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May 02, 2008

How Good is Good Enough?

By David E. Petzal and Phil Bourjaily

This past week I was drooling over one of Jim Carmichel's double rifles, a lovely Westley Richards .465 Droplock, which is a marvel of mechanical intricacy and British craftsmanship. Among other things it incorporates a safety block--a small lever designed to keep a gunbearer from flipping the safety on and causing you embarrassment when something was chewing on your head and you couldn't figure out why the gun wouldn't fire. It probably took someone a week to make and install that little device.

The metal-to-metal fit was so perfect that when you put the locks back in the receiver and closed it, you couldn't see where the parts joined--I mean, not even a hairline. Nothing. I can't even guess how long it took someone with a set of files and infinite patience to pull that off.

German and Austrian gunsmiths absolutely love mechanical intricacy. I once handled a double rifle that was designed to be used from a hochsitz, which is a treestand to you. Because doubles click when you open them, and might spook whatever was lurking nearby, this rifle had a pair of small, noiseless pistons that cocked it.

Most really good gunsmiths don't build guns for the money. They could make a lot more money programming CAD/CAM systems someplace. They do it because they like guns, and they do it because they enjoy pursuing perfection, and to show how good they are.

Sometime about 500 years ago, a European gunmaker completed a wheel lock pistol, inlaid, fancy to the nth degree, and on it, he inscribed in Middle German: "There, it's done. Anyone who thinks he can do better is welcome to try."

Which pretty much says it all.

Comments (74)

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 47 weeks ago

WAMtn Hunter; You stated you hunt near Craig, Co yearly, do you buy Elk tags over the counter or draw thru the limited areas? I fund out ther are some left over tgs in Colorado, but can;t get the correct info in what section. And, all Deer tags draw and i want a Mule Deer and a Elk Tag in the event one steps out. Cost to much to go huting out there with only one tag in your pocket. I got a 6 point Mtn Mulie would like a Plains Mulie Trophy size. What area of Co do you usually hunt? I have hunted South of Steamboat Springs, Hayden, Rifle, and north of Craig and West of Craig out beyond Maybelle to the Ariz line. But if corect, from Craig west was the severe bad weather with a huge kill off???? And i;ve been told the SE C0 has many Mule Deer and Lopes??? got my doubts on Mule Deer. I want to try for Mulies in WY the NE secton and a lope as well. Hopefully my Guide in MT can find me tags for that area. I;m also on the list in C0 and MT for returned tags, but thats to iffy. Plus if any returned, its another Lottery. Don;t understand all I know about these Lotteries, believe the game Depts decide who they want to hunt.Can bet they like the Non-Res extra $$$ compared to the locals, about 20 times more. Ok, take care.PS: if you hear of available tags for Mule Deer in the Rockies, please let me know. Past my bedtime, a old man needs his sleep. Just got home from Hospital about 7 and kinda tired. Got a new hunting magazine today, gonna read a tad and hi the hay,

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 47 weeks ago

Guys, went to Hospital and Dr's think all will be well soon. Got the bleeding stopped with some type powder apply several times a day.Plus the portion of the appliance( Wafer in Med terms) that covers the bowel that extends thru my side had enlarged and the opening on the portion that goes next to my skin was rubbing the bowel potion which in turn caused bleeding when sat down or bent over. As long as I was up and moving, no problem. So Dr changed the appliance to a larger one with the hole somewhat larger and to use a water-proff paste around the hole next to my skin. Hard to explain unless one knew about these problems or seen other guys/gals who had a Ileostomy. I have 8" of bowel from my stomach to this bag I have to wear. But, better to have one for l8 years than the 6 ft hole. So hopefully will improve so can et out and do a few things that need to be done. Got to shoot a few guns and take to smith for a tad of work. Then time to Sod Plant some grain for the game.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Going to Hospital early in AM. Bad day to g, but I got to have this checked. Monday is perating day, and usually they booked.My Surgeon is a gret guy and will see me if at all possible. Will call his Nurse at 7 Am, hopefully he can work me in between operations.If he can't see me, then will go to my family Dr and he can get me admitted as a EM patient TAlk to you guys later.Gonna lay down, read a new book on (What else but Hunting). Take care.The old Gun Slinger.

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from Del in Ks wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Rocky Mtn Hunter.You should go to an Emergency Room asap and get that checked out. Monday could be too late. I had a close call with bleeding ulcers myself.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Jim; Thanks for the asurance; i am a picky,worrier guy. Want all to be just right as far as it affects me. No confidence, then no game.As I;ve noted pior,im disabled/handicapped and forpast 2-3week, raw red blood been coming thu into my bag from the ileosomy.Had this bag for l8 ys, and this blood problem just started.( really after i did not draw either state, nerves can play a major roll on one as hipper as I.Realy has me upset, nerves, etc. Plus no drawing added to my woes. I plan to see the Drs ASAp on Monday and see what's my problem.I always look for the worst, hope it's just a scare his time.But anytime you got raw blood, something is wrong.And I;m so weak can;t hardley go, stay tired all the time.Yes, the gunsmth should be able to grid off the extra portion of the base and regrove the bolt slot. Not real fond of the one piece base, appears too little room left to insert Ammo.I;ve got 3 sets of bases now, surely he an make one work, if not, will get the Leupold Dual Dove Tails or a new Nikon monarch scope.Past my bedtime, better stop tonigh,was up most of last night with this blood flow. Got some Rx my help get me thru till Monday. Chat again.Gunslingr down South

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Rcky Mnt Hunter,I kind of figured you for a worryer. The grind off would work. But is it really that bad?There is no need for a re-groove, if its that bad then you need new bases. Try it first.As far as one peice mounts, I never liked them for same reason you stated.PS. Frame of mind is everything! I think its called confidence.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Jim: I'm a nut when it come to my guns. I want each and every piece to fit perfect. That l/2" over-hang in the action opening just upsets me. I thin my gun smith can grind off a l/2" and regrove for the cross bolt to slide thru. If not , will do as you say.Not really thrilled with that one piece mount, little space to insert shells, but been told, that it does make the action more stronger????I've gotten by for 60 ys with 2 piece mounts and no breaks yet. I just want all pieces to match and fit as they should. I returned a gun once because the cut out for the bolt handle was l/4" off center. When I spend my good $$$ I want it to fit proper. Suppose too picky on most things. I worried Marlin enough till I now got 3 sets of bases and l set of B Square rings. Love the B-Square, but not as well as the Leupold DDT. May end up putting a leoupold yet on and trade this Bushnell scope for a Nikon. I do believe frame of mind plays a larger roll that we think in our equiptment. l/2 A-- equiptment will cause you problems as long as you own it.I got a Custom made 06 on a Mauser Action, that had built, and worried teh maker to death. He told me he should charge me dble for all the problems I'd caused him. I told him if he had built s I wanted to begin with no problems from me, now fix it like I want it, and he did. I;ve love to take it to Africia, as has open 3 leaf sights and dble set triggers with a solid rib from action to muzzle.I did not scope it, and will not, as if go to Africa, rather it be open sights,. Just my thinking again,.Ok, gonna read all these messages then read a bit. Can;t do the puter stuff or read till night for some reason.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

RMH,Hey, Just because it hangs over a bit so what. I didn't mention that was one drawback but who cares? Take your time loading, its the first shot that counts.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

WA Mtn hunter: I love Craig Co. If were planning to resettle out west, that area would be it, or Missoula MT. The Museum is great, not as huge as Cody's but interesting. Has lots of Western material. Also, down the same street, is a small resturant that has the best home cooked food you ever ate and very reasonable. We ate supper there if they were still open when we got in lots of nights. No fancy dressing required. Just a good appetite.We hunted north, west and south of Craig. Lots of game ( Mulies then) out near Maybelle. Many Lopes north on highway 13. Can; recall the road south, but you turned south beside the Holiday In at north end of Craig.ON resturants, there is another resturant on the hill above the Holiday Inn,across road up very high, has the best Prime Rib I ever ate. I missed my draw on both Colorado and Montana this year, got KY to go.(only 70 tags available) But am in the drawing for turned in tags in both states, only problem, its so late when I find out if my 3 comes up, not sure will have time to get ready.Being disabled/handicapped, takes me a while to arrange for all I must take with me.(plus my wife always goes to look after my sickness) I figured with the ecomony in the shape its in, would be no problem on either state, but us hunters, will beg, borrow or steal to hunt, I found out. Be my first no draw for C0 in 8 yrs. But if living next year will apply again. At my age of 73, not many NEXT YEARS left . well, will just hunt w-tails here at home, per the tracks we got a couple nice one's, and we do plant a few food plots of the small game as well. Want the small game to return, providing we can kill some Coyotes and Foxes.Yeas ago, was many Fox Hunters around, but they all died off now and none left to hunt and run them out. Need to get a Coyote call or to and take out some of them. Take care, Have a good summer, and get ready for Colorado, wish I was going along. The old Gunslinger

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Jim: This Marlin was advertised as a one piece base mount when arrived, was a 2 piece Weaver. I called the dealer ,he called Marlin and they shipped the exact same pair again. The rear mount works great, its the front that is the problem. So I used the 2 rear bases and it put the scope in right position, but they are different thickness, never could get the gun boresighted.So changed back to the orig front turned it around and it works, but abut l/2 " hanges over into the action opening, kinda in the way when inserting shells, no problem on reject. Today, MArlin shipped a l piece base, looks like it may work, but not sure enough space to load the shells???? gonna take it to my Gunsmith and let hims review all 3 sets of mounts I now have and hopefull he can re-grove one so the scope comes back closer to me. Love the gun, do believe it's a clone of the Wincheser 70 with a Savage trigger. The syn stock fits the metal perfect, no spaces to spare around the metal. It also has a claw ejector like the 70 and the bolt remover lever is same as 70, that's why I think its a 70 Clone?????. I may have to change bases/rings total and use the Leupold Dual Dove Tails as I do on my 700's, they fit perfect for me.And, could be the scope, as the 700's carry Nikon Monarchs and I;m putting a Bshnell BAnner 3.5 x 10 x 45 on this Marlin.Space between the 2 bells is about l/2" difference, which is about the distance I need to move the front ring back to me. Kinda odd, 2 different guns will have all that much difference in placing the scope in a position that fits me. I;m a fast shooter when I spot the game I want, I don;t diddle around, I shoot. I see many hunters that fiddle for ever to fire.Soon as those cross hairs cross the kill zone I pull the trigger. I get all bent out of shape if I diddle around, longer I wait the more nervous I get.So thats one reason I shoot in a hurry. Last year here at home, I was 130 yds from a buck, I clicked the safety on the 700 to fire, that buck heard that click and took off,I followered him with the scope and he stopped just prior to entering the woods to look back,(270 yds)when he stopped, was broadside to me,and i fired immediaely, broke both shoulders and all the internal organs a big mass of gook.I killed 4 animals last year, all l shot kills and all but one dropped in tracts, one ran about 70 yds. I can;t ever recall having to use 2 shots on a animal in my life.I;m no great shooter, but do pratice a lot, buy best Ammo available and the 700's fit me to a T as well as the Rem ll00 shotgun I use in E-Va where they run deer with dogs.Will keep you informed on the mounts, my Gunsmith is a Tool and Die man, (35 yrs) turned gun smith, he can make any piece of gun needed as has the equiptment/knowledge to do so. Just a matter of me taking a day off and going to his place. Maybe Monday. Take care. The old GunslingerPS; I hate to watch a animal a long time, I'd rather he just appear within my shooting range and be what I want and fire. As soon as i spot him in glasses and think he's what I want, then I range him if time, then fire or forget him. 100 to l50 yds I forget the rangefinder, as pretty well can judge that distance, other than in the rolling plains in that sage out west, that really fools me,. Thos rolling hills and valleys may look to be 100 yds, but really are near 300 if a deep valley between the hills. But, O do I love to smell that Sage. As I said, I envy you Western guys with all that great game to hunt.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

