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Bombproof Guns: How to Make a Rifle Nearly Indestructible

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November 12, 2007

Bombproof Guns: How to Make a Rifle Nearly Indestructible

By David E. Petzal and Phil Bourjaily

STURDY STOCKS
Stock mishaps are not uncommon. I’ve seen two stocks break in the field, and a third break inside its hard case (without a mark on the case; how the airline managed that one I will never know).

The weakest point on a rifle stock is the grip. If a horse falls on your gun, or you run it over with a truck, or a ramp ape decides to drop your gun case just to see it bounce, there is a good chance that the stock will snap. That’s because natural wood has a directional grain, and if you stress it just right, it will give.

Wood also can come to grief through shrinking or swelling, or by getting soaked with gun oil over the years. The stocks of big-caliber guns may split right down the middle behind the recoil lug.

There are two high-strength alternatives to natural wood. The first is laminated wood, which consists of thin layers of wood glued together. This causes it to weigh more than the real thing but also removes the directional-grain problem, as the layers of wood are positioned with the grain running in opposing directions. Laminated stocks are also resistant to shrinking and swelling if they are properly sealed.

About the only drawback to them, aside from the weight, is that they’re ­ugly—particularly the camo-pattern lami­nates. Seren­geti Stockworks (serengetistockworks.com), however, builds lami­nates that are downright handsome. They use natural wood for the outer layers, and it’s hard to tell Seren­geti stocks from homogeneous wood.

Synthetic stocks are even more enduring, and most of them are lighter than wood. A cheap synthetic stock will snap on you just like a wood stock, but good fiberglass- or Kevlar-based stocks can take almost anything. I’ve seen Kevlar stocks that were run over by pickups, and while they had some dents and scratches, they suffered no other damage.

Nor will they absorb moisture. You can lead synthetics to water, but you can’t make them drink.

STRONG FINISHES
So that leaves the metal. Steel—even so-called stainless steel—enjoys rusting and will do so given half a chance. Many times I’ve hunted in the rain for a week and beheld rust on the bottom of the receiver, the trigger, and many of the bright-metal parts.

Bluing will retard rust for a while. I’ve never seen grease that would keep rust off under sustained wet-weather use. Not ever. The solution, which we are now just beginning to see in widespread use, is a whole variety of advanced rustproof coatings. Here’s a sampling:

• Electroless nickel is good if it’s applied correctly, but some of it is pretty bright for a hunting rifle, and its popularity seems to be waning.
• Parkerizing goes back to before World War II. In it, a greenish-gray chemical is bonded to the steel, and while it holds oil well and is fairly tough, it is exceedingly ugly. Some manufacturers still do it on their tactical guns.
• Lazzeroni uses NP3 on its rifles. This is a pewter-colored blend of nickel and Teflon.
• Charlie Sisk and Nosler employ Cerakote, a ceramic-based finish.
• Nosler coats its rifles’ internal parts with ­MicroSlick, a solid-film lubricant.
• Thermosetting polymers are the choice of Ed Brown (Gen III) and Mark Bansner (K-Kote).
• Remington uses Black TriNyte, which is a multilayer coating of electroless nickel and zirconium nitride.

If you’re interested in bringing this touch of high tech to your own rifle, Mark Bansner will K-Kote your gun for $300 (717-484-2370; ­bansnersrifle.com); and a fine Mississippi gentleman named Walter Birdsong (601-939-7448) will apply a penetrating coating he calls Black-T to everything metal except the chamber and bore for about $200.

Do these coatings work? I hunted in the pouring rain in northern Quebec with the Laz­zeroni rifle for more than a week, giving it no maintenance, and nothing happened to it. It’s never changed point of impact or developed a fleck of rust. Nothing.

Now, maybe someone will do something about scopes.

Comments (86)

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from tippy98c wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

boys,boys,boys......you gotta understand that a Hindu that wont salute the American or a WOMAN whos more manly than chuck norris will never get into office... and if they do.......welllll......theres a reason we own guns.....right?-Tippy98c

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from tippy98c wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

boys,boys,boys......you gotta understand that a Hindu that wont salute the American or a WOMAN whos more manly than chuck norris will never get into office... and if they do.......welllll......theres a reason we own guns.....right?-Tippy98c

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from tippy98c wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

boys,boys,boys......you gotta understand that a Hindu that wont salute the American or a WOMAN whos more manly than chuck norris will never get into office... and if they do.......welllll......theres a reason we own guns.....right?-Tippy98c

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from Western Realism wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

South of Mason Dixon Line, you are a bigot. It scares us all that you own a gun too. Have you even left your state? The world is bigger than your neighborhood.

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from South of Mason Dixon Line wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

Don;t believe the Black Dude's mother was white, maybe fron Kansas but not a White girl. Like I said, you guys worring about Hillary and your guns, better forget that and worry about the Dude running this country. Look what the Mexican Pres has done to us. O well Race and relegion will enter the race before its over, count on it.This dude has lots of $$ and raising more daily. Just hope he gets beaten early so others, such as Hillary and Edwards can get down to bare facts and not maybe's. But after 7 years of BUSHIE, about anyone would be an improvement. How he's made it 7 yrs without a attempt on his life is beyond me. Man would he make a good target pratice poster boy.

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from Gman wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

I don't think we'll be dukin' it out on this one, Ralph. It's exhausting work, and I have too much paying work on my desk to spend too much time hereBut I am a Yankee; we had nuthin' to do with the first Alamo. My first wife's father was Mexican, though. And her Mom was French-Canadian. How do you feel about the Deerfield massacre of 1704?

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

Well my link was a really nice picture of the Alamo but let's try again...

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

Man, do I love it.... yet another Gman / Alamo gunfight and I'm a Tennessean who is ready to defend the Alamo once again. History repeats itselfffff..... repeats itselfffff.....

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from Gman wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

Funny you should mention the adherence to the deity and prophet, Alamo.I have tried to correct our local editorial page writers who are constantly referring to the "fight against Islamofascism."By definition, the jihadists are theocratic nihilists and can not be fascists because the deity and prophet supersede the state. Now, a guy who believes it is necessary to wiretap my phone or computer without a warrant to satisfy his idea of the security of the state shows more fascistic leanings.I don't really care about the religion thing anymore. Before JFK was elected, the Know Nothings feared he would be subservient to the "Pope of Rome." I would rather an agnostic who was running be honest than pander to the special interests who demand that a candidate be a church-going Bible-reading type.

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from Alamo wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

Gman,You're right about Obama's religion not being an issue, he is a practicing Christian. For that matter an athiest or agnostic is fine with me.I do take exception with your indifference to a practicing Muslim holding the executive office. Islamic scripture is totally antithetical to democratic government. The Quran continuously refers to the adherents obligation to the deity and the prophet to the exclusion of the state.Christian theology notably advises one to "render unto Ceasar,,," effectively seperating religion and affairs of the state. The Hebrew tradition is also notably secularist when politics are involved.Unfotunately Islam makes no such distinctions, and a devout adherent is expected to be loyal to Allah and his prophet above all else.

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from Gman wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

Hey South of Mason Dixon Line:The "black dude's" mom was a white girl from Kansas. And he is a member of the United Church of Christ.There's a lot of confusion over separation of church and state in the Constitution, I know. But nowhere in there does it say that just because somebody is Muslim they would be a bad president. As Americans, we are supposed to be secure enough and brave enough to let a qualified person of any race or religion run for and attain the office if elected by the people.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

Wait a minute, did I say something nice about Hitlery? DELETE... DELETE... DELETE...

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

They were right... Mexico is sucking money out of the U.S. faster than OPEC. Illegal drugs, medical expenses, and all that tax free cash sent home. At least Hillary came out against giving illegal aliens driver's licenses in NY... not that it did any good.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

South of MDLI sure hope this race doesn't get to be a religious crusade! What we need to win over OPEC is the ingenuity to develope and employ alternatives to their one and only product, oil.By the way; Nikta Kruschev was the Soviet leader who stood at a podium in New York City (the united nations) and declared that the United States would fall from within.SA

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from South of Mason Dixon Line wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

Some time back you guys were so worried about Hillary taking your guns away. You better hope she wins. If this Black dude who is l/2 Muslim and l/4 this and l/4 that wins ;your guns will be gone. Best I recall its Muslims we fighting now in Iraq, or am I wrong? This dude does not have any American blood in him, he was only born here. Better think about who you vote for come election time next year. He can get all the $$$$ he needs to win from the Rich Cartels in the oil countries. If I recall my History correct, was Stalin of Moscow who stated when he was in power, that a 3rd world country would take over the USA and never fire a shot. Sounds as if he knew what was coming, I;m afraid he may be correct. As we do not want Muslim running our good old US of A, or do we?

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

A tried and proven statement, you get what you pay for. Buy cheapo and thats what you will have. But, I also know many hunters cannot afforda high $ firearm and thoe combo deals of near 400.00 will put them in the woods. They available in most calibers needed for NA.Walnut/Matte meatl to me is by far better, but a time comes when the syn/blue bbl is needed. I try to protect my firearms too much, ther wer times when I needed to crawl over rocks, creeks, etc. killed my soul to drag my nice looking Remingtons thru that mess, but did my job, got my animal and behold, it did cleanup wit a few minor dents. I do plan a Syn/SS or Matt for next trip west, as can be some awful weather out there, 70 today and -0 tomorrow and snow/sleet or rain. So a rough house firearm does have its place, provding its 30-06.

