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The NYPD Needs Your Help!

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November 28, 2006

The NYPD Needs Your Help!

By David E. Petzal and Phil Bourjaily

When I was in the Army, there was a drill that we called the Mad Minute, in which an infantry company would shoot every weapon it had nonstop for 60 seconds. I’m not clear what the purpose was, but it was lots of fun, and the American taxpayer footed the bill.

Apparently, the New York City Police Department has adopted the Mad Minute as tactical doctrine. This past Saturday, five officers emptied 50 rounds of 9mm ammo into a car that held three unarmed men, killing one and wounding the others. One intrepid cop cranked off 31 rounds, using up two full magazines.

Now I am not here to judge whether or not this was right or wrong. I am only an unqualified civilian. But I do know this. If the NYPD starts shooting at people who actually shoot back, they are going to run out of ammunition.

And so I call on you, my fellow gun enthusiasts, to lend a hand to New York’s Finest. If you have a spare box, or a case, of 9mm lying around, send it to people who need it more than you do. The address is:

Commissioner Raymond Kelly
New York City Police Department
One Police Plaza
New York, New York

Thank you.

Comments (63)

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from PATRICK MOYNIHAN wrote 7 years 19 weeks ago

LAST TIME I CHECKED, A CAR LOAD OF THUGS SPEEDING TOWARDS PEDESTRIAN POLICE OFFICERS IS LIFE THREATENING, REGARDLES OF WHETHER THEY ARE ARMED OR NOT. TO JUDGE THESE OFFICER'S RESPONSE IS PREMATURE WITHOUT A COMPLETE AND THOROUGH INVESTIGATION.I SECOND THE MOTION TO APPOINT BRANDON AS FIELD AND STREAM GUN EDITOR.

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from A. S. Moeggs wrote 7 years 19 weeks ago

Vote for Brandon- Field and Stream gun editor!

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from Brandon wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

First off, I thought that this was a hunting and fishing magazine, but I would like to write that I am a Detective with the Hartford, Connecticut Police Department. Hartford is a City, but quite a departure from NYC. I write this simply as a matter of fact, and not to gain respect, admiration or pity.Mr. Petzal, Im a little disappointed about the departure from the usual program, I always enjoyed your writing. Im also disappointed in your comments, which seem to take a liberal slant, but I respect your opinion / right to free speech just the same. As I remember, its a right that we all enjoy, and something that our military people have lost life and limb for. Its a right that deserves to be exercised cautiously and with consideration for how it was earned.Making fun of NYPD is never something that Ive thought of as a "good" idea. Ill leave the 9/11 thing alone, but I will write one thing in relation to it. That was a day that was unprecedented upon American soil save Pearl Harbor, and as we all know some NYPD guys lost their lives (among many others of course) trying to save others who they did not know and had never met. How better can you illustrate through action (which is really what counts) the respect for mankind and life itself that these individuals possessed. Second, NYPD officers have been tested on plenty of occasions where the encounter was gun on gun and or justified use of deadly force. I personally think theyve done pretty well. Usually, in a lethal force encounter surviving is a luxury that is sought and not always achieved. Enough said there I think.And for a moment, think of how profoundly the mere involvement in this incident has and possibly will effect the lives of the officers involved and the lives of the people around them. Think of the distanced relatives, lost friends and ruined relationships / marriages. Think of the potential of lost employment / job security, professional reputation, pension, personal finances and litigation, civil and criminal should the investigation turn out badly. Personally I have seen the outcome of shootings deemed righteous and not, as well as those that needed resolution within a court of law to decide such. I can tell you that it was never pretty or pleasant. Forget about religous and personal beliefs about the final consequences for taking a life. I doubt that anyone, even the guy who gets pulled over by a cruiser every day and gets a ticket would think for a second that these individuals would consider for a second that knowingly and unlawfully shooting an unarmed person in the performance of their duties would end up in anything but a seemingly endless abyss of uncertainty in every aspect of their life, both personal and professional.Last to some of the more "ignorant" responses from at least one of the readers posted, referring to folks from the "north" as "Yankees", (smile when you say that), remember that we are ALL AMERICANS, and you might want to crack a book because the last time I checked, when we ("Yankees") and the south ("Rebels") locked horns, things got pretty ugly. Also, Im sure that "marksmanship" played more than a small part in the preservation of the "Union". Last, as I wrote initially, I hope to enjoy reading on matters concerning outdoor activities and I hope that we never have to endure a debate like this in F&S again. When I show up to fish fresh water or salt, hunt birds on dry land or near water or get out into the woods for deer, I treat every person I meet as a friend and an equal. I dont ask their political orientation or where they hail from. The individuals involved in this incident deserve our consideration and our faith in the investigative process. Personally I hope for the best for them.

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from John Broussard wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

The "Mad Minute" has nothing whatsoever to do with what happened in NYC last week!Police are simply not allowed to shoot under the same rules of engagement the military operates under.The only argument that anyone could possibly have against those officers is the number of shots they fired, and until someone with practical experience can tell me exactly how many handgun rounds it SHOULD take to stop a car, I'm not convinced they did anything I wouldn't have done in the same case.I'd bet my next two paychecks that most of those rounds were aimed at the driver of that car; and they got him and stopped the vehicle before it caused even more mayhem, so job well done.What is intelectually dishonest is trying to portray those thugs in the car as "just a group of boys out having a good time". Did any of them have jobs? I understand that they had more than a dozen arrests between them.or the other cop-out..."They were afraid to stop because it was a bad neighborhood." Well, they weren't afraid to drink and party in that neighborhood for several hours before the incident, so they couldn't have been THAT afraid of the place.

