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I was looking for a new rifle that I could make 600+ plus yard shots with. It would have to also have enough power for elk hunting. Any suggestions?
Outside of a 5o-cal. military round, your best bet would probably be a 7mm-Rem Mag. The bullet's weight and diameter are optimal for the least amount of drop for that kind of distance. Not sure where I read this, but it was in one of my reloading books.
Michigan Firearms Instructor
How far past 600 yards you want to shoot?
I would suggest the .300 Win. Mag. for that kind of work, the 7mm Mag is a good choice as well but bullet selection and barrel life are all less with a 7mm
I would suggest a .338/378 WBY
I have a friend that used one for several years now and he swears by it , I would swear at it.
300 win mag.
thanks for the tips
50 BMG works well. Wouldnt want to carry it though. 338 win mag and up works too. Jarrett Long Ranger, Lazzeroni Warbird or Titan anyone?
First you must ask yourself are you really that good. I would think if you were that good you would have the caliber part worked out.
I've made a lot of 600 yard shots on the rifle range, and I can say for certain that I'm not comfortable shooting at game anywhere near that far. So, I'd second JAReynolds' caution - there's just way too much to go wrong at that range for most people to make that shot unless they practice it A LOT.
I have a Weatherby mark 5 accumark in 300 weatherby I got it for $1100
Sounds like .300Wby territory.
If you are hell bent on taking 599 yard shots or better, I would suggest a .30-.378 Weatherby and a good orthopedic clinic. That is some tall shooting for all but the most accomplished marksman.
Most folks can't dope the wind away from the rifle range in elk country. Not that they can't point and hold the rifle, they just don't know where to point it! Wind drift at 600 yards is a mere 23 to 26 inches at that range for a 10 MPH crosswind. Most places I hae killed elk, that would be a rare day. In the mountains where most elk hang out, 20 to 30 MPH swirling cross winds are not too rare. that will give you 44 inches of wind drift. Pretty tough hold when you are shaking like a dog passing a peach seed anyway!
300 ultra mag with 180 gr swit sirocco worked great at 750 yards for me. the guys talking about wind are correct i was lucky to have no wind and i knew the ballistics of my rifle plus a very good scope is a must. my personal opionion is a better hunter would have stalked to within a hundred yards and could shot my elk with 30/30 winchestor but to each his own
I have used both the 7mm mag and the 300 win mag for long range shots. I usually stay at 500 yards or less (and have taken several deer and elk at 500 yards), but i would choose the 300 win mag over the 7mm mag based on performance and ballistics. It just hits them harder and penetrates well at the longer ranges. If you don't mind the recoil then you could step up to the 300 WB mag. Check the ballistic charts for the different calibers and decide what you want - compare velocity, energy and drop at the ranges you are going to be shooting at.
But here is my advice - based on your question I am not sure you are ready for 600+ yard shots. You should have done the ballistic research before asking the question and have ruled out certain calibers and provided your preferences and experience with other calibers at long ranges from 400 to 600 yards. The fact is, most people will never shoot to the full potential of their weapon and will be accurate at ranges of 250 yards or less. It won't be your gun, it will be your ability that limits your shooting range.
Shot placement and penetration is still the key to clean kills at that range.
600 yards! Really? It's called hunting! You're going to need a 50 BMG, a crapload of practice, an awesome range finder, scope and a spotter.
Get plenty of salt on that bullet, the darn animal will spoil before you can pack it out at that range.
Keen One, you really have no idea what you're talking about do you
First off, you need to practice hunting at reasonable ranges before you start shooting animals at 600 yards. Can you shoot 3 inch or better groups at 300 yards without a rest? You better be able to do this 100% if you expect to "hunt" at 600 yards.
Also, hunting big game at that range is hardly hunting, if at all. It's not even close to qualifying as a fair chase practice.
Outside of the marksmanship challenge, there is no challenge whatsoever in shooting at an animal from that far out.
At that point, you're just target shooting at a live animals. Not hunting.
Just as sort of qualifications in what I will say please bear in mind that I do a lot of long range open country hunting/shooting. I have friends and acquaintances who routinely peform this type of hunting more than me so I have observed a considerable number of very long range one shot kills. Invariably the choice is a 7 mm mag or a .300 mag of some sort with the hightest BC bullet available for caliber. One with secant ogive and minimal meplat is best at extreme distances such as 1000 yards. In reality my favorite caliber is the much maligned 7 mm Ultra or 7 mm x .404 Jeffrey. I have discovered that the people who hate it the most have never pulled the trigger on one of these flat shooters. Granted 92 grains of Retumbo down a 26 inch barrel wears the throat rather quickly but that is a price involved in the sport. Even without a range conpensating scope 600 yard shots are not that difficult. With a Nightforce, highend Leupold, or Huskemaw and a wind gauge these shots are reasonable at even further distance unless the wind is gusting side to side. Time is normally not a big factor in that we spend a resonable amount being certain that the wind and range are right, the gun is not canted, and the animal is standing at the proper angle dead still. This is probably not something that many of you have the opportunity to accomplish even though it is easily done in the Wyoming deserts and mountains. Please feel free to discuss this issue with me if you have any questions as I am only attenpting to present my side in a brief manner. Also bear in mind that probably most shots we take are 200-400 yards which is point blank or near abouts that with any flat shooting rifle.
I do disagree with one previous poster in that don't practice WITHOUT a rest, ALWAYS use a rest especially in the field even if it is a rock or tree limb. Of course a tripod, bipod, or bakpack is even better. Concerning whether this is shooting animals or hunting I long ago satisfied my mind on the matter. I will ask you this, is ethically shooting a bull elk with an adequate bullet at sufficient velocity following extensive practice with selected equipment less hunting than rushing a shot at an unsuspecting buck running by your deer stand in a purposely chosen tree with a .30-30 at 25 yards, is it less hunting than sitting in a blind wrapped in camo so you can kill ducks over decoys, is it not so much hunting as ripping around the countryside on a four wheeler or in a pickup waiting for a chance encounter with a deer that you can screech to a halt so your rifle exits the window in time to stop him in the road, or buying a bull or deer you can afford which was raised behind a fence and who does not have enough inate savy to run from you, or for that matter hiring an outfitter to locate you an animal, point him out, and give you specific instructions so you won't miss the critter with your good old '06 at 200 yards? Is driving thickets with forty hounds pushing out every animal who lives there into the front of twenty five guns on the other side hunting? I did that once and left very much unsatisfied with what I had been a part of on that memorable day. I could go on and on but you do doubt get my drift. Hunting is what you want it to be as long as it is not illegal. Unless you are a participant in some particular aspect of the sport and fully understand it please do not divide us hunters because of your personal percularities as to how the world should be or criticism of how another fellow hunter desires to fill his tag.
I agree with the 300 mags or 7mm mags wether it is winchester weatherby or remington.