RMHThanks for the museum tip in Craig, Colorado. We hunt there every year and I never gave much thought to that old west museum.I will make time to go there this year for sure. Good luck on your draw.Best regards,WA Mtnhunter

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

RMH,PSI don't own a syn stock rifle but I imagine good old soap and water would work.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Rky Mtn Hntr,If I understand your scope mounting problems correctly, I had a similar problem on a earlier rifle some time ago. I had a two piece Weaver base and the front base was longer/shorter. Well I needed the scope to come back more so I switched the bases putting front on rear etc. It worked fine and got proper eye relief.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Jim in MO: Will try to stick with guns, ammo and hunting as the Political world gone to Hell anyway.Kinda a less of 2 evils this year. No way for us to win. Just pay more taxes and try to make ends meet. Get in a few days o hunting and hopefully a new gun or two. Love the MArlin XL7. Having a litle trouble getting a mount tht fits me. I believe I need a reversiable front ring, as scope need needs to come bckwards about 3/4" to l". Had to do that on a 700 once, and it worked perfect. Plan to gomto gunsmiths tomorow and let him work on it.He has many different bases and surely will have one that will work.It taks a Win 70 base to match up the holes. Gonna ry to gt bvy till Leupold makes a Dual Dove tail for it. This gun is ni beauty as I told above,bu appears o be functional and teh metal and stock fits like a glove.Love the new trigger. I needed a new gun like a hole in head, but was beting up my 70's on the 4 wheeler and truck. Got this gun just fo that hauling about. As will be hunting here at home this year it ppears, failed o draw C0,MT. Still no word on KY bu they have few tags and thousands of applications. Be nice if could draw, would take the Motor Home up and stay out in the wild if they allow such.Do want a nie Mulie while yet able to hunt, got a 6 pointer, but want a rophy in 4 x 4 or larger. And a rophy Lope I would take if offered. Understand that NE WY has both? Read lst night in a hunt mag, that the Wet had no recovred from the winter kill off of 92-93.I fel the same, as been every year since but one, and no abudance of Mulie deer.Got zillions of W-tails same as us. I think the Rocky Mtn states just pulling our legs on BLM land of pleny fo Mulies, so we will buy tags.No doubt many on Private property and game farms, but cost arm and leg to hunt there. I don't like the game farms period.Saw A Elk farm in HAyden, C0 in 93, almost turned me against western hunting period.. Thats not hunting, its target pratice or a shoot.Afraid sooner or later only the rich will be able to hunt out there. Cost dearly now and goes up yearly.Would like to be one of the hunters they gonna hire to kill thousands of Elk in teh Rocky Mtn National PArk by sharpshooters. Kinda stupid to me, when us hunters would bve happy to buy a tag and hunt. They say it's to dangerous, but could close the park on hunt days. Dout many hunters out there then,mayve a few back-packers. But give advance notice and make orange a must to be there, O well, when Tax payer $ tthey could care less. When I was thers in 98 and agan in 2001 could have my Bull in 30 minutes after daylight or 30 min. before sunset. They everwhere in Estes park. If you know a good outfit-prefer a handicap club I could hunt with next year for Nulies-.Lopes I'd appreciate the info. Got to get. take care. The Old Gunslinger. Hopefully a repot on the MArlin XL7 this weej providing cn get this scope positioned correct for me. I's a little guy 5'9". weigh 128 lbs but a long arm reach.Takes a 33" shirt for me,.I want the scope where I only have to lay my cheek on the cheek piece to view the full scope as my 700's with the Nikon Monarch scopes. I don;t want to have to streach out a mile to get the full view.. Maybe it's just me, but teh Nikon Nonatch fits my length of pull and view better than any scopes I've tried,.If it don;t fit me, it's useless as far as I'm concerned. Suppose that why I;ve been so successful with my Nikons in past 7=8 yrs verses the Bushnells..As you know when you pick up a gun,you know right off if it fits your are not,same with me on both guns and scopes. Going to get, early Dr's appt in AM. Bleeding thru my Ileostomy, scares me to death, as raw blood don;t just happen for no reason, something has happened, or worse. Take care, shoot-um straight and often.What part of this world do you live? Rockies>?What do you clean your Syn stocks with? Gun Scrubber has 2 types now, one for Syn and one for al others. The one fr Syn;s kinda streakes the surface which has a sandy tpye feel finish, checkered grip and forearm

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

ishawooa:Afraid that is taking place in all the Rockies.Million $ homes taking away the prime hunting areas or being built where to dangerous to hunt.Some beautiful ranches along that road, not shacks either. Country is beathtaking.Wish I had more time to look the area over ,but had to get to Missoula for a hunt.Had driven from Douglas ,WY on a successful Lope hunt with Hella-va-hunt.13 hunters, all disabled, all filled their tags in 3 days.I got a nice l5 l/2" about 8 Am on opening AM. That 700 in 25-06 zeroed at 200 yds did a number on him using Winchester Ballastic tips in ll7 gr. removed his back bone about 3"below the top. Lope was at 325yds. When we feel down and out, we should hunt with a bunch of guys such as these.They were from Florida to Canada. One from Florida was a 55 yr old Blind man, his Son had a special scope mounted on a 308 about 12"high and he sighted the animal an told his Dad when to fire,one shot and was over,.Don;t know who was the happiest,the guy or the rest of us. This guy had sight till was 5 yrs old, then lost it due to some sickness. But think he enjoyed his outing as much as any of us did, maybe more. I sure would like to hunt Mule Deer in the area between Douglas, Wy and Cody. Any suggestions for 2009. With my health problems,I almost have to stay in a Motel, as need hot water each Am and Pm. I have a Ilesotomy and 2 replaced hips, so kinda hard for me to hunt as a regular guy does. I have hunt from vehicle permits from all the western states. Sometimes I sit in the Auto or take my folding chair and find a huge tree and kind hide Behind it and wait. I usually rent a SUV,that the rear glass door folds up and I get in the back, raise the glass lid up and hunt from there, keeps me dry and a tad warmer at least.But below 0 still kinda cool. I use ground blids hee at home with a Big Daddy heater, that realy works.My Son and I working on a blind on wheels so can move about if game changes routes.The Heater really works great in it. It is 6 x 8 with slanded roof and windows in front and sides that fold out. May add a swinging or liftup cot to one wall,so can take a nap about 2 till 3. Lazy man;s hunt. But at least I;m out there and thats all I care.Peaceful and world to myself, eyeballs hanging out on nose. Thank God for good glsses. How is the game crop in Wy this year? hear they had a terrible winter kill off in portions of C0.I failed to draw C0 and Mt this year, name in the pot for left over tags,but not likely to work out. Did apply to KY,but only 200 tags to be sold.Montana had 12.400 total tags, and over 20.000 applied. I have always drawn Montana, never dreamed I would not draw Mt this year with the economy in the shape it's in.I figured would be tags left over.(Mt has another Lottery at $5.00 per ticket,then they go in the 2n Lottery again) just another way to raise $ and will only be 8 ( eight tags in this one) But us hunters would Pawn our souls to hunt I suppose.I figure many that hunted C0 in the past, applied to MT after the winter kill off of over 50% I;m told.I've hunted that area where the kill off occured, nothing from highway 70 from Dillion C0 till you reach Alaska to slow down the wind /snow. If you know of a hunt I could do for mulies and or Lopes combined for 2009,keep me in mind.Do you know of a Handicapped club in your area? Love the Marlin XL7. Just what I wanted for my 4 wheeler and truck gun. The best fitting syn stock to metal I ever saw and the workmanship is superior to most Syn stocked firearms. Love that new trigger and the 3 l/2 lb pull. Got my new scope on , now may take to range tomorrow or next day. This is my first 270 caliber,I;m use to the 700's in 25-06 and 30-06, more towards the 06. Ok, time to hit the hay. Take care, the old gun slinger

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Rocky Mtn HunterI am sure you ate at Maxwell's and bought your boots at Wayne's Boots. I patronize both places often. Of course the motel could have been any one of dozens. Insofar as the trip up to Eastgate we hunt from almost each trailhead you passed by. I have shot lots of elk and deer along that route but none that made it into the B & C book. On the other hand several of my buddies have killed animals of book quality so I have experienced the priviledge of quartering and hauling them on my horses. This has been going on since '81 when I uprooted and moved to Cody. Hope I make it a few more years. By the way about halfway from Cody to Y-stone they are currently developing a 100 plus lot subdivision just before reaching the National Forest. It is for the wealthy only so there goes the neighborhood...

