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January 18, 2008

Our Most Underrated Cartridge?

By David E. Petzal and Phil Bourjaily

But to truly take advantage of the .280, you have to handload. Despite its designation it uses .284-inch (7mm) bullets, which gives you a huge selection to choose from. It can also take heavier bullets than the .270. Factory ammo is loaded with 140-, 150-, and 160-grain bullets, and all will do fine for you. The type of bullet is more important than the weight.

Handloaders can use any of these, but the one that is not factory loaded is the 175-grain. A 175-grain Swift A-Frame, for example, will shoot through two moose and kill a porcupine on the far side.

For a lot of years I've hunted with 140-grain Nosler Solid Bases and the old 160-grain Nosler screw-machine Partitions. The former is a quick-expanding slug for deer, the second a much tougher projectile for bigger game. For you handloaders, I've had by far the best results with RelodeR 19 and IMR 4831 powders.

If you have a .270 you don't need a .280. However, independent market research shows that .280 owners are better looking, make more money, get better trophies, and live longer than .270 owners. You read that here first.

Comments (377)

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from Warren Petoskey wrote 5 years 33 weeks ago

I am looking at a Swiss Mauser 6.5x55. There are places I hunt where a long shot (300 yards) is possible. I shoot from a rest and was a sniper in a CERT unit in another life, so I know how to shoot. What are some good loads for the 6.6x55?

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from Edward J. Palumbo wrote 5 years 38 weeks ago

Michael,I wanted to voice my appreciation of the 6.5 x 55mm. My first opportunity to use one was in the late '60s, and it was a good first impression - a friend's sporterized M96 Mauser equipped with a receiver sight that that performed accurately. Others I tried over the years had one virtue in common: accuracy. Since the late '70s, I've had two 6.5x55s; one built on a Rem 700 long action with a sporterweight barrel, another a rebarreled Model 1909 Argentine Mauser with a heavier (varmint contour) barrel, used primarily on targets. Both rifles were gratifyingly accurate. Why this cartridge hasn't received a better reception in the USA is a mystery to me. Those who own rifles chambered for this cartridges are usually fiercely loyal to it. I've also had two rifles in .257 Roberts, often recommended as a good choice for the recoil-conscious. Objectively (and not surpisingly), the 6.5mm easily outperformed that cartridge. I'd say you made an excellent choice.Good shooting,Ed

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 42 weeks ago

Capstick,Just got back from the dark continent. Glad to hear you did so well. Took my '06, shot 2 rogue elephant and a cape buff. just for the hell of it. Cheerio chap!

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from Capstick wrote 5 years 42 weeks ago

I once killed the Big Five plus hippo and croc with the .280, fine cartridge.

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from Mr. Smith wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

Dave, I've got to ask this, can you give concrete examples of how "Big Jack" was such a A$$hole? I talking about close to the source stories, not BS. I always enjoy our writings, all the best...

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from Joe in NC wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

I don't understand what all the hubbub is about. Everyone uses what they're comfortable with regarding noise, recoil, and their perceived notions of how dead their quarry is. I own .270, .280, and .308 chambered rifles, simply because I hunt in North America. ( Bad timing, less than successful familial forefathers, and genetic happenstance kept me from being born into an African-safari-taking family )My little old Remington Sportsman 78, chambered in .308 which I bought through the "Shotgun News" some 25 years ago has never needed more than one shot to dispatch any game animal I've aimed it at. This isn't by any means a premium grade rifle, but it has never failed to stop elk, mule deer, whitetails, and pronghorns right where they stood. In over 30 years of hunting, it's my go-to, one shot, one kill rifle. Common sense will make me go to something bigger if I decide to hunt for big, dangerous game like brown bear, ( call it a desire to survive the encounter, if you will ) but any cartridge that will stop big game from taking another step is enough cartridge, period. There's a reason for the the military using the .308 for so many years. It's simply an efficient round when used with good shot placement, and it works. In my humble opinion, every other cartridge is just as effective in it's own right for it's designed purpose. You guys can blow bigger holes in animals, suffer hearing loss, and hire a live-in chiropractor if you'd like, but the .308 simply does what it was designed to do. It's probably the most overlooked, most maligned, under-popularized round still in production today. Put the round where it's supposed to go, don't shoot beyond your personal ability, observe good firing technique, and watch the animal drop in it's tracks. Don't substitute firepower for skill, or blame your personal inadequacies on your equipment. Nobody will believe you, anyway.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 9 weeks ago

Gary,Don't do that! The whole idea of this blog is for people with the same passions to express ideas and quite often useful information.Dont' get your feelings hurt over Mr. O, everyone gets a little pissed on this site once in awhile.

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from gary wrote 6 years 9 weeks ago

Only read this blog because Serengeti rep. refered me to comments from the show on the their rifle. But, after reading this comment about Mr.Oconner, I am going to cancel my subscribtion to Field&Stream, and never read another. I own both a 270, and a 280, and both are excellent cartridges. But just as Mr Oconner mentioned many, many times, no cartridge is any better than the person shooting it.

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from James Westbrook wrote 6 years 9 weeks ago

I want a Marlin XL-7 in 280. What is the best way to convert?

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from sarg wrote 6 years 9 weeks ago

Clay Thanks for info, But I would never load anything larger than 150 gr. in the .308 unless it would be 168gr. HPBT.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

SargThe heaviest bullet I’ve seen loaded in a 308 Win was a 220 grain. A couple of shooters at Eielson AFB Alaska were playing around 250 grain Barnes in 30-06 and 300 Win Mag. Those 250 round noses had a glide path of a rock at Fairbanks International Airport because of the round nose.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Clay have you ever heard of anyone loading a heavy bullet in the .308 win.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Guys, from all the exp. and readings I've ever come up with, the .308 Win, By saying this I mean the Cart. not the bullet , can do any thig the 06 can do up to and including the 150 gr. Now there may be some loads where a .308 may do better than the 06but the the right loads I don't think so. With the heavier bullet the 06 of course has the advantage of greater case capacity , thus can use a slower burning powder. I agree with clay, the .308 win with the 165gr match or the 190 gr,. may do great at targets,but this bullet should not be suitable for hunting. I don't believe it will hold together for a good kill on larger game.. It like the old question, which burns faster, regular gas or high octaine.. the regular burns faster thus begins to lose energy quicker than High octane. put this in the same respect with the available powders and their burn rate. If any of you are familar with steam engines you should know that steam expands 1700 times it vol. creating a longer power push on a piston than a lot of other energy sources. Why does a gear driven steam locomotive pull 13% grades while the standard rod steam engine can only pull 3% grades..Clay knows why they inject distilled water in a B-52 engine for greater thrust..

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

The 8x57 is indeed underrated since it is underloaded by most manufacturers and load tables due to the old rifles around that aren't up to snuff for higher pressures.But to say the 8x57 outperforms the .30-06 is simply not the case. If it were, the competitive shooters and handloaders would be all over it, which they are not.

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from O Garcia wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

if by "our" you mean an American cartridge, then I would have to say the .300 Savage or .257 Roberts should win the most underrated award.but if the cartridge could be of any origin, as long as it is available here, then my choice would be the 8x57. Compare its "WW2" ballistics with the .30-06, the German round with its smaller case actually outperforms the bigger '06 (remember, World War 2 numbers, with the .30-06 only making 2,700 fps with only a 150-grain bullet).The 8mm will really do everything. And it is practically dead.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

sarg By the way, like I said before the 190 BTSP is better all the way out to and past 1000 yards than the 7mm Rem Mag with a 175 grain. That was Mr. Joyce W. Hornady innovation of a fine projectile :)

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

YooperJack, the 308 has a nickname, 30-06 short! 30-06 shoots the same given bullet about 175-200 fps faster, giving you more knock down power and flatter trajectory. But I really don't think the critter you shoot will know the difference to be honest with you! Besides, the #1 error a hunter makes in bullet choice, is using too heavy of a bullet! 130 grain will knock a Caribous $%^ in the dirt which translates to having plenty of knock down for the biggest and baddest monster buck!

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Sarg: Some sites back you mentioned about hunting in Montana. I love that state an the longer season. Jut wish I cukld stay the full 5 weeks or till fill all my tags. Also you mentioned about KY. Do you live in KY? if so can you give me a few details on applying for a license for Elk up there. I;m getting too old to go 2800 miles to hunt, need to be closer to N.C. if possible. Any info you can supply on how to get a tag, guide, wher to go etc. I would appreciate it. And yep, I;m the 06 guy who continues to preach about their ability. I did yesterday pace a order for one of the new Marlins in 270. I want to see for myself the difference on game.Naw, just want a excuse to purchase another new gun. I kinda figure at my age (73) I better buy what I want and can affod now, as fewe hunts left in these old bones. But I cannot think of any medication thats works as well as a few days out in the country side. Back to MT. What a thrill it is to sit at l0K feet at Lolo pass and watch the lower portion of Lolo Creek. If game comes by great, but just to get out there on a cold Am and see gods creatures is worth all the $$$ in the US mint. I am disabled and must sit and hunt, but can walk about l00 yds off the road and hid behind a huge pine. Been going for many years, have goten game each year. I also like Colorado but don;t like their short 5 to 7 day seasons, plus a Bull an Deer tag about 200.00 more than Montana. And for Lopes, WY the place to go and for Mulies go to Nebraska but stay back in the farm area away from the creeks, as the W-tails taken over them. O any place in the Rockies great to be when hunting time comes. But would like info on Elk in KY if you will please. Thanks the Old Gunslinger down South in N>C>

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

sargThe 308 is great in my book up to 162/172 grain bullets. Anything heavier, you really need a 06! I don’t know where they are getting the idea that the 308 is more accurate than the 06? The only advantage I see is the reduced recoil. The next time someone is shooting prone, stand directly behind the shooter. Upon firing/recoil of the rifle, you will see a shock wave travel the length of the shooters body to his toes and back up his body.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

If I remember correctly, someone asked, either in this blog or the last, whether to buy a 308 or a 30-06. No one answered for a while so I responded that 30-06 would use bigger bullets. I was castigated by a couple of people. Same Dia. Same bullets. NowSarge, you're saying that you can load bigger in the 06?YJ

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from sarg wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Clay in a post a little earlier, you were talking about the 190 gr. .308 bullets, that my friend is the advantage the 30-06 has over the .308 win. Good post.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

PS270 130 grain is hell on Caribou!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Mtn Hunter270 out west witha 130-140 grain pill will do the job!

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Clay:Amen brother and thanks for satisfying my curiosity.TW, Flip, and other interested in the 6 x .284:If you get Versus channel on Dish or Direct TV tune in for this week's version of BEST OF THE WEST. You will see one of my neighbor John Porter's hunters shoot another ram (this time at just over 400 yards) with the 6 that John built for himself but everyone else uses. I believe you will find it interesting, besides they are hunting in my country.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Ok you guys. I;ve preached for ever about the 30-06 and I continue to think it's the one gun of choice, but after reading today in Shooting Times about the new Marlin Bolt gun, I gotta have one of those. With several 06's I;ve ordered a 270????? now will see if it's up to a 06 out west. Really, I wanted a haul about gun IN blk syn/blue bbl that looked ok and after reading about the Marlin decided to spend a tad more and find out if the 270 is as good as you guys say. I may be sorry when I don;t down that big Elk, but will see. I will take the 06 as a primary hunting gun, but if weather is foul, will try the 270. Now unless some gun Co comes out with another must have gun, I think I got all I will use in my remaining years. Just need to go West this fall and try the new gun out. Now got to buy another scope, rings, etc. Never ends does it. But for a nice rack or a great day out in the wide open space, can;t think of a better way to enjoy life and spend a little $$. Yep, one other thing, just pray will br around for next season to come around. Shoot-um-straight and often.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Ishawooa, the other night, I looked a t Norma’s home page to see what changes that they might have made in the past 34 years. Like all the rest in general, nothing has become of them. Still got the Ol’Norma’s round nose like those 130 grain 30 cal that had a steel jacket. Only loaded 100 of them and wasn’t impressed with them, at all. It seems obvious to me that there are those, as long as they sale something that is mediocre they are content like the other hand me down companies to their affiliated, born with, congenital, consanguine, consanguineous, genealogical, inborn, inbred, inherited, innate, lineal, maternal, old, past, paternal, totemic, tribal. Of all of this, no matter how you slice it and dice it, something that made it good of the past, gets lost!

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from sarg wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Dr.Ralph, ugly women make better lovers, because when they make love they put all they got in it thinking it may be their last, same as older guns, you can alway do better with a gun you are not afraid to use ...

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Jim in MO / DelI was me, WA Mtnhunter, that posted the .35 Whelen comments. As for the Nosler Ballistic Tip BT, it is an inadequate bullet for elk or large game. The folks at Superior Ammo advised me against the NBT several years ago when ordering a sample box of various loads. The TBBC and Swift A-Frame take advantage of the .35 Whelen's ballistics. I would be afraid a NBT would come apart at close range on a large bear or elk.I'm sure the 200 grain Core Lokt is more than adequate for deer and black bear, although I have not shot one head of game with it. I have only used Conley's 225 gr SAF and Federal 225 gr TBBC. I get an average of 2616 fps from a 22 inch barrel. The Nosler Customs promise 2725 or similar, but chronograph about 2620 in my rifle. The Partitions don't shoot as well either.The 225 TBBC from Federal has gotten it done for me. I don't shoot the Whelen enough to justify my time handloading. I spend most of my handloading time with my .257 Roberts and .358 Winchester.

