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Petzal: A Few Unkind Words About Progress

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July 30, 2010

Petzal: A Few Unkind Words About Progress

By David E. Petzal

A couple of months ago I was sent a laser-rangefinding binocular to try out. It was in the medium price range, and I thought it was something the world was truly ready for. However, when I unpacked it and looked at the instruction booklet, alarm bells went off. The “booklet” was thicker than the instruction manual for an F-15, and was filled with the same sort of alpha-numeric gibberish that you see in flat-screen television manuals.

The reasons for this are a) it was written by engineers and b) the binocular was intended for both bow- and rifle hunters, and was designed to compute not only shots taken on the flat, but also angles. To get it to tell me the distance to the target in yards was more than I could do. Also, the LED display was so dim it could not be seen in daylight, and I was unable to crank it up to full power. The neck strap, even when shortened as much as possible, left the glasses swinging down around my belt buckle. Otherwise it was fine.

Just today I e-mailed a scope company that send me a laser-rangefinding (and compensating!) scope that was fine except the directions had only a vague resemblance to reality and I could not get the thing to program itself for the cartridge I was using. I admit I am a Luddite when it comes to electronics, but how do you go wrong pressing down two buttons simultaneously?

I’d like to talk to the people who put this stuff out and ask them what the problem is. Do they test it all? Do non-engineers ever try it out before it goes into production? Do they have anyone on their design staffs who actually hunts?

On second thought, skip it.

Comments (61)

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from ishawooa wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Get a Leica rangefinder, throw away the booklet, and go hunting. I've had one for years which has proved to me that neither I or anyone I know can predict range worth diddly. Works in just about any weather, consistently checks out to be accurate, is compact enough that it is not a bother to carry or use. My only complaint is that it is time consuming and a bit difficult to hold the rangefinder on a deer or elk out at 800-900 yards. Insofar as the all knowing, all seeing range finding scopes, they are too bulky for the field anyway, at least so far.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Beekeeper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Dave from a fellow Luddite the answer is "NO" they don't test it in a real world. Slow response times, dim readouts, complicated button pressing progressions all reflect that these gadgets were not designed to be used under real world stress.

There seems to be a large generational gap between the techno savy and those of use who hope to be self sufficient in that area. I just purchased a laser range finder with the elevation/depression compensation capability. It does seem to work and in "BOW" mode it is quite simple. Kind of point and "stick" if you will. The rifle mode is somewhat complicated to program and none of the loads are exactly what I'm shooting. While I'm no dullard I don't have the mental processing capabilities of Mr. Spock or possibly even Dr. Spock.

For rifle hunting I'll be using it as a range finder and let my own on board computer do the rest. If I take up a stand somewhere I'll take the time to use the calculator to range out reference marks at various ranges. Meanwhile I'll get my sister's 6 year old to program the dang thing!

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from blackdawgz wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Ah yousta be a electronics engineer.

These days, management is only interested in quick shoddy work then firing the engineer and getting a product out and getting a job thet pays better somewhere else.

In my case, they stoled the wrong thing and farred me and got nothing!

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from MJC wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

My personal goal is to become a hunter and a woodsman and learn all of the intrinsic knowledge that goes with those appellations.

Having said that, I'll probably still buy a basic rangefinder at some point. That skill's a bit harder to practice than fire building and map reading, especially if you don't have to rangefinder to tell you if your WAG (wilda** guess) is right or not.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Bellringer wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Isn't it curious how us old timers manage year after year to get our deer without the use of trail cams, rangefinders and night vision goggles. There comes a time when too much is too much.
Maybe we should go back to the basics, if an animal is so far away that a modern rifle trajectory is not minute of animal, maybe the creature is too far away to shoot right then, its called hunting, get closer numnuts.
Personally if there are no powder burns on the hide, the shot is too long. Most hunters, myself included have equipment that far exceeds our ability, just because my rifle will shoot 800 yards doesn' mean I should take the shot.
I once hunted in a club where there was a clear measured lane of 1,246 yards. Another hunter took a shot at almost the maximum distance he could see on that lane, and swore he saw the impact of the bullet and hair fly, but he never found the deer. Maybe sometimes we can deceive ourselves as to our performance and abilities, but if you do, be prepared for disappointment.

Now for the good news, in Mississippi, it is only 62 days until bow season opens.

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from Walt Smith wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

I feel that 300 to 400 yards is the maximum distance anyone should take at game amimals, and you shouldn't need a fancy rangefinding scope or binocular to figure it out.

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from Tom Ryle wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

David,

I feel your pain and frustration. It is maddening at times, isn't it?

I'm an industrial designer/manager with nearly two decades of experience designing products. To answer your questions: "Do they test it all? Do non-engineers ever try it out before it goes into production? Do they have anyone on their design staffs who actually hunts?"

The short answer is, no. There is not space here to adequately delve into the reasons why but I can tell you from experience that many of the companies cranking out the "stuff" that fills the pages of annual gear guides, etc. do not have people who 'actually hunt' on their design staffs. This has been a point of frustration for me for many years, dating back to when I worked with a notable GPS received manufacturer whose manual looked like the same F-15 instruction manual you mentioned above. The problem is that instruction manuals are born from Software Developers (the guys who write the code), so natually the lingo is WAY off base for the average Joe user.

My profession is about the entire User Experience, not just the product appearance and function. Far too many companies miss the holistic approach to Design, which results in products that frustrate users.

I welcome further discussion, if you care to learn more. This is a topic I'm very passionate about with regard to the outdoor/hunting industry.

Thanks,
Tom Ryle

http://pnwbowhunting.blogspot.com/

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

David first of all, F15 Manuals thick as they are are actually easy to use.

As for, "Do they have anyone on their design staffs who actually hunts?"

I'm sure they do, but in every Company the Jack Wagons have a special Office totally separate with some individual with some degree totally unrelated to what is at hand to rewrite the directions to some Pig Latin format!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Clinton's definition of "IS,,,IS" comes to mind!

