It's very disappointing to see such ignorant non-sense being used to mislead the hunters and the public in PA. Claiming that the "deer herd has been taken to record lows across much of the state" not only lacks any factual merit, it's a blatant lie.

Less than a century ago there were only several thousand deer left in PA. Today, over 100,000 deer are killed on PA roads and 300,000 are harvested by hunters every year. This harvest ranks PA in the top 5 states for deer harvests in the entire country.

To be clear, in no way do I support everything the PGC does. However, I stand opposed to anyone who misleads the public by creating their own "facts," and then uses said "facts" as the basis for their argument and criticism of the PGC.

Since I'm in PA, I'm taking a close look at the PGC's Deer Management Plan...it's 148 pages. So far, they lay out decades of data and research, which makes it hard to argue that "they don't know what they are doing." It is very interesting to me, and I did not expect it to be.

They even use quotes like this interspersed through the document because they know this has been a controversial issue through the years:

"Sportsmanly chivalry has become so deep-rooted in the conservation-minded hunters of Pennsylvania that we are finding the second step in game restoration the hardest -- getting sportsmen to realize that it is just as important to limit the number of a species to within its food supply …"
Ross Leffler, January 29, 1931

It would appear a good Deer-Habitat Relationship is critical and one of their defining measures of a strong herd. PigHunter points out another one of their main concerns; vehicular safety.

It would seem to me that they have and are gathering data, analyzing it, and making decisions in a very scientific manner. They know they are going to anger some hunters but they believe they are acting in the best interest of the Commonwealth. I would think that scientist that the opposition bring in don't have access to the level of data the PGC's scientists do. My tendency is to lean towards trusting the PGC.

On page 79 they lay out "Decision Rules For Deer Management Recommendations" and it is a prescriptive process laid out to dictate how they are to manage deer population year-to-year. It is based upon the health of the forest habitat primarily. It's rooted in historical data of the deer populations, other wildlife, and state & federal studies of the environment.

DennyF, thanks for providing the above link. I now have a little more understanding about the other side of the story. And,I now understand your anger.

Got to tell you though that the personal attacks thrown around earlier this week were not helping. I appreciate you taking the time to rationally discuss this issue.

so taterd or dennyf, why are their only newcomers that support you. you make YOURSELF look good by making multiple accounts and adding +1 to your posts, are you really that low in life that you have to make multiple accounts on a hunting forum to make your self look good while discouraging other huntiers with your ignorannt egomaniac self

biodouche???? isnt that a personal attacking jagoff move?

I really need to backtrack and +1 myself....

well, Sexy-dexy-Tater-totter... I'm bored. So, maybe I'll check back in at some later time.

It's miller-time for me... and my wife wants to hang or something. I hope you got a nice happy home to step back into when we're all done being children here.

Also, get outside sometime bro!

Sincerely,
JT

And Dexy... cool 80's band. sweet that rocks. My handle refers to the p0rnogr4pher, Jackie Treehorn, in the 1996 movie "The Big Lebowski."

haha! that's great! the "real" Denny F shows up here and now it kind of casts doubt on everything that "DennyF" bantered on about.

TaterD & Dexy... what say you? It's sort of odd that the 3 of you seem to alwasy make posts on the same issues... and also I noticed that all of your comments are always +3 almost right after they are posted.

So, Denny Fillmore why have these people decided to impersonate you here?

I saw "DennyF" and Denny Fillmore." Not Dennis. DENNY. I guess it's a coincidence that two DENNYS are interested in the same thing on F&S.

I'm a lifelong fisherman and outdoorsman with minimal large game hunting background. Just never had all of the opportunities you lucky guys have had. That's all changing. I guess we've come to similar points at different stages in life, eh?

But that's neither here nor there boys. I don't drink the same flavor koolaid as y'all, but I bet we agree on more than you think.

We cannot trust each other, so what's the point anymore? I'll admit I strayed off topic for some laughs, but I promise you I am only one man and have no aliases. I also have no agenda or even work in this "industry." I did certainly learn a lot and have formed some of my own opinions. Thanks for that. It was ultimately going to end this way though.

I'll be retiring this "handle" but keep an ear to the ground out there. And keep up the suspicion of everyone who disagrees with you as being anti-hunting. I guess it's your way or the highway.

Arrivederci and good luck with your hunts always, Hugs & Kisses...
Jackie Treehorn

The Dude Abides

"Btw guys, i looked up that dennyfillmore fella. Another environmentalist. An officer at pennfed. Figures."

Yep, not an officer, but do belong to the PA Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs (PFSC). PA's oldest sportsmen's org at 79 years and still going. Protecting the rights of gunowners, hunters and anglers all that time, as well as working to protect wildlife habitats, clean streams and the environment, to boot.

Gov. Corbett is signing the "amendment" to our Mentored Youth hunting law tomorrow, allowing an adult mentor to let a Mentored Youth use the adult's doe tag this fall. PFSC had lots of help in getting that passed in the Legislature, but many of our members helped along the way. The lady I mentioned above, that was villified in the magazine poll, did most of the heavy lifting on that one.

