to evolution through time to atom bombs.Somebody's gonna be offended no matter what you do/say. Guns don't cause wars, any more than forks cause obesity.
I personally am offended by illiteracy. Please folks, invest in spellchecker or at least proofread your posts before sending. Your arguments are overwhelmed by your spelling.
As for the company's ad, Henry Repeating Arms, good for you for standing up for something you believe in.
(I know, don't end a sentence with a preposition.)
Whether I agree or disagree, let others know where you stand.
Political correctness be damned.
buckhunter, u have to agree he looks poised and ready to do so in less than .3 seconds though :P
And i in no way said guns cause war did i?? but religion, hell yeah! and i should have said fight wars sucsessfully! as for your nitpicking john boy, get a mate to help u pull that huge stick out your rear :P
Nice ad, Henry. lol
The Ad last night on Fox News Channel a Fella tossed everything out of his house that wasn't made in the U,S. and only item remaining was a Henry Rifle hanging over the fire place.
I love what they are doing!
This Ad reminds me of my Great Great Grandfather, not only he carried a bible in one hand and a six shooter in the other; he was a Baptist Minister and a Sheriff in Eastern Oklahoma!
inge:
I agree with you that religion (and nationalism, and personal ambition) have historically been the cause of wars, not the ways (rocks, guns, bombs) of fighting them.
Still, I appreciate a good argument, well stated.
The better stated, the better the argument.
All I see is a man enjoying the freedom of living in America.
Don't know if I would use the word, "clinging". More like relying.
The question is what real freedom is left?? if bibles and guns are the only freedoms left then i fear for the state of the whole world.. and religious people with guns are often adamant against free speech of others.. isnt that in the constitution too?? i have the right to think and say openly that i think all religious people are delutional and think that the voices they hear in theire head is the voice of an all-powerfull god persistantly unprovable by any science, but still real and someone that whacked out of theire mind shouldnt be allowed to have firearms and especially be blocked from holding any political powers over the rest of us.. or they will start another religious crusade to make theire conviction more real by eradicating the opposition..
"we won so our god is more powerfull!" thinking.
And im in my full right to speak my opinion about it, but then, if the majority of the human population share in this or similar delutions, then how can i expect people to really wake up and see what damage religion is doing in our world?? i cant can i?? not withouth wiping out religion permanently! and that means there isnt many people left here on earth.. dang it when is that rapture thingy gonna happen so all the nutters dissapear??:P
"and then there was peace all over, and it was good!"
Inge:
The individual freedom to keep and bear arms is our first, last, and best defense against tyranny, religious, political, or otherwise.
The freedom to believe and worship as we please, whatever the belief, is a part of the greatness of this country.
This includes your belief, that "religious" people are delusional. Fine, yes, you have that right.
Your belief in that is similar to other's belief in their faith and understanding.
But, you have no more the right to impose that on others, than they have to impose their beliefs on you.
Or for one or the other to call names or disparage.
Most likely I misread your first post, I see that you didn't say that guns "cause" wars, I apologize for reacting to that.
However, as the constant attacks from the anti's get more and more virulent, we have to stand up.
The next rifle I buy will be a Henry (to get back to the topic).
my "belif" in this is based on a branch of science called psycology, i dont have missionaries for it and try to convert others to my "belif", neither do i harass others that doesnt share it or introduce pseudoscienses in schools for it..
And me thinking they r all serious whackjobs, compared to what they say to people doing things against theire religious belifs, is comparably a term of endearment :)
but do get me right, im not anti guns at all, but for the sake of future arguments against the antis, keep the religious factor out of it like henry`s ad appartment should have done..
I have no problem with anyone else's beliefs until they start telling me that their beliefs are better than mine & how everyone should think just like them. This add is fine with me, but it would still be OK if it was a koran, a torah, or whatever the rastafarians call their bible--I'm not so easily offended.
ingebrigsten, We'll pray for you.
I don't believe Henry was trying to convert anyone, just reacting to someone else's attack (which I considered BHO's statement to be). Offensive to me, and many, maybe not to others.
I agree with Henry, I will "cling" to the things that are important to me.
Should you agree or disagree, base your buying decisions on your own base values.
As far as psychology being a 'science', good luck with that. You can't scientifically prove where the 'mind' is in the brain, anymore than the religious folks can prove where the 'soul' is.
As for me I believe there is a far superior intelligence or design at work that man has tried to (had to) define down as god (by whatever name)just to try to think we know what's going on, because we ain't none of us that smart, pro or con!
what gods there may be do not concern themselves with us, and thus would not seek to punish us either in this or any other life!
and psycology is more of a science than creationism ever will be :P and when we can create aI sucsessfully psycology will prove itself valid.. its a matter of time not faith:P
Consider this too, when alot of humans work together doesnt we as a whole have all the attributes of all gods known thus far?? both good and bad??all the gods potential for infinite evil or infinite good??:P
i do like a good discussion:D:D:D
Interesting inge:
I have to confess, my kids know texting, but I don't, so I don't know what :P or :D represent.
Help?
And I assume that aI meant artificial intelligence? So, if it's a matter of time until it's proven or replicated scientifically, are you not taking it as a matter of faith until that time?
Could I not say the same thing about proving the existence of god? We'll get it eventually?
Interestingly, I've argued your side of the argument before with evangelicals.
My argument is, we don't KNOW, we each BELIEVE, whichever side.
Ing,
I think you are leaning way into humanism, which is your right of course, and don't let me try to change your mind :P
I agree that there have been many a wacko crusade in the name of religion. But it has almost always been a religion that was misinterpreted or misrepresented- a human failure, not a flaw of the Devine. In my references to history, consider the forming of the American Nation and the reasons that many people came here: to escape tyrants that dictated the nature of worship. Take into consideration the Holocaust- if the Jews would have had the means and methods of defence, the story of the Jews during that time period would not read the same. There are a great many other examples that point to free people being armed people and unarmed people being persecuted for their beliefs: the Waldensians in the 12th to 14th century- the wole Reformation period really, and the French Revolution- when a nation denies God, bad things happen.
I read about the crusades, and the spanish inquisition, and am familiar with Jihad, and other extreme Islamic philosophy- all more reasons to be armed, really.
I ask you to refrain from making comments about the ignorance of others because you may disagree. I read history en masse.
Reliance solely on human virtue is a mistake. All things that have gone wrong in the human experience have been at the hands of man, and they outweigh the good that has been done by man. I have faith in a Living God, that allows the freedom of choice. I would not deny that freedom to anyone.
I would also defend my right to worship freely from any that would deny it to me. With any force necesary. If that makes me an insane religous fanatic, then so be it!
:P is smile-tounge in cheek :D is broad happy smiletilt head 90 degrees left) and we have already made AI sucsessfully on the lvl of insects etc.. so it might be considered faith too, but based on known facts and as far as im conserned religion has had thousand of years to come up with just 1 single known provable fact that gives any credibility to theire belifs and have thus far failed.. and im just giving myself a bit of mental exercise to deal politely with the two little old ladies from the jehovas witnesses that comes by once a month to save my soul and hand out pamphlets, nothing personal at all ;) (tilt head 90 degrees to the left and im sure u will get it):P
I wanted to include an e-mail I received the other day. It is not intended a fuel for the "religious fanatic fire"
But I believe it is an argument for why we should maintain our ability to defend our freedom of religion...even Henry style… because there are some very powerful and influential people who have resolved that they know better how to run my life than I do.
It bothers me, and makes me defensive. It should bother you too Ing, because it has the potential to interfere with the way you choose to not worship. Please read the following:
“Recently Obama went to Italy to meet for the G-8 summit. He also had a personal interview with the pope, and the pope presented him with a copy of the pope's latest encyclical. The pope prepared this just for this summit and for Obama. The folks at HOPE read it--it is called "Charity of Truth."
