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Guest Shoot Me Down: Expensive Bows Are Worth Every Penny

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November 11, 2011

Guest Shoot Me Down: Expensive Bows Are Worth Every Penny

By Dave Hurteau

In our last “Shoot Me Down,” I argued that “Speed Kills” because a fast bow allows you to use a heavier arrow and larger broadhead without giving up too much in trajectory. In response, lovetohunt gave us a thesis on kinetic energy, momentum and most interestingly, bow-and-arrow efficiency. Now, as our SMD winner, he is here to rant and rave as my special guest.

Take it away, lovetohunt:

Expensive bows are worth every penny.

All too often I see people hunting with bows that look like they were made in a toyshop 15 years ago. These folks can’t seem to justify spending the money on today’s better models, but I don’t think they realize that these expensive bows kill deer better than those ancient bows do.

Now, I’m not saying you need to buy a brand-new, top-of-the-line bow every year--or that older bows can’t kill deer. I am saying that you will be amazed how much more accurate and deadly you are with a newer bow. These models have vastly improved technology. (I am not going to explain all of the tech stuff). This in turn makes you more accurate and confidant, and when you are in the woods confidence is everything. With the old, cheap bows—shooting 175 fps or a little better—if you misjudge distance by five yards, you could end up wounding a deer. But with today’s high-end bows, five yards hardly makes any difference, and you are eating backstraps for dinner.

Another good reason to spend the money is that archery season is much longer than firearms season in most states. So why not give yourself better odds by investing more into archery gear? You can be in the woods a lot longer, and anyone who has ever hunted deer knows that getting a good shot can take many days and sometimes weeks of hunting hard. When you do get your chance, you want to know that your bow can put the arrow where it needs to go.

So there you have it. Today’s top bows aren’t cheap, but I think the cost is well worth it. Stand with me or shoot me down.

Comments (51)

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from Bob81 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I am a traditional archer that uses a wooden recurve. You are absolutely right that a modern bow is far, far, far technically superior in effectiveness compared to traditional archery gear (or older compunds for that matter). However, if hunting for everybody was purely about effectiveness, people like me wouldn't exist.

Hunting, for me (and a lot of the other hunters I know) is only partially about having an animal in the back of the truck at the end of the day. It's at least equally about going on a trip with my buddies, spending time sitting in the woods thinking about life, and of testing my skill to lure an animal into close range. It's also about tapping into a tradition that my father, grandfather, great-grandfather, and so on also engaged in before me.

As soon as the newest top-of-the-line, $1,500 compound bow comes with a new feature that enhances my ability to accomplish those things, I'll retire my old recurve and go out and buy one.

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from labrador12 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

My neighbor in Ak has made two trips to Africa and has shot just about anything you can think of. When I left to head on home he had two bucks so far. He shoots a long bow. I'm thinking that thats a tad slower than many of todays newest and fastest. Technology can help to replace skill and knoledge but its always expensive. 30 years experiance is expensive too, just not in money.

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from Levi Banks wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

How often do you get a chance at a bowshot over 40 yards anyway? In ideal conditions I am completely confident it's a dead deer out to 50 yards, but rarely do I have a clear shot with little wind beyond 40. There's usually a limb or something in the way. If you're shooting that far on a regular basis I suggest you learn to place your stands a little better, or be mobile and hunt from the ground. I bought an old used bow from a friend when he moved up to a newer model. When I make the shot (if I miss the blame has always been on me, not the bow) the deer is dead. The times i've made a bad shot wouldn't have been any better if I'd spent 1000 instead of 50 on my bow. My wife asked me what you get in a more expensive bow as I recently bought a new one (one of the cheapest Bear models). After reading this my answer's the same, a little faster, a little quieter, a little snazzier look, but not much really.

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from mkorpal wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

"I don’t think they realize that these expensive bows kill deer better than those ancient bows do."

Kill better? A kill is a kill. I would rephrase that statement to say today's bows are more efficient and provide a hunter the opportunity to make a more humane kill if shot placement is off (by providing enough speed to blow through a shoulder, of course this will depend on what grain arrow/broadhead the hunter is using).

Overall, I agree that contemporary bows are much more efficient and better than yesteryear's bows but are they really worth EVERY penny? Personally I believe that depends on a lot of factors and what you consider a "top bow". A new Hoyt Carbon Element costs around $1,300. A new middle of the line Diamond or Bear turns in at $500 to $600. Now I wouldn't consider the latter two bows to be "top bows" but they still shoot darn good and are better than a bow "made in a toyshop 15 years ago". I just can't see how the Carbon Element, or some of the other bows that cost upwards of $1,000, could be worth EVERY penny.

Another factor to consider, as 'lovetohunt' points out, is confidence. Some guys who own these old bows are still shooting them because they are practically part of their body. These hunters have been shooting them for years and know their effective range so why buy a new bow? Heck they could save their pennies and get a rangefinder, instead of a "top bow", so they don't misjudge a shot by 5 yards.

What it all boils down to for me is what do I feel comfortable shooting and what can I afford without breaking the bank. I still shoot a 6 year old Bear. Is it better than the first compound Fred built? Of course. Was it a "top bow" back when I bought it? Not according to all of those guys who told me to buy a Mathews or BowTech for $300 more but I still shoot groups as well as they do. Was that original purchase worth every penny? For me it was but I still had an extra 30,000 pennies in my pocket because I didn't get that "top bow".

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

mkorpal,

My statement about them killing better is for the reasons you gave. Better penitration, accuracy, ect... And yes a kill is a kill.

Great arguements so far guys!

I knew this topic would get some good arguements contrasting what I had said.

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from Muleynut30.06 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

The only hunting that I think is truly worth every penny is my kings shadow camo wind defender jacket and good quality optics. In my opioion what this boils down to is practie pratice practice. A guy can go buy a new bow shoot a few arrows then go on a hunt and more then likely the bow will perform. However the guys who shoot with an older bow as said before is second nature they have put so many arrows down range its comfortable to them. Its the same with rifle hunters I know guys that will buy the newest long range package but the guys who have had the same gun for 30 years who know how it shoots always end up getting the game. Ill stand with you on the point that todays tech is more efficient but shoot ya down when you say its worth every penny cause sometimes you pay more for name.