Next week, we expect him to sign the just-passed Castle Doctrine bill, allowing Pennsylvanians more leeway in the exercise of deadly force in self defense. Another bill that PFSC worked hard to get passed (along with many others) and signed into law.

Yeah, we're "just" a bunch of environmentalists. ;O)

"You are getting yourself worked up into a hysterical frenzy here. Anger has distorted your thought process."

Sorry, though initially that you meant Taturd, there? ;O)

Yep, all lies. Must be, because someone who remains anonymous on the net, said so?

Nothing untrue about the Wellsboro Gazette online poll and one person's feeble/futile attempt at rigging it. That is exactly how it happened. Nothing else I have stated here is untrue either, for that matter. But feel free to keep on with the exaggerations, rants, mindless accusations and other bits of blather.

Great representation of Pennsylvania's hunters, on a national magazine's web site forum. I bet the rest of the kids on PA Outdoors are all pretty tickled?

>To answer the question about PFSC "numbers", most of the decline in member clubs was the result of the recent dues increase to those member clubs (first increase in many years). We have two staffers at the state office in Harrisburg, plus many volunteer members who take care of whatever needs attended to, which has always been the case.

We have never inflated our membership numbers (based on memberships in sportsmen's clubs belonging to PFSC), unlike some other reputed PA sportsmen's orgs, whose current numbers usually rise and fall, depending on which org official is being asked.

>As for support/opposition to gas drilling, PFSC has never opposed it. All we ask, is that state and federal drilling regs are followed, in order to protect water quality, air quality, wildlife and their habitats. PFSC hasn't been affilated with NWF in several years.

>The "gas money" we received, is from an educational/informational arm of the gas drilling industry, not directly from any drilling entity.

Not all drilling companies operating in PA, belong to it, but the largest ones do. And that "money" goes towards helping to provide the Hunter/Trapper Education issue of On Target, for those taking HTE courses. None went into "the coffers" of the org. HTE-specific issues of On Target have been offered for many years.

As an additional comment on "gas drilling money", USPee boasted about getting some money from that industry, long before we were approached by an industry education/information entity, about their support and cooperation in disseminating drilling info to the sporting public.

No idea of how many "non-hunters" belong to PFSC as individual paying members, but they number in the hundreds and I know many of them personally and have for years. All those I know personally, hunt. Many also fish, trap, hike and watch birds, as well. All would appear to be concerned about conservation, too.

PWF is a part of PFSC, not NWF. If there are still some links to NWF's site, so be it. I am not involved in the web site, nor am I responsible for whose links might appear. As previously noted, NWF severed their affiliation with PFSC years ago.

Continue to blather and rant. You and your "friends" illustrate daily, what one small part of one side of the deer debate in PA, is comprised of: Ill-mannered louts, with little of anything useful to add to the discussion.

That foolishness didn't last long on most other forums, one hopes it will fade away here too, eventually?

900,000 licensed hunters killed in excess of 300,000 deer in PA during this past season. Amounts to roughly a third of us, which isn't much to complain about, for the vast majority of PA's deer hunters. License sales overall last year, were down a tad less than 2% compared to the previous year, which is well below what most other states with good deer numbers, have experienced.

Other than no longer having in excess of 1.5 million deer in PA now, compared to what we probably had when Herd Reduction commenced, exactly what is your problem, other than a poor attitude, generally?

If not mistaken, Ohio (and other states that employ check stations and other systems), still refer to their harvest figures as "estimated"? I have read a few reports from OH/DNR over the years and it's my impression, that while they're happy with their compliance rates, they still realize they have not accounted for each and every deer killed?

And IIRC, some states that have had check stations for some time, are now reconsidering whether they're actually "worth it", or not, for gathering more accurate deer kill data?

PA's kill estimates, as you know, are based on reporting rates arrived at by PGC personnel checks at deer processors; WCO field checks "in season", etc and then comparing how many physically-checked deer were actually reported via existing reporting methods vs how many know deer kills, were not reported.

That is a method of statistical analysis that has been used for a very long time by many states and found to be a valid system for estimating deer kills.

While biologists might he happier with a reporting rate higher than the current 35 to 40%, they can do their estimates based on whatever the known reporting rate happens to be, once that year's rate has been established via the above method.

I have no reason to suspect anything is being done to "fudge the figures". I've worked at the Eastern Sports and Outdoors show in Hbg. for many years. When PGC had a terminal in their booth some years ago, to look up deer reports returned, everyone I know who had killed a buck or doe and sent in their report cards that year, were listed on that data base. Several hunters I know that had killed deer, but who I suspected had refused to send in their cards, were not listed.

Never made much sense to me, why some hunters can't take a few minutes to fill out a SUPPLIED, postage-paid report card and comply with the reporting rquirement by sending it in?

Thanks to the efforts of the environmentalist extreme movement, a few posters acconts have been removed and posts removed from this thread. There were quite a few relavent facts stated by these gentlement, and some of them hadnt gotten out of line, yet because of the incessant whining and complaining for damage control purposes surrounding the Pa deer plan, the whiners got their wish. At least 3 of those guys i know from other boards and were in no way "SPAMMERS" like one moron here claimed.