As for the ethics if you practice and build your confidence and skill up then go ahead. you are responible for every animal that you shoot at.
who shoots at 300 yrds without a rest??? Who offers that as advise to get ready for 600 yrd shooting? I get your point, about needing to be able to hold 1 MOA at 300, but the guy needs to be practisng from various positions WITH a rest- not without. at any rate 600 yrds is no big deal for a 308 with 165's- 173's. Without much drama you can get competent to get good 1st shot hits at 600 with that. 300 win mag is great if you want to go past 800, but at that point you should be looking at stepping up to a big 338, not a win mag, a RUM or some such. As for the rest, yeah you gotta have a spotter, you have to have legit dope on drop (not ballistic charts from a mag, book, or program) and be able to read and dope wind ( judge speed usually 2/3rds the range to the target, assign a value etc). Then we got angles, unless you are just shooting on the praire, in which case you got MORE wind. Are you planning on Milling your ranges, or using a range finder- which is dodgy at 600 on an animal (they aren't very reflective) so you better learn to MIL yur ranges. so get a good scope with Mildots and remember to use it a t max power (in most cases) or it won't be accurate. And go take a class somewhere too. There are some great ones availble. I have shot some stuff pretty far away, but it wasn't animals. Game animals aren't the type of target where a marginal hit = success.
By without a rest I mean without a bench rest or lead sled type deal or sand bags aka realisitic field situation shooting. Shoulda been more clear.
I tend to get highly critical when I hear questions like this. Lots of amateurs if not full blown newbies asking here and elsewhere about what kind of rifle should they buy to drop said game at said range as if it's easy, and if you buy the right rifle and caliber you can just do it after a little practice like it's nothing.
These tend to be folks that are young enough to fall into the video game age. They all seem think it's like it is in the games with various real and fictional sniper rifles - just apply the crosshairs and boom it's dead. If they buy the right whizbang super magnum rifle they are destined to start doing this in the real world, having never hunted much of anything at any range, if at all.
This sounded like another, so I went off.
Ish, I will agree that your methods beat the crap out of the stuff you listed off, although I have participated in the camo wrapped duck blind thing. It kinda felt like cheating, but then I thought "mmm ducks". Trudging into some timber laden swamp to a good spot and waiting for them with no extra help is far more fun.
"hiring an outfitter to locate you an animal, point him out, and give you specific instructions so you won't miss the critter with your good old '06 at 200 yards?"
You probably just insulted a lot of people haha.
Not to throw stones, but why would anybody want to shoot that far? Get closer.
These discussions do vring out the wordt in people because they are pretty emotional subjects. I definatly am not the guy who will tell someone else to hunt. I've said on other occasions that the best thing to do is pursue these critters in the manner that provides the ethical challenge that brings you the most satisfaction. I truly enjoy that long pause between the report of the rifle and the smack of the bullet, but I get more of an emotional charge from the up close encounters. That said I rarely bowhunt because I don't live around whitetails anymore. In the house I grew up in I got into bowhunting because I vould do it out my bedroom window- and the one time I shot a deer with a 30-30 from my window I thought it wa the end of me.. literally. Mom gets the azz when you discharge firearms in the house. So I got into srchery and it is my primary method for whitetails wherever. But I am a shooter at heart, I love guns, bullets handloading, ringing iron maidens punching paper gun oil etc, so most of my hunting is with a rifle. I have the benefit of some pretty legit long range "targt interdiction" training- but I rarely use it in the field. Go with what you know, and what provides you the most happiness, or you might quit going out and that'd be no good. If you are already a marksman then learn to hunt, I mean stalk, if you can stalk and hunt- then learn to shoot at range- broaden your skill sets iin all areas it'll only enhance your enjoyment of the sprot.
My rule of thumb is to never take a shot that you have not practiced and had some measure of success with. For me, that is about 300 yards for my .35 Whelen and .30-06. I am tryin to practice and gain proficiency with a 7mm magnum to push my realistic shooting envelope out to 400 +/- yards with a 99.5% chance of a first round hit. When I get to 400 yards with consistent MOP, I'll move it out!
Shane you are no doubt right about me insulting folks who hire outfitters. Insofar as the various hunting methods I mentioned I believe I have repeatedly utilized each of them many times at some point in my life. Actually there are two sides to the outfitter coin in that in some situations the hunter has no choice due to legal constraints. Also it may be that the hunter possesses no specific knowledge of the terrain he is hunting so requires local advice/direction. Other reasonable causes for the need to be outfitted come to mind but what I dislike about this whole affair is often times the outfitter becomes the hunter and the hunter is merely the shooter. All it takes is time, money, and desire to be in the top few of the B & C book for any species. It does not have to be that way but often that seems to be how it turns out. Just my observation.
007 often in open mountainous country you either become good at long shots or you boil and eat you game tag for dinner. There is a great array of things that might prevent you from shooting at 100 yards like we all would prefer. They include but are not limited to difficult terrain, lack of time due to setting sun on last day you can hunt, human induced hunting pressure which keeps the animals wary and moving (also possibly animal induced as in grizzlys and wolves routinely pursuing the elk herd), poor physical condition and/or age of the hunter/shooter (I fear I am heading into this direction), or maybe just the enjoyment of being able to take an animal at long range. I realize that this concept is not common where many of you hunt but please understand that it is not uncommon in the Rockies especially on the barren northern faces and above the tree line. The emphasis is to know what you are doing, have the right equipment, plus considerable practice before hand. Maybe I will relate a few stories about this type of scenario some time but not now because I will have to acquire a list of witnesses you can contact to verify that I am not lying.
You are right. Sometimes the 300+ yard shots are all you get in the Rockies and Plains! I have passed on quite a few way out there because I did not have the confidence to make the hit! That's why I am practicing with my 7mm Wby to hunt those areas where my .35 Whelen and '06 simply do not have the reach. Good points.
Thanks to everybody who gave me their two cents even if was a swift kick in the marbles and Im not new at hunting I've been hunting since I was 12 and Im 20 now. To those who said that get closer its harder I almost have to disagree cause how many people can shoot accurately and confidently at 600 yards cause that gives you such a small margin for error that your nerves are shot. And I like hearing the shot hit the animal after the report of the rifle it kinda gives you the warm fuzzy feeling inside.
What is your point of reference that says barrel life is shorter on a 7mm magnum than a .300 magnum? Bullet selection? I think just about every bullet fit for deer and elk hunting is made in .284, .308, and .338 and in a good range of weights, too.
For elk or deer at 600+ yards you will probably want a 338 Lapua mag, 7mm mag, or any of the big .30 Weatherby's. but take into mind the effect you'll have to calculate for...temperature change, barometric pressure, wind, mirage and, depending upon where you are, the Coriolis effect. i definitely agree with those that said there will be much more skill involved than weapon capability.