What "PLUG N' PLAY" they just don't understand!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Tom Ryle

I checked out the link, it's amazing what modifications we do after we get it!

+1 for'ya!

O'by the way Tom, WELCOME!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Walt, for the average Joe & Jane with today's Cartridges flat shooting like the 25-06, 300 to 400 yards shouldn't require a range finder!

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

OH the dreaded "Do the engineers ever test these items with everyday people" question strikes again!I have tested products(yet to hit the market)as a NAHC member, and I would think they take our shared imput seriously?
Either way, we get to keep the product and it's nice to asked our opinion!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tom Ryle wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Thanks Clay!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Ah yes, the dreaded BS instruction manual. As an FAA engineering designee, I get to certify various types of equipment, which always includes operation manuals and maintenance / inspection criteria. I get my revenge on the numnuts of the world when I can't make sense of their manuals and instructions and send their asses back to square one. Sometimes it's a joy to toss something back to a whippersnapper engineer and say, "Boy, I think you need to start over on this piece of work." LOL

I had rather apply the thumbscrews locally than have mine ripped out by the FAA specialist later on. He He He

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Carney wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

While I'm pretty sure my cell phone will not only put a man on Mars, but also calculate atomic ratios, I just went with intuition instead of reading the manual: the "plug in" looked like it was for charging, the number buttons looked like they were for dialing. That's as far as I've gotten to Mars so far.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Beekeeper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Tom,

Great site and I enjoyed you Black Tail Buck Photos and the way you "moss in" the cameras.

Do you ever actually see a Black Tail buck in the day light hours after they drop velvet? I've been told they are probably the most nocturnal of all buck deer. I spent a week on the Oregon coast last September and we saw plenty of does and not even so much as a spike or forkie.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Carney wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

PS = Tom Ryle, good to see you on here! Maybe with the two of us pulling, we can get F&S a little more interested in Blacktail articles and discussions!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

I think this refers to the goofy things on the back of the new Cabela's catalog that I had a giggle at. They look so stupid, and apparently are stupid. How many knobs do they have?

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Carney wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

BeeKeeper,
I'd like to hear what Tom has to say also, but here's my two cents worth:
The habitat of Blacktail makes a difference in their visiblity / vulnerability. In the deep forest it is unusual to see a buck without jumping him. In more agrarian areas they are not quite as nocturnal but can be seen in the fields / meadows before dusk. However, during hunting season, there's not much seeing of anything without a LOT of hard work!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from FirstBubba wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Each year (since I only bow hunt one stand) I take a stick of 1x4 about 12 inches long. This is ripped into stakes about 1/2 thick. Then about an inch of the top is painted white. These stakes, with the help of a 100 ft tape, are pressed into the ground at 5 yards intervals starting at 10 yards.
Voila!!! No need for a range finder!!!
For rifle hunting! I use the SWAG* and TLAR** method out to about 250 yards. Past 250 yards!? I probably ain't gonna shoot!!

*SWAG - Scientific Wild A** Guess
**TLAR - That Looks About Right

Bubba

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from huntnfishnut wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

I find I really don't have all that much trouble... but I probably fall into that age-gap category...

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Gritz wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

I said a while back, "forget it." My wife bought me a GPS. I was really excited and spent a (*&T ton of money on TOPO maps and still haven't figured it out. I guess I know enough to set it for the car and get back to the car. That is if I ever feel like lugging it around. I tried a scope on one of my rifles once. I guess it works, but that is as far as I am going to go. I would rather get lost with just a knife and a rifle than know exactly where I am, how many inches I am from a target, weather reports, when the bucks are moving, etc.... and carry fifty gadgets with me. The longer I hunt, the more deer I put in my freezer, the more I find myself turning to simplicity. No more handwarmers. No more thermal/scent/scentlock/hypersuperduper underwear or fancy foot wear. I just grab a rifle, my warmest wool and head out in the quiet. I don't use a stand, and I don't use a blind. I've been more successful turkey hunting and deer hunting this way because I am having fun and enjoying myself more, which makes me find a way to get out in the woods more. I am instead spending more of my time and money reading books about hunting methods and minimalist guides (most of which are bunk but every once in a while I will find something useful.) I would encourage any hunter to avoid gadgets that are not absolutely necessary. But trends are trends and money is money I guess.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tom Ryle wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

BeeKeeper & Carney,

True coastal Columbian Blacktails - mature blacktails - are a tough nut to crack for sure. They rarely offer daytime sightings with the exception of the opening week of early archery season and possibly during the chasing phase of the rut (late October). They typicially turn completely nocturnal once the velvet comes off, or just prior to shedding out. Contrary to what you often read, I don't believe they hole up and bed all day. Instead, I feel they are highly selective in where they choose to bed and move during daylight hours. nothing is by accident which is why most blundering hunters will never lay eyes on a mature blacktail during the season. They are there but unlike a whitetail or mule deer, they are more apt to lay flat to the ground and let you walk by that bust out in a high-bounding escape. I once walked up on a 3 point buck in an open grassy field. He was laying flat and all I could see was his tines jutting up from the grass. When I moved to within 10 yards he erupted and bounded across the open field.

If you read my article titled "Blacktails - The Next Level" I go into some key elements of my overall strategy in finding mature bucks and hunting them later in the year. It's not an exact science by any stretch but having been successful on many species, I still come back to the blacktail as being the most difficult to tag consistently with a bow.

I've recently put together a seminar on Blacktail Strategies. I go into a year-round approach to hunting this elusive deer regardless of hunting method.

Thanks!
Tom

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from cbanks wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Dave: I hate to say it, but I'm the true Luddite--I won't use a laser rangefinder at all in hunting. You know how I feel--if I can't eyeball the range, I don't deserve to harvest the game.

I know you and I disagree on this, and that your readers expect you to guide them in buying and using these tecchie products, but your experience with these product evaluations makes me think that the 'industry' is trying to sell us gadgets that violate the spirit of hunting.

