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Shoot Me Down: Speed Kills

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September 16, 2011

Shoot Me Down: Speed Kills

By Dave Hurteau

Bowhunters who pooh-pooh arrow velocity are fond of saying, “Speed doesn’t kill.” They reference the slow-but-deadly bows of yesteryear as proof. The term “kinetic energy” gives them a terrible rash.

They are right to a point. Deer are not hard to kill. A knitting needle at 200 fps would probably do the job if perfectly aimed. But there’s the rub. Some arrows are not perfectly aimed in the real world of bowhunting. While additional kinetic energy and momentum may be wasted on a double-lung pass-through, you’ll do well to have more of them should you hit the front shoulder, the spine, or God forbid the ham. And speed gives you that.

I like to shoot one pin out to 30 yards. With a moderately fast bow, I can do that with a 375-grain arrow, all set up to hunt. But with a smoking fast bow, I can do it with a 425-grain arrow, sporting a heavier broadhead, which boosts momentum for better penetration when needed.

Take a look at this photo. I shot these two arrows at 30 yards using a Bowtech Invasion CPX, the second-fastest bow in Bestul’s recent test and the prize in our current scoring contest. The top arrow carries a 100-grain head, the bottom a 125. The point of impact is almost the same; so there’s no reason not to use the heavier head, which as you can see above has a larger cutting diameter. (At 40 yards, by the way, the difference is only about 2 inches.) On a flubbed shot, which we all know is possible, the extra momentum and the bigger head could easily make the difference.

Besides it’s not just about killing deer but killing them quickly and recovering them. Last fall, I shot a buck right under my stand through the back and out the chest/belly. My heavy arrow plowed right through, giving me a decent blood trail. I hit a buck in roughly the same place several years ago with a light arrow that did not pass through, leaving me no blood at all (I was lucky to find him).

If you don’t like speed because it encourages some archers to fling light arrows at game from ungodly ranges, I can see that. But speed also lets you shoot a heavier arrow while giving next to nothing up in trajectory at normal ranges. And that can lead to more and quicker kills.

So there you have it. Speed kills. Stand with me or shoot me down. Whoever makes the best argument pro or con will be invited to spew his own brand of nonsense right here as my guest.

Comments (51)

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from luke_striegel wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I am shocked by the difference in penetration. I have always used 100 grain. If I move to a larger broadhead (125 grain), do I need to move to a larger grain arrow as well to keep the accuracy?

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Careful, Luke,
Don't use this photo to gauge penetration--because the target you're looking at is three yeas old and has some soft spots. You can see that the place where the top arrow hit has material missing from previous use. This photo is just meant to show how close the point of impact is between the two heads.

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from steve182 wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

My last couple hunting bows got about 260fps with my hunting arrow. My new one about 300. I am amazed at the penetration on a near new Block target...buries the fletchings every time. The flatter trajectory allows fewer pins and the speed will make it harder for a deer to duck the string. I was perfectly happy with the killing capability of the slower bows but perhaps i didn't know what i was missing. We'll see in couple weeks i hope.

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from idduckhntr wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Dave I shoot a Mission X3 set at 60# shooting Easton 400 carbon storms with Muzzy MX3 100gr broad heads I like my shots at 35 but have practiced at 40 should I be worried about penetration? I dont want this to sound wrong because I have yet to shoot a deer with a bow just looking for some insite.

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from bowman77 wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

The picture doesn't necessarily hold true for your argument. One picture does not tell the hole story. Just looking at the picture, it looks like the top arrow penetrated a more worn out area of the target which would allow for further penetration. The top arrow is sitting anchored in a large hole. I would like to see this down with a new target that has never been fired at. As far as speed, the advantage is certainly the fact that it will allow a hunter to be off on distance and still hit the vital area. Most bows these days will shoot (real hunting scenarios, not stripped down, shoot the lightest arrow possible ibo speeds) around 275-280 FPS with some exceptions of top speed bows. Shooting a heavier arrow with these set-ups is going to provide superb pass through penetration just as much as a speed bow that may have a shorter brace height, allowing for less accuracy. In addition, how easily can you draw a bow like this in a situation when you have been sitting on stand in 20 degree weather all morning and your muscles freeze up? A 55-60lb draw weight on a standard flagship bow, shooting a heavier arrow, will pass through a white tail time and time again. The new bows are so much more efficient these days and can do twice the work with half the effort of older models. What I am getting at is, why do you really need a speed bow when a very high percentage of hunters shoot their deer with a bow at 15-25 yards, and sometimes 30. No matter how fast your bow is, a deer has a lot of time to react to a shot at 40 yards, even with the fastest bows. I would much rather have a bow that draws back with little effort and I can hold for a long long time in any condition, than a bow that may or may not have a smooth draw, but regardless if its poundage is set at 65- or 70lbs, the average hunter will not be able to hold and draw as smoothly as they can with a draw weight of 55-60 lbs. Accuracy is more important than anything. Even though a speed bow may be more accurate at 40 yards even 30, I more concerned about the 90% of shots I take at 15-20 yards in which I can draw the bow like a butter and hold as long as I need when that deer get's hung up before entering the next shooting lane; and know that that arrow will still make a pass through shot with little effort.

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from luke_striegel wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Thank you Dave, sorry for a silly question. Idduck, I shoot the exact same set up and have not had a problem. Last year I shot a doe at 42 yds and she went down within 10 yds. Shot placement is key, but 42 yds was pushing it.

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

idduckhntr,
You should be in fine fettle with that setup. I believe the IBO on the X3 is about 310--pleny, plenty, plenty fast. To be clear, I'm not saying anyone needs to run out and get a faster bow--or go up to a 125 grain head. I'm just saying that speed has some significant advantages.
Bowman77,
Please see my comment above yours.

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from Kris24 wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Yes, speed kills!!! Bowman77, this article is not about shooting farther. It is about the times when we miss the exact spot we are aiming at and hit shoulder bone, back bone, etc. etc. Bow hunting is all about shot placement and if you never miss the spot you are aiming at you wont have a problem. However, this is bow hunting and Murphy's law is always out to get you. There will be times when you miss your key spot and, it will be at that time, you will wish that you had the speed to deliver the foot pounds necessary to drive on through the area that you did hit to get to the vitals....speed gives you that and therefore speed does, indeed, kill!

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from ilikehunting wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Dave, are those Montec G5's? I used those last year and liked them quite a bit..Also I never got a hat from y'all WAAAAAYYY back in the day when I finished in the top 10 of a caption contest during Cabela's anniversary thing.Not a big deal...but are those the G5's?

