Becasue it's more fun sniping at you! LOL

Bella, you laid out your argument very well.

As for the Christians out there, I claim (with Biblical verification) that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Christians are just as sinful as the next guy. The primary thing that really separates Christians is the fact that they have put their faith in Jesus to interced on their behalf and to focus their life on glorifying God. Even then we all still see many failures out there.

I will admit that I do not know a lot about the Tibetan Buddhists, but I do know that the gospels are very clear that Jesus is the only path to heaven, and thus cannot exist as a co-religion with others. What I'm claiming is that to believe in the Bible, then other religions cannot be added in alongside because it teaches that Jesus is the only path.

I agree with your assessment that there is no conflict between science and religion. Both have been used and abused to further those seeking power and control over the years (global warming anyone?) yet science and religion are man-made entities. Science was created to investigate and learn about the natural world around us. Religion was created by man to understand diety. Both were created to investigate, and although on a parallel path, do not really intersect.

The reference to Stalinism is a bit off in my opinion. As a Christian, I believe that all men have a free choice in what they believe. If God chose to reveal himself to all with a great booming voice from heaven every day at noon, then who would believe in anything different? I believe that God reveals himself in subtle ways and speaks to the hearts of those who are ready for belief. I cannot make anybody else a Christian, and God doesn't force it on anyone. My job is to try to point the way and tell of what He has done in my life. I have a problem with Christians trying to make people culturally "Christian" before that person's heart is in order. I do swear fealty to God. He has changed my life for the better to such a magnitude that I will eternally grateful. I cannot help but to praise Him every day. I'll definitely slip up here and there, but I never claimed to be perfect. All I can do is keep on trying.

Sadly i would have to say that at this point we are not a christian nation, we were however founded on the basis of christianity. one of americas major problems is that we have lost sight of our christian values. we have pretty much as a nation denied God(Triune Father, Son, Spirit) if we as a nation could go back to God we then may be able to solve some of the other problems we are facing. the only problem is people are to worried about themselves, and not willing to live by any standards, people would rather do what they want without any morals. we are unfortunately a corrupt sinful moral less nation.

Well stated point of view, Bella. Plus one for that one!

WMH

Hateful, mmm? May I ask where you came up with that. And where you get I made up lies? I can tell, you like to base your bias on self-detained aggression. I will pray for you about that. Thanks for helping me understand your motives. Like I said you like to argue. God bless.

When you agree with passing laws to limit the free exercise of religion in Government, Schools ect... under the so called Establishment Clause "you claim," doesn't that contradict the right for free exercise of religion?

Could you show a copy of the Constitution your reading, cause I can't find?
""separation of church and state:
UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION, FIRST AMENDMENT, ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE:""

In my copy?

We have been based on biblical teaching, they are plasterd all over our nation. They defently played part in forming our Nation and are woven into the fabric of our society undeniably, though you will deny it. But someday you will have your Godless country and I'm sure you will be happy with that.

P.S. I agree with Obama that we are no longer a Christian nation. And I believe we once were. "But that’s just my opinion" and does not mean that the majority in the country have lost thier belief In Jesus Christ as there Lord and Savour nor Does it mean that the majority believe as Bella. Nor does it mean the majority are Muslims. But it does seem that a few people seem to have more tolerance for many other religions, as long as it's not Christianity.

A Principle of The Traditional American Philosophy

3. Unalienable Rights - From God

". . . endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights . . ." (Declaration of Independence)

The Principle
1. The traditional American philosophy teaches that Man, The Individual, is endowed at birth with rights which are unalienable because given by his Creator.

Bella,

I think you have just been witnessed to!

WMH

Does anyone have a good description of Schizophrenia?
Not exactly sure why I thought of that, I was just reading along, and the word kind of jumped out at me. Hmph, go figure.

I don't think we are a Christian nation,we have a freedom of religion,don't we?Though a large majority,including me,are Christian,people can believe what they want to.Kind of an off-topic message board for Feild and Stream.com,but,okay.

