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I would like to have a debate on abortion with all of you guys here.I think it would be interesting to hear all of your opinoins and views on this subject.So to get the ball rolling here are a few things we can debate first.
1.Fetal Pain-Last time I tried to have a debate about this I was called things like heartless liberal and evil but I hope we can have debate this subject this time without all the childish name calling.
2.A Woman's Choice-Don't you guys thing that it's a little unfair trying to tell women what to do with their bodies, I mean how would you like some Washington Lawmaker telling you what to do with your nuts?
3.Population Control-Ontario Honker brought up an excellent point not to far back.If we ban abortion our population would go through the roof and then when we run out of crude what will we burn?Trees of course, I mean our forests have already shrunk enough just think about what this would to them, not to mention all the polution that would result from this.
4.Age Limits-There are a lot of people out there who think that when a fetus gets to a certain age that it should have full constitutional rights.Now even I beleive that a baby becomes human at a certain time in the womb and should not be allowed to be aborted.What your thoughts on this?I'm especially interested in your opinion on this Ontario Honker.
Alright I will try not to add a more correct name this time.
1. If you go back to your original thread and read my latest post on that subject perhaps you will see things a little different, but I doubt it. So here it is in a nutshell, a physical reaction IS a direct sign of the fact that something CAN feel pain.
2. I am not trying to force a woman to do something with her own body, she wants a tattoo, that's fine by me; she wants to cut her arm off, whatever, it's her body. But a baby is another human being, and that is something that needs to be protected, that is what our original government what set up for... the protection of basic human rights, and the most important of them are outlined in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, "Among these to be life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".
3. population? POPULATION!? Liberals hate war because of all the lives lost and people killed, yet liberals hate it when the US steps in when a nation is killing it's own citizens. Again read my last post on your other thread, was the genocide in Darfur not simply a late term abortion? If our population is too high, then why do the liberals want to open our borders to immigrants, or are they not considered population? That's all I'm gonna say right now, but I could continue on this forever and a day.
4. Unless conceived by other means than traditional man and woman genetic donations, a human fetus is human no matter how small it is. If something cannot develop into something else, or be coaxed into developing into something else, it is of the original species that it was conceived by---plain and simple.
5. It seems to me that if liberals are so concerned about population control then they would throw huge parties every time a death row inmate was introduced to a needle, right? Instead of protesting capital punishment.
But before you say it, true conservatives are concerned with protecting lives-right? But we condone capital punishment. That human being on death row has stolen the life of another innocent human being or committed some other heinous crime and by doing so has forfeited his own right to life.
How many lives has that unborn child taken?
How many crimes has he committed?
What has he done that is punishable by torture (since we cleared up the little matter of pain) and death?
No debate here!
Once the fertilized egg implants on the uterine wall, it's a human being with all the rights afforded to ANY human by our Constitution!
Abortion IS murder! No debate needed!
.....and by the way, you titled your last thread as "Conservative stupidity...."
...and you wonder why it devolved into name calling!
What an idiot!
Question; why does a fetus conceived by non- traditional means not have human rights? They have committed no more crimes than any other baby.
No man is going to tell a woman what she can and can not do with her body. Not the Pope, nor the Supreme Court nor some idiot in Washington, D.C.. If an abortion becomes illegal, she will find a way - she has been finding ways since the beginning of time.
My only hope is she does this VERY early, like the morning after pill or regular birth control pills so she does not even need the procedure.
Unfortunately this divide becomes a hotly contested political issue and major elections are skewed by the positions of candidates on this one issue and none of the other major issues facing the Country get equal time. It is what it is. JMHO.
1.Read this.
www.abortionfacts.com/facts/13
2.I don't care what women do to their bodies, they can do anything thing they want to themselves as far as I am concered. But an abortion isn't just something that a woman does to their body, they are also doing something to somebody else's body.
3."When we run out of crude then what will we burn?Trees of course." From my observations it seems that most people don't rely on petroleum products for heating any more, most people I know use electric heaters. And when the crude does dry up we will still have renewable feuls like bio-diesel and ethanol to take the place of things like gasoline and regular diesel."I mean our forests have already shrunk enough just think about what this would do to them." Acually Bleeding-Heart, there is more forest area in the United States now than when the Pilgrims arrived. And lastly, OVERPOPLULATION IS A MYTH.
www.overpopulationisamyth.com/
4.My opinion on this is that a baby conceived by any means should have full constitutional rights at conception.
Agreed.
Greenjacket95, if it was me you are talking to what I really meant was (and said), genetic donations by a man and woman (human sperm and eggs) not animal. I hope it wasn't taken to mean in-vitro or something like that, I have friends who have used this method of conception before and believe it to be a miracle of science; when someone hasn't been able to conceive through "normal" means, science steps in and give humans a second chance to build their dreams.
No matter the type of conception used, as long as it is human, it has the rights granted to it by God and the Constitution.
