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Hunting
Was spider bull fair chase?
Uploaded on January 06, 2009Interesting story on Outdoorlife.com:
http://www.outdoorlife.com/article/Hunting/Spider-Bull-world-record-elk-...
"We reported earlier this week the harvest of what is likely to become the new world-record non-typical elk. The "Spider Bull" was shot in Utah's Monroe Mountain unit in mid-September and green-scores just over 500 inches of antler mass.
It's a helluva trophy, and is a testament to Utah's management in its hard-to-draw trophy units. And the hunter, Denny Austad from Ammon, Idaho, should be recognized for his ability to home in on what is likely the elk of the decade, and possibly the trophy of the century.
But there are a couple of unsettling aspects to this story. For hunters who are passionate about America's tradition of free, public hunting and fret the implications of trophy hunting at any cost, the Spider Bull represents a troubling trend ..."
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Absolutely not. You should earn your kills. Not pay for 'em.
I agree with MeHuntFood. That's appalling behavior on the part of the hunter.
Another rich guy buys a trophy. That's definitely not fair chase. But, is that any different that the hunter who pays $50,000 to shoot a lion in Africa or $5000 for a guided elk hunt in Colorado?
here's another test link http://www.outdorrlife.com
it is truly amazing what a couple hundred thousand dollars can buy.
Fair Chase yes, Fair hunt to the elk no. There was no high fence but the hunter did not put in the time to scout out he elk, That animal deserved to be shot by your average hunter.
By traditional more narrowly defined fair chase, which focuses on the legality and means of taking the animal, and whether it stood a chance to evade the hunter (i.e was not fenced in), then yes, it qualifies. But it surely points to a dialogue that needs to happen because pretty clearly this moves significantly away from the North American model of wildlife management, and pretty much sticks in my craw. Maybe it was fair to the animal in terms of how it was hunted but it sure doesn't seem real fair to the hunters who had zero chance to pursue, not to mention kill it.
Fair chase? Maybe. Was it fair to the elk? The elk didn't care who shot him or how. The elk knows nothing; he is dead.
What matters is that the tradition of citizen hunters having a more or less equal opportunity to share a natural resource which belongs to the them is in jeopardy. I won't judge the hunter. He did what was perfectly legal and within his means. I have often thought that I would not shoot such an animal if I encountered him. No mas. Why would I think of letting him walk so some rich guy can pay to take him next season?
Gotta love crap like this. I live in the east and even whitetail deer seem to be moving this way also. Just look at the Outdoor Channel or Versus. Yes there has always been marketing in TV hunting but there used to be a story with the commercial. All hunting is marketed to how to manage your "lease" or for the less inspired which outfitter has a 150 class buck scheduled to come to a feeder at 10am sharp. In the case of this elk, showing up at camp and the guide knowing where he is bedded.
As for a rifle during any season, everybow hunter knows how impressive their wall could be had they a 270 instead of a bow on certain occassions.
Unfortunatly the Boone and Crocket records have become the complete opposite from which they were origionaly intended. They were origionaly intended to be a record of north american game taken by hunters during the various hunting seasons in north america. They have unfortunatly become the addicting passion of those who call themselves hunters but purchase the holy grail of hunting with no guilt whatsoever. I enjoy reading about those who earned their trophy without guides who operate with the mindset of "money talks and the rest is all B.S." These hunters earned it! My hat's off to all of you. For the rest it's like buying a trophy at a trophy shop and then bragging to the world about how you earned it, Pitiful,sickning,greed. Thats all it really is. Too bad an American icon like B&C tarnishes itself over it.
Yes it was fair chase!! Mr. Austad hunted hard for two weeks, took a one week break and then harvested this trophy the first week after returning. When hunting Monroe mountain there is no easy times. This is a very physically demanding hunt. True mountain hunting, not hill hunting!! As far as paying thousands of dollars to hunt with an extended season, so what? This money all goes to benefit everyone in that state who hunts. Bow hunters all had an equal chance at this Bull during this time. Utah was known as the raghorn state for Elk in the early nineties and look at them now. Easily the best Elk hunting state in North America. This is what the sportsmen of Utah wanted and this is what they GOT!!!