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from Tom in Kentucky wrote 6 years 21 weeks ago

Has anyone read or heard of the big fuss over a Chuck Hawks article on the internet that picked on Tikka T3 rifles specifically as the poster boy for good rifles that could be great but that way too many cost-saving corners are being cut to save money? He picks on the tri-sectioned checkering as being too easy because the area is so small that it's hard to screw-up the checkering lines, and the floating barrel being a cheaper way out, etc, etc. I know Dave raved about the T3 lite 2 years ago. What do you think now? I have a T3 hunter and love it-am I too dumb to notice the inferior manufacturing processes be "foisted" on Me?? Comments, please!.Thanks

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 21 weeks ago

i also am from the old school of Walnut and blue steel. I've yet had one to rust/break in my 54 yrs of hunting. After each days hunt I wipe them down with Rem oil and let dry. I also wipe after each handling. I just like my hunting tools to look great as thats part of the hunt for me. Like today,My Son and I have hunted together for 42 years ( yep I;m 72) each of us uses a Rem firearm, tday he used a 700 7 mm and I used a 700 CDL in 06, what a thril for us to both kill a deer on same day wihin l/2 hr apart. I hunt the Rockies each year and use Walnut/matt bbl Remingtons, at end of day, I wipe down and put back in the vehicle as the moisture in a tent or Motel will cause a fiearm to rust. I always store my working gun in a shipping (by air) case at night.I also prefer a 24" bbl to a 22". Today I killed my nice Buck at 260 yds one shot. I doubt my 22" bbls would do as well. I also have decided, as much as I hate their looks,that the next firearm I buy will a A Black Syn Stock wth Matte bbl in a 06 and add enough lead to stock to top the scales at near 9 lbs. I prefer the added wt to the butt end, as I can hold the firearm more steady with the wt on my shoulder than it being l/2 balanced with exta wt on forearm. But again, to each his own. We each have to do what works for us and the end results is all that matters. Just being in the great outdoors with any capable fiearm is enough for me at my age. Like today. My Son and I both killing a nice Deer on same day. That will be a day to last me my remaining days. Needless to say, both deer will be mounted and the brass name plates will reflect of todays good forturn.If Santa don;t bring me a Black Syn/Matte 30-06, 24"-26" bbl with Hinged floor plate for next years trip to WY, MT, CO I suppose I will buy the Remington SPS 700. Keep your firearm clean, wipe down afer each days use and shoot straight,.PS; I put a piece of electricians tape over the end of the Muzzle when hunting, keeps the crap out of the bbl, especialy rain,snow, dirt, etc. Good Hunting, enjoy each outing, as could be your last. Just another old Gun Nut from down South.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 21 weeks ago

ClayDid a little digging on sub-caliber conversions / variations on .30 Carbines; Iver Johnson did come late to that party and for a very short time put out the Carbine in 5.7MM Spitfire, a .224 caliber which reportedly fit between the .22 Hornet and the .222 Remington. Carbines were also put built or converted to a variety of other .22 centerfires including the .218 Bee. One closer to your .25 idea was the 'Ferret' in .256 Win Mag.Maybe the Kahr people will expand on the theme?SA

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from Larry Rayburn wrote 6 years 21 weeks ago

Damn, Is the whole gun world getting to be a bunch of lazy bastards? If you are afraid of rust, or a gun misfiring on you, you obviously Don,t own a Remington. Go buy yourself a Remington Rifle, a good cleaning kit, and some Remington gun oil and wipes. For Gods sake, I live in North Dakota, I've hunted in 80 degrees above 0, and 20 degrees below o. I've hunted in the rain, snow, fog, and duststorms. Since I've been using remington oil, I have yet to have a fire arm rust on me. There is no substitute for good gun cleaning/maintenance. But Remington products are a good start. If you are afraid to get your firearm wet because you may have to clean it, Pack your shit up, put it away, and set down and watch the movie Beaches, cause your turning into a whiny bitch any ways! Tired of the bull, L. Rayburn

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from Shaky wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Yes ,Clay, and that Noz. works wonders on deer if you are careful to place your shots. In the old days, though, I simply stuck with the 55gr Sie. because it hit where I held. I've tried many bullets since, and now make almost all of my own. I use the old RCBS bullet dies, and these bullets are surprisingly accurate. They weigh 58gr. and are hp.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Shakyyoy know Nosler makes a 60 grain partition bullet in 224 diam

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from Shaky wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Chev, Clay: In 1960 I purchased my first 22/250. It was blessed with a 27"barrel tapered from 1 1/8'at the action to 1'at the muzzle,Bliss Titus 1in14,on a VZ24 Mouser action, topped with a Lyman 18xtarget scope (I think), it weighed 18 1/2#,it needed wheels on it but it didn't have them.I shot it quite well, but after 6mo.took it to a gunsmith and had it lightened up a bit. Well it had such a large gap between barrel and stock, I ordered a stock blank and spent the winter building a new stock, the most rewarding winter I've spent. The barrel ended up 25"long and .603 at the muzzle and weighing 9.25lb. I shot the same load with the same results for 4yrs.but had the reciever drilled and tapped for Weaver mounts and put a Leupold 3-9 scope on it. I had no idea how many times it had been shot, because it was old when I bought it, so when it started scattering bullets,I had it re-barreled with a Douglas premium 24" .600 barrel. I used Win. 120 primers in those .250 Sav. cases, but Rem. primers in the .308, so I desided to keep track of how long the barrel would last by counting the primers I shot. I bought 22thousand,and an odd 100 once or twice, before I noticed any loss of accuracy. My load was 35gr.4064 with the 55gr.Sie.bullet, some of the cases I used were re-formed '06,so that load was hot enough, and very accurate.So if you want to know how long a hi vel barrel will last, there is your answer. I havent shot out 3 25-06s,but I have shot out 3 in 22/250.To explain, the .308 above, I used for big game,it was my only other rifle,at the time.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Putting some effort into keeping it "fine" is a small price to pay in my opinion and when those inevitable scratches and dents show up on a "working gun" it just makes it all the more dear! Sort of like my wife's beautiful stretch marks!Posted by: Pastor Carney | November 13, 2007 at 07:39 PMPastor, my wife would have a fit if I discussed her "anything" on a website for hunting and guns.May the lord have mercy on your soul sir (cause I bet your wife won't).

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from Bernie Kuntz wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Ninety percent of big game hunting in the U.S. can be done very nicely with a conventional blued rifle with walnut stock. However, when you hunt in B.C., the Yukon and Alaska the synthetic stocks and stainless barrels are good to have. I own only one rifle, of more than a dozen total, that has a synthetic stock. That is a .338 Win. Mag. that started out as a Sako Finnbear with a walnut stock that I had inletted twice, and it still changed impact. I finally threw away everything but the action, had a Lilja barrel installed on the Sako action, plus an MPI synthetic stock from Portland, OR, and a 1-3/4X-5X Burris scope. That rifle, in earlier and present forms, has taken seven or eight elk, three Alaskan brown bears, an Alaska-Yukon moose, several mule deer bucks, and three barren ground caribou bulls. When I last hunted Stone sheep in the Pelly Mountains of the Yukon in 2002 I took the .338 and my .270 Sako into base camp. The sun was shining, so I left the .338 there and took the .270 with me on the ten-mile ride to spike camp. Half way there it starting raining, and it rained every day for a week. I shot a ram with the .270 after a week of hunting but wished I had packed the .338 with the synthetic stock and stainless barrel. But, again, for the vast majority of big game hunting in the Rocky Mountain west, a good bolt-action rifle with walnut stock will do just fine.

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from Mike Strehlow wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Two for!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

45 Win Mag be perfect!

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph, Thank you sir! Looks better than I had heard! Wife is not gonna be happy 'bout this one LOL!Clay, if memory serves, Iver Johnson came out with a necked down round for the carbine in the late 1970's -- 5.77MM perhaps? Can't find it in my references right off hand. Ironically many knowledgable men and women have opined that the carbine would have better and longer served with a larger caliber round. Think .44 Auto mag or .45 Win Mag! Actually the opinions of that era were more for the .35 or .40 caliber rounds. Especially when many a GI met his Japanese counterpart, perforated with .30C rounds, at bayonette distances; I bet that AutoMag round would have had lots of adherents about then!SA

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from Trae B. wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I have a 1942 303. British it was my grampa's It hasent been shot in years but I took it out last night and cleaned it up real good so I could shoot a few rounds this weekend and I was wondering how it lived through a war and two generations and still be perfect.I also wondered how the hell people shot that thing more than about five times a day.dang that thing kicks!

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from dickgun wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I have seen a company called Sentry Solutions advertised and review their web site as well as some written material. There products are for gun maintenance. They tout law enforcement and the military as heavy enthusiastic users. I have not bought or used their products but their claims are high. Any one have any experience and/or reports on their products?

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from Pastor Carney wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I'm with Bubba and Old School and the many others who are hooked on wood and bluing. Nothing really wrong with the other stuff but I believe that "fine" and "functional" should intertwine.Putting some effort into keeping it "fine" is a small price to pay in my opinion and when those inevitable scratches and dents show up on a "working gun" it just makes it all the more dear! Sort of like my wife's beautiful stretch marks!

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from Old School wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I still like wood and blue and it appears as if there are plenty of others that still respect a bit of proper gun maintenance if you look at all the sales S&W is making with those new old revolvers. I don't want to be around anyone that runs over their firearms with their truck either.

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I love nicely figured wood and lustrous blued metal, but I know that a few days of rain can ruin both. One of these days I want to have a rifle that can survive a week of unrelenting rain without having to be disassembled, dried, oiled and reassembled. I like the idea of the Remington Tri-Nyte coating. What I really want is a rifle with a black or "blue" coating that doesn't shine like stainless steel. Contrary to what Dave says, I've heard that Kevlar stocks can absorb some moisture. Probably not that much, though. I'd like to try one of those Serengeti laminated stocks, but $1,000 a pop means I'm going to have to wait a little while. You know what nobody talks about? No one talks about what would happen to a synthetic stock if you shot the hell out of the rifle, rapid-fire. Would the stock melt? Smoke? Catch on fire? Be ruined? Also, if I recall correctly, the earliest stainless steel firearms used a stainless alloy that was tougher and more rust-resistant than the present varieties. I heard the manufacturers "softened" the current alloys so that they would be easier to machine. I remember when the S&W "Chief's Special" came out in stainless, you could bury it in your yard and then retrieve it after a couple of months with no rusting of metal surfaces. Bet you can't do that with the current alloys! My guess is that current chrome molybdenum steel is harder than current stainless steel, just not as rust resistant. We also know that chrome moly doesn't expand so much when heated as stainless does. There's undoubtedly ways to make better rifles than we have today. I'm waiting for barrels that will last 15,000 or 20,000 rounds in the hottest calibers. Yes, the classic firearms will never lose their appeal for me, but there are times when I want an "indestructable" rifle, because you hate yourself when you ruin a classic rifle on a hard hunt!

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from Mike Reeder wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Put me in with the wood and blued crowd. I readily concede neither is as tough as synthetic and stainless steel, but since I spend more time gazing at my guns than firing at game I opt for aesthetics. Besides, cleaning them up gives me a chance to bask in the aroma of Hoppe's #9. On the other hand, my son is hard as hell on rifles, and the Rem. 700 7mm-08 I gave him for his college graduation is matte black synthetic and stainless. As for barrel length, I own no magnum rifles, and all but one wear 22-inch barrels. The slight loss in velocity is more than made up for by ease of handling, especially in tight places. The one exception is a little Ruger carbine .243 with an 18-inch barrel. Loud but handy.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I have a Remington 700 BDL 22-250 34 years old, rebarreled 3 times and still kicking!