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from jbird wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I'm not sure if the "confidence" that a fast arrow gives the hunter outweighs the fact that alot of guys end up flinging arrows at game wayyy farther out than they should. Just at thought.

Dave, I'm having shoulder surgery in 2 weeks so in hope of trying to salvage my bow season, (It runs from 9/15-1/15 in MO) I went to my local shop and had the draw on my Reflex Growler backed off from 67# down to 53#. Praying that by November I can draw the lesser weight. My question is ; before I sight it in with my 100gr. Muzzy's, do you think I should get some 125gr.'s to give me a little more penetration since my bow will no longer be shooting "blazing fast"??

Any thoughts/info you or any other bowhunters who've shot with pull weights in the 50's would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

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from CAT22 wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Ur making an arguement FOR weight, Dave, momentum... not speed. I'm confused. You say speed kills but you bump up your weight giving you more "momentum". You say the extra weight is a benefit on poor shots and U are right. If speed kills, then don't worry about weight. Whats the difference if speed kills? U will still get better penetration from a slower arrow weighing more on borderline shots than you will with a lighter, faster arrow. Sounds like you are shooting yourself down so I don't have to.

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from Kris24 wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Speed and weight go hand in hand when calculating foot pounds of energy. Dave's point is you can get a faster shooting bow and add more weight to it and shoot just as far as you could with the slower bow and less weight. The engergy (foot pounds) will go up if you increase either speed or weight. When increasing weight only though your speed drops, off setting any gain you would get in engergy by increasing the weight. When increasing speed only you generate more energy and the foot poundage goes up. What Dave is saying is if you have a faster bow you can shoot a heavier object faster and maintain the distance that the slower bow with a lighter arrow would be able to achieve. The key here is the speed. If you increase speed you get more engergy. If you increase weight you can potentially get more engergy as long as you dont lose speed. You have to have the speed!!!

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Ike,
Yup, G5 Montecs. One of the guys at Cabela's saw your post and just emailed me saying he'll get you that. So one of us will be contacting you.
jbird,
In your case, the 125s may make too big a difference in trajectory. There's no simple answer. (How far do you feel comfortable shooting? How many pins to you use? What does your arrow weigh, etc.)
CAT,
I'm saying that one of the advantages of speed is that you can go to a heavier arrow without taking a huge hit in terms of how flat the bow shoots. But anyway you slice it, more speed means more kenitic engery (1/2 mass x velocity squared) and momentum (mv).

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Sorry,
Ilike, not Ike

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from Sanjuancb wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Speed does kill...with a bullet. Broadheads don't deform. They kill by piercing vital organs or through blood loss. Speed, while handy, really doesn't have much to do with that. Those people who shoot exceptionally light arrows in order to gain more kinetic energy and a flatter trajectory don't understand the big picture. The kinetic energy formula is biased in favor of speed because velocity is squared in it. However, that is irrelevant because it is not the energy itself that kills but the disruption of vital functions.

What really counts is shot placement and penetration.

Light-for-poundage arrows vibrate more and are harder on the bow itself. Usually they are slightly underspined and are hard to tune. A heavier arrow makes sense because of decrease vibration (wasted energy) and increased penetration (because of greater momentum). By looking at measures of momentum where are better able to understand penetration.

Finally, the design of a broadhead also has a great deal to do with penetration. Ask yourself this question, would you shoot a full-grown bull elk with a 45 lb. bow and light arrows? Probably not. Despite this, thick-skinned big game are killed by the bushel basket every year by traditional archers using similar poundage bows, heavy arrows, and two-blade broadheads.

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from jbird wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Thanks Dave. I think I'll stick with the 100gr's and keep my shots to 30 yards or less.

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from Blue Ox wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I think I need a new bow... :)

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from chuckles wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Speed thrills, accuracy kills.
Also wouldn't hurt if you stop using it as an excuse to take marginal shots like straight down.

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from huntinhuntinhuntin wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

This was a very informational piece for me, a fourth year bow hunter.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Never got into that what weight the arrow is stuff, but I can say this. My 28" Gold-Tip 5575 with a 3 blade Muzzy 100 grain at 310 fps out of my HCA 4Runner blows right through whitetails at 50 yards!

GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME!

And I'm still waiting for someone to convince me I should trade in that 12 year old bow!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

One more thing, the faster arrow that retains its speed, the flatter the trajectory!

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Sanjuancb,
Well argued. Yes, what counts in shot placement and penetration. And I'm suggesting that speed helps with both. It lets me go heavier, which increases momentum for better penetration, while maintaining a fairly flat trajectory, which helps with shot placement.
I could go heavier without speed, but the looping trajectory will make shot placement more difficult.
What's more, a really fast bow will shoot a heavier arrow FASTER than a slow bow will shoot a lighter arrow--in which case everything favors the fast bow: more KE, more momentum, and flatter trajectory, again increasing penetration and making shot placement easier.

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from Walt Smith wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

You kids and your speed kills make me laugh! I've been using the same old bow, a Fred Bear Polar II that I bought used from a friend back in 89 for 60.00. I shoot Beeman 31" 340's with Muzzy 100 grain broadheads with a release, a High Country two arm spring rest and a Pollington red dot scope. I've killed 26 deer with this bow and the last six I've killed with the same stupid arrow, which I retired this year. This bow maybe generates 250 feet per second. Speed don't mean diddley squat! My longest shot was 20 yds. Accuracy,getting close and releasing the arrow when the deer isn't on high alert status is the only thing that matters. Speed is just a marketing ploy for those who don't know any better!

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I knew you'd like this one, Walt.
My next post: "Speed Doesn't Kill, Walt Does."
And what the heck you doing up so late?
Unlike us kids who don't know any better, geezers like you need your rest.
(You know I'm joking, Walt.)

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from shane wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

You title it speed kills, then you go on to tell us to use a heavier arrow and a heavier head. Seems like you reversed your position, though I can't say I disagree with your points. I was about to have a field day, thinking you were about to tell us to to maximize arrow speed at all costs.

Speed is good until you start using light arrows and light heads to get speed. Your speed should come from your bow, but no matter how fast your bow is, I recommend a 125 grain broadhead (At least 100. 85 for deer? Come on.), and an arrow that has enough spine to push it. Ask the recurve guys. Recurves are pretty darn slow compared to a modern compound, but they're all using heavy heads, some up to 220 grains. This is because weight and weight forward are the keys to good penetration. Not just speed alone.