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from 007 wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Sorry for the late entry on the .35 Whelen. I printed this discussion off to read it in the "reading room" and just saw the Whelen info. No knock on the Whelen whatsoever but some of you may remember seeing my previous entries in other F&S blogs about the rifle I'm having built. I did a lot of reading and research and thought long and hard about a Whelen but settled on the .338-06, better bullet selection with higher BC as a rule, and better performance at longer distance, longer than for what I am qualified, I'm sure, with a 200 gr. Hdy. interlock. Just FYI, I have to agree too with the .257 Rbts. fans as I have a Ruger Ultralite in that cal. that weighs all of 6 1/4 #, thrives on handloaded 120 gr. Remington Corelokts (morons at Big Green had to go and discontinue them after I found a good load for my gun) and carries like a willow switch in the hand. On a seperate topic, is there ANYBODY AT ALL running for pres. that we can trust on the 2nd amendment? At this point it reminds me of going into a nice buffet and finding nothing but baloney. Good hunting, all.

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from Del in Kansas wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Oh and I used the Speer 250 gr hotcore handloaded.

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from Del in Kansas wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Jim and Unknown.As you probably know the Whelen and the 350 Rem mag are ballistic twins. Also I might add the 350 gets it done in a lighter shorter package.Anyway, Alaska has a wild herd of bison near Delta junction. When I was stationed at Fairbanks a guy I new used a Rem Mod 6oo in 350 mag to take a large bull with the factory 200 grain core lokt bullet. He had the bullet and it was a perfect mushroom. I myself shot everything except caribou with a Mod 700 classic in 350 with outstanding results.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph,I didn't mean to imply the Whelan was handloading only I was speaking of the 210 BT. I haven't seen that one offered loaded.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph:To further validate your statement regarding the .22 LR I offer the following: An old rancher friend in Montana and I were sitting in his gun room one cold afternoon watching football. This gunroom made most gunstores appear somewhat lacking in comparision. Out of the clear I asked him if he only could take one rifle to defend, survive, and enjoy which would it be. Without hesitation he walked over and picked up a nice but well used Model 41 Winchester. He replied "This one and a brick (of .22 LR ammo)". It is difficult to bring forth a valid argument against such a choice even though the rancher friend was well aware that I included big game hunting in the question.Clay:I have had no experience with Norma bullets other than noticing them on the shelves. Is it your opinion that the magnet would be equally applicable to other bullets they manufacture? I suppose I could research it but figure you know the answer off the top of your head.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

To try to bring some semblance of an argument over "Our Most Underrated Cartridge" in this blog which was apparently named that for no good reason having read through the posts... 22 Long Rifle and I defy any man to argue this point..35 Whelen for hand loaders only? I don't roll my own but can buy 310 gr. Woodleigh Welcores and 250 gr. Nosler Partitions from Midway or 250 gr. Swift A-Frames from Conley Precision Cartridges.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

I believe Remington is caught between the 35 Whelen and 350 Mag. I think Remington's heart is with the 350 Mag although the cartridge and concept died on the vine.It's no trick to boost velocity to 2700+ handloading the Whelen with any 225 grain bullet for me. I found all 225 grain 35-cal bullets are fine. If a hunter wants to hunt the hairy, mean/big stuff, the 250-grain bullet is the way to go in 338-cal and in 35-cal. I find no reason to load a lighter bullet for big game in a medium-bore rifle.Why major manufacturers salt the deck on the 35-Whelen and 338-06 is a mystery.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

To unknown on your post to me,Its very adequate for whitetail, mule deer, blackbear. Nosler even has a 210gr ballistic tip specifically for the Whelan. Its a handloading propsition only.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

To unknown on your post to me,Its very adequate for whitetail, mule deer, blackbear. Nosler even has a 210gr ballistic tip specifically for the Whelan. Its a handloading propsition only.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

I remember spilling a box of 130 grain soft point bullets at a gun store. The owner picked them up with a magnet. The brand name? NORMA!

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Jim in MOThe .35 Whelen 225 gr TBBC load is a game getter. I have taken numerous elk and mule deer at ranges out to 264 yards without issues. Hopefully they will continue to make this load. As many rifles that Remington chambers in .35 Whelen, I can't understand why they don't make a Swift A-Frame or other 225 grain load in their Premier line. Is the 200 gr Core Lokt adequate? Big Green must think so.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Flip & TW:I also have chosen to use 140 gr in .270 and .280 plus a load with 150 gr Partitions for the two .280s that groups amazing well. The 7 Rem Mag usually gets 160 gr. while the new custom 7 Ultra fires 168 gr Bergers with a couple brands of 160s that I have not had time to load and test. Berger 180 VLDs are to long for my magazine and throat. The 7-08 likes the 140s also. As I mentioned in a far distant entry I had a 6.5 x .284 back in the seventies and probably have some loads written down for it. It was a tackdriver and death on southern whitetails which is all I ever shot with it. Also had a 6 x .284 but prefered the 6.5I looked over the 6.5 page Flip refers to a few months ago and found it to be extremely informative plus it brought back many pleasant memories. I think it is worth stating again that the long range effectiveness and relative lack of recoil are the reasons that my neighbor, a Wyoming outfitter, has a 6.5 that has killed over seventy Bighorn sheep. A guy who works for me made the 69th kill two years ago. John ranges the shot, dials in the scope, hands the rifle to the client on a bipod who usually makes one shot kills out to 700 yards or so. Other rounds could do the same but John likes the 6.5 x .284 better than anything else for this purpose.

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from Flip wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

T.W.Davidson:Re your request for info on the 6.5-284, go to 6mmBR.com, click on the 6.5-284 Info Page and you'll find more info on building a rifle & loading for that cartridge than you can use. It's designed for long range BR shooters, but other than bullet choices, it's all applicable to hunters. Good Luck.

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from Flip wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ishawooa:Thanks for the quick response, but please don't spend time looking for the details on those loads. I don't load 130's in anything but my .270 and don't use much of them any longer. I've pretty much standardized on the 140s for the .270, 140s-160s in the .280 & .280AI and 160's in the 7mm Mag. Use H-4831 in all of them as I lean toward the heavier bullets in most of my rifles. Speaking of coyotes, I'm still trying to get out to my buddy's ranch in Birney, MT, but don't know if I'm gonna make it. Too damn busy. He tells me they're covered up with em this year. I couldn't make it out for deer season and swore I'd get out this winter and give the coyotes something to laugh at. Too bad pelt prices are so low - do make nice rugs, tho. Thanks again for the help.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Flip:130 grain bullets in all three cartridges. I will have to look through my old notebook to tell you the exact brands and types, I believe Sierras, Hornady, and Noslers. Some I had purchased and a friend gave me several partial boxes of 130s so I decided to spend a few afternoons playing with them. I'll have to get back to you on the info. Let me point out once again that my little custom 7-08 on a pre-Garcia Sako Forrester action (yep my favorite actions are old Sakos, we all have hangups) will do anything in the field that the bigger ones can accomplish within reasonable ranges. I have never shot an elk with it but the neighbor's wife dropped a nice 6 x 6 at about 200 yards using a 140 Nosler Partition at about 2800. The bullet was well placed and the bull had the earth jerked out from under him. I would not hesitate to attempt a similiar shot at a nice bull with my little 7. The kid wants to go look for coyotes this afternoon so I have got to go...too windy and lots of sunshine but who knows

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from Del in Kansas wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Flip,You need a Chronograph. Without one you are guessing about velocity. The slowest burning powder does not always give you the best velocity from a given rifle. It will give you a bigger muzzleblast however. There are some good serviceable chrono's around that are prettry cheap and they work. Chrony is one that comes to mind. I have an Ohler and it really is more equipment than I needed.

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from Flip wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ishawooa:I realize it was early when you posted your comments about H-4831, but you didn't mention what bullet weights or brand you were using. I assume the .270 load was with 130's, but what were the weights for the .280 and 7mm Mag? H-4831 is also one of my favorite powders and I use it whenever possible, but I'm starting to try IMR-7828 and am thinking about trying RL-25 if I can find some locally. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a chrony. You can't beat H-4831 in a .25-06 with 120 gr. Partitions. It's a helluva Mule Deer & Antelope load. And this may sound a little crazy, but YEARS ago I seem to recall reading a RFGW who said you couldn't stuff enough H-4831 into a case to cause dangerous pressure - it was too slow burning. But then I can't remember what I had for breakfast any more, so it may just be my imagination.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

T.W. DavidsonWhen Mr. Joyce W. Hornady was alive, he was inspired to produce the best possible bullets for all shooters. Hers a little secret I do know about him. When the Hornady .308 diameter 190 grain soft point boat tail #3085 was developed, he recognized that this bullet was superior to the 180 grain. He realized that you can push the 190 as fast as the 180 thus gaining more performance from your rifle. Using the 190 SPBT, the 30-06 can shoot flatter and have more foot pound energy that the 7mm Rem Mag's 175 grain all the way out to 1000 yards. When Mr. Joyce W. Hornady passed away, so did Hornady’s innovation and dedication to the Sportsmen.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I know you guys are rolling your eyes and thinking will this guy ever let up.TW:I agree on Hornady as I gave up on them years ago except for one bullet that performs especially well in my old .22-.250. A Wyoming friend felt the need for a 175 Partition many many years ago as he was working up loads for some cartridges for Imperial of Canada based on the 404 Jeffrey case (sound somewhat familiar?). He wanted this bullet for the 7 mm version thinking it would be good moose medicine. Nosler was delighted to visit and correspond with him which eventually lead to marketing the desired product. I am certain that he was not the sole reason for the development but at least they listened to him and others. Good luck as I wish you the best in obtaining success in your quest.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I use H-4831 as much as I can in various cartridges. Looking at my notes I see that for many years I have been able to get about 3050-3200 fps from a .270 Win with 24 inch barrel (again at least six different rifles and two were 22 inchers) using a compressed load of about 61 grains. A near duplicate load in either of my .280s (again with 24 inch barrels) show about 100-175 fps less for the same bullet, same brand brass, primers, etc. By the same token my 7 mm Rem Mag notes indicate that 71 gr of H-4831 yielded 3250 to 3350 fps. This was all with the original H-4831 as it appears that I never performed a comparision utilizing one of the newer versions of the same propellant for 130s or that bullet weight in my '06. 160s seemed to be the best choice for the 7 mm Rem mag for deer and elk but 140s and 175s were never given much of a chance. So I finally decided that I must prefer the .270 over the others based on this small amount of testing which obviously is flawed in a few ways from a scientific basis. I have read other articles where the .280 was closer to my .270 performance but also others that demonstrated no particularly outstanding improvement in velocity in the .280 AI.Concerning the short and fats and the new Ruger/Hornadys, they are sort of cute but I have no need for any version of either species.I do see quite a few hunters, mostly from back east, packing .300 WSM or .270 WSM and they say they are satisfied with them. My friend Wayne sings praises for his .325 WSM but seems intimidated by my .338 Win mag. Each to their own.

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from T.W. Davidson wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

To Clay Cooper . . .Thanks for your response. It seems to me that Mr. Hornady and his company wish to dictate to American shooters and hunters what he thinks we need, rather than listening to what we tell Mr. Hornady and his company what we need, which makes far more sense, and shows respect for his/its customer base, rather than the disrespect that Mr. Hornady showed you and showed me.I think Hornady's Ruger Compact Magnums (RCM) are a perfect example of a (contemptous to Hornady's customer base) answer to a problem that has never existed and doesn't exist now. If Mr. Hornady and his company would simply load the large flock of cartridges that have long served American shooters/hunters/handloaders well--everything from .22 caliber up through, say, the 30-06, and particularly in cartridges that have always traditionally been loaded to pathetically weak pressure levels such as the 257 Roberts and 7x57 Mauser--to the full safe modern-day performance limits of said cartridges (say, 60,000 psi for use in modern bolt actions only), and using Hornady's proprietary and secret powders and powder mixtures--which should be made available to handloaders, and not just via loaded ammo--than all of us shooters/hunters/handloaders would be, dare I say it, almost perfectly content, whether we use barrel lengths of 20" or 22" or 24" or 26" or whatever length we choose--the point being, we, the consumers, choose, not Hornady--to use.Think about it: The RCM cartridges are only available, if at all, in Ruger rifles. RCM ammunition is only available via expensive Hornaday factory loads. In my view, this is Hornady's attempt to push/shovel what he/it thinks American shooters/hunters/handloaders need, rather than what we all ask for and want, which Mr. Hornady and his company, in their arrogance, choose to ignore. What about those of us who might now want to buy a Ruger? What about those of us who want to handload? What about those of us who think the RCMs are nothing more than a fancy marketing gimmick that ignores what real shooters/hunters/handloaders want?I think I'll ask Nosler or Barnes or Berger to produce, say, some 75-grain V-max type bullets in 257 caliber, just to see what the response will be. And I suspect that one or more of these companies will be happy to do so, and that consumers will happily by them in great quantity. I'm done buying any more Hornady products. I encourage all of you who read this to do the same.Let's buy from companies that care about, and respond appropriately to, what their customers want and need.T.W. Davidson

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

T.W. DavidsonI see that you too Sir have had the experience of dealing with the Prodigal Son, Steve Hornady. I wrote him back in 1990, that Alaska needs a 338 Diam 250 grain Spire Point bullet preferably a Spire point Boat Tail and got the same basic response. At that time they only had a 250 grain round nose. What does a person know if they don’t work there and live there 24/7, 365 days a year for 4 years and had a major role of the most major shooting range and contact with hunters alike and a member of the largest sportsman club in Alaska. I find it sadly to say, Steve Hornady is not all there when it come to the needs of his customer base! I put him into the Goober Smootcher category!