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Muleynut

What about the guy that has the top end bow and also shoots 2,000 arrows a month?

Thats what I do, you can get just wicked accurate by doing that.

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from spiaailtli wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Expensive new bows make poor hunters believe they are good. Good hunters can make their own bows and arrows from trees...They know how to sneak up on deer and kill them up close and personal.

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from shazam wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I can go years up here without seeing a single deer during the season (bow or gun). I will take any advantage I can get, thank you very much.
:-)

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from jjas wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

If spending a grand on a bow every year puffs your feathers up, I say go for it.

I'm quite sure your local archery dealer loves you.

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from kratch wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

There is no question newer expensive bows are more efficient, but the fact remains that if you practice and know your limitations, it shouldn't matter what bow you are using. Knowing your effective range and waiting for a clean shot opportunity will allow you to put meat in the freezer. I know of a few hunters who take long, bad angle shots simply because they think their top-of-the-line bow's name will overcome a bad hit. The bottom line is, if you put your arrow where it's supposed to go, the cost of your bow won't matter.

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from Bob81 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I would like to add that if your only concern is effectiveness and ability to kill, let's just eliminate archery season altogether. After all, a rifle is much more effective than even the best compounds due to superior range and power. Why bother with a bow then?

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from f5mandopicker wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Marketing hype drives the industry and I continue to drink the Kool Aid. Will my newest bow ever be smooth enough and fast enough to truly satisfy me? I loved archery and its challenges when i got into it many years ago. Now I ask myself, is this still archery?

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Bob,

because I am a bowhunter, I don't care to shoot a deer with a rifle, I never have and probably never will.

By the way today on 11-11-11 I had a nice doe quartering tom me at 20 yards. I knew my set up had more then enough power to blow through her. So I settled my pin in the center of that shoulder a let it fly, sure enough that arrow went through her like she wasnt even there. The blood trail was 8 feet wide for about 20 yards.

Now I am not encourage people to take that shot, I had 100% confidance I could kill that deer. But if someone had an old bow and they hit where I did, well you might as well forget it!

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from Basheer Benhalim wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

The fact of the matter is that guys who shoot old rigs kill deer... The guys who shoot new rigs kill deer... That being said I get a new bow almost every other year if not every year. I like speed bows, I like shooting out to 65 yards. You can't do that with an old bow, they just weren't made to perform to those specs.

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from scratchgolf72 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

with you love to hunt.....its like the golfer that uses the same clubs he bought 15 years ago. sure they work, but you would be a lot better off with a brand new pair. more consistent and you hit the ball farther.

same goes for bows

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from wvboy1022 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I would have to say the newer broadheads and arrows are a bigger advantage then the bows almost. If you look and a 1950s Bear brand broadhead vs a Rage, G5, etc you wonder how they could be very effective. Heck, just a lil better than what the Indians used!

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Scratch,

That is a great example.

A good archer with bad bow = good shoot

A good archer with great bow = AMAZING SHOT

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from Hank111 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Lovetohunt- I know you are right, especially after decoying antelope on public land in Wyoming 2 months ago. I shoot the original Mathews Conquest that was made in the late 90's, the first year on the market. My deal is I am one of the few still shooting fingers, and I have not ever shot a bow any better. I have been given several new bows from guys I take hunting but they all either end up as high dollar fishbows or given back. My old Mathews always hits where it was pointing when I let the string go, maybe not the spot I wanted, but where it was pointing, thats just my fault. I would buy a new bow if they ever made one as perfect for finger shooting.

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from Pa deer hunter wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I would have to shoot you down compound bows are like computers you buy a top of the line new one this year and next year it's obsolete. They don't hold their value it isn't necessary to spend that much money on a good bow.

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from WATCHINDEER247365 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I own older bows I have new bows other than being a pound or two lighter, 30-50 fps faster and quieter, bows are bows. Created to sling a shaft with razor tip through an animal. I've used older bows with older expandables that blew thru bone without looking back, when people told me that expandables never would. Are the bows today worth every penny? Which bows are we talking about? The packages that cost $300+, that ones buy and are extremely pleased with and kill JUST AS GOOD, or the $1000+ bare bow that many buy just to be a little faster than the next guy. Buying the outrageously priced equipment just to make yourself SEEM better than someone else. Too many times I've seen ones buy new equipment just because someone else did and they have to "one up" the other. Its all about being CONTENT. I've learned a bow is a bow. Practice, skill and ability are the important factors. Are the expensive bows worth every penny? NO! Anyone that thinks otherwise is not rationally weighting the facts. Expensive bows don't make a better hunter, period. If your a good hunter, you can kill deer with any bow, period. (seen it proven to me) If ones want to spend $1000s to massage their egos, more power to them. Just because it cost alot doesn't make it better.

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from buckhunter wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

It is true the more expensive bows shoot better but when it comes time to make a kill shot it is not the price of the bow but the person shooting it.

I am a little uneasy with the "worth every penny" comment. Bows continue to be a poor investment for the hunter. Compared to a gun of equal value bows depreciate and wear out much faster.

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Watchindeer,

Good arguement.

But to some people archery hunting is MORE the just a hobby. To me and many hunters, bow hunting and archery in general is a way of life. I live and breath archery, I shoot thousands of arrows per month. I appreciate the quality of high end bows. I would find it hard for me to spend $800+ on a rifle. but for a bow $800+ is not hard at all to part with.

But like I said you have great points, but just go top a shop and demo a nice bow. You will then realize how amazing they truly are.