So what your saying is that if someone pays thousands of dollars to hunt an extended season that no one else can hunt that's okay because that money will benefit everyone in that state EXCEPT those who cannot pay thousands of dollars to hunt the extended seasons where you can take the states largest animals. That would sound fair to a rich man, what about the average hunter??
This is not a rich man poor man issue. Why do you have to take it there. This is one person, one person purchasing one tag that it would take tens of thousands of average hunters to equal the revenue that is generated from this one tag. EVERYONE who hunts benefits from this money. Habitat improvements result in more tags for EVERYONE!!!!
The bow hunters do not have equal chance as a with a rifle hunter all other things being equal. 40 yards average max range vs 250 yards or more max range. I use the rifle 100 percent during general firearms season(not a special only me season) for this very reason.
In my eyes it shouldn’t be counted, how is that “fair” when other hunters can hardly afford an $800 Elk tag?
Lot's of guys pay thousands of dollars for guided hunts and nobody disputes that it is fair chase. The problem here is that Mr. Austad was able to buy his way into a hunt that would have been illegal for anyone else. He hunted with a rifle during bow season. That should not be allowed for any amount of money. I'm a rifle hunter and so my elk season doesn't start until the rut is over. I scout for elk during archery season and this year I had 6 bulls in rifle range and 2 in bow range while scouting. But when rifle season came around I never had the oportunity for a shot. If I had shot one of those bulls during archery season I would be incarcerated right now.
I also would like to say that regardless of how it was killed the spiderbull was a wild elk that acheived large size and was an incredible animal. Unlike many whitetail deer that reach record book size because someone is feeding them enhanced food plot clover. Bucks that result from food plots should not be recorded in the books.
How is his hunt any different from Teddy Roosevelts extravagant safaris around the world?
Thank you Mr. Austad for your $170,000 donation to Utahs elk funding efforts.
too bad he got this amazing elk instead of the local hunters in the area who actually do the work themselves
I am so conflicted about this. My right wing says he worked years to earn the money to buy the tag and did nothing illegal. My left wing says he bought his way into a special season with special priveleges, he purchased his way around the rules the rest of us have to follow. Fortunately I don't have to make these decisions but just comment on them.
I hate to say it guys but if you have the cash to spend you can just about buy whatever trophy you want. A friend of mine just got back from Saskatchewan (sp?) with a 440 bull, a whitetail that will go well into the book, and a monster bison bull. All acquired for a sizeable piece of money. He is the great hunter, just look at the photos, one of which is already published in a local sportsman's magazine. The average paycheck to paycheck guy does not have a chance to even make the trip this guy did let alone afford the hunt. Does that make the average guy less of a hunter? Hell no, it is the the disposable income differential that created this situation. Like lots of things in life are not fair but are reality just the same. Honestly I don't think there is anything we can do but complain. Maybe we should jump on the guys selling the hunts and animals as much as the buyers.
That's not hunting. That's almost one step short of grocery shopping... you pay for both!!
this is the problem with the way hunting is going these days. the commercialization of the game is doing nothing but harm to our hunting traditions. if this guy wanted to be a stand up guy and a true sprotsman he could have donated the money to the state to help with game management and bought a normal tag and hunted a trophy bull like the rest of us.
Governor's tags are a great idea, but only they are raffled off so that anyone can particpate. To sell them to the highest bidder is not just right. If the trend continues and the average guy loses interest, then the sport of hunting will be finished.
Golfings got it right. Fair chase? I guess, no high fences here.
He did buy the tag($170,000). Was on a guided hunt(well, paid the guides to find/keep eye on him). Should he be "counted"? I don't know because he WAS rifle hunting during bow season after all. It is a nice bull, and the money collected will go to a good cause. Maybe they should do "The Gov. Tag " like they do elk here in Ark., by lottery draw.
Auction tags are a great way to raise money for wildlife organizations like RMEF and fish & wildlife agencies. To make it more satisfying to a broader group of hunters, why not have an equal number of raffle/lottery draw tags and auction big $ tags? many of the special raffle tags in WA are won by a hunter with ONE $5 chance in the raffle. What's the big differnce in taking 2 bulls out of an area vice 1? If the numbers are that skinny, take none. Just a thought.....