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Rockey Mtn Hunter,RMH, Glad you posted. As you know I liked talking to you and exchangin ideas. Not afraid to say I don't get along with Jk D. He's to radical. I'd like to talk again but as I said many times hate political stuff. This isn't what it's about.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Ishawooa:You appear to be a decent kind of guy , so I will respond to your article on the Cody Museum Article. I was in Cody in 2006 on my way to Missoula,MT. Spend 2 days in Cody and enjoyed every minute.AS you say, would take several days to see the guns at the Museum. Some daddies, if had the $ o buy the one's I'd like would takethe Brinks truck to haul the $. Speaking of Cody. We ate at a resturant across the street from the museum, great meal. I also bought a pair of western boots I been loking for years on a small shop on main street. Theier specality was hats and boots. I wore the boots out the door.( after paying for them). We also stayed in a Motelup on a hill nearby, forgot the name. Enjoyed the drive from Cody to the East gate of Yellowstone.Was there in l998 but was snowed out. Looks to be some great hunting in that area, sure would like to put the cross hairs on my 700's on a nice Mulie in that area. Think I would enjoy the area to live , but doubt I could tolerate the tought winter's you have.Anyway the scenery is outstanding and a nice Ranch there would be priceless along with many of the nice firearms in the Museum. I thought I had seen many firerms till I got there, heck I had only seen a small portion. There is a smaller Western Museum in Craig, C0 that is worth a visit if you in the area. They not only have many fiearms but a lot of western mdse worth seeing. How about al0K bucks for a S-Silver horse bridle bits??? Also a World champion S-Silver trimmed Saddle used and won the championship by a lady who also runs a store next door.(her daughter won the championship prior to 93). I kinda envy you western guys till the real Winter takes over, then I doubt I could stay warm. But us old gujys have a problem with circulation even in warmer weather. Enjoy Cody and enjoy every minute you can, time slipping us by.

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from suburban bushwacker wrote 5 years 49 weeks ago

Nice words as usual Dave, but where may i ask are the pictures?SBW

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from Trae B. wrote 5 years 49 weeks ago

Shaky: I framed that Magazine. Its on the wall in my room.

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from Peter wrote 5 years 49 weeks ago

Hey yall, just in case anybodys interested...I handled the new Mossberg 464 leveraction. I was selling a Winchester M94 to help pay for car insurance at a gunshop and there it was....tempting me...calling me....but it sucked..i don't care for it. Give me a Marlin or a Winchester. Its worth the price but I just don;t like the way it feels. It hasn't got the clean crisp feel of a Marlin r Winchester. Just my opion on handling.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 49 weeks ago

What do you call the only person left behind on a deserted island?BUBBA!What do you call the person on the “DO NOT CALL LIST” on an all paid hunting trip?BUBBA!Bubba would never make it to be on Jeff Fox Worthy in,Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Thats been my thinking all along. It better shoot almost as good as it looks or whats the point?

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun is a nice sentiment but if my pretty piece of wood and immaculate metal work can't do what I want it to do then the whole process is nothing but a tease... put a Remington 700, or any of these guns that are guaranteeing sub moa with a camo synthetic stock in my hands to hunt and if I want pretty I'll look at mother nature and all her beautiful creations. Pretty stays in the safe at my house or it soon becomes a scratched up dent and ding filled "just another gun".

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from Zermoid wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Walt Smith,I agree with ya but what can you do when the US Military buys foreign weapons for our own troops?Hell I bought a Springfield 191A1 which I thought would be made in the USA, but about a week after buying it I find, stamped lightly and in small type "Imbel, made in Brazil" on the underside of the gun, just forward of the trigger guard.Everyone is selling out to foreign low cost workers. WalMart which used to really push the "made in the USA" theme doesn't mention that anymore in it's ads as most of their goods are imported too nowdays.Can't count on anyone to stay true to the USA anymore, foreigners are cheaper to hire than our own people. And then people wonder why unemployment is so high, idiots!Sorry for getting off subject Dave.

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from just passing thru wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

BubbaThanks for informing us that you live in San Francisco and you enjoy being tied to the hitching post in bathroom of the Pink Flamingo

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from Dave Petzal wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Couple of comments: Buffalo Bill named his rifle after Lucretia Borgia, after the Florentine Borgias. SHe poisoned people she didn't like, and he claimed the rifle was as deadly as she was.The story about the European gunmaker is true, and I think I was the one who wrote about it. The gentleman who made the statement was the then president of Sako. He said it with a little smirk. This took place in the 1970s.

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from Carney wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

"Experts" never made America great.

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from Shaky wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

PbHead; are you bucking for TreB's position in next month's F&S? You make a good point on the incompetant gunbeares.

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

I think eyeball said it pretty well also, "...who wants to sleep under a freeway bridge beside an engraved gun?"First off! If I'm having to sleep under an overpass, I really hope I possess some means of self protection! Maybe a DIY engraved stick, materials provided by Waste Mgt, Inc.! LOL!!!!!I enjoy hunting, but I want to collect game from time to time. I enjoy guns, and I have a couple of pretty nice ones! (no Purdey's or H&H's) I don't have to have a Purdey, but I wouldn't turn one down because of it's beauty. Neither would I turn down a 12 bore, vintage 1950 J.C. Higgins if I needed a shotgun and that was all I had!To me, "GOOD ENOUGH" is "able to accomplish the task at hand, regardless of looks!"Bubba

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from Bernie Kuntz wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Gerald Keller, you have made the point that all of us have grappled with, but none of us has expressed it as well as you: "Life's too short to hunt with ugly rifles!!"Wonderful statement! You summed it up in one sentence!

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

I think Lucretia was actually an opera. Somehow Buffalo Bill attached the moniker to one of his favorite rifles. What remains of the gun is at the BBHC. Somehow the stock got broken and no one remembers when or how. Most likely during a drunken brawl or a horse that fell down sometime over 100 years ago.

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from eyeball wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Most of us use cheap guns because we have to work for a living and prefer food and a roof over our head to sleeping under a freeway bridge with an engraved gun at our side. But if you had the money, why wouldn't you want the finest gun you could get? What's wrong with a gun that shoots like a house afire and looks like one, too?As for that wheel lock, that would almost surely have been a dueling pistol for a nobleman 500 years ago. Those guys DID fight for their lives, and often. You get real warm and affectionate towards any hardware that repeatedly saves your life. Noblemen used to name their swords, spears, what have you. If you had a gun that repeatedly saved your life, you might even call it something like 'Betsy.' Or 'Lucretia Borgia.' Figure that last one out.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Two examples of being satisfied with what you have and making it work include the fellow who got each species of North American game in the B & C with a Rem M-700 7 mag (except for the big bears for which he borrowed a .340) and the guy who won the Grand a few years ago with a Rem M-870. Either feat is astounding utilizing any weapon but these guys (I can't even remember their names) did it with "tools" like most of us have or can buy.Gotta go take my kid black bear hunting...see you guys later.

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from sarg wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

sorry about the double print, got an itchy trigger finger this time of year....

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Clay CooperWhat would you call Clay Cooper floating in a farm pond?CC, water back! LOL!!!I've stared at more than one "beauty" through beer goggles, Clay!Years ago, I had the opportunity to pick up a catalogue(?), brochure from Purdey & Sons. I was absolutely dumbfounded by the information inclosed, including how to measure yourself for the perfect fit.Send them the measurments, half a king's ransom and they begin building your rifle/shotgun. Within a year or so, you get a telegram/call. You then report to Purdey IN PERSON. At this time, you try the firearm and any adjustments are made prior to a trip to the testing grounds (map included!). After the test, further adjustments are made if necessary. After that(!), the firearm is dissassembled, placed in it's handmade, velvet lined, hardwood case. You relinquish the remainder of the king's ransom, and are shipped merrily on your way!The photos are mindboggling! The wood amazing and wood to metal fit awe inspiring!Now, I believe the absolutely, MOST beautiful piece of wood attached to a rifle I have EVER seen, was done by Rhinehart/Fajen made of screwbean mesquite!Bubba

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from sarg wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Guy's, I like my older Rem. 700, in .308. Certainly not a work of art but to me at the time I bought it, it were all I could afford and they were really popular here at home. Compared to many other makes at the time ,it was well made and accurate enough for deer hunting.. It's still a pretty rifle. not scratched up or any thing. wouldn't take a new one for it. My old Stevens bought in 1967 for $35.00 still looks like new. Wouldn't take $1000.00 dollars for it. I used to trade guns a lot, but have some I wouln't part with.

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from sarg wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Guy's, I like my older Rem. 700, in .308. Certainly not a work of art but to me at the time I bought it, it were all I could afford and they were really popular here at home. Compared to many other makes at the time ,it was well made and accurate enough for deer hunting.. It's still a pretty rifle. not scratched up or any thing. wouldn't take a new one for it. My old Stevens bought in 1967 for $35.00 still looks like new. Wouldn't take $1000.00 dollars for it. I used to trade guns a lot, but have some I wouln't part with.

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from SilverArrow wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Jim in MoHoly S---! Over 6 Grand for that thing! Lovely to be sure but... About the only thing it is going to kill is bugs and I can buy a lot of Raid® for $6G! On the positive side if you can make it in miniature you can make a really tight full size revolver too; the Korth comes to mind also at over 6 Grand!SA

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

MichaelExcellent observation, case and point you make Sir!You would think Remington would revive the Model 788.It’s no longer about performance, it’s all about looks!I’ll take a old M-38 Jeep over a Hummer any day!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

BubbaBeauty is in the eye of the beholder?Question Sir, after how many beers is that! LOL!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

YooperJackYep, I know what you’re saying Bro! Taking an expensive piece of equipment out and one fall ruins it all or crossing a fence and a barb gives new meaning to pen striping!I’ve hounded Remington for years to revive the old Remington 03-A3 like I have. It’s made by Remington and shoots like a dream. Remington finally came out with a Mauser action, but they sure screwed up with a 22 inch barrel. If I want a shorter barrel, I like the option of shortening the barrel and customizing it myself. Just like Mr. David Petzal shortening his 338 RUM that I heckled him about and that was his choice for the type of style hunter he is. I just don’t like some Stupid Goober Smooching Range Monkey City Boy from Yuck Yuck Yucketyup Don’t Know Jack University that’s short of a 9 iron from some golf course telling me what I need!This brings up my case and point. A liberal truly believes you have the right of choice, provided it’s the choice they give you and it’s a crime to think otherwise! I stopped in an old Truck Stop that I frequented 3 times a week just to use the restroom. The owner asked me why I didn’t fuel there anymore and my reply? You no longer carry Coke, only Pepsi! He said, drop by next week and will have the Coke machine reinstalled and he did!I do have a rifle with a 16 inch barrel and it’s a Carl Gustaf Stads Gevarsfaktori 6.5x55 Swedish Serial #126XX. O’YES! A 6.5x55 BY’GOLLY!

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from JohnR wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

I guess that's the difference between a "safe queen" and a hunting rifle. ;-)

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from Michael wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Have to make another comment.I admire and love beautiful, well built firearms as much as anyone. My modest collection has a few nice ones, certainly not in the company of Petzal's and Carmichael's guns though. However, Col Whelan once said "only accurate rifles are interesting" Remember the Remington 788? Ugly as a sackful of assholes, but brother, would they shoot!! Everyone I shot was so accurate they were scary. One of the niceties of owning a nice gun though is the fact you can always admire your gun when there is no game moving.