In my last paraph I did not intend to imply that I am or could ever be a father, I meant only to suggest that I can understand how a muy macho studmuffin might be justly proud of his way with the Laydeeze. Beachmasters and Silverbacks should be proud. I ain't immune to biology myself, it's just that I am happily married to my very own bear.

Sorry, walking away from computer messes up the grammar a bit.

The federal government hasn't done the pushing of a particular religion on the people.

Well the fact that life begins at birth has yet to be proven scientifically. The baby doesn't get to choose life or death. I do think that if someone were sucking puppies out of a dog before they were born then the average person would call the authorities on them. I regard human life above that of animals.

I meant to say "do you have no character" not morals. Sorry for the slip up.

The whole fundamentalist christian thing seems to maximise suffering Rather than abort unwanted children fundies would rather have them grow up suffering, inflicting more suffering on the humans around them until society has enough and executes them. This seems par for the course for a religion that represents itself with an executioners frame. Christianity condemns pleasure seeking and extolls suffering. Most "Saints" are on the list because of martyrdom rather than profound thought, again more suffering. The primary activity of many fundimentalists seems to be consigning other people to Hell (more suffering) and being annoying (still more suffering). Naturally I object strenuously when fundamentalists want to take my rights away and exercise hegemony over my flesh and blood (because obviously I ain't been suffering enough).I object to anybody who thinks their mission in life is to go about annoying people and trying to make them feel mizerable. Many of the fundies I have met seem to assume that I woiuld be soo much happiuer if I stopped thinking for myself and joined the choir in those cold hard pews. But I been there before, and I know precisely how much that sucked for me. He who is without sin, let him throw the first stone. And If I happen to need an abortion and fundie goons are in the way, I am just likely to start chucking stones. I don't share fundie beliefs and opinions, I see nothing rational or desirable in any system that marginalizes half the population. Both Islam and fundieism place a lot of emphasis on marginalizing women, so I find it completely understandable that you fundie men out their blogging might prefer a world where women are only property and not considered quite human, but that ain't the world we happen to live in. You can't give me rights, then take them away and not expect me to get really really pissy about it. Nor can you consider it just to do so.
Ranger 2 if you give money to charity you are just funding an industry that feeds like a LAMPREY off guilt ridden westerners and has little impact in the third world. Sure send off your dollars and salve that guilt. Orgs like the "christian childrens fund" prey upon the gullible. I have worked in fundraising and I know how much goes to "overhead" and how much actually feeds people (not much). If a child is sitting under a ragged tarp in the Sudan, belly distended with malnutrition, one meal of gruel scarcely helps a child likely already doomed and dead. It would have been better for the child in question if the Janjaweed militia hadn't killed her family, driven off the livestock and poisoned the wells. Sometime such luckless human flotsam gets taken and enslaved, then redeemed with ransom raised from christians, then reenslaved and ransomed again several times, becoming a cash cow for Islamic extremism. One bunch of fundies funds another. But for the girl in the camp there is onbly suffering and death, perhaps interspersed with a bit of exploitation here and there. And Ranger 2, this happens 100,000 fold and you can't do squat about it. If you are going to donate to feed the hungry donate food, lots of it, rather than fund the charitable industries that leech off the poor in the name of "Helping" them. If you want to feed the hungry, feed the hungry where you are at and don't pay somebody else to do it. Godless corporations have taken over charity just like they have taken over health care and industrialized food. The Head of the Pine Street Inn homeless shelter wears expensive suits and has a limo and a driver, par for the course these days. Read "Freakanomics" dude.

