Winchester Model 12?

Perhaps one of the best piece of equipment ever made!

Amen!

My Dad had great affinity for a Franchi 48 in 12 GA that he acquired in the mid 60's. It was an improved cylinder and I saw him kill ducks, quail, doves, rabbits and squirrels with it. He shot 3 1/4 - 1 1/4 - 7.5's for upland game and 3 3/4 - 1 1/4 - 6's for ducks. With it he was the shot gunner’s equivalent to the grim reaper. When he hit his 60's I asked him why he still shot the hard kicking lite shotgun and he replied as your friend did Dave. His answer, "Because it does everything I ask it to son."

No doubt that the Win Model 12 is a good gun, but I have long preferred the Rem 870 esp the one I got in 1963 as a teenager, have had more in other gauges and finishes since, but the first is still the best. I do believe it has been in production for approx 60 yrs and over 6 million made. That should speak for something.

Amen. I don't even know what I'm looking at with today's trap guns. They're like something from 'Star Trap' err 'Trek'. They say "beware the man with one gun". How about "beware the man with the normal looking gun"?

Looking forward to Bourjaily's rifle post - in addition to the previous one.

My Father shot AAA with a Model 12, wasn't High Class but I remember Dad winning alot of 1st Place with it.

Used it for trap & skeet including hunting anything that flew or ran from rabbits to coyotes to deer to quail and dove to ducks and geese and He done it all just as good as any other with his Model 12!

I do remember Dad doing something with His Model 12 I haven't seen or nobody has I know of, riding it as a Pogo Stick shooting a rattle snake between his legs on January 1st exactly at 12 noon! That morning, we were busting up to 1/2" ice hunting ducks, you would never thought of snakes that day!

My son shot his 870 in a youth trap league and bested the other high schoolers who shot much better guns.
He out shoots me in the dove fields so I think it comes down to you can or you can't or your close.

Winchester Model 12 reminds me of an old ford pickup

Sayfu, if a competitive shooter loses his hat on a boat ride, does he just stop the boat and walk out and pick it up?

I'm smiling as I type, by the way.

We all know the Model 12 is so darn good, why doesn't Winchester start making them again?

I shot skeet last week for the first time in years. I used an old Rem 1100 with no vent rib and mod choke. My shooting ability is as accurate as a fortune cookie but I did pretty well that night shooting almost as good as the competition shooters at the range. After busting both of my birds on station 8 (blind luck and good coaching from my buddies) one of the guys holding an unGodly expensive gun said "Wanna trade?"

I'm done bragging now.

If Dave was holding one of those trap abominations I want a picture. Cash on delivery...

About 45 years ago I found myself at Seymour Johnson Air Force Base with little money and a Ted Williams 20 ga. shotgun with a full choke barrel. My buddy said we would go to the rod and gun club. I didn't know what skeet was but I shot many rounds of skeet with that little 20 ga. with a full choke barrel. I'm not saying I was great but I got fairly good at breaking those little round things. Later on I did get a better suited gun but the little 20 taught me alot about wing shooting.
Tthere were alot of North Carolina doves that fell prey tto that little 20 also. Wasn't too bad for a boy from the hills of WV who had never heard of skeet or shooting at a dove.

Sounds like one hell of a shooter. I hope his kids have an appreciation for the gun as well as his talents.

Dad won a few shoots with his M12. I still have it and use it for everything. It's been noted that guys in a slump with their O/Us and semi-autos would go back to their M12s until they got back into the groove.

K.I.S.S. Yep, "keep it simple soldier." My black hat "mentioned" that to me at 19.

The best shotgun I ever used (borrowed it) was a Remington 1100. I wish I owned it.

The first time I ever shot a round of trap was in 1993 when I was 43 and broke all 25 with my Browning Grade III Citori with 26 inch barrels. The choke tube used was full if memory serves. Beekeeper tore some pheasants up with that same gun last fall. Got bored with trap long ago. Nowdays if anything I shoot a few rounds of skeet with my 28 guage Beretta. Usually shoot in the high 20's using improved cylinder and modified with 3/4 oz reloads.

I've never understood all the adjustments myself either. Get a quality gun, get it fitted to you and shoot. Like you said if you have a bad day it's you not the gun. With all the adjustments I would be worried about messing with what's working. I think this is even more important for light trap shooters who primarily use clays as practice for hunting. Don't bring a gun to the range that you aren't going to hunt with. Bring your bird gun. That's the one you want to be able to hit with.