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from Michael wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Someone once said that the Germans probably held contests to see who could make the most complicated firearms....much like Japanese camera makers do today.

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Knew a fella back home that came in our shop wanting a rifle to carry in his truck.After much thought and mounting and pointing, he selected a B78 Browning in 7mm Rem Mag and had us mount a Leupold 3x9 Vari-X II.About six months later, one of those confounded integral sling swivels broke and he came in looking for another. I think he used the rifle to stretch barbed wire and pound in staples. But he wouldn't trade it for the world.Bubba

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Silver Arrow,I would love to be able to afford a truely crafted firearm. I can't, but I can appreciate them. Today I posted about the Swiss Mini gun. Have you ever seen it? It takes the art of craftesmanship to the miniscule dimension.http://outdoorlife.blogs.com/thegunshots/2008/03/swiss-minigun-t.html

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from Jack Bohm wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

I like my guns to be pleasant to look at, but functional- a nice looking Browning Gold Hunter or an engraved Remington 1100 is a good example of what I mean by that.

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from SilverArrow wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

The art of fine gun making -- from ancient China to Germany, England and the US -- has a storied history. Exquisite pieces continue to excite the eyes of art and gun lover alike.Meanwhile utilitarian weaponry proliferates the racks of gun stores and discount merchants. No painstaking hundred plus hours of hand lapping and engraving for these work-a-day guns. Durability and cost are the driving factors.The nice thing is that the fine art guns and the utilitarian both have markets today. Like the finest race cars spill their advancements into the autos we drive; some of the lessons learned in making these superb guns can add beauty to our more pedestrian hunting arms. For that we can all be greatful!SA

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

A girl that cooks, cleans and performs 'other' duties flawlessly is the pretty girl to me. Just like my guns.

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from Scott wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Beautiful rifles are to be celebrated, as is any great work of art. The more utilitarian the beauty, to me at least, the more valuable it becomes. My wife, for example, is the most beautiful woman I know...AND she cooks a great pot of chili!! Gonna get some mileage outta' this one...!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

I am impressed with a gun that I can take to a range and put five holes touching each other at 100 yards. In fact it excites me tremendously... more so than a pretty gun.I am impressed with a pretty girl. In fact it excites me tremendously... more so than a girl who cooks, cleans, and performs other duties flawlessly...To each his own.

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from Bernie Kuntz wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Ishawooa, I met a guy from Casper about 30 years ago who has hunted all over the world, (I won't include his name here), lives in a virtual mansion, and I still see that he does a lot of hunting. He must be late 60s now. His only rifle was a 7mm Rem. Magnum Model 700 BDL. Believe me, the guy could have afforded anything. Interesting to witness the difference in people...I'm waiting for the results of that Wyoming sheep drawing.

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from Gerald Keller wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Life's too short to hunt with ugly rifles!!!

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Bubba I don't think anyone will argue your point since beauty is often determined by opinion. Indeed like Bernie stated, in the Rockies many hunters to consider a rifle to be nothing more than a hoe or shovel. Just a tool to get the job done. I suppose any accurate and reliable piece will suffice if this is your only consideration. One of the best hunters I know only has the one old S & W .30-'06 and can't tell a .223 from a .458. He has a big room full of trophies, some gathered on his own some on guided hunts. Either way he gets the job done with his mundane choice of rifles. This is the guy who is going to Kodiak for the third time today. I previously said it was in April but was confused about his departure date. I guarantee he will bring back a big bear. I guess my point is that his plain jane will work just a well as one of my "fancy" Sako actioned custom rifles. Like they say "whatever trips your trigger".

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

P.S.Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!Bubba

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from Bernie Kuntz wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Ishawooa--wonderful point you made! I stand in awe of fine craftsmanship, and I treasure the guns I own that display this kind of work. Some hunters regard a firearm as little more than a tool, like a garden rake or shovel. A friend of mine who is a very good hunter has a modest collection of Savage, Mossberg and other utilitarian arms. He says the rifles all shoot minute-of-angle and that he gets as much game as anyone. Can't argue with him on that.However, firearms made by master stockmakers, metal-workers and other artisans capture my attention. I am captivated by their talents and the fine work they are able to produce.

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from Walt Smith wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Funny how we admire the craftsmanship of those who 50 years ago admired killing our fathers and grandfathers. I'll keep my American made rifle over any german crafted product,MADE IN AMERICA is where its at and should be.

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Rather graphic, ish!But, I agree!How good is good enough!The highest degree of workmanship the craftmans skill can turn out with the best materials available to him/her! THAT; is "good enough"!Whether the craftsman's abilities turn out a "Mona Lisa" or a kindergarten scribble, both make somebody happy!Bubba

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Decades ago when I was a single young buck with a little money I was sitting in a rather low tree stand in the Mississippi delta. The ground was wet as usual and I heard something or someone approaching. I soon saw a fellow in bib overalls walking in my direction who had not noticed me since he was intent on studying the deer tracks. I made a slight whistle so he would be aware of my presence which he acknowledged by walking directly to my tree. I noted that he had a Savage Model 99 and he apparently like the looks of the Browning Safari .270 with the drop dead gorgeous wood of which I have spoken in other postings. He said something too the effect that "your rifle is to purty to hunt with". I replied "Isn't that like saying a woman is too pretty to screw?" He smiled, nodded, glanced at the old 99, and slowly disappeared into the brush.

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from YooperJack wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Clay Cooper:While I do admire the beauty of a Sako, I also admire the function of a Ruger. I would also admire the new Marlin Bolt Action, but its only in RH models. While the European guns are attractive, if a Ruger shoots amost as accurately, why spend the extra money? If I buy a rifle and its too pretty, I'll probably hunt less.YooperJack

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Clay I previously read a statement similiar to your most recent posting which indicated that the "European gentleman" was a manager from Sako. Apparently this happened several decades ago or so the story goes. I cannot verify the authenticity of any of the above but, nevertheless, believe that for the most part that gentleman was correct.

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from Blue Ox wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Goober Smoocher! Ha ha ha! :D

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

This reminds me of the story of a European Gun Maker visiting one of Americas leading manufacturers. The owner of that Corporation asked the European Gentleman what he thought of US made guns.He answered the question with one word.UNFINISHED!Which proves my case and point, that the U.S. has or had the ability to manufacturer anything second to none! Yet, some Goober Smoocher is looking more how to make things so cheap they barely have the quality that they are being used for. Take my brand new Remington Model 11-87™ Sportsman® ShurShot™ Synthetic Turkey for example. It has a plastic trigger guard and the rest is so cheaply made it’s not funny! Even the front sight that gets a slightest ding it makes the front sight totally useless.

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

My Shiloh Sharps is a beauty to behold. The action is as slick a owl hocky, and the double set trigger is as good as it gets. A couple of my shotguns cost more but aren't as pretty. It's probably the best gun I will ever own all for only 2400 bucks. Yes, it's very accurate but will likely never see the woods to avoid scratches. Who knows maybe some day I will take it hunting but not now.

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from Thomas wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Beauty is one thing but being able to take that beauty out in to the woods, briar's and brambles is another. I do not own a beautiful firearm. I own functional and utilitarian rifles and shotguns. If I owned I nice rifle or shotgun it would be a waste of money because it would never see the light of day. I have little children so all firearms are in a safe. I get very few visitors that appreciate firearms and even fewer that would appreciate a firearm like that. If I had the money to buy a firearm like that the money probably would go to doing something else like investing in my home. New roof and siding, update wireing and a new addition to give each boy their own room. But my firearms can be passed down to my boys when they get older for the moment. No telling what the future holds when we get a new POTUS.Tom the Troll.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Well if Dave refered to firearms as "lovely" they must be a work of art!

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from Dan D. wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Good enough is what you make of it. I have a $120 CVA muzzleloader thats ugly as sin and I have my doubts about its spanish manufacturing. But hey, it was what I could afford at the time, it extended my season, and guess what...the deer still fell over dead when they got smacked with the .50 cal in the boiler room.I think in general, the big manufacturers make a decent product that serves most hunters well. I own 8-9 different brands and they all work just fine. If we all owned perfectly designed, pleasnt to the eye and functional guns.....what the hell would we have to complain about?

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from Dennis L. Crabtrey II wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Individual taste says it all. My dad loves his Savage guns b/c they're utilitarian Stainless Synthetic and accurate. While I find these admirable qualities, and I own couple of Savages myself, I don't love them. I do admire my Blaser R93 Prestige in 243,30-06, and 375 H&H though...it's purrrrty.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

A lot can be said for the person who uses a gun as well as the maker. Across the street from where I work is the Buffalo Bill Historical Center which houses various western museums including the Cody Firearms Museum. This particular collection features thousands of weapons which range from obscure to famous, plain to outrageously elaborate, guns previously owned by unknowns beside those of Ruger, Hemingway, Tom Knapp, Frye, John F. Kennedy, and maybe even Petzal (I'll have to check out that one). Those of you who have visited this mecca need no further explanation. To you individuals who have never seen the inside of the museum I suggest you add it to your list of things to do prior to death. Allow 2 to 3 days if you want to see it all in detail.Back to my original statement regarding the gun users. In this museum is an 1895 Winchester in .30-40 Krag. It is highly engraved with fine checkering cut into extremely fancy walnut. There is an inlaid gold (brass?) plaque which reads something to the effect of "To my friend George T. Beck from William F. "Buffalo Bill" Cody". Bear in mind that at the time this rifle was custom ordered from Winchester old Bill was one of the most famous and richest people in the world although his fortunes later waned. Anyway...what did Mr. Beck do with this fine piece? From the worn blueing and the small scratches and nicks in the stock I would feel comfortable in stating that his went hunting with it in the nearby mountains...many times. Of course we all would consider the rifle to be a wallhanger or carefully store it in our gun safe but not George. He most likely felt it was a really nice rifle given to him by a good friend which deserved to be used so he did just that.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

In this world there is room enough for cheap ugly guns and masterpieces of metal and wood. They all serve different purposes... some well heeled individuals collect fine firearms rather than gold coins or paintings or sculptures. At least the artwork Dave describes also has a utilitarian purpose, besides bringing pride and joy to the owner.To answer the question "How good is good enough" all depends upon the individual. Sam Walton could own anything his heart desired but quail hunted with a Remington 1100 and drove a pickup. I too prefer a weapon that does it's job better than any other regardless of beauty. To me it's a tool, but if the tool performs flawlessly and is a work of art then why not buy into the total package? It's still nice to see guns as art and my appreciation for those who are masters is unlimited... too bad my budget isn't.