Rabbitpolice, where do you get the notion that I have any interest in determining who lives and who dies? As you are the one who wants to tell me what to do with my body, (not vice versa) and condemn me to the nether regions I think you want that power for yourself. How much of Death have you even witnessed? I tell you I have lost many family members and many many good friends, and then there are the strangers, neighbors, clients, accident victims..and so on, I've been exposed to a lot of death and I'll tell you one thing, If you ain't figured it out, life is terminal dude. The world is scattered with corpses, society is built on the bones of those who have passed. Cherish the living, for death visits soon enough.
I like HSUS and PETA about as much as you do WAMtnhunter, which is to say not much. They are excellent examples of extremeists with a fundraising arm.
I gotta call from our own beloved NRA last night. The phonedrone started going on about the usual talking points then he started off on this tangent on how the UN had taken over Canada and I had to yank his leash a little. I have Canadian friends who actually own handguns and yes Canadian Handgun control laws are pretty lame But, she still has her legal pistol and no, Canada hasn't been taken over by the UN. (she woulda told me). At this point I had to ask the young man if he was shilling for money and he admitted he was. I gently told him I had purchased the magazine for a 2 year subscription and that was all the money he was getting for now. It irritated me that a political organization I have already given support to would try to scare more money out of me with facetious rumors I already know to be false! Money pollutes everything when folks try to rattle peoples cages with fearmongering to raise lucre.
Back on the abortion thing for a minute, In all honesty I have never needed an abortion, nor wanted one. I raised my daughter though and If she ever needs one I don't want to have to explain to her how we lost her rights for her. However we saw that she had a proper education in human biology, so she is unlikely to kindle unawares and ignorant. This is the other thing though, Most fundies are also against children getting educated about the functioning of their own bodies, and would rather have children go into adulthood ignorant of human biology. Kids have to know how to protect themselves and the Bible is not "Our Bodies Ourselves". If one is going to eliminate Abortion access one needs proper comprehensive sex education even more than if one has free and liberal access to contraception. But the virgin ears of fundies would rather people (especially girls) remain ignorant.
A funny thing about education, Poor women in poor societies often bear as many children as they can. For them, their children are their only wealth. Having many children (if you can bear them) is a survival strategy in marginal circumstances. Kids die, so have a lot of kids and perhaps a few will survive to take care of you when you are decrepit.
But educate women and the demographics changes in a generation. Educated women invariably choose to bear limited numbers of children and invest resources on the few, rather than spread them across many offspring so all are marginalized. Societally the strategy of investing a lot in only one child generally leads to that progeny (and thereby the family) gaining advanced social status and much better circumstances for individuals than the woman as uneducated brood mare approach. Education is the key and the only path to going upclass in the modern world. However for women to implement this plan they need access to birth control or the assets they might intend to invest in one child become diluted by competition.
Now as a FATHER, I can understand having great pride in having many many many children. Ghengis Khan fathered half of Mongolia, but he was the great Khan and he could set up his blow bys properly (if his Chinese scribes took their names down after the soiree' was over and the yurts moved on, but, How many of you guys are as rich as Ghengis Khan? Most guys who sow their seed as widely as the Khan don't bother to stick around for the nurturing bit. Whose kid would you have rather been? I think I might choose to be from the little family and get the college education and the dance classes and the pony etc, rather than the huge family where one only gets handmedowns to wear, only gets meat once every other week and where finishing public school would be an acheivement. (Actually I came from the middle of a middle sized family, and I put myself through college after I got outa the Air Farce, but the first case mighta been nice, maybe next life if I'm good.) But women are programmed to think the long view, there are more old grannies out there than old geezers, women tend to live longer than men and take a longer view of things.

My 2 cents would be we are a nation in turmoil,It just keeps getting worse an worse.Icant understand why there are people starving in our country?Idont understand why prayer or the pledge of allegiance is ridiculed in our shcools?And it sickens me to watch a man welcome home the bodies of our soldiers while entertianing the thought of sending more.Iguess theres just a lot Idont understand.IMHO.could very well stand for"in my house only"

Just to clarify, forgive me for my Illiteracy. Are you saying that scientific "Theory" does not take faith to believe in, with out any regard for facts not yet provided? Not trying to adjutate you just trying to clarify in my own mind what you mean by saying that:

quote: "Science is falsifiable and testable by experiment, religion is not. Scientific beliefs change with new evidence, religious beliefs don't change because of new evidence. They are not even remotely the same thing."