The tecchie advances I can support are cartridges and bullets that let me sight in point blank on big game to 350 yards plus. With stuff like that, who needs a laser rangefinder?

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

The problem with instruction manuals,

THEY WORD YOU TO DEATH!

Lets use the maximum amount of words how to? IMAGINE!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

O'that reminds me, had to give a 15 minute speech on a paper clip. I was cut short when I turned it into a deadly weapon with 4 rubber bands and it stuck into yonder wall!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

David, the access and use I had to the most advanced weapon systems to be installed on including the F15A,B,C,D,E including Cobra Ball to name one isn't nowhere near as wordy as the manual for my GPS!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from RJ Arena wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Dave, I have a simple solution to your immediate problem with this range finder, you need to bring along a 15 year old, that way you can teach him/her to shoot and hunt and they can operate the gizmo. Everybody wins!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

RJ, don't laugh, there's some truth in what you say! 3 year old Grandson knows how to operates his Mothers IPod!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from RJ Arena wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

All joking aside, that is why the ipod was so successful, it was darn simple to use. Not all of us need every possible way to tweak a device.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tom Ryle wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Henry Ford said, "If I gave my customers what they wanted, they'd have asked for faster horses."

Innovation is pointless if it is done without comprehending the human experience.

Apple doesn't ask users what they should design next but they staff a boat load of UX professionals who are 100% aligned to the end state experience. The iPod is just a piece of hardware; it's the services, such as iTunes, that make it so innovative as a business model. And yes, it must be (and is) drop dead simple for mass adoption.

-Tom

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from elmer f. wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

actually, lets NOT skip it! the products are SUPPOSED to be used by mere mortals, not electrical/mechanical engineers only! if a product is not user freindly, it is of little use to the vast majority of us. how many people do you know that have the time and patience to read (and really understand) a 130 page instruction manual for something the typical consumer is going to use for a couple of weeks out of the year. then do it every year for the next thirty or so years. it is not going to happen for very many of us. to me, a good scope or rangefinder is a once or maybe twice in a lifetime investment. who, in the real world, buys a new rifle scope every year or two? once in a while, things happen, and you are forced to replace one, but normally, if you buy a decent scope, to begin with, you could probably epoxy it to the rifle, and never look back. binoculars and rangefinders, to me, last for years and years. i do not throw them around like a football, or leave them out in the rain. when it begins to rain, if they are not already inside my jacket, that is where they go. it is pretty annoying to need to look at movement, and find the lenses snow covered or dirty. keeping them clean and safe is a priority.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from kudukid wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Who cares if an animal is 800 - 900 yards away. If it's that far then it's too far to be shooting at under field conditions.

A simple rangefinder is found in a dot reticle. Easy to use and it should be able to give you a pretty decent approximation of range out to 500 yards which is plenty far enough!

High tech requires high touch or it's junk.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from wgiles wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

It's not that the instructions were written by engineers, but that they were written by someone that is too familiar with the product. It also may be that the writer was someone who doesn't use English as their primary language. I'm an engineer and I have the same problem all the time. I go back and forth through the instructions just trying to find out what I need to know to make the product work. Proper organization is the key to writing instructions. How does the product work, what do I need to know to make it work and things that I might want to know to make it work better. My lawnmower has an hour meter that flashes "Check Oil Now" when I start it. The instruction manual says nothing about this message. Is it a low oil alarm or a friendly reminder to check the oil? it would be nice to know.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Tom Ryle

A +1 for you!

If we let them have there way, we would look like this riding a bike!

http://www.msubillings.edu/BusinessFaculty/larsen/MGMT452/OSHA%20humor/O...

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from FirstBubba wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

wgiles

In the not too distant past, I was assembling a rocking chair for a friend who purchased the thing at Wally World. It was still in the box marked, "Made in China" and came with assembly instructions. I still laugh when I remember the instructions when it came time to turn the chair over. It read, and I quote... "upside down the chair"

Bubba

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from keithjoyner wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

I have the scope you refer to (Burris Eliminator). At the range it is awesome. September 1st I'll try it on one of Arizona's trophy antelope (I hope!). The buttons you mention are a little hard to use, but I got it programmed OK. It's big, it's heavy and the next generation will, no doubt, be much more compact. But just in case, I have my trusty 35-year old Ruger .270 with its never-fail Leopold scope. Sometimes you just have to spend your money on something new, I guess!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tim Platt wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

My rule of thumb is if you have to have directions the object in question is not user friendly enough for the field. Inherently when you really need to use it you will be nervous and shaky and fail. Keep it simple stupid...

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Del in KS wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

If you really want a blacktail go to Afognak or Kodiak Islands. There are plenty of nice bucks there and bag limits are liberal. These are Sitka Blacktails, suppose they look pretty much alike.
The Drury boys and some other hunting show celebs will be at the KC Cabelas today and tomorrow. Oh well guess I won't be able to make it.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Zermoid wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Another good reason to take your kids hunting, they will know how to use all the techno crap you will never fathom!

Just got a new cell phone, has a book about a 1/2 inch thick with it, and I still can't figger out how to turn up the vibrate alarm so I can shut off the dang sound to go hunting with it come fall. Hopefully I can get one of the kids to fix it for me before then.......

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tom Ryle wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

wgiles and FirstBubba,

I spend time in China now and again (not by choice!), and you point out another common issue with instructions. Let me point you to a site called www.engrish.com, which focuses on this very point.

I have fought to manufacture products in the mighty USA with little success. It all comes down to capacity and cost, or cost only depending on how large the company is and what product is being manufactured. Vietnam has become a hotbed for textile manufacturing in recent years, so expect to see that on the labels of your hunting packs and clothing. I guess I'm getting into a whole different topic here...

Let me add a point about "field testing" here. One fact that you must consider with regard to getting user feedback - most companies, if they do it at all, do it WAY too late in the development cycle. User validation around usability, performance, size, button layouts, and the details that are a vital component of the User Experience must occur very early, and often. It's not design-by-committee, rather it is about given real end-users a chance to share their gripes about existing solutions and offer their ideas and thoughts to inform the development of new solutions. The key word is "inform".