And HOPE believes this is a wake-up call... They have listed 10 points which the pope has made which seem to directly fulfill the ...understanding of Bible prophecy. Here are the points:
1. A Global Government. The pope is calling for a "true world political authority" to fix the problems that plague the world. (page 67)
2. Church and State. The pope says this new political authority will make its decisions based on spiritual values. (Chapter 5)
3. The Papacy at the Head. These spiritual values cannot be derived from just any religion, since not "all religions are equal." (p 55)
4. Religion, Politics, and the Economy. The church must influence all areas of society since God must have "a place in the public realm, specifically in regard to its cultural, social, economic, and particularly its political dimensions." (56)
5. Power to Enforce Law. This "political authority" must have "real teeth" and "be vested with the effective power" to enforce its laws around the world. (67)
6. Control Buying and Selling. The new world governing power will institute socialistic policies for government to redistribute wealth. (chapter 3)
7. Resurgency of Labor Unions. Labor Unions are to be empowered to "play a decisive role" in the new world order. (25)
8. The Church's Goal. Pope Benedict says that this encyclical is to help achieve "The goal of the history of the human family"--to build "the universal city of God .." (7)
9. Redefining Religious Liberty. While claiming not "to interfere in any way in the politicis of States," the pope redefines "liberty" as happening when the world obeys laws shaped by the Roman Church's spiritual values.
According to the pope, as the church influences states to enforce its view of "truth" on others, people are set "free." "This mission of truth is something that the Church can never renounce." (9)
10. Immortal Souls. The non-biblical belief that man has an immortal soul helps to insure the pope's global agenda. "Man is...God's creature, whom God chose to endow with an immortal soul." (29)
"The pope's views on the redistribution of wealth and his agenda set forth in Charity in Truth echo many of the same themes that Obama campaigned for last year. As a result, the White House was excited about the meeting as this insider describes:
"The encyclical ramped up the level of White House enthusiasm for this meeting because you can't read it without sensing that these two men are seeing economic questions the same way," says a Catholic adviser to the White House....The Holy Father's emphasis on putting the human person at the center of the economy strongly echoes themes that Obama campaigned on and is working to implement. (Dan Gilgoff, Obama's Most Important Catholic Adviser, U.S. / News & World Report, July 10, 2009).
well ranger2 it will if u defend yourself "preemtively", and that "With any force necesary" statement u already make me suspicious of u.:P and if u truly have a belif in god u might make yourself ignorant of the totality of existence and awareness. good and evil is a true human consept and i dont belive in it at all.. there is only beneficial or non-beneficial. and i think we humans are on a voyage through time to find our reason to exist, and if we didnt give ourself room to fail and make mistakes we really wouldnt have any reason to learn from our mistakes and thereby better ourselves..
And how come the one thing muslims, christians and jews can decisively agree on is that theire god is the same as all the others, then what the hell r they fighting over?? the interpretation??? whos religious leaders should be boss??
riddle me that ranger2 :P
I think there is and has been a plethora of worthwhile and scientific evidence in the favor of God. If you have the inclination to refute the validity of God/religion, study Biblical Prophecy and disprove it the same way that "Bible Thumpers" prove it. Do some reading from publications by the Christian Science Institute. Know the opposition... if you are of an open and reasonable mind, you may find things you have missed previously.
I dont have any problem with god or gods, but theire groundpersonell are whackjobs the lot of them:P and ranger2 if there comes a day when we fight the global goverment then u will find that we stand together against the oppression as comrades in arms, if for different personal reasons..
peace out im going for a s&s
hey i went to bible school as a kid and know "the opposition" very well of most religions.show me the one thing that proves god exists..
in the mean time ill show u this: if God is unable to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent
if God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good
if God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil?
:P
Defence is not preemptive by definition. I am one that would rather give up life for what I believe in than live a life of subservience in a state of existence that I disagree with. Peace is my first priority and I would go to great lengths to preserve it, but there is a limit.
Belife in God should not make one ignorant of the totality of existence, it should however allow one to accept the limitations of their own existence.
Good and evil and beneficial and non-beneficial are mostly semantics. Mistakes are emminent in the human experience, reffered to as sin in religous context. Yes we should learn from mistakes, but I am certain that the human race is incapable of ever achieving perfection because from birth, humans are selfish beings, thus the crux of the "mistakes". This time line you refer to is interesting to me, as we are only part of the continuum for the entirety of our life cycle, then we die, and the cycle for single beings ends. The human race in not an integrated organism that evolves on a philosophical or moral level. We are born, we spend a life time making mistakes and correcting them, and we die. Our offspring are sledom, if ever, any better off at birth than we were~ that cycle is basically undeniable, taken that there is no evidence to support that we have evolved into higher order beings over any time period. Particularly in recorded history, which is a smaller portion of history in total, yet is enough to refute evolution of the race.
A reasonable answer to your riddle is likely that they should not be fighting at all, but to agree that they disagree. The fighting comes from human intolerance, another "mistake". Each man should choose his own leader, and let others do the same, without injury one to another. The answer is simple, convincing people to quit making "mistakes" is another matter. That is why there is Faith, Grace, and ultimately, Salvation. Because we are incapable of our own beneficial solution.
In my opinion, it is called the Great Controversy. It is complicated to explain in breif, but the gist of it is that at a point in time, the universe was in complete harmony, with God ruling in a perfect manner that I am not going to pretend to understand, but believe in, regardless.
Sin and evil was not even a concept. Sin originated in selfish and jelous thoughts (Lucifer), as God created beings to be of free will- to that point there had been no question of God's perfection. Selfishness and pride caused a spiritual seperation from God, thus opened the door for the fruits of selfishness- pain and suffering and injustice. God does not condone or promote or revel in these things, but must allow humans to live of free will, lest He create a race of mindless minions.
After the fall of man, sin, pain and suffering is a process we must experience before we have the ability to choose an existence free of these circumstances, thus enters the plan of Salvation, a sacrifice to justify the penalty of seperation from God...in the stead of the perpetrators.
I know, it is not a complete description, I know, you have heard it all before...
But I believe, truly, that God does not allow suffering for the sake of its existence, but has a Master Plan to bring us out of it once and for all, by our acceptance of His Grace- in some way or another- I have my method of religious practice, it may not be the ONLY ONE way to go, but I prefer it.
The information is out there if one is inclined to seek it. It is a process oriented journey, as well as a product oriented process. I for one do not understand a good deal about the nature of God, but I am comfortable with my limitations, and that those things that I do not understand will make sense at some point-
God is willing and able to prevent evil, He is simply working on a time table that may not make sense to you or I until after we can look back on what happened to understand- instead of being frustrated by the present existence, which we do not understand.
It still comes down to freedom- to choose how we shall live, to choose God, or humanity, or frustration, but to choose. Henry is promoting the ability to choose- what you shoot and what you read and believe. They are right to do so.
Remember as G. Gordon Liddy said, "this country was founded by Christians with guns." Bravo Henry!
Diehl: what is a reilfes?
There were also many Jews with guns doing the same in all of the wars the us Fought. Lets not forget that salient fact.
I am a relative newcomer when it comes to guns I come from a family that did not own guns until I got into hunting, I am trying to determine where I stand on guns, and I am now all about gun rights it makes the most sense to me that if cops feel that the more guns the safer people will be, because criminals aren't looking for a gun fight. I on the other hand believe in God but I do not believe in all of the things that the Religious right stands for. So I have come up with the following... as long as they dont keep me from doing what I want to do I am all for it. Just do tell me what not to do... let me decide what to and not to do!!! We live in America in the land of the free, so let us be free... Freedom of religion, or what ever they believe, and let me own what ever gun I want and legally obtain.
hmm ranger2 first i heard a bit of blablah, then u said something to the effect that since we havent found the missing ink yet we couldnt possibly have elvolved from monkeys, then there was a whole lot of blahblahblah-mememe--blah blah!
seriously a shrink looking at the transcript from this would put a little mark in his questioneer where the word delutional is used for effect:P
nothing wrong with this ad. seems like a creative and current way to discuss the rights of americans.
The add was done in good taste. It was done as a statement and way of protest over rights being infringed upon. No one is denying that. Whatever your beliefs in God, Gods, Bibles etc. The Christian religion / Freedom of Religion is what this country was founded on among other fundamentals to include Free Speach, The Right to Keep and Bear Arms etc. All of these fundamentals are in jeapardy everyday: People (Extremist, Fanatics, Criminals etc)are also going to abuse these rights and use them to their advantage. The more the criminal elelments are allowed to do this no matter their religious beliefs are The more we the honest are going to lose.
Guns have played an important part in Americas history and American lives. They are a part of our lives directly or indirectly. You chose to own one or not. You chose how and when to use them. War is caused by man period not guns. Crime is committed by man not what he/she uses to commit them.