PS:
If the thousands of hunters that flood elk country during "spike only" seasons in WA are any indication of interest, I doubt that one or two Governor's tags will quence the fires of many, save for a few super idealists.
I don't have a problem with anyone paying big dollars to kill and animal, but it should not be placed in the record book, and it should be clearly stated as being taken as such!
The bull was taken by Mossback LLC and should be stated so on the record books. One man did not kill this elk, a company killed the animal.
ishawooa, shoot me an email...I have questions.
rodeo_rudy@yahoo.com
We tread a slippery slope these days, i'm afraid. Lots of grey areas. I hate grey
I think this should be in the record books, mostly because this elk broke the record of an elk that was found dead. I don't respect how they did it but if dead animals can be found and called a record then I guess this one too.
If I was rich enough I would probably do the same, I would certainly full fill my lifelong dream of an African Safari for the big 5 and a "Full Ticket" I suspect many people here complaining would also. After all many clients not just PH's have died trying.
But 1 button bucksince I am NOT rich I walked 15 miles for 1 button buck and 2 does for the freezer. In -0 weather.
chit!!! @$#% laptoops!
it was fair chas, the hunter just didnt put his own effort into finding the animal, he payed someone to do it for him, he still probably did a lot of walking and put a lot of time in, he just had assistance of someone who knew the area
who cares i was a nice bull anyways
I have the means to buy a guided hunt on private property and hunt elk that have felt no real hunting pressure. These types of hunts offer up an opportunity to score a huge bull, but what was the challenge and adventure of it. I have been hunting elk my entire life and the experience of taking years to score a 4x4 bull elk with my bow was one of the most rewarding things I have ever done. I was jumping up and down and screaming and smiling for months...I still smile and feel good about it. It took years to score my first elk with a bow and it's maybe a 200 point 4x4 bull, but I'm so proud of it. Shooting a 350 plus bull is my goal, but to accomplish it in 4 hours walking from my truck to "the spot" and making a shot with a rifle is not hunting...that's shooting. I would take my 4x4 over this bull any day. I am not against rifle hunting, but hunting an elk that has never been hunted with a rifle is target practice not hunting. I love to hunt. That's the difference. I love to hunt it's not all about having the rack. You can buy a good elk rack on craig's list that's about the thrill of what this guy accomplished. I love to hunt!
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Fair chase? Maybe. Was it fair to the elk? The elk didn't care who shot him or how. The elk knows nothing; he is dead.
What matters is that the tradition of citizen hunters having a more or less equal opportunity to share a natural resource which belongs to the them is in jeopardy. I won't judge the hunter. He did what was perfectly legal and within his means. I have often thought that I would not shoot such an animal if I encountered him. No mas. Why would I think of letting him walk so some rich guy can pay to take him next season?
Lot's of guys pay thousands of dollars for guided hunts and nobody disputes that it is fair chase. The problem here is that Mr. Austad was able to buy his way into a hunt that would have been illegal for anyone else. He hunted with a rifle during bow season. That should not be allowed for any amount of money. I'm a rifle hunter and so my elk season doesn't start until the rut is over. I scout for elk during archery season and this year I had 6 bulls in rifle range and 2 in bow range while scouting. But when rifle season came around I never had the oportunity for a shot. If I had shot one of those bulls during archery season I would be incarcerated right now.
I hate to say it guys but if you have the cash to spend you can just about buy whatever trophy you want. A friend of mine just got back from Saskatchewan (sp?) with a 440 bull, a whitetail that will go well into the book, and a monster bison bull. All acquired for a sizeable piece of money. He is the great hunter, just look at the photos, one of which is already published in a local sportsman's magazine. The average paycheck to paycheck guy does not have a chance to even make the trip this guy did let alone afford the hunt. Does that make the average guy less of a hunter? Hell no, it is the the disposable income differential that created this situation. Like lots of things in life are not fair but are reality just the same. Honestly I don't think there is anything we can do but complain. Maybe we should jump on the guys selling the hunts and animals as much as the buyers.