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from mwmrtn wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I agree w/Walt accuracy and getting close are the keys!Who cares how fast your arrow is,you hit that shoulder bone w/ an errant shot you ain't killin that deer! Being proficient w/ your hunting rig is paramount.I watched these Outdoor shows like Bowmadness the other week and they show a guy shootin a whopper/record book antelope at 35/45yrd range from a ground blind and he hit square in the ass/ham as the animal was gettin ready to leave/spookin!I would have been embarassed!Then to top it off, put it in your feature "I shot it w/ My PSE".Made me sick! I never seen so many gut shots/ unethical shots taken on animals than on these types of shows and I blame these bow companys for giving these so called hunters a false sense of confidence that I can shoot out to 60/70 yards most can't even draw on animal w/o gettin busted plus they are huntin on properties most of us only dream about!! Back to the speed kills topic?! Total BS!!

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from IceClash wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

In rifles speed does not kill, though it makes it easier to hit, in bows, speed does not kill but an arrow isn't exactly good for killing anyways. If its about challenging yourself with range constraints, pick buckshot or iron sights but please for the sake of a clean kill, leave your pointy sticks at home

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Im gonna shoot you down like you never been shot down before!
Yes speed helps you hit where you aim at longer ranges. But inside realistic bow ranges arrow speed does not make that much of a difference at all. Not enough to result in not finding a game animal if you put your time in practicing.
But here is where I am really going to get you. Its all about the efficiency of your setup and getting the most out of your bow. (To find the efficiency factor of your bow and arrow setup you need take your KE and divide it by your draw weight)
Now lets say you are shooting 5 grains per pound out of a 64# bow. Arrow weight of 320 grains.
Lets say this bow averages 277.5 fps for 5 shots through a chrono. (Dave, if your bow is at 70#s you will be in between 5 and 6 grains per pound, so your numbers could be translated to this group for the comparison.)
Your KE is 54.5 ft/lbs
Your Efficiency is .851

Now same bow as above but shooting 9 grains per pound. 576 grain arrow at 214 fps.
Your KE will be 58.5 ft/lbs
Efficiency factor will be .914

Now I guess I will through MO into the mix now…
MO out of the 5 grains per pound setup is .393
MO out of the 9 grains per pound setup is .547

Now the KE is not that far apart from each other but the in the MO category there is a huge difference.

Now about that Efficiency factor…
Why would you want to shoot a lighter arrow and not get the most killing power out of your bow? Most of todays bows efficiency will top out at about 9 or 10 grains per pound. Giving you the most penetration and I can almost guarantee you will always get a pass through weather you ware shooting deer or elk or whatever animal you are hunting.

Now all these number I got I used my cell phones calculator so If they are wrong please correct me. But the proof is in the numbers… Speed doesn’t kill, it just helps in yardage misjudgments. I will take my heavy arrows any day because I know I am going to get 2 holes in a deer no matter what the shot angle is, this will result in much quicker blood loss leading to the animal going down faster. Ive tracked my buddys deer he shoot with “light and fast” arrows for to long… But since then I got him to switch to heavy arrows, he has never had a problem since the switch. His bloodtrails have been wide and short…

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Wow I wrote a lot, sorry for the long read.

Some people say I make bow hunting to complicated, but bow hunting is hard. And when I have that buck ive been after all season at 20 yards quartering away, Im da*n sure gonna make sure I have the power to make it through him! Not just stick him with a carbon straw!

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

lovetohunt,
Good stuff. You're the clear leader, so far.
But I'm not sure you've shot me down. What I'm saying is that the extra speed generated by a fast bow allows you to use a HEAVIER arrow, without sacrificing a lot in terms of trajectory. I'm coming at the speed argument from the opposite angle most speed guys do: They says, "Use a faster bow and a lighter arrow to get super-flat trajectory." I say, "Use a faster bow and a heavier arrow to get the same trajectory--and better penetration."

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Dave,
Well I don’t think how anyone possibly could shoot you down with the argument of "Use a faster bow and a heavier arrow to get the same trajectory--and better penetration."
It makes the most logical sense. You get the same trajectory as a slower bow with a lighter arrow. Thus nothing changes except for your KE, MO, and Efficiency going up! The end result of that is just total devastation on deer.
But, a lot of today’s fast bows don’t have a very good draw cycle compared to a bow that is made to be smooth like an Elite Z28 or Hunter. And when its 20 degrees out and you have been on stand for 3 hours a smooth drawing bow is easier to draw back without as much movement as compared to a speed bow. The speed bows have a lower brace height (giving them a longer power stroke to get that speed) but the lower the brace height in general means less forgiving and rougher draw cycle. And when that buck is at 20 yards, I want it smooth shooting and forgiving. But, I will say the fast bow’s draw cycles have greatly improved over the years. And with today’s technology it allows Bowtech to make your Invasion shoot as fast as it does with a 7” brace.
To me a 7” or more brace height means a very nice, forgiving hunting bow. Heck it even makes a great all around bow. But at the end of the day I want is slow, because slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. Give me an arrow at around 8 or 9 grains per pound and smooth cams with a 7 or more inch brace height.
For example I think we can all agree that the Mathews Switchback XT has arrowed more game animals then pretty much every bow to this date. And there is a good reason for this, it is so smooth and forgiving. Most guys still won’t get rid of their SBXT because of that 7.5” brace height and smooth, round cam. And the IBO rating on that bow is 315 fps.

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from RES1956 wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Pancea would be a big, heavy arrow/broadhead going 300 fps. Bone crushing energy and momentum retained well at 40+ yards. Personally, I am not going to shoot farther than about 30 and usually don't pick up my bow until they are that close or closer, so an ultra flat trajectory is not paramount with me.
But, yes, I guess speed kills, for amateurs who can't get close enough.

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from shane wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

You should change the title to "Fast Bows are Awesome". Saying "speed kills" makes it sound like you're a light arrow light broadhead FPS counter that doesn't understand how an arrow kills or that IBO numbers shouldn't be achievable with a hunting setup.

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from GuyGene wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Oh me - I don't even own a bow yet, but see my costs going up! I guess I will try to go with old Walt in his above post. I'm probably more of a geezer than he is! What I mean by going with him, is I'll just keep try to my conservative nature, and take careful, close shots when I can finally afford to get a bow and begin my bow hunting. I have no problem passing up shots with my rifle and shotgun, so I am not worrying about taking long shots. My goal is to get very accurate out to 30 yards - I know that is a fairly long shot with a bow, but so far I have been able to shoot that far with borrowed bows.