I'll leave you with these quotes:" Truth crushed to the earth is truth still and like a seed will rise again" Jefferson Davis
Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms.” James Madison
A free people ought to be armed.” George Washington
That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.” George Orwell
Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have.
Ronald Reagan
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
Ronald Reagan
The last quote I hope hits home the most!
Moishe:
Liddy was responding to a liberal complaint about how awful guns and religion were and that the Founding of the US was not really a product of those factors. Of course, the Jewish soldiers and sailors that died for the US gave their lives for the same reason that Gentiles did, in defense of our Liberty and Freedom. The European US cemeteries have many Stars of David alongside Christian Crosses. Shalom.
When I put on my political hat, I don't have a problem with this ad.
When I put on my religious hat, I get a little bit more concerned - I guess I am just too cynical to blindly accept the sincerity of this ad without any personal knowledge of the individuals involved. I can easily imagine this ad as being nothing more than the exploitation of religion for commercial benefit and that leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
I like the "Made in USA" commercial alot, I think it's a much better marketing tactic than the "Bible slinger". When money gets tight, I pray to God for help, and grab my rifle and go hunting, which sounds like 'clinging to religion and guns' to me, which I'm totally ok with. While politically contriversial, I actually think it was quite an accurate statement, and not really offensive in my opinion.
Ranger2,
Keep up the good work, you are winning the argument hands down. Some people refuse to see or learn from history. My dad calls it " being stupid on purpose".
So, Ing, what are you trying to say, that you disagree, or that you don't understand?
You can, however, feel perfectly free to keep your psycho-babble "science" to yourself. Of all the nut jobs out there, psychologists historically tend to climb high on the list. And self deception is a formidable delusion of its own kind.
I am not intent on making you or anyone else religious, but the Bla Bla Bla you refer to is part of the equation that you are simply choosing to ignore, you have not provided any evidence against it, you are just pouting and throwing the "I don't get it, so it must be crazy" card.
You have completely failed to provide any evidence for your brand of faith- no supporting details. Maybe you should start your own religion and call it ingebrigtsenism, and then you can be the sole, first hand source of the nonsense you have thrown here about how all religions and faiths are collectively insane. If you are not willing to crawl out of your mental shell and engage in the possibility that you might not actually be omnicient, then at least provide some evidence to those of us that fall into your self appointed "delusional" category.
On a seperate note, if you want to be considered as a study topic for the missing "ink" as you called it, by all means let me know what the conclusion is, because I would change my mind if there was any reasonable evidence against my current position.
oh did i piss u off calling your rantings blahblahblah??:D i asked u for 1 scientific piece of evidence to support the notion that there really is a god, and u come up with the missing link?? weak!!!! there are proven steps from human down, and for ape up, just the final link in the chain is missing, and psycology is admissable in court! just cos u wanna ignore its validity doesnt mean the state does too. luckily! if your rantings was a real equation then it could be put on paper with numbers and symbols and solved mathematically, and boy u have no f-ing chance for that:P but in the spirit of fredom to have any religious belif u want im not gonna take it further, just gonna add the definition on wiki for delusion:
A delusion, in everyday language, is a fixed belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception. Psychiatry defines the term more specifically as a belief that is pathological (the result of an illness or illness process). As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, apperception, illusion, or other effects of perception.
Delusions typically occur in the context of neurological or mental illness, although they are not tied to any particular disease and have been found to occur in the context of many pathological states (both physical and mental). However, they are of particular diagnostic importance in psychotic disorders and particularly in schizophrenia, paraphrenia, manic episodes of bipolar disorder, and psychotic depression.
;)
And maybe u r right, maybe i should do a "l.ron.hubbard" :D:D:D get some sucker followers to do my bidding and give me all theire stuff, then collect more stuff for me and get some celebrities in for good measure etc. i could do with more stuff:D:P;)
ingebrigtsen,
Try and talk with some class and education. No one here likes to read your swearing. If you can't talk without swearing it shows you don't have the education to get your point across with civilized vocabulary.
ingebrigtsen
You say that there is no proof in religion like there is in science. That however is why we call it faith and beleive it as that. There has to be no other proof other than our faith in it. I myself see proof, everyone sees things differently. You don't see the proof and that is okay. You choose not to beleive it that is fine, but don't call us crazy wackjobs because we do beleive it. I have never shoved my religion down anyones throat, and never will. You have the right to beleive what you will and so do I. Pursue whatever you want.
Ing,
Uh buddy, it sounds like you are the one who is upset.
I have provided you no less evidence that God does exist than you provided that He does not... actually, you refused to acknowledge the evidence because it is apparently too tedious for you to crack open the Good Book et al. and look... it seems canned answers from wiki are more your caliber.
Which is a shame because the Bible can provide for some seriously thought provoking reading, even if you do not believe in God. Many of the books of the Bible have been proven through archeological research to have great historical merit (even by non-religious entities, gasp!) There is also a lot of great advice, like not being greedy or selfish- See Philippians 2:4, "Each of you should look not only into your own interests, but also to the interests of others." NIV
You can take that as a challenge to read it more thoroughly.
What is with you and the missing link issue? That was not part of my commentary. It appears you brought that in all by yourself, to argue with yourself about it...(delusional, perhaps schizophrenic?.) Besides, the human genome project has already determined that our DNA is only .1% different among all humans, and the difference between man and ape is over 5% different- which I think sinks the argument... our DNA shares commonalities with essentially all living creatures, but macro evolution has not ever been observed in science. It sounds like you only have faith to go on, no proof. Certainly no more proof than I have for what I believe.
BTW, thanks for the re-read on the definition of delusional. It helped me realize why you are acting the way you are. And back to that idea that mankind is evolving into a more advanced state... you are really not helping to prove that either, in case you were wondering.
Good luck with the whole monkey-man/greedy/creepy cult psychology thing you have going for you. If you get to the end of life and feel lonely, empty, and unfulfilled- perhaps you will change your mind. At least you should not have to wonder for the cause of your disappointments.
I figure this horse has been beaten well past dead. I agree that we do not agree. If you wish to not accept that, then you will have to continue arguing by yourself. God Bless~
Thank you Ranger2 for pointing out the Pope's agenda for the planet. I speculate on the inevitable war between the Mormons and the Catholics (should each achieve it's goal of world hegemony).
Ruckwieler this country was founded by Masons with guns, the Christianity was incidental and certainly not any unifying factor (aside from their near universal intent to exclude Catholics). Remember within living memory of the founding of our nation Europe was racked by bloody religious wars. England itself was ravaged by the Civil War that made Cromwell Lord Protector and beheaded King Charles. How about Gustavus Adolfus spreading Lutheranism with Musket drill and "Leathern Guns".
Still I don't object to guns, swords, spears or other arms being used in spiritual rites, I just object to them being used to CONVERT people...
Bella, I always enjoy reading your posts, although seldom agree with them, but I must say your last one left me dumfounded. ??????
Inge, please write legibly, I've grown tired of trying to interpret u'r shorthand.
R U 14?
Inge,
"paraphrenia" isn't in either my large Webster's or my Stedman's Medical Dictionary.
What the hell are you talking about?
Methinks you have invented your own new delusion.
Enjoy.
Paraphrenia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Paraphrenia is a group of psychotic illnesses distinct from paranoia and from schizophrenia. In patients suffering from this type of psychosis, personality decay is minimal, and emotional rapport is well retained. The onset occurs around age 40.
Furthermore, paraphrenia is characterized by the preoccupation with one or more semisystematized delusions. These delusions are not encapsulated from the rest of the personality as in delusional disorder. The affect is notably well-preserved and appropriate, as is the ability to maintain rapport with others. There is no intellectual deterioration, no flat nor grossly inappropriate affect. Disturbance of behavior is understandable in relation to the content of the delusions. The illness is associated with distress and agitation. Irrational behaviour may appear as delusions become more vivid and judgment lessens. Patients may accuse others of persecution and complain to the authorities.
The predisposing factors in the onset of the disease are associated with severe stressors such as social isolation, migrant status and deafness.
This psychosis is thought to be caused by abnormalities in the tau protein. These abnormalities can occur when the protein becomes hyperphosphorylated. It has not been shown that the phosphoric acid prevalent in sodas can contribute to this.