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from YooperJack wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Realisticly, a gunsmith would build something utilitatian. An artisan would build a work of art. I'm sure that the people described above built those weapons to be masterpieces. If I were talented enough to design guns, I would feel a lot better about making a nice deer rifle that could be used by any 14 year old on his first deer hunt, than on a masterpiece to be enjoyed by one person.Dave Petzal, you're a lucky man! You craft words that can be enjoyed by many. A gun artisan doesn't enjoy that luxury.YooperJack

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from PbHead wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

I share your pain and amazement. The lack of good gun bearers here in the river and creek bottoms of Illinois is a long standing problem.Mechanical complexity is almost as interesting as mechanical simplicity.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Dave,Reminds me of the worlds smallest gun I read about couple months ago, the Swiss Mini gun. Fires a whopping 2.3mm rimfire. Unnecessary but facinating.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 47 weeks ago

WAMtn Hunter; You stated you hunt near Craig, Co yearly, do you buy Elk tags over the counter or draw thru the limited areas? I fund out ther are some left over tgs in Colorado, but can;t get the correct info in what section. And, all Deer tags draw and i want a Mule Deer and a Elk Tag in the event one steps out. Cost to much to go huting out there with only one tag in your pocket. I got a 6 point Mtn Mulie would like a Plains Mulie Trophy size. What area of Co do you usually hunt? I have hunted South of Steamboat Springs, Hayden, Rifle, and north of Craig and West of Craig out beyond Maybelle to the Ariz line. But if corect, from Craig west was the severe bad weather with a huge kill off???? And i;ve been told the SE C0 has many Mule Deer and Lopes??? got my doubts on Mule Deer. I want to try for Mulies in WY the NE secton and a lope as well. Hopefully my Guide in MT can find me tags for that area. I;m also on the list in C0 and MT for returned tags, but thats to iffy. Plus if any returned, its another Lottery. Don;t understand all I know about these Lotteries, believe the game Depts decide who they want to hunt.Can bet they like the Non-Res extra $$$ compared to the locals, about 20 times more. Ok, take care.PS: if you hear of available tags for Mule Deer in the Rockies, please let me know. Past my bedtime, a old man needs his sleep. Just got home from Hospital about 7 and kinda tired. Got a new hunting magazine today, gonna read a tad and hi the hay,

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 47 weeks ago

Guys, went to Hospital and Dr's think all will be well soon. Got the bleeding stopped with some type powder apply several times a day.Plus the portion of the appliance( Wafer in Med terms) that covers the bowel that extends thru my side had enlarged and the opening on the portion that goes next to my skin was rubbing the bowel potion which in turn caused bleeding when sat down or bent over. As long as I was up and moving, no problem. So Dr changed the appliance to a larger one with the hole somewhat larger and to use a water-proff paste around the hole next to my skin. Hard to explain unless one knew about these problems or seen other guys/gals who had a Ileostomy. I have 8" of bowel from my stomach to this bag I have to wear. But, better to have one for l8 years than the 6 ft hole. So hopefully will improve so can et out and do a few things that need to be done. Got to shoot a few guns and take to smith for a tad of work. Then time to Sod Plant some grain for the game.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Going to Hospital early in AM. Bad day to g, but I got to have this checked. Monday is perating day, and usually they booked.My Surgeon is a gret guy and will see me if at all possible. Will call his Nurse at 7 Am, hopefully he can work me in between operations.If he can't see me, then will go to my family Dr and he can get me admitted as a EM patient TAlk to you guys later.Gonna lay down, read a new book on (What else but Hunting). Take care.The old Gun Slinger.

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from Del in Ks wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Rocky Mtn Hunter.You should go to an Emergency Room asap and get that checked out. Monday could be too late. I had a close call with bleeding ulcers myself.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Jim; Thanks for the asurance; i am a picky,worrier guy. Want all to be just right as far as it affects me. No confidence, then no game.As I;ve noted pior,im disabled/handicapped and forpast 2-3week, raw red blood been coming thu into my bag from the ileosomy.Had this bag for l8 ys, and this blood problem just started.( really after i did not draw either state, nerves can play a major roll on one as hipper as I.Realy has me upset, nerves, etc. Plus no drawing added to my woes. I plan to see the Drs ASAp on Monday and see what's my problem.I always look for the worst, hope it's just a scare his time.But anytime you got raw blood, something is wrong.And I;m so weak can;t hardley go, stay tired all the time.Yes, the gunsmth should be able to grid off the extra portion of the base and regrove the bolt slot. Not real fond of the one piece base, appears too little room left to insert Ammo.I;ve got 3 sets of bases now, surely he an make one work, if not, will get the Leupold Dual Dove Tails or a new Nikon monarch scope.Past my bedtime, better stop tonigh,was up most of last night with this blood flow. Got some Rx my help get me thru till Monday. Chat again.Gunslingr down South

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Rcky Mnt Hunter,I kind of figured you for a worryer. The grind off would work. But is it really that bad?There is no need for a re-groove, if its that bad then you need new bases. Try it first.As far as one peice mounts, I never liked them for same reason you stated.PS. Frame of mind is everything! I think its called confidence.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Jim: I'm a nut when it come to my guns. I want each and every piece to fit perfect. That l/2" over-hang in the action opening just upsets me. I thin my gun smith can grind off a l/2" and regrove for the cross bolt to slide thru. If not , will do as you say.Not really thrilled with that one piece mount, little space to insert shells, but been told, that it does make the action more stronger????I've gotten by for 60 ys with 2 piece mounts and no breaks yet. I just want all pieces to match and fit as they should. I returned a gun once because the cut out for the bolt handle was l/4" off center. When I spend my good $$$ I want it to fit proper. Suppose too picky on most things. I worried Marlin enough till I now got 3 sets of bases and l set of B Square rings. Love the B-Square, but not as well as the Leupold DDT. May end up putting a leoupold yet on and trade this Bushnell scope for a Nikon. I do believe frame of mind plays a larger roll that we think in our equiptment. l/2 A-- equiptment will cause you problems as long as you own it.I got a Custom made 06 on a Mauser Action, that had built, and worried teh maker to death. He told me he should charge me dble for all the problems I'd caused him. I told him if he had built s I wanted to begin with no problems from me, now fix it like I want it, and he did. I;ve love to take it to Africia, as has open 3 leaf sights and dble set triggers with a solid rib from action to muzzle.I did not scope it, and will not, as if go to Africa, rather it be open sights,. Just my thinking again,.Ok, gonna read all these messages then read a bit. Can;t do the puter stuff or read till night for some reason.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

RMH,Hey, Just because it hangs over a bit so what. I didn't mention that was one drawback but who cares? Take your time loading, its the first shot that counts.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

WA Mtn hunter: I love Craig Co. If were planning to resettle out west, that area would be it, or Missoula MT. The Museum is great, not as huge as Cody's but interesting. Has lots of Western material. Also, down the same street, is a small resturant that has the best home cooked food you ever ate and very reasonable. We ate supper there if they were still open when we got in lots of nights. No fancy dressing required. Just a good appetite.We hunted north, west and south of Craig. Lots of game ( Mulies then) out near Maybelle. Many Lopes north on highway 13. Can; recall the road south, but you turned south beside the Holiday In at north end of Craig.ON resturants, there is another resturant on the hill above the Holiday Inn,across road up very high, has the best Prime Rib I ever ate. I missed my draw on both Colorado and Montana this year, got KY to go.(only 70 tags available) But am in the drawing for turned in tags in both states, only problem, its so late when I find out if my 3 comes up, not sure will have time to get ready.Being disabled/handicapped, takes me a while to arrange for all I must take with me.(plus my wife always goes to look after my sickness) I figured with the ecomony in the shape its in, would be no problem on either state, but us hunters, will beg, borrow or steal to hunt, I found out. Be my first no draw for C0 in 8 yrs. But if living next year will apply again. At my age of 73, not many NEXT YEARS left . well, will just hunt w-tails here at home, per the tracks we got a couple nice one's, and we do plant a few food plots of the small game as well. Want the small game to return, providing we can kill some Coyotes and Foxes.Yeas ago, was many Fox Hunters around, but they all died off now and none left to hunt and run them out. Need to get a Coyote call or to and take out some of them. Take care, Have a good summer, and get ready for Colorado, wish I was going along. The old Gunslinger

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Jim: This Marlin was advertised as a one piece base mount when arrived, was a 2 piece Weaver. I called the dealer ,he called Marlin and they shipped the exact same pair again. The rear mount works great, its the front that is the problem. So I used the 2 rear bases and it put the scope in right position, but they are different thickness, never could get the gun boresighted.So changed back to the orig front turned it around and it works, but abut l/2 " hanges over into the action opening, kinda in the way when inserting shells, no problem on reject. Today, MArlin shipped a l piece base, looks like it may work, but not sure enough space to load the shells???? gonna take it to my Gunsmith and let hims review all 3 sets of mounts I now have and hopefull he can re-grove one so the scope comes back closer to me. Love the gun, do believe it's a clone of the Wincheser 70 with a Savage trigger. The syn stock fits the metal perfect, no spaces to spare around the metal. It also has a claw ejector like the 70 and the bolt remover lever is same as 70, that's why I think its a 70 Clone?????. I may have to change bases/rings total and use the Leupold Dual Dove Tails as I do on my 700's, they fit perfect for me.And, could be the scope, as the 700's carry Nikon Monarchs and I;m putting a Bshnell BAnner 3.5 x 10 x 45 on this Marlin.Space between the 2 bells is about l/2" difference, which is about the distance I need to move the front ring back to me. Kinda odd, 2 different guns will have all that much difference in placing the scope in a position that fits me. I;m a fast shooter when I spot the game I want, I don;t diddle around, I shoot. I see many hunters that fiddle for ever to fire.Soon as those cross hairs cross the kill zone I pull the trigger. I get all bent out of shape if I diddle around, longer I wait the more nervous I get.So thats one reason I shoot in a hurry. Last year here at home, I was 130 yds from a buck, I clicked the safety on the 700 to fire, that buck heard that click and took off,I followered him with the scope and he stopped just prior to entering the woods to look back,(270 yds)when he stopped, was broadside to me,and i fired immediaely, broke both shoulders and all the internal organs a big mass of gook.I killed 4 animals last year, all l shot kills and all but one dropped in tracts, one ran about 70 yds. I can;t ever recall having to use 2 shots on a animal in my life.I;m no great shooter, but do pratice a lot, buy best Ammo available and the 700's fit me to a T as well as the Rem ll00 shotgun I use in E-Va where they run deer with dogs.Will keep you informed on the mounts, my Gunsmith is a Tool and Die man, (35 yrs) turned gun smith, he can make any piece of gun needed as has the equiptment/knowledge to do so. Just a matter of me taking a day off and going to his place. Maybe Monday. Take care. The old GunslingerPS; I hate to watch a animal a long time, I'd rather he just appear within my shooting range and be what I want and fire. As soon as i spot him in glasses and think he's what I want, then I range him if time, then fire or forget him. 100 to l50 yds I forget the rangefinder, as pretty well can judge that distance, other than in the rolling plains in that sage out west, that really fools me,. Thos rolling hills and valleys may look to be 100 yds, but really are near 300 if a deep valley between the hills. But, O do I love to smell that Sage. As I said, I envy you Western guys with all that great game to hunt.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

