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A Look Over the Fence

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March 31, 2008

A Look Over the Fence

By David E. Petzal and Phil Bourjaily

Five years ago, I was on a hunt in a high-fence ranch in northern South Africa when a friend shot and wounded an eland. He, I, the PH and two trackers followed the animal for four days, dawn to dusk, when the blood trail finally dried up and we could see that he was eating and drinking and not hit seriously.

The point is that we were hunting inside a high fence and we never caught up. Hunting in the RSA is now a big business, and game animals are becoming extremely valuable, so a high fence makes sense because it keeps them from wandering off, and it keeps non-paying personnel from wandering in and poaching your critters.

The plain fact is, that if you have enough acreage inside the fence and enough cover, the game has all the chance it needs to stay alive. Aesthetically it is not nearly so pleasing as hunting without fences, but that is the way things are today.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Get use to it, high fencing is coming at an alarming rate. I own a small farm less than 100 acres and my Son and I spend about 8-900 bucks plus many hrs with tractor to plan food plots for the wild game.Birds, rabitts, squirrels, turkeys, w-tails. Our property is off the beaten path but that does not stop the road hunters, poachers, Idiots from killing game on our property. We found 8 bucks last week, only the horns missing. I saw while hunting 4 deer in one pile, one a buck with his horns sawed off. Only meat taken was one side of back straps. I'd give a lot to know who did this. If was in a position I would fence it all or buy a couple of guard dogs. Some of the guys who hunt live as far as 50-75 miles away,as word has spread we go 2 Albinos on the property.I've decided to complete my ground blind or do a few minor improvements to the old farm house and spend a few nights there to catch these guys. HAve called the game Warden and he;s doing all he can, but they give him the slip. If i catch these guy, trouble is brewing. Someone suggested to shoot all 4 tires a couple times and let these guys walk 10 miles to a tire center for replacements. Shooting over therir heads does no good, as have done so, they return the fire. Have made up my mind, not going to continue to allow this period. Will take what-ever measures to stop it. I hunt out West each fall, and i pay dearly to hunt and never hunted with-out permission or either a guided hunt.So the fenceing is not all the landownere fault, it's the Damn poachers and the unwelcomed guys who are killing the prime animals.About 5-6 guys are willing to help me out this fall, as we plan to patrol the area afer dark and put a stop to it. Also, it's not just my property they hunting, its the joining owners as well,who live away and did not know this was happening. THey gave me permission to do what-ever was requied to stop it,and i shall. So next fall if not on the Blog,you will know I am in jail, shot or died.Any way, sometimes fencing are required to stop the un-wanties. Brings to mind a tip to oorado back in 93,we had maps and knew the BLM boundries. A few Outfitters posted the right of way into the BLM as private property. When you thousands of miles from home, its kinda hard to know where the BLM is. O well, not going back to Co. as winter kill has killed in excess of 50% of Deer and many Elk. Check DOW in Co. to get a report on this matter.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

What the hell lets buy a ranch, install miniature trains like they transport people at the zoo and recreate the buffalo slaughter of the 1800's.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

What the hell, I'm opening a game farm where you pick out any animal you want from his stall and we release him on one of those Motocross tracks... you get a Suzuki Quadrunner and a Ruger Super Redhawk and let the games begin! We could even make it a timed event. The television rights alone will make me millions, and then a feature film starring Johnny Knoxville and a Grizzly.

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from JasonB wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Sarg,We may have talked before, I don't remember for sure.Thanks for the info on the Harrodsburg Tankers. I'm not familiar with their history. Hopefully, I can get down there for it and talk my kids into going as well.

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from Shaky wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Jeff; enjoy it, sonny, it won't last long.

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from Jeff wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Jim in Mo, I'm 21. Ha, thought that may cheer you up.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Jason, I believe I've talked with you here before., If you are going to be around Harrodsburg on April 26 2008, there will be a big thing going on all day about the Harrodsburg Tankers. Kentucky National Guard, 192 Light Tank Battallion, They were sent to the Phillipieans during WWII and when their Commander surrendered the Troops to Japan, they experienced the Batton Death March with on 38 surviving. I may run down, I know some people in Harrodsburg anyway.. The Gov. sent me an invite.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Jeff,The stuff we're talking about now made me think how years ago as a child my brother and I would giggle when grandpa would start talking about 'the good old days'. The stuff we're saying now is the same thing except I truely believe my grandpa's generation was closer to my generation than my generation is to my 17yr. old son and definately more than my (hopefully) grandchildren..

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from Jeff wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

To Jim in MO. I know things are changing but I hate to accept going down without a fight. As with anything in life, if someting is good than by all means, defend it. You know the old sang, "if it aint broke..."

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Terrance MahoneyO’Brother , where were you on the June 08, 2007“The Great Crossbow Debate”? http://fieldandstream.blogs.com/gunnut/2007/06/the_great_cross.htmlThe Howler Monkeys and the Moon Children where all out on this one. Doing there darndest to say how evil CBs are. Then we have a Muzzle loader with electronic ignition and didn’t get all the hate and discontent as the CBs did.Del in KS saysGo with a flinter when the experience is more important than the kill.My hat is off to you Sir and a fine Sportsman to boot!!

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I am still opposed in principle to hunts on "enclosed lands," because I feel that the principle of "fair chase" is compromised if the game animals are "captives." I also don't like the idea of running around the woods in ATVs unless you are "physically challenged." And I have a problem with shooting deer right beside deer feeders. Hunting today is focused upon convenience for the hunter and increasing his chances for success through "canned hunts" and the like. It kind of reminds me of a small zoo near my hometown. There was a 12-point buck in that zoo. One night, some "hunter" broke into the zoo, shot the buck and dragged him away. That "hunter" was not too far from the ilk of some "hunters" that we have today. Yes, I've been driven to deer stands on a game preserve but I will never do it again. When hunting is reduced to the equivalent of picking out the lobster you want at a seafood restaurant, I'll quit. Going to Red Lobster and ordering a meal is not "fishing," and going on canned hunts is not "hunting." If you're not willing to meet your game on a more-or-less equal footing, it's not hunting that you are engaged in--it may be shooting, but it's not hunting.

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from JasonB wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Sarg-I know some folks from Carter Co. That's some pretty country over there. I'm about an hour south of Louisville in Hardin County, near Ft. Knox.

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from Zermoid wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Well after many years of hunting in NJ the difference between a high fence hunt and wild hunting is even more blurred for me, sure the deer were wild, and hard to find, but on so little ground it might as well be fenced! Other than the Pine Barrens there is no large expanse of woods (if you want to call miles of 4-8 foot pines woods) in NJ.And upland game? Pheasants and Quail planted by the Fish & Game department, Pheasants and most quail are pen raised and released so the "hunters" have something to shoot at. Big Challenge.Sure there are no fences but it really isn't "wild hunting" either.So where do you draw the line as to hunting or target shooting at live game?

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from Terrance Mahoney wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Hat's off to you Mr. Pretzal for a very fine blog and forum. Only one I read and re-read. Alway's and enjoyable read. And great to see different view points and ideas discussed in a civil and friendly manner,without the obscenities and name calling so commen on the web. as always hunters and fisherman seem to hold themselves to a little bit higher standard of behaivior and ethics than a lot of groups INMYHOP.

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from Jim wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I have hunted on a 15,000 acre electric fenced Buffalo Ranch in North Central Nebraska on foot, no vehicles are allowed as the bulls are known to tear them up. The owner’s Grandson’s 4 wheeled was tromped until it was not recognizable and Grandson spent a month in the hospital.It was one of the hardest hunts I have ever done! While the herd was over 500 we saw many less. I was hunting with CVA’s new (at the time) Electra Muzzleloader in -12 degree weather with snow flakes and ice around every piece of cover. We found a small herd of 5 (3 bulls and 2 cows), but never were able to get closer than 200 yards. I wanted a 125 yard or less shot on such a big animal. After five failed stocks we ran out of daylight. Second day we hunted until mid afternoon before we found the three bulls in a large meadow. After a long crawl I had a good shot at the herd bull at 80 yards trotting across in front of me at 80 yards. One shot from the Electra pushing a 440 Gr Flat Nose Powerbelt with 150 Gr of Pryodex broke the front shoulder, took off part of the top of the heart and lodged in the off shoulder. The big mount is one of my favorite trophies and I worked dang hard for it. He was estimated to be 15 years old and his teeth were well worn. He was well past his prime, sorta like me.Did the fence help me? The Rancher says “A Bull will only stay in if they are content.” Nothing really keeps them in if they want out. Once you stand beside one you will believe the rancher.Would I hunt some of the small 100 acre and less high fence hunts? No and I have been invited many times. It is not a hunt if you can see all the game from the fence and use a post for a rest. It’s not a hunt if you ride out on the tractor and kill an animal when they come in to feed. It is a hunt, if you are wore slick hunting for your trophy and never see the fence after you enter the ranch. Would I hunt this ranch again? Just as soon as we are out of meat I’ll be working on a trade to get a cow this time so I can have some steaks!Just an ol’ man’s thoughts that traded stuff for the hunt as I could not pay the price, but the meat is much better than from the store.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Jeff,I said 'welcome to the new world'. But I sure didn't mean to imply a better one. At least not as we new it.

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Why is the grass greener on the other side of the fence?That’s where the septic tank is located at!

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from David wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

On the TV show hunts I understand why they whisper as they stalk or sit and wait in a blind,But can someone please tell me why do they whisper after the shot??????

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from David wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

On the TV show hunts I understand why they whisper as they stalk or sit and wait in a blind,But can someone please tell me why do they whisper after the shot??????

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from David wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

To Jeff. I agree with you on Public Hunting. I use to Hunt George Washington National forest in VA. If I camped close to the road where most others did I would always make it a point to get up 1 to 2 hours earlier then the others and hump back up into the woods and find my spot.By the time the other many hunters awoke and headed to the woods they would push the deer my way.Sometimes I would go up into the woods and set up a mini spike camp stay the night and you are right in the middle of the chit.I know hunt Private land but I am glad I cut my teeth on Public land.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I remember the day I shot a huge 10 point (5x5) mulie with a bow on the tallest ridge and ran down into the deepest canyon to die and I thank God I had my Suzuki 250cc 4x4 ATV.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

YohanAbout the espresso, I was tring to be nice

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Now look what you started Dave, you better straighten this mess up again...Right yohan.