And i know this is a struggle i could never win cos of the 3 criterias for a delusion:
certainty (held with absolute conviction)
incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)
:P
Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Inge,
Boy, that really clears it up!
You are either:
a) a brilliant comedian
or
b) way too smart for me.
Please don't try to clarify, I'm in pain right now.
I think that Henry's ad was a tongue in cheek response to one of the president's remarks during his campaign referring to disillusioned people clinging to guns and religion. I seriously doubt the ad was an attempt at proselyzing (sp?) for any particular religion; although a case could be made for Christianity since it was the bible in the holster.
Bella, I have to somewhat agree with you concerning all organized religions. If one studies history, it's not haed to see that the Catholic church became the defacto Roman Empire. Having said that, one shouldn't be too quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I consider myself a devout Christian, however I do not consider myself "religious". I am simply one of God's souls here on earth trying to make it as best I can. I need something more powerful than me that I can weigh myself against. It keeps my attitude in check, and my feet on the ground.
JohnR, well said...
Bella,
Though we share little regarding spiritual conviction or practice, I appreciated your last comment. I do not put my faith in organized religion, I identify well with JohnR, however.
I am also fully aware of the heinous maladies done to good folk in the name of "religion"(popular in Roman Catholicism; I have not had the same bad encounters with Mormons, but their theology is certainly not for me either).
Lord forbid any be "converted" by the sword, or Henry Rifle.
The greatest commandment: "...Love the Lord your God with all of your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind...And...Love your neighbor as yourself" Matt. 37-39 NIV
While far easier said than done, this would make a significant difference for the planet if people took it to heart.
I could write 3 or 4 paragraphs on this subject, but here's the bottom line. Henry Repeating Arms is a privately owned American company, and can say whatever the heck they want. It doesn't matter if it offends anyone. The basic freedoms that everyone is using on this very website and arguing about are the ones that Mr. Imperato was using. That's how that man feels about things and is willing to stand up for what he believes in, and courage enough not to care what other people think about him. And that my friends, is a quality that we should all admire. On the flip side, I'm going to steal a quote from one of Mr. Petzal's other entries: "Who gives a $#!+??"
JohnL, what part of my last post dumbfounded you? The bit about the country being a Masonic plot or the bit about the conflicting agendas of religious entities (if drawn out to their logical conclusions).
I am a fervent believer in The Gods, and while I recognize that "proof" for individual creeds or myth cycles may be solely subjective I do see scientific, anecdotal, and other evidence for Higher Powers. I have experienced or witnessed successful faith healing, firewalking, and Divine trance possession. I have seen and experienced contact with other spiritual planes, out of body experiences. I have done extensive study and meditative practice (as well as much prayer). I have come to the opinion that there is LOTS of evidence for proof of the existance of the Divine and No contradiction between the goals, rules and methods of Science and it's counterpart Religion. The problem I see is the evidence I have found just doesn't support
Evangelical Christianity or the means and goals it propounds. I suppose this makes me like everybody in that we all find "evidence" for that we wish to believe, rather than what is...
I find there is lots of evidence for...
Life after death,
Reincarnation,
Spiritual healing,
Gravity = Love,
Astrology and divination. The funny thing about divination, whether one is referring to Astrology, reading the Tarot or the IChing or reading thrown or burnt bones is every method devised by humans works! How often does a person flip a coin or draw lots to make a decision? That is divination, asking God(s) to choose on an issue, and most people do it without a thought as to the spiritual nature of the act of appealing to randomness or luck to favor them.
But most people are not interested in meeting God really..They'd rather get their God served up neat as meat on Sunday, all packaged and shrink wrapped, cut and dried. Unfortunately for that Big Corporate Church Ideal..of faith packaged in Sunday School lessons sent down from the Corporate Religious Mecca (or whatever) falls flat because God will not be so contained or defined or so Convenient as all that. However, despite the inevitable psychic trauma, I reccommend everyone attemp to meet God(dess) some time, rather than just muttering at God through the ether. God is more than warm fuzzies in the chest after a good sermon and once you get there you get a glimpse of the Big Picture and you get blown away by the experience. But you don't get to just join my religion...I say Joseph Smith had one good idea, all existing religions suck, so go meet God and found your own! I figure with 6 or 7 billion people on the planet that works out to 6 or 7 billion different religious faithways properly. In the end You will meet God(dess) and the experience will be unique to you, but it might not be quite what you expect. Why louse up your learning experience by staying on the package tour of life? You only Really learn about God, when you take the question on for yourself, without preconditions and go crying into your own wilderness to seek the Divine in You. For you have to look within, without you will never find what you seek.
thats the best ad i ever saw, im gonna by a henryy
I've got a Bible, and I've got a 6 shooter, I won't push either one on anybody. Don't try to take either one from me though! Good ad Henry, you've sure started bruhaha on this web-site though! LOL
right on 788ham! totally agree with u!!!
Post a Comment
"Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition."
I see nothing wrong with it and I'm sure with all the anti-big government sentiment floating around right now it'll help them sell a few sporting arms.
And isn't that the point?
I like a company being honest about their values AND I like Henry's values.
Some of the big corporations donate millions to causes that are bad for society and are wrecking our nation. If it wasn't for watchdog groups like the American Family Associaiton, we wouldn't be the wiser about where we throw down our hard earned cash.
As for the ad itself, I would have changed the composition a bit -- but not the concept.
The fact people feel others have to apologize for believing in god and the right to self defense just shows how off track America has gone....both are things our country was founded on....we need to get back to the basics and the constitution before it is to late.....The Socialist States of North America doesn't sound like a country this citizen would want any part of....I for one will put a Henry on my to buy list...been wanting a little 22lr lever gun anyways....
Just a company espousing their First and Second Amendment rights. I salute them and hope their campaign goes well.
I've little use for religions but their ad wouldn't stop me from buying one of their reilfes and does not offend me.
I love it, good for Henry repeating arms co.
I like the ad. It's simple and it says a lot.
Henry Arms is a made in USA company. Something they are very proud of and rightfully so. Going this direction with their ad campaign is no surprise.
This ad will only offend people who had problems before.
Good for them. I think it's an interesting concept.
Thank goodness for someone willing to stand up for our Bible and our 2nd amendment rights, especially at the same time. Well done, Henry!!
Gee, why would we cling to these things?...Oh, it's because they're the foremost freedoms this country affords us and was founded upon. I get it.
I generally don't like when companies use religion to sell their product, but this is OK by me. Mostly it's a reminder of our so-called leaders skewed view of us. +1 for Herny
they shouldn't apologize to anyone that this ad offends. It is our right to bear arms and speak as we so desire. It is also a persons right to be offended if they so choose to live a bitter and cantankerous life.
I like the add. If it offends people to bad. I don't see anything wrong with Henry speaking what they believe in.
Applause for Henry using it's head when coming up with this ad campaign. It should appeal to most Americans that religious freedom and the right to bear arms were two of the base rights that this country was founded upon.
After all the ads against guns and hunting that have been going around, it's high time somebody started pointing out what americans have done since they left england. Hunting has been a mainstay of providing food for a family for years, and we need to promote it better.
Inge:
The individual freedom to keep and bear arms is our first, last, and best defense against tyranny, religious, political, or otherwise.
The freedom to believe and worship as we please, whatever the belief, is a part of the greatness of this country.
This includes your belief, that "religious" people are delusional. Fine, yes, you have that right.
Your belief in that is similar to other's belief in their faith and understanding.
But, you have no more the right to impose that on others, than they have to impose their beliefs on you.
Or for one or the other to call names or disparage.
Most likely I misread your first post, I see that you didn't say that guns "cause" wars, I apologize for reacting to that.
However, as the constant attacks from the anti's get more and more virulent, we have to stand up.
The next rifle I buy will be a Henry (to get back to the topic).
Interesting inge:
I have to confess, my kids know texting, but I don't, so I don't know what :P or :D represent.
Help?
And I assume that aI meant artificial intelligence? So, if it's a matter of time until it's proven or replicated scientifically, are you not taking it as a matter of faith until that time?
Could I not say the same thing about proving the existence of god? We'll get it eventually?
Interestingly, I've argued your side of the argument before with evangelicals.
My argument is, we don't KNOW, we each BELIEVE, whichever side.