Field Testing gear for magazines or other organizations is little more that seeking good press. How many bad reviews have you read by hunters? Who's going to write an objective review when they are given the product to keep? Maybe this is hitting a little too close to home but the fact is, unless a publication or company is willing to let the chips fall where they may, then the whole effort is pointless - if the goal is to help the average Joe make an informed decision about where to spend his/her hard-earned money. And in today's economy, this is no time to be duping readers or hunters with tainted information.

Take that or leave it but its the truth. The stated outcome of any field testing or product review should be clearly understood by the audience and/or participants.

Cheers!
Tom Ryle
http://pnwbowhunting.blogspot.com/

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Del, I shindigs, there always WAY overcrowded you can't get near any of the counters to see what they are trying to sell, so I like to go there on Wednesdays because that is usually the slowest day a cna going grabit,bagit and tag it and GTF outta there.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

never go to those shindigs!! sheesh dang thing dropper words again! &%^$#@

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

And anyway,I usually shoot no more than 250 yards
still like my 30 year old Leupold :)

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Walt Smith wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

What a lot of our fellow hunters don't realize is when you sight in dead on at 250 yards at the range the ground is what? Flat! When you are hunting afield you can be 5-10 feet above or below an animal and it might only look like 2-3 feet! Thats something your $2000.00 super duper rangefinder lighted reticle 3X9X 50mm scope won't compute!!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Zermoid wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

"Who's going to write an objective review when they are given the product to keep?"

I do, I'm a lifetime member of the North American Hunting Club, and when I get a piece of useless garbage I tell them so. Worst thing I ever got from them was a shotgun shell designed to clean out a plugged or fouled barrel, you put it in and fire it and a BB with a string attached shoots out the muzzle, actually had enough force to blow out thru the caked mud I jammed in the barrel as a test. (Didn't happen to have snow at the time so I used what was available)

Now up to this point all was fine and dandy, it went downhill real fast after that.

You are supposed to be able to pull the string to which a cleaning and oiling wad are attached out of the barrel taking any crud with it and leaving the barrel pristine and oiled for storage. BULLSH*T.

IF you had a very heavy pair of leather work gloves you 'might' be able to pull it out by hand, but the GD string (it reminded me of part of the core of a para cord, ONE of the strands mind you) cuts right into a pair of standard nylon ski type gloves in short order. I ended up wrapping the string around the handle of my knife to pull the thing up to the choke, where the string broke.
Luckily it left enough string to wrap the knife handle again and after some cussing and swearing and straining the POS finally did make it out.
Unfortunately also leaving some mud stains still in the barrel. Good enuf to continue hunting if you had fell and shoved the muzzle in the ground but I could have done just as well with a pen knife and a handkerchief on a stick. And with alot less effort to boot!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from MLH wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Ah, you just need a teenager at home to interpret it for you and make you even grumpier. Just imagine if it was translated from Chinese.

Interesting timing in that I am going through this very thing right now. The instruction manuals aren't necessarily written by engineers, though thy often start that way. At least our management has the common sense to pay a third party (the ones that actually use the manuals) to go through them to ensure they are usable.

The products themselves? Well, some things get released before their time. Got to get the cash flow going for the investors after all - figure they can make it better on the second or third iteration. Honda and Toyota used to kick the US automakers' butts by getting it right the first time. Complacency? Or Wall Street/Nikkei? Your choice.

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from Tom Ryle wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Zermoid,

Good for you for telling it how it is!

Good hunting,
Tom

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Thanks for coming on this blog promoting your own blogsphere and hijacking this thread.

-1 Good Comment? | | Report
from SD Bob wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

This year I bought a new fish finder because the company alledged it could tell me if a fish was sitting on the bottom of if a log lay there plus I just wanted a new one. The damn thing takes a million button pushes to execute what should be a simple command! I'm thinking I need to throw it in the river and start bank fishing with the timeless technology of hook, sinker and chunk of worm!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

I remember that day, to get the contraption working I had to go through every page line by line and found the answer buried in gibberish neither Latin or Greek totally unknown language!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Speaking of directions check this one out!

http://www.generalcomics.com/funny-directory/35/3508-funny-cartoon.jpg

Coming soon to a restroom near you!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Bellringer wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

The best way to operate some of these new high tech devices is to place it on a stump, apply sledge hammer.
Problem solved.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Carney wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter -- be nice. If the new guy hangs around he'll end up getting a few hits in the head like the rest of us...

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from dale freeman wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

yOU WOULD BE DOING US A FAVOR IF YOU NAMED NAMES.
SOMETIMES SOME OF US MIGHT HAVE TO ORDER SOMETHING WITHOUT TRYING IT OUT. MORE, OR LESS, BY COMPANY NAME.
KNOW WHAT i MEAN "Vern.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Carney

Might as well get his thump right up front and get it over with... LOL

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jeff Bowers wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

With about 35 years as a computer and electronics technician, Somewhere along the line I developed a tried-and-true philosophy...

No offense to the people who test and/or have to sell the latest fad, but it is;

"Never buy anything the year it comes out."

For me, this covers cars, motorcycles, media equipment, computer parts, and yes, even hunting or field equipment.

It seems every time something new it out, it immediately requires tweaking, new software, recall parts, upgrading, etc.

We would never implement any new software until at least the first service update was available.

This has worked for my family, and I haven't been much put out just waiting a while for something.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from dale freeman wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

We get from all sides.
How about all the "hoopla" on the boattail.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 36 weeks ago

Watching the Outdoors Channel this morning didn't catch the name of the show. The fella said, there is no such thing of a bad day when you got good gear!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from FirstBubba wrote 3 years 36 weeks ago

I dunno Clay. I've had some pretty crappy gear and had a really good day.
Had a handmade turkey call that sounded like a rat with it's foot hung in a wringer! Called in two birds at one time.
Had a bow reel that was basically a plastic drinking glass screwed to the front of my bow. Fishing arrow was a field tip with a hole drilled in it and a piece of fishhook for a barb. It worked and I had a blast.