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from Jeff wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Very good debate going here. Althogh I have already commented I have to say that I couldn't have said it better than some of you. Phonies, there is no better way to describe it. Someone commented to me that this is the new world. Another said that hunting on public land is a joke due to the high concentration of hunters. Well, I guess that depends on your atitude and drive. I imagine these things happen when you can't seem to hump more than 100 yds from where you parked your big rig. Public land is a beautiful thing and many take it for granted. Growing up in Texas my options were limited. Now stationed in Cali I share all my hunting experience here with others, and I must say, it may be the best yet.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Yes I knew what you ment, I ve got a nice Steven single my wife bought me in 1967. $35.00, still looks like it just came out of the box. I'll send you a pic of it. I always liked Atterbury, been there many time with the National Guard.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

H&R.. Harrington and Richardson 20 ga. my mistake, certainly not Holland and Holland..

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Yeah sarge, I grew up in cornfield USA in Indiana. Camp Atterbury held hunts they advertised and my dad always took me. If nothing else a canned hunt for very large, very slow pheasant was a wonderful way to introduce an eight year old with an H&H single barrel 20 ga. to wingshooting. If I remember correctly you were allowed three birds and if need be you could probably shoot at twenty or more in a half day hunt. Take a child on a hunt like this and he will be hooked for life... especially when the pheasant are beside the turkey on Thanksgiving and you know you brought it home!

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from km wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

To the guy that posted first, the only reason those wolves are going to the cattle is because the farmers are destroying land that natural food sources thrive on. The dont know how to rotate fields so they dont destroy land. Also there is a group that pays farmers for every livestock animal tat is killed by wolves.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Hey yohan, try your compound bow on those carp, lot of fun. you'll have to use a boat, you can't walk on water yet

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Just having a little fun with youguys, hunt behind a fence if you want..just have fun...Yohan, I ain't dropped a drink all nightDr.Ralph, you recon those Eldeers will migrate north. I'm comming down your way in a couple weeks, go visit Pigeon Forge Again.. running out of knives.

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from Dick Mcplenty wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Far too many variables involved in a high fence operation.I've seen one elk ranch in montana,that is high fenced,but consists of 25000 acres.Which is about 21,000 acres larger then most people hunt elk in every year.The ranch was owned by a major german investment banker at one time,who brought out his fellow eurotrash every year.Many of these guys had hunted all over the world and were 10x the hunter that most americans are.They insisted on hunting on foot and would walk from the main ranch house every morning.Their success rate in that fenced in area was about like the average public land hunt about 30% success.And it wasn't from a lack of elk present either.Whitetail deer are the most hunted big game animal in america.The vast majority of your whitetail deer are killed from tree stands. Which is nothing but sitting on your nuts waiting for a deer to wander by,and in a vast amount of cases,the deer is showing up because of food or lure.Just as pathetic as shooting one in a 40acre enclosure. In fact many of your northern states didn't even legalize tree stands up until the late 1960's.When treestands were legalized,the success rate more then tripled in many areas.As for atv's,they get blamed for everything.Back when archery seasons were first implemented and bowhunting wasn't mainstream,you'd hear "Those phuckin bowhunters are ruining everything,they're educating all the animals,before gun season".Now everybody bowhunts,so you have to blame something else like atv's,for your lack of ability to fill tags.The bottom line is more people are on public lands hunting,because private lands aren't as available.Therefore hunting is tougher.Especially when you're hunting areas,that seldom have any game in them to begin with.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Dr.Ralph, was that Atterbury In. If so, been there many times in uniform..Jason B. I'm in eastern Ky. Almost Heaven to all you West Virginia folks... I'm almost as far East as you con go...Carter County. and you???

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from brian wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I can't stand fat wheelers. If you are coming out west to hunt this fall leave your fat wheeler at home, take up jogging/hiking instead.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

The latest news from the TWRA is that the introduction of Elk to Royal Blue WMA has resulted in a hybridization of the Whitetail and Wapiti... it seems an over-sized buck has bred several elk cows and the offspring are thriving. Haven't seen any pictures yet but they're naming the new species the Eldeer.

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from Peter wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

thnx for your comment to me

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from Peter wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

To Yohan,good word.

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from Yohan wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Ok all my Chi town goombodies are here ,. im cookin and they wanna know what the H im doin on some f blog,.. YUK YUKI tell em stayin outta trouble .Clay ,..you are a piece of work ,Like the super dooper scope ,..super dooper mag super dooper coamo ,12 feet of the ground in a tree house ...but behind the guy is ususally not espresso (alothough there could be) .. its wet bar,..with cable tv.and and lord know what else,.Hunting ?? nah thats shootingand i bet they didnt walk to the blind niether no-how ,..

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from Dave Petzal wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

To Ishawooa: As far as I know there are no exotic rats, but otherwise, a terrific idea. Thanks.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Why do I get the feeling that the next topic will be: "Shooting exotic rats in cages from a moving 4-wheeler utilizing a 6.5 x 55 mm without the aid of a rangefinder"?

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from Yohan wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Sarge next time you come at me like that please warn me,. or something ,.. maybe like,..OK Yohan Im gonna get sarcastic hear and make you laugh.So put the coffee down so you blow it up your nose,.Which is what damn near happened,..Thank you ,. for the YUKLike Bubba's 300 mag case necked down to handle phone-o- graph needle ,.. pull the trigger and it whistles for a week? That did cause nasal passaage coffe back-upTruth is I trolled about 10,000 miles on Michigan for kings cohos browns etc,. and im sick of trolling for anything except pretty women.Sold the Salmon Boat and actually now mostly fly fish . steelies blue gills ,.. carp on flyrod lots of fun,..Spawning Bluegill my all time favorite tho.That said I unequivically do not have anything against boats and i do not swim out and float im my back to fish . I dont float in fresh water I sink.Dont have issue with 4 wheeler either ,.used sensibly reponsiblyNone of us is gonna get out of this alive right,.. and we all get older ,..some quicker than others,..and I would hate to curtail anyones hunting or legitimate effort to do so.Take hunting away from me and Im not the same person.I would in my opinion be way less.But lets stay real ,. is all Im saying .To me fair chace is not violasted if a guy who for one legitimate reason or another cant walk ,.. If the law permits use a machine,..Its the abuse that makes me crazy.Case in point,. you shoot a moose you for sure don't drag it out whole ,.you 1/4 it or you get it with a machine,.and you stil need two -three guysBut you dont run moose with a 4 wheeler ,.. right.However always exeption to rule In Norway they run moose with dogs ( Norwegian Elk hounds) and sometinmes if it is not a huge moose (ElG) they get 4-6 guys on ropes and they do drag it out whole.To where thy can get it off the ground on to mini carrier on tracks ( not wheels) tracks to get to trucks.Have great day Sarg

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from Yohan wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Peter ,. normally wouldnt do thisbut you remind me of,.. me ,..a loooong time ago ,. or at least your statement ,.."this is joke".I said exactly that ,. fed up with the way my immediate family friends and cousins went at the hunting.Last minute this,. last minute that,. no real preperation or commitmentTo them it was not important ,.. or they had just given up ,..not sure which .It was however something I lived and breathed for ,.. so I separatd from them ,.. Yup ,..just went my own way all by my self.The amazing part is,.. as soon as I did that i became a hunter who consitantly scored.I bought the gear i needed to cold weather camp in WI( it gets cold there) and I went to the big woods by myself,And on Sunday afternoon when the woods were empty ,. i was still hunting,. and on Monday and on Tuesday,.. usually made it back for thanksgiving ,. but a time or two decided rather stay in the woods. My mother suffered from that for which i am sorry ,. but she did understand.Many of the deer and much of the other game that fell to the gun or bow, over the years was when the wekend warriors went home,. Even the more acssessable areas ( more heavily hinted) are just beautiful when the landscepe does not look like the hunting section in K mart.Sound like too big a commitment ? Maye so ,. but I decided (WAY BACK THEN) unlike any of those i had been hunting with brothers, father, cousins, all,.. I was sick of 1/2 a$$ing it.And so I decided,.. was gonna do it my way,. what ever that would be.Couldnt be worse than what I was doing or more specifically not doing,. and those that I hunted with were not going to change.So I went my own way.Yes,. more commitment in time more money ( although much less money than one would imagine) but the results and quality of the exoperince were 10 times that of the fray of the blaze orange army.Tell ya somehting elseSeems as though that workes in life and busness too.Oh,.. and one other thing ,.. results are apparntly diffuclt to arguie with,.When I showed up with two deer and some smaller stuff for my efforts just before thanksgiving.Instead of no deer for a 1/2 a$$ed effort ,.. the brothers and others decided I was right ,..We did it better after that .Since then I have always listened to anyone whom I though was worth it ,.. but in the endi still do it my way ,.. and it has worked out rather well for me.Good luck and good hunting !!

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from Carney wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Hunting ethics must have a sound foundation.Market hunting in the US just over a century ago nearly wiped out several species of game. It was a tragedy that a profit industry was responsible for the desperate mismanagement of wildlife. Sport hunting is a completely different thing -- it is strictly managed. While we consider wholesale slaughter and decimation of wildlife unethical, sport hunting is not unethical because it is a responsible action within sensible regulations.Now, both of these forms of hunting have one thing in common: the goal is to take advantage of the animal. It seems to me that if your aim is anything other than to take that advantage, you're not really hunting -- you're just out for a walk with a gun.For the life of me, I do not understand why the use of a fence to get the better advantage (or as Dave's article points out, to provide a two directional barrier)is an ethical question at all. We used archery because it gave a better advantage than stone hatchets and spears. We use firearms because they give a greater advantage than archery. We use trail cams and feeders (where legal) for the greater advantage. The same goes for cammo and scent free clothing and on and on the list goes of accessories manufactured and marketed to give us a greater advantage.Some folks, my self included, have declared: "It's all about 'the hunt'"! Yet we are typically happier when after investment of time and money we actually take advantage of an animal and then have something to show for it.Yet, if a hunter was to step out on the back porch and legally shoot a 6X6 elk who's to say it's not ethical simply because there was “no hunt” involved? Heck, I'd consider it a blessing!A question of ethics must have a proper foundation and unfortunately, the logic some hunters use to establish their ethic is on a crash course with itself.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Yohan, you're probably against fishing from a boat, just swim out there and float on your back and fish..No.. This is the first year I used a fourwheeler to hunt(retrieve) a deer. believe me it helps... I don't see how anyone could hunt from one, they can hear you comming for miles here in the hills.