Santa brought a Model 12 in '57, the stock was already shortened to fit me. Field grade, modified choke. It has always been my "go to" shotgun. Why I seem to shoot better with this one than all the others is one thing...
CONFIDENCE. It still has the shortened stock, does everything within reason and everytime I pick it up it still feels as good as it did that Christmas morning.

I think I have mentioned before that my neighbor often shoots trap one handed with his Beretta 390 field grade just to pixx off the Perazzi shooters. The interesting part is that he often surpasses 20 time after time with an occassional 25. He just holds the gun out with arm fully extended like a pistol and calls for the clay pigeon. I don't know what is more entertaining, watching him shoot or checking out the grimaces of the guys who are on the range every day. I have got to make a video of this some time.

Del in KS,
I'll give you $300 any day for your Model 12. I've got a 12 gauge that looks like it's been used to drive fence posts, but it still shoots whatever you point it at, heavy though.
My other Model 12's, 20 gauge made in 1928 is a joy to carry all day, and a 16 made in 1922 that shoots as hard as any 12 with 2-3/4 shells.
Good design, stood the test of time for many.
Still kicking myself for missing out on buying a Model 42 years ago, he wanted $225, I tried to steal it for $200. Then he and it left town, never seen again.
johnl

Why flinch? Either the shotgun goes "bang" or it does not. No, it won't maim or hurt you wusses.
I sold all my shotguns but two. They fit me. They shoot where I point. Like a scope on a rifle.

If you use a shotgun that doesn't fit you, you're a fool.

JohnL if you are serious contact the editors to forward an E-mail to me. The gun was made in 1942, has 28 in. barrel and solid rib. Has been reblued and the action is slick and does not rattle. My dealer can ship to yours. The gun is on consignment at a gunshop right now.

Tom-Tom..Never knew of a release for that purpose, but can understand it. I grew up in Ohio, and very close to FenWood, that was a big shooting complex outside of Bellevue, OH that is an interesting story in itself as to what went on there. I knew of Vandelia, OH as well, and a family friend shot annually at the Grand Nationals in Vandalia. And Amflyer, I would think the competitive shooter would want an advantage...he'd put on his inflatable, wide bottomed, oversized ski boots, before he went overboard to get his hat.

Anybody remember the original abombination, the Ljutic Monogun? (pardon spelling)

See the ball. Hit the ball.

Nicely done.

Clay shooters can be Psychos! When I shot out at the club, there was a top notch shooter that had a number of good guns. If he missed a target you might see him later with his gun laying up against the telephone pole at an angle, and he'd be stomping on the gun trying to bend the barrel some!...the miss couldn't possibly have been because of him.

Amen!!

Hmmm,.
I always liked the corn cobb forend on the 12.
as ity seemed sufficant and avoided pointless bulk.
Which means,. always wondered why the forend of the 870 was big enough for "Grape Ape" to get hand full.
I wear size XL gloves,. so my mitt isnt small.
IE: no real probelm with 870 forend.

HOWEVER if I knew there was an after market ( corn cobb type ) forend available for an 870 (or four:)
I would consider a change on at least one.
If for no other reason than to see how it affected handling and balance.
Might look a tad better too.

Sayfu -- My shooting mentor was a professional trap shooter. He had a Browning O/U with a release trigger for the sole purpose of shooting doubles as it made for a much smoother transition to the second bird in his case. Intense on the line is putting it somewhat mildly IMO, especially at the Grand American when you're playing your options. I spent many an hour reloading shells for him and working in his trap house while he and his fellow pro's dusted everything from the back line.

Generally: The Model 12 was a nightmare to produce. I think if you could get a decent one out the factory door today for $1,500 you'd be doing very well. Also, the reason doesn't bring it back is the same reason Savage doesn't bring back the rotary-magazine 99--too many of them out there already.

Back in the early 70s I met Ned Lilly, who shot his way into the ATA Hall of Fame with a Model 12 (as did many others). He said he had put a million rounds through his gun, and he had the records to prove it.

WA Mtnhunter: So would I!

Yup good post

I have ( a number of ) scatter guns..
Can do pretty good with most of em but.
The one I shoot best is post WWII high ( square ) back Remington liscensed to duplicat brownings,square back Dont recall model but no rib no choke tubes ( full choke brrel)
Shot my first everything ( except deer) with that gun
goose rabbit squirrel pheasant etc .
Its older than me,.. but its in better shape yuk yuk
I shoot that one best because it fits .
If it fits most people shoot better .