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from ohiodeerhunter wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Why do I need to buy a new bow?
I shoot a Hoyt Gamegetter II- made about 1986.
It still puts an arrow all the way through a deer at 40 yards,it still hits where I'm aiming,I use two brands of arrows for hunting-Easton 2117 aluminum,or Easton XX-75 aluminum. Tried carbon arrows,I do like them,but still have plenty of 2117's and XX-75's.
I'm using 100 grain Thunderheads for broadheads,that's a recent switch from 125 grain Wasp's.
The 100 grain thunderheads get slightly better penetration in a block target.
I have a new cobra sight,new quiver,string silencers,and a stabilizer bar on the bow.
I do not shoot with a release,just can't get consistent hits using one- I use a three finger "glove" for finger protection.
I've shot a few newer bows,yes,a lot quieter,a lot faster,maybe a little bit more accurate.
If I can hit out to 40 yards, put every arrow in the kill zone,using the equipment I have why do I need a new bow?
I still kill deer-the longest shot I ever took at a deer was 42 yards,and it went down within 50 yards after being hit.
What is wrong with using what I have,and have been shooting for many years?

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from WATCHINDEER247365 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

LOVETOHUNT

I HAVE, NOT IMPRESSED ONE BIT. My 5 year old Hoyt is all I need.

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from WATCHINDEER247365 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I actually regret spending the money on my Hoyt. I've got a older High country that was given to me that is just as good as the bows on the market now, just a little heavier in weight. I don't see the logic in spending $1000s just to improve what one has in that small of increments. O, there are far more important things in life than hunting.

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Watchindeer,

Well I don't know what to tell you. You must not appreciate the advancements an archery over the years and how the great the new rigs shoot (anything post Mathews Swithback, so after 2005). But thats ok, every has there own opinions.

And a 5 year old Hoyt? Thats gotta be around when they had the Trykon, im not a Hoyt guy though so I dont know for sure. I am more of a Mathews, Elite, Strother, K&K, or anything Kevin himself has designed, like the SR-71.

A 5 year old Hoyt is still a great bow. And for you to go out and by a brand new Hoyt wouldnt be that much of an upgrade. Now If you were shooting a 1995 Hoyt, the upgrade to a current model would be more then worth the cost in my opinion.

But I like to get a new rig every 3 seasons. Thats just me, some guys get a new bow every season, and thats fine too.

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from WATCHINDEER247365 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Advancements are amazing, yes. Worth what they ask? No. The whole discussion was they're "worth every penny", hunters that have a proper funtioning bow that kills, it would not be reasonable to spend $1000s just to gain a little speed, and be a little quieter to accomplish the very thing they were doing with the older bow, kill deer. But thats the problem with so many things in this world. Everything is WAY overpriced. Having close friends that work in the manufacturing business, what it cost to create these bows are a mere fraction of what they ask for them. Ones will say alot was put into it, but it all boils down to buying a "name". The advancement made are not worth the asking price in the high-dollar bows.
NOT WORTH EVERY PENNY.

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Well Watchingdeer it looks like you have the best
arguement so far. Especially in your last post. I mean 5 years ago nobody would hav even thought about buying a bow with a msrp of say $1500 or $1000. But nowdays it is the norm.

That being said, I will never go back to shooting the lower end bows after seeing how these high end bows perform.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I've shot a few Bows 1/2 the price of my HCA FourRunner and when they are tuned right, they are just as accurate if not more and some are just as fast.

Now I'm still waiting after months for someone to show me why, I should buy a new bow

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from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Dave Hurteau, why should I buy a new bow?

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from deanlikes2fish wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I need a new bow, can I have 1500 dollard plus another 300 for carbon arrows and bradheads. No? Yeah, thats what my wife said too.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Question, when is to much high tech is swatted tech making it more expensive?

food 4 thought

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Clay,

well draw cycles, efficiency, less noise, no vibe, back walls, and toughness are a few good reasons that these bows are better.

But I know your a rifle guy mostly, atleast that is what it seems like after my years on F&S. So I could understand if you want to keep you ol tried and true.

But for guys like me who havent shot a deer with a gun in a few years know and appreciate the quality of top end bows.

And a properly tuned bow?

My Z7 X is shooting bullet holes through paper and I can't even aim for the same spot under 40 yards, ive ruined to many arrows doing that!

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from ejunk wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

the only bow that's worth a dime to you is the bow that fits you.

yrs-
Evan!

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from RES1956 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

An archery dealer once made the statement to me that a bow is simply a device with which to launch an arrow and
with that I totally agree.
However, the manner in which it launches the arrow has changed dramatically in the last decade and will continue to improve. Less poundage giving more velocity, smoother to draw, less vibration at the shot, lighter weight etc. All of these things are incorporated in most of the newer bows on the market.
You don't need to spend a Grand on a new bow to get these advantages (unless it just makes you feel good helping Matthews pay for their ads which seem to appear on every other page of every archery publication out there)because there are some really good buys in new bows available.
Let's face it, technology that was new this year will be obsolete in a year or two, then your back buying another new bow to keep your ego pumped, thinking you've got the smack daddy of the archery kingdom. I bought a new bow a couple of years ago because I wanted to go to a lighter draw weight and I get the same velocity with my new bow as I did my former bow drawing 60#'s instead of 70. My new bow is shorter, lighter and smoother than my old bow, and get this, I paid less than $400 for it. To date, I have loosed but 6 arrows at deer with it; the results is six dead deer. I don't think they cared that the bow didn't have a $1000 price tag on it.
I hear what your saying lovetohunt, and agree with some of it. BTW, how long are you planning on keeping that Z7?

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

RES,

I plan on keeping my Z7 Xtreme for a while. Me and that bow make a great pair.

I plan to hunt with it for 3 seasons, then in the summer of 2014 possibly by a new bow and use My Z7 Xtreme as back up bow.

Or my other option is I know a guy that buys a new bow every year and sells his old bow for much cheaper then retail, this year he has ordered an Elite Answer and I hope to buy that and use that bow and my Z7 X for the next 6 years or so.

Then by that time the upgrades will be bigger then say me going out and buying a 2012 Mathews Helim as that bow is almost the same as my Z7 Xtreme.