I understand testable by experiment, but falsifiable and change with new evidence? That would mean that Science is not definite and would also mean that it takes faith to believe in, because it is certain when it is proven uncertain?

Just because there is no evidence to prove science wrong now doesn't mean it would not be proven wrong in the future, do to new evidence, Am I right?

And also, I understand you to think there is no evidence of God?
I will not provide evidence to you, as I know I cannot convince you of him, and I have no evidence that will convince you any way. I am just trying to clarify. And I know that you will say its because I can't produce evidence, that’s ok, I just know that I will not gain any ground and we will end up just arguing. I am just trying to understand your thinking? As I'm understanding you understand my thinking already, no need to explain my side.

Andy H. we never were a christian nation except rhetorically! Politicians frequently use their "christianity" as a flag for the gullible to line up behind. The politicians, self aggrandizing, truth bending sorts bent on political power are never christian by their actions, only by way of the blather they spew to shill for your vote. Many of the most "christian" pols, shrill in their claims of rightiousness are then caught fondling underage nubile of one gender or another, caught with hustlers and whores, or caught engaged in some morally dubious act or another that makes their supposed piety a brazen lie.
Our government itself cannot be called christian by it's actions, either. In past years our government has made war on other nations for reasons both justified and otherwise. While I will always support warfare when out cause is just, this has not been the case in recent years, where our government (albeit under "christian" leadership, caused people to be imprisoned tortured and killed, caused lands to be laid waste and cities burned none of which would ever be condoned by Jesus or ANY conceivable interpetation of his words as written in the new testament. If you go by old testiment standards, sure genocide, burning cities etc. perfectly cool with YHWH (He'd even help if you were CHOSEN). But that isn't christianity, which is focussed on the words and actions of Jesus rather than King David.
So no, our nation is not a christian nation except in rhetoric, neither its actions nor it's founding documents reflect christianity. American history does not reflect a pious people in a rightious nation. Rather the opposite! So claim America is christian if you like! It is still rhetoric,
stemming from one individuals desire to foist their own agenda on others religious agenda on others, a notion which is in itself very unchristian. People are supposed to be able to choose even if certain reactionaries would like to force the issue. So If you are a christian, good for you, go forth and heed the words of your Savior and "Judge not lest ye be judged and love thy neighbor as thyself" . Real christianity is very simple and very very hard especially for prideful self absorbed egotistical self rightious Americans. Try it out sometime.

Don't make assumptions about my beliefs. You have no idea who I am, what I have experienced, or precisely what I profess or to Whom I may address my prayers. However Christianity is an open book, that I am fairly familiar with (5 years of seminary, a long time ago). I have great respect for Christianity, as Yeshua (Jesus) was a great Rabbi and Teacher. However He himself said to heed nobody who calls himself by his name, just as he told you to pray in secret, love others and be nonjudgemental. People who call themselves "Christians" these days are usually totally unwilling to have anything to do with being nonjudgemental and are much more into picking the next Antichrist and who is going to Hell that about being merciful and forgiving. As I have written, being a Real Christian is very very hard, I have met only one man who qualified and met every standard, that man has my love and respect (unfortunately the man is legally blind and will never read this). But then I have the same love and respect for the devout Tibetan Buddhists I know. Both faithways are equally true and much of the gospel has no conflict with the Dharma. Still neither of these are my faith, but I am under no directive to prosletize for my beliefs. In my mind only those who are insecure in their beliefs need to justify them by shilling for more adherants. Part of the Knowing is the knowledge that as the Gods are real, they will recruit their own.

