Then a good waterfowl dog you aren't considering very much. You'd better get a pointing lab, work with it a lot, and make it your best buddy.

No, what kind of person and hunter are you? Those are the questions you need to ponder my friend. If you only hunt waterfowl rarely and then no Geese? Then an upland, pointing or closer flushing breed might well be fine. Do you hunt a heck of a lot? Because if you really love hunting, but do not hunt that much as to where you'd need a dog, you can get some of the smaller dogs like a Brittany Spaniel which, in my limited experience, are wonderful pets. The only ones I ever shot over were quite good in limited duty (they will wear down before covering as much terrain as a longer legged animal—so where you hunt is also important because conversely, a small dog can often get under cover rather than barreling through it a la Lab or Shorthair).

My shorthair would retrieve in water, but I would never have exposed him to a steady diet of cold water retrieval, I believe it is bad for their joints. He was a stubborn almost brutish animal, loyal to me alone, good with all people to be sure, but really only my dog. He was also the finest dog in the history of dogs, please do not contradict me.

The idea of talking to a breeder is a great one, but I'd make sure they carry more than one dog because as the above-posting gent mentioned, Lab breeders only like labs, Shorthair breeders same. Also, talk to a professional gun dog trainer or eight. If you have any field trials in your area, you really should attend them and ask the owners these questions. This all sounds like a lot of work, but you could end up with a substantial investment cash-wise so make as informed of a choice as possible. Also, once that dog is entrained in your family’s heart? You can’t take it back for a racier model. You could have it for 15 years.

In America, a pointer as the all-purpose dog being is a relatively new phenomena what with the Labrador being the champ in that category in this nation (again, my opinion only).

One thing I would tell you: determine first--honestly now not what you "might" do if your life changes tomorrow--how much will the dog be hunted and under what conditions? That should help to determine the breed more than what you personally want. Secondly, don't go in with preconceived notions of what you think are the only breeds worth having, and do not get a dog from a family pet breeder or all the brains will have been bred out long ago.

Everyone has had a dog they loved. Guess what: that is the one they will recommend to you because the question stirs up emotional responses for them. But, starting with the limitations you have noted—a family dog and ducks will be hunted—in my personal opinion, you are very likely looking at a Labrador retriever. You can get a fine one for a reasonable investment and they are sweet hearted slobs for the most part. Now, if you get a big Lab that wants to hunt guess what? You and the family will have a major new time investment keeping “Barney” the slobbering monster happily engaged. Hunting dogs are a huge investment in time—but worth it if you are that kind of man. Training or keeping up the dog with your kids can be a wonderful way for your family to get outside together. So, start with who are you and how much hunting, not what kind of dog. Other breeds I have seen work well in multiple roles and lovely to have as pets would be the Vizsla and the Draathar. I have never, not one time, shot birds over a badly performing Vizsla, and that is the only breed I can say that about. Whether or not a breed is easy to train is another important consideration for you, unless you will have it done for you (personal bias, do not use someone who relies on a shock collar to train it, such trainers have likely become lazy or are bad at their jobs).

The best choice for you must be determined by you, not by anyone else’s opinion and must be based upon who you are. That said, getting a pointer and getting your hunting buddy to buy the Lab is also a wise idea. Best of luck, a good dog to hunt with can really affect a man's life, leaving him with memories that will fill his heart for decades after that dog has moved to other huinting grounds. I know.

Breeding and especially bloodlines aside, what is your opinion, in general, between huntability and trainability differences between English and American labs? Have you found one to be more birdie? While one may be more obedient or willing to please while hunting? If I had my preference, I would rather have an English in a blind with me, while I could see where an American that has an equal level of training might be more preferred in an upland type setting. I'm sure that it's alot to do with personal preference and ignorance on my part, but I'm still interested to see anothers opinion.

Nice to hear my opinion is shared. Thank you for the input. I hope this might help in any decision making for a future gun dog owner.

Make sure that whatever you choose for a dog is either OFA good or excellent in hips and eyes. It can mean a huge difference in both the health and happiness of your new hunting partner and also avoid putting a big dent in your wallet in the future.

As far as "pointing" Labradors? Here is my personal, less than professional opinion:

There is no such dog. I've heard guys say this about labs we shot over, only to find it a true flushing hunter. Turns out their reason for calling it a pointer was it slowe ddown or paused long enough to be positive it smelled a bird before it stuck it's nose in, or would actually wait before flushing on command if trained really superbly. Neither of those are actually "pointing". That a dog might turn its head sharply when it catches a scent and stare at a clump before nosing it should never be mistaken for a point. They are great to shoot over if they are trained to stay close. A running lab too far out front or on the sides is a menace in the field, it will get excited and bump up birds out of range and only start to hunt close when it is worn out and all the birds are long gone. Properly trained labs that work close and which you can train to a hold command so that the hunters can close on the dog are terrific.