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

YooperJack,I have gone out fishing on Lake Huron with my Father and his friend. His friend owns the boat and the equipment. They go out and fish in some of the big Brown Trout tourniments. There have been days when they did not get a single fish and they have fished the area for years and know all the hot spots. My points is that it is still a crap shoot even for the Chartered fishing excursions.But I like you enjoy fishing from the small waters where the biggest motor on the lake is a 5hp Johnson or evenrude. And a chartered fishing is renting a 12 foot row boat and they hand you a key to unchain the boat and a map to get there. (Sorry just remembering fishing with my dad near Wawa Canada.)ThomasThomas

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from Yohan wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Criminals use guns for the wrong reasons and ill goten gain.Slob hunters use 4 wheelers for the wrong reasons and ill gotten game.A guy like Bubba using a 4 wheeler is apparrely the differece between weather or not he hunts,.. period.So would say this ,.. if your heathy ,.. lazy or not,. use your feet,.. if you weigh so much you cant walk 1/2 mile maybe one shouldnt hunt,.. or maybe one should loose a lot of weight.If you are truly legitimatly limited and IE:crippled handy-capped,.. heart attack / stroke waitig to happen,..IED casualty OR peole past a certain age say 65.The responsibe use of mehanized means to gain access to hunting venue and or retireve a kill is in my humble opionin OKCertain most of us would prefer that eco friendly hourses or mules were used ,..But that is simply not practicle,..As in who keeps a horse for 12 months to use for one or even 4 weeks. Well my former wife might ,.. but that is part the resson why she is former YK YUKIf we observe and pratice ethical reponsible means to hunt ,. most things ( ways and means) are ok,..Bet Danial boone almost never went hunting without his horse or mule or what ever he used.However running deer with a anything that utilized combustion or electric or steam engine should reasult in its operators A$$ summarilly kicked,. said vehichle of what ever flavor confiscated and sold to bennifit the ethical hunterssAs to fences ,.. never hunted an enclosure ,.. but did for a time hunt a section (1 sq mile) and it was an actual square.Buffered by a couple fields it was surrounded by high end resedential dwellings of up to a million dollars .. probaly 850k now yuk yukAt any given time there were 100-150 deer on that property arial surveys proved it ,.. but they ( the deer) knew they were being hunted,.. and they were just as cagey as thier cousins in the big pine country.Ralph ,. longest drag for me was when i ws 18. Shot a big buck ( small rack) whopper body,.. would guess without the guts a little over 200lb,... in tammerac swamp,.. about 1.5 miles from the road. No snow and it was warm,..One tuckered puppy when the sand two track came into view. ( fire lane really) and that was it no more go power ,..had to rest up to walk the 1/2 mile to tell brother an Dad had one down and needed help.

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from Peter wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

To some extent ....hunting today is a joke at least in alot of areas like Michigan..you go to public land and theres a hunter per acre. Or the farm ground around is packed with hunters and all their familys on ever available piece of ground they can stick a blind.Thats not hunting. I sat on opening day in a little spot(waste of time) and heard some shots behind me off in the distance..a herd of deer go running by. They run across the field...i hear more shots . they come back across one deer less. Then I hear more shots they...come running out again..one deer less. Itslike. this is a joke, ill take up target shooting or clay pigeons r some elso thats actual hunting. I know out west..and on huge ranches and in Alaska n places like that its different ..but for the most part...it seems like a joke anyways.

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from David wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Refering to RICEFARM's Post.On the TV show hunts I understand why they whisper as they stalk or sit and wait in a blind,But can someone please tell me why do they whisper after the shot??????The shows are hard enough to follow along because they whisper before the shot why do they whisper after the shot?????

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from FH wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Dave Petzal, thank you for the realistic words about High Fences. Most of the negative coments seem to come from people who have never been to S. Africa or S. Texas for that matter, or seen 10,000 ac or even 1000 acres of S. Texas Brush. I recall the same types of comments from long bow hunters vs. Compound Bow Hunters or Skeet shooters vs Sporting clay shooters etc. I'm sure that when the neaderthals where trying to kill a Mastadon there was someone who thought they should attack from ambush with a spear and someone else who thought they should use a grass fire to run the whole herd off a cliff. I've known peolpe who have hunted S. Texas for years and passed on lots of big deer (160 class) waiting for the Real Monster (180+) to step out. I'd say don't knock it till you've tried it.

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from David wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I have to agree with ISHAWOOA about the use of a range finder. Early on I made a few bad shots that made my stomach turn with the results. As soon as I had the chance I bought one and love it.I also agree since I started using a range finder It has taught me how to judge distant better.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

brian:If your father shot a deer, was dragging it out, and suffered a heart attack, would you feel the same way about ATV's?There is a place for everything. Blamining ATV's for the damage caused by them is akin to blaming guns for the crime rate.YooperJack

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from brian wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph,I agree with your stance on four wheelers, trail cams, feeders and the like. I have alot more respect when an animal is taken with skill over technology.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Jhdo5 quote: these birds were turned out in the wild days before we hunted and flew as hard and fast and were just as skiddish as any "wild" bird i have hunted. Regardless of whether they were raised in a pen or in the wild, once they have been there for a couple of days, they are WILD.How did the preserve keep the birds in the assigned hunting area? The preserve I went to had assigned hunting areas, released the birds and let the hunters in. How did the preserve you went to operate?Jim

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from jhd05 wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I have hunted wild birds on many occasions, but on 2 occasions I have hunted game bird Preserves, these birds were turned out in the wild days before we hunted and flew as hard and fast and were just as skiddish as any "wild" bird i have hunted. Regardless of whether they were raised in a pen or in the wild, once they have been there for a couple of days, they are WILD.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I'm not a fan of game farms for bird hunting. I did it one time (here in Indiana) and the birds had to practically be kicked to fly.It didn't feel like hunting, it was very expensive and I felt like I was doing something wrong the entire time I was there.It's not for me, but it's legal and I know people who enjoy going. I just didn't.Jim

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

We used to go to the Army base Atterbury I think it was and shoot pheasant they had just released. Sure were fat and slow but tasted the same... it didn't really bother me but it wasn't really hunting because you knew they were there and there were way more per acre than in the wild. Beats picking up a chicken at Kroger, just don't confuse it with hunting.

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from Evan! wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

fences are for livestock.yrs-Evan!

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from JasonB wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Sarg,I'm a KY boy too. What part of our fine state do you occupy?To everyone else,What do you all think about upland hunting where the birds are placed in the field prior to the hunt? I only know of a few farms with quail on them, and while those farmers would give you the shirt off their backs, they won't let you hunt their quail. If you want to shoot quail, around here, you pretty much have to pay to do it. And none of the local bird hunting preserves are large enough to sustain a wild population, so the birds are placed. I'm not proud of it, but I'd rather hunt placed birds than none at all.JasonB

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Might start down around Dr.Ralph's or RockyMtn Hunter's home town..and go across the country. Could take a southern Route along the Rio Grande and serve two purposes..

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

atmiller:I am reluctant to criticize anyone else's recreation. Some people get out and enjoy the great outdoors by playing golf. I don't, but that's their cup of tea. Others spend many $$$ on fishing boats with electronic fish finders, downriggers,etc. I fish from a canoe. I don't judge those fishermen.There is some recreational value in game farms. I don't do it, but I see where someone else might have to. If large enough, and properly run, they could duplicate actual hunting conditions. Also, please see my "brain fart" above. I believe that these farms could go a long way towards preservation of endangered species, if given that mandate.YooperJack

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Wouldn't it be something to see a high fence running through the Rockies like the Great Wall of China? Extending to Alaska up past Clay's stomping grounds.. Think about it... No offence Dave

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from Matt in MN wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

To Jack Ryan - I couldn't have said it better myself.Taking a wise old doe on heavily hunted public land is WAY more of a trophy than some clown shooting behind a high fence.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Do the animals wear cow bells in the "high fence area"? I think there should be a double fence with the animals running between, like some of the large horse farms here in Ky...(just kidding)

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from atmiller wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

YooperJack, your comparison is flawed. If the fishing guide was to take you to the aquarium at Bass Pro Shop to fish, then that would be a fair comparison.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I watch the sportsman channel all the time and it strikes me funny to watch those Texas hunts to see those Big Game hunters with a 300 Super Dooper Ultimate Magnum rifle with a Super Dooper Scope and wearing Super Dooper Camo suit in a deer house 12 feet off the ground! I wonder why the camera man never points the camera behind the shooter? I wonder if it’s because there is an espresso coffee maker and a TV tuned to ESPN behind him and perhaps a hot tub?!?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I can see the use of high fences in Africa due to the commercialization of poaching. But in the US, hunting deer in a high fence like Texas and you shoot a monster of a buck? You might as well have shot a yearling doe so don’t come bragging to me! You might as well this turkey season go by Wal-Mart and pick up a Butter Ball Turkey on the way back from the sports bar opening day!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

There was an actual study done, where 4 hunters where turn loose in a high fence hunt that was 1/4 mile square. They hunted for a week and didn’t see anything. There was several deer turned loose into the fenced in area and before the hunt started, simulated hunting pressure was put onto the deer to teach them to avoid hunters. Then the 4 hunters hunted for a week and no deer was shot or even spotted! At Ft. Chaffee Arkansas, one of the best deer hunting places I know of, deer actually look up into trees looking for hunters, so go figure!

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from as moeggs wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Sorry Dave, I thought more of you prior to this post.

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from Jack Ryan wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

"game animals are becoming extremely valuable, so a high fence makes sense because it keeps them from wandering off, and it keeps non-paying personnel from wandering in and poaching your critters."You are confusing game animals with farm livestock. When they can't "wander off" to avoid getting shot then you aren't hunting any more. You are shooting live stock. When they cross over from being wild animals to being "your critters" they aren't wild any more and you aren't hunting. It may be close enough to hunting to suit you but it's not hunting. You know they are in there, they "belong" to you, they can't "wander off". Plain and simple, it's not hunting.It's rick pretenders slaughtering farm animals, pretending to be hunters, they don't like being told they are a pack of phonies and that is the only reason it keeps coming up. They know the truth and need the constant back slapping of their fellow phonies to ward off thier own guilty conscience.