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

P.S.After digging thru Federals newest listing they have indeed brought back the original Whelan, 225gr. TBBC 2600fps.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

WAMtnhunter and others,Just got a reply from Federal on the Whelan and they are bringing it back for 2008 with no explanation of the loading.What really interested me was a new loading (to me) of a .370 Sako. They took a '06 case and necked it to .366. Anyone heard about this?

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from T.W. Davidson wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Greetings, Everyone . . .Have any of you handloaders out there done load development for the 6.5-284? Has anyone handloaded both the 6.5-284 and the 260 Remington and done ballistics comparisons between the two rounds? Does anyone have opinions or experience in loading either of the above-mentioned rounds in a long action or medium-length action so as obtain larger overall cartridge lengths and higher velocities?I ask the above questions because I am giving serious thought to building a 6.5-284 (or something similar to it) on a Mauser 98 action.On another note, I recently wrote a letter to Steve Hornady, president of Hornady. I complimented Mr. Hornady on the quality of his dies, the superb accuracy of a number of his Light Magnum (LM) loads and a number of Hornady bullets in different calibers, the high quality of Hornday brass, etc. I gave polite constructive criticism, however, regarding the velocity performance of the 257 Roberts LM load (a 117-grain SST at 2940 fps) and the 280 LM load (unimpressive), and politely pointed out that any reasonably skilled handloader can safely get a 257 Roberts to shoot a 100-grain spitzer at 3200 fps (or higher), and compared the 257 Roberts LM load to Hornady's 6MM LM load (100-grain bullet at 3250 fps). I pointed out the 6MM is based on the 257 Roberts case, and both cases stem from the 7x57 case, meaning that whatever a 6MM Remington can do, a 257 Roberts, with a slightly larger bore in essentially the same case, should do as well or better than the 6MM when loaded to equal chamber pressures. I also suggested that Hornady's 7x57 LM load (139-grain SST at 2830 fps) could be safely improved to 2900-2950 fps (or higher) with the same 139-grain bullet in a 24" barrel, and pointed out that a number of modern day handloading manuals do just that. I then noted that Hornady's 7mm-08 LM load with the same 139-grain bullet goes out the barrel at 3000 fps in a case with less powder capacity than the 7x57 Mauser, and suggested Hornady's 7x57 LM load should at least equal Hornady's 7mm-08 LM load. I then suggested (politely) that Hornady Co. could safely (and therefore should) improve their LM loadings in the 257 Roberts and 7x57 Mauser cartridges as indicated in my letter.(I also said in my letter to Mr. Hornady that I could see no justifiable reason to put a UFC champion in Hornady's 2008 catalog as a marketing ploy for Hornady's new line or Ruger Compact Magnum (RCM)cartridges, since Hornady presented no evidence at all in its catalog to indicate that the UFC champion was an experienced RCM shooter/handloader/hunter who therefore might have an intelligent opinion about the veracity and capabilities of the new RCM cartridges. I said in my letter that Hornady Co.'s marketing staff could do far better than to produce dumbed down advertising to Hornady's prospective customer base and should not treat its customers as if they are incapable of well-reasoned thought or are dumb.)Mr. Hornady wrote back. His letter was short, dismissive, very close to being rude, and, I thought, very arrogant. He expressed what I perceived to be false surprise that I, an attorney, would ever suggest to any cartridge manufacturer that it should "exceed industry standards." (By this I presume he meant SAMMI standards.) As far as I know--and I would appreciate corrections on this if I am in error, SAMMI standards are not laws, are not rules written in stone, and thus there is no reason why an enlightened ammunition manufacturer who actually cares about the needs and wants of its customer base (which apparently Mr. Hornady and his company does not), would fail to produce safe ammunition that performs to its full capabilities, as opposed to producing ammunition that does not reach full perfomance capabilites because of "industry standards" developed in the 1930's, which, 80 years later, is stupid. I personally see no problem at all with any cartridge manufacturer producing ammunition that performs to the safe limits of its abilities, provided the manufacturer clearly states right there on the ammo packaging, in bright, bold language that no one can miss, exactly what the ammunition will do or won't do, and what firearms can and cannot be used with the ammunition in question. Questions or comments? Mr. Petzal, your thoughts? (Perhaps you could do an article about the importance, or lack thereof, of 1930's "industry standards" being used in 2008.)(By the way, I own, among other rifles, a 257 Roberts, 257 Ackley Improved (AI), 270 Win., 7x57 AI and a couple of 280 AIs. I think the most underappreciated cartridge is the 257 Roberts in a 24" barrel, particularly when loaded with a healthy 110-grain Accubond or 115-grain Berger VLD or 120-grain Partition handload.)T.W. Davidson

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

DP will have some good stories when he returns!

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

WAMnthunter,Haven't received my reply from Federal yet but I have a feeling that if they do release a new Whelan it will be loaded with the new TB Tipped. I don't like that because by the listings I see from Federal the Tipped is rated #2 (med game) the TBBC rated # 3(large) game. Kinda defeats the purpose of havin a Whelan.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Dr. RalphI am sure we all know Dave Petzal has a 'real job' that is he gets to hunt and hunt and hunt some more; all to 'test' those 'not so special' rifles he told us about a few topics ago! That and going to the SHOT show and trying hard not to openly drool over the booth babes! Damn we should all have such tough jobs!SA(Awaiting with bated breath the SHOT show edition of F&S!)

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Take Bubba to the Out Back Restaurant and he would order a peanut butter sandwich!I'm sorry, I couldn't help it!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Reloading is like making your own fine wine and not just one but a variety. For all of you fine wine lovers do know that there is a time and place for a specific special wine that suites one person’s mood and taste

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I found a 90% Golden Model 39a at a local gun store last week and immediately bought it for $300.00. It is another way of keeping my kid from wearing out my old 39d that I purchased new at a Walmart in about '71 or '72. I also am concerned about what Big Green will do with Marlin. Oddly enough the serial number of the Golden does begin with a C which is 1946 production except they didn't make Goldens that early. If I disregard the C and only use the numbers the rifle is 1988 manufacture which seems to more closely match the model and condition. Anyone know more about Marlin Model 39 serial numbers? I got my info from a list of what is apparently a defunct Marlin Collector's web site.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

At 73 getting senile also, as can't spell or type/ It's like a puzzle for you guys trying to read what I want to say, Sorry guys, it can happen to anyone of us. Till next time. be happy, shoot a lot.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

As we all state, each hass his pet caliber. When Rem was making the l68 gr Extended range, that was one heck of a knck out. Why the dropped it will never know.Thank goodness I did keep 4 boxes, saving for I DON:T KNOW WHAT. Now I use teh Scricco in l50 or l80 all depends on game I;m hunting. Im 73 ys old, hunted big game since ws 20 and never use but one reload in my life. That one bullet cost me$l80.00 bucks to get rifle re-chambered. Now I buy factory ammo, if I can;t afford a few boxes of ammo per year, then I best stay st home. As statedby me many times, use 2 Remington 700's one a 25-06 thje other a 30-06. Either does a gret job on game it's intented for. But, when I;m huntng both Mule Deer and Elk, I use l80's rather have more than needed than less than needed. No suprise, we all could use more pratice, or at least I could, get kinda rusty during teh cold winter months. We live in teh country and I do shot whenever i want to, but am a warm blooded guy at 73 and love the warm heat. Never owned a 270, but gonna try one that Marlin has just released if it's the same quality of their 39 and 336. Just hope and pray that Remington don;t screw up with MArlin as they did with EAAand teh other Co's they bought out. ass this new owner is only a invester, doubt they even know what end of the gun a bullet comes out of. So they gonna cut quality to make the $$$$. Remington did 500 Million in sales in 2006, this new groupe insist they dble that to l billion by end of 2009???? so where is the $ coming from if not cheaper parts. I got a 30-06 Custom job ( open sights, 2 leafs on rear, hooded front, solid rib l/4 l/4" from breech to buzzle, dble set triggers at 12 oz made in Germany/Italy and it will make a BDL or CDL look like a Daisy 22 rim fire if you recall how they looked when they hit the streets. They even use cheapo beer cans. So if you guys even thinking of a newe Rem. better buy now. Check ut Wal-mart's line of ADL's @300.00, yep, 300 bucks, see if you think its the same old trusty ADL as of a few years back. When you loose quaity back, you gonna loose your base customes, as many good rifles out there jst as god as Rem. I;ve used a Rem because it fits me, I;m a small guy and the Rem in any caliber is like an extention of my arm when I throw up the gun to fire. At my age of 73,I got enough 700's and Auto's to last my remaining hunting days, but will try this new MArlin 270 if it looks as it should. D you recal the EAA s x s dbe rifle that emington bught out? why have they not put on the market yet? They only wanted t get that gun out of production, as price as near $600.oo for a beautiful walnut firearm, that had a Jack screw for the left bbl to 0 with the right bbl. O how I wish had bought one before Rem took over.Another dumb mistake. I contine to check all gun shops and pawn shops hoping I find one in 30-06. Shoot-um-straight and often as you can. What's a little sub-0 weather to us gun nuts.

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from Dr. John J. Woods wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

And don't forget the 280 before it switched to the 7mm Express Remington was also called for a very short time the 7mm-06 which you can imagine did not last very long. Any rifle so marked was an instant collector's item.

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from Mike K. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey Clay, congrats on the 22 pump, must be an old one, the new ones are so expensive, been cheaper to keep the Ex-wife!! Happy Hunting!!

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from m nelson wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

BUBBA,GUESS WE ALL HAVE OUR OPINIONS. ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE WHAT WE USE EITHER WAY. HOWEVER, I THINK WE SHOULD GET AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE SHOOT. JUST PART OF BEING A RESPONSIBLE HUNTER. HAVE A GOOD ONE!

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from Richard wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Some more of Ignored Facts !!A few years ago, I read an article in either Field and Stream or Outdoor Life about a shooting competion and it listed the top 10 finishers in a shooting competion for high powered rifles.The results were 8 shooters were using riflew with the following calibers:a. 8 using Win 308,b. 1 using Win 30-30, andc. 1 some other cartridge, maybee a .284 Dia. bullet.So, if a caliber could corner 10 % of the market, it would be a financial success.Also, why aren't we all out there buying Win. 308's for our Deer rifles ?

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from RICOCHET! wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

So BubbaYou wuss! Keep it simple stupid? You probably have the same old T-shirt on from last month! Lack of variety in your life makes you stale! No wonder you gravitate towards “REAL MEN RATHER THAN WOMEN”! They don’t want you either! LMOA!!!

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Wondered where that funky taste came from Clay C. Thought maybe you hadn't brushed your teeth!Don't have a butt load of powder? You just posted you maintained 5 different powders and were wishing for H280!? C'mon CC! I shoot four different rifle calibers. I load them all with IMR 4895 except the Hornet, it gets Herco 2400. I load 3 handgun calbers. They ALL get Herco 2400! My front-stuffer still gets DuPont FFFg! That other junk don't stink right!K.I.S.S. dude, K.I.S.S.!!!For those of you that don't know: Keep It Simple, Stupid!!On the .243/6mm. M Nelson, you made two statements that are the real key to these lighter rifles. Especially for deer and antelope. One hundred grain bullets and shortest shot possible!Over-rated? I agree with the 7mm Rem Mag, but still think the .243 Win fits the profile also!Clay, leave the dog at home next time!Bubba

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from Richard wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey Ralph,Are you sure David Petzal has another job other than writing for Field and Stream ?It does not surprise me, I think his real job is a "facilitator" !You know, a new profession that does not take any responsibility but just get the experts to open up and shed some real knnowledge on the subject.By the number of Posts, he really got a lot of input on his fiction writing!Have a G R E A T D A Y !