You don't need a Rolls to get to the dance! You just gotta know how to dance!!

Bubba

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from Raygun15E wrote 3 years 35 weeks ago

Clay is spot on with the F-15 manuals. The -1 is thick, but pretty easy to read and understand. However, there are over 4 of those thick manuals that go along with that plane. Sometimes simple is much more useful and enjoyable to use.

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from Bellringer wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Isn't it curious how us old timers manage year after year to get our deer without the use of trail cams, rangefinders and night vision goggles. There comes a time when too much is too much.
Maybe we should go back to the basics, if an animal is so far away that a modern rifle trajectory is not minute of animal, maybe the creature is too far away to shoot right then, its called hunting, get closer numnuts.
Personally if there are no powder burns on the hide, the shot is too long. Most hunters, myself included have equipment that far exceeds our ability, just because my rifle will shoot 800 yards doesn' mean I should take the shot.
I once hunted in a club where there was a clear measured lane of 1,246 yards. Another hunter took a shot at almost the maximum distance he could see on that lane, and swore he saw the impact of the bullet and hair fly, but he never found the deer. Maybe sometimes we can deceive ourselves as to our performance and abilities, but if you do, be prepared for disappointment.

Now for the good news, in Mississippi, it is only 62 days until bow season opens.

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from Beekeeper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Dave from a fellow Luddite the answer is "NO" they don't test it in a real world. Slow response times, dim readouts, complicated button pressing progressions all reflect that these gadgets were not designed to be used under real world stress.

There seems to be a large generational gap between the techno savy and those of use who hope to be self sufficient in that area. I just purchased a laser range finder with the elevation/depression compensation capability. It does seem to work and in "BOW" mode it is quite simple. Kind of point and "stick" if you will. The rifle mode is somewhat complicated to program and none of the loads are exactly what I'm shooting. While I'm no dullard I don't have the mental processing capabilities of Mr. Spock or possibly even Dr. Spock.

For rifle hunting I'll be using it as a range finder and let my own on board computer do the rest. If I take up a stand somewhere I'll take the time to use the calculator to range out reference marks at various ranges. Meanwhile I'll get my sister's 6 year old to program the dang thing!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Ah yes, the dreaded BS instruction manual. As an FAA engineering designee, I get to certify various types of equipment, which always includes operation manuals and maintenance / inspection criteria. I get my revenge on the numnuts of the world when I can't make sense of their manuals and instructions and send their asses back to square one. Sometimes it's a joy to toss something back to a whippersnapper engineer and say, "Boy, I think you need to start over on this piece of work." LOL

I had rather apply the thumbscrews locally than have mine ripped out by the FAA specialist later on. He He He

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from Carney wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

While I'm pretty sure my cell phone will not only put a man on Mars, but also calculate atomic ratios, I just went with intuition instead of reading the manual: the "plug in" looked like it was for charging, the number buttons looked like they were for dialing. That's as far as I've gotten to Mars so far.

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from ishawooa wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Get a Leica rangefinder, throw away the booklet, and go hunting. I've had one for years which has proved to me that neither I or anyone I know can predict range worth diddly. Works in just about any weather, consistently checks out to be accurate, is compact enough that it is not a bother to carry or use. My only complaint is that it is time consuming and a bit difficult to hold the rangefinder on a deer or elk out at 800-900 yards. Insofar as the all knowing, all seeing range finding scopes, they are too bulky for the field anyway, at least so far.

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from blackdawgz wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Ah yousta be a electronics engineer.

These days, management is only interested in quick shoddy work then firing the engineer and getting a product out and getting a job thet pays better somewhere else.

In my case, they stoled the wrong thing and farred me and got nothing!

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from Walt Smith wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

I feel that 300 to 400 yards is the maximum distance anyone should take at game amimals, and you shouldn't need a fancy rangefinding scope or binocular to figure it out.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Walt, for the average Joe & Jane with today's Cartridges flat shooting like the 25-06, 300 to 400 yards shouldn't require a range finder!

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from Gritz wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

I said a while back, "forget it." My wife bought me a GPS. I was really excited and spent a (*&T ton of money on TOPO maps and still haven't figured it out. I guess I know enough to set it for the car and get back to the car. That is if I ever feel like lugging it around. I tried a scope on one of my rifles once. I guess it works, but that is as far as I am going to go. I would rather get lost with just a knife and a rifle than know exactly where I am, how many inches I am from a target, weather reports, when the bucks are moving, etc.... and carry fifty gadgets with me. The longer I hunt, the more deer I put in my freezer, the more I find myself turning to simplicity. No more handwarmers. No more thermal/scent/scentlock/hypersuperduper underwear or fancy foot wear. I just grab a rifle, my warmest wool and head out in the quiet. I don't use a stand, and I don't use a blind. I've been more successful turkey hunting and deer hunting this way because I am having fun and enjoying myself more, which makes me find a way to get out in the woods more. I am instead spending more of my time and money reading books about hunting methods and minimalist guides (most of which are bunk but every once in a while I will find something useful.) I would encourage any hunter to avoid gadgets that are not absolutely necessary. But trends are trends and money is money I guess.

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from Tom Ryle wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Henry Ford said, "If I gave my customers what they wanted, they'd have asked for faster horses."

Innovation is pointless if it is done without comprehending the human experience.

Apple doesn't ask users what they should design next but they staff a boat load of UX professionals who are 100% aligned to the end state experience. The iPod is just a piece of hardware; it's the services, such as iTunes, that make it so innovative as a business model. And yes, it must be (and is) drop dead simple for mass adoption.

-Tom

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from Bellringer wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

The best way to operate some of these new high tech devices is to place it on a stump, apply sledge hammer.
Problem solved.