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from kratch wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I can't argue that it is impressive to watch the new, expensive bows in action, but since I've shot through every deer I've shot at with my seven year old Browning, it's tough for me to justify upgrading. Besides, hunting in heavy wooded cover in michigan, it is pointless to get a bow that shoots flat out to 60 yards because I rarely have a clear shot anywhere past 30. Putting the arrow where it needs to go and having a short blood trail are my main objectives for a bow, and so far I've got no complaints. A faster bow might drive the arrows a little further into the ground, but I've never heard anyone ask "how deep did your arrow go?".

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from Proverbs wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

What is "expensive" to you? Defining that may have helped your point.

One thing for sure: Based on the manufacturers' own marketing material and the sales rep's claims, I don't think new bows are good buys at all. According to these claims and materials, the current bow is so much better than last years that many buyers from last year must have buyer's remorse.

Full disclosure: I have a 2010 model bow that is considered a mid-range bow. I sure don't look at it as a good buy and it can't be considered an investment, as any 2010 bow is now worth maybe 20 percent of what you paid for it.

I think new bows are some of the most overpriced tools that exist. And they are unique in that way. Let me explain:

1. Obvious comparison: Expensive rifles ($1,500 and up) are tools that can also be beautiful heirlooms. And they can be used with precision for generations. They don't lose much value, and if you buy the best they may well gain a little value.

2. Top-of-the-line knives: Same as rifles. They don't lose value and are just as effective in 50 years.

3. Top-of-the-line tools, from $100 German scissors to $1,000 socket sets. Unlike bows, they don't lose much value or effectiveness over time.

But bows lose value immediately. As a tool, my 2010 model is effective as long as I keep it tuned and refresh it with new strings at least once a year for another $100 each time.

Bows are very odd in that way. Unfortunately, too many people literally buy into marketing that you have to have the latest bow to get your animal (or at least look cool while doing it). An expensive misconception.

The primary reason I got a new bow is that it was getting too difficult to maintain my Fred Bear Polar II, and no amount of lithium could quiet the squeak in one of the metal wheels.

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from TM wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

not worth every penny.

rifle from 10 years (or 20, or 50) ago, still a modern gun that holds its value.

bow from 10 years ago does not hold its value. And a bow from 50 years ago resembles a bow from 500 years ago. change is so fast in the bow arena that i would never pay full price for one. instead, buy one from 5 years ago on ebay for a 70 percent discount.

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Why does everyone keep comparing the price of rifles to bows?

Thats apples to oranges folks!

This arguement isnt over what holds its value more.

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from ohiodeerhunter wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Off topic-but important-is anyone other than me reporting all these posts that are advertisemnets/links to sites selling stuff?
I don't want to have to scroll past that stuff on every forum on this site-and if I want to go shopping for stuff-that's what I'll do-not waste time checking out ads on user comments boards.

Anyone else agree that these posts need to go?

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from Muleynut30.06 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

lovetohunt your are correct if you can afford the bow and you practice with like you do then I have nothing to say but good for you and I hope your work pays off. My complaint is the guys who have more money then they know what to do with so the buy the best bow they can drop loads of money then never practice with it.

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from Montanagyrene wrote 2 years 21 weeks ago

Haven't tried bow-hunting (yet), so I'm not really qualified to comment on high-priced bows being 'worth every penny', but when I worked in a sporting goods store in Montana, I had a customer bring in a Weatherby rifle that had a Swarovski scope mounted on it. Unless he shot that setup much (which I kinda doubt), I'd be able to shoot just as well, and maybe even BETTER, with my trusty old, beat-up looking military-surplus .06, and straight 4x Leupold scope.

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from ohiodeerhunter wrote 2 years 21 weeks ago

"What about the guy that has the top end bow and also shoots 2,000 arrows a month?

Thats what I do, you can get just wicked accurate by doing that."

The guy who has what was a top-end bow 25 years ago,who shoots 2,000 arrows a month gets to be wicked accurate too-I may not be able to make 50-60 yard shots,but around here-most shots taken at deer are from 15-25 yds.
The arrow still hits where it's aimed,still goes through the deer,and the deer still drops fairly close to where it was when hit.

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from jay wrote 2 years 21 weeks ago

I figured most of the comments would be "thats too damn much money". Now only if Mossturd would make a bow these cheapo's will think they died and went to heaven. I've heard all the lines before, dead is dead, a kill is a kill, etc, etc, etc. Its beyond me why folks want to dog a guy that buys quality gear that gives him the best chance of taking game. I can kill alot of deer with my 870 smooth bore 12guage slug gun but I guarantee I can kill more with my Browning A-bolt fully rifled slug gun. Some of you guys need to strap that ancient pos onto your back and hike into the san juan mountains for a 10 day bowhunt and them come back here and tell us that the extra 3 pounds of weight and 10 inches of axle to axle length didn't bother you one bit.

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from ohiodeerhunter wrote 2 years 21 weeks ago

"Some of you guys need to strap that ancient pos onto your back and hike into the san juan mountains for a 10 day bowhunt and them come back here and tell us that the extra 3 pounds of weight and 10 inches of axle to axle length didn't bother you one bit."

If I could afford a 10 day bow hunt in the San Juan mts.-I would also be able to afford to buy a newer bow.I spent a lot of time rifle hunting in NW Montana-an extra 3 pounds makes a lot of difference.

It's not that we are "cheapos"-it's that we don't have that kind of money to spend. Not all of us can afford the sky- high prices of new bows,or carbon arrows,or laser range finders-some of us have to use what we have,or can pick up used for about 25% of the cost of new bows.

If you can afford all the newest gear-great-most of us can not,and that does not make us any less of a hunter.

If I had to start over,and replace all my gear-I couldn't do it,wouldn't be able to hunt for a few years-it would take a few years minimum to replace all the gear-a little at a time.

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from Walt Smith wrote 2 years 21 weeks ago

I have a 20+ year old Bear PolarII that kills deer dead every year. Its 45" axle to axle, I can't find a hard case that it will fit into, but I wouldn't trade it for a new bow if you gave it to me. Anyone who spends $1000 for a bow every couple years is freeking dumb in my book!