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from O Garcia wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Dave P.,Both Finn Aagard and Chuck Karwan when writing about the Lee-Enfield rifle have mentioned the British version of the 'mad minute', where a 'good man' (remarkable how simple terms were back then) is expected to fire 15 aimed shots with the Lee-Enfield rifle at a man sized target 200 yards away. 'Experts' could do 20, even 30 aimed shots with the L-E, which was noted for its fast operation, esp. compared with Mausers and Springfields with their longer bolt strokes.I suppose the mad minute was a carryover from WW1 or an even older war, when infantrymen had to hold off waves of attackers, before machineguns became widespread.

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from Ja Demko wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

The cops may well have been justified in shooting this time. 9/11 still has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this incident and trying to say that it does is intellectually dishonest.

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from A. S. Moeggs wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Dear Daniel, the coppers did not mearly have there car "ran into" as you indicated. It was more like attempted vehicular homicide-where deadly force is met with deadly force. Now get back to baking your Christmas cookies.

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from Brandon wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Unbelieveable that we should have to read this in an outdoorsman's magazine. Save your liberal B.S. for public radio.

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from Dan wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Also, just because someone ran into your car is no reason to kill them... and then bring up 9/11 as an excuse

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from Dan wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

ummm i think that if Dave wanted this discussion to be about hunting, he would have said something about it.

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from Brad R wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Until you find yourself in a situation where you feel your life is in danger you don't know how you will react. Be careful how you judge these officers based on the liberal media and their careful wording (or lack there of)the facts. Remember this is the same media who gives so much time to those who don't want you to have guns or the right to hunt!

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from A. S. Moeggs wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Dave Petzal, since were on the left field topics again, my widowed grandmother wanted to know if you are single? She says you bare a striking resemblence to Sean Connery. Sorry to you other readers for wasting your time with my post, but hey, apparently anything goes on here now!

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from DS wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

To K Murphy: I have to hand it to you. You are absolutely correct! Not one of us came here to rant about this S***. So for that. I say THANKS for reminding me why I go to this site. So for last nights rant, and Flag waving. SORRY. I just get alittle protective. To the other writer you are correct someone did DIE, and no one wants that on their head. Only on TV do people hi- five and back slap. Its really like "HOLY S***, WHAT THE F***!!!!!, and then reality sets in. (been there, done that.) AS for facts, 11 shots, 4 shots, 3 shots, 1 shot and the imfamous 31 (50). Five guys, mixed back rounds and races. race not a factor. Watch the news in the next days, Lets see if things dont change about who did or who didnt have a gun. There were 4 guys in the car not 3 as our ever truthful media says. There are your facts. NOW back to HUNTING and FISHING.

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from John Broussard wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

"LET'S KEEP THE POLITICS THAT DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH FISHING OR HUNTING OF THE OUTDOORS OUT OF THIS MAGAZINE AND WEB SITE. I COME HERE TO GET AWAY FROM THE MADNESS."Thank you, K Murphy, yours is the most sensible post on this thread so far.

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from craig curtis wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

theirs good cops and theirs bad cops , theirs good shots and theirs bad shots , but their aint no sheep here . and the only thing you"ll find hiding under my bed is a revolver powerfull enough to blow your head clean off at ten paces !!! but seriously i think we all have the utmost respect for everyone in uniform in this country including our troops!! were just trying to understand the facts as they come in .

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from Mark wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Think we’ve all been had. Dave P. is an agent provocateur who has baited us all to expose our inner feelings to:1. Time Warner, an admittedly mass media conglomerate with the power to destroy us all, and….2. To the leading fuzzy edge of the New Order Brotherhood/Sisterhood who will take us all to Gitmo!Time to take to the hills, cache the gas, ammo, food and water!!!!!!! However, we will prevail over the evil do’ers.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

"It holds 32 rounds in a drum magazine.."Hey Dave, I think the NYPD needs to watch some reruns of "The Untouchables." That firearm has already been designed. It's called a "Thompson." ;)

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from K Murphy wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

LET'S KEEP THE POLITICS THAT DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH FISHING OR HUNTING OF THE OUTDOORS OUT OF THIS MAGAZINE AND WEB SITE. I COME HERE TO GET AWAY FROM THE MADNESS.

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from John Broussard wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

I'll concede that 9/11 does nothing to speak of Dave's original post regarding the marksmanship skills of the involved officers, but this thread devolved almost immediately into a criticism of the NYPD. That does rest squarely upon the character and integrity of those men involved, on both sides of the car windshield.I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I believe that the actions of the NYPD during 9/11 speaks volumes about the integrity of the men who work there.Furthermore, the fact that those young men could ram into another parked vehicle and not even bother to get out and see if they'd caused any injuries tells us a whole lot about their character as well. That they (allegedly) almost ran over a pedestrian in their attempt to leave the scene of a hit and run is also telling.In the end, had it been other than a vanload of cops, it would have gone down as another hit and run with a single pedestrian fatality as reported on the news every night in this country. Instead those guys hit a vanload of cops and rather than stop when ordered, provoked a shooting. Tragic, but totally avoidable. Darwin's theory remains proven.As to the mechanics of how many rounds it takes to stop a getaway car... 50 sounds about right to me for a small car. Maybe more for a truck or SUV. Perhaps we have an expert on how many rounds of what kind of ammo are necessary for the shooting/stopping of automobiles who could enlighten us. Are hollowpoints better than solids for car stopping? Slugs?The Iraquis are getting good results with RPGs, perhaps cops could start carrying those instead and then they could stop speeding autos with a more politically defensible single round.Or we could just stop and get out of our cars and say, "I'm sorry I hit your car, is anybody hurt?"