RMHThanks for the museum tip in Craig, Colorado. We hunt there every year and I never gave much thought to that old west museum.I will make time to go there this year for sure. Good luck on your draw.Best regards,WA Mtnhunter

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

RMH,PSI don't own a syn stock rifle but I imagine good old soap and water would work.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Rky Mtn Hntr,If I understand your scope mounting problems correctly, I had a similar problem on a earlier rifle some time ago. I had a two piece Weaver base and the front base was longer/shorter. Well I needed the scope to come back more so I switched the bases putting front on rear etc. It worked fine and got proper eye relief.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Jim in MO: Will try to stick with guns, ammo and hunting as the Political world gone to Hell anyway.Kinda a less of 2 evils this year. No way for us to win. Just pay more taxes and try to make ends meet. Get in a few days o hunting and hopefully a new gun or two. Love the MArlin XL7. Having a litle trouble getting a mount tht fits me. I believe I need a reversiable front ring, as scope need needs to come bckwards about 3/4" to l". Had to do that on a 700 once, and it worked perfect. Plan to gomto gunsmiths tomorow and let him work on it.He has many different bases and surely will have one that will work.It taks a Win 70 base to match up the holes. Gonna ry to gt bvy till Leupold makes a Dual Dove tail for it. This gun is ni beauty as I told above,bu appears o be functional and teh metal and stock fits like a glove.Love the new trigger. I needed a new gun like a hole in head, but was beting up my 70's on the 4 wheeler and truck. Got this gun just fo that hauling about. As will be hunting here at home this year it ppears, failed o draw C0,MT. Still no word on KY bu they have few tags and thousands of applications. Be nice if could draw, would take the Motor Home up and stay out in the wild if they allow such.Do want a nie Mulie while yet able to hunt, got a 6 pointer, but want a rophy in 4 x 4 or larger. And a rophy Lope I would take if offered. Understand that NE WY has both? Read lst night in a hunt mag, that the Wet had no recovred from the winter kill off of 92-93.I fel the same, as been every year since but one, and no abudance of Mulie deer.Got zillions of W-tails same as us. I think the Rocky Mtn states just pulling our legs on BLM land of pleny fo Mulies, so we will buy tags.No doubt many on Private property and game farms, but cost arm and leg to hunt there. I don't like the game farms period.Saw A Elk farm in HAyden, C0 in 93, almost turned me against western hunting period.. Thats not hunting, its target pratice or a shoot.Afraid sooner or later only the rich will be able to hunt out there. Cost dearly now and goes up yearly.Would like to be one of the hunters they gonna hire to kill thousands of Elk in teh Rocky Mtn National PArk by sharpshooters. Kinda stupid to me, when us hunters would bve happy to buy a tag and hunt. They say it's to dangerous, but could close the park on hunt days. Dout many hunters out there then,mayve a few back-packers. But give advance notice and make orange a must to be there, O well, when Tax payer $ tthey could care less. When I was thers in 98 and agan in 2001 could have my Bull in 30 minutes after daylight or 30 min. before sunset. They everwhere in Estes park. If you know a good outfit-prefer a handicap club I could hunt with next year for Nulies-.Lopes I'd appreciate the info. Got to get. take care. The Old Gunslinger. Hopefully a repot on the MArlin XL7 this weej providing cn get this scope positioned correct for me. I's a little guy 5'9". weigh 128 lbs but a long arm reach.Takes a 33" shirt for me,.I want the scope where I only have to lay my cheek on the cheek piece to view the full scope as my 700's with the Nikon Monarch scopes. I don;t want to have to streach out a mile to get the full view.. Maybe it's just me, but teh Nikon Nonatch fits my length of pull and view better than any scopes I've tried,.If it don;t fit me, it's useless as far as I'm concerned. Suppose that why I;ve been so successful with my Nikons in past 7=8 yrs verses the Bushnells..As you know when you pick up a gun,you know right off if it fits your are not,same with me on both guns and scopes. Going to get, early Dr's appt in AM. Bleeding thru my Ileostomy, scares me to death, as raw blood don;t just happen for no reason, something has happened, or worse. Take care, shoot-um straight and often.What part of this world do you live? Rockies>?What do you clean your Syn stocks with? Gun Scrubber has 2 types now, one for Syn and one for al others. The one fr Syn;s kinda streakes the surface which has a sandy tpye feel finish, checkered grip and forearm

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

ishawooa:Afraid that is taking place in all the Rockies.Million $ homes taking away the prime hunting areas or being built where to dangerous to hunt.Some beautiful ranches along that road, not shacks either. Country is beathtaking.Wish I had more time to look the area over ,but had to get to Missoula for a hunt.Had driven from Douglas ,WY on a successful Lope hunt with Hella-va-hunt.13 hunters, all disabled, all filled their tags in 3 days.I got a nice l5 l/2" about 8 Am on opening AM. That 700 in 25-06 zeroed at 200 yds did a number on him using Winchester Ballastic tips in ll7 gr. removed his back bone about 3"below the top. Lope was at 325yds. When we feel down and out, we should hunt with a bunch of guys such as these.They were from Florida to Canada. One from Florida was a 55 yr old Blind man, his Son had a special scope mounted on a 308 about 12"high and he sighted the animal an told his Dad when to fire,one shot and was over,.Don;t know who was the happiest,the guy or the rest of us. This guy had sight till was 5 yrs old, then lost it due to some sickness. But think he enjoyed his outing as much as any of us did, maybe more. I sure would like to hunt Mule Deer in the area between Douglas, Wy and Cody. Any suggestions for 2009. With my health problems,I almost have to stay in a Motel, as need hot water each Am and Pm. I have a Ilesotomy and 2 replaced hips, so kinda hard for me to hunt as a regular guy does. I have hunt from vehicle permits from all the western states. Sometimes I sit in the Auto or take my folding chair and find a huge tree and kind hide Behind it and wait. I usually rent a SUV,that the rear glass door folds up and I get in the back, raise the glass lid up and hunt from there, keeps me dry and a tad warmer at least.But below 0 still kinda cool. I use ground blids hee at home with a Big Daddy heater, that realy works.My Son and I working on a blind on wheels so can move about if game changes routes.The Heater really works great in it. It is 6 x 8 with slanded roof and windows in front and sides that fold out. May add a swinging or liftup cot to one wall,so can take a nap about 2 till 3. Lazy man;s hunt. But at least I;m out there and thats all I care.Peaceful and world to myself, eyeballs hanging out on nose. Thank God for good glsses. How is the game crop in Wy this year? hear they had a terrible winter kill off in portions of C0.I failed to draw C0 and Mt this year, name in the pot for left over tags,but not likely to work out. Did apply to KY,but only 200 tags to be sold.Montana had 12.400 total tags, and over 20.000 applied. I have always drawn Montana, never dreamed I would not draw Mt this year with the economy in the shape it's in.I figured would be tags left over.(Mt has another Lottery at $5.00 per ticket,then they go in the 2n Lottery again) just another way to raise $ and will only be 8 ( eight tags in this one) But us hunters would Pawn our souls to hunt I suppose.I figure many that hunted C0 in the past, applied to MT after the winter kill off of over 50% I;m told.I've hunted that area where the kill off occured, nothing from highway 70 from Dillion C0 till you reach Alaska to slow down the wind /snow. If you know of a hunt I could do for mulies and or Lopes combined for 2009,keep me in mind.Do you know of a Handicapped club in your area? Love the Marlin XL7. Just what I wanted for my 4 wheeler and truck gun. The best fitting syn stock to metal I ever saw and the workmanship is superior to most Syn stocked firearms. Love that new trigger and the 3 l/2 lb pull. Got my new scope on , now may take to range tomorrow or next day. This is my first 270 caliber,I;m use to the 700's in 25-06 and 30-06, more towards the 06. Ok, time to hit the hay. Take care, the old gun slinger

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Rocky Mtn HunterI am sure you ate at Maxwell's and bought your boots at Wayne's Boots. I patronize both places often. Of course the motel could have been any one of dozens. Insofar as the trip up to Eastgate we hunt from almost each trailhead you passed by. I have shot lots of elk and deer along that route but none that made it into the B & C book. On the other hand several of my buddies have killed animals of book quality so I have experienced the priviledge of quartering and hauling them on my horses. This has been going on since '81 when I uprooted and moved to Cody. Hope I make it a few more years. By the way about halfway from Cody to Y-stone they are currently developing a 100 plus lot subdivision just before reaching the National Forest. It is for the wealthy only so there goes the neighborhood...

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Rockey Mtn Hunter,RMH, Glad you posted. As you know I liked talking to you and exchangin ideas. Not afraid to say I don't get along with Jk D. He's to radical. I'd like to talk again but as I said many times hate political stuff. This isn't what it's about.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 48 weeks ago

Ishawooa:You appear to be a decent kind of guy , so I will respond to your article on the Cody Museum Article. I was in Cody in 2006 on my way to Missoula,MT. Spend 2 days in Cody and enjoyed every minute.AS you say, would take several days to see the guns at the Museum. Some daddies, if had the $ o buy the one's I'd like would takethe Brinks truck to haul the $. Speaking of Cody. We ate at a resturant across the street from the museum, great meal. I also bought a pair of western boots I been loking for years on a small shop on main street. Theier specality was hats and boots. I wore the boots out the door.( after paying for them). We also stayed in a Motelup on a hill nearby, forgot the name. Enjoyed the drive from Cody to the East gate of Yellowstone.Was there in l998 but was snowed out. Looks to be some great hunting in that area, sure would like to put the cross hairs on my 700's on a nice Mulie in that area. Think I would enjoy the area to live , but doubt I could tolerate the tought winter's you have.Anyway the scenery is outstanding and a nice Ranch there would be priceless along with many of the nice firearms in the Museum. I thought I had seen many firerms till I got there, heck I had only seen a small portion. There is a smaller Western Museum in Craig, C0 that is worth a visit if you in the area. They not only have many fiearms but a lot of western mdse worth seeing. How about al0K bucks for a S-Silver horse bridle bits??? Also a World champion S-Silver trimmed Saddle used and won the championship by a lady who also runs a store next door.(her daughter won the championship prior to 93). I kinda envy you western guys till the real Winter takes over, then I doubt I could stay warm. But us old gujys have a problem with circulation even in warmer weather. Enjoy Cody and enjoy every minute you can, time slipping us by.