Thanks for this information, Dave. All the bows I have looked at so far shoot at about 300 fps. Only problem is I am such a traditionalist that I am really leaning to a recurve...

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

lovetohunt,
Now you're talking. Those are indeed the typical drawbacks. But some fast bows are better shooting than others. I tested a couple of insanely fast models a couple years ago that I wouldn't dream of hunting with. If fact, I blew out my shoulder testing them. But the bow I'm shooting now is not a problem--and I'm only shooting about 64 pounds because my shoulder is still not quite right. But it's still fast.

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Shane,
The title was meant to be a little ironic. But I certainly see your point. If you want, next week I'll explain to anyone who doesn't understand why they shouldn't be shocked when their new bow doesn't actually shoot an arrow 343 feet per second.

Okay all. I'm off to a backcountry elk hunt for a week to, with some luck, see how my bow, arrows, and heads work on the real thing.

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from Walt Smith wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

What am I doing up so late? Skinning and quartering the two does I just killed in Michigan's early anterless hunt, thats what! I didn't shoot any deer with my rifle last year, I got them all with my bow. My rifle was acting jealous so I decided I'd better give it some action. Now I've got 2 deer in the fridge to clean and bow season hasn't even started yet, I've never been in this position before but I like it!! Interesting part was the 12 deer that were feeding in the field 100 yards from me 15 min. after I shot twice, didn't even phase them. Good luck on your elk hunt Dave!

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from Walt Smith wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Back to the article-- What is the real difference between a bow shooting 300 feet per second and a bow shooting 250 feet per second when the target is 20 yards (60 feet) away??? What, maybe 1-2 feet in impact distance? Maybe 2/100's of a second? Speed means nothing!

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from shane wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

The title really did throw me for a loop. Still itching at me a little.

That explanation might actually be necessary.

In any case, thank you for plugging arrow weight. It's good for hunters and good for the game.

Good luck on your elk hunt. Here's to getting a shot in the first place, and getting a clean pass through when you do. Sounds like you're destined to do so after this blog, to prove your point. I hope no elk "shoot you down".

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from pete5645 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

I agree that speed kills, but the heavier grain limits your distance greatly. I shot a buck 2 years ago (confidently) at 52 yds , 100 grain, pulling 68# with a clean pass through. I don't think I would have been able to make that shot comfortably with a 125 grain.

Also, Dave I never hat from the caption contest a while back as well. Not a big deal, but saw ilikehunting mention he had the same problem so I thought I would mention it.

Shoot Straight!

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from ejunk wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

at 20 yards, the difference in the time of flight between a 200 FPS and 300 FPS shot is 1/10th of a second (0.3 and 0.2 seconds, respectively). a 200 FPS broadside shot with a sharp broadhead will devastate a whitetail deer. Speed is nice, but it isn't as important as a lot of things, in my opinion. I think it's especially inadvisable to prioritize speed over, for example, fit and feel in hand, quality of draw, and hand shock when buying a bow. but, some people love big numbers - and there is a market for that!

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from bowman77 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

KRis24 worry for the late response. My apologies if I misunderstood the article. However, you are telling me that by shooting a fast bow and as heavy an arrow I can, I will now be penetrating should blades and backbones with my arrows if I am off the mark on my shot?? If someone is shooting on the extreme end of a lighter set-up I can see how penetration will not be as great. But don't tell me I my set-up can blast through shoulder blades and back bones now. We're still shooting arrows at whatever grains per inch at 300+ FPS, not 150 grains of lead at 2,000 FPS. Accuracy or not, whichever set-up allows you to draw comfortably and shoot accurately is the way a hunter should go. Now, I can see a point how faster bows help you eliminate distance judging errors at longer ranges, but not sure why shooting a heavier arrow matters? It you hit a vital spot, a heavier arrow will penetrate just as much as a lighter arrow through a rib cage. So if you want to tell me speed help accuracy, sure, I agree with that. You want to tell me shooting a heavier arrow is gonna make a difference on a well place shot or poor placed shot, not a chance.

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from RANGERMANZ20 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Dave I agree with you to the tee. After 30 years of bowhunting a fast bow with a heavier arrow and one pin is simple and highly effective. I set my pin at 30 yards and just adjust point of aim slightly to match distance. I shot a large Kansas Buck several years back from a stand at 35 yrds for some reason he hopped forward and i hit him in the back hip went through hip bones and stuck in a tree buck fell dead on the spot. There use to be a guy who did hunting vidios called i thank Ben Lee who was famous for making shots like that.

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from tuckerj5047 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

I would argue that speed does not kill, it helps kill better. Heavy arrows shooting fast have and retain more energy at long distances and through bone than light arrows shooting fast. A slightly misplaced shot in the shoulder is going to need that extra energy to penetrate. Shooting a longbow, I am not very concerned with speed as it is an almost unachievable thing with one. Because of the lack of energy from slow arrows I shoot a 200 grain head to add kinetic energy. Dr. Ed Ashby has done an extensive study on arrow lethality. His main conclusion is that arrows with a high percentage of its overall weight at the front have an exponential increase in penetration potential. His report can be found online, and is a great reference for setting up the most lethal arrow-broadhead combination.

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from eugenedarin wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

I enjoyed reading it. I need to read more on this topic...I admire time and effort you put in your blog, I often read at my work as a sales assistant at container transportation Turkey, because it is obviously one great place where I can find lot of useful info.

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from Smithhammer wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Yes, speed is part of the equation, but in my mind, largely due to the advertising machine, it has been emphasized WAY too much as the end-all-be-all. We all know 'fast is sexy, and sexy sells.' A reasonable amount of speed is important. But I'm shocked and dismayed at the lightweight arrows that are being thrown from many a hi-tec bow today. The mentality that 'speed is all that matters' demonstrates a profoundly simplistic understand of how archer, bow and arrow work together to be as deadly as possible. Weight, and momentum, are essential to quick kills, and anyone who thinks that a fast bow somehow makes that equation irrelevant, needs to take a basic physics course.

Shoot a bow of reasonable speed, by all means, but combine that with a heavy, cut-on-contact head on a well-tuned arrow, and you'll be amazed at the difference. And as mentioned above, read Dr. Ashby. If you haven't, don't take a shot at another live animal until you do.

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from Hunter55 wrote 2 years 28 weeks ago

Fast, slow, heavy, light don't get caught in all the talk. At the end of the day when your alone in your favorite stand, with the buck of a lifetime standing at 30 yards, all of these factors fade away. Success comes down to how confident you are in the gear you have, and how well you have trained yourself to use it.