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from Bernie Kuntz wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

High fences are indeed a touchy subject, and one writer had it spot-on--there is a big difference in whether the area fenced is 100 acres or 10,000.I hunted in South Africa only one time on four different properties, and two of them had high fences. However, the land inside the fences encompassed several square miles of brushy, rocky country. (This was in the Limpopo country just south of the Botswana border.) On the first day of hunting I shot a good impala, then saw a very good kudu bull climbing up a brushy, rocky hill. The sun was in my eyes and scope and no matter what I did, I could not get a shot. Same day I saw a big eland bull running behind a wall of brush eight feet high. All I could see was its horns. Also saw a very good nyala but no opportunity for a shot. I hunted the property with a white hunter for three or four more days and never could get a shot at any of these animals. Also saw a nyala run through a high fence like it wasn't there. Had a hell of a time getting a gemsbok, although I saw them every day. High fences but large land area. Finally shot one 38-1/2" on the tenth and last day of my hunt.Hope I can go back one day for the kudu and nyala.

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from Matt wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Blaming ATV's for peoples actions is like blaming the guns for gun violence and crimes.... you can't blame objects for the way SOME people use them because chances are most people use them correctly.

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from Matt wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Blaming ATV's for peoples actions is like blaming the guns for gun violence and crimes.... you can't blame objects for the way SOME people use them because chances are most people use them correctly.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Jeff,Welcome to the new world.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

While I don't do game farms, what's the difference in going to a game farm to hunt, and hiring a charter boat to take you fishing? I never read about that industry being criticized. Yet, you are taken out, the mate gives you a rod, baits the hook, and you catch a fish. What's the difference?YooperJack

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from Jeff wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I think it's sad that one of our days most heralded shooting and hunting editors is using terms like "keeps them from wandering off" and "poaching your critters" while referring to something such as a high fence. I most often agree with you Dave but what happened to the the wild experience and the creatures we hunt being a beautiful natural resource available to us all. Than again, I never could find much respect for the stereotypical African hunt as it was.

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

A number of years ago Dow Chemical put up high fencing around their property. In the process they fenced in a lot of deer. This was a good thing and bad at the same time. It was good because the upper management would be assured of a deer a year if they got lazy. And bad in the fact that they were now responsible for over 500 deer and would have to feed them in the winter when there was no food to eat and over populated. Dow put up a viewing are and parking lot for people to go out there and watch and feed the deer. The problem with that is that they become tame and come to rely on people to bring them food. I have been told that some of the management have their deer picked out 8 months or more in advance and all they have to do is go out with a pickup and a gun shoot the deer and drive up to it. I have mixed feelings on that because I know that thinning out the herd is necessary but I feel that they should hunt them as you and I do. And not hunt from a pickup truck. And that a portion of the meat go to feeding the needy. I guess I view hunting a tame deer from less then 100 yards on flat ground takes the fun out of it.Thomas

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Dave Petzal:A while back we had quite adiscussion about the horrible condition of zoo animals (specifically Tatiana).While I would be loathe to pay money to hunt inside a fence, I can see where these fenced hunting preserves, especially the size you describe, could be invaluable in preserving endangered species in their native habitat. I recently saw or read something about Snow Leopards. I believe that there is less than 400 in the wild. While that's an Asian problem, not African, if a fenced hunting preserve could be located in that area, thespecies could be saved. The cost of this endeavor would be borne by sportsmen hunting other, more plentiful species, found within that large enclosure. If one of the goals of that establishment were to preserve the endangered species, I could be see myself booking a hunt there.YooperJack

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from Steve C wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

No different that any number of other hunting topic: where do you draw the line?Our ethics erode in direct relation to whether it adversely effects us personally or not.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Since I don't have to deal with the fence issue unless I hunt far from home I suppose I can't give much insight to this topic. The 4 wheeler use to hunt animals is no different than speeding along in their pickup or jeep to run the game animals down. I have seen people employ all of the above conveyances to get their antelope. It is illegal in Wyoming to hunt from any mechanized vehile but it is still done if the warden is not around. I prefer horses because I am basically lazy and don't like to hike. The wilderness regs state only horses, mules, llamas, or by foot to hunt. This makes it nice and quiet. I perfectly understand if someone is handicapped and must have a 4 wheeler to hunt. Most states make allowances for this unfortunate situation.Dr. Ralph I will have to diagree with you on the use of rangefinders. This device has probably caused more clean kills and less wounding of game animals in the west since the invention of a flat shooting rifle and scope. It is amazing how poorly even locals can judge range. The rangefinder will make a lier out of most folks. Additionally the constant use of this device eventually teaches you how to more accurately estimate distance in the big wide open spaces. Yes you can use your scope and most work quite well as rangefinders. I realize that this is not such a big deal in the beautiful forested hills of Tennessee (another place that I hold dear to my heart, not just the hills but also the people and the whiskey).

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

HHH quote:I guess those with the resourses are for it, and those without are left out.John quote:All it tells me about them is they have money to burn, not how good of a hunter they are.Money is the future of hunting. Look @ how much cash people are willing to hand over for hunts, guns, scopes, atv, scouting cameras, out of state tags, etc...It's not going to change and the days of knocking @ the farmers door and gaining access are coming to a close. When something has value (real or perceived) people usually won't give it away.I don't really like it either, but I sure don't see it changing.Jim

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from Scott Mahl wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I am afraid that I am stratling the fence on this one.(pun intended)I received all kinds of grief from an archery club because I hunted wild boar with my longbow in a huge enclosed area in TN, even though it had more acres than all of the public land we have in Northern IN. I have read from many outdoor writers that squeal with delight about the high fence hunting in Africa but then condemn the high fence hunting here in the states. That is a bit of hypocrisy isn't it? Anyway, while I do have issue with the smaller fenced properties I guess I would rather see some of the high fenced hunting areas than the subdivisions which are eating up most of our available land.

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from John wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I have more respect for someone who goes out on unfenced ground and gets a rabbit, spike buck, wood duck whatever than someone who goes on a canned "hunt" with a PH, a .338 and gets a B&C whitetail.All it tells me about them is they have money to burn, not how good of a hunter they are.

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from ricefarm wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

This has been a few years ago but I was watching a hunting show where the hunted was buffalo, somewhere in the northern plains of the US. A guide and a hunter with a high powered rifle (as well as a camera crew) were stalking the animals as if the slightest sound would spook them, crawling, whispering, etc. When the shooter dropped one of the bison, two things became evident. One was this small herd wasn't too concerned about humans because the sound of the shot didn't even raise their heads, and two, there was a fence in the background immeditately behind the herd. I couldn't believe that this was considered hunting but worse, IT WAS ON TV! We have to be careful how these things are handled and presented or they can be used as ammo by the anti-hunting crowd. Non hunters generally want to believe the worst, so there is no point in us feeding it to them.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph,I have the same tendency that you do, lumping all things in one category! Were it not for a 4-wheeler, my hunting would be much more limited! I can walk, just not long distances. Anything over about 100 yards and I'm wishing I had stayed at home! KILL a deer that far from a road and I have a REAL problem! Have to track a deer? If he runs beyond out of sight, I might as well pack a skillet and eat him where he fell! I'd never get him/her packed out. I can't carry over 20 lbs!I find a spot, set up my blind, drive to within 30/50 yards and hunt! So far, I've been able to drive right up to everything I've killed except one. She ran up under a black locust and I had to drag her about 10 yards! Ouch!I attempt to use my 4-wheeler responsibly and in a sporting manner!BUT, you are right!Bubba

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from HHH wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I've been on both sides of the fence. I hunted once with a gun who had 100 acres, high fenced on 3 sides of his property by his neighbor. I asked the guy if he was mad at his neighbor for high fencing around his property? His answer suprised me, he said "Heck no, if I had the money I'd have done the same thing." I guess those with the resourses are for it, and those without are left out.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I drag my deer out and the land is straight up and down, but that is not what I was talking about... in rural Tennessee there is a new found love for cruising the woods in the middle of the night on an ATV with a loaded weapon. It makes me sick but THAT is what people are using these vehicles for and it is far worse than hunting 10,000 acres with a fence around it....

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from Chris H. wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

So Dr. Ralph, you have a problem with my using a four-wheeler to go pick up a deer I killed and bring it back to the truck. That is the only time I use a four-wheeler when hunting. Would it be ok if I used a horse to make getting the deer out easier but not a four-wheeler? Please explain. Hunting today is exponentially easier than it was in the past. I would be impressed if you have not taken advantage of any modern conveniences that make it easier.

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from SL wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Sure, everyone who hunts inside a fence will try to justify it. I realize that 10,000 acres is a lot of land, but the animals ARE in an enclosure no matter how you slice it. Game animals are no longer truly wild, but behind fences like cattle. I know it's big money that is driving all this these days, but the 10,000 acre fields will eventually become 1000 acres, then 500 acres and so on. I am sure someone will still try to justify it and try to call it hunting even then!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

White tailed deer home ranges vary from around 200 to 2,000 acres according to multiple studies and depending mostly upon food availability. The average deer lives on less than 1 square mile which is 640 acres. I really don't have a problem with enclosed hunting areas or high fences as long as you're talking a couple of thousand acres minimum... definitely keeps out the poachers. I do have a problem with trail cams, four wheelers, feeders and range finders. If you're using them you're really not hunting by my way of thinking. It's not supposed to be easy!