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from suburban bushwacker wrote 5 years 49 weeks ago

Nice words as usual Dave, but where may i ask are the pictures?SBW

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from Trae B. wrote 5 years 49 weeks ago

Shaky: I framed that Magazine. Its on the wall in my room.

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from Peter wrote 5 years 49 weeks ago

Hey yall, just in case anybodys interested...I handled the new Mossberg 464 leveraction. I was selling a Winchester M94 to help pay for car insurance at a gunshop and there it was....tempting me...calling me....but it sucked..i don't care for it. Give me a Marlin or a Winchester. Its worth the price but I just don;t like the way it feels. It hasn't got the clean crisp feel of a Marlin r Winchester. Just my opion on handling.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 49 weeks ago

What do you call the only person left behind on a deserted island?BUBBA!What do you call the person on the “DO NOT CALL LIST” on an all paid hunting trip?BUBBA!Bubba would never make it to be on Jeff Fox Worthy in,Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Thats been my thinking all along. It better shoot almost as good as it looks or whats the point?

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun is a nice sentiment but if my pretty piece of wood and immaculate metal work can't do what I want it to do then the whole process is nothing but a tease... put a Remington 700, or any of these guns that are guaranteeing sub moa with a camo synthetic stock in my hands to hunt and if I want pretty I'll look at mother nature and all her beautiful creations. Pretty stays in the safe at my house or it soon becomes a scratched up dent and ding filled "just another gun".

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from Zermoid wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Walt Smith,I agree with ya but what can you do when the US Military buys foreign weapons for our own troops?Hell I bought a Springfield 191A1 which I thought would be made in the USA, but about a week after buying it I find, stamped lightly and in small type "Imbel, made in Brazil" on the underside of the gun, just forward of the trigger guard.Everyone is selling out to foreign low cost workers. WalMart which used to really push the "made in the USA" theme doesn't mention that anymore in it's ads as most of their goods are imported too nowdays.Can't count on anyone to stay true to the USA anymore, foreigners are cheaper to hire than our own people. And then people wonder why unemployment is so high, idiots!Sorry for getting off subject Dave.

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from just passing thru wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

BubbaThanks for informing us that you live in San Francisco and you enjoy being tied to the hitching post in bathroom of the Pink Flamingo

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from Dave Petzal wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Couple of comments: Buffalo Bill named his rifle after Lucretia Borgia, after the Florentine Borgias. SHe poisoned people she didn't like, and he claimed the rifle was as deadly as she was.The story about the European gunmaker is true, and I think I was the one who wrote about it. The gentleman who made the statement was the then president of Sako. He said it with a little smirk. This took place in the 1970s.

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from Carney wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

"Experts" never made America great.

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from Shaky wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

PbHead; are you bucking for TreB's position in next month's F&S? You make a good point on the incompetant gunbeares.

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

I think eyeball said it pretty well also, "...who wants to sleep under a freeway bridge beside an engraved gun?"First off! If I'm having to sleep under an overpass, I really hope I possess some means of self protection! Maybe a DIY engraved stick, materials provided by Waste Mgt, Inc.! LOL!!!!!I enjoy hunting, but I want to collect game from time to time. I enjoy guns, and I have a couple of pretty nice ones! (no Purdey's or H&H's) I don't have to have a Purdey, but I wouldn't turn one down because of it's beauty. Neither would I turn down a 12 bore, vintage 1950 J.C. Higgins if I needed a shotgun and that was all I had!To me, "GOOD ENOUGH" is "able to accomplish the task at hand, regardless of looks!"Bubba

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from Bernie Kuntz wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Gerald Keller, you have made the point that all of us have grappled with, but none of us has expressed it as well as you: "Life's too short to hunt with ugly rifles!!"Wonderful statement! You summed it up in one sentence!

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

I think Lucretia was actually an opera. Somehow Buffalo Bill attached the moniker to one of his favorite rifles. What remains of the gun is at the BBHC. Somehow the stock got broken and no one remembers when or how. Most likely during a drunken brawl or a horse that fell down sometime over 100 years ago.

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from eyeball wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Most of us use cheap guns because we have to work for a living and prefer food and a roof over our head to sleeping under a freeway bridge with an engraved gun at our side. But if you had the money, why wouldn't you want the finest gun you could get? What's wrong with a gun that shoots like a house afire and looks like one, too?As for that wheel lock, that would almost surely have been a dueling pistol for a nobleman 500 years ago. Those guys DID fight for their lives, and often. You get real warm and affectionate towards any hardware that repeatedly saves your life. Noblemen used to name their swords, spears, what have you. If you had a gun that repeatedly saved your life, you might even call it something like 'Betsy.' Or 'Lucretia Borgia.' Figure that last one out.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Two examples of being satisfied with what you have and making it work include the fellow who got each species of North American game in the B & C with a Rem M-700 7 mag (except for the big bears for which he borrowed a .340) and the guy who won the Grand a few years ago with a Rem M-870. Either feat is astounding utilizing any weapon but these guys (I can't even remember their names) did it with "tools" like most of us have or can buy.Gotta go take my kid black bear hunting...see you guys later.

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from sarg wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

sorry about the double print, got an itchy trigger finger this time of year....

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Clay CooperWhat would you call Clay Cooper floating in a farm pond?CC, water back! LOL!!!I've stared at more than one "beauty" through beer goggles, Clay!Years ago, I had the opportunity to pick up a catalogue(?), brochure from Purdey & Sons. I was absolutely dumbfounded by the information inclosed, including how to measure yourself for the perfect fit.Send them the measurments, half a king's ransom and they begin building your rifle/shotgun. Within a year or so, you get a telegram/call. You then report to Purdey IN PERSON. At this time, you try the firearm and any adjustments are made prior to a trip to the testing grounds (map included!). After the test, further adjustments are made if necessary. After that(!), the firearm is dissassembled, placed in it's handmade, velvet lined, hardwood case. You relinquish the remainder of the king's ransom, and are shipped merrily on your way!The photos are mindboggling! The wood amazing and wood to metal fit awe inspiring!Now, I believe the absolutely, MOST beautiful piece of wood attached to a rifle I have EVER seen, was done by Rhinehart/Fajen made of screwbean mesquite!Bubba

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from sarg wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Guy's, I like my older Rem. 700, in .308. Certainly not a work of art but to me at the time I bought it, it were all I could afford and they were really popular here at home. Compared to many other makes at the time ,it was well made and accurate enough for deer hunting.. It's still a pretty rifle. not scratched up or any thing. wouldn't take a new one for it. My old Stevens bought in 1967 for $35.00 still looks like new. Wouldn't take $1000.00 dollars for it. I used to trade guns a lot, but have some I wouln't part with.

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from sarg wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Guy's, I like my older Rem. 700, in .308. Certainly not a work of art but to me at the time I bought it, it were all I could afford and they were really popular here at home. Compared to many other makes at the time ,it was well made and accurate enough for deer hunting.. It's still a pretty rifle. not scratched up or any thing. wouldn't take a new one for it. My old Stevens bought in 1967 for $35.00 still looks like new. Wouldn't take $1000.00 dollars for it. I used to trade guns a lot, but have some I wouln't part with.

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from SilverArrow wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Jim in MoHoly S---! Over 6 Grand for that thing! Lovely to be sure but... About the only thing it is going to kill is bugs and I can buy a lot of Raid® for $6G! On the positive side if you can make it in miniature you can make a really tight full size revolver too; the Korth comes to mind also at over 6 Grand!SA

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

MichaelExcellent observation, case and point you make Sir!You would think Remington would revive the Model 788.It’s no longer about performance, it’s all about looks!I’ll take a old M-38 Jeep over a Hummer any day!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

BubbaBeauty is in the eye of the beholder?Question Sir, after how many beers is that! LOL!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

YooperJackYep, I know what you’re saying Bro! Taking an expensive piece of equipment out and one fall ruins it all or crossing a fence and a barb gives new meaning to pen striping!I’ve hounded Remington for years to revive the old Remington 03-A3 like I have. It’s made by Remington and shoots like a dream. Remington finally came out with a Mauser action, but they sure screwed up with a 22 inch barrel. If I want a shorter barrel, I like the option of shortening the barrel and customizing it myself. Just like Mr. David Petzal shortening his 338 RUM that I heckled him about and that was his choice for the type of style hunter he is. I just don’t like some Stupid Goober Smooching Range Monkey City Boy from Yuck Yuck Yucketyup Don’t Know Jack University that’s short of a 9 iron from some golf course telling me what I need!This brings up my case and point. A liberal truly believes you have the right of choice, provided it’s the choice they give you and it’s a crime to think otherwise! I stopped in an old Truck Stop that I frequented 3 times a week just to use the restroom. The owner asked me why I didn’t fuel there anymore and my reply? You no longer carry Coke, only Pepsi! He said, drop by next week and will have the Coke machine reinstalled and he did!I do have a rifle with a 16 inch barrel and it’s a Carl Gustaf Stads Gevarsfaktori 6.5x55 Swedish Serial #126XX. O’YES! A 6.5x55 BY’GOLLY!

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from JohnR wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

I guess that's the difference between a "safe queen" and a hunting rifle. ;-)

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from Michael wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Have to make another comment.I admire and love beautiful, well built firearms as much as anyone. My modest collection has a few nice ones, certainly not in the company of Petzal's and Carmichael's guns though. However, Col Whelan once said "only accurate rifles are interesting" Remember the Remington 788? Ugly as a sackful of assholes, but brother, would they shoot!! Everyone I shot was so accurate they were scary. One of the niceties of owning a nice gun though is the fact you can always admire your gun when there is no game moving.

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from Michael wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Someone once said that the Germans probably held contests to see who could make the most complicated firearms....much like Japanese camera makers do today.

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Knew a fella back home that came in our shop wanting a rifle to carry in his truck.After much thought and mounting and pointing, he selected a B78 Browning in 7mm Rem Mag and had us mount a Leupold 3x9 Vari-X II.About six months later, one of those confounded integral sling swivels broke and he came in looking for another. I think he used the rifle to stretch barbed wire and pound in staples. But he wouldn't trade it for the world.Bubba

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Silver Arrow,I would love to be able to afford a truely crafted firearm. I can't, but I can appreciate them. Today I posted about the Swiss Mini gun. Have you ever seen it? It takes the art of craftesmanship to the miniscule dimension.http://outdoorlife.blogs.com/thegunshots/2008/03/swiss-minigun-t.html

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from Jack Bohm wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

I like my guns to be pleasant to look at, but functional- a nice looking Browning Gold Hunter or an engraved Remington 1100 is a good example of what I mean by that.