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from Zermoid wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

OK this won't "Look Nice" to some but my favorite shotgun is a Savage 57 (I think but could be wrong on the number) that I Painted Flat Black! De-greased it with Acetone, used Grey Auto primer, then Flat Black Enamel, only exposed steel is the mag tube the slide has to ride on, the action bar, and the bolt. Figured not only would the paint on these parts get scraped off but would slow and gum up the action. But basically the gun is moisture proof, and all it needs is the tube oiled and the action wiped and oiled occasionally. Sure I still have to clean and oil the bore but I can come in from rain or snow and sit the gun next to the radiator to warm and dry and not see a speck of rust.It worked for the Lee-Enfield.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

What’s funny provided, is after the fact that the gun didn’t blow up is when someone with a Remington Semi Auto 30-06 takes one of my bolt gun loads without asking and fires one. Upon firing, it kicks the crap out of them (not expecting that much kick over factory), ejects the empty casing into the next county and when they do find the empty casing they discover that the ejector ripped through the rim. Can you say, BLUE PILL TESTED!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

SilverArrowOn those M1 carbines, be nice if the necked the cartridge down to 25 cal!

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from Scott wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Maintenance, maintenance, maintenance, etc., etc. etc....This is the only way to preserve anything, including guns. Whether blued or stainless, parkerized or some other coating, ya still gotta clean it or it will fail you at the worst possible moment...I believe failure happens just for spite at that point. Instant Karma's gonna get ya, if you don't clean it up.Great thread.

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from Jackson Landers wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Greg,Amen on the 870 express! I have one in 20 gauge. The price was right but it has shown a greater willingness to rust than any other firearm I've ever owned. Truly a fair-weather shotgun.

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from JA Demko wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

The much beloved Savage Model 99 was neither easy to strp nor repair. I have 2 and it isn't a good gun for a neo to pull apart just to see how it works.

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from Mike Strehlow wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Another factor in indestructibility is ease of servicing and maintenance. A real tough gun is one that is not only tough to begin with, but also one that, when it does break, you can fix fast. Here's where military rifles shine. You can field strip a Mauser or Enfield bolt in a few seconds (Model 70 Winchester, too) without tools. With a model 700 Rem. bolt you need a tool to do it right. Here's where ARs have it all over BARs, model 94 Winchesters, and Rem. 7400s; you can take ARs apart in a hurry, replace parts easily, rinse out mud and salt water, clean every nook and cranny, etc. For the outdoorsman I suppose the prize would go to a stainless synthetic Mauser or Model 70 bolt. I've never owned a Savage 110, so I can't say what they are like. What's the toughest, yet quickest to field strip and repair gun out there?

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from Greg wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

My 870 express, nough said!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

SA Kahr is making them and they sell for $600 to $700 bucks... I have seen one but not shot it. Punch my name for the link.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Speaking of bombproof guns; I've heard rumor that some company is producing M1 Carbines again? Anyone here able to confirm? Maybe a link or at least the name?Thanks in AdvanceSA

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

ClayHope your surgery went well and heals fast.WA Mtnhunter

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from C lay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Dave in St PeteNo Sir you’re not baiting me at all. In fact, I get these questions asked periodically so it’s nothing new. It is a question that needs to be answered especially if you’re new or advancing in the field of shooting. A 24 inch barrel is the “GOLD STANDARD” in ballistics. Pending on the cartridge, the bigger the powder capacity the longer the barrel. A 22 or 24 inch in a 30-06 is fine, but going to a 22 inch barrel you will lose about 44 fps. However, when you get into the magnums such as the 264 Win Mag and the 338 RUM, a 26 inch is ideal. Shortening the barrel from 26 to 22 inches, you will lose 83 fps. More in likely, you will not notice the lost in feet per seconds. However, the extra kick and boom you definitely will, WOW!Sir Dave, by all means, if something isn’t clear or have a question by all means please askHere are some sites I dug uphttp://www.loadammo.com/Topics/October05.htmhttp://www.f-r-i.com/vel.htmhttp://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/longrange_shooting/ideal_barrel_308_tactical_rifle.htmhttp://www.tcarms.com/firearms/mzModernInline.phphttp://www.auto-ordnance.com/ao_aom110_02.html#02This next one is a bet lengthy but worth reading. I learned some things from it.http://www.jarheadtop.com/article_handloading.html

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from Jackson Landers wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Modern hunting arms seem 'cold' and sparsely utilitarian because we are, either in years or in spirit, old farts. I promise you that the day will come when my grandkids will oooh and ahhh over my matte black Remington 700 with it's composite stock. By then all the actions and barrels will probably be made out of some space-age plastic and the idea of a real steel receiver will sound luxurious.That Remington Model 700 seemed wholly unlovable when I first bought it. Compared to my old Mausers and pre-64 Winchesters, it was cold, stiff and lacked personality. But nothing endears a gun to a man quite so readily as successfully taking game with it and putting food on the table. The stiff, black Remington is now a trusted friend.

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from Jimmie D wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Sorry about the multi posting, told you I was old. Times I feel like Norman, kinda lost in the woods.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I like the real wood, and blued finish on hunting rifles. My worst experience with bad weather was a 5 day western hunt with everything from high wind stormes,hail,snow, and rain..what a mess! At the end of each day, I checked point of impact and gave my gun a quick wipe down then allowed it to fully warm to room temp(in our heated tent)then gave it a good cleaning with oil including the barrel. No surface rust that I can recall on any of the metal, and the stock was sealed with epoxy resins for more durablity.I worry more about stock damage during bad weather then the metal.

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from Jimmie D wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Hey Dave, just wanted to wade in and give my thoughts. I am like most of the old geezer generation, I like good looking wood. The plastic stocks are great and have their place but nothing feels as good as nice grained wood. I have 2 Remington LTR's and I ordered 2 Accurate Innovation stocks to slip these guys in. Accurate Innovation stocks have an aluminum bedding block and a Titanium pin through the wrist of the stock to help reinforce the weak part. I didn't get the "Cadillac" stock I really wanted, old budget just wasn't there for that part however I will say they look great and do the same thing as the fiberglass and maybe just a little better. Na, this is not a plug for Accurate Innovation stocks , I just want to let you guys know what I use and think it is a good replacement. By the way, I just finished reading an article in a magazine I "used to subscribe" too about a new line of Kimber Rifles and a matching 45 ACP's. I will just say the name of the publication is has ST for a name. The author was Pimping for Kimber and it is so obvious. It really P**ed me off. As you thread through the "bark-bark, woof-woof stuff, you can see the rifle is not a shooter ( but it is a real controlled round feed), however the author boldly stepped in and said he found a place where the barrel rubbed the stock and that was the problem with the 1 to 1-1/2 inch groups. Sooo, he had a buddy that had rifle number 2 and used his data to show the Kimber would shoot sub 1/2 inch groups. The way I see it, Kimber QC blew it shipping out a bad gun to be evaluated by a national publication gun magazine. He pimped when he listed the low group data in a table and didn't list his data the same way. I see it like this, 2 rifles, 2 groups average .95 inches anyway you look at it. Good by ST, Bet Chuck Hawks is grinning, no Pimping BS from Hawks or Petzal ( yea, I have been a little hard on you every now and then but you know your stuff about guns). F&S will stay around and my membership with Hawks will be renewed every year.Jimmie D

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from Mike Diehl wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

"I’ve seen two stocks break in the field, and a third break inside its hard case (without a mark on the case; how the airline managed that one I will never know)."Combination of moisture expansion and weak wood. Remember. When you put that shotgun on an airplane, it travels in an unheated cargo hold at an altitude where temperatures drop to 80 below.

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from Jimmie D wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Hey Dave, just wanted to wade in and give my thoughts. I am like most of the old geezer generation, I like good looking wood. The plastic stocks are great and have their place but nothing feels as good as nice grained wood. I have 2 Remington LTR's and I ordered 2 Accurate Innovation stocks to slip these guys in. Accurate Innovation stocks have an aluminum bedding block and a Titanium pin through the wrist of the stock to help reinforce the weak part. I didn't get the "Cadillac" stock I really wanted, old budget just wasn't there for that part however I will say they look great and do the same thing as the fiberglass and maybe just a little better. Na, this is not a plug for Accurate Innovation stocks , I just want to let you guys know what I use and think it is a good replacement. By the way, I just finished reading an article in a magazine I "used to subscribe" too about a new line of Kimber Rifles and a matching 45 ACP's. I will just say the name of the publication is has ST for a name. The author was Pimping for Kimber and it is so obvious. It really P**ed me off. As you thread through the "bark-bark, woof-woof stuff, you can see the rifle is not a shooter ( but it is a real controlled round feed), however the author boldly stepped in and said he found a place where the barrel rubbed the stock and that was the problem with the 1 to 1-1/2 inch groups. Sooo, he had a buddy that had rifle number 2 and used his data to show the Kimber would shoot sub 1/2 inch groups. The way I see it, Kimber QC blew it shipping out a bad gun to be evaluated by a national publication gun magazine. He pimped when he listed the low group data in a table and didn't list his data the same way. I see it like this, 2 rifles, 2 groups average .95 inches anyway you look at it. Good by ST, Bet Chuck Hawks is grinning, no Pimping BS from Hawks or Petzal ( yea, I have been a little hard on you every now and then but you know your stuff about guns). F&S will stay around and my membership with Hawks will be renewed every year.Jimmie D

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from Jimmie D wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Hey Dave, just wanted to wade in and give my thoughts. I am like most of the old geezer generation, I like good looking wood. The plastic stocks are great and have their place but nothing feels as good as nice grained wood. I have 2 Remington LTR's and I ordered 2 Accurate Innovation stocks to slip these guys in. Accurate Innovation stocks have an aluminum bedding block and a Titanium pin through the wrist of the stock to help reinforce the weak part. I didn't get the "Cadillac" stock I really wanted, old budget just wasn't there for that part however I will say they look great and do the same thing as the fiberglass and maybe just a little better. Na, this is not a plug for Accurate Innovation stocks , I just want to let you guys know what I use and think it is a good replacement. By the way, I just finished reading an article in a magazine I "used to subscribe" too about a new line of Kimber Rifles and a matching 45 ACP's. I will just say the name of the publication is has ST for a name. The author was Pimping for Kimber and it is so obvious. It really P**ed me off. As you thread through the "bark-bark, woof-woof stuff, you can see the rifle is not a shooter ( but it is a real controlled round feed), however the author boldly stepped in and said he found a place where the barrel rubbed the stock and that was the problem with the 1 to 1-1/2 inch groups. Sooo, he had a buddy that had rifle number 2 and used his data to show the Kimber would shoot sub 1/2 inch groups. The way I see it, Kimber QC blew it shipping out a bad gun to be evaluated by a national publication gun magazine. He pimped when he listed the low group data in a table and didn't list his data the same way. I see it like this, 2 rifles, 2 groups average .95 inches anyway you look at it. Good by ST, Bet Chuck Hawks is grinning, no Pimping BS from Hawks or Petzal ( yea, I have been a little hard on you every now and then but you know your stuff about guns). F&S will stay around and my membership with Hawks will be renewed every year.Jimmie D

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from JA Demko wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

RE: WWII Weapons StoppagesYes, there were issues. In the South Pacific and North African campaigns sand was noted as causing stoppages in the Garand, BAR, and Thompson if proper PM procedures were not followed.In WWII and Korea (which was fought with WWII-era weapons) stoppages due to congealed lubricant were noted under very cold conditions. Once again, proper PM procedures helped mitigate the problem.On at least one occasion in WWII, .30-06 ammo shipped to the South Pacific was incorrectly loaded with artillery black powder. The gas operated Garand and BAR were hopelessly fouled when using this ammo. The manually operated Springfield and recoil operated Browning machinegun (as well as the much less common Johnson rifle and lmg)could use this misloaded ammo.So, yes, stoppages did happen.