My thoughts on #2. Dont you think its a little unfair to tell me what style of gun I can own, how much soda I can drink, how much electricity I can use. Lets be consistent here. Why is it ok for mayor Bloomberg to limit soda sizes and push an anti smoking agenda? Isnt it our choice what we want to do with our bodies? Thats your argument isnt it, it should be the womans choice? Like I said where is the consistency. Im conservative and pro choice. But Im the libertarian style of pro choice meaning I dont want any lawmakers telling me or anybody else what to do with ourselves, in regards to anything not just abortion. Im not going to justify abortion. Its wrong period. But put bluntly I dont think its of the governments concern. It should be a personal choice. A choice you will have to live with for the rest of your life.
Thats a wonderful thought Ncarl, even though you admit abortion is wrong[i'm also assuming that since that's your opinion on abortion you also beleive unborn babies are human]you still think that the government shouldn't able to tell women that they can't inflict toturous deaths upon their own children just because it might efect their lives, if women don't want their lives effected by children then they shouldn't have sexx or use prventive medication. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that the government should be able to tell people to do with their own bodies, but in some cases it should be able to tell people what they can do to other peoples bodies. I'm sure you would have a different opinion if your mother had aborted you, oh wait, you wouldn't have an opinion at all.
jhjimbo,
If abortion does become illegal one day it will without a doubt NOT become a thing of the past. However, it sure as hell would prevent alot of them. And if abortion does become illegal one day and only saves one life, then it still would have been worth it.
Isn't Ontario going to give us his take on these things.
Another thought is, if we can't stop abortion totally then there should be a mandate requiring total sterility be enforced if one chooses abortion. If you don't want this child then you shouldn't want another.
Bleeding-Heart Liberal,
What petroleum products are there that are replaceable by wood and are in such common use that the loss of them would result in the destruction of our forests?
This can't really be a debate if the pro-choicers aren't going to give us their thoughts those things.
thirty_aught_six I was just wondering where the debate was! Either we won him, lost him or he got so mad he threw his computer away!
The abortion issue is a microcosim of liberal thinking in general. It's hypocrytical,it's a double standard,it allows for no personal responsibility and it is not logical.
Liberals continually tout themselves as caring, feeling individuals who have the market cornered on kindness and empathy. Yet they condone the barabaric act of abortion. They say the NRA is "killing our children" as they staunchly defend the murders of hundreds of thousands of unborns each year via abortion.
They say the government has no right to say what a woman can do with her body yet scream for government ran healthcare that does just that to every American.
They say we have to pass draconian gun laws because they could "save just one life". Yet they want no laws whatsoever concerning abortion which would save countless lives.
They talk of abortions being neccessary in some cases to save the mother's life but this same arguement goes out the window when it comes to guns and self defense.
Abortions are neccessary for population control? This is the left wing alternative to being sexually responsible.
Again, no personal responsibility. Do whatever want at the moment because you can get an abortion later.
Where are the press conferences and crocodile tears from our grief stricken leaders for all the babies who are put to death evey day by abortions?
Well stated oakwood phantom.
Oakwood phantom you said everything I wanted to, but couldn't find the proper words to say! If the liberals don't want to read my comments, read his, they are true.
Since no pro-deathers replied i'm going to assume that we won.
Hoo-ah!
Even Ol' Hoski couldn't come up with a statement.
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1.Read this.
www.abortionfacts.com/facts/13
2.I don't care what women do to their bodies, they can do anything thing they want to themselves as far as I am concered. But an abortion isn't just something that a woman does to their body, they are also doing something to somebody else's body.
3."When we run out of crude then what will we burn?Trees of course." From my observations it seems that most people don't rely on petroleum products for heating any more, most people I know use electric heaters. And when the crude does dry up we will still have renewable feuls like bio-diesel and ethanol to take the place of things like gasoline and regular diesel."I mean our forests have already shrunk enough just think about what this would do to them." Acually Bleeding-Heart, there is more forest area in the United States now than when the Pilgrims arrived. And lastly, OVERPOPLULATION IS A MYTH.
www.overpopulationisamyth.com/
4.My opinion on this is that a baby conceived by any means should have full constitutional rights at conception.
Since no pro-deathers replied i'm going to assume that we won.
The abortion issue is a microcosim of liberal thinking in general. It's hypocrytical,it's a double standard,it allows for no personal responsibility and it is not logical.
Liberals continually tout themselves as caring, feeling individuals who have the market cornered on kindness and empathy. Yet they condone the barabaric act of abortion. They say the NRA is "killing our children" as they staunchly defend the murders of hundreds of thousands of unborns each year via abortion.
They say the government has no right to say what a woman can do with her body yet scream for government ran healthcare that does just that to every American.
They say we have to pass draconian gun laws because they could "save just one life". Yet they want no laws whatsoever concerning abortion which would save countless lives.
They talk of abortions being neccessary in some cases to save the mother's life but this same arguement goes out the window when it comes to guns and self defense.
Abortions are neccessary for population control? This is the left wing alternative to being sexually responsible.
Again, no personal responsibility. Do whatever want at the moment because you can get an abortion later.
Where are the press conferences and crocodile tears from our grief stricken leaders for all the babies who are put to death evey day by abortions?
No debate here!
Once the fertilized egg implants on the uterine wall, it's a human being with all the rights afforded to ANY human by our Constitution!