I dont have any problem with god or gods, but theire groundpersonell are whackjobs the lot of them:P and ranger2 if there comes a day when we fight the global goverment then u will find that we stand together against the oppression as comrades in arms, if for different personal reasons..
peace out im going for a s&s
I like the "Made in USA" commercial alot, I think it's a much better marketing tactic than the "Bible slinger". When money gets tight, I pray to God for help, and grab my rifle and go hunting, which sounds like 'clinging to religion and guns' to me, which I'm totally ok with. While politically contriversial, I actually think it was quite an accurate statement, and not really offensive in my opinion.
He had to reason to apologize. Seems Henry is the only firearms company I see advertising on regular (non-pay) TV any more.
I don't think there's anything offensive about this add at all. Even someone not into guns or religion would have to be pretty thin skinned to get worked up over this. It should be an effective add campaign. This reminds me--I need to find out why my Henry .22 mag is misfiring.
its about time somebody stood up for what they believe in, ESPECIALLY GOD...who cares whether or not theyre "politically correct."...their use of freedom is correct...no matter what they say
HENRY, HENRY, HENRY... Great marketing add. It draws attention and is provocative in nature. I applaud you.
The add is done in good taste and at the right time.
Hopefully Ammo manufacturers and other firearms manufacturers will follow suit. While not using the same add topic but just as provocative and thought out.
I really like this. Like people said they are exercising their 1st & 2nd amendment. Good for them!
Great ad, I can't find offense, and I do like Henry rifles. I think there will be a few requests for the custom holster.
My late father in law was a preacher. He kept two Bible cases in his car. One was loaded with The Word, the other was loaded with an H&K 9mm and four 18 round mags.
I never thought to conceal in a Bible case... pretty clever. I still have his H&K. It still lives in the Bible case. In my rig. Now I need to get a Henry and put it in a Bible case for my other rig.
A thought for ingebrigtsen:
At many points in time, there has been no freedom or tolerance of the practice of religion- many faiths included. It has been necessary to defend the right to worship according to the dictates of the conscience during many periods of history- recent and ancient. The founding of America’s first colonies should speak to that the loudest. Historically, Firearms have played a vital role in protecting the free exercise of religion, especially in the United States. On that premise, I disagree that the two subjects should be kept separate. You have alluded to the contemporary marketing scheme being dubiously clever, which has some merit, I agree. However, they are parallel freedoms, and to give up one or the other would mean losing both. Depending upon the sequence, you may risk to forfeit them simultaneously.
inge,
I understand what you are saying but the man in the photo is not thumping his bible or waving his gun.
To look at the ad at first glance it could be offensive
to some.I do agree that it is your right to keep and bare arms but I also believe that Henry could sell guns to good god fearing people without this ad.
This Ad reminds me of my Great Great Grandfather, not only he carried a bible in one hand and a six shooter in the other; he was a Baptist Minister and a Sheriff in Eastern Oklahoma!
inge:
I agree with you that religion (and nationalism, and personal ambition) have historically been the cause of wars, not the ways (rocks, guns, bombs) of fighting them.
Still, I appreciate a good argument, well stated.
The better stated, the better the argument.
All I see is a man enjoying the freedom of living in America.
Don't know if I would use the word, "clinging". More like relying.
Ing,
I think you are leaning way into humanism, which is your right of course, and don't let me try to change your mind :P
I agree that there have been many a wacko crusade in the name of religion. But it has almost always been a religion that was misinterpreted or misrepresented- a human failure, not a flaw of the Devine. In my references to history, consider the forming of the American Nation and the reasons that many people came here: to escape tyrants that dictated the nature of worship. Take into consideration the Holocaust- if the Jews would have had the means and methods of defence, the story of the Jews during that time period would not read the same. There are a great many other examples that point to free people being armed people and unarmed people being persecuted for their beliefs: the Waldensians in the 12th to 14th century- the wole Reformation period really, and the French Revolution- when a nation denies God, bad things happen.
I read about the crusades, and the spanish inquisition, and am familiar with Jihad, and other extreme Islamic philosophy- all more reasons to be armed, really.
I ask you to refrain from making comments about the ignorance of others because you may disagree. I read history en masse.
Reliance solely on human virtue is a mistake. All things that have gone wrong in the human experience have been at the hands of man, and they outweigh the good that has been done by man. I have faith in a Living God, that allows the freedom of choice. I would not deny that freedom to anyone.
I would also defend my right to worship freely from any that would deny it to me. With any force necesary. If that makes me an insane religous fanatic, then so be it!
:P is smile-tounge in cheek :D is broad happy smiletilt head 90 degrees left) and we have already made AI sucsessfully on the lvl of insects etc.. so it might be considered faith too, but based on known facts and as far as im conserned religion has had thousand of years to come up with just 1 single known provable fact that gives any credibility to theire belifs and have thus far failed.. and im just giving myself a bit of mental exercise to deal politely with the two little old ladies from the jehovas witnesses that comes by once a month to save my soul and hand out pamphlets, nothing personal at all ;) (tilt head 90 degrees to the left and im sure u will get it):P
I wanted to include an e-mail I received the other day. It is not intended a fuel for the "religious fanatic fire"
But I believe it is an argument for why we should maintain our ability to defend our freedom of religion...even Henry style… because there are some very powerful and influential people who have resolved that they know better how to run my life than I do.
It bothers me, and makes me defensive. It should bother you too Ing, because it has the potential to interfere with the way you choose to not worship. Please read the following:
“Recently Obama went to Italy to meet for the G-8 summit. He also had a personal interview with the pope, and the pope presented him with a copy of the pope's latest encyclical. The pope prepared this just for this summit and for Obama. The folks at HOPE read it--it is called "Charity of Truth."
And HOPE believes this is a wake-up call... They have listed 10 points which the pope has made which seem to directly fulfill the ...understanding of Bible prophecy. Here are the points:
1. A Global Government. The pope is calling for a "true world political authority" to fix the problems that plague the world. (page 67)
2. Church and State. The pope says this new political authority will make its decisions based on spiritual values. (Chapter 5)
3. The Papacy at the Head. These spiritual values cannot be derived from just any religion, since not "all religions are equal." (p 55)
4. Religion, Politics, and the Economy. The church must influence all areas of society since God must have "a place in the public realm, specifically in regard to its cultural, social, economic, and particularly its political dimensions." (56)
5. Power to Enforce Law. This "political authority" must have "real teeth" and "be vested with the effective power" to enforce its laws around the world. (67)
6. Control Buying and Selling. The new world governing power will institute socialistic policies for government to redistribute wealth. (chapter 3)
7. Resurgency of Labor Unions. Labor Unions are to be empowered to "play a decisive role" in the new world order. (25)
8. The Church's Goal. Pope Benedict says that this encyclical is to help achieve "The goal of the history of the human family"--to build "the universal city of God .." (7)
9. Redefining Religious Liberty. While claiming not "to interfere in any way in the politicis of States," the pope redefines "liberty" as happening when the world obeys laws shaped by the Roman Church's spiritual values.
According to the pope, as the church influences states to enforce its view of "truth" on others, people are set "free." "This mission of truth is something that the Church can never renounce." (9)
10. Immortal Souls. The non-biblical belief that man has an immortal soul helps to insure the pope's global agenda. "Man is...God's creature, whom God chose to endow with an immortal soul." (29)
"The pope's views on the redistribution of wealth and his agenda set forth in Charity in Truth echo many of the same themes that Obama campaigned for last year. As a result, the White House was excited about the meeting as this insider describes:
"The encyclical ramped up the level of White House enthusiasm for this meeting because you can't read it without sensing that these two men are seeing economic questions the same way," says a Catholic adviser to the White House....The Holy Father's emphasis on putting the human person at the center of the economy strongly echoes themes that Obama campaigned on and is working to implement. (Dan Gilgoff, Obama's Most Important Catholic Adviser, U.S. / News & World Report, July 10, 2009).
In my opinion, it is called the Great Controversy. It is complicated to explain in breif, but the gist of it is that at a point in time, the universe was in complete harmony, with God ruling in a perfect manner that I am not going to pretend to understand, but believe in, regardless.
Sin and evil was not even a concept. Sin originated in selfish and jelous thoughts (Lucifer), as God created beings to be of free will- to that point there had been no question of God's perfection. Selfishness and pride caused a spiritual seperation from God, thus opened the door for the fruits of selfishness- pain and suffering and injustice. God does not condone or promote or revel in these things, but must allow humans to live of free will, lest He create a race of mindless minions.