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from SilverArrow wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

The art of fine gun making -- from ancient China to Germany, England and the US -- has a storied history. Exquisite pieces continue to excite the eyes of art and gun lover alike.Meanwhile utilitarian weaponry proliferates the racks of gun stores and discount merchants. No painstaking hundred plus hours of hand lapping and engraving for these work-a-day guns. Durability and cost are the driving factors.The nice thing is that the fine art guns and the utilitarian both have markets today. Like the finest race cars spill their advancements into the autos we drive; some of the lessons learned in making these superb guns can add beauty to our more pedestrian hunting arms. For that we can all be greatful!SA

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

A girl that cooks, cleans and performs 'other' duties flawlessly is the pretty girl to me. Just like my guns.

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from Scott wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Beautiful rifles are to be celebrated, as is any great work of art. The more utilitarian the beauty, to me at least, the more valuable it becomes. My wife, for example, is the most beautiful woman I know...AND she cooks a great pot of chili!! Gonna get some mileage outta' this one...!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

I am impressed with a gun that I can take to a range and put five holes touching each other at 100 yards. In fact it excites me tremendously... more so than a pretty gun.I am impressed with a pretty girl. In fact it excites me tremendously... more so than a girl who cooks, cleans, and performs other duties flawlessly...To each his own.

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from Bernie Kuntz wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Ishawooa, I met a guy from Casper about 30 years ago who has hunted all over the world, (I won't include his name here), lives in a virtual mansion, and I still see that he does a lot of hunting. He must be late 60s now. His only rifle was a 7mm Rem. Magnum Model 700 BDL. Believe me, the guy could have afforded anything. Interesting to witness the difference in people...I'm waiting for the results of that Wyoming sheep drawing.

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from Gerald Keller wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Life's too short to hunt with ugly rifles!!!

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Bubba I don't think anyone will argue your point since beauty is often determined by opinion. Indeed like Bernie stated, in the Rockies many hunters to consider a rifle to be nothing more than a hoe or shovel. Just a tool to get the job done. I suppose any accurate and reliable piece will suffice if this is your only consideration. One of the best hunters I know only has the one old S & W .30-'06 and can't tell a .223 from a .458. He has a big room full of trophies, some gathered on his own some on guided hunts. Either way he gets the job done with his mundane choice of rifles. This is the guy who is going to Kodiak for the third time today. I previously said it was in April but was confused about his departure date. I guarantee he will bring back a big bear. I guess my point is that his plain jane will work just a well as one of my "fancy" Sako actioned custom rifles. Like they say "whatever trips your trigger".

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

P.S.Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!Bubba

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from Bernie Kuntz wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Ishawooa--wonderful point you made! I stand in awe of fine craftsmanship, and I treasure the guns I own that display this kind of work. Some hunters regard a firearm as little more than a tool, like a garden rake or shovel. A friend of mine who is a very good hunter has a modest collection of Savage, Mossberg and other utilitarian arms. He says the rifles all shoot minute-of-angle and that he gets as much game as anyone. Can't argue with him on that.However, firearms made by master stockmakers, metal-workers and other artisans capture my attention. I am captivated by their talents and the fine work they are able to produce.

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from Walt Smith wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Funny how we admire the craftsmanship of those who 50 years ago admired killing our fathers and grandfathers. I'll keep my American made rifle over any german crafted product,MADE IN AMERICA is where its at and should be.

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Rather graphic, ish!But, I agree!How good is good enough!The highest degree of workmanship the craftmans skill can turn out with the best materials available to him/her! THAT; is "good enough"!Whether the craftsman's abilities turn out a "Mona Lisa" or a kindergarten scribble, both make somebody happy!Bubba

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Decades ago when I was a single young buck with a little money I was sitting in a rather low tree stand in the Mississippi delta. The ground was wet as usual and I heard something or someone approaching. I soon saw a fellow in bib overalls walking in my direction who had not noticed me since he was intent on studying the deer tracks. I made a slight whistle so he would be aware of my presence which he acknowledged by walking directly to my tree. I noted that he had a Savage Model 99 and he apparently like the looks of the Browning Safari .270 with the drop dead gorgeous wood of which I have spoken in other postings. He said something too the effect that "your rifle is to purty to hunt with". I replied "Isn't that like saying a woman is too pretty to screw?" He smiled, nodded, glanced at the old 99, and slowly disappeared into the brush.

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from YooperJack wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Clay Cooper:While I do admire the beauty of a Sako, I also admire the function of a Ruger. I would also admire the new Marlin Bolt Action, but its only in RH models. While the European guns are attractive, if a Ruger shoots amost as accurately, why spend the extra money? If I buy a rifle and its too pretty, I'll probably hunt less.YooperJack

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Clay I previously read a statement similiar to your most recent posting which indicated that the "European gentleman" was a manager from Sako. Apparently this happened several decades ago or so the story goes. I cannot verify the authenticity of any of the above but, nevertheless, believe that for the most part that gentleman was correct.

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from Blue Ox wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Goober Smoocher! Ha ha ha! :D

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

This reminds me of the story of a European Gun Maker visiting one of Americas leading manufacturers. The owner of that Corporation asked the European Gentleman what he thought of US made guns.He answered the question with one word.UNFINISHED!Which proves my case and point, that the U.S. has or had the ability to manufacturer anything second to none! Yet, some Goober Smoocher is looking more how to make things so cheap they barely have the quality that they are being used for. Take my brand new Remington Model 11-87™ Sportsman® ShurShot™ Synthetic Turkey for example. It has a plastic trigger guard and the rest is so cheaply made it’s not funny! Even the front sight that gets a slightest ding it makes the front sight totally useless.

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

My Shiloh Sharps is a beauty to behold. The action is as slick a owl hocky, and the double set trigger is as good as it gets. A couple of my shotguns cost more but aren't as pretty. It's probably the best gun I will ever own all for only 2400 bucks. Yes, it's very accurate but will likely never see the woods to avoid scratches. Who knows maybe some day I will take it hunting but not now.

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from Thomas wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Beauty is one thing but being able to take that beauty out in to the woods, briar's and brambles is another. I do not own a beautiful firearm. I own functional and utilitarian rifles and shotguns. If I owned I nice rifle or shotgun it would be a waste of money because it would never see the light of day. I have little children so all firearms are in a safe. I get very few visitors that appreciate firearms and even fewer that would appreciate a firearm like that. If I had the money to buy a firearm like that the money probably would go to doing something else like investing in my home. New roof and siding, update wireing and a new addition to give each boy their own room. But my firearms can be passed down to my boys when they get older for the moment. No telling what the future holds when we get a new POTUS.Tom the Troll.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Well if Dave refered to firearms as "lovely" they must be a work of art!

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from Dan D. wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Good enough is what you make of it. I have a $120 CVA muzzleloader thats ugly as sin and I have my doubts about its spanish manufacturing. But hey, it was what I could afford at the time, it extended my season, and guess what...the deer still fell over dead when they got smacked with the .50 cal in the boiler room.I think in general, the big manufacturers make a decent product that serves most hunters well. I own 8-9 different brands and they all work just fine. If we all owned perfectly designed, pleasnt to the eye and functional guns.....what the hell would we have to complain about?

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from Dennis L. Crabtrey II wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Individual taste says it all. My dad loves his Savage guns b/c they're utilitarian Stainless Synthetic and accurate. While I find these admirable qualities, and I own couple of Savages myself, I don't love them. I do admire my Blaser R93 Prestige in 243,30-06, and 375 H&H though...it's purrrrty.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

A lot can be said for the person who uses a gun as well as the maker. Across the street from where I work is the Buffalo Bill Historical Center which houses various western museums including the Cody Firearms Museum. This particular collection features thousands of weapons which range from obscure to famous, plain to outrageously elaborate, guns previously owned by unknowns beside those of Ruger, Hemingway, Tom Knapp, Frye, John F. Kennedy, and maybe even Petzal (I'll have to check out that one). Those of you who have visited this mecca need no further explanation. To you individuals who have never seen the inside of the museum I suggest you add it to your list of things to do prior to death. Allow 2 to 3 days if you want to see it all in detail.Back to my original statement regarding the gun users. In this museum is an 1895 Winchester in .30-40 Krag. It is highly engraved with fine checkering cut into extremely fancy walnut. There is an inlaid gold (brass?) plaque which reads something to the effect of "To my friend George T. Beck from William F. "Buffalo Bill" Cody". Bear in mind that at the time this rifle was custom ordered from Winchester old Bill was one of the most famous and richest people in the world although his fortunes later waned. Anyway...what did Mr. Beck do with this fine piece? From the worn blueing and the small scratches and nicks in the stock I would feel comfortable in stating that his went hunting with it in the nearby mountains...many times. Of course we all would consider the rifle to be a wallhanger or carefully store it in our gun safe but not George. He most likely felt it was a really nice rifle given to him by a good friend which deserved to be used so he did just that.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

In this world there is room enough for cheap ugly guns and masterpieces of metal and wood. They all serve different purposes... some well heeled individuals collect fine firearms rather than gold coins or paintings or sculptures. At least the artwork Dave describes also has a utilitarian purpose, besides bringing pride and joy to the owner.To answer the question "How good is good enough" all depends upon the individual. Sam Walton could own anything his heart desired but quail hunted with a Remington 1100 and drove a pickup. I too prefer a weapon that does it's job better than any other regardless of beauty. To me it's a tool, but if the tool performs flawlessly and is a work of art then why not buy into the total package? It's still nice to see guns as art and my appreciation for those who are masters is unlimited... too bad my budget isn't.

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from YooperJack wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Realisticly, a gunsmith would build something utilitatian. An artisan would build a work of art. I'm sure that the people described above built those weapons to be masterpieces. If I were talented enough to design guns, I would feel a lot better about making a nice deer rifle that could be used by any 14 year old on his first deer hunt, than on a masterpiece to be enjoyed by one person.Dave Petzal, you're a lucky man! You craft words that can be enjoyed by many. A gun artisan doesn't enjoy that luxury.YooperJack

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from PbHead wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

I share your pain and amazement. The lack of good gun bearers here in the river and creek bottoms of Illinois is a long standing problem.Mechanical complexity is almost as interesting as mechanical simplicity.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 50 weeks ago

Dave,Reminds me of the worlds smallest gun I read about couple months ago, the Swiss Mini gun. Fires a whopping 2.3mm rimfire. Unnecessary but facinating.

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