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from adam wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

hell i think that they need to send their cops down south to shoot with the good old boy.then maybe the could kill some one or something stupid yankees pigs

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from JA Demko wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

DS,9/11 still has f***-all to do with this incident, no matter how apoplectic and blustery you choose to get. Waving your badge, if you even really have one, also does nothing to clarify the situation. If you are in possession of information that would clarify the situation, maybe you should share that information. Your present contributions do nothing to change anybody's mind.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Hey DS-Lighten-up, I was on the cop block, too, and I left, in part, because of those massive chips some cops carry on their shoulder.Once one chooses to become a cop you are reviewed by the court of public opinion that's the way it is. Trust me when I say, I KNOW how well police take care of their own problems; every DA wanting to make a name for themselves is waiting around the corner for something like this to happen for PR-TV time. All I am saying is chill out man, for we that have been there know what's up, and life will go on. Keep in mind, a man died,it wasn't a brief session of alley court, so emotions will flow off the chart on this one.And if you would like to refer to me as any animal while writing on Dave's blog, please make it a WOLF and not a sheep; I do prefer my meat RARE.

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from HH wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

I have never seen war, I'm not an officer, and i'm a long way from new york. I see getting rammed and run from in a vehichle as an attack and dont blame them for shooting, but i dont think thats what this original post is about. I know we're missing facts, and if possible, it'd probably help the discussion if ya'll NYPD guys could fill us in (if allowed to). but IF this one fact is true tho, can we at least agree that 31 out of 50 from one guy is a little overkill? that leaves 5 shots apiece roughly from the other 4 guys. for a car that sounds much more reasonable (though that is speculation having never been there). to the guys who serve, thanks, i'd probably pee on myself if someone ran at me with a car

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from DS wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

what do you do? Its easy to comment. Read a famous speach by Teddy Roosevelt, it starts out with " It is not the critic that counts, or how the doer of great deads could have done them better, the credit belongs to man in the arena" Look it up. Its very enlighting. you dont have to be a cop or a new yorker. Read my earlier comments.

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from O Garcia wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

so basically, to be worthy of posting a comment or criticism of the cops' actions, one must either be a member of the Brotherhood/ Sisterhood or be a New Yorker?

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from DS wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Well here is someone who might have an orignal thought,JA Demko, I was there for SEPT. 11. from the first day and lost some very good friends ( from the FDNY and NYPD)and I agree that it has nothing to do with what happened that night. Everyone did there part, but like the man says "That has f*** all to do with it" and he is right. Lets stick to the facts. AND YOU DONT HAVE THEM!!!!!!!!!! I have an idea! Lets wait to hang these guys, until we have the FACTS. Then we can make an informative dicision...........

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from DS wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

to russ: I am not young, and as for the comment of people hiding under the bed it was not ment for Men/Women in uniform. It was ment for thoes who have the luxury of being able to hide. you know, like hiding behind thoes of us who do the fighting for them.... I have served for over 20 years, and I would not trade one lost moment, one lost holiday, or one FRIEND lost in the line of duty for all the money in the world. If you work in an environment that is controled (like an office) life is safe.... If you work in OUR world it is far from it....I was not there that night, so I would not cast judgement, but I was there on other nights in other parts of my city(NEW YORK CITY)when things just didnt go the way you want them to. I have faith in the people of NYC, and I will let them decide, not you sheep that follow DAVE the journalist!

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from JA Demko wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

What some NYPD cops did on 9/11 has f***-all to do with what these cops may or may not have done. If we are talking about this incident, then let us stick with this incident.

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from Jenks wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

I'll take a cops word over some thugs in a battering ram with 17 arrests between them.

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from russ wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

to ridin dirt, There isn't any bleeding heart liberals here, and those guys didn't look down the barrel of anything, and to D.S. your hiding under the bed comment dishonors all the good men and women in uniform- you must be young.

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from John Broussard wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

As a former LEO I understand DS's outrage at the comments heaped upon the NYPD in this blog. I've been there, Brother, and it's not EVER how it comes out in the newsie's story line "after the fact" (emphasis on that last part).It wasn't that long ago that those same officers showed uncommon valor and dedication to life... or have we already forgotten 9/11?Lets wait until the whole story gets told before we condemn them.Every one of those shots will be accounted for - that's the difference between cops and soldiers, we have to justify EVERY single pull of the trigger. If there was a mistake made, it will definitely be found and dealt with.It looks bad, but looks can be deceiving.

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from DS wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Oh, and DAVE your a journalist? Try and get all the FACTS before you and your closed mind, open your mouth and talk about things you know nothing about. lets wait and see what the people of NEW YORK have to say about it in a Grand Jury, WE the members of the NYPD answer to them Not You and the simple minded folks who follow your lead like sheep.....Try and at least act like a journalist.........

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from DS wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

First off, the fine men and women of the NYPD dont need or want your AMMO, your Understanding, your help, or your enlightined monday moring quater back view on how the should or should not have handeled this situation. You are not part of our Brotherhood/Sisterhood. We are the ones along with the solders/sailors of this great nation who protect your rights to have your little discusion on this matter. Try to have this little give and take in some other nation..... IT DOES NOT HAPPEN. so remember the people you bad mouth, are the ones who work thoes late hours and on holidays away from their families to keep you safe. Have a merry Christmas. we dont need your thanks or you AMMO. but remember this we are there, went your under your bed hiding......

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from Mark wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

You characters trying to defend those cops in NYC need a new script. You’re starting to sound like pregnant nuns. Too many things don’t wash. Facts:1. Plainclothes, non-uniformed cops.2. Unmarked police vehicle.3. Night time.4. “Nice” section of town.Gee! Would I have allowed myself to be flagged down by someone not wearing a visible law uniform?

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from CB wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

I would have unloaded on that car to. A car is a pretty big weapon.

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from Jenks wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

If you run over a cop and ram a van you ARE using a weapon. They were ARMED with a 4,000 pound weapon !! I'm glad where I live a cop can shoot at a vehicle that hits him or tries to hit him. If these people would heed commands this wouldn't happen.

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from jstreet wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Just because you don't want some cops shooting 50 times and spraying three unarmed men (not to mention the other citizens around them) doesn't make you a bleeding heart liberal. These cops weren't looking down the barrel of a gun. By the way, telling people to shut their mouths isn't tough, it's rude and shows your lack of class.jim

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from Ridin Dirty wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Until one of you bleeding heart liberals looks down the barrel of a gun or is fired upon, keep your mouths shut.