After the fall of man, sin, pain and suffering is a process we must experience before we have the ability to choose an existence free of these circumstances, thus enters the plan of Salvation, a sacrifice to justify the penalty of seperation from God...in the stead of the perpetrators.
I know, it is not a complete description, I know, you have heard it all before...
But I believe, truly, that God does not allow suffering for the sake of its existence, but has a Master Plan to bring us out of it once and for all, by our acceptance of His Grace- in some way or another- I have my method of religious practice, it may not be the ONLY ONE way to go, but I prefer it.
The information is out there if one is inclined to seek it. It is a process oriented journey, as well as a product oriented process. I for one do not understand a good deal about the nature of God, but I am comfortable with my limitations, and that those things that I do not understand will make sense at some point-
God is willing and able to prevent evil, He is simply working on a time table that may not make sense to you or I until after we can look back on what happened to understand- instead of being frustrated by the present existence, which we do not understand.
It still comes down to freedom- to choose how we shall live, to choose God, or humanity, or frustration, but to choose. Henry is promoting the ability to choose- what you shoot and what you read and believe. They are right to do so.
Remember as G. Gordon Liddy said, "this country was founded by Christians with guns." Bravo Henry!
Diehl: what is a reilfes?
There were also many Jews with guns doing the same in all of the wars the us Fought. Lets not forget that salient fact.
I am a relative newcomer when it comes to guns I come from a family that did not own guns until I got into hunting, I am trying to determine where I stand on guns, and I am now all about gun rights it makes the most sense to me that if cops feel that the more guns the safer people will be, because criminals aren't looking for a gun fight. I on the other hand believe in God but I do not believe in all of the things that the Religious right stands for. So I have come up with the following... as long as they dont keep me from doing what I want to do I am all for it. Just do tell me what not to do... let me decide what to and not to do!!! We live in America in the land of the free, so let us be free... Freedom of religion, or what ever they believe, and let me own what ever gun I want and legally obtain.
Thank you Ranger2 for pointing out the Pope's agenda for the planet. I speculate on the inevitable war between the Mormons and the Catholics (should each achieve it's goal of world hegemony).
Ruckwieler this country was founded by Masons with guns, the Christianity was incidental and certainly not any unifying factor (aside from their near universal intent to exclude Catholics). Remember within living memory of the founding of our nation Europe was racked by bloody religious wars. England itself was ravaged by the Civil War that made Cromwell Lord Protector and beheaded King Charles. How about Gustavus Adolfus spreading Lutheranism with Musket drill and "Leathern Guns".
Still I don't object to guns, swords, spears or other arms being used in spiritual rites, I just object to them being used to CONVERT people...
I like the add, and also respect ones belief in god and the right to bear arms. I personally hold my belief of god in my heart. Seeings as I don't "Thump the Bible" I'd fill the empty holster with another six gun!
Sorry, should have read "... no reason to apologize." Sportsmen have been doing that much too much lately.
hell yeah
Thats great.
"Guns are what make us able to fight wars" is either
A)the stupidest statement ever made, or
B)the best tongue-in-cheek satire ever written
Wars existed from rocks/sticks to spears to evolution through time to atom bombs.Somebody's gonna be offended no matter what you do/say. Guns don't cause wars, any more than forks cause obesity.
I personally am offended by illiteracy. Please folks, invest in spellchecker or at least proofread your posts before sending. Your arguments are overwhelmed by your spelling.
As for the company's ad, Henry Repeating Arms, good for you for standing up for something you believe in.
(I know, don't end a sentence with a preposition.)
Whether I agree or disagree, let others know where you stand.
Political correctness be damned.
buckhunter, u have to agree he looks poised and ready to do so in less than .3 seconds though :P
Nice ad, Henry. lol
The Ad last night on Fox News Channel a Fella tossed everything out of his house that wasn't made in the U,S. and only item remaining was a Henry Rifle hanging over the fire place.
I love what they are doing!
I have no problem with anyone else's beliefs until they start telling me that their beliefs are better than mine & how everyone should think just like them. This add is fine with me, but it would still be OK if it was a koran, a torah, or whatever the rastafarians call their bible--I'm not so easily offended.
ingebrigsten, We'll pray for you.
I don't believe Henry was trying to convert anyone, just reacting to someone else's attack (which I considered BHO's statement to be). Offensive to me, and many, maybe not to others.
I agree with Henry, I will "cling" to the things that are important to me.
Should you agree or disagree, base your buying decisions on your own base values.
As far as psychology being a 'science', good luck with that. You can't scientifically prove where the 'mind' is in the brain, anymore than the religious folks can prove where the 'soul' is.
As for me I believe there is a far superior intelligence or design at work that man has tried to (had to) define down as god (by whatever name)just to try to think we know what's going on, because we ain't none of us that smart, pro or con!
well ranger2 it will if u defend yourself "preemtively", and that "With any force necesary" statement u already make me suspicious of u.:P and if u truly have a belif in god u might make yourself ignorant of the totality of existence and awareness. good and evil is a true human consept and i dont belive in it at all.. there is only beneficial or non-beneficial. and i think we humans are on a voyage through time to find our reason to exist, and if we didnt give ourself room to fail and make mistakes we really wouldnt have any reason to learn from our mistakes and thereby better ourselves..
And how come the one thing muslims, christians and jews can decisively agree on is that theire god is the same as all the others, then what the hell r they fighting over?? the interpretation??? whos religious leaders should be boss??
riddle me that ranger2 :P
I think there is and has been a plethora of worthwhile and scientific evidence in the favor of God. If you have the inclination to refute the validity of God/religion, study Biblical Prophecy and disprove it the same way that "Bible Thumpers" prove it. Do some reading from publications by the Christian Science Institute. Know the opposition... if you are of an open and reasonable mind, you may find things you have missed previously.
Defence is not preemptive by definition. I am one that would rather give up life for what I believe in than live a life of subservience in a state of existence that I disagree with. Peace is my first priority and I would go to great lengths to preserve it, but there is a limit.
Belife in God should not make one ignorant of the totality of existence, it should however allow one to accept the limitations of their own existence.
Good and evil and beneficial and non-beneficial are mostly semantics. Mistakes are emminent in the human experience, reffered to as sin in religous context. Yes we should learn from mistakes, but I am certain that the human race is incapable of ever achieving perfection because from birth, humans are selfish beings, thus the crux of the "mistakes". This time line you refer to is interesting to me, as we are only part of the continuum for the entirety of our life cycle, then we die, and the cycle for single beings ends. The human race in not an integrated organism that evolves on a philosophical or moral level. We are born, we spend a life time making mistakes and correcting them, and we die. Our offspring are sledom, if ever, any better off at birth than we were~ that cycle is basically undeniable, taken that there is no evidence to support that we have evolved into higher order beings over any time period. Particularly in recorded history, which is a smaller portion of history in total, yet is enough to refute evolution of the race.
A reasonable answer to your riddle is likely that they should not be fighting at all, but to agree that they disagree. The fighting comes from human intolerance, another "mistake". Each man should choose his own leader, and let others do the same, without injury one to another. The answer is simple, convincing people to quit making "mistakes" is another matter. That is why there is Faith, Grace, and ultimately, Salvation. Because we are incapable of our own beneficial solution.
hmm ranger2 first i heard a bit of blablah, then u said something to the effect that since we havent found the missing ink yet we couldnt possibly have elvolved from monkeys, then there was a whole lot of blahblahblah-mememe--blah blah!
seriously a shrink looking at the transcript from this would put a little mark in his questioneer where the word delutional is used for effect:P
The add was done in good taste. It was done as a statement and way of protest over rights being infringed upon. No one is denying that. Whatever your beliefs in God, Gods, Bibles etc. The Christian religion / Freedom of Religion is what this country was founded on among other fundamentals to include Free Speach, The Right to Keep and Bear Arms etc. All of these fundamentals are in jeapardy everyday: People (Extremist, Fanatics, Criminals etc)are also going to abuse these rights and use them to their advantage. The more the criminal elelments are allowed to do this no matter their religious beliefs are The more we the honest are going to lose.
