One of the tests that you can use to determine whether or not you are a Colonized Land is whether or not foreigners come into you land, extract the natural resources there for fractions of a penny per dollar value, claim that the handful of jobs they create are uplifting to the natives, scot off with the material to be refined in some other nation, and leave the locals with a toxic mess. Suddenly we are all Bhopal-ese.

The question is whether or not AMERICANs, especially the hysterical harpies of unfettered macroeconomics, will finally rediscover their loyalty to AMERICA, or will continue to insist that three foreign-owned companies (BP, HQd in the UK, Hallburton, HQ'd in Dubai, and Transocean, HQd in Switzerland) "of course" could be counted on to responsibly balance profits with safety.

They can't. They never could. But the litany of excuses for foreign extraction of American resources will continue apace.

I'm still waiting for you all to contact the Save the Scenic Santa Ritas, Bob. Yeah, I know the oil disaster is tres chic. But it's been covered wall-to-wall here and everywhere. There is another disaster shaping up in Southern Arizona. A Canadian owned firm intends to destroy three large canyones in the Santa Ritas by filling them up with toxic tailings from an open pit mine. See ya, quail and deer and doves. They're also going to use a hellish amount of water, and leave behind a large open pit, full of acids and toxic metals left behind from an acid-extraction of sulfate ores process.

The hard rock ore will be shipped RAW to China to create Chinese smelting jobs.

And because the mine itself is on private land, there won't even by any paltry royalty checks to the American taxpayer for the destruction of the Federal lands involved.

The local USFS manager appears to be an extraction industry stooge. Her first statement was that the USFS is a "shall issue" agency with respect to permitting. That despite the fact that Federal law stipulates that "No Action" (meaning, No Permit) is one allowable outcome of the review process.

So please, take your eyes off the oil for a while and look around. The same bullcrap errors are to be repeated while everyone wrings their hands over the oil spill. But if you'll put the spotlight on the Rosemont Mine for a little while, there's still a chance that the allegedly environmentally-friendly admin will notice wtf is happening here.

A couple of issues that aren't getting enough, if any notice in the coverage of the BP disaster: One, there is a long list of tests and precautions that oil companies are required to follow when drilling offshore. BP skipped some of these tests and ignored the results of others that indicated this particular well needed extra precautions that were not taken. Follow the correct procedure and this disaster probably doesn't happen.
Two, more than one engineer that works in the gulf and has some expertise that could apply to this situation has said from the outset that BP did not bring in anywhere close to the best and the brightest to work on getting this under control, nor would they listen to those who have tried to tell them why their failed attempts had no chance at success and why before they were tried. We all realize that there was manual for what to do when this happened, but I think in the end BP will be exposed as having tried to manage it from a PR perspective as opposed to getting it under control. So far everything they have done has increased the flow exponentially.

A few years back, there was a movement to drill for oil in ANWR. Public opinion, including many F&S readers, were overwhelmingly opposed to this endeavor. Congress barred this activity. With this sentiment, we told those people in the Gulf Region, that potential threats to those caribou were much more important than the economy and welfare of the Gulf Region.
We can blame BP all we want. Had they not drilled there, someone else would've. If you want to blame someone, look into a mirror. Everytime we stop and fill up, we support the oil companies. Either we support Gulf drilling, or we support a sawwed off tyrant in Iran, or maybe Hugo Chavez.
The cold hard fact is: OIL IS A NECESSITY! Our economy depends on oil. Ye, we can conserve. Yes, there are alternatives. No, we can't power our vehicles with wind or solar.
BTW, I heard that someone was selected to help solve this problem, but he was a homophobe, so they fired him.
Mike Diehl: Is there a public comment period on that mine? That's normal procedure for anything on USFS or BLM lands.

MikeDiel-"... counted on to responsibly balance profits with safety." This says a lot. We are allowing corporations to run away with too little oversight. Corporations continue to prove that without someone watching they will behave irresponsibly-our mortgage crisis is a great example-it almost crushed the world economy and my retirement with it, as is this oil spill. Canada requires a back-up well be drilled with a primary so that if something goes wrong it can be dealt with quickly, and Norway requires acoustic sensors for oil platforms as an additional safety device, yet we in America require none of these things? Leaving responsibility completely up to the corporations does not seem to be working.
Dcast-I believe that BP did not want this to happen. I believe that BP wanted to extract oil as cheaply as possible. Environmentalist nazi's responsible for forcing drilling a mile deep? This I don't believe. Isn't it because all the oil closer in has been tapped? Also, as hunters and fishermen/women aren't we all environmentalists? I agree with you that talking about politics, religion and child rearing should be avoided if possible, but when one of these topics costs us something, then we feel obligated to chime in.

I don't believe any of these comments reflect an understanding of any of the facts involved. No doubt this is a catastrophe. BP is struggling to do everything it can to stop it and to take responsability including not sparing any cost and in bringing together the best engineers and scientists available. Much of the succes of fishing in the gulf of mexico is due to the oil platforms that act as artificial reefs and are the cause of hundreds of new species being there. The effects of this spill will be only a memory in a year or two. A bunch of selfish sportsman regurgitating the sensationalism fostered by the media isn't helping any.

Gulf of Mexico fishing was outstanding long before there were oceanic oil rigs. Chaz, you don't seem to know much about the subject. It's already emerged in testimony that no one at Transocean or BP checked the battery charges on the blowout preventer (which is one reason why it failed) and it has emerged that basic procedures may not have been followed, causing a chain of events that led to the explosion... all to save a few bucks and get the drilling rig on its way to a new location.

And BP has INDEED spared all manner of expenses and dragged its feet in dealing with the situation. BP didn't even start a relief well for several weeks after the blowout. In other countries you can't even start your primary well until you've already completed the relief well.