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from Richard wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Attn: GUN NUTSMaybee we all have a little "Wildcatter" in us.Always looking for something a little better!However, I caution you that something "different" is not necessarily "Better"!I have more guns than I can shoot in a year, but I am always in the market for another good one. I have been thinking of watching for a Win. 270, and even thought of the Win. 243.Then I ask myself, would this new rifle be better than my 30-06 Win. Mod. 70 that I have lugged around North America for 46 years ?I guess if someone loaned me a Rem. 280 or 6 mm and asked my opinion, I would go out and shoot it with him for his satisfaction.Diversity is GOOD ! If everyone wanted the same rifle and caliber, the cost of that gun might skyrocket and the ammo would be un-afforable.Happy hunting and safe shooting.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I hope you all realize that this is not Dave's REAL job... He writes for Field & Stream and he has been burdened with us, probably for little or no extra pay. If it weren't for him what would you be doing now? Playing solitaire and looking at ugly naked women more than likely...

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from Richard wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Dear Mr. Petzel,Your opinion of Rem.s 280 goes against about 60 years of experience. Winchester's 270 and 243 have been around a long time and have established their niche with Hunters.As I recall, Remington has brought out so many new cartridges and then quickly discontinued manufacturing ammunition for these cartidges than Remeington would like to admit to.So if hot rod cartridges gets your vote of approval, I could refer you to my friend who sold his 300 Weatherbee Magnum because it causes bullets to pass right through Whitetail deer with our expanding, and not killing the deer.My Model 70 Winchester Featherweignt in 30-06 has got to be one of the best rifles ever made. It shoots 1 MOA groups with Winchester Factory Ammo at 200 yards. And, the ammo for this popular caliber (like the Win. 270 and 308) is very reasonable. My preference is just to buy more Ammo, and not spend hundreds on a new rifle that will take more costly ammunition.Like Robert Ruark said "Use enough gun" for the game that you are hunting.

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from RICOCHET! wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

D. MannWhat happened to DP? Besides I think we are doing a good job ourselves!

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from D. Mann wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I think it's time for you guys to start lookin for a replacement for petzal. he's outlived his usefulness!!!!

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Mike K.The fella the X married gave me an old 22 pump. I got the better deal!YA YA spell check!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Mike K.The fella the X married gave me an old 22 pump. I got the bitter deal!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

The Ol’Man…..On a Mountain upon highAn Ol’man hunter standsreaches outtouchesthe face of God!

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from Mike K. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Had a Sako Tikka .270 years back, with a Burris 2.5-10 Signature on it, and dropped the 10th biggest buck in the state that year, used handloads IMR4350 with Nosler Partition 150grain, buck was shot at over 200 yards, it dropped and did'nt even kick. Had a Winchester classic few year back, walnut stock, stainless barrel, 7mm mag, was purt near as pretty as I am, only buck I ever shot with it kicked up its heels and ran, and I had to track it, was too much gun. Had to sell both of them due to financial constraints at that time, (read divorce), ex said it was either hunting or her, sure miss that Sako! I'm sure everyone has their own personal preference as to what calibers to use. The .270 has always been my favorite around here for deer hunting and reloading, shooting. But, to each his own. Happy hunting and shooting!!

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from Chuck Atley wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Seems to me that the 280 gets compared to the 270 way more than the 7mm Mag. The reasons I went with the 280 were the availability of heavier factory-loaded bullets than the 270 and the ballistics nearing the 7 Mag in certain loads. Remington manufactured a 165 grain Extended Range load that mirrored 7 Mag ballistics; it was overkill for deer, but worked nicely on elk and bear. 150-gr Federal Classics work wonderfully on deer.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ishawooa, you got me seriously thinking. What bothers me the most is, the future for the Sportsmen? There are those like the Ol’Man that few of us know. In fact, the few of us actually followed the Ol’Mans footsteps learning by listening and following his teachings. Then there are those that have no teachings at all, commonly known as doubting Tomas’s!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

m nelsonIf you think I’m debunking the 243/6mm Sir, you have my most humble apology! The reason I don’t use it is because I wanted to fill the void between 22-250 and 30-06. I have tons of 30-06 match brass to make 25-06 and the areas I used it was a bit windy. I have tons of 308 military match brass that I can make 243. Laying all jokes aside, I’ve taken more deer with my 22-250 than all my rifles combined without a single loss!The 6mm Remington is NO PUNK!

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay:I know the same ole hunter that you spoke of, different name and location, but same guy in spirit. When he was too old to ride horses any more he had his 50 year old son haul a Lazy Boy recliner to the trail head. He would sit there for a day or two wishing his younger friends good luck and offering advice on where the elk might be as we departed on a 20 mile horse trip to camp. He owned a M-70 in '06 which he purchased in the late forties and never could see why I needed a 7 mm or .338. An article was written about him and three of his bulls in OL back in the seventies. Anyway on the stock of the Winchester someone had carved "THE BIG GUN".I agree with you statements concerning the 7 Rem Mag as I have owned and used several since about 1970. Results were adequate but not spectacular with all loads. The court is still out on the custom 7 Ultra and I won't even go into the shot my kid made back in October because you guys would think I was lying anyway. .338 of any kind will satisfy almost anyone insofar as terminal performance. Like I have said before if my 15 year old kid (now 17) can shoot 20 rounds of hot 225 or 250 grain Noslers off the bench into nice little groups so can anyone else with practice (9 1/2 lb McMillan stocked pre-Garcia Sako Finnbear action, Shilen barrel, Leupold 3.5x-10.5x, Decelerator pad, no brake).

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from m nelson wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Noticed that several of you feel the 243/6mm is a poor round for deer and antelope. Probably at best a personal preference but, believe you're way off base in denigrating these calibers. Have hunted deer and antelope in Montana for over 40 years and for most of that time have used either a 243 or 6mm. I believe they are exceptional rounds for antelope and quite acceptable for deer (mule and whitetail). Probably have harvested over 100 antelope and deer with them and have never had a problem. Of course shot placement has to be right. Don't like long shots and avoid them if possible but have taken antelope and deer at over 300 yards with excellent results. I don't reload and always use 100 grain factory loaded ammo. The only thing I've noticed is that the 6mm seems to have a bit more punch than the 243 at longer ranges. Just a personal observation. Don't see alot of difference between the 2 ballistically. Like I said, its just a personal preference and really don't care enough to get excited over it. BTW, bought my first 308 this year. Didn't need it as I don't hunt anything but deer and goats but am really impressed with it and the gun (Rem Model 673). Its my first Remington and must say it was well built. From what you folks are saying about Rem, maybe I was just lucky. I'm small statured and it fits me and handles wonderfully. Wasn't too enamored with the vent rib, but darned if it doesn't seem to cool the barrel a bit faster. Anyway, my 2 cents.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay,I forgot. Tell your beertender the next one's on me!WA Mtnhunter

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

ClayThe "bass fiddle" comment was priceless. Once I commented about the shooting skill, or lack thereof actually, of a particular guy that hunted with us a few years ago with the phrase "He couldn't hit a bull in the butt with a bass fiddle".The guy didn't get it.... He asked, "What do you mean by that?"I replied, "Just visualize it. Here's YOUR sign."Clay, you keep me chuckling most of the time. Even though I have not always agreed with you, I appreciate your wit and wisdom. (Hand salute)Cheers

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Actually Bubba, I don’t have a butt load of powder of different kinds. I may have a butt load to load of one kind of powder that I can use in several rifles. The only powders I do use and know that they give the maximum performance is WIN748, IMR4895, IMR4064, IMR4350 and IMR4831. H870 I can no longer get, so I dump the last quarter pound and let a match to it. Working up loads, I know what will work even before I load it and by the way, try H110 in your 22 Hornet you’ll be glad you did!About the 7mm Rem Mag? It is the most overrated cartridge ever to hit the shelf! A heavy bullet that is too narrow to leave a large wound channel thus lacking in hydrostatic shock, odds are it will tumble upon impact, kicks like a mule, no real advantage over a 30-06 with heavy loads and it[‘s appeals mainly to the feeble minded fad got to have it that believes anything. I’ve personally witnessed more dear lost with the 7mm than a 30-30! The hunters that like the 7mm and 300 mags in Alaska, once they taste their firsts kill with a 338 never go back! Besides, I sold the 300 Win Mag and replaced it with a 25-06 and never regretted it! 7mm Rem Mag does a fantastic job up to 162 grain bullets!By the way Bubba, you’re dreaming again. That was your mangy old Poodle giving you that kiss!

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from KJ wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Most underrated? I'll vote for the plain jane .30-30. It's too old, too slow, too light, doesn't shoot far enough or flat enough, blah blah blah. (On the other side of the coin - most overrated cartridge - I'd vote for the 7mm Rem. mag. It's little more than a .280 that kicks.)

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Seems like Ole EddieJ stirred the pot a bit! Love it!Love my '06 too, much like Ishawooa's friend's rifle; mine is a late iteration Winchester M 70 with synthetic stock and Deerfield 3x9 scope bought used for less than it costs to fill the gas tank on your big ole pick'm'up truck. I intend to swap the scope out for a better quality 4x but otherwise it is as it came, if I do my part the first three of most any factory loads touch out to 100 yards, Remington CoreLok 150 gr seem to center closest to my point of aim. Yes I have a couple other rifles but that one comes with me most often; I am confident it will get the job done!Stir on!SA

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from archer wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

"It's like what kind of taste you have for Woman Sir!"....Well give me a powder with big boobs.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

By the way sargI use Herco 2400 for my .22 Hornet and handguns and IMR 4895 for all other metallic cartridges!One powder, NO MISTAKES!Bubba

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Naw Clay C. I was waiting for you to give me my morning kiss. You know how I am before I get my coffee and kiss.Yep, around 2900 fps is a real good velocity for the .270. Apparently for lots of other cartridges too!sargAs far as different powders. I load for several different firearms and calibers. One of my requisites is finding a "powder" that fits quite well with all calibers. That way, I don't have to worry about which powder to shoot in which caliber and which firearm. THAT'S one of the pleasures of handloading! I have seen rifles that would shoot one powder very well and the next okay but not so well. Just like raising or lowering powder charges by .25 grain until you find what the gun likes!It's personal preference. I bet Clay C. has a butt load of powder and when he's developing a load, he leaves the bench with fifty rounds and ten different loads with almost as many different powders, primers, etc., etc.......I LOVE IT!!!!Bubba

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

by the way Sir Ed, I've seen cleaner kills on Caribou and Moose with a 30-06 than any other rifle

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ed JYour dead wrong Sir, I would ask three main questions. 1 what is the largest game you plan to hunt, 2 what part of the country and 3 how recoil sensitive are you? Then I would go from there. A 25-06 and a 338 Win Mag can cover it all.But for myself if I would must have only one, a 30-06 will do!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

IshawooaYour remind me of an old story of a silver haired hunter caring a weathered old model 721 30-06, high above the timberline. A true master hunter he is, time has gone and so is he but his spirit lives there high on the mountain top walking those ridges

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Since I am obviously on the '06 bandwagon (although I rarely use it due to the boredom it yields) I would like to finalize with the following. A friend here in Wyoming has hunted all over North America. He has a room full of trophies ranging from bobcats to two Kodiaks including several near 400 point bull elk, numerous high scoring whitetails, several typical and non-typical mulies, a few lopes, three of the sheep since he has never drawn a desert tag, black bear, moose, mountain goat, well you get the picture. Yep he has one rifle and it is an '06 and nope he does not reload. All the money I spent on rifles, components, and reloading equipment he put toward hunting trips. What kind of .30-'06 does he have? It appears to be a seventies or eighties vintage S & W marked Howa with an equally as elderly or even older Redfield Widefield 2x-7x. He picked the rig up in a pawn shop back in the eighties. I have a rifle that costed about as much as his old pickup is worth. However it will never kill all the animals that Bill has shot with what I consider an old piece of shxt. I most likely can supply a photo of the man, his '06, his trophies, and a notorized statement as to the authenticity of all. Thus if you only have an '06 it can be done, maybe better by other cartridges in some situations, but the job can be done. He swears that he has never shot a magnum anything and can't spell Weatherby. This is really difficult for a magnum lover like myself to swallow but I know it is absolutely true. GULP

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Rocky Mtn HunterWhat I do know about hunting dangerous game, especially in Alaska with a handgun. You must remove the front sight Sir. When that baarswipes it out of your hand and shoves it up your but, that big bladed front sight you can use for a plow to cultivate crops is hell on the hemorrhoids! :)

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from Ed J wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

ClayNo, I use a Trumpet.Like the rest of the windbags that hangout here I have several rifles , shotguns ,pistols and bows. When you have a 25-06 and a 338 What do use need the 30-06 for.BTW if a newbie ask what to use for hunting deer etc. the first word that will probably come out of my mouth will be 30-06.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Sargguns digest certain powder more readily than others? Due to manufacturers tolerances, type of action to be used, the specifications of the loads and other variances such as temperature by the consumer. Take IMR4831 I don’t recommend it at all for semi auto rifle period, but I do recommend IMR4895, IMR4064 and WIN748 that works excellent!And the event of a Law Suit!