Clay ,. as much as I hate and fear snakes ( just hate em ) last thing I expected was to ease out on a rock outcropping facing south and see a timber rattler
as big around as the thick part of my fore arm ( which is about 15- 16 inches ) sunning itself.
This was durring the Wisconsin November deer season. Thought I was seeing things at first,., but when it moved so did I ,.about 10 ft in one hop,.. Jaaaysus
This ocurred in what is known as the Baraboo Bluffs in Southern wISCONSIN about 20 years ago.
Low 20's first thing in the morning,. high 20's when I saw the serpent,. but warmer on that rock.

BOOM !!

Clay, that is a very good question! I suspect a newly-manufactured Model 12 with milled parts would cost well in excess of $1,000. With the plethora of shotgunners choosing semi-autos and doubles these days, I wonder if a new Model 12 even would sell well enough to keep the model afloat! Interesting point though...

Wondered the same thing myself Coop!
Now, consider this.
The original Mod 12's final assembly was done by hand! Bits and pieces (action slide lock for one!) had to be honed and fitted. It wasn't just slung together with stamped out parts!
What would be your guestimate on final price in today's economy!?
I'd say somewhere in the $2500 range! Just a bit pricy for a pump gun!
Some chastised Ollie for only using 1 slide arm instead of two, ala 870 Rem. Said it made slide action weak and had a tendency to bind!
Don't know when the original was put to rest(final assembly year!) but know they built some in the late 70's that are know as "Y series" as there is a Y in the serial number. If I'm not mistaken, the Y series was made in a "Trap" edition and a "Field Grade Trap".

Bubba

Bubba

Bernie

I had the distinct pleasure of owning a "Y" series. Oddly, it handled better than any shotgun I ever owned, before or since.(for me! it just fit!) Unfortunately, a dip in the oil market in the late 80's dictated that it be turned into food and clothing for children! LOL!!

Bubba

John L I have a mint 1949 Model 42 but you know how it goes, it would require another zero on the price you quoted from the earlier guy to buy it from me today. I too have many regrets concerning guns I either turned down or sold for what was a good price 30 years ago but is a pittance today.

Dr. Ralph--I suspect you are referring to a 16 gauge, which in the early years was chambered for 2-9/16" shells. I am not aware of any Model 12s being chambered for 2-1/2" shells, but if I am mistaken, someone please corrent me.

Dave, you make some good points. Winchester produced almost two million Model 12s and most of them still are in use. The ones that are not were abused and neglected. Your story about Ned Lilly and the million shells he put through a Model 12 further dispells the claims I have heard from a couple windy characters who said they "wore out a Model 12."

There might be liability issues with the Model 12, too. Peter Capstick used to shoot his by holding the trigger back and working the slide hard; the shotgun would fire when it went into battery. When an angry, wounded leopard would rush him from close range he could fill the air with lead as fast as he could work the slide. Good for Peter, but in today's legal climate, any gun that goes off without the shooter getting on his knees and begging it to fire, after showing it all the proper release forms, would be unimaginable.

I had a friend who I duck hunted with, and he never missed. Our hunting group had guys with Browning 10 Guages and Benellis but this guy could outshoot them. He would have made any ethical hunter cringe, because I saw him kill ducks with pass shots that were 70-80 yards away. He did it with an old worn out 870 and cheap steel shotgun shells. He was just in tune with what he could make his gun do.

Yohan,
I too liked the "corn cob" forward grip. Just a great design.
Only thing I had a problem with was the "ahead of the trigger guard" safety. About froze my index finger off as a kid, as dad would not let us even think about wearing a glove on a trigger finger. Walk a corn field with your finger stuck out there when it's below freezing.
Clay Cooper, yep, Model 12 WAS/IS like an old Ford pickup, couldn't kill it.
As much as I like the 870, and I do, it's a cheaper, weak feeling imitation of the Model 12. Good gun, lower price, NOT as good.

Whoever this idiot on here is trying to sell shoes or whatever, can you ban him please?

Wish that spammer would get diarhea and the drawing paralysis would draw his rectum up to his nose and keep it there.

tpbesone. That is what I do now..shoot trap prior to bird hunting season...BUT..I am a constant adjustment guy. I go in streaks where I break my arm patting myself on the back, and then can't hit much....back to the drawing board, and making adjustments. Baseball players, and other athletes go through it..the "in the zone" thing, and then out of it. Golfers ride the good times for as long as they can, and then they lose it. Mental is a big part of performance. That is why you see pros not getting too exuberant when things go well, and not down when things go bad. They try to keep it on the level, and stay focused for best all around performance. How many pro golfers use the same putter for a long period of time. They change grips, clubs, all to improve their mental approach not unlike shotgunners.