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from Bob81 wrote 2 years 21 weeks ago

Maybe I just don't understand most bowhunters. Here's what I don't get:

Why would you choose to hunt with a bow if not for the challenge? (ie. having to get closer to your game and then make a skillful shot.)

And if you are in it for the challenge, then why spend all this money attempting to minimize that challenge?

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from stickngar21 wrote 2 years 19 weeks ago

Just bought a 2010 Hoyt Alphamax. Best bow i've ever shot and definitely worth every penny

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from wildartstech wrote 2 years 7 weeks ago

I use an old Bear Whitetail Express. I purchased it 17 years ago when I was 13 years old. It's heavy, draws 60-ish Ibs with minimal let off but I can group arrows on a 8" paper plate target 80 yards away with it. Obviously it's beyond effective at that range but... anything within 30 yards is getting an arrow through it's heart

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from Bob81 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I am a traditional archer that uses a wooden recurve. You are absolutely right that a modern bow is far, far, far technically superior in effectiveness compared to traditional archery gear (or older compunds for that matter). However, if hunting for everybody was purely about effectiveness, people like me wouldn't exist.

Hunting, for me (and a lot of the other hunters I know) is only partially about having an animal in the back of the truck at the end of the day. It's at least equally about going on a trip with my buddies, spending time sitting in the woods thinking about life, and of testing my skill to lure an animal into close range. It's also about tapping into a tradition that my father, grandfather, great-grandfather, and so on also engaged in before me.

As soon as the newest top-of-the-line, $1,500 compound bow comes with a new feature that enhances my ability to accomplish those things, I'll retire my old recurve and go out and buy one.

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from WATCHINDEER247365 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Advancements are amazing, yes. Worth what they ask? No. The whole discussion was they're "worth every penny", hunters that have a proper funtioning bow that kills, it would not be reasonable to spend $1000s just to gain a little speed, and be a little quieter to accomplish the very thing they were doing with the older bow, kill deer. But thats the problem with so many things in this world. Everything is WAY overpriced. Having close friends that work in the manufacturing business, what it cost to create these bows are a mere fraction of what they ask for them. Ones will say alot was put into it, but it all boils down to buying a "name". The advancement made are not worth the asking price in the high-dollar bows.
NOT WORTH EVERY PENNY.

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from labrador12 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

My neighbor in Ak has made two trips to Africa and has shot just about anything you can think of. When I left to head on home he had two bucks so far. He shoots a long bow. I'm thinking that thats a tad slower than many of todays newest and fastest. Technology can help to replace skill and knoledge but its always expensive. 30 years experiance is expensive too, just not in money.

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from deanlikes2fish wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I need a new bow, can I have 1500 dollard plus another 300 for carbon arrows and bradheads. No? Yeah, thats what my wife said too.

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from ejunk wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

the only bow that's worth a dime to you is the bow that fits you.

yrs-
Evan!

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from RES1956 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

An archery dealer once made the statement to me that a bow is simply a device with which to launch an arrow and
with that I totally agree.
However, the manner in which it launches the arrow has changed dramatically in the last decade and will continue to improve. Less poundage giving more velocity, smoother to draw, less vibration at the shot, lighter weight etc. All of these things are incorporated in most of the newer bows on the market.
You don't need to spend a Grand on a new bow to get these advantages (unless it just makes you feel good helping Matthews pay for their ads which seem to appear on every other page of every archery publication out there)because there are some really good buys in new bows available.
Let's face it, technology that was new this year will be obsolete in a year or two, then your back buying another new bow to keep your ego pumped, thinking you've got the smack daddy of the archery kingdom. I bought a new bow a couple of years ago because I wanted to go to a lighter draw weight and I get the same velocity with my new bow as I did my former bow drawing 60#'s instead of 70. My new bow is shorter, lighter and smoother than my old bow, and get this, I paid less than $400 for it. To date, I have loosed but 6 arrows at deer with it; the results is six dead deer. I don't think they cared that the bow didn't have a $1000 price tag on it.
I hear what your saying lovetohunt, and agree with some of it. BTW, how long are you planning on keeping that Z7?

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from ohiodeerhunter wrote 2 years 21 weeks ago

"Some of you guys need to strap that ancient pos onto your back and hike into the san juan mountains for a 10 day bowhunt and them come back here and tell us that the extra 3 pounds of weight and 10 inches of axle to axle length didn't bother you one bit."

If I could afford a 10 day bow hunt in the San Juan mts.-I would also be able to afford to buy a newer bow.I spent a lot of time rifle hunting in NW Montana-an extra 3 pounds makes a lot of difference.

It's not that we are "cheapos"-it's that we don't have that kind of money to spend. Not all of us can afford the sky- high prices of new bows,or carbon arrows,or laser range finders-some of us have to use what we have,or can pick up used for about 25% of the cost of new bows.

If you can afford all the newest gear-great-most of us can not,and that does not make us any less of a hunter.

If I had to start over,and replace all my gear-I couldn't do it,wouldn't be able to hunt for a few years-it would take a few years minimum to replace all the gear-a little at a time.

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from Walt Smith wrote 2 years 21 weeks ago

I have a 20+ year old Bear PolarII that kills deer dead every year. Its 45" axle to axle, I can't find a hard case that it will fit into, but I wouldn't trade it for a new bow if you gave it to me. Anyone who spends $1000 for a bow every couple years is freeking dumb in my book!

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from Bob81 wrote 2 years 21 weeks ago

Maybe I just don't understand most bowhunters. Here's what I don't get:

Why would you choose to hunt with a bow if not for the challenge? (ie. having to get closer to your game and then make a skillful shot.)

And if you are in it for the challenge, then why spend all this money attempting to minimize that challenge?

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from mkorpal wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

"I don’t think they realize that these expensive bows kill deer better than those ancient bows do."

Kill better? A kill is a kill. I would rephrase that statement to say today's bows are more efficient and provide a hunter the opportunity to make a more humane kill if shot placement is off (by providing enough speed to blow through a shoulder, of course this will depend on what grain arrow/broadhead the hunter is using).