For elk or deer at 600+ yards you will probably want a 338 Lapua mag, 7mm mag, or any of the big .30 Weatherby's. But take into mind the effect you'll have to calculate for:temperature change, barometric pressure, wind, mirage and, depending upon where you are, the Coriolis effect. i definitely agree with those that said there will be much more skill involved than weapon capability.
sorry about the double post. Ive got a slow computer.
Mule Deer....7mm mag w/160gr....taken several past 600yds....it's the only grain bullet I've ever found that held a group and it stoned em when it hit.
Word for the wise....practice otherwise you'll just leave a but of dead animals all over the hills.
Where did I say that? I honestly can't remember.
But the 7Mag does have a shorter barrel life, it's physics, you use the same amount of powder as in a .300 win. Mag. but you are putting it down a smaller bore. Look up Bart Bobbitt's barrel life formula, if you want my reference that is it.
As for bullet selections, yes there are adequate bullets in all calibers but the selection is GREATEST in .30 caliber. Nothing against .284's or .338's. But you need more than just a ballistically adequae cartridge/caliber.
I don't want to get involved in another debate about long range, too many people don't know enough about it to make a valid argument and just blow off steam on here.
Read up to your first post on this thread. That is what I'm referring to. I'll check out the formula you referenced. As an aerospace engineer, I will check it out for accurate data. Hopefully it is not just some web dude with an idea, opinion, and a website....
"To those who said that get closer its harder I almost have to disagree cause how many people can shoot accurately and confidently at 600 yards"
So what would you say if I took a Palma or any other long range competitor out hunting with no previous hunting experience, and on his or her first season, if not week or day out shot a top 50 B&C bull? Does that make said newbie a great hunter? Of course not.
If you can shoot very well at 600 yards and beyond, have an appropriate rifle, legs, and a spotting scope, a trophy animal is yours. You just have to find it, get in range, shoot it. The animal will never know or have a chance of knowing that it's being hunted. Outside of the hike and the shot, no challenge is there. Tell me if I'm wrong and there is something else challenging about that.
Almost anyone, given the right teacher and equipment, can become a great shot; proficient at all kinds of ranges within a matter of months. No amount of teaching or equipment will allow someone to sneak within 30 yards of their quarry. Only years of hard hunting and a lot of instinct will get you that.
My issue is not with long range shooting itself, I just find that fewer and fewer hunters are real woodsman and masters of stealth anymore, many are just using their equipment and marksmanship in place of true hunting skills. This is not the case for all who shoot animals at long range. Some are great hunters no matter what weapon you hand them. But more and more are just guys that shoot very well and use it as a crutch.
So, I guess I take this away from Shane's post:
There's real hunters, and then there's shooters. Not necessarily one and the same. The guy that is neither is called vegetarian. LOL
I checked out Bart Bobbits barrel life formula. Suggesting that 932 rounds of 7mm Weatherby will be the useful life of a barrel seems a little off for me. There was nothing besides his little 5 block calculator to back up his calcs.
Most anything magnum and 7MM or .300 with a good bullet will get out there and then some. How good a shot are you? Good enough to make an ethical kill shot at that distance with variables in play?
If that kind of range (600+) is what you want go ahead and go for the gusto. Get a .338 Lapua, a Nightforce, a good rangefinder, a great spotting scope, a kestrel, and a ballistics calc or get one of the apps they make for the iphone or palm. Practice your ass off with something cheaper and smaller then work up loads for the Lapua. While you're doing all this befriend a banker, an orthopedist, and an audiologist(not necessarily in that order). You will eventually need each of their professional services. I figure you will have at least a bare minimum $25 per shot cost by the time you are up to speed and proficient (not counting services and anything that doesn't go bang). If that is your idea of hunting, hats off to you. I'd rather just get closer.
I am honestly not Usre WA Mtnhunter, I have not done extensive research on the formula. I talked to my gunsmith today and asked him about it, he said accurate barrel life of a .300 was around 1200-1400 of good long range acuracy and a 7 mag was about 1000-1200, so not much difference, for the regular joe that doesn't shoot but a few rounds a year, either rifle will last a liferime.
I would agree that 1,200 +/- a few is more like it depending on loads and barrel care. The 932 sounded a bit on the low side. On a STW, Lazzeroni, or big case Ultra mags, I would believe it. i have never heard of anyone shooting the barrel out of a 7mm Rem mag. Heck, you would go bankrupt shooting out the barrel of a Weatherby due to their ammo prices!
Mthunter I have well over 1000 rounds through my W German 7mm WBY and have yet to have any problems I really dont load it hot usally at the top of the book and keep it clean you have a great round that will serve you for many many years good hunting.
Yeah MntHunter, I know one fella that shot out his 7 mag but I do not know how many rounds he had through it. I would think throat erosion would be the biggest problem with a cartridge like that. I only have one magnum rifle and it is a .300 win. You really don't need anything bigger than that in my opinion, but if a bigger cartridge gives you more confidence, by all means get one. By the way thanks for directing me to my post about barrel life. I couldn't remember where I had said that. Take care MtnHunter
A clean gun is a happy gun. If you take care of it you should not get any throat erosion unless you shoot ungodly vel.
I have an old 7 mm Rem Mag that has been shot thousands of times and still demonstrates good accuracy with a decent appearing barrel interior. On the other hand when Douglas custom built the barrel to my design and specifications for my 7 mm Ultra they indicated that at max loads to expect 500 to 800 shots prior to throat erosion. We will see. For what it is worth I watched a guy shoot a 435 class bull at 475 yards with a box stock Weatherby Mark V, a Leupold 4.5 x 14 B & C reticle and some kind of Trophy Bonded bullets. One shot downed the bull. He said he had owned the 7 mm for about ten years and shoots it regularly. He said he had killed 7 bulls and 9 cows with it. Without a doubt more powder burning down a small bore will erode the throat before it occurs in a larger diameter caliber. Its part of the price of shooting such a choice.
No doubt that smaller bore + larger powder charges = more throat erosion + shorter barrel life.
The 7mm Weatherby has actually a slightly smaller case capacity than a 7mm Rem mag according to one of my manuals, but the 7Wby usually has a slightly larger powder charge for most powders. Other than the shoulder/neck design and about 100 - 150 fps, there is not much difference in the two that should add anything significant to barrel erosion. I usually find a lighter load and cheaper bullet with a similar BC to practice with anyway. Like a load w/ Speer bullets I worked up for my son's 7mm Rem Mag to duplicate ballistics of the 160 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw he uses for hunting. Why put that expensive stuff down range in practice? Might as well stop handloading if you're doing that.
I would imagine you could get away with thousands of good accuracy life at 200 yards and under probably 300 yards, but the post is about 600 yards+ when you are shooting those distances, your barrell life is much less. Like with Competition AR's you get about 3000 rounds of good 600 yard accuracy and bassically unlimited barrell life for 300 and under. Just because it still shoots good at close range doesn't mean its barrell isn't shot out for long range stuff
If a rifle shoots MOA at 100 and 200 yards, why would it not shoot MOA at 600 yards? Hell, I don't need MOA at 100 yards, just MOP! I might need some shooting lessons, but geometry I think that I have that down pat. I don't think the rotation of the earth has much effect at rifle range.