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

While I'm not a fan of high fence hunting, I guess part of it depends on how many acres are fenced.If it's 10,000 acres, that's obviously different than it being a 100 acres.Money is changing hunting in many ways and for many the changes aren't going to be positive.Jim

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from D E Curtiss wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

PROBABLY A (GOOD) REALITY CHECK, BUT STILL DOES NOT SIT JUST RIGHT. DO SERIOUSLY ENJOY YOUR OBSERVATIONS.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Conversely why is shot placement, premium bullets, and magnum rifles (complete with lots of practice) so popular among those of us who hunt around Yellowstone Park? The main reason is that if an animal is legally shot outside the Park and runs across the imaginary line into the Park you cannot pursue and bring him back out of the federal land onto state or private land. He is wolf and grizzley grub. I prefer to hunt away from the boundary and to use enough gun that the critter hits the ground immediately. Here is one place where fences would be good in that the feds would have kept their damn fawn and calf eating wolves in the Park and not outside of it as well. If you guys ever hunt around YNP be careful as it is patrolled from the air and they take their job very seriously. As of the delisting of the gray wolf last Friday things might change to some degree in NW Wyoming.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Get use to it, high fencing is coming at an alarming rate. I own a small farm less than 100 acres and my Son and I spend about 8-900 bucks plus many hrs with tractor to plan food plots for the wild game.Birds, rabitts, squirrels, turkeys, w-tails. Our property is off the beaten path but that does not stop the road hunters, poachers, Idiots from killing game on our property. We found 8 bucks last week, only the horns missing. I saw while hunting 4 deer in one pile, one a buck with his horns sawed off. Only meat taken was one side of back straps. I'd give a lot to know who did this. If was in a position I would fence it all or buy a couple of guard dogs. Some of the guys who hunt live as far as 50-75 miles away,as word has spread we go 2 Albinos on the property.I've decided to complete my ground blind or do a few minor improvements to the old farm house and spend a few nights there to catch these guys. HAve called the game Warden and he;s doing all he can, but they give him the slip. If i catch these guy, trouble is brewing. Someone suggested to shoot all 4 tires a couple times and let these guys walk 10 miles to a tire center for replacements. Shooting over therir heads does no good, as have done so, they return the fire. Have made up my mind, not going to continue to allow this period. Will take what-ever measures to stop it. I hunt out West each fall, and i pay dearly to hunt and never hunted with-out permission or either a guided hunt.So the fenceing is not all the landownere fault, it's the Damn poachers and the unwelcomed guys who are killing the prime animals.About 5-6 guys are willing to help me out this fall, as we plan to patrol the area afer dark and put a stop to it. Also, it's not just my property they hunting, its the joining owners as well,who live away and did not know this was happening. THey gave me permission to do what-ever was requied to stop it,and i shall. So next fall if not on the Blog,you will know I am in jail, shot or died.Any way, sometimes fencing are required to stop the un-wanties. Brings to mind a tip to oorado back in 93,we had maps and knew the BLM boundries. A few Outfitters posted the right of way into the BLM as private property. When you thousands of miles from home, its kinda hard to know where the BLM is. O well, not going back to Co. as winter kill has killed in excess of 50% of Deer and many Elk. Check DOW in Co. to get a report on this matter.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

What the hell lets buy a ranch, install miniature trains like they transport people at the zoo and recreate the buffalo slaughter of the 1800's.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

What the hell, I'm opening a game farm where you pick out any animal you want from his stall and we release him on one of those Motocross tracks... you get a Suzuki Quadrunner and a Ruger Super Redhawk and let the games begin! We could even make it a timed event. The television rights alone will make me millions, and then a feature film starring Johnny Knoxville and a Grizzly.

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from JasonB wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Sarg,We may have talked before, I don't remember for sure.Thanks for the info on the Harrodsburg Tankers. I'm not familiar with their history. Hopefully, I can get down there for it and talk my kids into going as well.

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from Shaky wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Jeff; enjoy it, sonny, it won't last long.

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from Jeff wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Jim in Mo, I'm 21. Ha, thought that may cheer you up.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Jason, I believe I've talked with you here before., If you are going to be around Harrodsburg on April 26 2008, there will be a big thing going on all day about the Harrodsburg Tankers. Kentucky National Guard, 192 Light Tank Battallion, They were sent to the Phillipieans during WWII and when their Commander surrendered the Troops to Japan, they experienced the Batton Death March with on 38 surviving. I may run down, I know some people in Harrodsburg anyway.. The Gov. sent me an invite.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Jeff,The stuff we're talking about now made me think how years ago as a child my brother and I would giggle when grandpa would start talking about 'the good old days'. The stuff we're saying now is the same thing except I truely believe my grandpa's generation was closer to my generation than my generation is to my 17yr. old son and definately more than my (hopefully) grandchildren..

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from Jeff wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

To Jim in MO. I know things are changing but I hate to accept going down without a fight. As with anything in life, if someting is good than by all means, defend it. You know the old sang, "if it aint broke..."

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Terrance MahoneyO’Brother , where were you on the June 08, 2007“The Great Crossbow Debate”? http://fieldandstream.blogs.com/gunnut/2007/06/the_great_cross.htmlThe Howler Monkeys and the Moon Children where all out on this one. Doing there darndest to say how evil CBs are. Then we have a Muzzle loader with electronic ignition and didn’t get all the hate and discontent as the CBs did.Del in KS saysGo with a flinter when the experience is more important than the kill.My hat is off to you Sir and a fine Sportsman to boot!!

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I am still opposed in principle to hunts on "enclosed lands," because I feel that the principle of "fair chase" is compromised if the game animals are "captives." I also don't like the idea of running around the woods in ATVs unless you are "physically challenged." And I have a problem with shooting deer right beside deer feeders. Hunting today is focused upon convenience for the hunter and increasing his chances for success through "canned hunts" and the like. It kind of reminds me of a small zoo near my hometown. There was a 12-point buck in that zoo. One night, some "hunter" broke into the zoo, shot the buck and dragged him away. That "hunter" was not too far from the ilk of some "hunters" that we have today. Yes, I've been driven to deer stands on a game preserve but I will never do it again. When hunting is reduced to the equivalent of picking out the lobster you want at a seafood restaurant, I'll quit. Going to Red Lobster and ordering a meal is not "fishing," and going on canned hunts is not "hunting." If you're not willing to meet your game on a more-or-less equal footing, it's not hunting that you are engaged in--it may be shooting, but it's not hunting.

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from JasonB wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Sarg-I know some folks from Carter Co. That's some pretty country over there. I'm about an hour south of Louisville in Hardin County, near Ft. Knox.

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from Zermoid wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Well after many years of hunting in NJ the difference between a high fence hunt and wild hunting is even more blurred for me, sure the deer were wild, and hard to find, but on so little ground it might as well be fenced! Other than the Pine Barrens there is no large expanse of woods (if you want to call miles of 4-8 foot pines woods) in NJ.And upland game? Pheasants and Quail planted by the Fish & Game department, Pheasants and most quail are pen raised and released so the "hunters" have something to shoot at. Big Challenge.Sure there are no fences but it really isn't "wild hunting" either.So where do you draw the line as to hunting or target shooting at live game?

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from Terrance Mahoney wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Hat's off to you Mr. Pretzal for a very fine blog and forum. Only one I read and re-read. Alway's and enjoyable read. And great to see different view points and ideas discussed in a civil and friendly manner,without the obscenities and name calling so commen on the web. as always hunters and fisherman seem to hold themselves to a little bit higher standard of behaivior and ethics than a lot of groups INMYHOP.

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from Jim wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I have hunted on a 15,000 acre electric fenced Buffalo Ranch in North Central Nebraska on foot, no vehicles are allowed as the bulls are known to tear them up. The owner’s Grandson’s 4 wheeled was tromped until it was not recognizable and Grandson spent a month in the hospital.It was one of the hardest hunts I have ever done! While the herd was over 500 we saw many less. I was hunting with CVA’s new (at the time) Electra Muzzleloader in -12 degree weather with snow flakes and ice around every piece of cover. We found a small herd of 5 (3 bulls and 2 cows), but never were able to get closer than 200 yards. I wanted a 125 yard or less shot on such a big animal. After five failed stocks we ran out of daylight. Second day we hunted until mid afternoon before we found the three bulls in a large meadow. After a long crawl I had a good shot at the herd bull at 80 yards trotting across in front of me at 80 yards. One shot from the Electra pushing a 440 Gr Flat Nose Powerbelt with 150 Gr of Pryodex broke the front shoulder, took off part of the top of the heart and lodged in the off shoulder. The big mount is one of my favorite trophies and I worked dang hard for it. He was estimated to be 15 years old and his teeth were well worn. He was well past his prime, sorta like me.Did the fence help me? The Rancher says “A Bull will only stay in if they are content.” Nothing really keeps them in if they want out. Once you stand beside one you will believe the rancher.Would I hunt some of the small 100 acre and less high fence hunts? No and I have been invited many times. It is not a hunt if you can see all the game from the fence and use a post for a rest. It’s not a hunt if you ride out on the tractor and kill an animal when they come in to feed. It is a hunt, if you are wore slick hunting for your trophy and never see the fence after you enter the ranch. Would I hunt this ranch again? Just as soon as we are out of meat I’ll be working on a trade to get a cow this time so I can have some steaks!Just an ol’ man’s thoughts that traded stuff for the hunt as I could not pay the price, but the meat is much better than from the store.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Jeff,I said 'welcome to the new world'. But I sure didn't mean to imply a better one. At least not as we new it.

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Why is the grass greener on the other side of the fence?That’s where the septic tank is located at!

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from David wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

On the TV show hunts I understand why they whisper as they stalk or sit and wait in a blind,But can someone please tell me why do they whisper after the shot??????

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from David wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

On the TV show hunts I understand why they whisper as they stalk or sit and wait in a blind,But can someone please tell me why do they whisper after the shot??????

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from David wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

To Jeff. I agree with you on Public Hunting. I use to Hunt George Washington National forest in VA. If I camped close to the road where most others did I would always make it a point to get up 1 to 2 hours earlier then the others and hump back up into the woods and find my spot.By the time the other many hunters awoke and headed to the woods they would push the deer my way.Sometimes I would go up into the woods and set up a mini spike camp stay the night and you are right in the middle of the chit.I know hunt Private land but I am glad I cut my teeth on Public land.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I remember the day I shot a huge 10 point (5x5) mulie with a bow on the tallest ridge and ran down into the deepest canyon to die and I thank God I had my Suzuki 250cc 4x4 ATV.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

YohanAbout the espresso, I was tring to be nice

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Now look what you started Dave, you better straighten this mess up again...Right yohan.