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from Carney wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter -- be nice. If the new guy hangs around he'll end up getting a few hits in the head like the rest of us...

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from MJC wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

My personal goal is to become a hunter and a woodsman and learn all of the intrinsic knowledge that goes with those appellations.

Having said that, I'll probably still buy a basic rangefinder at some point. That skill's a bit harder to practice than fire building and map reading, especially if you don't have to rangefinder to tell you if your WAG (wilda** guess) is right or not.

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from Tom Ryle wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

David,

I feel your pain and frustration. It is maddening at times, isn't it?

I'm an industrial designer/manager with nearly two decades of experience designing products. To answer your questions: "Do they test it all? Do non-engineers ever try it out before it goes into production? Do they have anyone on their design staffs who actually hunts?"

The short answer is, no. There is not space here to adequately delve into the reasons why but I can tell you from experience that many of the companies cranking out the "stuff" that fills the pages of annual gear guides, etc. do not have people who 'actually hunt' on their design staffs. This has been a point of frustration for me for many years, dating back to when I worked with a notable GPS received manufacturer whose manual looked like the same F-15 instruction manual you mentioned above. The problem is that instruction manuals are born from Software Developers (the guys who write the code), so natually the lingo is WAY off base for the average Joe user.

My profession is about the entire User Experience, not just the product appearance and function. Far too many companies miss the holistic approach to Design, which results in products that frustrate users.

I welcome further discussion, if you care to learn more. This is a topic I'm very passionate about with regard to the outdoor/hunting industry.

Thanks,
Tom Ryle

http://pnwbowhunting.blogspot.com/

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

OH the dreaded "Do the engineers ever test these items with everyday people" question strikes again!I have tested products(yet to hit the market)as a NAHC member, and I would think they take our shared imput seriously?
Either way, we get to keep the product and it's nice to asked our opinion!

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from Tom Ryle wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Thanks Clay!

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from Beekeeper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Tom,

Great site and I enjoyed you Black Tail Buck Photos and the way you "moss in" the cameras.

Do you ever actually see a Black Tail buck in the day light hours after they drop velvet? I've been told they are probably the most nocturnal of all buck deer. I spent a week on the Oregon coast last September and we saw plenty of does and not even so much as a spike or forkie.

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from Carney wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

PS = Tom Ryle, good to see you on here! Maybe with the two of us pulling, we can get F&S a little more interested in Blacktail articles and discussions!

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from shane wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

I think this refers to the goofy things on the back of the new Cabela's catalog that I had a giggle at. They look so stupid, and apparently are stupid. How many knobs do they have?

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from Carney wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

BeeKeeper,
I'd like to hear what Tom has to say also, but here's my two cents worth:
The habitat of Blacktail makes a difference in their visiblity / vulnerability. In the deep forest it is unusual to see a buck without jumping him. In more agrarian areas they are not quite as nocturnal but can be seen in the fields / meadows before dusk. However, during hunting season, there's not much seeing of anything without a LOT of hard work!

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from FirstBubba wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Each year (since I only bow hunt one stand) I take a stick of 1x4 about 12 inches long. This is ripped into stakes about 1/2 thick. Then about an inch of the top is painted white. These stakes, with the help of a 100 ft tape, are pressed into the ground at 5 yards intervals starting at 10 yards.
Voila!!! No need for a range finder!!!
For rifle hunting! I use the SWAG* and TLAR** method out to about 250 yards. Past 250 yards!? I probably ain't gonna shoot!!

*SWAG - Scientific Wild A** Guess
**TLAR - That Looks About Right

Bubba

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from Tom Ryle wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

BeeKeeper & Carney,

True coastal Columbian Blacktails - mature blacktails - are a tough nut to crack for sure. They rarely offer daytime sightings with the exception of the opening week of early archery season and possibly during the chasing phase of the rut (late October). They typicially turn completely nocturnal once the velvet comes off, or just prior to shedding out. Contrary to what you often read, I don't believe they hole up and bed all day. Instead, I feel they are highly selective in where they choose to bed and move during daylight hours. nothing is by accident which is why most blundering hunters will never lay eyes on a mature blacktail during the season. They are there but unlike a whitetail or mule deer, they are more apt to lay flat to the ground and let you walk by that bust out in a high-bounding escape. I once walked up on a 3 point buck in an open grassy field. He was laying flat and all I could see was his tines jutting up from the grass. When I moved to within 10 yards he erupted and bounded across the open field.

If you read my article titled "Blacktails - The Next Level" I go into some key elements of my overall strategy in finding mature bucks and hunting them later in the year. It's not an exact science by any stretch but having been successful on many species, I still come back to the blacktail as being the most difficult to tag consistently with a bow.

I've recently put together a seminar on Blacktail Strategies. I go into a year-round approach to hunting this elusive deer regardless of hunting method.

Thanks!
Tom

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from cbanks wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Dave: I hate to say it, but I'm the true Luddite--I won't use a laser rangefinder at all in hunting. You know how I feel--if I can't eyeball the range, I don't deserve to harvest the game.

I know you and I disagree on this, and that your readers expect you to guide them in buying and using these tecchie products, but your experience with these product evaluations makes me think that the 'industry' is trying to sell us gadgets that violate the spirit of hunting.

The tecchie advances I can support are cartridges and bullets that let me sight in point blank on big game to 350 yards plus. With stuff like that, who needs a laser rangefinder?

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from RJ Arena wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Dave, I have a simple solution to your immediate problem with this range finder, you need to bring along a 15 year old, that way you can teach him/her to shoot and hunt and they can operate the gizmo. Everybody wins!

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from kudukid wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Who cares if an animal is 800 - 900 yards away. If it's that far then it's too far to be shooting at under field conditions.

A simple rangefinder is found in a dot reticle. Easy to use and it should be able to give you a pretty decent approximation of range out to 500 yards which is plenty far enough!

High tech requires high touch or it's junk.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Tom Ryle

A +1 for you!