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from KANE wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Of course if someone tried to run me over I would probably unload on them too (hopefully with better accuracy). But the NYPD isn't suppossed to use lethal force against a vehicle and they stated they thought they were being shot at.

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from KANE wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Unfortunately this a case where a few idiots make the rest of a fine bunch of policemen look bad. Kinda of like when someone leaves a loaded gun out for his 3 year old to play with.

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from John Ludovico wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Although it APPEARS that this shooting was an over-reaction on the part of the police, until you become a NYC police officer & walk the beat, best to keep your lips zipped. While no one wants excessive force used, there may be times when your life is in danger & the terror of the moment causes an unfortunate result. We weren't there so we're not in a position to judge EXACTLY what happened.

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from Jtamethyst wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

That's what you get when they have an anti-gun, anti-business, spying mayor in NY.

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from Jenks wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

If someone tried to run me over and ram my vehicle, I would unload on them also and I'm not a cop. Certain groups of people in our society don't listen to police commands. And it seems like it ALWAYS is the same group !

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from FISCHERHUNTS wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

The "unarmed" guys were using their CAR to try to run over the Officer. Most of the facts are being left out by the Main Stream Media. A car is a pretty BIG weapon if you ask me.

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from Matt wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Naturally, if there was even one case where a civilian gun owner unleashed half as much lead, every anti-gun politician on the Potomac would want them to be burned at the stake and the ATF immediately go door-to-door like some sick halloween. But if the coppers do it... business as usual. I've always wondered how Sarah Brady could say only police are responsible enough to carry firearms and say it with a straight face. Must have a pretty strong anti-giggle reflex.

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from Dave Petzal wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

To Concerned Soldier: As I recall, the first rule is to achieve fire superiority. I would call 50 to 0 a pretty good effort.By the way, a gun dealer friend of mine tells me that a major handgun manufacturer is coming out with a 9mm NYPD Model automatic. It holds 32 rounds in a drum magazine, much like the one that was available for the Luger. Fairly awkward to carry, but should eliminate those embarassing pauses for reloading.

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from Firehand wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Few years ago we had a shoot in Oklahama City that hit this level. A armed robbery or attempted murder suspect(can't remember which offhand) was spotted in a Denny's. Several plainclothes officers got a booth across from him and, when everyone around him had left, did the "You're under arrest" business. He reached for a gun.Range of about 8-10 feet, 42 rounds fired as I recall. Don't remember the hit ratio, but wasn't real good.

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from Concerned_Soldier wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Dave,We now call it, "SUPPRESIVE FIRE"Good Stuff, keep up the good work!V/RC_S

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from Peter C wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Bloomberg is a RINO (Republican In Name Only). He might be slightly to the right of Ted Kennedy, but not by much. I suppose that now he could say that this incident proves that not even the police should have firearms. When you have as much money as Bloomberg, the media and all your associates are not likely to be willing to call you an a$$hole.

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from Mark wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s political career hit the wall over this disturbing event. Doubt he or his anti-gun agenda will go any further now. Is Bloomberg a Republican????Unfortunately, the real issues aren’t so much the mechanics [50 plus rounds fired in promiscuity], but the social-political policies existing that allowed such event to occur. Can’t wait to see how the Bloomberg Administration glosses over this event trying to escape accountability where the “good guys” and their knuckles blasted three un-armed Voters that don’t seem to have been breaking any laws.

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from A. S. Moeggs wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

If NYPD would use a .40 or.45, I think they would discover fewer rounds would be needed. If a bad guy tried running me down with his car, I would be unloading my gack also!

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from Gflyz wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Terrifying. 50 rounds at unarmed people - who were IN a car! Tells me two things - the NYPD needs to learn how to shoot and the survivors are incredibly lucky. I smell a lawsuit - which Taxpayers will have to foot the bill for.We need to tell Ray that their officers need some serious firearms training.

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from O Garcia wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

And I thought those Hollywood gunfights are bad. Fact is stranger than fiction, indeed.

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from KJ wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

While it is too early and too few details are known to make an accurate judgment, it is hard to imagine the need for 50 rounds being fired. 31 by one officer? Geez - it's bad enough when you need a gun to defend yourself from the crooks. It's starting to sound like you might need to carry one to defend yourself from the cops, too.

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from Corie P wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Dave,I believe this goes back to a previous blog you wrote about making the police force go back to the revolver. I was going to write about this same story in my blog, but you beat me to it. Couldn't have said it much better.Maybe we should suggest the police load the first 5 or 6 shots in their magazines with blanks. Since it seems they're firing for effect anyway.THe word on that story was that the car rammed two uncover police cars before attempting to flee the scene. I hope if I ever get into a fender-bender with a police car I have a kevlar vest on.

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from craig curtis wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

NYPD. you gotta love em but i think they could use a little andy of mayberry medicine . give them one barny bullet and they may appreciate it much more when they shoot it . how much does it cost to ship a box of bullets ?? i dont think anybody here is up for this expencive joke !!!

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from jstreet wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Three cops shot 50 times and only killed one unarmed man? They definetly need more training and ammo so maybe the next time they can kill all three unarmed suspects. Holy crap!!!!!jim

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from PbHead wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Shipping ammo to the NYPD is wasteful. First, they must learn when to shoot. Second, they must learn how to shoot effectively. Going back to revolvers might prove helpful. Limiting the amount of ammo a NYPD officer can carry might help. Hey, where are all of those ten round clips Hillary and her ilk thought were so great? Here is a market for what many considered scrap metal and might also serve a useful social and political purpose.

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from ray wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

whut peter c said...

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from Peter C wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Kee-rist...the last thing the NYPD needs is more ammo!