Thirty years ago, you could hardly get a production rifle to shoot near MOA. I recall lots of stories about guys sending rifles back to the manufacturer and they were returned saying 3" accuracy at 100 yards was acceptable. Winchester was the main culprit back then followed closely by Ruger as I recall.
Ishawooa, you are correct, I am sure, and I do not question your veracity. I was simply responding based upon my background and experiences. In eastern WV where we hunt, a long shot is 300 yards thru an open farm field, that being the exception, with most of our shots coming at more like 100 yards or much less in the woods. Having never seen the great west, but wanting to badly, I can't wrap my mind around shots of that distance. No offense intended, just unfamiliar.
I don't quite get the point of long range hunting either. I'm on 007's side. I mean I could step of my deck and shoot a deer at 600 yards but whats the fun in that. I just feel like with long range hunting your taking a giant shortcut and missing out on the main part of the hunt. Being able to take a long shot doesn't make you more of a hunter, being able to get close and actually seeing and grasping the mass of the rack on the animal without looking through glass makes someone a better hunter. Anybody can learn to punch holes in a target 600yds away what difference does it make if you switch the paper with a living, breathing target. I know guys who bow hunt elk out west and they have to stalk elk and get within 30yds. There is no excuse why a rifle hunter can't do the same. Just because you to have the ability to take the long shots doesn't mean you need to take the long shots. Try staying low and get closer. Anybody can make a 600yd shot, getting close enough to smell the game is harder and much more rewarding task. I'm not trying to offend anyone and make them feel like less of a sportsman I'm just throwing my opinion in on this.
MtnHunter have you ever heard of a rifle that shhots poorly at short range and shoots great at long range? A rifle that may only shoot 1.5 minutes at 200 yards but will shoot under 1MOA at 600 yards? This doesn't make much logical sense does it, but it happens. Often it takes several hundred yards for a bullet to go to sleep(to stop rotating on the axis of the bore and to start rotating around it's center of mass.) It's the same thing,just because a rifle shoots well at 100-200 yards doesn't mean it will shoot well at 600 yards, it doesn't work like we think it should in theory. I do a lot more long range shooting than most, and when I develop a long range load I do my load testing at 600 yards. Often times the most accurate load at 200 yards is not the most accurate at 600. Thik about it, how much does a 50fps extreme spread have on the verticle stringing of a shot at 200 yards? It is hardly noticable, but that same 50fps spread at 600 yards has over 3" of verticle deflection. Thigs don't always work the way the math says it should, I know that you must think I'm nuts saying that seeing you're an areonauticle engineer but it's true. Try it some time, shoot several loads at close range and several at long(600+yards) and compare which is most accurate at each.
Several of the posts have suggested that reliable 600+ yard shots are beyond the skill levels of most of us. I agree. Multiple factors make these shots extraordinarily challenging. One example is wind. Let's assume one can estimate the average wind over 600 yards to within 2 mph (not and easy feat!) the remaining uncertainty can take most bullets clear out of the canonical 10" vital zone. Some of these issues are explored in http://shootersnotes.com where you can see some targets (including a 10-inch paper dinner plate) illustrated with typical scopes out to 500 yards.
I'll have to take your word for your last statements. My limited exterior ballistics knowledge would lead me to believe that a bullet's rotation would slowdown and become less stable at greater ranges.
Well the rotation of the bullet remains constant. If you shhot a barrel with a 1-10" twist at 1000 yards the bullet is still rotating 1 rotation in every 10". Bullets become unstable when they travel through the "transonic" stage (where the bullet goes from being supersonic to subsonic) the reason for this as best as I understand is due to the change in the way the air flows over the grooves in the bullet that the rifling engraves in its surface. I honestly can say though that I don't understand how a load can group poorly at short range but great at long, that one makes no sense to me, but In do know it is true. Why? I have no clue. Long Range shooting is a art and a science in my opinion. It takes years to perfect and do properly, I've been doing it for about 9 years now and can hit a pie plate at 800 yards with my first shot 98% of the time, but I still would not take that ling of a shot on an animal. You can get closer than that. I have made several one shot kills on animals past 600 yards and that is what I try to limit my range to on game animals, 600 yards. But, I do feel that you need to get as close as possible to the game animal, this will increase your chances of not messing up the shot. Long range is my passion but it is not something the hunter should use to take advantage of game animals with. I will argue all day that a long range shot can be made to ethically take a game animal at long range (ethical meaning it will bring a kill just as quickly and painlessly to an animal as any other hunting method) But I will not get into the argument that it is a sporting way to hunt, that is ones personal opinion. Sporting and ethical are different if you ask me.
I'm not questioning your shooting abilities here.
Are you sure about that bullet rotation thing????? That flies against logic. You are saying the bullet is rotating at a constant(rpm) while over distance the forces of air(friction) and gravity are acting on it, yet as the bullet is flying it is losing velocity(we obviously agree on that). In other words its still at it's same rpm at say 600 yds. as it is at it's launch? You may have just created a perpetual motion machine there. I would think as the bullet departed the barrel it would slow in rotation somewhat.
I copied this from RSI SHOOTING LAB hope they will forgive me for borrowing....
"Let's look at the rotational speed of a bullet. The formula for computing the rotational speed of a bullet is
R = (12/T) * V
T = Twist
V = Velocity in f/s
R = Rotations per second
Now consider a bullet chronographed at about 2750 f/s muzzle velocity fired from a rifle with a 10" twist. It is rotating at around 198,000 rpm Let the flight velocity decay to 2000 f/s. Now what is the bullet rotational speed? Well, it doesn't fall off much because the only things slowing it down are inertia and skin friction drag which is pretty low, and with the M80 ball bullet it has been measured about 90 percent of the original rpm (or in this case about 178,00 rpm) depending on the bullet. Then chronograph an identical bullet from the same rifle, this time with a muzzle velocity of 2000 f/s. Its rotational velocity will be 144,000 rpm. Its stability will be different from the bullet fired at 3000 f/s and allowed to slow down to 2000 f/s. It will not have the same drag at 2000 f/s although the bullets are identical. Therefore, two identical bullets fired from the same rifle at different velocities, will not have the same drag coefficient or ballistic coefficient just because of the way the measurements were taken. There are times when test data does not mean what you think it does."
Ok. My reading of this is that although a small amount, a bullet's rotation slows through it's life of flight. With velocity change, the ballistics coefficient changes, therefore acting on the bullet rpm. According to him you are going to get some loss there. If it's not please show me that - I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck on this point. I want to learn.
I do agree on the supersonic-subsonic transition instability - that's proven fact. I'm with WaMtnhunter on both the limited ballistics knowhow.
don't have the foggiest notion of where 'both' came from in the last sentence.