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

If a 30-06 put in the correct Vitals won;t bring your animal down, then you need to take shooting lessons with a Red Ryder BB gun. There is no game in N America that a 06 will not put down other than maybe a Brownie or charged up Grizz with cubs. If hunting those Bears I want a back up guide who can handle a Cannon, plus I will carry my sawed offf 12 dble as a side arm and stick it in his mouth and pray both trigges go off. All these stories we read about Aricia and a shotgun, that shotgun is not for birds, its for that dangerous Buffalo you missed. Legal or not, my life don;t know the regs on bbl lengths, just what the damage it can do. If was leaving fo Africia in AM would take my Custonm 06, my Fox 12 ga, with 28" bbl and my 44 -40 side arm, then after I shoot at the bench for 0, I want the guide to do the same,. With the 06, would take many different wts, from l25 to 220. Any one got a free pass, as that trip would cost a bundle. So will just hunt the Rockies on friends property and then here at home for 5 weeks, plus a week in January for Turkeys, yes Turkeys in Jan, either sex.???? Now you can freeze you tail off as was -2 deg Tuesday, Ice this Am and again for remainder of week they say. But who-ever said hunting was a hot weather vacation. Any you guys hunted ELK/Mulies in NM? and do you by chance know the Game Depts e-mail, I;d love to contact them. Time to put this old grey head on a pillow, shoot-um-straight and often, N.C.'s only true Gunslinger

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ed are you using a base fiddle on deer?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

BubbaDid you take a cranky old fart pill today?

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

used by the military that is

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

BubbaYou like your fps range around 2900 fps, have you noticed that practically all the ammunitions loaded from 30 cal to howitzers are in the same fps range?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

sargIt's like what kind of taste you have for Women Sir!

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Dear Ed J.I tend to have a quick temper towards idiots so now that I have cooled down, Sir, YOU ARE AN IDIOT.Learn how to shoot an .06 and thats all you need.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ok guys, answer me a question.... With powder s being as varied as the rifles or people on this blog why do certain people like certain powders when other powder does the same job with the same values but some ar 4or5 grs lower in volumnn. I've seen a lot of different powders listed here and bullets as numerous as the shooters.. Is it what we get started with or do we just like the name or smell??? anyone with the answer? do some guns digest certain powder more readily than others...

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

RICHOCHETPressure don't mean squat 'til them punched out primers look like toadstools!!I don't care about pressure, I don't load hot enough for pressure to be a problem, that is unless I've stuck some sorta goodie down the bore that I'm not aware of. At that point, even my factory-equivalent loads are gonna blow!Gimme a good .270 Win with 130 gr Sierra BTSP with 46.5 grs of IMR 4895. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 2850 to 2900 fps. Ain't failed me yet!Bubba

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from RICHOCHET! wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

MattDon’t compare a 130 grain 270 vs. 308 cal. Smaller the bore, the less volume for gas expansion thus the higher the pressure.HA! HA! Clay I beat you to it!

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from RICHOCHET! wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ed JWhere in the hills, did you come up with that blundering statement? There are those that cannot hit the ground with both feet standing up! If you cannot knock it down with a 30-06, yet alone a 30-30,,,, GO HOME AND STAY THERE! It’s amazing how folks like this can even have kids, go figure!By the way, se ya on the range some day!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Those loads are right out of Hornady Third Edition reloading book. Nothing wrong with compressed loads, as long it doesn’t do any damage and besides, you don’t have to worry about double charge! Lapping a bolt, never done it, I just wear it in!

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

That post was for "7x51"

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from larry wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

did not read all of blog comments, thought I would point out that Cactus Jack talked Carmichal into building that 280./don't know why you have a problem with ol' Jack other than a touch cranky/I like him better than Petzal!

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Bubba:Folks kill elk in Wyoming every day of the season with a .270, '06, etc. and factory loads. If you told them they needed a .300 or .338 and Scirrocos they would think you were crazy and show you about twenty pictures of dead bulls from the last twenty seasons.In fact I am probably one of the oddballs that sees any reason to own more than one or two rifles. I know a local cowhand who has an inherited .257 Roberts on a Mauser action who has killed more elk than anyone I know. He buys his ammo at Walmart, whatever brand and bullet is the cheapest. He just won't listen to me when I tell him he is doing it all the wrong way...

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Guys, the best all around cartridge would have to be the 30-06, next the .308 Win. now the worst? are there really any worst. we use the wrong cartridge on the wrong game with bad results and call it the worst when really it's our lack of knowledge or skill to blame.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Met a guy in Pagosa Spgs, Colo that shot his elk with a .270 Win with 130 gr Rem Core-Lokt. Factory ammo only. He didn't like handloading!Bubba

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

If you only gonna use only one firearm, then buy a 30-06.CAn buy Ammo from 55 grs to220. Surely with thisline-up o ullets you can find one that serves your purpose. I go to the Rocky Mtns mostyears and always carry l80 gr bullets. It's a tad much on some game, but I;ve never felt it was overgunned even in the 220 hunting Elk in thick timber. For pen plains, the l50 grScricco will bring down anything you will hunt out to 500 yds, providing you can see the target and place teh bulet in right place. I;ve kille many Mulies at 350 yds with the l80, and the bullet went all way thru the animal. Made for good tracking if necessary, but as a rule dropped in its tracts. I never worry about the gun or caliber I will carry, just how much $$ and what it will cost to go for 2-3 weeks.If could afford it, would hunt the entire season in MT of 5 weeks or untill I fill all my tags,which requires a good deep snow up high to run the Elk/Mulies down to the flats.My concern is not the caliber/type bullet, but my ability to place in the Vitals and that takes lots of pratice and more patice.AS a rule, about 2 months prior to season opening out there I will shoot 6 ot 9 rounds per day till I go. You goa know where that bullet is gonna strike the animal .AS a rule, I can tell as soon as i pull the trigger if was a good strike or not.They can take a H&H but if you don;t hit the Vitals its a wounded animal you may or may not find. Got a BUDDY WHO ONLY HAS ONE GUN, ITS A MARLIN 22 MAG ( with 50 mm Scope) AND HE FILLS his locker each week, He shoots the animal between the eye an ear and it falls immediately. He only takes a shot makeable, not a 200 yd may-be shot.Sometimes I think he;s l/2 Monkey and l/2 injun. Ok, time to hit the bed.Take care, shoot-um-straight and often.

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from Ed J wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Most overrated cartridge?30-06 hands down. In the hands of incompetent hunters it has wounded more animals than any other cartridge.Don't own one, don't know what I would use it for except to fill that vacant slot in my gun cabinet.

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from Kevin wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

The last cartridge guide mentioned all of my chosen calibers but one. Thanks for mentioning my beloved 220 swift. I wonder why the 300 win mag didn't make at least an honorable mention? With 31 ft. pounds of recoil you can start at 30/06 velocity and load up to darn near that 300 weatherby. I know it's not popular to shoot light (150 grn) bullets fast (3400 on the chrony) but I've never had trouble on numerous mule deer kills. Just controlled expansion and little ruined meat. That load has dropped muleys dead at 525 yards holding only about 12 in. high in the scope.You're right though. Caliber is much less important that a well placed shot.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Sarg, What are you talking about?I have no idea why you would even address something like that to me out of the blue.You must be meaning this for some other blogger.A .270 is the last rifle I would buy off the rack, anyway.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

7x61, what are you shooting 1898 Mauser in 7x61 Sharpe&Hart?

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey bubba, don't talk about my .204 Ruger, Not yet any way let me shoot it a couple of times.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey mark 1,, do you realize why you load the 270 with 160 gr bullets.... You are not loading 160 gr. because of deer, but because of elk.. IF you knew for sure no elk around would you still load a heavy bullet in the 270... Probably not. Here there will be no elk to shoot. If there were it would be illegal with out the appropiate tag.. I still believe at the 75-100 yds range I would encounter, the 150 would be ok for elk.(with proper placement of course). am I right?

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

We're going to eat up another subject before Dave even gets it posted.Dr. Ralph,Think you nailed it. I do believe the .243 Win is the most useless, successful cartridge ever marketed, unless it's maybe the .204 Ruger or the .17 HMR.The .270 Win might not be the "best" there is, but it d**m sure ain't in "LAST" place!Bubba

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Chev Jim I sure agree on the .270 as most overrated... in my experience a 30-06 will do anything a .270 can do better and kicks just about the same. The .243 is another one that I have trouble with. For all its popularity it is a marginal white tail round at best and is out performed by nearly every varmint offering on that size game. Just exactly what is it good for?

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay, you ever lap a bolt in one of your bolt guns?

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Dave must be on Vacation or read all these post trying to come up with something to write about....How about it DAVE.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Matt, Clay must be using a compressed load of 748 or he,s using his own chrony.. The manuals are usually a little lienient with their load tables... If Clay say 3300 fps , he means 3300 fps... My Hornay Hand book Vol.II shows3200 with55.3 gr. 748. I've never loaded 748 but like some one just mentioned IMR 4064, I,ve load a lot of it in the.308.. I also use IMR 3031 in my .308. I've got a new can of BLC-2 to use with the .204 and it also can be loaded in the .308 but with 50.5gr. (max) @ 3100fps..

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Perhaps we could have a blog discussion on the "most overrated" cartridge, now that we've kicked around the "most underrated" one. It should be a cartridge that has been hyped, but doesn't really live up to its billing. I'd personally be tempted to nominate one of the WSMs--or perhaps one of the big .30s. I think the .264 Winchester Magnum held the title for a while--and that was what did it in as a commercially successful cartridge. The winner of this category might already be teetering on the brink of extinction--or it might have good sales records but considered a disappointment by the "elite." I'm kind of leaning toward rounds like the .30-378 Weatherby, .300 RUM, and .30 Warbird--because you really need an accurate rifle and a skilled shooter to take advantage of the increase in potential range. Others might want to nail the .45-70 or even the .30-30--these are old cartridges with younger siblings that eclipse their performance, i.e., .450 Marlin Express and .307 Marlin (hope I got that designation right). Heck, some folks might even name the .270 Winchester--I'm not sure that it does anything the .30/06 cannot do as well or better, and it's limited by the bullet weights available. In my own experience, it hasn't been that swift of a deer killer. What about it, Dave? Are you ready to poke another stick into the hornet's nest?

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from Matt wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Even Hornady lists 2900 fps max in .30-06.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey sarg..I am willing to take that chance!;o)Yooper J-Our oldest lives in Kalamazoo, and younger one is in his 3rd year of college, and no grand kids yet.Just need a little spot for my log cabin, and I'll blend right in.

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Donno how Clay does it with a 30-cal 130-slug @3300 and 748, either. Speer lists a max of 2871 with 55gr of 748.

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from Matt wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay,What .30 cal 130 gr bullet with powder type/wt are you using to achieve 3300 fps, exceeding the .270, with the same case and bullet weightat 3100 fps?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

And speaking of horses, June 1990 driving back from Alaska to Phoenix Arizona with a horse trailer and two show horses was an interesting and fun trip. Canadian Customs wasn’t too bad but the US Customs are not your friends and they let you know it! Steam Boat Mountain my GMC ¾ ton 6.2 diesel handled it excellently despite the rumors I’ve been told.

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from 007 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

If I didn't already have a good 7mm Remington Mag., I'd have a .280, but with a little time at the loading bench there's not too much difference in the two when loaded appropriately for whitetails. Stick a 160 gr. Speer Mag-Tip in there and go hunting. I also agree with the .308 crew as I have an elderly Remington 788 in .308 that simply thrives on IMR 4064 and 150 gr. Hdy. Interlocks. As to the .243/.244/6mm's, and I know this will get me in trouble, I have never cared for anything that shoots less than a 120 gr. bullet for deer, too light and too fast. As to the .35 Remington, put it in a 14" T/C Contender with a 200 gr. bullet and H322 and go look for a whitetail. Good hunting, all!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

SargPulled the trigger to soon, I did verify the charges vs velocity!The loads are for the 308 Win 130 grain Hornady Spire Point bullet #3020

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

SargThe loads for the 308 Hornady Spire Point bullet #3020 that I love to shoot and have the best success from jack rabbits to mule deer. Loaded Cartridge OAL is 2.690”, Federal 210 Primers, Winchester 748 45.5gr/2700fps, 47.6gr/2800fps, 49.7gr/2900fps, 51.7gr/3000fps, MAX 53.8gr/3100fps. This is straight out of my Hornady reloading manual Third Edition. For Hornady 150 grain #3031 OAL 2.750” Win 748 41.8gr/2400fps, 43.4gr/2500fps, 45.1gr/2600fps, 46.7gr/2700fps, Max 48.4gr/2800fps.By the way, in a 30-06 with Win 748 you can drive a 130 gr at 58.6gr/3300fps and 150 gr 56.1gr/3100fps.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey Clay, good idea, having a shovel on your Four wheeler sounds like a great piece of equipment for me to get on mine.. I do have a hatchet with me and A piece of good rope about 6ft. with and eyelet plated in each end to rap around a tree for the winch cable. Won't damage the tree or the cable thatway. A small snatch block is handy to double the pull on the winch.. Don't take any room and is not heavy.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ralph the Rifleman,, If your wife would move today on up north, She may not let you come up tomorrow....