Pointers, true pointers, will freeze and if good, not break point at all until told to/or the bird(s) flushes. Labs do not naturally do this. I have shot over labs that "appeared to kind of" do this, but not truly point. This is not a knock on labs, simply what they genetically do. You can have a poorly trained pointer that will behave like a flusher--seen plenty of those.

Also, no matter how much you work with them, no matter how much you pay for a dog, sometimes you simply get one that is not as good as the other guy's dog. Sometimes the dog will be almost worthless in the field, it is a real possibility--no guarantees can be given when rolling the dice on genetic material.

Good luck mate.

MBob, I have a five year-old lab with no papers that will go rock solid on a pheasant if it will hold for her. She won't sneak on them like a pointer but if she comes onto one and it holds she will not break point even if I command her to. And my older black lab will honor her point and SHE won't flush em either. All of this has come naturally as I am perfectly happy to shoot over a flushing dog. I find it much more exciting, albeit less deadly than hunting over pointers. I'll take exciting over deadly any day.

If my labs are working in the range for me to shoot, I have no interest in commanding them to hold. I don't need to be able to walk up on top of the bird to shoot it. Most of the fun is the excitement of not knowing when the bird is going to get up and still knocking it down.

I've had my share of both Pointers and Retrievers. I don't understand the logic of making a Lab a pointing dog, when he is the most versatile of all the flushing dogs.
There are times on running birds,in corn, dense thickets when it is hard to beat a flusher (Labs, Springers, Cockers)....However,there is no way one can cover as much ground with a flusher as you can cover with a good pointing dog (English Pointer, Setter, GSP, Brit).The Flusher has to stay withing gun range! A pointer can cover 4,5,6 times the same ground with his head high and hold the bird until you walk to him in a straight line.
We have both and try and use the right dog for the right cover, conditions and bird species. There is always a perfect breed for every situation. If one hunts a mixed bag, then you adjust accordingly. Sure our Brit can drag in a goose, but the Lab can do it all day long. Sure the Lab can hunt the grouse woods and alders, but the Setter on point gives me time to get a shot off. All dogs are better than no dog and in any given situation a pointer beats a flusher and vice versa.

I didn't make my younger lab a pointer. Her genes did. She'll flush the bird if it will move. A good pointer/setter won't. They'll follow it (hopefully) and keep it tight. I still enjoy the excitement of not really knowing exactly when the bird is going to flush up. The "setup" is nice too but I don't find it nearly as heart pounding. I'm sure I'll get a lot more pheasants this year now that the little Britt is onto the game but just shooting stuff isn't the reason I'm out there.

Sayfu, I agree. Haven't bought one of those stupid beeper collars and I don't think I ever will. If it gets real heavy cover, I'll just pull her in behind me and let the labs do the work. She is pretty good about staying where I can see her (but not perfect yet!). I regularly work with the dogs on obedience at the open green space a half mile from our place. It should pay off.

I think a flushing dog makes one a better shot,just because you do have less time to react.
That said, I'm a fan off the beeper over the bell (for pointing dogs) just for location purposes. At 60 my hearing has taken a beating over the years and every little bit helps.
As for the pointing dogs way off and lost....that's poor handling and training and has nothing to do with a collar, breed or a bell. Those hunters would have lost the dog with or without the collar. If they had a Lab instead of a pointing dog, it would be flushing birds at 100 yards. Some folks just shouldn't have a dog. We all know who. The guy with the whistle, yelling and screaming at his dog all day. He thinks it's the dog's fault...even though he hasn't worked with it 10 months out of the year. I'd like to put an electronic collar on them. ;)

If you want to train the dog yourself get a black, yellow or chocalate lab. None of that pointing nonsense. Get a puppy and teach it discipline. Your kids can ride on it and pull its tail and ears. There is no rooster it can't sniff out and return to hand. It will crush ice to retrieve ducks. It will catch pheasants by the tail. If you can afford training and think you need a pointer (you don't), I would suggest a German wirehair. Very good all around dogs. I personally have a mutt that looks like a golden retriever, and, although I would recommend a purebred, they are also good all-around hunting dogs and second to none as a family pet.

Whoever posted please take my advice...by a e-collar. Right now my e-collars separate the good hunters from those that have no chance at success unless it is blind luck. The make training easy in many respects, and now I am hunting Hungarian Partridge tracking in the snow that is a real hoot. BUT...my two labs and I have to be very stealthy, no whistles blowing ,no verbal commands..and my one pointing lab gives me half a chance by pointing. They are extremely spooky birds in late season. I hunt them in the sage next to the stubble grain, and they want to first run some, then flush unless cornered. We have had success lately, but only because I can control my dogs range with the beeper button for the young pointer lab, and a low stimulus for the older lab. Then it takes some good shooting to bag one.