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from Jeff wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Very good debate going here. Althogh I have already commented I have to say that I couldn't have said it better than some of you. Phonies, there is no better way to describe it. Someone commented to me that this is the new world. Another said that hunting on public land is a joke due to the high concentration of hunters. Well, I guess that depends on your atitude and drive. I imagine these things happen when you can't seem to hump more than 100 yds from where you parked your big rig. Public land is a beautiful thing and many take it for granted. Growing up in Texas my options were limited. Now stationed in Cali I share all my hunting experience here with others, and I must say, it may be the best yet.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Yes I knew what you ment, I ve got a nice Steven single my wife bought me in 1967. $35.00, still looks like it just came out of the box. I'll send you a pic of it. I always liked Atterbury, been there many time with the National Guard.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

H&R.. Harrington and Richardson 20 ga. my mistake, certainly not Holland and Holland..

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Yeah sarge, I grew up in cornfield USA in Indiana. Camp Atterbury held hunts they advertised and my dad always took me. If nothing else a canned hunt for very large, very slow pheasant was a wonderful way to introduce an eight year old with an H&H single barrel 20 ga. to wingshooting. If I remember correctly you were allowed three birds and if need be you could probably shoot at twenty or more in a half day hunt. Take a child on a hunt like this and he will be hooked for life... especially when the pheasant are beside the turkey on Thanksgiving and you know you brought it home!

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from km wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

To the guy that posted first, the only reason those wolves are going to the cattle is because the farmers are destroying land that natural food sources thrive on. The dont know how to rotate fields so they dont destroy land. Also there is a group that pays farmers for every livestock animal tat is killed by wolves.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Hey yohan, try your compound bow on those carp, lot of fun. you'll have to use a boat, you can't walk on water yet

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Just having a little fun with youguys, hunt behind a fence if you want..just have fun...Yohan, I ain't dropped a drink all nightDr.Ralph, you recon those Eldeers will migrate north. I'm comming down your way in a couple weeks, go visit Pigeon Forge Again.. running out of knives.

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from Dick Mcplenty wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Far too many variables involved in a high fence operation.I've seen one elk ranch in montana,that is high fenced,but consists of 25000 acres.Which is about 21,000 acres larger then most people hunt elk in every year.The ranch was owned by a major german investment banker at one time,who brought out his fellow eurotrash every year.Many of these guys had hunted all over the world and were 10x the hunter that most americans are.They insisted on hunting on foot and would walk from the main ranch house every morning.Their success rate in that fenced in area was about like the average public land hunt about 30% success.And it wasn't from a lack of elk present either.Whitetail deer are the most hunted big game animal in america.The vast majority of your whitetail deer are killed from tree stands. Which is nothing but sitting on your nuts waiting for a deer to wander by,and in a vast amount of cases,the deer is showing up because of food or lure.Just as pathetic as shooting one in a 40acre enclosure. In fact many of your northern states didn't even legalize tree stands up until the late 1960's.When treestands were legalized,the success rate more then tripled in many areas.As for atv's,they get blamed for everything.Back when archery seasons were first implemented and bowhunting wasn't mainstream,you'd hear "Those phuckin bowhunters are ruining everything,they're educating all the animals,before gun season".Now everybody bowhunts,so you have to blame something else like atv's,for your lack of ability to fill tags.The bottom line is more people are on public lands hunting,because private lands aren't as available.Therefore hunting is tougher.Especially when you're hunting areas,that seldom have any game in them to begin with.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Dr.Ralph, was that Atterbury In. If so, been there many times in uniform..Jason B. I'm in eastern Ky. Almost Heaven to all you West Virginia folks... I'm almost as far East as you con go...Carter County. and you???

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from brian wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I can't stand fat wheelers. If you are coming out west to hunt this fall leave your fat wheeler at home, take up jogging/hiking instead.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

The latest news from the TWRA is that the introduction of Elk to Royal Blue WMA has resulted in a hybridization of the Whitetail and Wapiti... it seems an over-sized buck has bred several elk cows and the offspring are thriving. Haven't seen any pictures yet but they're naming the new species the Eldeer.

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from Peter wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

thnx for your comment to me

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from Peter wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

To Yohan,good word.

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from Yohan wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Ok all my Chi town goombodies are here ,. im cookin and they wanna know what the H im doin on some f blog,.. YUK YUKI tell em stayin outta trouble .Clay ,..you are a piece of work ,Like the super dooper scope ,..super dooper mag super dooper coamo ,12 feet of the ground in a tree house ...but behind the guy is ususally not espresso (alothough there could be) .. its wet bar,..with cable tv.and and lord know what else,.Hunting ?? nah thats shootingand i bet they didnt walk to the blind niether no-how ,..

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from Dave Petzal wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

To Ishawooa: As far as I know there are no exotic rats, but otherwise, a terrific idea. Thanks.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Why do I get the feeling that the next topic will be: "Shooting exotic rats in cages from a moving 4-wheeler utilizing a 6.5 x 55 mm without the aid of a rangefinder"?

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from Yohan wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Sarge next time you come at me like that please warn me,. or something ,.. maybe like,..OK Yohan Im gonna get sarcastic hear and make you laugh.So put the coffee down so you blow it up your nose,.Which is what damn near happened,..Thank you ,. for the YUKLike Bubba's 300 mag case necked down to handle phone-o- graph needle ,.. pull the trigger and it whistles for a week? That did cause nasal passaage coffe back-upTruth is I trolled about 10,000 miles on Michigan for kings cohos browns etc,. and im sick of trolling for anything except pretty women.Sold the Salmon Boat and actually now mostly fly fish . steelies blue gills ,.. carp on flyrod lots of fun,..Spawning Bluegill my all time favorite tho.That said I unequivically do not have anything against boats and i do not swim out and float im my back to fish . I dont float in fresh water I sink.Dont have issue with 4 wheeler either ,.used sensibly reponsiblyNone of us is gonna get out of this alive right,.. and we all get older ,..some quicker than others,..and I would hate to curtail anyones hunting or legitimate effort to do so.Take hunting away from me and Im not the same person.I would in my opinion be way less.But lets stay real ,. is all Im saying .To me fair chace is not violasted if a guy who for one legitimate reason or another cant walk ,.. If the law permits use a machine,..Its the abuse that makes me crazy.Case in point,. you shoot a moose you for sure don't drag it out whole ,.you 1/4 it or you get it with a machine,.and you stil need two -three guysBut you dont run moose with a 4 wheeler ,.. right.However always exeption to rule In Norway they run moose with dogs ( Norwegian Elk hounds) and sometinmes if it is not a huge moose (ElG) they get 4-6 guys on ropes and they do drag it out whole.To where thy can get it off the ground on to mini carrier on tracks ( not wheels) tracks to get to trucks.Have great day Sarg

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from Yohan wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Peter ,. normally wouldnt do thisbut you remind me of,.. me ,..a loooong time ago ,. or at least your statement ,.."this is joke".I said exactly that ,. fed up with the way my immediate family friends and cousins went at the hunting.Last minute this,. last minute that,. no real preperation or commitmentTo them it was not important ,.. or they had just given up ,..not sure which .It was however something I lived and breathed for ,.. so I separatd from them ,.. Yup ,..just went my own way all by my self.The amazing part is,.. as soon as I did that i became a hunter who consitantly scored.I bought the gear i needed to cold weather camp in WI( it gets cold there) and I went to the big woods by myself,And on Sunday afternoon when the woods were empty ,. i was still hunting,. and on Monday and on Tuesday,.. usually made it back for thanksgiving ,. but a time or two decided rather stay in the woods. My mother suffered from that for which i am sorry ,. but she did understand.Many of the deer and much of the other game that fell to the gun or bow, over the years was when the wekend warriors went home,. Even the more acssessable areas ( more heavily hinted) are just beautiful when the landscepe does not look like the hunting section in K mart.Sound like too big a commitment ? Maye so ,. but I decided (WAY BACK THEN) unlike any of those i had been hunting with brothers, father, cousins, all,.. I was sick of 1/2 a$$ing it.And so I decided,.. was gonna do it my way,. what ever that would be.Couldnt be worse than what I was doing or more specifically not doing,. and those that I hunted with were not going to change.So I went my own way.Yes,. more commitment in time more money ( although much less money than one would imagine) but the results and quality of the exoperince were 10 times that of the fray of the blaze orange army.Tell ya somehting elseSeems as though that workes in life and busness too.Oh,.. and one other thing ,.. results are apparntly diffuclt to arguie with,.When I showed up with two deer and some smaller stuff for my efforts just before thanksgiving.Instead of no deer for a 1/2 a$$ed effort ,.. the brothers and others decided I was right ,..We did it better after that .Since then I have always listened to anyone whom I though was worth it ,.. but in the endi still do it my way ,.. and it has worked out rather well for me.Good luck and good hunting !!

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from Carney wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Hunting ethics must have a sound foundation.Market hunting in the US just over a century ago nearly wiped out several species of game. It was a tragedy that a profit industry was responsible for the desperate mismanagement of wildlife. Sport hunting is a completely different thing -- it is strictly managed. While we consider wholesale slaughter and decimation of wildlife unethical, sport hunting is not unethical because it is a responsible action within sensible regulations.Now, both of these forms of hunting have one thing in common: the goal is to take advantage of the animal. It seems to me that if your aim is anything other than to take that advantage, you're not really hunting -- you're just out for a walk with a gun.For the life of me, I do not understand why the use of a fence to get the better advantage (or as Dave's article points out, to provide a two directional barrier)is an ethical question at all. We used archery because it gave a better advantage than stone hatchets and spears. We use firearms because they give a greater advantage than archery. We use trail cams and feeders (where legal) for the greater advantage. The same goes for cammo and scent free clothing and on and on the list goes of accessories manufactured and marketed to give us a greater advantage.Some folks, my self included, have declared: "It's all about 'the hunt'"! Yet we are typically happier when after investment of time and money we actually take advantage of an animal and then have something to show for it.Yet, if a hunter was to step out on the back porch and legally shoot a 6X6 elk who's to say it's not ethical simply because there was “no hunt” involved? Heck, I'd consider it a blessing!A question of ethics must have a proper foundation and unfortunately, the logic some hunters use to establish their ethic is on a crash course with itself.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Yohan, you're probably against fishing from a boat, just swim out there and float on your back and fish..No.. This is the first year I used a fourwheeler to hunt(retrieve) a deer. believe me it helps... I don't see how anyone could hunt from one, they can hear you comming for miles here in the hills.