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from Brian wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Dave mentioned synthetic stocks not soaking up moisture and this is true of fiberglass and kevlar if the outer protective layer is not breached. Kevlar is an "aramid fiber" and all aramids have strong hydroscopic properties. This means that they attract water, not just soak up water, but will pull it out of the atmosphere. Think of the way sugar or salt clumps on a humid day. Over time this can degrade the resin that holds the stock together. Minor scratches can lead to major failures later.

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from Richard A. wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I was fortunate enough to be brought up on wooden stocks and pre-64 Winchester Model 70s when I did my big game hunting in the 70's and 80's and I wasn't paying the bills. Today when I am paying $700 to $1000/day for a guided hunt I think I want the most indestructable rifle I can get. In the field, rifles are tools and function comes before beauty. I suggest you keep your "pretty" rifles on the rifle range.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

My Wby Mk V .30-06 sports a 24 inch barrel and usually clocks ammo manufacturer's spec velocity and in most cases usually a few fps faster. I recently read that Krieger Criterion barrels on Weatherby rifles are drilled and rifled at minimum diameter rather than at the middle range of SAAMI spec for caliber.Maybe that explains why that rifle fouled quickly when brand new and still produces top velocities.

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from David wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I prefer wood and Blue Barrels or Wood and Stainless Barrels.

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from Michael wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Today, my deer hunting is less than 5 miles from home. A Lipsey's exclusive Ruger no. 1 25-06 with 24" lightweight barrel, Alex Henry forend, and Circassion walnut stock is my rifle of choice. If you can't reach out and touch em' with a 25-06 they are too far. I like admiring the wood and lines of this rifle which with scope weighs 71/2 lbs. In my younger days when I traveled miles to make hunting trips, a 2nd rifle always went as backup. Same for binoculars.

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from Dave in St Pete wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Clay,So are you saying 24 inches is the best or would 25 or 26 even be better?I assume that at some given point you will reach maximum efficiency for a given caliber. Is 22 that much worse than 24? I see that in the Federal Ammo info they use a 24 inch barrel on 30-06 to record their ammo performance.Serious questions here, Clay not 'baiting' you.Also as I tend to use the ballistics as recorded for caliber/ammo when sighting in my rifles, how much should I worry about having 22 inches when the test info is from 24. How much extra drop, etc?Thanks.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I forgot about those Ruger stocks Bubba... come to think of it they are good looking to me too. Luckily I have a Knight LK-93 which is the Ruger's twin sister and we've already spent some time alone in the woods this year!I have stayed away from the stainless steel (which really isn't anyway) just because the things are so damn shiny. You just can't tell me that if I can see it in the woods sticking out like a sore thumb from 100 yards or more that the deer can't see it. It may be true but I still don't believe it.Last time I went out west was 2003 and when I got back somehow there was a crack about 3-4 inches long running along the bottom of my Rem 700 walnut stock. It is now in a camouflage stock and I have mixed emotions about this.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Dave in St PeteA blast from the past from David Petzal!Like Weatherby, Remington equips their .338 RUM rifles with 26-inch barrels in order to get every last foot per second from those huge charges of slow-burning powder. However, I will always trade off a few feet per second for a handier rifle, and I had my .338 RUM barrel cut back to 231/2 inches. Theoretically, this should have cost me lots of muzzle velocity, but in reality I lost only 38 fps and accuracy increased markedly.Clay says, reduced barrel length resulting to accuracy increased markedly not related to barrel length. It was the byproduct of recrowning and or changing the barrel whip (tuning) of the barrel.http://www.fieldandstream.com/fieldstream/shooting/rifles/article/0,13199,1174248,00.html

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Dave in St Pete22 inches you could get everything out of it and that a longer barrel would not help?Excellent question Sir that I will answer for you.Glad you brought up the question/info!I’ve read that if you deflate your tires, this will make your 4x4 sink more in the sandMy Chronograph says that’s wrong, AKA: BS! So who is right? What you read in some rag trying to stay afloat to make money on something that sounds good or my Chronograph and everyone else in the shooting community? If 22 inches was the truth, it would have been the gold standard before time.By the way, if you take a 30-06 with a 150 grain bullet military load, about 1.5 inches, the pressure will peak at 52,000 psi chamber pressure then at 24 inches the pressure at the muzzle will be 12,000 psi.I’m a big fan of Army Colonel Hatcher!Need to read Col. Hatchers notebook!!Outstanding reading!!! You will find information that was discovered before the modern day Gee Whiz Goober Smootchers have discovered. This dovetails when Al Gore said he discovered the internet and Love Canal!

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from Dave in St Pete wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Clay,My Savage 30-06 came with a 22 inch barrel. I remember reading somewhere that with 22 inches you could get everything out of it and that a longer barrel would not help.

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from Dan wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Hey I just got rid of that skeletonized stock on my ruger .243 stainless in favor of a brown laminated one, and I've never been so happy with it. It was my first bolt gun and I guess my tastes changed. If you ask me, brown laminate is a good compromise between beutiful natural wood and butt ugly black synthetics. It'll still allow that gun to do rainy day duty.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

When Bill Ruger came out with the Ruger #3 in 45-70, He tried to blow one up by overloading it. The load was so hot; it melted the case in the chamber and busted the stock in three places. To me, this is what you would call Indestructible rifle at its finest.By the way, last Saturday my Wife slammed a big doe with my 22-250. Dropped in her tracks like a ton of rocks. We waited 15 minutes and my friend bagged a nice 5 pointer that swooped in for the downed doe to get some instead the buck got a 30-06 Hornady 150 grain SST loaded with 53 grains of IMR 4064 @ 3080fps out of a 22 inch barrel. Ya-Ya I know, I gave David hell over loping off the barrel of his 338 RUM!

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from Dennis Crabtrey II wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

On the Ruger "Paddle Stocks" as I've heard them called. They're absolutely BRUTAL in recoil transfer. They have 2 steel plates in them 1 under the recoil pad and one running length wise. Shooting one in 30-06 is no fun at all.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Dr. RalphI've even considered synthetic/stainless! (Let's call it S/S!)When I saw the first one's, I was terribly underwhelmed! Then Ruger came out with the (?) I suppose you might call it semi-skeletonized stock. I suddenly fell deeply in love with S/S. Problem was, at that period, I couldn't afford one. Now that I can afford one, they (Ruger) no longer offers the "semi-skeletonized" stock. Guess I better get busy and hit some gun shows before HRC hits the WH!I think the S/S rifles are a very intelligent answer to an age old delimma. Short of using one to drive tent stakes, they are very durable!Sitting in a gun rack? Give me blued steel and wood!Bubba

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from Dave in St Pete wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph,Wood and blue may be dying relics but we far right whack jobs are the ones doing killing with our love of EBRs. So, don't worry (for either actually).

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I like pretty guns... nothing like walnut but more and more of my rifles are now black. It took some getting used to but everything around me is changing. There's some gang banger on the radio cussing me out and they call it music? Whatever... I suppose this is an improvement but for some strange reason the things I like are now considered old fashioned, out of date, and hard to find. Like that guy on the Fred Thompson debate said we're a bunch of far right whack job dying relics.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I'd like to have a Remington slug gun with the Trinyte coating, permanently attached barrel, reworked trigger and drilled and tapped receiver.Kind of what the old Ithaca slug guns were like (when you could still buy them). A real slug gun.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Roseanne could sing the national anthem again and burst their eardrums.That would give you plenty of time to run like hell.

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from Steve C wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I require no nimbleness from Roseanne. She’s just there to serve as the large and immoveable object to stand in front of me to deflect the blows while I run screaming from the bar.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I'm not so sure Roseanne is nimble enough to be of that much use in a brawl. Ms. Diaz could certainly distract the opponent(s) long enough to place a couple of well aimed hits!

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Regardless of your choice of stock material and metal finish it pays to adhere to the following in the Rockies: Never leave your rifle on your horse when you are not in the saddle (if not tied with a short rope the sucker WILL decide to roll on the rifle and saddle), always use a chap leather lined leather scabbard or at least one that is well used and soft, never one of those so called wool lined cloth types which soak up horse sweat or rain and hold it, and always leave your rifle outside that warm tent or cabin at the end of the day (use your .44 or pepper sprayer to ward off grizzlies). It also doesn't hurt to take a can of Rem Oil or similiar substitute along on the trip. Remember airlines don't like aerosols.I have and still use rifles of all types of construction. It took me almost twenty years to accept a synthetic stocked stainless version. Once I got over the fact that they are not as pretty as walnut and blue I learned to love them for what they offer in return.This reconsidertion of thought all started in the mid-eighties when I watched a 1250 pound horse roll on a Weatherby .300 Fibermark. The next day the owner shot a fine mule deer at about 200 yards with one well placed bullet. Sooo I started rethinking the situation.

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I promised myself years ago that I’d always stick to blued steel and walnut. But, when slogging through Virginia swamps for whitetails, I have to admit admiring a companion’s scoped Model 870 slug gun in black synthetic stock and parkerized finish.Cameron Diaz may look good on your arm but Roseanne Barr is more useful in a bar fight.

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from Bob Athay wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Dave--I think the key is to remember that all these wonderful, high-tech coatings still don't remove the need for routine maintainence. They can certainly reduce the frequency and effort involved. The question is how much, and at what cost? The outside of your rifle barrel may be impervious to the elements, but what about the bore, chamber, the locking lugs of the bolt and the recesses that engage the lugs? Not to mention, of course, the firing pin, springs, and the inner workings of the trigger, sear, safety, etc.?I heard years ago that nothing is sailor-proof, but a rock comes pretty close. Same thing is true of hunters and their equipment.Bob Athay

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Seriously:WWII ranged from oppressive humidity in the swamps of Guadalcanal to the sub-zero conditions of the Battle of the Bulge.Dave talked about several recent advancements that make guns more reliable. Was weapons failure major problem in WWII?