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from Smithhammer wrote 2 years 28 weeks ago

Sorry, but I'd have to respectfully disagree with that, and I don't think it's all "just talk." Real confidence when you're drawing down comes from not just thinking, but KNOWING, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you have the most accurate and lethal setup that you can. And it's just a basic fact that there are a number of factors you need to understand in order to stack the odds in your favor, rather that just going out with "whatver."

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from Drew McClure wrote 2 years 28 weeks ago

I look forward to testing out G5 Montec CS (Carbon Steel), first impressions are that they are wicked sharp, and based on my experience with CS, easy to resharpen.

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from kent2981 wrote 2 years 27 weeks ago

I gotta agree with hunter55, while i do think that quality gear most definitely helps, ultimately what matters is your confidence in yourself to be able to put the arrow where you want. you gotta think, "i'm gonna nail this", rather than "good thing i have a better setup, in case i miss my mark"

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 26 weeks ago

lovetohunt,
Congrats, you are the winner. Want o write a guest "Shoot Me Down?"
I've emailed you a couple times and haven't heard back. Maybe I've got a old address.
Please let me know.

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Im gonna shoot you down like you never been shot down before!
Yes speed helps you hit where you aim at longer ranges. But inside realistic bow ranges arrow speed does not make that much of a difference at all. Not enough to result in not finding a game animal if you put your time in practicing.
But here is where I am really going to get you. Its all about the efficiency of your setup and getting the most out of your bow. (To find the efficiency factor of your bow and arrow setup you need take your KE and divide it by your draw weight)
Now lets say you are shooting 5 grains per pound out of a 64# bow. Arrow weight of 320 grains.
Lets say this bow averages 277.5 fps for 5 shots through a chrono. (Dave, if your bow is at 70#s you will be in between 5 and 6 grains per pound, so your numbers could be translated to this group for the comparison.)
Your KE is 54.5 ft/lbs
Your Efficiency is .851

Now same bow as above but shooting 9 grains per pound. 576 grain arrow at 214 fps.
Your KE will be 58.5 ft/lbs
Efficiency factor will be .914

Now I guess I will through MO into the mix now…
MO out of the 5 grains per pound setup is .393
MO out of the 9 grains per pound setup is .547

Now the KE is not that far apart from each other but the in the MO category there is a huge difference.

Now about that Efficiency factor…
Why would you want to shoot a lighter arrow and not get the most killing power out of your bow? Most of todays bows efficiency will top out at about 9 or 10 grains per pound. Giving you the most penetration and I can almost guarantee you will always get a pass through weather you ware shooting deer or elk or whatever animal you are hunting.

Now all these number I got I used my cell phones calculator so If they are wrong please correct me. But the proof is in the numbers… Speed doesn’t kill, it just helps in yardage misjudgments. I will take my heavy arrows any day because I know I am going to get 2 holes in a deer no matter what the shot angle is, this will result in much quicker blood loss leading to the animal going down faster. Ive tracked my buddys deer he shoot with “light and fast” arrows for to long… But since then I got him to switch to heavy arrows, he has never had a problem since the switch. His bloodtrails have been wide and short…

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

lovetohunt,
Good stuff. You're the clear leader, so far.
But I'm not sure you've shot me down. What I'm saying is that the extra speed generated by a fast bow allows you to use a HEAVIER arrow, without sacrificing a lot in terms of trajectory. I'm coming at the speed argument from the opposite angle most speed guys do: They says, "Use a faster bow and a lighter arrow to get super-flat trajectory." I say, "Use a faster bow and a heavier arrow to get the same trajectory--and better penetration."

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from CAT22 wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Ur making an arguement FOR weight, Dave, momentum... not speed. I'm confused. You say speed kills but you bump up your weight giving you more "momentum". You say the extra weight is a benefit on poor shots and U are right. If speed kills, then don't worry about weight. Whats the difference if speed kills? U will still get better penetration from a slower arrow weighing more on borderline shots than you will with a lighter, faster arrow. Sounds like you are shooting yourself down so I don't have to.

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Wow I wrote a lot, sorry for the long read.

Some people say I make bow hunting to complicated, but bow hunting is hard. And when I have that buck ive been after all season at 20 yards quartering away, Im da*n sure gonna make sure I have the power to make it through him! Not just stick him with a carbon straw!

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Dave,
Well I don’t think how anyone possibly could shoot you down with the argument of "Use a faster bow and a heavier arrow to get the same trajectory--and better penetration."
It makes the most logical sense. You get the same trajectory as a slower bow with a lighter arrow. Thus nothing changes except for your KE, MO, and Efficiency going up! The end result of that is just total devastation on deer.
But, a lot of today’s fast bows don’t have a very good draw cycle compared to a bow that is made to be smooth like an Elite Z28 or Hunter. And when its 20 degrees out and you have been on stand for 3 hours a smooth drawing bow is easier to draw back without as much movement as compared to a speed bow. The speed bows have a lower brace height (giving them a longer power stroke to get that speed) but the lower the brace height in general means less forgiving and rougher draw cycle. And when that buck is at 20 yards, I want it smooth shooting and forgiving. But, I will say the fast bow’s draw cycles have greatly improved over the years. And with today’s technology it allows Bowtech to make your Invasion shoot as fast as it does with a 7” brace.
To me a 7” or more brace height means a very nice, forgiving hunting bow. Heck it even makes a great all around bow. But at the end of the day I want is slow, because slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. Give me an arrow at around 8 or 9 grains per pound and smooth cams with a 7 or more inch brace height.
For example I think we can all agree that the Mathews Switchback XT has arrowed more game animals then pretty much every bow to this date. And there is a good reason for this, it is so smooth and forgiving. Most guys still won’t get rid of their SBXT because of that 7.5” brace height and smooth, round cam. And the IBO rating on that bow is 315 fps.

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from Walt Smith wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

What am I doing up so late? Skinning and quartering the two does I just killed in Michigan's early anterless hunt, thats what! I didn't shoot any deer with my rifle last year, I got them all with my bow. My rifle was acting jealous so I decided I'd better give it some action. Now I've got 2 deer in the fridge to clean and bow season hasn't even started yet, I've never been in this position before but I like it!! Interesting part was the 12 deer that were feeding in the field 100 yards from me 15 min. after I shot twice, didn't even phase them. Good luck on your elk hunt Dave!