Guns have played an important part in Americas history and American lives. They are a part of our lives directly or indirectly. You chose to own one or not. You chose how and when to use them. War is caused by man period not guns. Crime is committed by man not what he/she uses to commit them.
I'll leave you with these quotes:" Truth crushed to the earth is truth still and like a seed will rise again" Jefferson Davis
Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms.” James Madison
A free people ought to be armed.” George Washington
That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.” George Orwell
Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have.
Ronald Reagan
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
Ronald Reagan
The last quote I hope hits home the most!
When I put on my political hat, I don't have a problem with this ad.
When I put on my religious hat, I get a little bit more concerned - I guess I am just too cynical to blindly accept the sincerity of this ad without any personal knowledge of the individuals involved. I can easily imagine this ad as being nothing more than the exploitation of religion for commercial benefit and that leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
oh did i piss u off calling your rantings blahblahblah??:D i asked u for 1 scientific piece of evidence to support the notion that there really is a god, and u come up with the missing link?? weak!!!! there are proven steps from human down, and for ape up, just the final link in the chain is missing, and psycology is admissable in court! just cos u wanna ignore its validity doesnt mean the state does too. luckily! if your rantings was a real equation then it could be put on paper with numbers and symbols and solved mathematically, and boy u have no f-ing chance for that:P but in the spirit of fredom to have any religious belif u want im not gonna take it further, just gonna add the definition on wiki for delusion:
A delusion, in everyday language, is a fixed belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception. Psychiatry defines the term more specifically as a belief that is pathological (the result of an illness or illness process). As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, apperception, illusion, or other effects of perception.
Delusions typically occur in the context of neurological or mental illness, although they are not tied to any particular disease and have been found to occur in the context of many pathological states (both physical and mental). However, they are of particular diagnostic importance in psychotic disorders and particularly in schizophrenia, paraphrenia, manic episodes of bipolar disorder, and psychotic depression.
;)
I think that Henry's ad was a tongue in cheek response to one of the president's remarks during his campaign referring to disillusioned people clinging to guns and religion. I seriously doubt the ad was an attempt at proselyzing (sp?) for any particular religion; although a case could be made for Christianity since it was the bible in the holster.
Bella, I have to somewhat agree with you concerning all organized religions. If one studies history, it's not haed to see that the Catholic church became the defacto Roman Empire. Having said that, one shouldn't be too quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I consider myself a devout Christian, however I do not consider myself "religious". I am simply one of God's souls here on earth trying to make it as best I can. I need something more powerful than me that I can weigh myself against. It keeps my attitude in check, and my feet on the ground.
I could write 3 or 4 paragraphs on this subject, but here's the bottom line. Henry Repeating Arms is a privately owned American company, and can say whatever the heck they want. It doesn't matter if it offends anyone. The basic freedoms that everyone is using on this very website and arguing about are the ones that Mr. Imperato was using. That's how that man feels about things and is willing to stand up for what he believes in, and courage enough not to care what other people think about him. And that my friends, is a quality that we should all admire. On the flip side, I'm going to steal a quote from one of Mr. Petzal's other entries: "Who gives a $#!+??"
my "belif" in this is based on a branch of science called psycology, i dont have missionaries for it and try to convert others to my "belif", neither do i harass others that doesnt share it or introduce pseudoscienses in schools for it..
And me thinking they r all serious whackjobs, compared to what they say to people doing things against theire religious belifs, is comparably a term of endearment :)
but do get me right, im not anti guns at all, but for the sake of future arguments against the antis, keep the religious factor out of it like henry`s ad appartment should have done..
hey i went to bible school as a kid and know "the opposition" very well of most religions.show me the one thing that proves god exists..
in the mean time ill show u this: if God is unable to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent
if God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good
if God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil?
:P
nothing wrong with this ad. seems like a creative and current way to discuss the rights of americans.
Moishe:
Liddy was responding to a liberal complaint about how awful guns and religion were and that the Founding of the US was not really a product of those factors. Of course, the Jewish soldiers and sailors that died for the US gave their lives for the same reason that Gentiles did, in defense of our Liberty and Freedom. The European US cemeteries have many Stars of David alongside Christian Crosses. Shalom.
So, Ing, what are you trying to say, that you disagree, or that you don't understand?
You can, however, feel perfectly free to keep your psycho-babble "science" to yourself. Of all the nut jobs out there, psychologists historically tend to climb high on the list. And self deception is a formidable delusion of its own kind.
I am not intent on making you or anyone else religious, but the Bla Bla Bla you refer to is part of the equation that you are simply choosing to ignore, you have not provided any evidence against it, you are just pouting and throwing the "I don't get it, so it must be crazy" card.
You have completely failed to provide any evidence for your brand of faith- no supporting details. Maybe you should start your own religion and call it ingebrigtsenism, and then you can be the sole, first hand source of the nonsense you have thrown here about how all religions and faiths are collectively insane. If you are not willing to crawl out of your mental shell and engage in the possibility that you might not actually be omnicient, then at least provide some evidence to those of us that fall into your self appointed "delusional" category.
On a seperate note, if you want to be considered as a study topic for the missing "ink" as you called it, by all means let me know what the conclusion is, because I would change my mind if there was any reasonable evidence against my current position.
And maybe u r right, maybe i should do a "l.ron.hubbard" :D:D:D get some sucker followers to do my bidding and give me all theire stuff, then collect more stuff for me and get some celebrities in for good measure etc. i could do with more stuff:D:P;)
ingebrigtsen,
Try and talk with some class and education. No one here likes to read your swearing. If you can't talk without swearing it shows you don't have the education to get your point across with civilized vocabulary.
ingebrigtsen
You say that there is no proof in religion like there is in science. That however is why we call it faith and beleive it as that. There has to be no other proof other than our faith in it. I myself see proof, everyone sees things differently. You don't see the proof and that is okay. You choose not to beleive it that is fine, but don't call us crazy wackjobs because we do beleive it. I have never shoved my religion down anyones throat, and never will. You have the right to beleive what you will and so do I. Pursue whatever you want.
Ing,
Uh buddy, it sounds like you are the one who is upset.
I have provided you no less evidence that God does exist than you provided that He does not... actually, you refused to acknowledge the evidence because it is apparently too tedious for you to crack open the Good Book et al. and look... it seems canned answers from wiki are more your caliber.
Which is a shame because the Bible can provide for some seriously thought provoking reading, even if you do not believe in God. Many of the books of the Bible have been proven through archeological research to have great historical merit (even by non-religious entities, gasp!) There is also a lot of great advice, like not being greedy or selfish- See Philippians 2:4, "Each of you should look not only into your own interests, but also to the interests of others." NIV
You can take that as a challenge to read it more thoroughly.
What is with you and the missing link issue? That was not part of my commentary. It appears you brought that in all by yourself, to argue with yourself about it...(delusional, perhaps schizophrenic?.) Besides, the human genome project has already determined that our DNA is only .1% different among all humans, and the difference between man and ape is over 5% different- which I think sinks the argument... our DNA shares commonalities with essentially all living creatures, but macro evolution has not ever been observed in science. It sounds like you only have faith to go on, no proof. Certainly no more proof than I have for what I believe.
BTW, thanks for the re-read on the definition of delusional. It helped me realize why you are acting the way you are. And back to that idea that mankind is evolving into a more advanced state... you are really not helping to prove that either, in case you were wondering.
Good luck with the whole monkey-man/greedy/creepy cult psychology thing you have going for you. If you get to the end of life and feel lonely, empty, and unfulfilled- perhaps you will change your mind. At least you should not have to wonder for the cause of your disappointments.
I figure this horse has been beaten well past dead. I agree that we do not agree. If you wish to not accept that, then you will have to continue arguing by yourself. God Bless~
Bella, I always enjoy reading your posts, although seldom agree with them, but I must say your last one left me dumfounded. ??????
Inge, please write legibly, I've grown tired of trying to interpret u'r shorthand.
R U 14?
Paraphrenia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Paraphrenia is a group of psychotic illnesses distinct from paranoia and from schizophrenia. In patients suffering from this type of psychosis, personality decay is minimal, and emotional rapport is well retained. The onset occurs around age 40.