Overall, I agree that contemporary bows are much more efficient and better than yesteryear's bows but are they really worth EVERY penny? Personally I believe that depends on a lot of factors and what you consider a "top bow". A new Hoyt Carbon Element costs around $1,300. A new middle of the line Diamond or Bear turns in at $500 to $600. Now I wouldn't consider the latter two bows to be "top bows" but they still shoot darn good and are better than a bow "made in a toyshop 15 years ago". I just can't see how the Carbon Element, or some of the other bows that cost upwards of $1,000, could be worth EVERY penny.

Another factor to consider, as 'lovetohunt' points out, is confidence. Some guys who own these old bows are still shooting them because they are practically part of their body. These hunters have been shooting them for years and know their effective range so why buy a new bow? Heck they could save their pennies and get a rangefinder, instead of a "top bow", so they don't misjudge a shot by 5 yards.

What it all boils down to for me is what do I feel comfortable shooting and what can I afford without breaking the bank. I still shoot a 6 year old Bear. Is it better than the first compound Fred built? Of course. Was it a "top bow" back when I bought it? Not according to all of those guys who told me to buy a Mathews or BowTech for $300 more but I still shoot groups as well as they do. Was that original purchase worth every penny? For me it was but I still had an extra 30,000 pennies in my pocket because I didn't get that "top bow".

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Scratch,

That is a great example.

A good archer with bad bow = good shoot

A good archer with great bow = AMAZING SHOT

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from WATCHINDEER247365 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I own older bows I have new bows other than being a pound or two lighter, 30-50 fps faster and quieter, bows are bows. Created to sling a shaft with razor tip through an animal. I've used older bows with older expandables that blew thru bone without looking back, when people told me that expandables never would. Are the bows today worth every penny? Which bows are we talking about? The packages that cost $300+, that ones buy and are extremely pleased with and kill JUST AS GOOD, or the $1000+ bare bow that many buy just to be a little faster than the next guy. Buying the outrageously priced equipment just to make yourself SEEM better than someone else. Too many times I've seen ones buy new equipment just because someone else did and they have to "one up" the other. Its all about being CONTENT. I've learned a bow is a bow. Practice, skill and ability are the important factors. Are the expensive bows worth every penny? NO! Anyone that thinks otherwise is not rationally weighting the facts. Expensive bows don't make a better hunter, period. If your a good hunter, you can kill deer with any bow, period. (seen it proven to me) If ones want to spend $1000s to massage their egos, more power to them. Just because it cost alot doesn't make it better.

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from buckhunter wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

It is true the more expensive bows shoot better but when it comes time to make a kill shot it is not the price of the bow but the person shooting it.

I am a little uneasy with the "worth every penny" comment. Bows continue to be a poor investment for the hunter. Compared to a gun of equal value bows depreciate and wear out much faster.

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from ohiodeerhunter wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Why do I need to buy a new bow?
I shoot a Hoyt Gamegetter II- made about 1986.
It still puts an arrow all the way through a deer at 40 yards,it still hits where I'm aiming,I use two brands of arrows for hunting-Easton 2117 aluminum,or Easton XX-75 aluminum. Tried carbon arrows,I do like them,but still have plenty of 2117's and XX-75's.
I'm using 100 grain Thunderheads for broadheads,that's a recent switch from 125 grain Wasp's.
The 100 grain thunderheads get slightly better penetration in a block target.
I have a new cobra sight,new quiver,string silencers,and a stabilizer bar on the bow.
I do not shoot with a release,just can't get consistent hits using one- I use a three finger "glove" for finger protection.
I've shot a few newer bows,yes,a lot quieter,a lot faster,maybe a little bit more accurate.
If I can hit out to 40 yards, put every arrow in the kill zone,using the equipment I have why do I need a new bow?
I still kill deer-the longest shot I ever took at a deer was 42 yards,and it went down within 50 yards after being hit.
What is wrong with using what I have,and have been shooting for many years?

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from WATCHINDEER247365 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I actually regret spending the money on my Hoyt. I've got a older High country that was given to me that is just as good as the bows on the market now, just a little heavier in weight. I don't see the logic in spending $1000s just to improve what one has in that small of increments. O, there are far more important things in life than hunting.

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Well Watchingdeer it looks like you have the best
arguement so far. Especially in your last post. I mean 5 years ago nobody would hav even thought about buying a bow with a msrp of say $1500 or $1000. But nowdays it is the norm.

That being said, I will never go back to shooting the lower end bows after seeing how these high end bows perform.

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from kratch wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I can't argue that it is impressive to watch the new, expensive bows in action, but since I've shot through every deer I've shot at with my seven year old Browning, it's tough for me to justify upgrading. Besides, hunting in heavy wooded cover in michigan, it is pointless to get a bow that shoots flat out to 60 yards because I rarely have a clear shot anywhere past 30. Putting the arrow where it needs to go and having a short blood trail are my main objectives for a bow, and so far I've got no complaints. A faster bow might drive the arrows a little further into the ground, but I've never heard anyone ask "how deep did your arrow go?".

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from Proverbs wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

What is "expensive" to you? Defining that may have helped your point.

One thing for sure: Based on the manufacturers' own marketing material and the sales rep's claims, I don't think new bows are good buys at all. According to these claims and materials, the current bow is so much better than last years that many buyers from last year must have buyer's remorse.

Full disclosure: I have a 2010 model bow that is considered a mid-range bow. I sure don't look at it as a good buy and it can't be considered an investment, as any 2010 bow is now worth maybe 20 percent of what you paid for it.

I think new bows are some of the most overpriced tools that exist. And they are unique in that way. Let me explain:

1. Obvious comparison: Expensive rifles ($1,500 and up) are tools that can also be beautiful heirlooms. And they can be used with precision for generations. They don't lose much value, and if you buy the best they may well gain a little value.