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from ejunk wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

at 20 yards, the difference in the time of flight between a 200 FPS and 300 FPS shot is 1/10th of a second (0.3 and 0.2 seconds, respectively). a 200 FPS broadside shot with a sharp broadhead will devastate a whitetail deer. Speed is nice, but it isn't as important as a lot of things, in my opinion. I think it's especially inadvisable to prioritize speed over, for example, fit and feel in hand, quality of draw, and hand shock when buying a bow. but, some people love big numbers - and there is a market for that!

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Careful, Luke,
Don't use this photo to gauge penetration--because the target you're looking at is three yeas old and has some soft spots. You can see that the place where the top arrow hit has material missing from previous use. This photo is just meant to show how close the point of impact is between the two heads.

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from luke_striegel wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Thank you Dave, sorry for a silly question. Idduck, I shoot the exact same set up and have not had a problem. Last year I shot a doe at 42 yds and she went down within 10 yds. Shot placement is key, but 42 yds was pushing it.

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

idduckhntr,
You should be in fine fettle with that setup. I believe the IBO on the X3 is about 310--pleny, plenty, plenty fast. To be clear, I'm not saying anyone needs to run out and get a faster bow--or go up to a 125 grain head. I'm just saying that speed has some significant advantages.
Bowman77,
Please see my comment above yours.

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from Sanjuancb wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Speed does kill...with a bullet. Broadheads don't deform. They kill by piercing vital organs or through blood loss. Speed, while handy, really doesn't have much to do with that. Those people who shoot exceptionally light arrows in order to gain more kinetic energy and a flatter trajectory don't understand the big picture. The kinetic energy formula is biased in favor of speed because velocity is squared in it. However, that is irrelevant because it is not the energy itself that kills but the disruption of vital functions.

What really counts is shot placement and penetration.

Light-for-poundage arrows vibrate more and are harder on the bow itself. Usually they are slightly underspined and are hard to tune. A heavier arrow makes sense because of decrease vibration (wasted energy) and increased penetration (because of greater momentum). By looking at measures of momentum where are better able to understand penetration.

Finally, the design of a broadhead also has a great deal to do with penetration. Ask yourself this question, would you shoot a full-grown bull elk with a 45 lb. bow and light arrows? Probably not. Despite this, thick-skinned big game are killed by the bushel basket every year by traditional archers using similar poundage bows, heavy arrows, and two-blade broadheads.

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from Blue Ox wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I think I need a new bow... :)

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from Walt Smith wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

You kids and your speed kills make me laugh! I've been using the same old bow, a Fred Bear Polar II that I bought used from a friend back in 89 for 60.00. I shoot Beeman 31" 340's with Muzzy 100 grain broadheads with a release, a High Country two arm spring rest and a Pollington red dot scope. I've killed 26 deer with this bow and the last six I've killed with the same stupid arrow, which I retired this year. This bow maybe generates 250 feet per second. Speed don't mean diddley squat! My longest shot was 20 yds. Accuracy,getting close and releasing the arrow when the deer isn't on high alert status is the only thing that matters. Speed is just a marketing ploy for those who don't know any better!

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I knew you'd like this one, Walt.
My next post: "Speed Doesn't Kill, Walt Does."
And what the heck you doing up so late?
Unlike us kids who don't know any better, geezers like you need your rest.
(You know I'm joking, Walt.)

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from RES1956 wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Pancea would be a big, heavy arrow/broadhead going 300 fps. Bone crushing energy and momentum retained well at 40+ yards. Personally, I am not going to shoot farther than about 30 and usually don't pick up my bow until they are that close or closer, so an ultra flat trajectory is not paramount with me.
But, yes, I guess speed kills, for amateurs who can't get close enough.

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Shane,
The title was meant to be a little ironic. But I certainly see your point. If you want, next week I'll explain to anyone who doesn't understand why they shouldn't be shocked when their new bow doesn't actually shoot an arrow 343 feet per second.

Okay all. I'm off to a backcountry elk hunt for a week to, with some luck, see how my bow, arrows, and heads work on the real thing.

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from Walt Smith wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Back to the article-- What is the real difference between a bow shooting 300 feet per second and a bow shooting 250 feet per second when the target is 20 yards (60 feet) away??? What, maybe 1-2 feet in impact distance? Maybe 2/100's of a second? Speed means nothing!

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from bowman77 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

KRis24 worry for the late response. My apologies if I misunderstood the article. However, you are telling me that by shooting a fast bow and as heavy an arrow I can, I will now be penetrating should blades and backbones with my arrows if I am off the mark on my shot?? If someone is shooting on the extreme end of a lighter set-up I can see how penetration will not be as great. But don't tell me I my set-up can blast through shoulder blades and back bones now. We're still shooting arrows at whatever grains per inch at 300+ FPS, not 150 grains of lead at 2,000 FPS. Accuracy or not, whichever set-up allows you to draw comfortably and shoot accurately is the way a hunter should go. Now, I can see a point how faster bows help you eliminate distance judging errors at longer ranges, but not sure why shooting a heavier arrow matters? It you hit a vital spot, a heavier arrow will penetrate just as much as a lighter arrow through a rib cage. So if you want to tell me speed help accuracy, sure, I agree with that. You want to tell me shooting a heavier arrow is gonna make a difference on a well place shot or poor placed shot, not a chance.

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from tuckerj5047 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

I would argue that speed does not kill, it helps kill better. Heavy arrows shooting fast have and retain more energy at long distances and through bone than light arrows shooting fast. A slightly misplaced shot in the shoulder is going to need that extra energy to penetrate. Shooting a longbow, I am not very concerned with speed as it is an almost unachievable thing with one. Because of the lack of energy from slow arrows I shoot a 200 grain head to add kinetic energy. Dr. Ed Ashby has done an extensive study on arrow lethality. His main conclusion is that arrows with a high percentage of its overall weight at the front have an exponential increase in penetration potential. His report can be found online, and is a great reference for setting up the most lethal arrow-broadhead combination.

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from luke_striegel wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I am shocked by the difference in penetration. I have always used 100 grain. If I move to a larger broadhead (125 grain), do I need to move to a larger grain arrow as well to keep the accuracy?

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from steve182 wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

My last couple hunting bows got about 260fps with my hunting arrow. My new one about 300. I am amazed at the penetration on a near new Block target...buries the fletchings every time. The flatter trajectory allows fewer pins and the speed will make it harder for a deer to duck the string. I was perfectly happy with the killing capability of the slower bows but perhaps i didn't know what i was missing. We'll see in couple weeks i hope.

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from idduckhntr wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Dave I shoot a Mission X3 set at 60# shooting Easton 400 carbon storms with Muzzy MX3 100gr broad heads I like my shots at 35 but have practiced at 40 should I be worried about penetration? I dont want this to sound wrong because I have yet to shoot a deer with a bow just looking for some insite.