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

YooperJack,I have gone out fishing on Lake Huron with my Father and his friend. His friend owns the boat and the equipment. They go out and fish in some of the big Brown Trout tourniments. There have been days when they did not get a single fish and they have fished the area for years and know all the hot spots. My points is that it is still a crap shoot even for the Chartered fishing excursions.But I like you enjoy fishing from the small waters where the biggest motor on the lake is a 5hp Johnson or evenrude. And a chartered fishing is renting a 12 foot row boat and they hand you a key to unchain the boat and a map to get there. (Sorry just remembering fishing with my dad near Wawa Canada.)ThomasThomas

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from Yohan wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Criminals use guns for the wrong reasons and ill goten gain.Slob hunters use 4 wheelers for the wrong reasons and ill gotten game.A guy like Bubba using a 4 wheeler is apparrely the differece between weather or not he hunts,.. period.So would say this ,.. if your heathy ,.. lazy or not,. use your feet,.. if you weigh so much you cant walk 1/2 mile maybe one shouldnt hunt,.. or maybe one should loose a lot of weight.If you are truly legitimatly limited and IE:crippled handy-capped,.. heart attack / stroke waitig to happen,..IED casualty OR peole past a certain age say 65.The responsibe use of mehanized means to gain access to hunting venue and or retireve a kill is in my humble opionin OKCertain most of us would prefer that eco friendly hourses or mules were used ,..But that is simply not practicle,..As in who keeps a horse for 12 months to use for one or even 4 weeks. Well my former wife might ,.. but that is part the resson why she is former YK YUKIf we observe and pratice ethical reponsible means to hunt ,. most things ( ways and means) are ok,..Bet Danial boone almost never went hunting without his horse or mule or what ever he used.However running deer with a anything that utilized combustion or electric or steam engine should reasult in its operators A$$ summarilly kicked,. said vehichle of what ever flavor confiscated and sold to bennifit the ethical hunterssAs to fences ,.. never hunted an enclosure ,.. but did for a time hunt a section (1 sq mile) and it was an actual square.Buffered by a couple fields it was surrounded by high end resedential dwellings of up to a million dollars .. probaly 850k now yuk yukAt any given time there were 100-150 deer on that property arial surveys proved it ,.. but they ( the deer) knew they were being hunted,.. and they were just as cagey as thier cousins in the big pine country.Ralph ,. longest drag for me was when i ws 18. Shot a big buck ( small rack) whopper body,.. would guess without the guts a little over 200lb,... in tammerac swamp,.. about 1.5 miles from the road. No snow and it was warm,..One tuckered puppy when the sand two track came into view. ( fire lane really) and that was it no more go power ,..had to rest up to walk the 1/2 mile to tell brother an Dad had one down and needed help.

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from Peter wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

To some extent ....hunting today is a joke at least in alot of areas like Michigan..you go to public land and theres a hunter per acre. Or the farm ground around is packed with hunters and all their familys on ever available piece of ground they can stick a blind.Thats not hunting. I sat on opening day in a little spot(waste of time) and heard some shots behind me off in the distance..a herd of deer go running by. They run across the field...i hear more shots . they come back across one deer less. Then I hear more shots they...come running out again..one deer less. Itslike. this is a joke, ill take up target shooting or clay pigeons r some elso thats actual hunting. I know out west..and on huge ranches and in Alaska n places like that its different ..but for the most part...it seems like a joke anyways.

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from David wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Refering to RICEFARM's Post.On the TV show hunts I understand why they whisper as they stalk or sit and wait in a blind,But can someone please tell me why do they whisper after the shot??????The shows are hard enough to follow along because they whisper before the shot why do they whisper after the shot?????

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from FH wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Dave Petzal, thank you for the realistic words about High Fences. Most of the negative coments seem to come from people who have never been to S. Africa or S. Texas for that matter, or seen 10,000 ac or even 1000 acres of S. Texas Brush. I recall the same types of comments from long bow hunters vs. Compound Bow Hunters or Skeet shooters vs Sporting clay shooters etc. I'm sure that when the neaderthals where trying to kill a Mastadon there was someone who thought they should attack from ambush with a spear and someone else who thought they should use a grass fire to run the whole herd off a cliff. I've known peolpe who have hunted S. Texas for years and passed on lots of big deer (160 class) waiting for the Real Monster (180+) to step out. I'd say don't knock it till you've tried it.

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from David wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I have to agree with ISHAWOOA about the use of a range finder. Early on I made a few bad shots that made my stomach turn with the results. As soon as I had the chance I bought one and love it.I also agree since I started using a range finder It has taught me how to judge distant better.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

brian:If your father shot a deer, was dragging it out, and suffered a heart attack, would you feel the same way about ATV's?There is a place for everything. Blamining ATV's for the damage caused by them is akin to blaming guns for the crime rate.YooperJack

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from brian wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph,I agree with your stance on four wheelers, trail cams, feeders and the like. I have alot more respect when an animal is taken with skill over technology.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Jhdo5 quote: these birds were turned out in the wild days before we hunted and flew as hard and fast and were just as skiddish as any "wild" bird i have hunted. Regardless of whether they were raised in a pen or in the wild, once they have been there for a couple of days, they are WILD.How did the preserve keep the birds in the assigned hunting area? The preserve I went to had assigned hunting areas, released the birds and let the hunters in. How did the preserve you went to operate?Jim

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from jhd05 wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I have hunted wild birds on many occasions, but on 2 occasions I have hunted game bird Preserves, these birds were turned out in the wild days before we hunted and flew as hard and fast and were just as skiddish as any "wild" bird i have hunted. Regardless of whether they were raised in a pen or in the wild, once they have been there for a couple of days, they are WILD.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I'm not a fan of game farms for bird hunting. I did it one time (here in Indiana) and the birds had to practically be kicked to fly.It didn't feel like hunting, it was very expensive and I felt like I was doing something wrong the entire time I was there.It's not for me, but it's legal and I know people who enjoy going. I just didn't.Jim

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

We used to go to the Army base Atterbury I think it was and shoot pheasant they had just released. Sure were fat and slow but tasted the same... it didn't really bother me but it wasn't really hunting because you knew they were there and there were way more per acre than in the wild. Beats picking up a chicken at Kroger, just don't confuse it with hunting.

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from Evan! wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

fences are for livestock.yrs-Evan!

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from JasonB wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Sarg,I'm a KY boy too. What part of our fine state do you occupy?To everyone else,What do you all think about upland hunting where the birds are placed in the field prior to the hunt? I only know of a few farms with quail on them, and while those farmers would give you the shirt off their backs, they won't let you hunt their quail. If you want to shoot quail, around here, you pretty much have to pay to do it. And none of the local bird hunting preserves are large enough to sustain a wild population, so the birds are placed. I'm not proud of it, but I'd rather hunt placed birds than none at all.JasonB

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Might start down around Dr.Ralph's or RockyMtn Hunter's home town..and go across the country. Could take a southern Route along the Rio Grande and serve two purposes..

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

atmiller:I am reluctant to criticize anyone else's recreation. Some people get out and enjoy the great outdoors by playing golf. I don't, but that's their cup of tea. Others spend many $$$ on fishing boats with electronic fish finders, downriggers,etc. I fish from a canoe. I don't judge those fishermen.There is some recreational value in game farms. I don't do it, but I see where someone else might have to. If large enough, and properly run, they could duplicate actual hunting conditions. Also, please see my "brain fart" above. I believe that these farms could go a long way towards preservation of endangered species, if given that mandate.YooperJack

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Wouldn't it be something to see a high fence running through the Rockies like the Great Wall of China? Extending to Alaska up past Clay's stomping grounds.. Think about it... No offence Dave

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from Matt in MN wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

To Jack Ryan - I couldn't have said it better myself.Taking a wise old doe on heavily hunted public land is WAY more of a trophy than some clown shooting behind a high fence.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Do the animals wear cow bells in the "high fence area"? I think there should be a double fence with the animals running between, like some of the large horse farms here in Ky...(just kidding)

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from atmiller wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

YooperJack, your comparison is flawed. If the fishing guide was to take you to the aquarium at Bass Pro Shop to fish, then that would be a fair comparison.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I watch the sportsman channel all the time and it strikes me funny to watch those Texas hunts to see those Big Game hunters with a 300 Super Dooper Ultimate Magnum rifle with a Super Dooper Scope and wearing Super Dooper Camo suit in a deer house 12 feet off the ground! I wonder why the camera man never points the camera behind the shooter? I wonder if it’s because there is an espresso coffee maker and a TV tuned to ESPN behind him and perhaps a hot tub?!?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I can see the use of high fences in Africa due to the commercialization of poaching. But in the US, hunting deer in a high fence like Texas and you shoot a monster of a buck? You might as well have shot a yearling doe so don’t come bragging to me! You might as well this turkey season go by Wal-Mart and pick up a Butter Ball Turkey on the way back from the sports bar opening day!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

There was an actual study done, where 4 hunters where turn loose in a high fence hunt that was 1/4 mile square. They hunted for a week and didn’t see anything. There was several deer turned loose into the fenced in area and before the hunt started, simulated hunting pressure was put onto the deer to teach them to avoid hunters. Then the 4 hunters hunted for a week and no deer was shot or even spotted! At Ft. Chaffee Arkansas, one of the best deer hunting places I know of, deer actually look up into trees looking for hunters, so go figure!

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from as moeggs wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Sorry Dave, I thought more of you prior to this post.

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from Jack Ryan wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

"game animals are becoming extremely valuable, so a high fence makes sense because it keeps them from wandering off, and it keeps non-paying personnel from wandering in and poaching your critters."You are confusing game animals with farm livestock. When they can't "wander off" to avoid getting shot then you aren't hunting any more. You are shooting live stock. When they cross over from being wild animals to being "your critters" they aren't wild any more and you aren't hunting. It may be close enough to hunting to suit you but it's not hunting. You know they are in there, they "belong" to you, they can't "wander off". Plain and simple, it's not hunting.It's rick pretenders slaughtering farm animals, pretending to be hunters, they don't like being told they are a pack of phonies and that is the only reason it keeps coming up. They know the truth and need the constant back slapping of their fellow phonies to ward off thier own guilty conscience.