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

BubbaI've seen the movie and its on my list of movies to own on DVD. One of Mel Gibson's best. All I can say is yuck! To have to be in that situation.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

YooperJackWith much trepidation!Remember the statement by "SGT/MAJ Plumley" (Sam Elliot)in "We Were Soldiers"?Moore (Mel Gibson) told him he probably needed to get an M-16. Plumley replies, "If that time comes, there'll be plenty of 'em layin' around!"Bubba

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

C_SI agree. If I'm in a war zone, I don't want, "bang, click.... OH, SH--!"If I'm in a blind? Give me wood and bluing! If for some reason, it goes "click", instead of "bang"! No big deal!Kudo's to you for your service and the defense of "our" country!My hat is off to you!Bubba

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

How in the hell did both our troops and the Japanese ever fight in such God-Forsaken places like the South Pacific. Were rifles used mostly as clubs and spears? Never haved hunted far from home, or took a rifle on an airplane. Always wanted to but now you've got me scared.

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from Concerned_Soldier wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

The Harder, more indestructible, rust proof, the better. I have seen alot of soldiers give a weapon a beating and a beating of a cleaning, if you know what I mean.The beauty is in the TOUGHNESS!! Its a secure feeling when I know my weapon will take all the elements. I can handle the fact that it don't have a high polished piece of wood.Most of you men know, that a good ole' truck is way prettier than any sprots car!! Yeah it may look fast, but in bad weather and a bumpy road, I want a TRUCK!!I want something that can take a beating!!! NOW THAT IS PURTTY!!Great Post Dave, keep up the good work.V/RC_S

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I personally opt for wooden stock, blued metal. I never let weather impede my hunting!To me, sitting around, disassembling, drying, oiling as necessary, and warm linseed oil are an added dimension to the hunt! I have one synthetic stock on a stainless rifle. It still gets the same treatment after a damp (wet?!) day out!Guess I'm just kinda old fashioned about firearms.Wood over synthetic.Blued over stainless or coated.Loving care before and after the hunt not two weeks later.No such thing as indestructible! Some folks could destroy an anvil with a feather!Bubba

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from Blue Ox wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Didn't Browning use titanium parts in one of their rifles? I think it was the reciever but i'm not sure. Anyone own one of these? How is it holding up?

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from tippy98c wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

boys,boys,boys......you gotta understand that a Hindu that wont salute the American or a WOMAN whos more manly than chuck norris will never get into office... and if they do.......welllll......theres a reason we own guns.....right?-Tippy98c

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from tippy98c wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

boys,boys,boys......you gotta understand that a Hindu that wont salute the American or a WOMAN whos more manly than chuck norris will never get into office... and if they do.......welllll......theres a reason we own guns.....right?-Tippy98c

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from tippy98c wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

boys,boys,boys......you gotta understand that a Hindu that wont salute the American or a WOMAN whos more manly than chuck norris will never get into office... and if they do.......welllll......theres a reason we own guns.....right?-Tippy98c

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from Western Realism wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

South of Mason Dixon Line, you are a bigot. It scares us all that you own a gun too. Have you even left your state? The world is bigger than your neighborhood.

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from South of Mason Dixon Line wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

Don;t believe the Black Dude's mother was white, maybe fron Kansas but not a White girl. Like I said, you guys worring about Hillary and your guns, better forget that and worry about the Dude running this country. Look what the Mexican Pres has done to us. O well Race and relegion will enter the race before its over, count on it.This dude has lots of $$ and raising more daily. Just hope he gets beaten early so others, such as Hillary and Edwards can get down to bare facts and not maybe's. But after 7 years of BUSHIE, about anyone would be an improvement. How he's made it 7 yrs without a attempt on his life is beyond me. Man would he make a good target pratice poster boy.

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from Gman wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

I don't think we'll be dukin' it out on this one, Ralph. It's exhausting work, and I have too much paying work on my desk to spend too much time hereBut I am a Yankee; we had nuthin' to do with the first Alamo. My first wife's father was Mexican, though. And her Mom was French-Canadian. How do you feel about the Deerfield massacre of 1704?

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

Well my link was a really nice picture of the Alamo but let's try again...

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

Man, do I love it.... yet another Gman / Alamo gunfight and I'm a Tennessean who is ready to defend the Alamo once again. History repeats itselfffff..... repeats itselfffff.....

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from Gman wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

Funny you should mention the adherence to the deity and prophet, Alamo.I have tried to correct our local editorial page writers who are constantly referring to the "fight against Islamofascism."By definition, the jihadists are theocratic nihilists and can not be fascists because the deity and prophet supersede the state. Now, a guy who believes it is necessary to wiretap my phone or computer without a warrant to satisfy his idea of the security of the state shows more fascistic leanings.I don't really care about the religion thing anymore. Before JFK was elected, the Know Nothings feared he would be subservient to the "Pope of Rome." I would rather an agnostic who was running be honest than pander to the special interests who demand that a candidate be a church-going Bible-reading type.

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from Alamo wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

Gman,You're right about Obama's religion not being an issue, he is a practicing Christian. For that matter an athiest or agnostic is fine with me.I do take exception with your indifference to a practicing Muslim holding the executive office. Islamic scripture is totally antithetical to democratic government. The Quran continuously refers to the adherents obligation to the deity and the prophet to the exclusion of the state.Christian theology notably advises one to "render unto Ceasar,,," effectively seperating religion and affairs of the state. The Hebrew tradition is also notably secularist when politics are involved.Unfotunately Islam makes no such distinctions, and a devout adherent is expected to be loyal to Allah and his prophet above all else.

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from Gman wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

Hey South of Mason Dixon Line:The "black dude's" mom was a white girl from Kansas. And he is a member of the United Church of Christ.There's a lot of confusion over separation of church and state in the Constitution, I know. But nowhere in there does it say that just because somebody is Muslim they would be a bad president. As Americans, we are supposed to be secure enough and brave enough to let a qualified person of any race or religion run for and attain the office if elected by the people.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

Wait a minute, did I say something nice about Hitlery? DELETE... DELETE... DELETE...

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

They were right... Mexico is sucking money out of the U.S. faster than OPEC. Illegal drugs, medical expenses, and all that tax free cash sent home. At least Hillary came out against giving illegal aliens driver's licenses in NY... not that it did any good.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

South of MDLI sure hope this race doesn't get to be a religious crusade! What we need to win over OPEC is the ingenuity to develope and employ alternatives to their one and only product, oil.By the way; Nikta Kruschev was the Soviet leader who stood at a podium in New York City (the united nations) and declared that the United States would fall from within.SA

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from South of Mason Dixon Line wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

Some time back you guys were so worried about Hillary taking your guns away. You better hope she wins. If this Black dude who is l/2 Muslim and l/4 this and l/4 that wins ;your guns will be gone. Best I recall its Muslims we fighting now in Iraq, or am I wrong? This dude does not have any American blood in him, he was only born here. Better think about who you vote for come election time next year. He can get all the $$$$ he needs to win from the Rich Cartels in the oil countries. If I recall my History correct, was Stalin of Moscow who stated when he was in power, that a 3rd world country would take over the USA and never fire a shot. Sounds as if he knew what was coming, I;m afraid he may be correct. As we do not want Muslim running our good old US of A, or do we?

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 20 weeks ago

A tried and proven statement, you get what you pay for. Buy cheapo and thats what you will have. But, I also know many hunters cannot afforda high $ firearm and thoe combo deals of near 400.00 will put them in the woods. They available in most calibers needed for NA.Walnut/Matte meatl to me is by far better, but a time comes when the syn/blue bbl is needed. I try to protect my firearms too much, ther wer times when I needed to crawl over rocks, creeks, etc. killed my soul to drag my nice looking Remingtons thru that mess, but did my job, got my animal and behold, it did cleanup wit a few minor dents. I do plan a Syn/SS or Matt for next trip west, as can be some awful weather out there, 70 today and -0 tomorrow and snow/sleet or rain. So a rough house firearm does have its place, provding its 30-06.

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from Tom in Kentucky wrote 6 years 21 weeks ago

Has anyone read or heard of the big fuss over a Chuck Hawks article on the internet that picked on Tikka T3 rifles specifically as the poster boy for good rifles that could be great but that way too many cost-saving corners are being cut to save money? He picks on the tri-sectioned checkering as being too easy because the area is so small that it's hard to screw-up the checkering lines, and the floating barrel being a cheaper way out, etc, etc. I know Dave raved about the T3 lite 2 years ago. What do you think now? I have a T3 hunter and love it-am I too dumb to notice the inferior manufacturing processes be "foisted" on Me?? Comments, please!.Thanks

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 21 weeks ago

i also am from the old school of Walnut and blue steel. I've yet had one to rust/break in my 54 yrs of hunting. After each days hunt I wipe them down with Rem oil and let dry. I also wipe after each handling. I just like my hunting tools to look great as thats part of the hunt for me. Like today,My Son and I have hunted together for 42 years ( yep I;m 72) each of us uses a Rem firearm, tday he used a 700 7 mm and I used a 700 CDL in 06, what a thril for us to both kill a deer on same day wihin l/2 hr apart. I hunt the Rockies each year and use Walnut/matt bbl Remingtons, at end of day, I wipe down and put back in the vehicle as the moisture in a tent or Motel will cause a fiearm to rust. I always store my working gun in a shipping (by air) case at night.I also prefer a 24" bbl to a 22". Today I killed my nice Buck at 260 yds one shot. I doubt my 22" bbls would do as well. I also have decided, as much as I hate their looks,that the next firearm I buy will a A Black Syn Stock wth Matte bbl in a 06 and add enough lead to stock to top the scales at near 9 lbs. I prefer the added wt to the butt end, as I can hold the firearm more steady with the wt on my shoulder than it being l/2 balanced with exta wt on forearm. But again, to each his own. We each have to do what works for us and the end results is all that matters. Just being in the great outdoors with any capable fiearm is enough for me at my age. Like today. My Son and I both killing a nice Deer on same day. That will be a day to last me my remaining days. Needless to say, both deer will be mounted and the brass name plates will reflect of todays good forturn.If Santa don;t bring me a Black Syn/Matte 30-06, 24"-26" bbl with Hinged floor plate for next years trip to WY, MT, CO I suppose I will buy the Remington SPS 700. Keep your firearm clean, wipe down afer each days use and shoot straight,.PS; I put a piece of electricians tape over the end of the Muzzle when hunting, keeps the crap out of the bbl, especialy rain,snow, dirt, etc. Good Hunting, enjoy each outing, as could be your last. Just another old Gun Nut from down South.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 21 weeks ago

ClayDid a little digging on sub-caliber conversions / variations on .30 Carbines; Iver Johnson did come late to that party and for a very short time put out the Carbine in 5.7MM Spitfire, a .224 caliber which reportedly fit between the .22 Hornet and the .222 Remington. Carbines were also put built or converted to a variety of other .22 centerfires including the .218 Bee. One closer to your .25 idea was the 'Ferret' in .256 Win Mag.Maybe the Kahr people will expand on the theme?SA

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from Larry Rayburn wrote 6 years 21 weeks ago