Just a couple of notes:
The 'transonic' stage of a 7mm Weatherby is at about 1400 yards, a 30-06 at about 1200 yards, and my old slowpoke .35 Whelen is at 700 yards. The speed of sound (standard) is 343 meter/sec. or about 1,125 fps. Hardly a factor in all but the most extreme range ballistics.
Also, Most of the air flow across the rifling grooves is inconsequential since most of the bearing surface is in the boundary layer created behind the ogive. Airflow doesn't react with that shape of an object until near the base again, hence the low drag boattail design that reduces drag.
I'm not trying to be a know-it-all either. Just trying to understand how a projectile coud be more stable at 600 yards than it can be at 200 yards. All good stuff!
600 yards, I'll stick to my 25-06!
Bunch of MAGNUM BLOW HARDS!
308 works fantastic on the 1000 yard line!!
If bullets become unstable when they travel through the "transonic" stage, then why do 22 long rifle are still flying true even at 600 yards!!!
Here are some comparisons, 257WBY bullet drop at 500 yards is 31.9 in and energy at same range is 690 pounds here are some specks on the 7mm WBY bullet drop at 500 yards 23in energy at same range is 1784 pounds. Forgot bullet weight on 257 is 117.
Sorry bullet for the 7mm is a 160 Partion.
sgaredneck: I am not sure on that, I read on that link you posted and they mention things that go against what I have read other places. So as of right now I do not know for sure if the bullet twist rate slows. Good one to ponder over ey?
MtnHunter: I wish I understood why bullets do what they do as well
Clay: a .25-06 is not a long range Hunting round, and a .308 does do great at 1000 yards but it is not a 1000 hunting cartridge, a long range target cartridge and a long range hunting cartridge are two very different things. Just as a side note on your .308 note, a 6.5-284 is a much better choice for 1000 yard target shooting than the .308.
sgaredneck: Guess you didn't really post a link, but I found where you got that info and read up on it. That's what I meant
007 Don't be modest as I know you guys from W. Va. can shoot. A few years ago I had a student from the University of Wyoming who was actually originally from WV. Her boyfriend and one of his buddies came to Wyoming to visit her for a couple weeks in September. They talked a lot about hunting black bear and NASCAR. We took a couple trips out into the desert to do a little long range shooting. It didn't take them very long to be able to hit a paper plate at 500 to 600 yards as often as the rest of us. It just takes getting used to the equipment, range, and some practice. Great state West Virginia...
Barrel life in big game rifles is almost irrelevant: Very few people will be willing to buy ($3 each) and fire enough magnum rifle cartridges to wear out a barrel. Be it 270 Weatherby or 338 Win Mag, most people will not shoot that much. Some reloaders and other gun nuts, myself included, might but it will take a long, long time. Odds are that we will likely change barrels out of boredom (gotta try that 350 Norma Mag or 220-378 Weatherby) rather than wait until a barrel is "shot-out".
Everybody quotes that "speed-of-sound" number like it's an absolute, remember that it varies depending upon temperature and atmospheric pressure (altitude). Speed of sound at 80F in Florida is going to be different(FPS) than at 10F at 8000 ft in Wyoming. Same for how much pressure your cartridge produces, temperature and atmospheric pressure affect it, sometimes drastically. This will affect velocity, and hence trajetory. There aren't too many absolutes in this shooting business.
600 yards is a good distance; a good round I feel is good for long distance shooting would be the 7mm rem mag
"Sport hunting is based on the premise that the animals have a chance to evade you before you can kill them. They do this by sensing you with hearing, smell, and eyesight. But at 500 yards, sound and scent dissipate, and only prong-horn antelope see well enough to detect a hunter holding still. No chance, no sport." - DEP
Noticed no one brought up the 7mm S.T.W(Shooting Times Western).
In reality, you/they need to move close to make an ethical shot !
Not saying it can't be done, but at that those ranges it's not hunting it's shooting at a live target.
I shoot a lot at longer ranges and I don't hesitate to shoot 600 yards with 100g 25-06 bullet. It decks a deer at 600 about the same as it does at 100 yards. I know it has lost quite a bit of energy and velocity by that time but the deer, antelope and coyotes don't seem to notice. For real long range hunting I use a fast .30 caliber. I have personally chosen the .300 Dakota after lots of research and testing. It shoots at the speed of a .300 RUM with about half the recoil and I don't like recoil for highly accurate shooting. I use Berger or Sierra Match King 210g bullets. With their high ballistic coefficient, they hold their velocity longer than any other weight .30 cal bullet at ranges of 1,000 yards and more. They are also extremely accurate. As stated above, you need to know windage and drop but given knowledge of that, I can pretty consistently shoot a coke can at 1,000 yards with my custom rifle built around a Lothar Walther 26" varmint barrel. The transition from super sonic to sub-sonic creats a lateral force on the bullet that severely affects its accuracy. If you can keep it supersonic all the way to the target, accuracy is better. We don't see the problem with .22LR because they don't make the transition... they are subsonic all the way. That is why I don't shoot the .25-06 at 1,000 yards... it gets there all right and pretty quick at that. I just can't always hit that Coke can with it... I don't like shooting anything bigger than a .30 caliber at long range because I occassionally flinch or jerk the trigger because of the anticipation of the terrible recoil and I NEVER want to do that. I could use smaller bullets than .30 caliber (e.g. 65x284) but I want sufficient energy at 1,000 to deck an elk. I don't believe that shooting game at long range diminishes the sport; on the contrary, I believe it expands the sport... it gives me a year round hobby and allows me to shoot thousands of rounds per year in preparation for that one big shot. I have been very happy with the .300 Dakota and the Lothar Walthar barrel as a long range platform and would highly recommend it. I have friends that shoot the .338 Lapua for this but I can't stand its recoil and as a result of the recoil, I consistenly outshoot them at long range even though their cartriges are ballistically a LITTLE BIT more ideal.
Out of Curiosity Dakotaman, What is you rifle exactly, action barrel, stock scope ect. and who was the gunsmith? I'm putting together another long range rifle as we speak by Truman Wilson and am always curious to see what others use.
Actually the 264 Win Mag is the best round for 600 yards, but for Elk? I'll stick to my 338 Win Mag!!!!
I had some experience shooting at the 400yd(+/-)mark with good success using the 7MM Rem Mag, but alas that was a number of years ago while living in North Dakota; while hunting here in Michigan translates to shooting within 150yds. Most of the time shots don't go beyond this distance unless you set yourself up over cultivated fields, or possibly an old rail track/lumber clearing road? Either way, 600yds is a long way to shoot in my book, let alone retain enough energy to kill an Elk..WA mentioned the .30-378, which probably is a good choice considering you want to SEEK a 600yd shot vs if an opportunity arises while hunting. It comes down to an question of ethics..is it ethically responsible shooting 600yds at a game animal to insure a quick kill? IMO-NO!