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from Bernie Kuntz wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

High fences are indeed a touchy subject, and one writer had it spot-on--there is a big difference in whether the area fenced is 100 acres or 10,000.I hunted in South Africa only one time on four different properties, and two of them had high fences. However, the land inside the fences encompassed several square miles of brushy, rocky country. (This was in the Limpopo country just south of the Botswana border.) On the first day of hunting I shot a good impala, then saw a very good kudu bull climbing up a brushy, rocky hill. The sun was in my eyes and scope and no matter what I did, I could not get a shot. Same day I saw a big eland bull running behind a wall of brush eight feet high. All I could see was its horns. Also saw a very good nyala but no opportunity for a shot. I hunted the property with a white hunter for three or four more days and never could get a shot at any of these animals. Also saw a nyala run through a high fence like it wasn't there. Had a hell of a time getting a gemsbok, although I saw them every day. High fences but large land area. Finally shot one 38-1/2" on the tenth and last day of my hunt.Hope I can go back one day for the kudu and nyala.

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from Matt wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Blaming ATV's for peoples actions is like blaming the guns for gun violence and crimes.... you can't blame objects for the way SOME people use them because chances are most people use them correctly.

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from Matt wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Blaming ATV's for peoples actions is like blaming the guns for gun violence and crimes.... you can't blame objects for the way SOME people use them because chances are most people use them correctly.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Jeff,Welcome to the new world.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

While I don't do game farms, what's the difference in going to a game farm to hunt, and hiring a charter boat to take you fishing? I never read about that industry being criticized. Yet, you are taken out, the mate gives you a rod, baits the hook, and you catch a fish. What's the difference?YooperJack

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from Jeff wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I think it's sad that one of our days most heralded shooting and hunting editors is using terms like "keeps them from wandering off" and "poaching your critters" while referring to something such as a high fence. I most often agree with you Dave but what happened to the the wild experience and the creatures we hunt being a beautiful natural resource available to us all. Than again, I never could find much respect for the stereotypical African hunt as it was.

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

A number of years ago Dow Chemical put up high fencing around their property. In the process they fenced in a lot of deer. This was a good thing and bad at the same time. It was good because the upper management would be assured of a deer a year if they got lazy. And bad in the fact that they were now responsible for over 500 deer and would have to feed them in the winter when there was no food to eat and over populated. Dow put up a viewing are and parking lot for people to go out there and watch and feed the deer. The problem with that is that they become tame and come to rely on people to bring them food. I have been told that some of the management have their deer picked out 8 months or more in advance and all they have to do is go out with a pickup and a gun shoot the deer and drive up to it. I have mixed feelings on that because I know that thinning out the herd is necessary but I feel that they should hunt them as you and I do. And not hunt from a pickup truck. And that a portion of the meat go to feeding the needy. I guess I view hunting a tame deer from less then 100 yards on flat ground takes the fun out of it.Thomas

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Dave Petzal:A while back we had quite adiscussion about the horrible condition of zoo animals (specifically Tatiana).While I would be loathe to pay money to hunt inside a fence, I can see where these fenced hunting preserves, especially the size you describe, could be invaluable in preserving endangered species in their native habitat. I recently saw or read something about Snow Leopards. I believe that there is less than 400 in the wild. While that's an Asian problem, not African, if a fenced hunting preserve could be located in that area, thespecies could be saved. The cost of this endeavor would be borne by sportsmen hunting other, more plentiful species, found within that large enclosure. If one of the goals of that establishment were to preserve the endangered species, I could be see myself booking a hunt there.YooperJack

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from Steve C wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

No different that any number of other hunting topic: where do you draw the line?Our ethics erode in direct relation to whether it adversely effects us personally or not.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Since I don't have to deal with the fence issue unless I hunt far from home I suppose I can't give much insight to this topic. The 4 wheeler use to hunt animals is no different than speeding along in their pickup or jeep to run the game animals down. I have seen people employ all of the above conveyances to get their antelope. It is illegal in Wyoming to hunt from any mechanized vehile but it is still done if the warden is not around. I prefer horses because I am basically lazy and don't like to hike. The wilderness regs state only horses, mules, llamas, or by foot to hunt. This makes it nice and quiet. I perfectly understand if someone is handicapped and must have a 4 wheeler to hunt. Most states make allowances for this unfortunate situation.Dr. Ralph I will have to diagree with you on the use of rangefinders. This device has probably caused more clean kills and less wounding of game animals in the west since the invention of a flat shooting rifle and scope. It is amazing how poorly even locals can judge range. The rangefinder will make a lier out of most folks. Additionally the constant use of this device eventually teaches you how to more accurately estimate distance in the big wide open spaces. Yes you can use your scope and most work quite well as rangefinders. I realize that this is not such a big deal in the beautiful forested hills of Tennessee (another place that I hold dear to my heart, not just the hills but also the people and the whiskey).

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

HHH quote:I guess those with the resourses are for it, and those without are left out.John quote:All it tells me about them is they have money to burn, not how good of a hunter they are.Money is the future of hunting. Look @ how much cash people are willing to hand over for hunts, guns, scopes, atv, scouting cameras, out of state tags, etc...It's not going to change and the days of knocking @ the farmers door and gaining access are coming to a close. When something has value (real or perceived) people usually won't give it away.I don't really like it either, but I sure don't see it changing.Jim

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from Scott Mahl wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I am afraid that I am stratling the fence on this one.(pun intended)I received all kinds of grief from an archery club because I hunted wild boar with my longbow in a huge enclosed area in TN, even though it had more acres than all of the public land we have in Northern IN. I have read from many outdoor writers that squeal with delight about the high fence hunting in Africa but then condemn the high fence hunting here in the states. That is a bit of hypocrisy isn't it? Anyway, while I do have issue with the smaller fenced properties I guess I would rather see some of the high fenced hunting areas than the subdivisions which are eating up most of our available land.

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from John wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I have more respect for someone who goes out on unfenced ground and gets a rabbit, spike buck, wood duck whatever than someone who goes on a canned "hunt" with a PH, a .338 and gets a B&C whitetail.All it tells me about them is they have money to burn, not how good of a hunter they are.

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from ricefarm wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

This has been a few years ago but I was watching a hunting show where the hunted was buffalo, somewhere in the northern plains of the US. A guide and a hunter with a high powered rifle (as well as a camera crew) were stalking the animals as if the slightest sound would spook them, crawling, whispering, etc. When the shooter dropped one of the bison, two things became evident. One was this small herd wasn't too concerned about humans because the sound of the shot didn't even raise their heads, and two, there was a fence in the background immeditately behind the herd. I couldn't believe that this was considered hunting but worse, IT WAS ON TV! We have to be careful how these things are handled and presented or they can be used as ammo by the anti-hunting crowd. Non hunters generally want to believe the worst, so there is no point in us feeding it to them.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph,I have the same tendency that you do, lumping all things in one category! Were it not for a 4-wheeler, my hunting would be much more limited! I can walk, just not long distances. Anything over about 100 yards and I'm wishing I had stayed at home! KILL a deer that far from a road and I have a REAL problem! Have to track a deer? If he runs beyond out of sight, I might as well pack a skillet and eat him where he fell! I'd never get him/her packed out. I can't carry over 20 lbs!I find a spot, set up my blind, drive to within 30/50 yards and hunt! So far, I've been able to drive right up to everything I've killed except one. She ran up under a black locust and I had to drag her about 10 yards! Ouch!I attempt to use my 4-wheeler responsibly and in a sporting manner!BUT, you are right!Bubba

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from HHH wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I've been on both sides of the fence. I hunted once with a gun who had 100 acres, high fenced on 3 sides of his property by his neighbor. I asked the guy if he was mad at his neighbor for high fencing around his property? His answer suprised me, he said "Heck no, if I had the money I'd have done the same thing." I guess those with the resourses are for it, and those without are left out.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

I drag my deer out and the land is straight up and down, but that is not what I was talking about... in rural Tennessee there is a new found love for cruising the woods in the middle of the night on an ATV with a loaded weapon. It makes me sick but THAT is what people are using these vehicles for and it is far worse than hunting 10,000 acres with a fence around it....

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from Chris H. wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

So Dr. Ralph, you have a problem with my using a four-wheeler to go pick up a deer I killed and bring it back to the truck. That is the only time I use a four-wheeler when hunting. Would it be ok if I used a horse to make getting the deer out easier but not a four-wheeler? Please explain. Hunting today is exponentially easier than it was in the past. I would be impressed if you have not taken advantage of any modern conveniences that make it easier.

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from SL wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Sure, everyone who hunts inside a fence will try to justify it. I realize that 10,000 acres is a lot of land, but the animals ARE in an enclosure no matter how you slice it. Game animals are no longer truly wild, but behind fences like cattle. I know it's big money that is driving all this these days, but the 10,000 acre fields will eventually become 1000 acres, then 500 acres and so on. I am sure someone will still try to justify it and try to call it hunting even then!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

White tailed deer home ranges vary from around 200 to 2,000 acres according to multiple studies and depending mostly upon food availability. The average deer lives on less than 1 square mile which is 640 acres. I really don't have a problem with enclosed hunting areas or high fences as long as you're talking a couple of thousand acres minimum... definitely keeps out the poachers. I do have a problem with trail cams, four wheelers, feeders and range finders. If you're using them you're really not hunting by my way of thinking. It's not supposed to be easy!

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

While I'm not a fan of high fence hunting, I guess part of it depends on how many acres are fenced.If it's 10,000 acres, that's obviously different than it being a 100 acres.Money is changing hunting in many ways and for many the changes aren't going to be positive.Jim

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from D E Curtiss wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

PROBABLY A (GOOD) REALITY CHECK, BUT STILL DOES NOT SIT JUST RIGHT. DO SERIOUSLY ENJOY YOUR OBSERVATIONS.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 2 weeks ago

Conversely why is shot placement, premium bullets, and magnum rifles (complete with lots of practice) so popular among those of us who hunt around Yellowstone Park? The main reason is that if an animal is legally shot outside the Park and runs across the imaginary line into the Park you cannot pursue and bring him back out of the federal land onto state or private land. He is wolf and grizzley grub. I prefer to hunt away from the boundary and to use enough gun that the critter hits the ground immediately. Here is one place where fences would be good in that the feds would have kept their damn fawn and calf eating wolves in the Park and not outside of it as well. If you guys ever hunt around YNP be careful as it is patrolled from the air and they take their job very seriously. As of the delisting of the gray wolf last Friday things might change to some degree in NW Wyoming.

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