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

I agree w/Dave, in that one cannot judge the event since we were not there, but it certainly seems that a few NYPD cops have caused one giant cluster *uck of a political storm. I plan on keeping my ammo, but I will gladly send the commissioner the latest issue of my "Cheaper then Dirt" ammo catalog.

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from ford wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Not only are the prices of ammo supplies going up, we have idiots in NYC uisng it all up before the average hand loader is going to get to the stuff. I REALLY need to stock up now.

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from Archerwvu wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Perhaps Ray Kelly should be making sure his "sharpshooters" are using UMC or Wolf ammo.Hard to fathom.

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from PATRICK MOYNIHAN wrote 7 years 19 weeks ago

LAST TIME I CHECKED, A CAR LOAD OF THUGS SPEEDING TOWARDS PEDESTRIAN POLICE OFFICERS IS LIFE THREATENING, REGARDLES OF WHETHER THEY ARE ARMED OR NOT. TO JUDGE THESE OFFICER'S RESPONSE IS PREMATURE WITHOUT A COMPLETE AND THOROUGH INVESTIGATION.I SECOND THE MOTION TO APPOINT BRANDON AS FIELD AND STREAM GUN EDITOR.

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from A. S. Moeggs wrote 7 years 19 weeks ago

Vote for Brandon- Field and Stream gun editor!

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from Brandon wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

First off, I thought that this was a hunting and fishing magazine, but I would like to write that I am a Detective with the Hartford, Connecticut Police Department. Hartford is a City, but quite a departure from NYC. I write this simply as a matter of fact, and not to gain respect, admiration or pity.Mr. Petzal, Im a little disappointed about the departure from the usual program, I always enjoyed your writing. Im also disappointed in your comments, which seem to take a liberal slant, but I respect your opinion / right to free speech just the same. As I remember, its a right that we all enjoy, and something that our military people have lost life and limb for. Its a right that deserves to be exercised cautiously and with consideration for how it was earned.Making fun of NYPD is never something that Ive thought of as a "good" idea. Ill leave the 9/11 thing alone, but I will write one thing in relation to it. That was a day that was unprecedented upon American soil save Pearl Harbor, and as we all know some NYPD guys lost their lives (among many others of course) trying to save others who they did not know and had never met. How better can you illustrate through action (which is really what counts) the respect for mankind and life itself that these individuals possessed. Second, NYPD officers have been tested on plenty of occasions where the encounter was gun on gun and or justified use of deadly force. I personally think theyve done pretty well. Usually, in a lethal force encounter surviving is a luxury that is sought and not always achieved. Enough said there I think.And for a moment, think of how profoundly the mere involvement in this incident has and possibly will effect the lives of the officers involved and the lives of the people around them. Think of the distanced relatives, lost friends and ruined relationships / marriages. Think of the potential of lost employment / job security, professional reputation, pension, personal finances and litigation, civil and criminal should the investigation turn out badly. Personally I have seen the outcome of shootings deemed righteous and not, as well as those that needed resolution within a court of law to decide such. I can tell you that it was never pretty or pleasant. Forget about religous and personal beliefs about the final consequences for taking a life. I doubt that anyone, even the guy who gets pulled over by a cruiser every day and gets a ticket would think for a second that these individuals would consider for a second that knowingly and unlawfully shooting an unarmed person in the performance of their duties would end up in anything but a seemingly endless abyss of uncertainty in every aspect of their life, both personal and professional.Last to some of the more "ignorant" responses from at least one of the readers posted, referring to folks from the "north" as "Yankees", (smile when you say that), remember that we are ALL AMERICANS, and you might want to crack a book because the last time I checked, when we ("Yankees") and the south ("Rebels") locked horns, things got pretty ugly. Also, Im sure that "marksmanship" played more than a small part in the preservation of the "Union". Last, as I wrote initially, I hope to enjoy reading on matters concerning outdoor activities and I hope that we never have to endure a debate like this in F&S again. When I show up to fish fresh water or salt, hunt birds on dry land or near water or get out into the woods for deer, I treat every person I meet as a friend and an equal. I dont ask their political orientation or where they hail from. The individuals involved in this incident deserve our consideration and our faith in the investigative process. Personally I hope for the best for them.

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from John Broussard wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

The "Mad Minute" has nothing whatsoever to do with what happened in NYC last week!Police are simply not allowed to shoot under the same rules of engagement the military operates under.The only argument that anyone could possibly have against those officers is the number of shots they fired, and until someone with practical experience can tell me exactly how many handgun rounds it SHOULD take to stop a car, I'm not convinced they did anything I wouldn't have done in the same case.I'd bet my next two paychecks that most of those rounds were aimed at the driver of that car; and they got him and stopped the vehicle before it caused even more mayhem, so job well done.What is intelectually dishonest is trying to portray those thugs in the car as "just a group of boys out having a good time". Did any of them have jobs? I understand that they had more than a dozen arrests between them.or the other cop-out..."They were afraid to stop because it was a bad neighborhood." Well, they weren't afraid to drink and party in that neighborhood for several hours before the incident, so they couldn't have been THAT afraid of the place.

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from O Garcia wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Dave P.,Both Finn Aagard and Chuck Karwan when writing about the Lee-Enfield rifle have mentioned the British version of the 'mad minute', where a 'good man' (remarkable how simple terms were back then) is expected to fire 15 aimed shots with the Lee-Enfield rifle at a man sized target 200 yards away. 'Experts' could do 20, even 30 aimed shots with the L-E, which was noted for its fast operation, esp. compared with Mausers and Springfields with their longer bolt strokes.I suppose the mad minute was a carryover from WW1 or an even older war, when infantrymen had to hold off waves of attackers, before machineguns became widespread.

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from Ja Demko wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

The cops may well have been justified in shooting this time. 9/11 still has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this incident and trying to say that it does is intellectually dishonest.