Abortion IS murder! No debate needed!
.....and by the way, you titled your last thread as "Conservative stupidity...."
...and you wonder why it devolved into name calling!
What an idiot!
Agreed.
Greenjacket95, if it was me you are talking to what I really meant was (and said), genetic donations by a man and woman (human sperm and eggs) not animal. I hope it wasn't taken to mean in-vitro or something like that, I have friends who have used this method of conception before and believe it to be a miracle of science; when someone hasn't been able to conceive through "normal" means, science steps in and give humans a second chance to build their dreams.
No matter the type of conception used, as long as it is human, it has the rights granted to it by God and the Constitution.
Thats a wonderful thought Ncarl, even though you admit abortion is wrong[i'm also assuming that since that's your opinion on abortion you also beleive unborn babies are human]you still think that the government shouldn't able to tell women that they can't inflict toturous deaths upon their own children just because it might efect their lives, if women don't want their lives effected by children then they shouldn't have sexx or use prventive medication. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that the government should be able to tell people to do with their own bodies, but in some cases it should be able to tell people what they can do to other peoples bodies. I'm sure you would have a different opinion if your mother had aborted you, oh wait, you wouldn't have an opinion at all.
jhjimbo,
If abortion does become illegal one day it will without a doubt NOT become a thing of the past. However, it sure as hell would prevent alot of them. And if abortion does become illegal one day and only saves one life, then it still would have been worth it.
Isn't Ontario going to give us his take on these things.
Another thought is, if we can't stop abortion totally then there should be a mandate requiring total sterility be enforced if one chooses abortion. If you don't want this child then you shouldn't want another.
Bleeding-Heart Liberal,
What petroleum products are there that are replaceable by wood and are in such common use that the loss of them would result in the destruction of our forests?
This can't really be a debate if the pro-choicers aren't going to give us their thoughts those things.
thirty_aught_six I was just wondering where the debate was! Either we won him, lost him or he got so mad he threw his computer away!
Oakwood phantom you said everything I wanted to, but couldn't find the proper words to say! If the liberals don't want to read my comments, read his, they are true.
Alright I will try not to add a more correct name this time.
1. If you go back to your original thread and read my latest post on that subject perhaps you will see things a little different, but I doubt it. So here it is in a nutshell, a physical reaction IS a direct sign of the fact that something CAN feel pain.
2. I am not trying to force a woman to do something with her own body, she wants a tattoo, that's fine by me; she wants to cut her arm off, whatever, it's her body. But a baby is another human being, and that is something that needs to be protected, that is what our original government what set up for... the protection of basic human rights, and the most important of them are outlined in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, "Among these to be life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".
3. population? POPULATION!? Liberals hate war because of all the lives lost and people killed, yet liberals hate it when the US steps in when a nation is killing it's own citizens. Again read my last post on your other thread, was the genocide in Darfur not simply a late term abortion? If our population is too high, then why do the liberals want to open our borders to immigrants, or are they not considered population? That's all I'm gonna say right now, but I could continue on this forever and a day.
4. Unless conceived by other means than traditional man and woman genetic donations, a human fetus is human no matter how small it is. If something cannot develop into something else, or be coaxed into developing into something else, it is of the original species that it was conceived by---plain and simple.
5. It seems to me that if liberals are so concerned about population control then they would throw huge parties every time a death row inmate was introduced to a needle, right? Instead of protesting capital punishment.
But before you say it, true conservatives are concerned with protecting lives-right? But we condone capital punishment. That human being on death row has stolen the life of another innocent human being or committed some other heinous crime and by doing so has forfeited his own right to life.
How many lives has that unborn child taken?
How many crimes has he committed?
What has he done that is punishable by torture (since we cleared up the little matter of pain) and death?
Well stated oakwood phantom.
Even Ol' Hoski couldn't come up with a statement.
Question; why does a fetus conceived by non- traditional means not have human rights? They have committed no more crimes than any other baby.
No man is going to tell a woman what she can and can not do with her body. Not the Pope, nor the Supreme Court nor some idiot in Washington, D.C.. If an abortion becomes illegal, she will find a way - she has been finding ways since the beginning of time.
My only hope is she does this VERY early, like the morning after pill or regular birth control pills so she does not even need the procedure.
Unfortunately this divide becomes a hotly contested political issue and major elections are skewed by the positions of candidates on this one issue and none of the other major issues facing the Country get equal time. It is what it is. JMHO.
Hoo-ah!
My thoughts on #2. Dont you think its a little unfair to tell me what style of gun I can own, how much soda I can drink, how much electricity I can use. Lets be consistent here. Why is it ok for mayor Bloomberg to limit soda sizes and push an anti smoking agenda? Isnt it our choice what we want to do with our bodies? Thats your argument isnt it, it should be the womans choice? Like I said where is the consistency. Im conservative and pro choice. But Im the libertarian style of pro choice meaning I dont want any lawmakers telling me or anybody else what to do with ourselves, in regards to anything not just abortion. Im not going to justify abortion. Its wrong period. But put bluntly I dont think its of the governments concern. It should be a personal choice. A choice you will have to live with for the rest of your life.
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