If we let them have there way, we would look like this riding a bike!

http://www.msubillings.edu/BusinessFaculty/larsen/MGMT452/OSHA%20humor/O...

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from Zermoid wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Another good reason to take your kids hunting, they will know how to use all the techno crap you will never fathom!

Just got a new cell phone, has a book about a 1/2 inch thick with it, and I still can't figger out how to turn up the vibrate alarm so I can shut off the dang sound to go hunting with it come fall. Hopefully I can get one of the kids to fix it for me before then.......

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from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Speaking of directions check this one out!

http://www.generalcomics.com/funny-directory/35/3508-funny-cartoon.jpg

Coming soon to a restroom near you!

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from Jeff Bowers wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

With about 35 years as a computer and electronics technician, Somewhere along the line I developed a tried-and-true philosophy...

No offense to the people who test and/or have to sell the latest fad, but it is;

"Never buy anything the year it comes out."

For me, this covers cars, motorcycles, media equipment, computer parts, and yes, even hunting or field equipment.

It seems every time something new it out, it immediately requires tweaking, new software, recall parts, upgrading, etc.

We would never implement any new software until at least the first service update was available.

This has worked for my family, and I haven't been much put out just waiting a while for something.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 36 weeks ago

Watching the Outdoors Channel this morning didn't catch the name of the show. The fella said, there is no such thing of a bad day when you got good gear!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

David first of all, F15 Manuals thick as they are are actually easy to use.

As for, "Do they have anyone on their design staffs who actually hunts?"

I'm sure they do, but in every Company the Jack Wagons have a special Office totally separate with some individual with some degree totally unrelated to what is at hand to rewrite the directions to some Pig Latin format!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Clinton's definition of "IS,,,IS" comes to mind!

What "PLUG N' PLAY" they just don't understand!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Tom Ryle

I checked out the link, it's amazing what modifications we do after we get it!

+1 for'ya!

O'by the way Tom, WELCOME!

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from huntnfishnut wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

I find I really don't have all that much trouble... but I probably fall into that age-gap category...

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from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

The problem with instruction manuals,

THEY WORD YOU TO DEATH!

Lets use the maximum amount of words how to? IMAGINE!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

O'that reminds me, had to give a 15 minute speech on a paper clip. I was cut short when I turned it into a deadly weapon with 4 rubber bands and it stuck into yonder wall!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

David, the access and use I had to the most advanced weapon systems to be installed on including the F15A,B,C,D,E including Cobra Ball to name one isn't nowhere near as wordy as the manual for my GPS!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

RJ, don't laugh, there's some truth in what you say! 3 year old Grandson knows how to operates his Mothers IPod!

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from RJ Arena wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

All joking aside, that is why the ipod was so successful, it was darn simple to use. Not all of us need every possible way to tweak a device.

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from elmer f. wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

actually, lets NOT skip it! the products are SUPPOSED to be used by mere mortals, not electrical/mechanical engineers only! if a product is not user freindly, it is of little use to the vast majority of us. how many people do you know that have the time and patience to read (and really understand) a 130 page instruction manual for something the typical consumer is going to use for a couple of weeks out of the year. then do it every year for the next thirty or so years. it is not going to happen for very many of us. to me, a good scope or rangefinder is a once or maybe twice in a lifetime investment. who, in the real world, buys a new rifle scope every year or two? once in a while, things happen, and you are forced to replace one, but normally, if you buy a decent scope, to begin with, you could probably epoxy it to the rifle, and never look back. binoculars and rangefinders, to me, last for years and years. i do not throw them around like a football, or leave them out in the rain. when it begins to rain, if they are not already inside my jacket, that is where they go. it is pretty annoying to need to look at movement, and find the lenses snow covered or dirty. keeping them clean and safe is a priority.

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from wgiles wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

It's not that the instructions were written by engineers, but that they were written by someone that is too familiar with the product. It also may be that the writer was someone who doesn't use English as their primary language. I'm an engineer and I have the same problem all the time. I go back and forth through the instructions just trying to find out what I need to know to make the product work. Proper organization is the key to writing instructions. How does the product work, what do I need to know to make it work and things that I might want to know to make it work better. My lawnmower has an hour meter that flashes "Check Oil Now" when I start it. The instruction manual says nothing about this message. Is it a low oil alarm or a friendly reminder to check the oil? it would be nice to know.

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from FirstBubba wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

wgiles

In the not too distant past, I was assembling a rocking chair for a friend who purchased the thing at Wally World. It was still in the box marked, "Made in China" and came with assembly instructions. I still laugh when I remember the instructions when it came time to turn the chair over. It read, and I quote... "upside down the chair"

Bubba

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from keithjoyner wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

I have the scope you refer to (Burris Eliminator). At the range it is awesome. September 1st I'll try it on one of Arizona's trophy antelope (I hope!). The buttons you mention are a little hard to use, but I got it programmed OK. It's big, it's heavy and the next generation will, no doubt, be much more compact. But just in case, I have my trusty 35-year old Ruger .270 with its never-fail Leopold scope. Sometimes you just have to spend your money on something new, I guess!

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from Tim Platt wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

My rule of thumb is if you have to have directions the object in question is not user friendly enough for the field. Inherently when you really need to use it you will be nervous and shaky and fail. Keep it simple stupid...

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from Del in KS wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

If you really want a blacktail go to Afognak or Kodiak Islands. There are plenty of nice bucks there and bag limits are liberal. These are Sitka Blacktails, suppose they look pretty much alike.
The Drury boys and some other hunting show celebs will be at the KC Cabelas today and tomorrow. Oh well guess I won't be able to make it.

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from Tom Ryle wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

wgiles and FirstBubba,

I spend time in China now and again (not by choice!), and you point out another common issue with instructions. Let me point you to a site called www.engrish.com, which focuses on this very point.