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from A. S. Moeggs wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Dear Daniel, the coppers did not mearly have there car "ran into" as you indicated. It was more like attempted vehicular homicide-where deadly force is met with deadly force. Now get back to baking your Christmas cookies.

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from Brandon wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Unbelieveable that we should have to read this in an outdoorsman's magazine. Save your liberal B.S. for public radio.

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from Dan wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Also, just because someone ran into your car is no reason to kill them... and then bring up 9/11 as an excuse

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from Dan wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

ummm i think that if Dave wanted this discussion to be about hunting, he would have said something about it.

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from Brad R wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Until you find yourself in a situation where you feel your life is in danger you don't know how you will react. Be careful how you judge these officers based on the liberal media and their careful wording (or lack there of)the facts. Remember this is the same media who gives so much time to those who don't want you to have guns or the right to hunt!

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from A. S. Moeggs wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Dave Petzal, since were on the left field topics again, my widowed grandmother wanted to know if you are single? She says you bare a striking resemblence to Sean Connery. Sorry to you other readers for wasting your time with my post, but hey, apparently anything goes on here now!

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from DS wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

To K Murphy: I have to hand it to you. You are absolutely correct! Not one of us came here to rant about this S***. So for that. I say THANKS for reminding me why I go to this site. So for last nights rant, and Flag waving. SORRY. I just get alittle protective. To the other writer you are correct someone did DIE, and no one wants that on their head. Only on TV do people hi- five and back slap. Its really like "HOLY S***, WHAT THE F***!!!!!, and then reality sets in. (been there, done that.) AS for facts, 11 shots, 4 shots, 3 shots, 1 shot and the imfamous 31 (50). Five guys, mixed back rounds and races. race not a factor. Watch the news in the next days, Lets see if things dont change about who did or who didnt have a gun. There were 4 guys in the car not 3 as our ever truthful media says. There are your facts. NOW back to HUNTING and FISHING.

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from John Broussard wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

"LET'S KEEP THE POLITICS THAT DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH FISHING OR HUNTING OF THE OUTDOORS OUT OF THIS MAGAZINE AND WEB SITE. I COME HERE TO GET AWAY FROM THE MADNESS."Thank you, K Murphy, yours is the most sensible post on this thread so far.

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from craig curtis wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

theirs good cops and theirs bad cops , theirs good shots and theirs bad shots , but their aint no sheep here . and the only thing you"ll find hiding under my bed is a revolver powerfull enough to blow your head clean off at ten paces !!! but seriously i think we all have the utmost respect for everyone in uniform in this country including our troops!! were just trying to understand the facts as they come in .

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from Mark wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Think we’ve all been had. Dave P. is an agent provocateur who has baited us all to expose our inner feelings to:1. Time Warner, an admittedly mass media conglomerate with the power to destroy us all, and….2. To the leading fuzzy edge of the New Order Brotherhood/Sisterhood who will take us all to Gitmo!Time to take to the hills, cache the gas, ammo, food and water!!!!!!! However, we will prevail over the evil do’ers.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

"It holds 32 rounds in a drum magazine.."Hey Dave, I think the NYPD needs to watch some reruns of "The Untouchables." That firearm has already been designed. It's called a "Thompson." ;)

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from K Murphy wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

LET'S KEEP THE POLITICS THAT DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH FISHING OR HUNTING OF THE OUTDOORS OUT OF THIS MAGAZINE AND WEB SITE. I COME HERE TO GET AWAY FROM THE MADNESS.

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from John Broussard wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

I'll concede that 9/11 does nothing to speak of Dave's original post regarding the marksmanship skills of the involved officers, but this thread devolved almost immediately into a criticism of the NYPD. That does rest squarely upon the character and integrity of those men involved, on both sides of the car windshield.I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I believe that the actions of the NYPD during 9/11 speaks volumes about the integrity of the men who work there.Furthermore, the fact that those young men could ram into another parked vehicle and not even bother to get out and see if they'd caused any injuries tells us a whole lot about their character as well. That they (allegedly) almost ran over a pedestrian in their attempt to leave the scene of a hit and run is also telling.In the end, had it been other than a vanload of cops, it would have gone down as another hit and run with a single pedestrian fatality as reported on the news every night in this country. Instead those guys hit a vanload of cops and rather than stop when ordered, provoked a shooting. Tragic, but totally avoidable. Darwin's theory remains proven.As to the mechanics of how many rounds it takes to stop a getaway car... 50 sounds about right to me for a small car. Maybe more for a truck or SUV. Perhaps we have an expert on how many rounds of what kind of ammo are necessary for the shooting/stopping of automobiles who could enlighten us. Are hollowpoints better than solids for car stopping? Slugs?The Iraquis are getting good results with RPGs, perhaps cops could start carrying those instead and then they could stop speeding autos with a more politically defensible single round.Or we could just stop and get out of our cars and say, "I'm sorry I hit your car, is anybody hurt?"

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from adam wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

hell i think that they need to send their cops down south to shoot with the good old boy.then maybe the could kill some one or something stupid yankees pigs

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from JA Demko wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

DS,9/11 still has f***-all to do with this incident, no matter how apoplectic and blustery you choose to get. Waving your badge, if you even really have one, also does nothing to clarify the situation. If you are in possession of information that would clarify the situation, maybe you should share that information. Your present contributions do nothing to change anybody's mind.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Hey DS-Lighten-up, I was on the cop block, too, and I left, in part, because of those massive chips some cops carry on their shoulder.Once one chooses to become a cop you are reviewed by the court of public opinion that's the way it is. Trust me when I say, I KNOW how well police take care of their own problems; every DA wanting to make a name for themselves is waiting around the corner for something like this to happen for PR-TV time. All I am saying is chill out man, for we that have been there know what's up, and life will go on. Keep in mind, a man died,it wasn't a brief session of alley court, so emotions will flow off the chart on this one.And if you would like to refer to me as any animal while writing on Dave's blog, please make it a WOLF and not a sheep; I do prefer my meat RARE.