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

RtRHey, would love to have you up here! We can make room for a couple more. Not too many, just 2more! Maybe some kids too.Ishawooa:I guess you and I gotta lead this group. Someone's got to bite the bullet, jump on Al Gore's bandwagon, hey global warming is here! You'd have to be blind to deny that or have a broken thermometer. Anyway, last summer, some of those groups were asking for money to fight that "problem". Wouldn't you feel bad now, had you contributed?YooperJack

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Well boys we have about beat this topic to death plus a few others. Interesting reading nevertheless.7x51 what is your opinion on using .308 brass made for small primers versus conventional brass for large primers? A few locals claim a bit more accuracy from the oddity.Brett and the boys didn't look so great against Eli (Archie was in the same class as me at Ole Miss). Like someone on the net said Tryce (as in 3rd time) is a charm. Being an old Packer backer and an old '06 fan makes this all somewhat entertaining. Anyone remember the article Carmichael wrote a few years ago regarding the inherent lack of accuracy available from the .277? I didn't agree with him even if he is one of my favorites because I have always had very good results from at least six brands of .270 rifles that I have owned or which presently reside in one of my gunsafes. My notes show the .270 loads to be as accurate as my .280's or 7 mm mags.Oh and its minus 19 with no wind in Wyoming today, nice time to try the .17 Rem on a few yodel dogs.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Yohan,DEP said it himself:"But to truly take advantage of the .280, you have to handload."I can't abide that The Superior Round of Our Time has to be handloaded to reach that potential. To stay on the same playing field; the .270 Win has better than twice the selection in factory ammo, including plenty of loads with premium bullets. Of course the .30-06 has more factory loads, for more application, than any two other chamberings combined!SA

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from Yohan wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Again to Ralph ,...You mentioned where you hunt is very thickwhat i did once by a river where it was s so thick civilized man could barley make it throug is to cut a trail. actually cut two about 1/3 mile. each.It was a one hell of s job ,.. but with hatchet axe machete and small chaim saw ,.. made paths in that .. leding to feeding areas,.. when the time came i couldnt hunt so told a good friend( who needed meat ) go sit in my stand ,.. he shot two deer one day and two deer the next and he saw from what he said a whoooole bunch more ,.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey YooperJ.If the wife would move today; I would be living North of the Big Mac bridge tomorrow!I used a few different methods for luring in ND cy-oats and game calls seemed to work the best. I also used the salted red colored water trick on the snow that attracted the ravens overhead which called in the dogs like a neon lunch sign.

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from Yohan wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ralph ,.. jeeze ,. lot of bloging goin on here ,..Yup,.. well cant disagree ,.. was never one to cry over spilled milk ,. Favre just couldnt keep the milk in th cup,..I personally think Favre cant handle the cold anymore ,. or maybe ever,..They won a big game in the snow but when it gets ugly(like in chicago) it seems he just cant get it done,.Not like he guys is still trying to pay off the mortgage either .All the respct in the world for his accomplshments,.. but it is what it is.They are young team who went far see what next year brings.Superbowl however should be good.Got talked into a situation by a freined who was was doing his best immitation of a drunk with as big mouth ,.Actually won $10 on the game ,.. predicted a short spread,. (close game)Also yes ,.. 280 ,.. a superior round ,..in my humbleopinion(THE SUPERIOR ROUND OF OUR TIME )Interesting you should come to a simlar comclusion.Cant at present think of any smart a$$ed thing to say so ,.. have a nice day Ralph,..

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from Ed J wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

RtRIts 1 deg. with a 5mph wind. Wind chill -12 that gives you a whole 30 min. before frotbite gets you.sargI only have one load for the 204 and that is for someone else's gun 34gr vmax 27 grs 748

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay, I see what you say about the 748, but the only thing according to my Hornady book is it take a little powder for the same velosity(2700fps ) the the IMR 3031. My manual only show 168gr BTHP . Not good for hunting. But I'll give it a try... I know you've been there..Dr. Ralph. I figured you and I were hunting the same type ground. Some fields I may get a 150 yd shot off but mostly 75 yds max. Any of you guy using the .204, Need a little input , loading 34gr v-max and some 36 gr. hp.. any info or input of any kind, send it down range. I need it . Garyps I'm using BLC-2

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

RtRI'm the kind of guy that would complain if you hung me with a new rope. Remember how NCOs always said "if the troops aren't complaining, they're not happy"Hell, I was the happiest guy in the Navy!Actually, there's a lot of good reasons to live here. Wind chill in the winter is one of the best reasons. The trees do block the wind a lot!I think though, the best way to shoot coyotes is to bait (road kill) out on a frozen lake. Then you post. The coyotes follow to the bait, upwind. I don't think you'd get much wind protection in that location.YooperJack

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey YooperJack-I will take a bone chilling weather stay in the UP anytime. Try a winter stay in North Dakota you will have a better idea of "wind chill factor" for sure!

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from Del in Kansas wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Michael,Some of the other guys probably have more knowledge on this than I but here's my opinion. Over the years I've shot critters from deer to bear and caribou with Partitions from 6mmX284 Win up to 350 Rem mag. The lightest partition for a given caliber will expand and penetrate well. So why not have the higher velocity which gives you greater range. I shot a buck with an 85 gr 6mm Part. bullet in the chest a few years back. Muzzle Velocity was chronograghed at 3500 fps. The buck dropped instantly. Autopsy showed most of heart and lungs gone. Bullet penetrated to the back end. It was the only Partition I've ever fired that did not exit the animal. I suspect the heavier bullets are made with thicker jackets for deeper penetration and slower expansion. Which you would only need on a Moose, large Brown bear or simular game.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Strangly ClayI worked up one load for my .270.I use the Sierra 90 gr FBHP and 50 gr. of IMR 3031 for an advertised velocity of 3500 fps.I use this load if I decide to varmint hunt as the POI at 100 yards, without touching the scope is just a hair over 2 inches. I must only hold a hair low and it's very effective on varmints out to 200 yards or so. Beyond that, I have problems holding steady enough to hit a target that small reliably/consistantly.Bubba

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

BubbaSometimes too much info is over kill and I know I'm guilty of that. By the way, the average shot is 75 to 150 yards and that’s why I'm a staunch supporter of the 30-06 on Moose. One more grain of powder in my 22-250 causes web crack on the 3-4 shot or hold the extra grain for 6-8 loads.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay Cooper:I took your advice and am shopping for a 25-06. Like 280's also, but I don't think there's any in my range. I think Dave Petzal gets custom guns.Anyway, I wish I had it now. I think there are 7 or 8 sportsmans clubs holding "Predator Challenge" hunts in Jan. & Feb., thoughout Michigan's Upper Peninsula. There are nice prizes for the most coyotes by a two-person team. It looks like a lot of fun! Plus its a chance for you to hunt with your centerfire rifle for a while longer. Unfortunately, I didn't buy the rifle yet, so I'll have to wait until next winter.YooperJackP.S. Actually, we're in a helluva cold snap right now. I think the last thin I want to do is be posted somewhere, waiting for game.

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from Michael wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hi again and thanks guys for the 6.5 mm bullet info earlier.I am intrigued by Bubba's story about the partition at short range. I shot a larger buck this year. I used 165 grain (.30-06)partitions for this season because my wife and I also hunted bears, and I wanted some sure penetration and bone breaking ability in case of a close situation with a wounded bear, but didn't go too heavy so that I would retain velocity for the deer; splitting hairs I know, but that was my thinking.Anyhow on the deer it went through the lungs right behind the leg, just encountering rib and lung tissue. It certainly expanded some before exiting, but not hugely, judging by the exit hole. What it did was dropped the deer where it stood, not to get up. There was some uncoordinated leg kicking that I attributed to nerves. There was probably much less than a pound of meat lost.Which end of the spectrum, namely my drop or Bubba's deer walking away, would be more common with this bullet on this type of shot from cartridges of this power level?Michael<><

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

CCI load my .270 to approx. 2900 fps. Sighted in to shoot 1 1/2 inches high at 100 yards, I'm right back in the bull between 225/250 yards. Anything out to 300 yards, put the + where you want the bullet.The load is very comfortable to shoot, no heavy recoil. The manual suggests loads of 1.5 grs more powder and advertised velocities of 3100 fps.I don't hunt any place I have to shoot beyond 250 yards or so.Why would I want to make a load "sizzle"? So the bullet can arrive in .20 of a second instead of .21 of a second!?You have a lot of intelligence and information Clay, but sometimes you have a tendency to go a little overboard!Bubba

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

SargOne of the best powders I’ve found for both 308 and 30-06 is Winchester 748. More in likely if you’re using a bolt gun, you can cram 54 grains behind that 130 for a sizzling 3100fps plus! I found that you can really drive and get ½ MOA with 130, 150 and 165/8grain with this powder! I used it in both my M1G and M1A gas gun for competition.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

7x51The reason the 308 is taken more matches is because, more shooters went to a shorter action and gave it a 1:10 twist barrel for the 168 and 180’s. If you trick both rifles in 308 and the 30-06 it would be very interesting more in likely it would be a tossup. Palma match shooters on the 1000 yard line shoot 308 bolt guns shooting 155 grain bullets with a 1:11 twist barrel. It’s very interesting to watch these teams. The team captain would dope the wind, light and mirage etc tell one shooter the corrections, that shooter will fire and if it’s good, the information is given instantly to the rest of the team to fire.

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

the voice is in you house

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Oh, Oh. I fear there’s a whacked out troll on this blog now, fellow bloggers. Last “Mark-1* entry isn’t mine. This is a first.Don’t know who it is, but there’s a very troubled person haunting this blog, folks.Mark-1, the real one

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

To Jamie,Buy the '06. No comparison. Light short action? What 4 oz.? The 06 is faster extremely accurate and strong. It literally is twice the man a 308 is."Load 56gr. IMR 4350, WLR primer, Win. case, 180gr. Partition bullet and you may safely acheive 2800fps or very close." This from Craig Boddington.Del in Kansas,Your killin me (personal) but I looked at conservation regs. and about 20% is antler restricted the rest is wide open.WAMtnhunter,Thanks I'm waiting my reply from Fed. but I believe you. I was always under the impression Rem 700 35whs. came with 24" barrels. 2600fps is quite impressive from 22"

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Sarg, I mostly hunt in Hickman County which is extremely hilly and overgrown with not much agriculture at all. If you find a shot at over 100 yards you are sitting on a powerline, and the deer hang up and cross those with extreme caution. The sad part is when you see any deer in the woods at 100 yards there are 10,000 branches twigs and leaves in the way. I have learned the hard way that there is no such thing as a brush buster. Best to set up in an area where the hardwoods and pines meet along a rub line. They will hold up in the pines looking around to make sure the coast is clear... KA-BOOM! Hope you're 50 yards away or a twig will send your projectile a half mile off course.

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from 7x51 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

How do i figure the .308 to be more acurate than the .30-06?...i competitivly shoot, see whats being used, compare targets, look at record books. The 06 hasnt been used seriously for competition since the mid 50s. Notice how the .308 broke every record held by the 06 in the books? The .308 is more acurate...deal with it...its fact...i didnt make it so. I dont know if its because of a more modern case design, a shorter powder colum, uniform ignition, or a simple matter of balance, but i can assure you, the .308s record speeks for its self.My chronographing results show the same speed up really until the 165s. As for the 180s, your talking less than 100fps. If you think that matters on game, i dont think youve shot much game.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

sargI am a .270 man, not because of Jack O'Connor, but because that was the first rifle "I" bought. I've enjoyed it and like it. It's taken everything I've ever pointed it at.As a younger man, hunting Colorado, I decided heavier was better and loaded up a batch of .270 Win with the 160 gr Nosler Partition bullets. More because of the chance of running into elk than anything else. Besides, I was very young and very, very intelligent!!! (LOL!!!!) I did shoot a mulie at about 90 yds and the bullet performed nicely. Back home, I couldn't find my 130's so grabbed a handful of the Nosler 160's for an afternoon hunt. Since I knew I wouldn't be shooting over about 60 yards, bullet wt wasn't a big deal. A small buck entered, stage left, pausing mid-stage to ponder direction and speed. Too late, 160gr Nosler poked a hole neatly behind right shoulder, exiting stage rear (left), leaving deer to just, well, EXIT!!That hard-nosed Nosler brick bat had punched a .277 hole in one side and the exit was probably a .280. Very little, if any, expansion at a range of about 40 yards. Since that little episode, I have loaded 130 gr Sierra BTSP.It has yet to fail me when I did my part. (placement)I like guns, all different calibers, especially old ones. (.257 Rbts, 7X57 Mauser, .300 H&H) If I felt any of them would do a better job, I'd swap in a heartbeat. I'll probably have the wife drop my old .270 Win Lee Loader and a mallet in my casket so I can do a little reloading in my spare time!BubbaP.S. What I'm saying sarg, is a 130 gr bullet, regardless of diameter, is sufficient!