Damn, Is the whole gun world getting to be a bunch of lazy bastards? If you are afraid of rust, or a gun misfiring on you, you obviously Don,t own a Remington. Go buy yourself a Remington Rifle, a good cleaning kit, and some Remington gun oil and wipes. For Gods sake, I live in North Dakota, I've hunted in 80 degrees above 0, and 20 degrees below o. I've hunted in the rain, snow, fog, and duststorms. Since I've been using remington oil, I have yet to have a fire arm rust on me. There is no substitute for good gun cleaning/maintenance. But Remington products are a good start. If you are afraid to get your firearm wet because you may have to clean it, Pack your shit up, put it away, and set down and watch the movie Beaches, cause your turning into a whiny bitch any ways! Tired of the bull, L. Rayburn

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from Shaky wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Yes ,Clay, and that Noz. works wonders on deer if you are careful to place your shots. In the old days, though, I simply stuck with the 55gr Sie. because it hit where I held. I've tried many bullets since, and now make almost all of my own. I use the old RCBS bullet dies, and these bullets are surprisingly accurate. They weigh 58gr. and are hp.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Shakyyoy know Nosler makes a 60 grain partition bullet in 224 diam

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from Shaky wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Chev, Clay: In 1960 I purchased my first 22/250. It was blessed with a 27"barrel tapered from 1 1/8'at the action to 1'at the muzzle,Bliss Titus 1in14,on a VZ24 Mouser action, topped with a Lyman 18xtarget scope (I think), it weighed 18 1/2#,it needed wheels on it but it didn't have them.I shot it quite well, but after 6mo.took it to a gunsmith and had it lightened up a bit. Well it had such a large gap between barrel and stock, I ordered a stock blank and spent the winter building a new stock, the most rewarding winter I've spent. The barrel ended up 25"long and .603 at the muzzle and weighing 9.25lb. I shot the same load with the same results for 4yrs.but had the reciever drilled and tapped for Weaver mounts and put a Leupold 3-9 scope on it. I had no idea how many times it had been shot, because it was old when I bought it, so when it started scattering bullets,I had it re-barreled with a Douglas premium 24" .600 barrel. I used Win. 120 primers in those .250 Sav. cases, but Rem. primers in the .308, so I desided to keep track of how long the barrel would last by counting the primers I shot. I bought 22thousand,and an odd 100 once or twice, before I noticed any loss of accuracy. My load was 35gr.4064 with the 55gr.Sie.bullet, some of the cases I used were re-formed '06,so that load was hot enough, and very accurate.So if you want to know how long a hi vel barrel will last, there is your answer. I havent shot out 3 25-06s,but I have shot out 3 in 22/250.To explain, the .308 above, I used for big game,it was my only other rifle,at the time.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Putting some effort into keeping it "fine" is a small price to pay in my opinion and when those inevitable scratches and dents show up on a "working gun" it just makes it all the more dear! Sort of like my wife's beautiful stretch marks!Posted by: Pastor Carney | November 13, 2007 at 07:39 PMPastor, my wife would have a fit if I discussed her "anything" on a website for hunting and guns.May the lord have mercy on your soul sir (cause I bet your wife won't).

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from Bernie Kuntz wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Ninety percent of big game hunting in the U.S. can be done very nicely with a conventional blued rifle with walnut stock. However, when you hunt in B.C., the Yukon and Alaska the synthetic stocks and stainless barrels are good to have. I own only one rifle, of more than a dozen total, that has a synthetic stock. That is a .338 Win. Mag. that started out as a Sako Finnbear with a walnut stock that I had inletted twice, and it still changed impact. I finally threw away everything but the action, had a Lilja barrel installed on the Sako action, plus an MPI synthetic stock from Portland, OR, and a 1-3/4X-5X Burris scope. That rifle, in earlier and present forms, has taken seven or eight elk, three Alaskan brown bears, an Alaska-Yukon moose, several mule deer bucks, and three barren ground caribou bulls. When I last hunted Stone sheep in the Pelly Mountains of the Yukon in 2002 I took the .338 and my .270 Sako into base camp. The sun was shining, so I left the .338 there and took the .270 with me on the ten-mile ride to spike camp. Half way there it starting raining, and it rained every day for a week. I shot a ram with the .270 after a week of hunting but wished I had packed the .338 with the synthetic stock and stainless barrel. But, again, for the vast majority of big game hunting in the Rocky Mountain west, a good bolt-action rifle with walnut stock will do just fine.

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from Mike Strehlow wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Two for!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

45 Win Mag be perfect!

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph, Thank you sir! Looks better than I had heard! Wife is not gonna be happy 'bout this one LOL!Clay, if memory serves, Iver Johnson came out with a necked down round for the carbine in the late 1970's -- 5.77MM perhaps? Can't find it in my references right off hand. Ironically many knowledgable men and women have opined that the carbine would have better and longer served with a larger caliber round. Think .44 Auto mag or .45 Win Mag! Actually the opinions of that era were more for the .35 or .40 caliber rounds. Especially when many a GI met his Japanese counterpart, perforated with .30C rounds, at bayonette distances; I bet that AutoMag round would have had lots of adherents about then!SA

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from Trae B. wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I have a 1942 303. British it was my grampa's It hasent been shot in years but I took it out last night and cleaned it up real good so I could shoot a few rounds this weekend and I was wondering how it lived through a war and two generations and still be perfect.I also wondered how the hell people shot that thing more than about five times a day.dang that thing kicks!

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from dickgun wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I have seen a company called Sentry Solutions advertised and review their web site as well as some written material. There products are for gun maintenance. They tout law enforcement and the military as heavy enthusiastic users. I have not bought or used their products but their claims are high. Any one have any experience and/or reports on their products?

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from Pastor Carney wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I'm with Bubba and Old School and the many others who are hooked on wood and bluing. Nothing really wrong with the other stuff but I believe that "fine" and "functional" should intertwine.Putting some effort into keeping it "fine" is a small price to pay in my opinion and when those inevitable scratches and dents show up on a "working gun" it just makes it all the more dear! Sort of like my wife's beautiful stretch marks!

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from Old School wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I still like wood and blue and it appears as if there are plenty of others that still respect a bit of proper gun maintenance if you look at all the sales S&W is making with those new old revolvers. I don't want to be around anyone that runs over their firearms with their truck either.

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I love nicely figured wood and lustrous blued metal, but I know that a few days of rain can ruin both. One of these days I want to have a rifle that can survive a week of unrelenting rain without having to be disassembled, dried, oiled and reassembled. I like the idea of the Remington Tri-Nyte coating. What I really want is a rifle with a black or "blue" coating that doesn't shine like stainless steel. Contrary to what Dave says, I've heard that Kevlar stocks can absorb some moisture. Probably not that much, though. I'd like to try one of those Serengeti laminated stocks, but $1,000 a pop means I'm going to have to wait a little while. You know what nobody talks about? No one talks about what would happen to a synthetic stock if you shot the hell out of the rifle, rapid-fire. Would the stock melt? Smoke? Catch on fire? Be ruined? Also, if I recall correctly, the earliest stainless steel firearms used a stainless alloy that was tougher and more rust-resistant than the present varieties. I heard the manufacturers "softened" the current alloys so that they would be easier to machine. I remember when the S&W "Chief's Special" came out in stainless, you could bury it in your yard and then retrieve it after a couple of months with no rusting of metal surfaces. Bet you can't do that with the current alloys! My guess is that current chrome molybdenum steel is harder than current stainless steel, just not as rust resistant. We also know that chrome moly doesn't expand so much when heated as stainless does. There's undoubtedly ways to make better rifles than we have today. I'm waiting for barrels that will last 15,000 or 20,000 rounds in the hottest calibers. Yes, the classic firearms will never lose their appeal for me, but there are times when I want an "indestructable" rifle, because you hate yourself when you ruin a classic rifle on a hard hunt!

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from Mike Reeder wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Put me in with the wood and blued crowd. I readily concede neither is as tough as synthetic and stainless steel, but since I spend more time gazing at my guns than firing at game I opt for aesthetics. Besides, cleaning them up gives me a chance to bask in the aroma of Hoppe's #9. On the other hand, my son is hard as hell on rifles, and the Rem. 700 7mm-08 I gave him for his college graduation is matte black synthetic and stainless. As for barrel length, I own no magnum rifles, and all but one wear 22-inch barrels. The slight loss in velocity is more than made up for by ease of handling, especially in tight places. The one exception is a little Ruger carbine .243 with an 18-inch barrel. Loud but handy.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I have a Remington 700 BDL 22-250 34 years old, rebarreled 3 times and still kicking!

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from Zermoid wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

OK this won't "Look Nice" to some but my favorite shotgun is a Savage 57 (I think but could be wrong on the number) that I Painted Flat Black! De-greased it with Acetone, used Grey Auto primer, then Flat Black Enamel, only exposed steel is the mag tube the slide has to ride on, the action bar, and the bolt. Figured not only would the paint on these parts get scraped off but would slow and gum up the action. But basically the gun is moisture proof, and all it needs is the tube oiled and the action wiped and oiled occasionally. Sure I still have to clean and oil the bore but I can come in from rain or snow and sit the gun next to the radiator to warm and dry and not see a speck of rust.It worked for the Lee-Enfield.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

What’s funny provided, is after the fact that the gun didn’t blow up is when someone with a Remington Semi Auto 30-06 takes one of my bolt gun loads without asking and fires one. Upon firing, it kicks the crap out of them (not expecting that much kick over factory), ejects the empty casing into the next county and when they do find the empty casing they discover that the ejector ripped through the rim. Can you say, BLUE PILL TESTED!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

SilverArrowOn those M1 carbines, be nice if the necked the cartridge down to 25 cal!

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from Scott wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Maintenance, maintenance, maintenance, etc., etc. etc....This is the only way to preserve anything, including guns. Whether blued or stainless, parkerized or some other coating, ya still gotta clean it or it will fail you at the worst possible moment...I believe failure happens just for spite at that point. Instant Karma's gonna get ya, if you don't clean it up.Great thread.

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from Jackson Landers wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Greg,Amen on the 870 express! I have one in 20 gauge. The price was right but it has shown a greater willingness to rust than any other firearm I've ever owned. Truly a fair-weather shotgun.

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from JA Demko wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

The much beloved Savage Model 99 was neither easy to strp nor repair. I have 2 and it isn't a good gun for a neo to pull apart just to see how it works.

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from Mike Strehlow wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Another factor in indestructibility is ease of servicing and maintenance. A real tough gun is one that is not only tough to begin with, but also one that, when it does break, you can fix fast. Here's where military rifles shine. You can field strip a Mauser or Enfield bolt in a few seconds (Model 70 Winchester, too) without tools. With a model 700 Rem. bolt you need a tool to do it right. Here's where ARs have it all over BARs, model 94 Winchesters, and Rem. 7400s; you can take ARs apart in a hurry, replace parts easily, rinse out mud and salt water, clean every nook and cranny, etc. For the outdoorsman I suppose the prize would go to a stainless synthetic Mauser or Model 70 bolt. I've never owned a Savage 110, so I can't say what they are like. What's the toughest, yet quickest to field strip and repair gun out there?