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from HH wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

I have never seen war, I'm not an officer, and i'm a long way from new york. I see getting rammed and run from in a vehichle as an attack and dont blame them for shooting, but i dont think thats what this original post is about. I know we're missing facts, and if possible, it'd probably help the discussion if ya'll NYPD guys could fill us in (if allowed to). but IF this one fact is true tho, can we at least agree that 31 out of 50 from one guy is a little overkill? that leaves 5 shots apiece roughly from the other 4 guys. for a car that sounds much more reasonable (though that is speculation having never been there). to the guys who serve, thanks, i'd probably pee on myself if someone ran at me with a car

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from DS wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

what do you do? Its easy to comment. Read a famous speach by Teddy Roosevelt, it starts out with " It is not the critic that counts, or how the doer of great deads could have done them better, the credit belongs to man in the arena" Look it up. Its very enlighting. you dont have to be a cop or a new yorker. Read my earlier comments.

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from O Garcia wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

so basically, to be worthy of posting a comment or criticism of the cops' actions, one must either be a member of the Brotherhood/ Sisterhood or be a New Yorker?

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from DS wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Well here is someone who might have an orignal thought,JA Demko, I was there for SEPT. 11. from the first day and lost some very good friends ( from the FDNY and NYPD)and I agree that it has nothing to do with what happened that night. Everyone did there part, but like the man says "That has f*** all to do with it" and he is right. Lets stick to the facts. AND YOU DONT HAVE THEM!!!!!!!!!! I have an idea! Lets wait to hang these guys, until we have the FACTS. Then we can make an informative dicision...........

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from DS wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

to russ: I am not young, and as for the comment of people hiding under the bed it was not ment for Men/Women in uniform. It was ment for thoes who have the luxury of being able to hide. you know, like hiding behind thoes of us who do the fighting for them.... I have served for over 20 years, and I would not trade one lost moment, one lost holiday, or one FRIEND lost in the line of duty for all the money in the world. If you work in an environment that is controled (like an office) life is safe.... If you work in OUR world it is far from it....I was not there that night, so I would not cast judgement, but I was there on other nights in other parts of my city(NEW YORK CITY)when things just didnt go the way you want them to. I have faith in the people of NYC, and I will let them decide, not you sheep that follow DAVE the journalist!

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from JA Demko wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

What some NYPD cops did on 9/11 has f***-all to do with what these cops may or may not have done. If we are talking about this incident, then let us stick with this incident.

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from Jenks wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

I'll take a cops word over some thugs in a battering ram with 17 arrests between them.

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from russ wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

to ridin dirt, There isn't any bleeding heart liberals here, and those guys didn't look down the barrel of anything, and to D.S. your hiding under the bed comment dishonors all the good men and women in uniform- you must be young.

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from John Broussard wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

As a former LEO I understand DS's outrage at the comments heaped upon the NYPD in this blog. I've been there, Brother, and it's not EVER how it comes out in the newsie's story line "after the fact" (emphasis on that last part).It wasn't that long ago that those same officers showed uncommon valor and dedication to life... or have we already forgotten 9/11?Lets wait until the whole story gets told before we condemn them.Every one of those shots will be accounted for - that's the difference between cops and soldiers, we have to justify EVERY single pull of the trigger. If there was a mistake made, it will definitely be found and dealt with.It looks bad, but looks can be deceiving.

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from DS wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Oh, and DAVE your a journalist? Try and get all the FACTS before you and your closed mind, open your mouth and talk about things you know nothing about. lets wait and see what the people of NEW YORK have to say about it in a Grand Jury, WE the members of the NYPD answer to them Not You and the simple minded folks who follow your lead like sheep.....Try and at least act like a journalist.........

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from DS wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

First off, the fine men and women of the NYPD dont need or want your AMMO, your Understanding, your help, or your enlightined monday moring quater back view on how the should or should not have handeled this situation. You are not part of our Brotherhood/Sisterhood. We are the ones along with the solders/sailors of this great nation who protect your rights to have your little discusion on this matter. Try to have this little give and take in some other nation..... IT DOES NOT HAPPEN. so remember the people you bad mouth, are the ones who work thoes late hours and on holidays away from their families to keep you safe. Have a merry Christmas. we dont need your thanks or you AMMO. but remember this we are there, went your under your bed hiding......

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from Mark wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

You characters trying to defend those cops in NYC need a new script. You’re starting to sound like pregnant nuns. Too many things don’t wash. Facts:1. Plainclothes, non-uniformed cops.2. Unmarked police vehicle.3. Night time.4. “Nice” section of town.Gee! Would I have allowed myself to be flagged down by someone not wearing a visible law uniform?

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from CB wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

I would have unloaded on that car to. A car is a pretty big weapon.

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from Jenks wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

If you run over a cop and ram a van you ARE using a weapon. They were ARMED with a 4,000 pound weapon !! I'm glad where I live a cop can shoot at a vehicle that hits him or tries to hit him. If these people would heed commands this wouldn't happen.

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from jstreet wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Just because you don't want some cops shooting 50 times and spraying three unarmed men (not to mention the other citizens around them) doesn't make you a bleeding heart liberal. These cops weren't looking down the barrel of a gun. By the way, telling people to shut their mouths isn't tough, it's rude and shows your lack of class.jim

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from Ridin Dirty wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Until one of you bleeding heart liberals looks down the barrel of a gun or is fired upon, keep your mouths shut.

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from KANE wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Of course if someone tried to run me over I would probably unload on them too (hopefully with better accuracy). But the NYPD isn't suppossed to use lethal force against a vehicle and they stated they thought they were being shot at.

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from KANE wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Unfortunately this a case where a few idiots make the rest of a fine bunch of policemen look bad. Kinda of like when someone leaves a loaded gun out for his 3 year old to play with.