I would argue it is ethically possible to take animals at 600 yards with regularity and consistancy, whether it is sporting or not is another question, but as for cleanly taking an animal, I'd argue you can take an animal just as cleanly and quickly at 600 yards as you can from your treestand at 18 yards.
I practice regularly at 200-yards and 300-yards with a variety of handloaded rifles up to and including a .280 AI. Except when I'm first sighting in rifles at long range (in which case I attempt to have a friend act as a spotter), I tend to use water-filled plastic jugs of various sizes as my targets, because you always know when you have a good hit, and you don't need a spotting scope to see the hit. When space is available and a certain landowner is in a friendly mood, several times a year I practice my marksmanship on water-filled jugs out to 500 and 600 yards, and, on rare occasions, out to 700. My preferred rifle of choice for the long shots is my 7x57 AI. Its muzzle velocity is only slightly less than that of the 280 AI, but its recoil (aided by the rifle's significant weight) is far less, so I generally am more accurate with it (at any sane distance) and can comfortably take more shots with it during a range session than with the 280 AI.
But even though I practice regularly, and even though I'm a proficient marksman, I doubt very much that I would ever take a shot at a game animal at any range in excess of 350-400 yards, and even then only perfect or nearly perfect conditions. Shots of 300-yards or less I'm okay with, but too often I've seen weird things happen to the trajectories of bullets in long range flight.
There have been too many times where I've missed a perfectly made, perfectly zeroed shot at a 500-yard or 600-yard water jug--for no apparent reason at all--for me to have faith that I can always make a quick, humane killing shot on a deer or pig or elk at the same distances. For those of you who can hit targets the size of water-filled jugs 19 out of 20 times at 500-600 yards, I salute you. These days I'm having a good day, and my rifle and ammo are each having a good day, if I hit water-filled jugs at those distances an average of 15 or 16 times out of 20. That's not good enough in my mind. As such, I'm just not comfortable with taking long-range "hunting" shots.
If more people took the approach to long range as you do I think we'd be much better off. You seem to recognize the fact it is possible to make those long shots but you know what your personal shooting limits are and you stay within them. Everyone has different limits and abilities and I respect anyone that knows and abides by their true limits, and not the ones they made up in there head.
.25-06 is not a long range Hunting round?
Tell that to all the Jack Rabbits, Coyotes and Mule and White Tail Deer I've shot!
As for the 308 on the 1000 Yard line, works for me! Out shot a many 300 Win Mags topped with extraterrestrial telescopes with my open sighted M1A!
All you testosterone driven shooters talk a lot of trash while those of us are out doing it! Anything past 300 yards starts to drop like a rock. You pull out your numbers and say this velocity and that foot pound energy, big deal you still have to raise the muzzle to hit it and when you do, IT'S GOING DOWN BABY! A fella in Louisiana hit a doe by mistake trying to scare it at 500 yards with a 22 pistol and ran 75 yards and died so figure that one out!
When a person talks only velocity, foot pound energy and drop, I know I have someone who has no experience and doesn't have a clue what they are talking about! Reminds me of the idiot in Alaska who shot and wounded a nice Bull Caribou to never to be found and dropped 3 cows all with one shot! This moron was at the range the previous weekend and yours truly had to sight in his gun simply because he couldn't handle the recoil. Then he had the audacity to ask me at work in front of everyone how many Bears I've shot. I turned the tables on him how many State and Regional Championships has he won and boy did he leave the room in a HUFF! Stupid thing to ask an Crusty Old Sarge when your bosses are in the room, LOL!!
Talk your trash all you want, just hold my Trophy while I kiss your Girl Friend! LOL!
By the way, this is for you Range Monkeys!
The best Caliber or better yet cartridge for 600 yards, is the one you can hit with at 600 yards!!
If you hit it, you hit it!
No matter if it's a laser beam or "Chunking Pumpkins"! A kill is a kill as a hit in the "X" ring, is a hit in the "X" ring!
Best Cartridge in my book is the long and forgotten 264 Win Mag! Why do I like the 30-06 and the 338 Win Mag? I cut my teeth on the 06 and the 338 Win Mag trajectory is close to it and I know how much to raise the muzzle and it will put them down!
As I have said in other posts, I have a lot of experience with elk and moose. Longest shot that resulted in a kill (eventually) was 300 yards downhill at about 30% (which is pretty darn steep!). By the end of the week I sure as hell wished I hadn't taken those shots. Yes, the word is plural. Shooting any considerable distance downhill takes a lot of guesswork no matter what your shooting. As often as not in mountainous country you're going to spot that beyond-long-distance elk downhill. There's also the wind factor. And is your bullet going to have enough gas when it gets there to do the job? How can anyone compensate for all that uncertainty? Yeah, you might hit that elk at 600 yards, but do you know where you're going to hit it? I wound up clipping that small bull in the achilles tendon. It's a miracle that I was eventually able to catch up to it and kill it. After two days of pure hell and almost killing one pack horse and my brother, the meat was finally in the truck. Never took any shots like that again. As hunters we have an ethical responsibility to do our utmost to make sure that the animal is killed humanely and its meat used productively. Six hundred yard shots have little if any insurance of either. If it means "boiling your tag", so be it. Big deal! If the only reason you're out there is to shoot something, you're really missing out on what hunting is all about. Track down and shoot a bull moose sleeping in an alder thicket through the heart at 20 yards (yes, twenty yards) and see how thrilling THAT is. Tracking one down that close and kicking it out of its bed without seeing it is just as exciting. I know, I've done the former once and the latter countless times. Compare this to watching a bull elk hobble off after being hit in the ham at 400 yards and see how "exciting" that is. No, I didn't do it but I did finish the job for the jerks that did (I was the only one with a flashlight). And I had to shoot to kill or be killed. It wasn't six hundred yards (more like six) but it was pretty damned exciting. And yes, I would risk my life again to keep that poor bugger from languishing all night. Six hundred yard shooting risks too much and provides a minimal "reward" even if everything does go right. No, I won't use a beautiful animal like that for target practice. And I condemn anyone that does.
Ontario Honker ...
Excellent point Sir and a +1 for you. When I say "When a person talks only velocity, foot pound energy and drop, I know I have someone who has no experience and doesn't have a clue what they are talking about" is just that, don't have a clue what there talking about and no experience what so ever in long range shooting. They stick there nose in a list of trajectory's and foot pound energy and start talking trash. Distance + trajectory + bullet performance + angle of the shot + crosswinds (plural) + light + skill all to name a few all add up whether or not you should even try. As a Veteran Shooter don't come to me with all your armchair mumbo jumbo when you yourself must rely on no skill needed, press the button on the range finder, dial the numbers into the scope and pull the trigger. If that is you, get the hick back on the porch with the rest of the Range Monkeys!! If you really want to learn how to do it, WELCOME MY FRIEND!!!!!!!!! I remember a Good Friend TSgt Paul T. first time when I asked him if he was going to shoot the 1000 yard line. The expression and his reaction was priceless LOL! Even our varmint hunts in New Mexico, he learned to make those long shots but to do it, He did learn how to dope the wind, angel of the shot and hold over. Then recently shot the States largest Buck, from his front door step! Paul you Yankee, I tell'ya you really crack me up!!!!