2. Top-of-the-line knives: Same as rifles. They don't lose value and are just as effective in 50 years.

3. Top-of-the-line tools, from $100 German scissors to $1,000 socket sets. Unlike bows, they don't lose much value or effectiveness over time.

But bows lose value immediately. As a tool, my 2010 model is effective as long as I keep it tuned and refresh it with new strings at least once a year for another $100 each time.

Bows are very odd in that way. Unfortunately, too many people literally buy into marketing that you have to have the latest bow to get your animal (or at least look cool while doing it). An expensive misconception.

The primary reason I got a new bow is that it was getting too difficult to maintain my Fred Bear Polar II, and no amount of lithium could quiet the squeak in one of the metal wheels.

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Why does everyone keep comparing the price of rifles to bows?

Thats apples to oranges folks!

This arguement isnt over what holds its value more.

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from Montanagyrene wrote 2 years 21 weeks ago

Haven't tried bow-hunting (yet), so I'm not really qualified to comment on high-priced bows being 'worth every penny', but when I worked in a sporting goods store in Montana, I had a customer bring in a Weatherby rifle that had a Swarovski scope mounted on it. Unless he shot that setup much (which I kinda doubt), I'd be able to shoot just as well, and maybe even BETTER, with my trusty old, beat-up looking military-surplus .06, and straight 4x Leupold scope.

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from Levi Banks wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

How often do you get a chance at a bowshot over 40 yards anyway? In ideal conditions I am completely confident it's a dead deer out to 50 yards, but rarely do I have a clear shot with little wind beyond 40. There's usually a limb or something in the way. If you're shooting that far on a regular basis I suggest you learn to place your stands a little better, or be mobile and hunt from the ground. I bought an old used bow from a friend when he moved up to a newer model. When I make the shot (if I miss the blame has always been on me, not the bow) the deer is dead. The times i've made a bad shot wouldn't have been any better if I'd spent 1000 instead of 50 on my bow. My wife asked me what you get in a more expensive bow as I recently bought a new one (one of the cheapest Bear models). After reading this my answer's the same, a little faster, a little quieter, a little snazzier look, but not much really.

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

mkorpal,

My statement about them killing better is for the reasons you gave. Better penitration, accuracy, ect... And yes a kill is a kill.

Great arguements so far guys!

I knew this topic would get some good arguements contrasting what I had said.

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from Muleynut30.06 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

The only hunting that I think is truly worth every penny is my kings shadow camo wind defender jacket and good quality optics. In my opioion what this boils down to is practie pratice practice. A guy can go buy a new bow shoot a few arrows then go on a hunt and more then likely the bow will perform. However the guys who shoot with an older bow as said before is second nature they have put so many arrows down range its comfortable to them. Its the same with rifle hunters I know guys that will buy the newest long range package but the guys who have had the same gun for 30 years who know how it shoots always end up getting the game. Ill stand with you on the point that todays tech is more efficient but shoot ya down when you say its worth every penny cause sometimes you pay more for name.

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Muleynut

What about the guy that has the top end bow and also shoots 2,000 arrows a month?

Thats what I do, you can get just wicked accurate by doing that.

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from shazam wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I can go years up here without seeing a single deer during the season (bow or gun). I will take any advantage I can get, thank you very much.
:-)

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from jjas wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

If spending a grand on a bow every year puffs your feathers up, I say go for it.

I'm quite sure your local archery dealer loves you.

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from kratch wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

There is no question newer expensive bows are more efficient, but the fact remains that if you practice and know your limitations, it shouldn't matter what bow you are using. Knowing your effective range and waiting for a clean shot opportunity will allow you to put meat in the freezer. I know of a few hunters who take long, bad angle shots simply because they think their top-of-the-line bow's name will overcome a bad hit. The bottom line is, if you put your arrow where it's supposed to go, the cost of your bow won't matter.

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from Bob81 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I would like to add that if your only concern is effectiveness and ability to kill, let's just eliminate archery season altogether. After all, a rifle is much more effective than even the best compounds due to superior range and power. Why bother with a bow then?

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from f5mandopicker wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Marketing hype drives the industry and I continue to drink the Kool Aid. Will my newest bow ever be smooth enough and fast enough to truly satisfy me? I loved archery and its challenges when i got into it many years ago. Now I ask myself, is this still archery?

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Bob,

because I am a bowhunter, I don't care to shoot a deer with a rifle, I never have and probably never will.

By the way today on 11-11-11 I had a nice doe quartering tom me at 20 yards. I knew my set up had more then enough power to blow through her. So I settled my pin in the center of that shoulder a let it fly, sure enough that arrow went through her like she wasnt even there. The blood trail was 8 feet wide for about 20 yards.

Now I am not encourage people to take that shot, I had 100% confidance I could kill that deer. But if someone had an old bow and they hit where I did, well you might as well forget it!

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from Basheer Benhalim wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

The fact of the matter is that guys who shoot old rigs kill deer... The guys who shoot new rigs kill deer... That being said I get a new bow almost every other year if not every year. I like speed bows, I like shooting out to 65 yards. You can't do that with an old bow, they just weren't made to perform to those specs.

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from scratchgolf72 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

with you love to hunt.....its like the golfer that uses the same clubs he bought 15 years ago. sure they work, but you would be a lot better off with a brand new pair. more consistent and you hit the ball farther.

same goes for bows

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from wvboy1022 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I would have to say the newer broadheads and arrows are a bigger advantage then the bows almost. If you look and a 1950s Bear brand broadhead vs a Rage, G5, etc you wonder how they could be very effective. Heck, just a lil better than what the Indians used!

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from Hank111 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Lovetohunt- I know you are right, especially after decoying antelope on public land in Wyoming 2 months ago. I shoot the original Mathews Conquest that was made in the late 90's, the first year on the market. My deal is I am one of the few still shooting fingers, and I have not ever shot a bow any better. I have been given several new bows from guys I take hunting but they all either end up as high dollar fishbows or given back. My old Mathews always hits where it was pointing when I let the string go, maybe not the spot I wanted, but where it was pointing, thats just my fault. I would buy a new bow if they ever made one as perfect for finger shooting.