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay, I believe the way you do on the heavy bullet, I usally don't use anything heavier than 150 for whitetails.. Now I've never hunted bear but maybe use a .35 rem. and Marlin levergun because it quick.. A lot of deer are killed here at home with the .243, don't believe I would go any smaller. most important is placement in my book...I am going to try the 130 gr. you told me about.. I needto do that and shoot a little.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ladies and Gentlemen, I’m coming out with a new song, a sequel to rhinestone Cowboy called. I’m a Cosmic Cowboy, YYYEEEEHHAAAA!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Sarg, one of the biggest mistakes a hunter makes is using a bullet that is too heavy. A 7mm Rem Mag with 150 grain partition works fantastic on Elk! 175 is just to much bullet for that caliber!

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Dr.Ralph, Do you mostly hunt hilly country or are you up in the plateau in central Tenn?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Make that immature malcontents.Hey WA Mtnhunter, I wish that my PC would make the "t" in Clinton upside down!Want to have a little fun, ask a person if MLK was a Republican or Democrat. Wait for their answer, some will say independent. You reply, MLK was not either of them, he belonged to Gods Party and watch them do a melt down!

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

7x51, According to my manuals, I can not equal the 30-06 with my .308 at anything above the 150 gr. bullets, The 180 gr 30-06 can hit at2600 or 2700 max loads, my .308 which i love dearly with 180 gr can only hit 2500 or 2600 with a max load, not exactly equal. I'll defend my "ole" .308 . I just like it.. could be because I,ve got one. I wouldn't mind having a 30-06 but if I did I would load it much the same as the .308. Out west in the flatter, longer range hunts, would use a little hotter load. Not really necessary here in the hills. You have a lot longer range in mountains than you do in hill country.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

ChadI think you fired too soon, too! LOLMy New Year's resolution is to try not to post negative words on the blog. My only exception is Hillary Clinton (or Bill).

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

If the word malcontents means sold out to conformity, I would agree with that. That’s the problem with today’s world and I’m not the conformant type!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

A friend Bob shot a crow with a 25-06 behind a restaurant in there garden. The crow was facing away when he shot. He picked up the crow and one of the customers was sitting at a window table eating chilly when Bob held up the back of the crow then turned it around showing the blown out side. The customer lost his cookies!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey Bubba, 22 LR works great on dear too!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Yeah Yohan, what about that game? I told you Eli was going to do the back to back Manning thing! Death to the Patriots... Belicheat is the coach of the year? I guess the lesson here is get fined a half million and lose your draft pick but a Super Bowl ring is worth it. The Krafts are laughing at the slap on the wrist, and the NFL is sweeping it all under the rug.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

The most "under-rated" cartridge in the U.S. has got to be the .22LR! Nobody thinks much of it and it has probably taken a wider "range" of game than any other cartridge out there! And will probably still be with us when everthing else is being melted down!Bubba

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I almost forgot... he had a CZ heavy barrel .22 bolt and he says it puts them in the same hole at 100 yards? Forgot to ask him with what ammo...

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

malcontentsA chronically dissatisfied person.One who rebels against the established system: "immature malcontents who have long since sold out to conformity" (John M. Wilson).

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I have a new found perspective on the .280. I spent the day with another gun nut although he does not hunt... at least not creatures who walk on four legs. He was a member of the Methamphetamine Task Force. He punches a lot of paper and when I say a lot I mean it because he blows me away and I shoot 10,000 rounds a year and that's a conservative estimate.His favorite rifle was brought out from some unknown safe and low and behold it was a Sig bolt action in .280... when I saw the Zeiss scope I almost cried. Zeiss too is his favorite. I asked "why the .280? I've heard it's underpowered...". His reply was "it's the ballistic co-efficient of that 7mm bullet... it's the best there is with the possible exception of the .338, and I hand load my .280's". I've searched the web and can't find a bolt action made by Sig but this gun was sweet... floated factory barrel and the trigger was too damn good. As it came from the factory he said, no work done.Oh by the way here's another picture of a crow I shot today at 72 yards with the RWS... 25 my ass click my name.

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from Del in Kansas wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Forgot to mention non-resident anydeer tag was $175 last year and antlerless was only $7 each. They really want us to shoot more does in MO.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay took it better than I thought [chuckle] although when I was out working my noble horses I swore there was a bright flash just on the horizon to the west-southwest.It's beyond me how/why someone sees any deviation to his “pronouncements” as a personal attack and a slight. I read and reread my entries, yet I fail to see where I’m being unreasonable.As far as my hunting and shooting experience I’ve done more than some, less than many others. I’m certainly not a pro or seek to be seen as a “pro”. ...Not my pay grade.I doubt most on this blog would really care I did claim cosmic hunting and shooting knowledge anyway, them being the malcontents they are.Haven’t been banned yet. :-)

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from Del in Kansas wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

RMHIf you want a nice white tail go to North Missouri. Many of the counties there have trophy deer management. You can only shoot 1 buck and he must have at least 4 points on one antler. You can shoot all the does you want. There are some real nice busks running around. This is a fairly new development. I expect it to become a popular spot for non-resident trophy hunters simular to Kansas. The last 2 years my friends and I have seen numerous mature bucks. There is also plenty of public hunting.

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from Chad Love wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Apparently I typed too soon...

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from Ricochet wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay, don’t bother with mark. Probably got one of those long necks stuck in his mouth?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter130 grain? NO JOKE! That should be a hot little bullet for deer in a 30-06 and imagine a 300 Mag? WOW! The only problem I would have with that, I hunt around cattle. Other than that, O’Boy!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Mark, there you go again! Instead of asking why Steve Hornady turned down the idea of a 250 grain, you opened your mouth once again falling flat on your face once again. You didn’t even answer my question of the use of a 12 inch string! You say fancy words yet your void with experience but that’s ok! You started really great about Ordinance steel barrels that got me thinking and brings up the question of why 264 Win Mag and 220 Swift don’t use the same materials. The 223 with a 70 grain VLD stands up very well with the 30 cal’s at 600 yards. You should have asked the question why!Mark there is some truth of me using a shovel and an ATV. A shovel to put out camp fires, make drainage ditches around the tent, digging out someone’s truck and searching for lost hunters on an ATV to name a few. What’s so wrong in a do it yourself hunt Mark! ATV’s do not damage the trails like a large 4x4 and would sink in the tundra. At least I’m prepared for whatever situation that comes up. My ATV also has a VHF/UHF 50 watt transceiver on it with all the HAM repeater and State Police and Military frequencies and yes Mark to save argument; I do have a FCC license to use it! So tell me Mark, think what would happened in those hunting and outdoor accidents, if I wasn’t prepared??? It could have been you Mark!The bottom line is this mark; it’s not just the knowledge of one individual. It’s the collective of the group sharing thoughts and ideas what really makes a team!

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Meant to say .460 S&W for that M 94 wish above! Not sure what happened. But what was I thinking anyway? M 70 Lefty in .270 Win for the old Curmudgeon! Go Winchester!SA

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ah well Yooper. Doesn't add to my pocket just my pride when 'my team' wins. I do believe 'we' can end the Patriots' season in the samw way we won last night though.That is two weeks off so we have more time to talk rifles in between!I am hoping against hope that 'The New Winchester' company will make a Model 70 with lines like the original. Maybe even chamber a lefty version in .280 Rem for a certain curmudgeon blog editor! Item next would be a 'Big Bore 94' in .460 S&W; talk about a rifle/wheelgun combination suitable for any game on this continent! Finally; if they would make a really nice competition grade .22 LR bolt gun I would be in line for that one!SA

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

SilverArrowYeah, we got our butts whupped! I guess it was too good to be true. I thought ole Brett would pull that one off, then beat New England. Oh well. It doesn't affect me anyway. Ain't no one out there gonna make more left handed rifles whether or not anyone wins a football game!But thanks for thinking about me.YooperJack

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Yooper; How about my NY GIANTS!!!NFC Champions! Didn't truly eat Favre's lunch, but they had his dessert!Do have to tip my hat to Brett and the Packers; played a hell of a game and were classy when it ended.SA

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey Clay,Barnes is coming out with a 130 grain Tipped Triple Shock solid copper BT bullet. It should have a great BC due to the polymer tip and the expansion and retention of weight of the Triple shock.Might be a real git 'er dun load.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

So much for civility! How bout them jints?YooperJack

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Our Most Underrated Cartridge is the 30-06, why! If you shot as much as I have in the lower 48 and lived in Alaska long enough working with Hunters and guide services, you will learn that the 30-06 is the best rifle for the average hunter. All the respectable guides I knew, will not allow any rifle under 30 caliber. Show up with a 7mmRem Mag and you’ll be setting there until you have at least a 30-06, the right bullet and able to hit reasonable accurate. These respectable guides will back you up on dangerous game but unlike others they will not shoot your game for you!For the lower 48, the 30-06 when hand loaded, you can achieve magnum results without the blast, recoil and the cost with selective loads for everything from jack rabbits and coyotes with a 100 to 110 grain bullet @3500 fps. If you want a load for open country and cross canyon shooting, a 130 grain @3300fps is ideal for mule deer. Elk 165 to 180 and moose 180 to 220 grain. I’ve loaded up 250 grain in my 06 one time, but I wasn’t impressed at all. So we tried this bullet in 300 Win Mag. A lot of boom, recoil, and dropped like a rock. So I pulled the remainder of the bullets and used them in my sling shot for grouse.The bottom line is this. In my book, the 30-06 can be tweaked and peaked to practically fill any shooting situation in the hands of the “average shooter” and give the big boys the run for their money too!

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay,At least I hunt and shoot with a firearm, not with a shovel and an ATV.Howl as much as you want when folks question or qualify your statements or express their own opinions, but you can't change the Laws of Physics with dogma, nor can you modify 80-years of hunting and shooting research and history trite, chest-beating statemnts.

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from Ed wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

It's true that should you already own...a .270, you don't "need" a .280 too. But, at the risk of upsetting millions of .270 fans and addicts, the .280 is actually the better of the two, in my opinion. Better than an 06 too....hmmmmmmm? I have solved this very tough dilemna by owning all 3 (the sweating has finally stopped...lol). The .280 is one d**m fine cartridge and if you think it needs just a tad more uuummmpppffff, the LM loading will do all the .280 A.I. will do!

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

ga’YEP!, I hunt four legs and feathered! Bar stools and bird brain women that will circle the chair three time before setting down! Now thats funny LMOA!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

By the way, the AR15 with a 1-7 twist shooting a 70 grain bullet works fantastic on the 600 yard line in NRA High Power Matches

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from Alamo wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Seems appropriate to me Chad. Congenial discussion of technical issues, vociferous debate on political principles.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

O’Mark, you told Ricochet you’ve been to Alaska or haven’t you. I know you’re not the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to shooting. Hornady only had a round nose bullet at that time and didn’t see the need for a spire point bullet. Just what Alaskans would expect out of outsiders like you would say! I wonder I f you know the use of a 12 inch string for gutting a moose and the biggest laugh to watch a person gut their first caribou. Funny thing, you always fall short of telling something with experience, so Clintonistic of the stories you tell!

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from Chad Love wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I wouldn't have guessed this post would get over 170 comments so far. The tone is almost...I don't know..congenial.What's with you people the past few days?

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

is this because of a smaller bullet diameter?

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay, good post.. now I downloaded a chart for the .204 Ruger..204:40 gr v-max 30gr BLC-2 at 3774 fps and 26.02 " drop at 500yd.22-250:40 gr v-max 39.5 Varget at 4135 fps and a27.5" drop at 500yd.now I would think the 22-250 at361 fps faster would not drop 1.45 " lower at 500 yds. This is with a 250 yd zero. Idon't have a ballistic chart on the .204 but It would have to be flatter shooting at 100 yds, than the 22-250 in this bullet weight right?

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Devil Dog & Jim in Mo:The .35 Whelen 225 gr Federal Trophy Bonded's were supposed to be back in production in 2007 according to the Federal catalog, web site, and an email I got from Federal some time back.There are some available from folks on GunBroker.com from time to time. with ammo pricing and availability, you will likely pay as much for the new production as some off the auctions. Buy whatever you can find unless you handload. The .358 TB's bullets cost about as much as loaded cartridges.I'm hanging on to the 3+ boxes I have on hand. It only takes about 3 rounds a year :-)From personal experience, they are absolutely devastating on elk and deer at any reasonable range. I get 2616 fps 15 feet from the muzzle with my M700 22 in. barrel. The ballistics table is not so impressive, but I have never tried to eat a ballistics table from an ammo catalog or magazine article. The venison, on the other hand, is absolutely marvelous.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I’m not certain I agree completely with what Clay postulates.Heat-Barrels: Steel sporting barrels are indeed different from ordinance steel found in military rifles. Ordinance steel barrels are designed to with stand more destructive heat effects of volume fire, but you can still burn out the barrel of a military rifle [i.g. M-60 light machine gun. Troopies learn how to switch the barrels].I’ve had some experience with the 264 Mag and considerable experience with the 220 Swift. Burning all that powder will burn out a commercial sporting barrel using a premiscuious fast rate of fire in any commercial rifle. I don’t know how this fact can be changed cost effectively. It does seem modern powders have aided longer barrel life in these notorious two cartridges.70-grain .22 bullets. I don’t think the case is large enough in 222, 222 mag, and 223’s to push this bullet weight, w/stability, except using the fast 1:7 twist. That’s why the military went from the 1:14 twist to the 1:12 twist and rested upon the 1:7 twist with the standard military 62-grain bullet. In my limited experience loading for 223 that 1:7 twist must tear commercial 50 and 55-grain 22 varmint bullets apart loading above 2.9k-fps. Maybe other bloggers can bear me out here. I saw nothing, but frustration in loading 222’s and 223’s to 3k fps in rifles with this fast twist. ….Another point why I’m doubtful of the hunting value of AR style rifles for hunting.It’s a given boat-tail bullets are for long range shooting. What is a *hunter* doing shooting long distance on something big enough needing a 250-grain bullet? That’s why the suggestion was blown off, Clay.