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from bowman77 wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

The picture doesn't necessarily hold true for your argument. One picture does not tell the hole story. Just looking at the picture, it looks like the top arrow penetrated a more worn out area of the target which would allow for further penetration. The top arrow is sitting anchored in a large hole. I would like to see this down with a new target that has never been fired at. As far as speed, the advantage is certainly the fact that it will allow a hunter to be off on distance and still hit the vital area. Most bows these days will shoot (real hunting scenarios, not stripped down, shoot the lightest arrow possible ibo speeds) around 275-280 FPS with some exceptions of top speed bows. Shooting a heavier arrow with these set-ups is going to provide superb pass through penetration just as much as a speed bow that may have a shorter brace height, allowing for less accuracy. In addition, how easily can you draw a bow like this in a situation when you have been sitting on stand in 20 degree weather all morning and your muscles freeze up? A 55-60lb draw weight on a standard flagship bow, shooting a heavier arrow, will pass through a white tail time and time again. The new bows are so much more efficient these days and can do twice the work with half the effort of older models. What I am getting at is, why do you really need a speed bow when a very high percentage of hunters shoot their deer with a bow at 15-25 yards, and sometimes 30. No matter how fast your bow is, a deer has a lot of time to react to a shot at 40 yards, even with the fastest bows. I would much rather have a bow that draws back with little effort and I can hold for a long long time in any condition, than a bow that may or may not have a smooth draw, but regardless if its poundage is set at 65- or 70lbs, the average hunter will not be able to hold and draw as smoothly as they can with a draw weight of 55-60 lbs. Accuracy is more important than anything. Even though a speed bow may be more accurate at 40 yards even 30, I more concerned about the 90% of shots I take at 15-20 yards in which I can draw the bow like a butter and hold as long as I need when that deer get's hung up before entering the next shooting lane; and know that that arrow will still make a pass through shot with little effort.

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from Kris24 wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Yes, speed kills!!! Bowman77, this article is not about shooting farther. It is about the times when we miss the exact spot we are aiming at and hit shoulder bone, back bone, etc. etc. Bow hunting is all about shot placement and if you never miss the spot you are aiming at you wont have a problem. However, this is bow hunting and Murphy's law is always out to get you. There will be times when you miss your key spot and, it will be at that time, you will wish that you had the speed to deliver the foot pounds necessary to drive on through the area that you did hit to get to the vitals....speed gives you that and therefore speed does, indeed, kill!

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from ilikehunting wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Dave, are those Montec G5's? I used those last year and liked them quite a bit..Also I never got a hat from y'all WAAAAAYYY back in the day when I finished in the top 10 of a caption contest during Cabela's anniversary thing.Not a big deal...but are those the G5's?

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from jbird wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I'm not sure if the "confidence" that a fast arrow gives the hunter outweighs the fact that alot of guys end up flinging arrows at game wayyy farther out than they should. Just at thought.

Dave, I'm having shoulder surgery in 2 weeks so in hope of trying to salvage my bow season, (It runs from 9/15-1/15 in MO) I went to my local shop and had the draw on my Reflex Growler backed off from 67# down to 53#. Praying that by November I can draw the lesser weight. My question is ; before I sight it in with my 100gr. Muzzy's, do you think I should get some 125gr.'s to give me a little more penetration since my bow will no longer be shooting "blazing fast"??

Any thoughts/info you or any other bowhunters who've shot with pull weights in the 50's would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

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from Kris24 wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Speed and weight go hand in hand when calculating foot pounds of energy. Dave's point is you can get a faster shooting bow and add more weight to it and shoot just as far as you could with the slower bow and less weight. The engergy (foot pounds) will go up if you increase either speed or weight. When increasing weight only though your speed drops, off setting any gain you would get in engergy by increasing the weight. When increasing speed only you generate more energy and the foot poundage goes up. What Dave is saying is if you have a faster bow you can shoot a heavier object faster and maintain the distance that the slower bow with a lighter arrow would be able to achieve. The key here is the speed. If you increase speed you get more engergy. If you increase weight you can potentially get more engergy as long as you dont lose speed. You have to have the speed!!!

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Ike,
Yup, G5 Montecs. One of the guys at Cabela's saw your post and just emailed me saying he'll get you that. So one of us will be contacting you.
jbird,
In your case, the 125s may make too big a difference in trajectory. There's no simple answer. (How far do you feel comfortable shooting? How many pins to you use? What does your arrow weigh, etc.)
CAT,
I'm saying that one of the advantages of speed is that you can go to a heavier arrow without taking a huge hit in terms of how flat the bow shoots. But anyway you slice it, more speed means more kenitic engery (1/2 mass x velocity squared) and momentum (mv).

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Sorry,
Ilike, not Ike

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from jbird wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Thanks Dave. I think I'll stick with the 100gr's and keep my shots to 30 yards or less.

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from chuckles wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Speed thrills, accuracy kills.
Also wouldn't hurt if you stop using it as an excuse to take marginal shots like straight down.

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from huntinhuntinhuntin wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

This was a very informational piece for me, a fourth year bow hunter.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

One more thing, the faster arrow that retains its speed, the flatter the trajectory!

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Sanjuancb,
Well argued. Yes, what counts in shot placement and penetration. And I'm suggesting that speed helps with both. It lets me go heavier, which increases momentum for better penetration, while maintaining a fairly flat trajectory, which helps with shot placement.
I could go heavier without speed, but the looping trajectory will make shot placement more difficult.
What's more, a really fast bow will shoot a heavier arrow FASTER than a slow bow will shoot a lighter arrow--in which case everything favors the fast bow: more KE, more momentum, and flatter trajectory, again increasing penetration and making shot placement easier.

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from shane wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

You title it speed kills, then you go on to tell us to use a heavier arrow and a heavier head. Seems like you reversed your position, though I can't say I disagree with your points. I was about to have a field day, thinking you were about to tell us to to maximize arrow speed at all costs.

Speed is good until you start using light arrows and light heads to get speed. Your speed should come from your bow, but no matter how fast your bow is, I recommend a 125 grain broadhead (At least 100. 85 for deer? Come on.), and an arrow that has enough spine to push it. Ask the recurve guys. Recurves are pretty darn slow compared to a modern compound, but they're all using heavy heads, some up to 220 grains. This is because weight and weight forward are the keys to good penetration. Not just speed alone.