Anyway, just though that dozens of posts disappearing from this thread not support the failing deer plan in Pa should be explained. Thanks.

And i agree...

Rosenberry and others needs fired. BADLY.

"Not sure why the confusion over the "whining"? The original topic consisted of complaining about current deer management and a demand to fire the chief PGC deer biologist, Chris Rosenberry."

SO? ITS MUCH NEEDED AND DESERVED ACCORDING TO THE BELIEFS OF THE PA SPORTING RANKS.

"Several have offered counterpoints to those complaints."

I HAVENT SEEN THAT. ALL I SEE IS SOME BASIC CHITCHAT, ONE GUY GETTING CAUGHT LYING ABOUT BEING A HUNTER, AND YOUR DAMAGE CONTROL ATTEMPTS THAT HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO SUBSTANCE TOWARD REFUTING THE INITIAL POST.

"My guess, is that posts were removed and posters dropped, due to duplicate registrations, posing as others and poor behavior on the part of those who insisted on presenting their case with distortions, unsupportable accusations and plain foolishness?"

I BELIEVE I HAVE SEEN YOU USE EVERY ONE OF THOSE EXCUSES ON THE POLITICAL MOTIVATED BOARD THAT YOU YOURSELF MODERATE. EVEN WHEN THEY DO NOT APPLY AT ALL TO THE SITUATION. BUT YOU CANNOT QUESTION MODERATION AND WIN, AND YOU KNOW THAT ALL TOO WELL DONT YOU..

I would never be confused as an "environmental extremist" by anyone with an ounce of common sense, or an ounce of brains."

IVE SEEN MANY PEOPLE ON MANY BOARD REFER TO YOU AS EXACTLY THAT. AND FROM WHAT I KNOW OF YOU FROM THE LAST 8 OR 10 YEARS THEY ARE SPOT ON THE MONEY.

YOU ARE A HUNTER? SO ARE A FEW OTHER LICENSE BUYING EXTREMISTS. JUST ASK LATHAM. JUST ASK TED WILLIAMS OF AUDUBON FAME.

"perfect" everywhere right now? Nope."

ITS FAR FROM PERFECT EVERYWHERE BASICALLY AND ITS ALL BECAUSE OF PGC ACTIONS NOT CHANCE. SEE THE AUDUBON DEER SHAM THAT EVERYTHING IS BASED ON. ANYONE SUPPORTING SUCH HOGWASH HAS THEIR HEAD IN A DEEP DARK DANK PLACE.

.

Utter nonsense on most accounts, but hey, you have your opinions and frankly, you are welcome to them. Even if most of them have little basis in reality?

I've been listening to this silliness for most of the past 10 years now, primarily from those who became accustomed to seeing dozens (and dozens) of deer on opening morning of firearms deer seasons by the late 90s and cannot handle that there are now far fewer deer in some areas.

They (and you, apparently) now demand that we again have more and more deer, to keep you happy again?

You guys that believe these things are welcome to worship at the Slinsky/USP and Eveland/ACSL altars of hyperbole, shameless self-promotion and idiocy.

No thanks. I tend to believe what I see with my own eyes and have seen over the past 50 years, as far as deer numbers and what having had far too many of them in many areas, led to.

Yowl about Audubon, Rosenberry, etc all you want to. Fact is, PA's deer herd was allowed to expand for far too long and what we have now, is the price we all had to pay to set things right again.

Whitetail deer are more than capable of rapidly expanding their numbers in a fairly short period of time, IF afforded good habitats within which to expand. They have already "bounced back" fairly well where I've hunted for the past 50 years. They will eventually rebound in most other areas, given good habitats.

The deer herd hasnt "bounced back" in my area or any other that im aware of except maybe some very localized area where people just quit hunting. Otherwise the harvest numbers nor the herd estimates according to the audit...neither show the herd bouncing back. In fact its been a near steady downhill slide for the last 10 years.

You dont have a herd bounce back with nearly 2 million tags plus constantly adding more opportunity every other year in addition. It just DOES NOT happen.

Good luck with the chucks. Fortunately (or unfortunately if you are a farmer i guess) we still have plenty of chucks. They absorb a bullet well and are fun to hunt.

THE DOCUMENTATION OF PA GAMELESS COMMISSION DEER MISMANAGEMENT & FRAUD:

CLICK HERE

I can not believe that these people are still working at P.G.C. Only in Pa. The environmentalist crazies are running our "hunting" and game management. Never thought I would see such a thing in my life time. Just goes to show you how easy it is for others to take advantage of us with no real organization looking out for our well being here.

"They're baaaack"!

Say it ain't so

And just so I do not neglect the topic here, I support the firing of Rosenberry. And a few others. Long over due.

I just finished watching a live stream of the Pgc meeting that had a live interactive chat feature. Several hunters were posting about firings being needed and this page was even posted by someone for all to see.

Its ashame our deer management has become such a joke and a circus because of the mismanagement. Thanks PGC