I have fought to manufacture products in the mighty USA with little success. It all comes down to capacity and cost, or cost only depending on how large the company is and what product is being manufactured. Vietnam has become a hotbed for textile manufacturing in recent years, so expect to see that on the labels of your hunting packs and clothing. I guess I'm getting into a whole different topic here...

Let me add a point about "field testing" here. One fact that you must consider with regard to getting user feedback - most companies, if they do it at all, do it WAY too late in the development cycle. User validation around usability, performance, size, button layouts, and the details that are a vital component of the User Experience must occur very early, and often. It's not design-by-committee, rather it is about given real end-users a chance to share their gripes about existing solutions and offer their ideas and thoughts to inform the development of new solutions. The key word is "inform".

Field Testing gear for magazines or other organizations is little more that seeking good press. How many bad reviews have you read by hunters? Who's going to write an objective review when they are given the product to keep? Maybe this is hitting a little too close to home but the fact is, unless a publication or company is willing to let the chips fall where they may, then the whole effort is pointless - if the goal is to help the average Joe make an informed decision about where to spend his/her hard-earned money. And in today's economy, this is no time to be duping readers or hunters with tainted information.

Take that or leave it but its the truth. The stated outcome of any field testing or product review should be clearly understood by the audience and/or participants.

Cheers!
Tom Ryle
http://pnwbowhunting.blogspot.com/

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from Jere Smith wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

And anyway,I usually shoot no more than 250 yards
still like my 30 year old Leupold :)

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from Walt Smith wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

What a lot of our fellow hunters don't realize is when you sight in dead on at 250 yards at the range the ground is what? Flat! When you are hunting afield you can be 5-10 feet above or below an animal and it might only look like 2-3 feet! Thats something your $2000.00 super duper rangefinder lighted reticle 3X9X 50mm scope won't compute!!

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from Zermoid wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

"Who's going to write an objective review when they are given the product to keep?"

I do, I'm a lifetime member of the North American Hunting Club, and when I get a piece of useless garbage I tell them so. Worst thing I ever got from them was a shotgun shell designed to clean out a plugged or fouled barrel, you put it in and fire it and a BB with a string attached shoots out the muzzle, actually had enough force to blow out thru the caked mud I jammed in the barrel as a test. (Didn't happen to have snow at the time so I used what was available)

Now up to this point all was fine and dandy, it went downhill real fast after that.

You are supposed to be able to pull the string to which a cleaning and oiling wad are attached out of the barrel taking any crud with it and leaving the barrel pristine and oiled for storage. BULLSH*T.

IF you had a very heavy pair of leather work gloves you 'might' be able to pull it out by hand, but the GD string (it reminded me of part of the core of a para cord, ONE of the strands mind you) cuts right into a pair of standard nylon ski type gloves in short order. I ended up wrapping the string around the handle of my knife to pull the thing up to the choke, where the string broke.
Luckily it left enough string to wrap the knife handle again and after some cussing and swearing and straining the POS finally did make it out.
Unfortunately also leaving some mud stains still in the barrel. Good enuf to continue hunting if you had fell and shoved the muzzle in the ground but I could have done just as well with a pen knife and a handkerchief on a stick. And with alot less effort to boot!

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from MLH wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Ah, you just need a teenager at home to interpret it for you and make you even grumpier. Just imagine if it was translated from Chinese.

Interesting timing in that I am going through this very thing right now. The instruction manuals aren't necessarily written by engineers, though thy often start that way. At least our management has the common sense to pay a third party (the ones that actually use the manuals) to go through them to ensure they are usable.

The products themselves? Well, some things get released before their time. Got to get the cash flow going for the investors after all - figure they can make it better on the second or third iteration. Honda and Toyota used to kick the US automakers' butts by getting it right the first time. Complacency? Or Wall Street/Nikkei? Your choice.

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from Tom Ryle wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Zermoid,

Good for you for telling it how it is!

Good hunting,
Tom

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from SD Bob wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

This year I bought a new fish finder because the company alledged it could tell me if a fish was sitting on the bottom of if a log lay there plus I just wanted a new one. The damn thing takes a million button pushes to execute what should be a simple command! I'm thinking I need to throw it in the river and start bank fishing with the timeless technology of hook, sinker and chunk of worm!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

I remember that day, to get the contraption working I had to go through every page line by line and found the answer buried in gibberish neither Latin or Greek totally unknown language!

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from dale freeman wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

yOU WOULD BE DOING US A FAVOR IF YOU NAMED NAMES.
SOMETIMES SOME OF US MIGHT HAVE TO ORDER SOMETHING WITHOUT TRYING IT OUT. MORE, OR LESS, BY COMPANY NAME.
KNOW WHAT i MEAN "Vern.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Carney

Might as well get his thump right up front and get it over with... LOL

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from dale freeman wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

We get from all sides.
How about all the "hoopla" on the boattail.

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from FirstBubba wrote 3 years 36 weeks ago

I dunno Clay. I've had some pretty crappy gear and had a really good day.
Had a handmade turkey call that sounded like a rat with it's foot hung in a wringer! Called in two birds at one time.
Had a bow reel that was basically a plastic drinking glass screwed to the front of my bow. Fishing arrow was a field tip with a hole drilled in it and a piece of fishhook for a barb. It worked and I had a blast.

You don't need a Rolls to get to the dance! You just gotta know how to dance!!

Bubba

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from Jere Smith wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Del, I shindigs, there always WAY overcrowded you can't get near any of the counters to see what they are trying to sell, so I like to go there on Wednesdays because that is usually the slowest day a cna going grabit,bagit and tag it and GTF outta there.

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from Jere Smith wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

never go to those shindigs!! sheesh dang thing dropper words again! &%^$#@

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from Raygun15E wrote 3 years 35 weeks ago

Clay is spot on with the F-15 manuals. The -1 is thick, but pretty easy to read and understand. However, there are over 4 of those thick manuals that go along with that plane. Sometimes simple is much more useful and enjoyable to use.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 3 years 37 weeks ago

Thanks for coming on this blog promoting your own blogsphere and hijacking this thread.

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