Furthermore, paraphrenia is characterized by the preoccupation with one or more semisystematized delusions. These delusions are not encapsulated from the rest of the personality as in delusional disorder. The affect is notably well-preserved and appropriate, as is the ability to maintain rapport with others. There is no intellectual deterioration, no flat nor grossly inappropriate affect. Disturbance of behavior is understandable in relation to the content of the delusions. The illness is associated with distress and agitation. Irrational behaviour may appear as delusions become more vivid and judgment lessens. Patients may accuse others of persecution and complain to the authorities.
The predisposing factors in the onset of the disease are associated with severe stressors such as social isolation, migrant status and deafness.
This psychosis is thought to be caused by abnormalities in the tau protein. These abnormalities can occur when the protein becomes hyperphosphorylated. It has not been shown that the phosphoric acid prevalent in sodas can contribute to this.
And i know this is a struggle i could never win cos of the 3 criterias for a delusion:
certainty (held with absolute conviction)
incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)
:P
Inge,
Boy, that really clears it up!
You are either:
a) a brilliant comedian
or
b) way too smart for me.
Please don't try to clarify, I'm in pain right now.
I've got a Bible, and I've got a 6 shooter, I won't push either one on anybody. Don't try to take either one from me though! Good ad Henry, you've sure started bruhaha on this web-site though! LOL
right on 788ham! totally agree with u!!!
Ranger2,
Keep up the good work, you are winning the argument hands down. Some people refuse to see or learn from history. My dad calls it " being stupid on purpose".
Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
JohnR, well said...
Bella,
Though we share little regarding spiritual conviction or practice, I appreciated your last comment. I do not put my faith in organized religion, I identify well with JohnR, however.
I am also fully aware of the heinous maladies done to good folk in the name of "religion"(popular in Roman Catholicism; I have not had the same bad encounters with Mormons, but their theology is certainly not for me either).
Lord forbid any be "converted" by the sword, or Henry Rifle.
The greatest commandment: "...Love the Lord your God with all of your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind...And...Love your neighbor as yourself" Matt. 37-39 NIV
While far easier said than done, this would make a significant difference for the planet if people took it to heart.
thats the best ad i ever saw, im gonna by a henryy
And i in no way said guns cause war did i?? but religion, hell yeah! and i should have said fight wars sucsessfully! as for your nitpicking john boy, get a mate to help u pull that huge stick out your rear :P
The question is what real freedom is left?? if bibles and guns are the only freedoms left then i fear for the state of the whole world.. and religious people with guns are often adamant against free speech of others.. isnt that in the constitution too?? i have the right to think and say openly that i think all religious people are delutional and think that the voices they hear in theire head is the voice of an all-powerfull god persistantly unprovable by any science, but still real and someone that whacked out of theire mind shouldnt be allowed to have firearms and especially be blocked from holding any political powers over the rest of us.. or they will start another religious crusade to make theire conviction more real by eradicating the opposition..
"we won so our god is more powerfull!" thinking.
And im in my full right to speak my opinion about it, but then, if the majority of the human population share in this or similar delutions, then how can i expect people to really wake up and see what damage religion is doing in our world?? i cant can i?? not withouth wiping out religion permanently! and that means there isnt many people left here on earth.. dang it when is that rapture thingy gonna happen so all the nutters dissapear??:P
"and then there was peace all over, and it was good!"
what gods there may be do not concern themselves with us, and thus would not seek to punish us either in this or any other life!
and psycology is more of a science than creationism ever will be :P and when we can create aI sucsessfully psycology will prove itself valid.. its a matter of time not faith:P
Consider this too, when alot of humans work together doesnt we as a whole have all the attributes of all gods known thus far?? both good and bad??all the gods potential for infinite evil or infinite good??:P
i do like a good discussion:D:D:D
Inge,
"paraphrenia" isn't in either my large Webster's or my Stedman's Medical Dictionary.
What the hell are you talking about?
Methinks you have invented your own new delusion.
Enjoy.
This Ad gives some conflicting messages. The first is kind of a visual oxymoron, If Jesus was the "Prince of Peace" would he approve of selling killing tools with his words? Well It is all right to cling to your guns and faith, this image reminds me of the millions "persuaded" top become Christian at gun or swords point. Christianity ordained so many of these "join or die" forced conversions, that many unenlightened folks think it is right and good to force people to change their religious affiliation (or die now). This Ad reminds me of how while I will always think well on the teachings of the Great Rabbi Yeshua, how little those teachings resemble what passes for "Xtianity" today.
Henry makes some good rifles, yes, but these fundie sentiments don't make me want to spend any money with 'em. I have met too many people who use the Bible to justify their bad behavior, and the unwritten script to the image strongly suggests religiously inspired violence. Reread the Book Henry! I suggest your corporate interpretation of scripture needs revision!
JohnL, what part of my last post dumbfounded you? The bit about the country being a Masonic plot or the bit about the conflicting agendas of religious entities (if drawn out to their logical conclusions).
I am a fervent believer in The Gods, and while I recognize that "proof" for individual creeds or myth cycles may be solely subjective I do see scientific, anecdotal, and other evidence for Higher Powers. I have experienced or witnessed successful faith healing, firewalking, and Divine trance possession. I have seen and experienced contact with other spiritual planes, out of body experiences. I have done extensive study and meditative practice (as well as much prayer). I have come to the opinion that there is LOTS of evidence for proof of the existance of the Divine and No contradiction between the goals, rules and methods of Science and it's counterpart Religion. The problem I see is the evidence I have found just doesn't support
Evangelical Christianity or the means and goals it propounds. I suppose this makes me like everybody in that we all find "evidence" for that we wish to believe, rather than what is...
I find there is lots of evidence for...
Life after death,
Reincarnation,
Spiritual healing,
Gravity = Love,
Astrology and divination. The funny thing about divination, whether one is referring to Astrology, reading the Tarot or the IChing or reading thrown or burnt bones is every method devised by humans works! How often does a person flip a coin or draw lots to make a decision? That is divination, asking God(s) to choose on an issue, and most people do it without a thought as to the spiritual nature of the act of appealing to randomness or luck to favor them.
But most people are not interested in meeting God really..They'd rather get their God served up neat as meat on Sunday, all packaged and shrink wrapped, cut and dried. Unfortunately for that Big Corporate Church Ideal..of faith packaged in Sunday School lessons sent down from the Corporate Religious Mecca (or whatever) falls flat because God will not be so contained or defined or so Convenient as all that. However, despite the inevitable psychic trauma, I reccommend everyone attemp to meet God(dess) some time, rather than just muttering at God through the ether. God is more than warm fuzzies in the chest after a good sermon and once you get there you get a glimpse of the Big Picture and you get blown away by the experience. But you don't get to just join my religion...I say Joseph Smith had one good idea, all existing religions suck, so go meet God and found your own! I figure with 6 or 7 billion people on the planet that works out to 6 or 7 billion different religious faithways properly. In the end You will meet God(dess) and the experience will be unique to you, but it might not be quite what you expect. Why louse up your learning experience by staying on the package tour of life? You only Really learn about God, when you take the question on for yourself, without preconditions and go crying into your own wilderness to seek the Divine in You. For you have to look within, without you will never find what you seek.
Someone thumping bibles or korans and waving theire guns around at the same time scares the crap out of me no matter what u say.. i dont mind people having a personal relationship with theire respective gods. but when theire so delutional that they think they need to point guns at anyone around them to "defend" theire religion there is something very very wrong with them.. and its the same people that often think they have a right to kill non-belivers given by god- meaning religious extremists yet again starting most of the wars the last couple of thousand years..
History, its fascinating ranger2, try reading some :P
Guns are what make us able to fight wars, and for a guncompany to draw the religious card at precent seems specualtive to me, since thats exactly what the muslims are doing, and we really dont wanna play THEIRE game in this.. but henry isnt supplying warfare guns so theire kind of exemped from all that hoey, but still, someone in theire ad-department was probably thinking, hey lets make some extra cash selling guns to religious freaks.. and i dont care if theire christian,muslim ,jews or any other religion, religion and guns should be kept appart, history has shown us that, just like religion and goverment should be kept appart.. just get me right in this i like henry firearms and would like to have a 22 mag bolt singleshot with a custom laminate stock that was takedown in the pistolgrip as my "fit inside my backpack survival gun" but dont mix in religion even if its constitutional.. its like letting the big buck u cant get a surefire shot on go till the next time, cos u r a moral being.. theire firearms speak for themselves, this ad was unnessesary..
peace
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