Ontario Honker is absolutely right when he says you better think long and hard before you pull that trigger! I wish I had a dollar when I was in Alaska getting a phone call to go help someone to haul a Moose out of the most hellish conditions. The tundra is so soft, you go right up to your naval. The only way to travel is with the lightest 4x4 ATV being the 250cc Suzuki LT4WD. Set the suspension down to zero and belly slide in 4 wheel lock and it works great across that stuff! But in a fly in hunt, your screwed!
Ontario Honker ... You say that you condemn anyone that does take those long shots? After what you been threw and what I have witnessed, "BOTTOM LINE" I really don't blame you for saying that.
Will the true 'Range Monkeys' please stand up? LMAO
Long range shooting is not for everyone!
Did you know acording to Hatchers Notebook, a 150 Grain FMJ will penetrate far deeper almost 36 inches into 2x4's than 50 feet aproxematly 12 inchs. At 200 yards, the bullet path thru the wood is almost straight line, wearas at 50 feet the bullet has not had a chance to stabalise and tumbles. That is why I don't like super heavy weight bullets such as the 175 in 7mm's and 250's in 30 cal. Now you know the rest of the story!
The white rectangular dot on the front sight of my Remington Nylon 66, I use the bottom for 200 yard zero!
175 gr 7mm's don't generally have a ballistic edge over a 180 gr .30-06, depending on the bullet B.C. I think the 150 - 160 gr bullets are better suited for the 7mm magnums, although I know guys who swear by them. If I didn't want the higher velocity, I would just stick to a .30-06 Sprg.
For Moose, I've found the 175's in the 7mm mags didn't have the knock down BANG FLOP as the 162's.
Watching the 7mm Rem Mag shooters with 175's and comparing them to the 30-06 group, the 30-06 did have a noticeable difference of a better kill on Moose. Much larger wound channel and hydrostatic shock.
I have zero experience with moose hunting, so I don't know which is more effective. I know that I like the 150's better in a 7mm mag and 165's in my .30 calibers.
yEP, YOU GOT IT!
In my 30-06, I do know 190's have a noticeably greater impart at 600 yards than 180's. The really turn rocks into pea gravel!
"...larger wound channel and hydrostatic shock" translates to bigger hole and more bloodshot in good old-fashioned English. Hmmm. And that's a good thing? I once skinned out a huge muley buck my brother's buddy shot in Eastern Montana. It was shot in the neck and bloodshot half way to its butt. What a mess! A 7mm Mag in 162 grain? I might shoot varmits with something like that but not moose. Mostly because I don't care how much excess damage I do to a varmit. If I ever decide to move up from my 30.06 it will be to 300 Win mag and same weight bullet (200 grain boattail). It's a bit more damaging than my .06 but knock-down is significantly better. The weight factor of the gun itself is what's kept me from going in that direction.
I know clay, Dakotaman, and I are all pretty avid long range shooters, and we all use different methods from what I can tell. Clay uses holdover from years of shooting, Dakotaman I think uses mil-dots(please correct me if I'm wrong), and I use direct dialing on my scope. All three of us argue about the best method, best caliber/cartridge, bullet weight/brand, best rifles ect. but bottom line is we all get it done. We can argue about what is best till the cows come home (And I suspect Clay and I will butt heads again sometime in the future.) But I don't mind that. We see things in a different light than one another and hopeflly by our disagreeing, we can both learn something or look at something differently to make us better hunters/shooters. Wouldn't you agree clay? (By the way, the .300 with a 2oo grainer still beats your .338 with a 225! lol Just kidding, all in good fun)
We will butt heads until hell freezes over, but the truth of the matter is we are always be the best of friends. LMAO!
For all our disagreements, I had to give Clay +1s on this. When people start talking about all those fancy, African safari-type calibers, it's nice to hear someone stand up for the "regular" rounds.
I know velocity drops off some, but I know ballistics on .308 doesn't change much between 300 and 500 meters. (540 yards) Since you can balance a load really nice on a .30-06, I heartily believe that at the very least, as good shooter can take deer at that range.
Clay, if I really wanted to go nuts with my .30-06, do I use heavier or lighter bullet weight as I go farther? Would I not use lighter for range/accuracy, and heavier if I was hunting game?
As you probably know, at age 12 in Tucson Arizona while everyone was cutting there teeth on 22lr popping rats and beer cans at the local garbage dump, I was shooting 30-06 with 130 grain Hornadys by the hundreds. If your not convince, take the new 30 Remington® AR shooting 125 AccuTip at 2278 fps. If this excites you then pushing a 130 out of the 30-06 1000 fps faster should, that's a whopping 3300 fps of reach out and "KNOCK"EM DOWN JOHN" load if I ever seen one! A tad less recoil and a blistering reach across those Western Canyons!
130's in a 300 Mag, WOW!
M1A with a M118 round, 32 clicks up and generally 7 clicks into the wind , nothing but "X"!
Why 130's instead of a 180 or 165? or if you're shooting targets why not a 190? Just wondering why you like 130's so well
Math and physics. A heavier round will start to drop off faster. I generally plink with my .30-06 using 150s, but I'll try that idea. I used a .308 for a few decades, and generally used NATO spec ammo in it. After 6 years, I still haven't played that much with .30-06 loads, mostly since I sold all my reloading equipment. I read here, and buy ammo using the facts and opinions I read and hear until I get my favorites worked out.
Right now my favorite is a nice Remington 165-grain ...ummm... pointy thing.
Everybody likes to play with the math, and to a point, it works. You just have to know the limits. If you ask a mathmetician, you can take a sewing needle to half the speed of light, and have the power of an artillary round.
Well I don't think a light bullet is the way to go for long range. First of all, bullet drop isn't the problem, it's wind drift. Drop is easy to compensate for but wind drift is harder. The heavier the bullet the more momentum it has and higher BC so it has less wind drift than a lighter bullet. For a .30 cal I think the lightest bullet for shooting past 600 yards is a 180gr (Unless you're using a .308 Win then a 175 gr.) Long range competitors use heavier bullets as well. Just because you have a small bullet going really fast doesn't mean it shoots flatter either. It really all does come down to math, and with my math a light bullet isn't the best choice. Oh and yes you can make a sewing needle have the energy of an artillery round but that's unrealistic and everyone knows that. All the math in exterior ballistics is realistic and proven so the numbers really are relevant, at least that's my opinion.