There really is no conflict between science and religion. There never was except in the minds of those who would control the minds and thoughts of others for their own purposes. Gods have always rewarded the virtue of truth seeking, they still do today.
The Gods themselves debate, and so should we. In the whole Monotheism versus poly/pantheism, agnosticism thing, we see the struggles of men reflected. Monotheism- there is,or can be only one God, can be equated with politics thusly...There is only one Leader (but which one to follow). This I suppose is fine if you are a follower, but contrast Polytheism to our government and you have a better match. After all Our Democracy first evolved in Athens by polytheistic Goddess worshippers (Praise Athena).
Do you really want to swear fealty to an ETERNAL Ruler? Get to tow the line, click your heels, bow deep and sing His praises FOREVER! Isn't that a lot like Stalinism?

Trust me, there is plenty of free space still out there. Too many people are being displaced into the urban locations... its been the Communist (and now liberal) ideal to force the populations into cities and then they become more dependent. I've driven through west Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, even in SE California and seen nothing for miles and miles. We haven't even begun to overpopulate the earth yet. If you were to take 6 billion people, have them stand 3 feet apart to their left, right, front, and back, you would have a square that is 44 miles by 44 miles. (I know that the oxygen required in this one spot would not be sufficient for survival, but this is a surface area issue, this wouldn't realistically happen).

I see that you are painting the picture of a pregnant woman as a victim. It still takes two for a pregnancy (without the science lab of course) and please don't use the rape/incest instance because that makes up less than 1% of abortions. Over 70% are because of unwanted pregnancy. People have to take responsibility for their actions. It is sad that our society has gotten to the point where everyone thinks they can do whatever they want and don't have to face any consequences for their actions. Choices have consequences. Anybody that says otherwise is lying or thinks that they are above the law. There are thousands of couples out there who are infertile and would love to adopt.

They do give dogs abortions, I used to work for I vet and I've watched. Unborn puppies look like italian sausage.
Consciousness doesn't end at death and certainly may precede birth. The Bardo Thodol teaches that we find new bodies and incarnate into them again and again. If a would be incarnate finds a fetus unsuitable, it moves on and finds another. I realize modern christianity denies the veracity of reincarnation, but I have seen far too much evidence for the transmigration of souls to ever deny it. It is also true that not all souls choose to reincarnate, but most do. Christianity and Buddhism both teach an eventual ascent to heaven/nirvana (in essence the same) but christianities assertion that we are given only one life to live was not held by early christians and gnostics who adhered to the Greek concept of metempopsychosis (ie reincarnation).
In my mind it is better for a woman with a quickening she does not want or cannot care for to abort than carry a child to term who will not be loved and will be deprived of resources and opportunities. In the Old South, abortion was considered a crime because black babies were worth money to the whites who claimed to own them. Their enslaved mothers might abort their babies rather than to bring them into a world of slavery and suffering. Similarly in a locale where enslaved blacks outnumbered Slaver whites in ratios greater than 10 to one if a white woman aborted a (noncolored) baby she was not doing her brood mare best to keep the numbers of the dominant castes up to continuing the hegemony. Of course every man jack of the slaving class were proud christians and they forced their christianity on the slaves they claimed were property. Southern evangelical christianity preserves these attitudes even today, even in African American churches originally founded through forced conversion of slaves! Many men (black and white)do not see women as other than amusements or broodstock even today. A woman's right to choose is her freedom. When men get pregnant then they can decide for themselves whether to have abortions or not. Jesus didn't say word one about abortion. The only thing Jesus said about homosexuality was to refer to his best buddy John as "the beloved". I don't know about you but I only use such a term to refer to my husband. Perhaps you guys are different, but the implication is that Yeshua was awfully fond of John (Yohan). At any rate those are my opinions, based on observation and scholarship. Folks out there should likely be glad that I am a live-and-let-live kinda girl and don't push my agenda on the world in general. I only wish others would extend their fellow citizens the same favor.