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from mwmrtn wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I agree w/Walt accuracy and getting close are the keys!Who cares how fast your arrow is,you hit that shoulder bone w/ an errant shot you ain't killin that deer! Being proficient w/ your hunting rig is paramount.I watched these Outdoor shows like Bowmadness the other week and they show a guy shootin a whopper/record book antelope at 35/45yrd range from a ground blind and he hit square in the ass/ham as the animal was gettin ready to leave/spookin!I would have been embarassed!Then to top it off, put it in your feature "I shot it w/ My PSE".Made me sick! I never seen so many gut shots/ unethical shots taken on animals than on these types of shows and I blame these bow companys for giving these so called hunters a false sense of confidence that I can shoot out to 60/70 yards most can't even draw on animal w/o gettin busted plus they are huntin on properties most of us only dream about!! Back to the speed kills topic?! Total BS!!

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from IceClash wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

In rifles speed does not kill, though it makes it easier to hit, in bows, speed does not kill but an arrow isn't exactly good for killing anyways. If its about challenging yourself with range constraints, pick buckshot or iron sights but please for the sake of a clean kill, leave your pointy sticks at home

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from shane wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

You should change the title to "Fast Bows are Awesome". Saying "speed kills" makes it sound like you're a light arrow light broadhead FPS counter that doesn't understand how an arrow kills or that IBO numbers shouldn't be achievable with a hunting setup.

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from GuyGene wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Oh me - I don't even own a bow yet, but see my costs going up! I guess I will try to go with old Walt in his above post. I'm probably more of a geezer than he is! What I mean by going with him, is I'll just keep try to my conservative nature, and take careful, close shots when I can finally afford to get a bow and begin my bow hunting. I have no problem passing up shots with my rifle and shotgun, so I am not worrying about taking long shots. My goal is to get very accurate out to 30 yards - I know that is a fairly long shot with a bow, but so far I have been able to shoot that far with borrowed bows.

Thanks for this information, Dave. All the bows I have looked at so far shoot at about 300 fps. Only problem is I am such a traditionalist that I am really leaning to a recurve...

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

lovetohunt,
Now you're talking. Those are indeed the typical drawbacks. But some fast bows are better shooting than others. I tested a couple of insanely fast models a couple years ago that I wouldn't dream of hunting with. If fact, I blew out my shoulder testing them. But the bow I'm shooting now is not a problem--and I'm only shooting about 64 pounds because my shoulder is still not quite right. But it's still fast.

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from shane wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

The title really did throw me for a loop. Still itching at me a little.

That explanation might actually be necessary.

In any case, thank you for plugging arrow weight. It's good for hunters and good for the game.

Good luck on your elk hunt. Here's to getting a shot in the first place, and getting a clean pass through when you do. Sounds like you're destined to do so after this blog, to prove your point. I hope no elk "shoot you down".

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from pete5645 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

I agree that speed kills, but the heavier grain limits your distance greatly. I shot a buck 2 years ago (confidently) at 52 yds , 100 grain, pulling 68# with a clean pass through. I don't think I would have been able to make that shot comfortably with a 125 grain.

Also, Dave I never hat from the caption contest a while back as well. Not a big deal, but saw ilikehunting mention he had the same problem so I thought I would mention it.

Shoot Straight!

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from RANGERMANZ20 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Dave I agree with you to the tee. After 30 years of bowhunting a fast bow with a heavier arrow and one pin is simple and highly effective. I set my pin at 30 yards and just adjust point of aim slightly to match distance. I shot a large Kansas Buck several years back from a stand at 35 yrds for some reason he hopped forward and i hit him in the back hip went through hip bones and stuck in a tree buck fell dead on the spot. There use to be a guy who did hunting vidios called i thank Ben Lee who was famous for making shots like that.

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from eugenedarin wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

I enjoyed reading it. I need to read more on this topic...I admire time and effort you put in your blog, I often read at my work as a sales assistant at container transportation Turkey, because it is obviously one great place where I can find lot of useful info.

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from Smithhammer wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Yes, speed is part of the equation, but in my mind, largely due to the advertising machine, it has been emphasized WAY too much as the end-all-be-all. We all know 'fast is sexy, and sexy sells.' A reasonable amount of speed is important. But I'm shocked and dismayed at the lightweight arrows that are being thrown from many a hi-tec bow today. The mentality that 'speed is all that matters' demonstrates a profoundly simplistic understand of how archer, bow and arrow work together to be as deadly as possible. Weight, and momentum, are essential to quick kills, and anyone who thinks that a fast bow somehow makes that equation irrelevant, needs to take a basic physics course.

Shoot a bow of reasonable speed, by all means, but combine that with a heavy, cut-on-contact head on a well-tuned arrow, and you'll be amazed at the difference. And as mentioned above, read Dr. Ashby. If you haven't, don't take a shot at another live animal until you do.

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from Hunter55 wrote 2 years 28 weeks ago

Fast, slow, heavy, light don't get caught in all the talk. At the end of the day when your alone in your favorite stand, with the buck of a lifetime standing at 30 yards, all of these factors fade away. Success comes down to how confident you are in the gear you have, and how well you have trained yourself to use it.

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from Smithhammer wrote 2 years 28 weeks ago

Sorry, but I'd have to respectfully disagree with that, and I don't think it's all "just talk." Real confidence when you're drawing down comes from not just thinking, but KNOWING, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you have the most accurate and lethal setup that you can. And it's just a basic fact that there are a number of factors you need to understand in order to stack the odds in your favor, rather that just going out with "whatver."

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from Drew McClure wrote 2 years 28 weeks ago

I look forward to testing out G5 Montec CS (Carbon Steel), first impressions are that they are wicked sharp, and based on my experience with CS, easy to resharpen.

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from kent2981 wrote 2 years 27 weeks ago

I gotta agree with hunter55, while i do think that quality gear most definitely helps, ultimately what matters is your confidence in yourself to be able to put the arrow where you want. you gotta think, "i'm gonna nail this", rather than "good thing i have a better setup, in case i miss my mark"

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from Dave Hurteau wrote 2 years 26 weeks ago

lovetohunt,
Congrats, you are the winner. Want o write a guest "Shoot Me Down?"
I've emailed you a couple times and haven't heard back. Maybe I've got a old address.
Please let me know.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Never got into that what weight the arrow is stuff, but I can say this. My 28" Gold-Tip 5575 with a 3 blade Muzzy 100 grain at 310 fps out of my HCA 4Runner blows right through whitetails at 50 yards!

GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME!

And I'm still waiting for someone to convince me I should trade in that 12 year old bow!

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