300 win. mag or 7mm rem mag, but you usually can get closer than 600 yards to get a shot
Anything a .300 Win mag and 7mm Rem mag can do, the .300 and 7mm Weatherby's can do better! But I won't shoot at unwounded game that far away.
Sorry BB25... I haven't been on this thread for a long time. You requested platform, gunnsmith, etc. After analyzing stats and talking with lots of long range shooters I decided to use the .300 Dakota as the basis for my long range rifle. The prime recommendation was from the head of engineering at Lothar-Walther. Apparently, he is the one designing the long range sniper rifles for the U.S. and Canadian Depts of Defense. They make the 50BMG sniper barrels (for 2.2 mile pie plate) and M16 barrels. He recommended a .338 Lapua or a .300 Dakota for my needs of high accuracy and high enough energy at 1000 yards to deck an elk. I need a lot more velocity than the paper punchers like the .308 and the 6.5x284. I chose the .300 because of its very mild recoil compared to the .338 which for me sure contributes to my best hunting accuracy. His prime recommendation was that they do the chambering because they have a very unique process for aligning the chamber with the barrel in sniper rifles that can't be beat at gunsmith shops and that is how they lead the world in this. I got a premium 1:10 26 inch heavy varmint contour barrel with 11 degree target crown that was planned for .1 MOA shooting at that range however I didn't sign up for their guarantee and tuning program since I wasn't shooting competitively and didn't want to pay an extra $500 or so for that. Andy Gazaway in Alpharetta, GA did the gun smithing. The barrel is about 95% of the accuracy but it is on an M98 Mauser action with a Timney trigger and is glass/pilar bedded in a walnut stock I whittled for it with a Limbsaver butt pad. The barrel is free floated. Andy had to blueprint, widen the magazine rails, widen the bolt face and head space it plus bed, polish and parkerize. It currently uses a Leupold 6.5 to 20 scope so I can crank up to 28.5 MOA of elevation for 1000 yards. I'd love a Nightforce but that isn't in the cards this year. I use a Harris bipod and rear bag (or a rock or my hand) as the technique for accurate long range sighting. The rifle weighs 11 pounds with scope and I'd rather shoot it than my buddies 8 pound .270 as far as felt recoil. It shoots at .300 RUM speeds with MUCH less recoil and much better burn. I am amazed that I am getting single digit velocity deviations (weighing bullets and cases) with IMR4831. For long range, I shoot 2800-3000 fps 210g Bergers for hunting and 210 Sierra Match Kings for targets. As you mentioned above, these will yaw for the first 300 yards or so before they stabilize coming out of the barrel so 100 or 200 yard accuracy varies from long range accuracy. The yaw is caused by crown blast on the boat tail that causes a slight variance in the yaw at the muzzle. That is why flat based bullets are typically more accurate at 100 or 200 yards but these babies true up better over the long haul. They stay super-sonic for out to about 1500 yards so I don't have transition problems. Overall I am very happy with it. It is sure capable of .1MOA but I am still working on doing my part better. You can't wiggle much to hold that tolerance but the rifle does it pretty often for me. I find the windage charts and balistics calculators to be very good and reliable. I usually practice at 600 yards too since that is the max distance at my range. For hunting I use holdover out to 600 yards when I have to snap a shot off quick (e.g. 400 yds = horizontal cross hair on spine, 500 yds = eyes, 600 yards = top of rack). My varmint scope has mil dots and I use them for prairie dogs and shots out to 600 yards. For precise long range shots where I have time, I make the scope adjustments and prefer that for accuracy. A guy at the range built a simlar rifle with a .300 Win and same barrel. I haven't beat his best group yet which was a 3/4 inch group at 500 yards but he has a darned Nightforce scope and I think that is doing it for him. Hope this helps... contact me if you would are planning and would like to chat.
For Jeff4066... a lighter bullet can be made to exit the muzzle at higher velocities than a heavy bullet. However, a light bullet will drop more than a heavy VLD (Very Low Drag) bullet at ranges of 600-1000 yards. In general, for long range accuracy, the rule is shoot the heaviest and highest ballistic coefficient (BC) bullet you can get so you can take advantage of its superior air resistance. In horse racing terms, the big bullets are slow out of the chute but they are fast in the stretch. The faster light bullets like the 130 grain that Clay is referring to are very fast and flat shooting but with their lower BC they sucumb to air resistance and slow down faster than most heavier bullets as they move through the air. At about 600 yards, they are actually moving slower than the big bullet that originally left the muzzle at a slower speed. At 1000 yards the bigger VLD bullets are moving much faster than their little buddies. Think of it as throwing a grain of pepper into the wind. The pepper starts out fast but slows down quickly because of the air resistance. The 130s are real nice for ranges less than 500 yards and still have over 1000 ft/lbs of energy at 600 yards which is plenty to deck a deer. However, at those long ranges, the 180 grain bullet will have more energy and more speed because it is maintaining its speed better at that range.
Thanks DakotaMan, I appreciate your response. Sounds like an excellent rifle. I had a .300 Win. Mag. Put together this year and settled on a 210 Berger VLD I'm pushing a little over 2900fps. It has enough energy and velocity to take game at 1100 yards. I'm extremely happy with my build as well.
i was looking here i got to go to NRA 600 yard shoot i was thinking 22-250 rem with a better scope? one made for 223 with drop comp dial, or mil dots or 243 win or 25-06 might be better most my guns work good to 300 yards ie scope's i use 2 in high at 50 yards = 2 in low at 300 yards the loads and type of guns they are, this way a normal scope would work, i wish i had that Bushnell scope i used to smoke that wood-chuck at 850 plus yards that was on a 6mm Remington! a 243 win almost same gun!
Gregg. I know that this is an old thread but if you are still tinkering, you can certainly use the .243 Win (6mm) for excellent 600-1000 yard accuracy using any VLD bullet from the 105 Berger to the 115g DTAC bullet. Take a look at 6mmbr.com for good info on using the .243 for long range shooting. You will be limited to about 400 yards for deer because it just doesn't pack the long range energy that the 7mm to .338 caliber bullets do.
With a special barrel, the 22-250 would work well too out to 600 yards. However, to score at that range you will have to shoot the heavier, high B.C. bullets. You will probably find the best bullets will require an 8 twist barrel. The standard 12 twist 22-250 barrel won't stabilize big VLD bullets and the wind will kill you in competition at 600 yards with something like 55g bullets. My .223 does great at 600 yards and a 22-250 should do even better.
You will need a zero parallax scope like a Leupold VXIII or better or a Nightforce, U.S. Optics, etc. This will prevent your shots from wandering if you move your eye .0001 inch to one side or the other as you aim. You will probably need a 20 MOA scope base so that you can adjust your reticle for dead on impact at 600 yards since many scopes don't have that much elevation on the reticle adjustment. Graduated reticles are great for hunting but don't use them in competition... too many risks in scope alignment for tight scores. If your .243 is not glass bedded, you should do that too. It will probably cut your 600 yard groups in half.
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