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from Pa deer hunter wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I would have to shoot you down compound bows are like computers you buy a top of the line new one this year and next year it's obsolete. They don't hold their value it isn't necessary to spend that much money on a good bow.

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Watchindeer,

Good arguement.

But to some people archery hunting is MORE the just a hobby. To me and many hunters, bow hunting and archery in general is a way of life. I live and breath archery, I shoot thousands of arrows per month. I appreciate the quality of high end bows. I would find it hard for me to spend $800+ on a rifle. but for a bow $800+ is not hard at all to part with.

But like I said you have great points, but just go top a shop and demo a nice bow. You will then realize how amazing they truly are.

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from WATCHINDEER247365 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

LOVETOHUNT

I HAVE, NOT IMPRESSED ONE BIT. My 5 year old Hoyt is all I need.

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Watchindeer,

Well I don't know what to tell you. You must not appreciate the advancements an archery over the years and how the great the new rigs shoot (anything post Mathews Swithback, so after 2005). But thats ok, every has there own opinions.

And a 5 year old Hoyt? Thats gotta be around when they had the Trykon, im not a Hoyt guy though so I dont know for sure. I am more of a Mathews, Elite, Strother, K&K, or anything Kevin himself has designed, like the SR-71.

A 5 year old Hoyt is still a great bow. And for you to go out and by a brand new Hoyt wouldnt be that much of an upgrade. Now If you were shooting a 1995 Hoyt, the upgrade to a current model would be more then worth the cost in my opinion.

But I like to get a new rig every 3 seasons. Thats just me, some guys get a new bow every season, and thats fine too.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

I've shot a few Bows 1/2 the price of my HCA FourRunner and when they are tuned right, they are just as accurate if not more and some are just as fast.

Now I'm still waiting after months for someone to show me why, I should buy a new bow

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from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Dave Hurteau, why should I buy a new bow?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Question, when is to much high tech is swatted tech making it more expensive?

food 4 thought

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Clay,

well draw cycles, efficiency, less noise, no vibe, back walls, and toughness are a few good reasons that these bows are better.

But I know your a rifle guy mostly, atleast that is what it seems like after my years on F&S. So I could understand if you want to keep you ol tried and true.

But for guys like me who havent shot a deer with a gun in a few years know and appreciate the quality of top end bows.

And a properly tuned bow?

My Z7 X is shooting bullet holes through paper and I can't even aim for the same spot under 40 yards, ive ruined to many arrows doing that!

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from lovetohunt wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

RES,

I plan on keeping my Z7 Xtreme for a while. Me and that bow make a great pair.

I plan to hunt with it for 3 seasons, then in the summer of 2014 possibly by a new bow and use My Z7 Xtreme as back up bow.

Or my other option is I know a guy that buys a new bow every year and sells his old bow for much cheaper then retail, this year he has ordered an Elite Answer and I hope to buy that and use that bow and my Z7 X for the next 6 years or so.

Then by that time the upgrades will be bigger then say me going out and buying a 2012 Mathews Helim as that bow is almost the same as my Z7 Xtreme.

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from TM wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

not worth every penny.

rifle from 10 years (or 20, or 50) ago, still a modern gun that holds its value.

bow from 10 years ago does not hold its value. And a bow from 50 years ago resembles a bow from 500 years ago. change is so fast in the bow arena that i would never pay full price for one. instead, buy one from 5 years ago on ebay for a 70 percent discount.

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from ohiodeerhunter wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Off topic-but important-is anyone other than me reporting all these posts that are advertisemnets/links to sites selling stuff?
I don't want to have to scroll past that stuff on every forum on this site-and if I want to go shopping for stuff-that's what I'll do-not waste time checking out ads on user comments boards.

Anyone else agree that these posts need to go?

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from Muleynut30.06 wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

lovetohunt your are correct if you can afford the bow and you practice with like you do then I have nothing to say but good for you and I hope your work pays off. My complaint is the guys who have more money then they know what to do with so the buy the best bow they can drop loads of money then never practice with it.

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from ohiodeerhunter wrote 2 years 21 weeks ago

"What about the guy that has the top end bow and also shoots 2,000 arrows a month?

Thats what I do, you can get just wicked accurate by doing that."

The guy who has what was a top-end bow 25 years ago,who shoots 2,000 arrows a month gets to be wicked accurate too-I may not be able to make 50-60 yard shots,but around here-most shots taken at deer are from 15-25 yds.
The arrow still hits where it's aimed,still goes through the deer,and the deer still drops fairly close to where it was when hit.

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from stickngar21 wrote 2 years 19 weeks ago

Just bought a 2010 Hoyt Alphamax. Best bow i've ever shot and definitely worth every penny

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from wildartstech wrote 2 years 7 weeks ago

I use an old Bear Whitetail Express. I purchased it 17 years ago when I was 13 years old. It's heavy, draws 60-ish Ibs with minimal let off but I can group arrows on a 8" paper plate target 80 yards away with it. Obviously it's beyond effective at that range but... anything within 30 yards is getting an arrow through it's heart

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from jay wrote 2 years 21 weeks ago

I figured most of the comments would be "thats too damn much money". Now only if Mossturd would make a bow these cheapo's will think they died and went to heaven. I've heard all the lines before, dead is dead, a kill is a kill, etc, etc, etc. Its beyond me why folks want to dog a guy that buys quality gear that gives him the best chance of taking game. I can kill alot of deer with my 870 smooth bore 12guage slug gun but I guarantee I can kill more with my Browning A-bolt fully rifled slug gun. Some of you guys need to strap that ancient pos onto your back and hike into the san juan mountains for a 10 day bowhunt and them come back here and tell us that the extra 3 pounds of weight and 10 inches of axle to axle length didn't bother you one bit.

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from spiaailtli wrote 2 years 22 weeks ago

Expensive new bows make poor hunters believe they are good. Good hunters can make their own bows and arrows from trees...They know how to sneak up on deer and kill them up close and personal.

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