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from Greg wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

My 870 express, nough said!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

SA Kahr is making them and they sell for $600 to $700 bucks... I have seen one but not shot it. Punch my name for the link.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Speaking of bombproof guns; I've heard rumor that some company is producing M1 Carbines again? Anyone here able to confirm? Maybe a link or at least the name?Thanks in AdvanceSA

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

ClayHope your surgery went well and heals fast.WA Mtnhunter

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from C lay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Dave in St PeteNo Sir you’re not baiting me at all. In fact, I get these questions asked periodically so it’s nothing new. It is a question that needs to be answered especially if you’re new or advancing in the field of shooting. A 24 inch barrel is the “GOLD STANDARD” in ballistics. Pending on the cartridge, the bigger the powder capacity the longer the barrel. A 22 or 24 inch in a 30-06 is fine, but going to a 22 inch barrel you will lose about 44 fps. However, when you get into the magnums such as the 264 Win Mag and the 338 RUM, a 26 inch is ideal. Shortening the barrel from 26 to 22 inches, you will lose 83 fps. More in likely, you will not notice the lost in feet per seconds. However, the extra kick and boom you definitely will, WOW!Sir Dave, by all means, if something isn’t clear or have a question by all means please askHere are some sites I dug uphttp://www.loadammo.com/Topics/October05.htmhttp://www.f-r-i.com/vel.htmhttp://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/longrange_shooting/ideal_barrel_308_tactical_rifle.htmhttp://www.tcarms.com/firearms/mzModernInline.phphttp://www.auto-ordnance.com/ao_aom110_02.html#02This next one is a bet lengthy but worth reading. I learned some things from it.http://www.jarheadtop.com/article_handloading.html

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from Jackson Landers wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Modern hunting arms seem 'cold' and sparsely utilitarian because we are, either in years or in spirit, old farts. I promise you that the day will come when my grandkids will oooh and ahhh over my matte black Remington 700 with it's composite stock. By then all the actions and barrels will probably be made out of some space-age plastic and the idea of a real steel receiver will sound luxurious.That Remington Model 700 seemed wholly unlovable when I first bought it. Compared to my old Mausers and pre-64 Winchesters, it was cold, stiff and lacked personality. But nothing endears a gun to a man quite so readily as successfully taking game with it and putting food on the table. The stiff, black Remington is now a trusted friend.

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from Jimmie D wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Sorry about the multi posting, told you I was old. Times I feel like Norman, kinda lost in the woods.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I like the real wood, and blued finish on hunting rifles. My worst experience with bad weather was a 5 day western hunt with everything from high wind stormes,hail,snow, and rain..what a mess! At the end of each day, I checked point of impact and gave my gun a quick wipe down then allowed it to fully warm to room temp(in our heated tent)then gave it a good cleaning with oil including the barrel. No surface rust that I can recall on any of the metal, and the stock was sealed with epoxy resins for more durablity.I worry more about stock damage during bad weather then the metal.

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from Jimmie D wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Hey Dave, just wanted to wade in and give my thoughts. I am like most of the old geezer generation, I like good looking wood. The plastic stocks are great and have their place but nothing feels as good as nice grained wood. I have 2 Remington LTR's and I ordered 2 Accurate Innovation stocks to slip these guys in. Accurate Innovation stocks have an aluminum bedding block and a Titanium pin through the wrist of the stock to help reinforce the weak part. I didn't get the "Cadillac" stock I really wanted, old budget just wasn't there for that part however I will say they look great and do the same thing as the fiberglass and maybe just a little better. Na, this is not a plug for Accurate Innovation stocks , I just want to let you guys know what I use and think it is a good replacement. By the way, I just finished reading an article in a magazine I "used to subscribe" too about a new line of Kimber Rifles and a matching 45 ACP's. I will just say the name of the publication is has ST for a name. The author was Pimping for Kimber and it is so obvious. It really P**ed me off. As you thread through the "bark-bark, woof-woof stuff, you can see the rifle is not a shooter ( but it is a real controlled round feed), however the author boldly stepped in and said he found a place where the barrel rubbed the stock and that was the problem with the 1 to 1-1/2 inch groups. Sooo, he had a buddy that had rifle number 2 and used his data to show the Kimber would shoot sub 1/2 inch groups. The way I see it, Kimber QC blew it shipping out a bad gun to be evaluated by a national publication gun magazine. He pimped when he listed the low group data in a table and didn't list his data the same way. I see it like this, 2 rifles, 2 groups average .95 inches anyway you look at it. Good by ST, Bet Chuck Hawks is grinning, no Pimping BS from Hawks or Petzal ( yea, I have been a little hard on you every now and then but you know your stuff about guns). F&S will stay around and my membership with Hawks will be renewed every year.Jimmie D

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from Mike Diehl wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

"I’ve seen two stocks break in the field, and a third break inside its hard case (without a mark on the case; how the airline managed that one I will never know)."Combination of moisture expansion and weak wood. Remember. When you put that shotgun on an airplane, it travels in an unheated cargo hold at an altitude where temperatures drop to 80 below.

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from Jimmie D wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Hey Dave, just wanted to wade in and give my thoughts. I am like most of the old geezer generation, I like good looking wood. The plastic stocks are great and have their place but nothing feels as good as nice grained wood. I have 2 Remington LTR's and I ordered 2 Accurate Innovation stocks to slip these guys in. Accurate Innovation stocks have an aluminum bedding block and a Titanium pin through the wrist of the stock to help reinforce the weak part. I didn't get the "Cadillac" stock I really wanted, old budget just wasn't there for that part however I will say they look great and do the same thing as the fiberglass and maybe just a little better. Na, this is not a plug for Accurate Innovation stocks , I just want to let you guys know what I use and think it is a good replacement. By the way, I just finished reading an article in a magazine I "used to subscribe" too about a new line of Kimber Rifles and a matching 45 ACP's. I will just say the name of the publication is has ST for a name. The author was Pimping for Kimber and it is so obvious. It really P**ed me off. As you thread through the "bark-bark, woof-woof stuff, you can see the rifle is not a shooter ( but it is a real controlled round feed), however the author boldly stepped in and said he found a place where the barrel rubbed the stock and that was the problem with the 1 to 1-1/2 inch groups. Sooo, he had a buddy that had rifle number 2 and used his data to show the Kimber would shoot sub 1/2 inch groups. The way I see it, Kimber QC blew it shipping out a bad gun to be evaluated by a national publication gun magazine. He pimped when he listed the low group data in a table and didn't list his data the same way. I see it like this, 2 rifles, 2 groups average .95 inches anyway you look at it. Good by ST, Bet Chuck Hawks is grinning, no Pimping BS from Hawks or Petzal ( yea, I have been a little hard on you every now and then but you know your stuff about guns). F&S will stay around and my membership with Hawks will be renewed every year.Jimmie D

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from Jimmie D wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Hey Dave, just wanted to wade in and give my thoughts. I am like most of the old geezer generation, I like good looking wood. The plastic stocks are great and have their place but nothing feels as good as nice grained wood. I have 2 Remington LTR's and I ordered 2 Accurate Innovation stocks to slip these guys in. Accurate Innovation stocks have an aluminum bedding block and a Titanium pin through the wrist of the stock to help reinforce the weak part. I didn't get the "Cadillac" stock I really wanted, old budget just wasn't there for that part however I will say they look great and do the same thing as the fiberglass and maybe just a little better. Na, this is not a plug for Accurate Innovation stocks , I just want to let you guys know what I use and think it is a good replacement. By the way, I just finished reading an article in a magazine I "used to subscribe" too about a new line of Kimber Rifles and a matching 45 ACP's. I will just say the name of the publication is has ST for a name. The author was Pimping for Kimber and it is so obvious. It really P**ed me off. As you thread through the "bark-bark, woof-woof stuff, you can see the rifle is not a shooter ( but it is a real controlled round feed), however the author boldly stepped in and said he found a place where the barrel rubbed the stock and that was the problem with the 1 to 1-1/2 inch groups. Sooo, he had a buddy that had rifle number 2 and used his data to show the Kimber would shoot sub 1/2 inch groups. The way I see it, Kimber QC blew it shipping out a bad gun to be evaluated by a national publication gun magazine. He pimped when he listed the low group data in a table and didn't list his data the same way. I see it like this, 2 rifles, 2 groups average .95 inches anyway you look at it. Good by ST, Bet Chuck Hawks is grinning, no Pimping BS from Hawks or Petzal ( yea, I have been a little hard on you every now and then but you know your stuff about guns). F&S will stay around and my membership with Hawks will be renewed every year.Jimmie D

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from JA Demko wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

RE: WWII Weapons StoppagesYes, there were issues. In the South Pacific and North African campaigns sand was noted as causing stoppages in the Garand, BAR, and Thompson if proper PM procedures were not followed.In WWII and Korea (which was fought with WWII-era weapons) stoppages due to congealed lubricant were noted under very cold conditions. Once again, proper PM procedures helped mitigate the problem.On at least one occasion in WWII, .30-06 ammo shipped to the South Pacific was incorrectly loaded with artillery black powder. The gas operated Garand and BAR were hopelessly fouled when using this ammo. The manually operated Springfield and recoil operated Browning machinegun (as well as the much less common Johnson rifle and lmg)could use this misloaded ammo.So, yes, stoppages did happen.

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from Brian wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Dave mentioned synthetic stocks not soaking up moisture and this is true of fiberglass and kevlar if the outer protective layer is not breached. Kevlar is an "aramid fiber" and all aramids have strong hydroscopic properties. This means that they attract water, not just soak up water, but will pull it out of the atmosphere. Think of the way sugar or salt clumps on a humid day. Over time this can degrade the resin that holds the stock together. Minor scratches can lead to major failures later.

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from Richard A. wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I was fortunate enough to be brought up on wooden stocks and pre-64 Winchester Model 70s when I did my big game hunting in the 70's and 80's and I wasn't paying the bills. Today when I am paying $700 to $1000/day for a guided hunt I think I want the most indestructable rifle I can get. In the field, rifles are tools and function comes before beauty. I suggest you keep your "pretty" rifles on the rifle range.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

My Wby Mk V .30-06 sports a 24 inch barrel and usually clocks ammo manufacturer's spec velocity and in most cases usually a few fps faster. I recently read that Krieger Criterion barrels on Weatherby rifles are drilled and rifled at minimum diameter rather than at the middle range of SAAMI spec for caliber.Maybe that explains why that rifle fouled quickly when brand new and still produces top velocities.

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from David wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I prefer wood and Blue Barrels or Wood and Stainless Barrels.