Absolutely not. You should earn your kills. Not pay for 'em.
Another rich guy buys a trophy. That's definitely not fair chase. But, is that any different that the hunter who pays $50,000 to shoot a lion in Africa or $5000 for a guided elk hunt in Colorado?
Gotta love crap like this. I live in the east and even whitetail deer seem to be moving this way also. Just look at the Outdoor Channel or Versus. Yes there has always been marketing in TV hunting but there used to be a story with the commercial. All hunting is marketed to how to manage your "lease" or for the less inspired which outfitter has a 150 class buck scheduled to come to a feeder at 10am sharp. In the case of this elk, showing up at camp and the guide knowing where he is bedded.
As for a rifle during any season, everybow hunter knows how impressive their wall could be had they a 270 instead of a bow on certain occassions.
Unfortunatly the Boone and Crocket records have become the complete opposite from which they were origionaly intended. They were origionaly intended to be a record of north american game taken by hunters during the various hunting seasons in north america. They have unfortunatly become the addicting passion of those who call themselves hunters but purchase the holy grail of hunting with no guilt whatsoever. I enjoy reading about those who earned their trophy without guides who operate with the mindset of "money talks and the rest is all B.S." These hunters earned it! My hat's off to all of you. For the rest it's like buying a trophy at a trophy shop and then bragging to the world about how you earned it, Pitiful,sickning,greed. Thats all it really is. Too bad an American icon like B&C tarnishes itself over it.
this is the problem with the way hunting is going these days. the commercialization of the game is doing nothing but harm to our hunting traditions. if this guy wanted to be a stand up guy and a true sprotsman he could have donated the money to the state to help with game management and bought a normal tag and hunted a trophy bull like the rest of us.
Governor's tags are a great idea, but only they are raffled off so that anyone can particpate. To sell them to the highest bidder is not just right. If the trend continues and the average guy loses interest, then the sport of hunting will be finished.
I don't have a problem with anyone paying big dollars to kill and animal, but it should not be placed in the record book, and it should be clearly stated as being taken as such!
The bull was taken by Mossback LLC and should be stated so on the record books. One man did not kill this elk, a company killed the animal.
it is truly amazing what a couple hundred thousand dollars can buy.
By traditional more narrowly defined fair chase, which focuses on the legality and means of taking the animal, and whether it stood a chance to evade the hunter (i.e was not fenced in), then yes, it qualifies. But it surely points to a dialogue that needs to happen because pretty clearly this moves significantly away from the North American model of wildlife management, and pretty much sticks in my craw. Maybe it was fair to the animal in terms of how it was hunted but it sure doesn't seem real fair to the hunters who had zero chance to pursue, not to mention kill it.
So what your saying is that if someone pays thousands of dollars to hunt an extended season that no one else can hunt that's okay because that money will benefit everyone in that state EXCEPT those who cannot pay thousands of dollars to hunt the extended seasons where you can take the states largest animals. That would sound fair to a rich man, what about the average hunter??
too bad he got this amazing elk instead of the local hunters in the area who actually do the work themselves
Golfings got it right. Fair chase? I guess, no high fences here.
He did buy the tag($170,000). Was on a guided hunt(well, paid the guides to find/keep eye on him). Should he be "counted"? I don't know because he WAS rifle hunting during bow season after all. It is a nice bull, and the money collected will go to a good cause. Maybe they should do "The Gov. Tag " like they do elk here in Ark., by lottery draw.
I agree with MeHuntFood. That's appalling behavior on the part of the hunter.
Fair Chase yes, Fair hunt to the elk no. There was no high fence but the hunter did not put in the time to scout out he elk, That animal deserved to be shot by your average hunter.
This is not a rich man poor man issue. Why do you have to take it there. This is one person, one person purchasing one tag that it would take tens of thousands of average hunters to equal the revenue that is generated from this one tag. EVERYONE who hunts benefits from this money. Habitat improvements result in more tags for EVERYONE!!!!
In my eyes it shouldn’t be counted, how is that “fair” when other hunters can hardly afford an $800 Elk tag?