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from John Ludovico wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Although it APPEARS that this shooting was an over-reaction on the part of the police, until you become a NYC police officer & walk the beat, best to keep your lips zipped. While no one wants excessive force used, there may be times when your life is in danger & the terror of the moment causes an unfortunate result. We weren't there so we're not in a position to judge EXACTLY what happened.

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from Jtamethyst wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

That's what you get when they have an anti-gun, anti-business, spying mayor in NY.

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from Jenks wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

If someone tried to run me over and ram my vehicle, I would unload on them also and I'm not a cop. Certain groups of people in our society don't listen to police commands. And it seems like it ALWAYS is the same group !

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from FISCHERHUNTS wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

The "unarmed" guys were using their CAR to try to run over the Officer. Most of the facts are being left out by the Main Stream Media. A car is a pretty BIG weapon if you ask me.

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from Matt wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Naturally, if there was even one case where a civilian gun owner unleashed half as much lead, every anti-gun politician on the Potomac would want them to be burned at the stake and the ATF immediately go door-to-door like some sick halloween. But if the coppers do it... business as usual. I've always wondered how Sarah Brady could say only police are responsible enough to carry firearms and say it with a straight face. Must have a pretty strong anti-giggle reflex.

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from Dave Petzal wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

To Concerned Soldier: As I recall, the first rule is to achieve fire superiority. I would call 50 to 0 a pretty good effort.By the way, a gun dealer friend of mine tells me that a major handgun manufacturer is coming out with a 9mm NYPD Model automatic. It holds 32 rounds in a drum magazine, much like the one that was available for the Luger. Fairly awkward to carry, but should eliminate those embarassing pauses for reloading.

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from Firehand wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Few years ago we had a shoot in Oklahama City that hit this level. A armed robbery or attempted murder suspect(can't remember which offhand) was spotted in a Denny's. Several plainclothes officers got a booth across from him and, when everyone around him had left, did the "You're under arrest" business. He reached for a gun.Range of about 8-10 feet, 42 rounds fired as I recall. Don't remember the hit ratio, but wasn't real good.

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from Concerned_Soldier wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Dave,We now call it, "SUPPRESIVE FIRE"Good Stuff, keep up the good work!V/RC_S

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from Peter C wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Bloomberg is a RINO (Republican In Name Only). He might be slightly to the right of Ted Kennedy, but not by much. I suppose that now he could say that this incident proves that not even the police should have firearms. When you have as much money as Bloomberg, the media and all your associates are not likely to be willing to call you an a$$hole.

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from Mark wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s political career hit the wall over this disturbing event. Doubt he or his anti-gun agenda will go any further now. Is Bloomberg a Republican????Unfortunately, the real issues aren’t so much the mechanics [50 plus rounds fired in promiscuity], but the social-political policies existing that allowed such event to occur. Can’t wait to see how the Bloomberg Administration glosses over this event trying to escape accountability where the “good guys” and their knuckles blasted three un-armed Voters that don’t seem to have been breaking any laws.

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from A. S. Moeggs wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

If NYPD would use a .40 or.45, I think they would discover fewer rounds would be needed. If a bad guy tried running me down with his car, I would be unloading my gack also!

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from Gflyz wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Terrifying. 50 rounds at unarmed people - who were IN a car! Tells me two things - the NYPD needs to learn how to shoot and the survivors are incredibly lucky. I smell a lawsuit - which Taxpayers will have to foot the bill for.We need to tell Ray that their officers need some serious firearms training.

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from O Garcia wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

And I thought those Hollywood gunfights are bad. Fact is stranger than fiction, indeed.

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from KJ wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

While it is too early and too few details are known to make an accurate judgment, it is hard to imagine the need for 50 rounds being fired. 31 by one officer? Geez - it's bad enough when you need a gun to defend yourself from the crooks. It's starting to sound like you might need to carry one to defend yourself from the cops, too.

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from Corie P wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Dave,I believe this goes back to a previous blog you wrote about making the police force go back to the revolver. I was going to write about this same story in my blog, but you beat me to it. Couldn't have said it much better.Maybe we should suggest the police load the first 5 or 6 shots in their magazines with blanks. Since it seems they're firing for effect anyway.THe word on that story was that the car rammed two uncover police cars before attempting to flee the scene. I hope if I ever get into a fender-bender with a police car I have a kevlar vest on.

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from craig curtis wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

NYPD. you gotta love em but i think they could use a little andy of mayberry medicine . give them one barny bullet and they may appreciate it much more when they shoot it . how much does it cost to ship a box of bullets ?? i dont think anybody here is up for this expencive joke !!!

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from jstreet wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Three cops shot 50 times and only killed one unarmed man? They definetly need more training and ammo so maybe the next time they can kill all three unarmed suspects. Holy crap!!!!!jim

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from PbHead wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Shipping ammo to the NYPD is wasteful. First, they must learn when to shoot. Second, they must learn how to shoot effectively. Going back to revolvers might prove helpful. Limiting the amount of ammo a NYPD officer can carry might help. Hey, where are all of those ten round clips Hillary and her ilk thought were so great? Here is a market for what many considered scrap metal and might also serve a useful social and political purpose.

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from ray wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

whut peter c said...

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from Peter C wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Kee-rist...the last thing the NYPD needs is more ammo!

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

I agree w/Dave, in that one cannot judge the event since we were not there, but it certainly seems that a few NYPD cops have caused one giant cluster *uck of a political storm. I plan on keeping my ammo, but I will gladly send the commissioner the latest issue of my "Cheaper then Dirt" ammo catalog.

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from ford wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Not only are the prices of ammo supplies going up, we have idiots in NYC uisng it all up before the average hand loader is going to get to the stuff. I REALLY need to stock up now.

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from Archerwvu wrote 7 years 20 weeks ago

Perhaps Ray Kelly should be making sure his "sharpshooters" are using UMC or Wolf ammo.Hard to fathom.

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