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from Michael wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Today, my deer hunting is less than 5 miles from home. A Lipsey's exclusive Ruger no. 1 25-06 with 24" lightweight barrel, Alex Henry forend, and Circassion walnut stock is my rifle of choice. If you can't reach out and touch em' with a 25-06 they are too far. I like admiring the wood and lines of this rifle which with scope weighs 71/2 lbs. In my younger days when I traveled miles to make hunting trips, a 2nd rifle always went as backup. Same for binoculars.

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from Dave in St Pete wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Clay,So are you saying 24 inches is the best or would 25 or 26 even be better?I assume that at some given point you will reach maximum efficiency for a given caliber. Is 22 that much worse than 24? I see that in the Federal Ammo info they use a 24 inch barrel on 30-06 to record their ammo performance.Serious questions here, Clay not 'baiting' you.Also as I tend to use the ballistics as recorded for caliber/ammo when sighting in my rifles, how much should I worry about having 22 inches when the test info is from 24. How much extra drop, etc?Thanks.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I forgot about those Ruger stocks Bubba... come to think of it they are good looking to me too. Luckily I have a Knight LK-93 which is the Ruger's twin sister and we've already spent some time alone in the woods this year!I have stayed away from the stainless steel (which really isn't anyway) just because the things are so damn shiny. You just can't tell me that if I can see it in the woods sticking out like a sore thumb from 100 yards or more that the deer can't see it. It may be true but I still don't believe it.Last time I went out west was 2003 and when I got back somehow there was a crack about 3-4 inches long running along the bottom of my Rem 700 walnut stock. It is now in a camouflage stock and I have mixed emotions about this.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Dave in St PeteA blast from the past from David Petzal!Like Weatherby, Remington equips their .338 RUM rifles with 26-inch barrels in order to get every last foot per second from those huge charges of slow-burning powder. However, I will always trade off a few feet per second for a handier rifle, and I had my .338 RUM barrel cut back to 231/2 inches. Theoretically, this should have cost me lots of muzzle velocity, but in reality I lost only 38 fps and accuracy increased markedly.Clay says, reduced barrel length resulting to accuracy increased markedly not related to barrel length. It was the byproduct of recrowning and or changing the barrel whip (tuning) of the barrel.http://www.fieldandstream.com/fieldstream/shooting/rifles/article/0,13199,1174248,00.html

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Dave in St Pete22 inches you could get everything out of it and that a longer barrel would not help?Excellent question Sir that I will answer for you.Glad you brought up the question/info!I’ve read that if you deflate your tires, this will make your 4x4 sink more in the sandMy Chronograph says that’s wrong, AKA: BS! So who is right? What you read in some rag trying to stay afloat to make money on something that sounds good or my Chronograph and everyone else in the shooting community? If 22 inches was the truth, it would have been the gold standard before time.By the way, if you take a 30-06 with a 150 grain bullet military load, about 1.5 inches, the pressure will peak at 52,000 psi chamber pressure then at 24 inches the pressure at the muzzle will be 12,000 psi.I’m a big fan of Army Colonel Hatcher!Need to read Col. Hatchers notebook!!Outstanding reading!!! You will find information that was discovered before the modern day Gee Whiz Goober Smootchers have discovered. This dovetails when Al Gore said he discovered the internet and Love Canal!

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from Dave in St Pete wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Clay,My Savage 30-06 came with a 22 inch barrel. I remember reading somewhere that with 22 inches you could get everything out of it and that a longer barrel would not help.

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from Dan wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Hey I just got rid of that skeletonized stock on my ruger .243 stainless in favor of a brown laminated one, and I've never been so happy with it. It was my first bolt gun and I guess my tastes changed. If you ask me, brown laminate is a good compromise between beutiful natural wood and butt ugly black synthetics. It'll still allow that gun to do rainy day duty.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

When Bill Ruger came out with the Ruger #3 in 45-70, He tried to blow one up by overloading it. The load was so hot; it melted the case in the chamber and busted the stock in three places. To me, this is what you would call Indestructible rifle at its finest.By the way, last Saturday my Wife slammed a big doe with my 22-250. Dropped in her tracks like a ton of rocks. We waited 15 minutes and my friend bagged a nice 5 pointer that swooped in for the downed doe to get some instead the buck got a 30-06 Hornady 150 grain SST loaded with 53 grains of IMR 4064 @ 3080fps out of a 22 inch barrel. Ya-Ya I know, I gave David hell over loping off the barrel of his 338 RUM!

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from Dennis Crabtrey II wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

On the Ruger "Paddle Stocks" as I've heard them called. They're absolutely BRUTAL in recoil transfer. They have 2 steel plates in them 1 under the recoil pad and one running length wise. Shooting one in 30-06 is no fun at all.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Dr. RalphI've even considered synthetic/stainless! (Let's call it S/S!)When I saw the first one's, I was terribly underwhelmed! Then Ruger came out with the (?) I suppose you might call it semi-skeletonized stock. I suddenly fell deeply in love with S/S. Problem was, at that period, I couldn't afford one. Now that I can afford one, they (Ruger) no longer offers the "semi-skeletonized" stock. Guess I better get busy and hit some gun shows before HRC hits the WH!I think the S/S rifles are a very intelligent answer to an age old delimma. Short of using one to drive tent stakes, they are very durable!Sitting in a gun rack? Give me blued steel and wood!Bubba

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from Dave in St Pete wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph,Wood and blue may be dying relics but we far right whack jobs are the ones doing killing with our love of EBRs. So, don't worry (for either actually).

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I like pretty guns... nothing like walnut but more and more of my rifles are now black. It took some getting used to but everything around me is changing. There's some gang banger on the radio cussing me out and they call it music? Whatever... I suppose this is an improvement but for some strange reason the things I like are now considered old fashioned, out of date, and hard to find. Like that guy on the Fred Thompson debate said we're a bunch of far right whack job dying relics.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I'd like to have a Remington slug gun with the Trinyte coating, permanently attached barrel, reworked trigger and drilled and tapped receiver.Kind of what the old Ithaca slug guns were like (when you could still buy them). A real slug gun.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Roseanne could sing the national anthem again and burst their eardrums.That would give you plenty of time to run like hell.

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from Steve C wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I require no nimbleness from Roseanne. She’s just there to serve as the large and immoveable object to stand in front of me to deflect the blows while I run screaming from the bar.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I'm not so sure Roseanne is nimble enough to be of that much use in a brawl. Ms. Diaz could certainly distract the opponent(s) long enough to place a couple of well aimed hits!

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Regardless of your choice of stock material and metal finish it pays to adhere to the following in the Rockies: Never leave your rifle on your horse when you are not in the saddle (if not tied with a short rope the sucker WILL decide to roll on the rifle and saddle), always use a chap leather lined leather scabbard or at least one that is well used and soft, never one of those so called wool lined cloth types which soak up horse sweat or rain and hold it, and always leave your rifle outside that warm tent or cabin at the end of the day (use your .44 or pepper sprayer to ward off grizzlies). It also doesn't hurt to take a can of Rem Oil or similiar substitute along on the trip. Remember airlines don't like aerosols.I have and still use rifles of all types of construction. It took me almost twenty years to accept a synthetic stocked stainless version. Once I got over the fact that they are not as pretty as walnut and blue I learned to love them for what they offer in return.This reconsidertion of thought all started in the mid-eighties when I watched a 1250 pound horse roll on a Weatherby .300 Fibermark. The next day the owner shot a fine mule deer at about 200 yards with one well placed bullet. Sooo I started rethinking the situation.

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I promised myself years ago that I’d always stick to blued steel and walnut. But, when slogging through Virginia swamps for whitetails, I have to admit admiring a companion’s scoped Model 870 slug gun in black synthetic stock and parkerized finish.Cameron Diaz may look good on your arm but Roseanne Barr is more useful in a bar fight.

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from Bob Athay wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Dave--I think the key is to remember that all these wonderful, high-tech coatings still don't remove the need for routine maintainence. They can certainly reduce the frequency and effort involved. The question is how much, and at what cost? The outside of your rifle barrel may be impervious to the elements, but what about the bore, chamber, the locking lugs of the bolt and the recesses that engage the lugs? Not to mention, of course, the firing pin, springs, and the inner workings of the trigger, sear, safety, etc.?I heard years ago that nothing is sailor-proof, but a rock comes pretty close. Same thing is true of hunters and their equipment.Bob Athay

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Seriously:WWII ranged from oppressive humidity in the swamps of Guadalcanal to the sub-zero conditions of the Battle of the Bulge.Dave talked about several recent advancements that make guns more reliable. Was weapons failure major problem in WWII?

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

BubbaI've seen the movie and its on my list of movies to own on DVD. One of Mel Gibson's best. All I can say is yuck! To have to be in that situation.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

YooperJackWith much trepidation!Remember the statement by "SGT/MAJ Plumley" (Sam Elliot)in "We Were Soldiers"?Moore (Mel Gibson) told him he probably needed to get an M-16. Plumley replies, "If that time comes, there'll be plenty of 'em layin' around!"Bubba

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

C_SI agree. If I'm in a war zone, I don't want, "bang, click.... OH, SH--!"If I'm in a blind? Give me wood and bluing! If for some reason, it goes "click", instead of "bang"! No big deal!Kudo's to you for your service and the defense of "our" country!My hat is off to you!Bubba

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

How in the hell did both our troops and the Japanese ever fight in such God-Forsaken places like the South Pacific. Were rifles used mostly as clubs and spears? Never haved hunted far from home, or took a rifle on an airplane. Always wanted to but now you've got me scared.

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from Concerned_Soldier wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

The Harder, more indestructible, rust proof, the better. I have seen alot of soldiers give a weapon a beating and a beating of a cleaning, if you know what I mean.The beauty is in the TOUGHNESS!! Its a secure feeling when I know my weapon will take all the elements. I can handle the fact that it don't have a high polished piece of wood.Most of you men know, that a good ole' truck is way prettier than any sprots car!! Yeah it may look fast, but in bad weather and a bumpy road, I want a TRUCK!!I want something that can take a beating!!! NOW THAT IS PURTTY!!Great Post Dave, keep up the good work.V/RC_S

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

I personally opt for wooden stock, blued metal. I never let weather impede my hunting!To me, sitting around, disassembling, drying, oiling as necessary, and warm linseed oil are an added dimension to the hunt! I have one synthetic stock on a stainless rifle. It still gets the same treatment after a damp (wet?!) day out!Guess I'm just kinda old fashioned about firearms.Wood over synthetic.Blued over stainless or coated.Loving care before and after the hunt not two weeks later.No such thing as indestructible! Some folks could destroy an anvil with a feather!Bubba

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from Blue Ox wrote 6 years 22 weeks ago

Didn't Browning use titanium parts in one of their rifles? I think it was the reciever but i'm not sure. Anyone own one of these? How is it holding up?

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