Bottom line is that this blowout was foreseeable, and preventable, and it sure looks like at every turn BP cut corners on safety to reduce cost.

So *screw* BP. Don't let them drill in American waters ever again. Don't let ANY non-American-HQd firm ever extract ANY mineral assets of any kind from American terrestrial or oceanic territory.

Though I have worked with diamond wire saws, hydraulic shears, pollution domes, ROVs, drilling rigs and have received several levels of well control training, you're right, I don't know what I'm talking about because I haven't worked deepwater except for one brief job repairing a caisson (nothing to do with drilling). I do know a hell of a lot more than the suits and hairdos that are reveling in taking punches at big oil and federal agencies. I can see that the popular trend is to place blame on all these nameless entities and guess that's just the nature of our lifestyle. We have been drilling in deep water, successfully, for over 20 years.
Over 200 new species of fish and water creatures have been identified since the 60's. I don't know how great the fishing in the gulf was back in the 40's before offshore drilling since I've only been in the business since the mid-1970's. The bottom line for all you angry, gas-guzzling, finger-pointers is that we don't know what happened. BOP's aren't battery operated. Anything that can go wrong has at least one (usually three) redundant systems of activation. This job had all of the BAST (Best available and safest technologies) equipment in play. We are going to learn from this and improve that technology, regardless of any new regulations. The one thing we will never know is what happened on teh drill floor. Those 11 persons will never be able to tell their stories (or see their wives, or drive their cars or hold their kids).

"Over 200 new species of fish and water creatures have been identified since the 60's."

That's because of research, not because of oil wells. Put a blcok around any other patch of ocean with or without rigs and you will find lots of new species discovered since the 1960s.

"I don't know how great the fishing in the gulf was back in the 40's before offshore drilling since I've only been in the business since the mid-1970's."

Sport fishing has been big business in the gulf since the onset of the post-war (WW2) automobile economy. Get you a Shell Oil tourist map of the US from 1950 and have a look at the artwork.

"The bottom line for all you angry, gas-guzzling, finger-pointers is that we don't know what happened."

That is incorrect. Already we have a very good idea what happened. Finger pointing, followed by criminal charges, is the correct course from here. As you have noted we've been doing oceanic drilling for a while. This case already has ALL of the earmarks of a manufactured crisis caused by a desire to shortcut safety in the name of profit.

And none of us are gas-guzzlers. That dog won't hunt. I accept NONE of the blame you're directing at the public, as though the mere consumption of gasoline forced some jackass at BP to disregard safety. BULL CRAP. Take that baloney and eat it yourself.

"The one thing we will never know is what happened on teh drill floor."

Especially not if apologists for the oil industry succeed in their campaign of trying to diffuse the responsibility, and shut down full investigatory process. Nothing makes "we're all responsible" a more marketable CON JOB than declaring a problem uninvestigatable.

@Yooper -

There have been two rounds of public review. By talley, 90% of the public doesn't want the permit to go through. All of the surrounding towns save Benson, which is really not close to the mine, have voted to oppose the mine. Pima County Board of supers has voted to oppose the mine. Arizona Game and Fish says it will be a disaster for wildlife in the area and opposes the mine. Both of the local Congressmen (Giffords and Grijalva) claim to oppose the mine. Federal Law says that the USFS can reach an outcome of No Action (meaning No Permit), but the local USFS super is a Bush stooge who claims that the Responsible Person cannot decide to arrive at an outcome of "No Action."

The only people who support the thing are the Chinese, some Canadian investors, and a few local Quislings who expect to personally benefit from equipment leasing and maintenance contracts.

forestryguy
Welcome to the forum...
"It is time that everyone that loves the outdoors to become an environmentalist, if they do not see themselves as one already. (If you take from the environment you must be willing to put equal or more back in the environment than you take.)"

I do not claim to speak for all here,but I would say that the majority of us are enviromentalists in our own way,we tend to take care of the streams,lakes,rivers,we fish,and the woods we hunt and trap in.
We hunt,we fish,we trap,we love the outdoors,we are not however,what most would call "enviromentalists"; to me that term generally brings to mind those who oppose hunting,trapping and in some cases, fishing.
Myself,and my family own land in several states,Montana being one of them,and the "enviros" are trying to ban all trapping on public lands in Montana,among other bad ideas attached to Montana I-161.
That said, we all use oil in some way,we are not however the ones at fault,BP,Halliburton,Transocean are at fault,along with the MMS for issuing the drilling permit. Some blame lies with the Corps of Engineers for waiting before the sand berms are started,that was uncalled for.
BP should NEVER have been given a drilling permit without having a viable emergency clean-up plan,and equipment to do so in place.
A lot of people and companies,along with the fed gov are to blame.
It is way past time for playing the blame game,time to start using everything we have to clean the oil up,and top prevent more damage to the salt marshes,estuaries,and beaches,fishing will never recover if there are no marshes.
Shutting down oil drilling is not the right thing to do,having those in the gov. agencies responsible for oversight of drilling actually do their jobs would be the right place to start,putting a few hundred thousand MORE people out of work in the gulf region will not help anything except the presidents PR.
Inspect the drilling rigs,and get these guys back to work,or there will be even more damage to the gulf economy.

Most sportsmen are in the drill baby drill crowd.

13 nations ready to respond and Obama said, no thanks!

The only reason they are trying to drill a mile deep is because conservationists have forced them into deep water operations.

Alaska is asking now why there is an area larger than California set aside for Polar Bears when there are more Polar Bears now then there were thirty years ago? They want to drill onshore where it is much safer and logical... As much as I hear about the melting ice in the northern arctic regions I never hear anything about the growth of Antarctica. We have the same amount of ice, it is just in a different place.