How is his hunt any different from Teddy Roosevelts extravagant safaris around the world?
Thank you Mr. Austad for your $170,000 donation to Utahs elk funding efforts.
I am so conflicted about this. My right wing says he worked years to earn the money to buy the tag and did nothing illegal. My left wing says he bought his way into a special season with special priveleges, he purchased his way around the rules the rest of us have to follow. Fortunately I don't have to make these decisions but just comment on them.
That's not hunting. That's almost one step short of grocery shopping... you pay for both!!
Auction tags are a great way to raise money for wildlife organizations like RMEF and fish & wildlife agencies. To make it more satisfying to a broader group of hunters, why not have an equal number of raffle/lottery draw tags and auction big $ tags? many of the special raffle tags in WA are won by a hunter with ONE $5 chance in the raffle. What's the big differnce in taking 2 bulls out of an area vice 1? If the numbers are that skinny, take none. Just a thought.....
PS:
If the thousands of hunters that flood elk country during "spike only" seasons in WA are any indication of interest, I doubt that one or two Governor's tags will quence the fires of many, save for a few super idealists.
We tread a slippery slope these days, i'm afraid. Lots of grey areas. I hate grey
here's another test link http://www.outdorrlife.com
The bow hunters do not have equal chance as a with a rifle hunter all other things being equal. 40 yards average max range vs 250 yards or more max range. I use the rifle 100 percent during general firearms season(not a special only me season) for this very reason.
I also would like to say that regardless of how it was killed the spiderbull was a wild elk that acheived large size and was an incredible animal. Unlike many whitetail deer that reach record book size because someone is feeding them enhanced food plot clover. Bucks that result from food plots should not be recorded in the books.
ishawooa, shoot me an email...I have questions.
rodeo_rudy@yahoo.com
I think this should be in the record books, mostly because this elk broke the record of an elk that was found dead. I don't respect how they did it but if dead animals can be found and called a record then I guess this one too.
If I was rich enough I would probably do the same, I would certainly full fill my lifelong dream of an African Safari for the big 5 and a "Full Ticket" I suspect many people here complaining would also. After all many clients not just PH's have died trying.
I have the means to buy a guided hunt on private property and hunt elk that have felt no real hunting pressure. These types of hunts offer up an opportunity to score a huge bull, but what was the challenge and adventure of it. I have been hunting elk my entire life and the experience of taking years to score a 4x4 bull elk with my bow was one of the most rewarding things I have ever done. I was jumping up and down and screaming and smiling for months...I still smile and feel good about it. It took years to score my first elk with a bow and it's maybe a 200 point 4x4 bull, but I'm so proud of it. Shooting a 350 plus bull is my goal, but to accomplish it in 4 hours walking from my truck to "the spot" and making a shot with a rifle is not hunting...that's shooting. I would take my 4x4 over this bull any day. I am not against rifle hunting, but hunting an elk that has never been hunted with a rifle is target practice not hunting. I love to hunt. That's the difference. I love to hunt it's not all about having the rack. You can buy a good elk rack on craig's list that's about the thrill of what this guy accomplished. I love to hunt!
But 1 button bucksince I am NOT rich I walked 15 miles for 1 button buck and 2 does for the freezer. In -0 weather.
chit!!! @$#% laptoops!
it was fair chas, the hunter just didnt put his own effort into finding the animal, he payed someone to do it for him, he still probably did a lot of walking and put a lot of time in, he just had assistance of someone who knew the area
who cares i was a nice bull anyways
Yes it was fair chase!! Mr. Austad hunted hard for two weeks, took a one week break and then harvested this trophy the first week after returning. When hunting Monroe mountain there is no easy times. This is a very physically demanding hunt. True mountain hunting, not hill hunting!! As far as paying thousands of dollars to hunt with an extended season, so what? This money all goes to benefit everyone in that state who hunts. Bow hunters all had an equal chance at this Bull during this time. Utah was known as the raghorn state for Elk in the early nineties and look at them now. Easily the best Elk hunting state in North America. This is what the sportsmen of Utah wanted and this is what they GOT!!!
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