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from Lyn wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Late to the party, as usual.I ran a Excel spreadsheet on Hornady factory loads... .25-06, .270, .280, 7mm-08, .308, .30-06. Bullet speed, foot pounds of energy, and trajectory at 100, 200, and 300 yards. With the exception of the .25-06, there's not much to argue about. It's splitting hairs. They will all do the job in the hands of a competent marksman. Dance with what brung ya. As Col. Cooper once told me, "Carry what you shoot, and shoot what you carry."

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Even if it was able to line up these critters, I don’t believe for a minute that a 175-grain Swift A-Frame, for example, will shoot through two moose and kill a porcupine on the far side. The reason for this is its lack of ability to maintain it stability, it would tumble! The number one problem the moose and bear hunters in Alaska found, that the 175 is not a stable bullet.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Mr. Petzal, I find a few cartridges failed due to poor marketing. However, the majority of them were due to the ignorance of the rifle manufacturer not identifying its short comings. Take the 244/6mm Remington for example and what I’ve known for years.The 6mm Remington was introduced by Remington in 1963 to “REPLACE” the original 1955 version, the 244. The two cartridges are identical in every way and are based on the 7 x 57mm case necked down with the shoulder angle increased by 5 degrees. The 244, as it was introduced, had a twist rate of 1:12”, which left it unable to stabilize the long 100 grain spire point bullets and thereby reduced the versatility of the round. As a result, the 243 Winchester gained all the fame and glory in the 6mm caliber. When Remington finally changed to a 1:9” twist and renamed the cartridge, the shooting public became interested. Now the 6mm Remington rates very close to the 243 in popularity, as rightfully it should. Ballistically speaking, the 6mm Remington has a very slight advantage over the 243, but the difference in not enough to show a significant advantage on game animal.Another failure was the 264 Winchester Magnums the firearm manufacturers were ignorant again to realize its short comings due to materials used to make the barrel that resulted in short barrel life. Once again, it’s not the iceberg that sunk the Titanic, it was the poor grade steel used to construct it!Another blunder is the 223 Remington. The military version had a 1:14” twist barrel to just barley stabilize the bullet until impact, thus the bullet would tumble resulting in deadly results. This was ideal for the Military, not good for the Sportsmen that its version was in 1:12” twist. Times have change and shooters are now using bullet weights as heavy as 75 grains, requiring a 1:7” twist. Thompson Contender would sale more 223 barrels, if only they would change the twist from 1:12” to 1:9” twist to shoot 63 grain bullets. Nosler makes a .224 diameter 60 grain partition that would be ideal for deer.Mainly it’s not the cartridge that made the failure; it’s the manufacturer of the firearm that prevented it from its full potential, mainly the specifications of rate of twist and/or the materials used to prolong the barrel life.For bullets, why do bullet manufacturers do not make changes to better the sale of their products? The Ballistic tip has been out for 40 plus years formally called the Remington Bronze Point and now other bullet manufactures think it’s a new idea like Nosler ballistic tips and Hornady SST. My question to Nosler is, is it time to make a Partition Ballistic tip? I wrote Steve Hornady back in 1990 about Alaska needing a 338 250 grain soft point boat tail. Of course like many, he wrote back that we didn’t need such a bullet. I also called Sierra about their Game Kings that are fantastic on those long shots except the bullet would come apart shedding the lead core from the jacket. The person I was talking to denied that a problem ever existed then finally admitted it and they were working on the problem. All of this reminds me of the Alaska State Government that is in Juneau. If the Capital was moved to Shemya Alaska, things would be done a lot quicker! My point is this, if they had to live and hunt in the places we are, they would quickly change their way of thinking. Kind of like some fella in Florida telling people in the winter how to dress when it’s minus 60 below!

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Great post Chev Jim.Sometimes I think I'm reading an outdoors Cheech-n-Chong script on this blog. Nice to read a change.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Bubba you got the right idea about the knife making Make what you enjoy,enjoy what you make.. I was down to Pigeon Forge Tenn. a little while back and went to the Smoky Mtn. Knife works, always buy several for myself or to give away, but I saw they have several different style of blanks, was going to buy a few to tinker with but got carried away and didn't.. Going back next month and will get a few to play with.. we go down there quit regularly. We love it down there in the Smokies.. We alway go to Cades Cove, I'm sure Dr. Ralph knows what i'm talking about.. Last time down there we saw 52 deer one morming, My brother in law was about 30 min. ahead and he saw 2 bear also. Tennesse is a great state, I'm only about 4-1/2 hr. away straight down I-75. Well better go now, what you think about the game last night??

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Bubba, any bullet you can load in the 30-06 will fit the .308... Read your manuals, they will fit but you can in no way get the same ballistics.. I've load about any thing available in the 308, but once you go beyond the 150 gr, the 06 has the advantage of more case capacity. I have loaded 165gr Bt in mine but not to the same performance as the same in the 06..7x51.... how is the short action more accurate than the 06?? I believe any one familure with the two would like to know where you get this info.. I can (by book) do or match anything with my .308 that can be done with the 06 UNTIL I get past the 150 gr, More accurate, not really . I believe its like someone just said, it's better to match the bullet and cartridge to the game Some will match a little wider range but no bullet is suitable to all game. get that notion out of your head now...

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I'm sorry. I thought that the bigger case on the 06 allowed you to use bigger bullets. I know that both can use any 30 cal, but I didn't think that a 308 would perform acceptably with the heavier ones.YooperJack

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Only one I "aruge" with is Yooper Jack. More bullets for the .30-'06 than for the .308? C'mon YJ! Any .308 bullet with fit either case! I find loading data for the same set of bullets for both cartridges.7X51, listen, all in the world a .308 Win or 7.62 NATO is, is a .30-'06 SHORT! Same bullet, same case shortened! Amazingly, pretty close ballistics!Bubba

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from 7x51 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I never said i could spell

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from 7x51 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I prefer the .308. Short action, more acurate, less recoil, much easier to load for as its not picky and takes less powder and is exactly the same up to 180 grain loads. Anything heaver than that, and you really need to buy a .338 win mag. Dont try to aruge, the above statements are facts for anyone who knows crap on balistics or reloading...and buy the way, i shoot neither.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Jamie:What's your intended use? What part of the country do you hunt?I don't think there is much difference, 06 has more bullet sizes. Both are readily available.YooperJack

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from Jamie wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

This is not so much about the catridged mentioned, but how good is a .308 as compared to a .30-06? Recoil, groups, range, etc. Thanks

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Boy, only in a rifle column will you find a metaphor from J.R.R. Tolkien! Chev Jim, I think that's just evolution. I think back to the early days of America, and how gunpowder was first applied, I don't think small caliber weapons would have been practical. I suspect that "brushbusting capability" probably came from experiences learned in that era.YooperJack

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

sargKnow a fella up the road that "builds" knives. He's given me two or three. I keep them on my reloading bench. They're the most horrendous things I've ever tried to use. The blades are thick and heavy and the handles are square. The blade so hard you need a diamond hone to sharpen it!Come to find out, he builds "kit" knives, and charges an arm and a leg for them.My knife building is not a hobby nor a living. As I have an idea or a need for a particular blade, that's what I build. I haven't built a blade in nearly three years but I've had an idea and am beginning to shape the blank. I don't use C40 stainless with a Rockwell hardness of 80-oughty-80 or what ever! I just use what ever I have at hand. My favorite skinning knife that "I" made was built from a discarded edger blade I found. The handle is black walnut and it will shave. It's easy to sharpen on a carborundum stone and holds an edge very nicely! I've got some old machete's I grind a blank out of, shape it with a file and build a handle for it!It's more a "pass" time for me! No pressure!Bubba

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I have the greatest admiration for Jack O'Connor. He has left us quite a legacy--and just one part of that legacy is the fact that we can buy much lighter hunting rifles today. I must also, however, salute writers like Jim Carmichel, who destroyed the brush-buster myth when he reported--decades ago--that the H. P. White Laboratory had actually found faster, spitzer-type bullets to get through brush better than slower, roundnose bullets. Any bullet can be deflected, but the slower, fatter ones actually get deflected more, based upon the tests conducted by the lab. This was a startling revelation--goodbye brush-buster cartridge, and hello fast-stepping, flat-shooting cartridge. This revelation pretty much demolished Jack's rationale for "East - West" deer rifles and cartridges. Why pack a .35 Remington lever action in the Eastern woods if you'd really rather shoot a lightweight bolt action in .243 Winchester? Our own Dave P. has also added to our great body of knowledge--he might call his story "There and Back Again," like Bilbo the Hobbit--because he visited the "big-bore for everything" camp and came back to the "match the cartridge to the game" camp. Now, I ask you this: how many gunwriters have actually changed their minds and admitted doing so? Dave has no problem recanting an earlier belief or practice. That's going to keep him relevant for the 21st century. We accepted so much "dogma" from the earlier gunwriters, but today's writers need to show the ability to quantify their theories. If, for example, a "short-fat" cartridge is supposed to be that much better than conventional cartridges, show us the proof. Manufacturers will release a cartridge with hot ballistics and then start loading down the cartridge--we need to be made aware of instances like this. Also, gunwriters should be the first to decry a drop in quality of newly manufactured firearms--and not defend shoddy shortcuts as "advances in manufacturing." I hope Dave and other gunwriters will start to scream bloody murder if Winchesters and Remingtons are going to be made in China. Well, that's it--Jack and Warren Page and Elmer Keith were all greats, but our own Dave P is creating a legacy all of his own, whether he knows it or not!

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Well Yoop, sorry about that! Even I would have liked to see Brett go out on top. But you know, a class act like Brett Favre, WAS on top! He's just an awesome person.Yeah, sarg, I think that would be overkill. I just remembered once when I was about 15, I was headed back to camp with my dad's .30-30. A squirrel jumped up on the side of a tree at about 15 yards and stuck his head up. I aimed for the head and that's what I hit..... But, I had both back legs, from about the back of the rib cage forward was nothing but skin. It looked as if I had skinned the head out! Now, THAT, was overkill!Bubba

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

RockyMtnHunter, I 've not been to Montana since about 1963 Just after Kennedy got shot. That was the Blackfoot Indians where I was at , Forgot what Indians on out west., About three years ago as the Elk here in Ky. began to migrate out of the buffer zone where they were released, here where I live (Extreme Eastern Part) you could shoot an elk legal if you were legal to hunt deer. It did not count an you tag, just could not move it until game warden look it over. Then last year you could take one if you had the $10.00 ticket where you applied for the draw. This past year you had to have a $30.00 tag. All this outside the buffer zone of course. My neighbor just this week applied for the draw for this fall. I may wait a while before I apply . Next year my tags for hunting and fishing will be free.(65 yrs old) When we were in Montana inthe early 60's when you bought your hunting license you got two deer tags, two antelope tags And one elk tag .Had to draw for the Elk of course . I didn't hunt up there, didn't know when I was to leave and all.Ed J, one time while at Camp Atterbury, Ind. I was told to take a 113 down to a creek and hide it there until dark. They didn't want it in a war game for some reason, but anyhow, I was told not to get in the creek because of some species of aquatic wild life was on the indangered list so I did as told. after about an hour just on the other side of the small branch they began to fire heavy artilary. It was so close that every time they fired is like someone hitting you in the chest so I can imagine what one of those shells would do to a white tail. wouldn' be enough left to prove it was a deer.

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from Ed J wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Sargthat reminds me of what i saw a Fort Sill OK back in '66. A whitetail eliminated by a round from a 155mm. I think most would call it overkill because there was nothing left to eat. A few of us had to do some eplaining to the post comander.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Just buy a 30-06 and shoot any grain bullet from a 55 to a 220, problem solved. I go to the Rockies yearly,carry 2 firearms, a 700 30-06 and a 700 25-06. The 25-06 is for W-tails and Lopes only. For bigger game from Mulies up its the 30-06 with l80 gr Scricco's/. A 243 is ok for l00 yds or less on small w-tails, but its a short range firearm and out west you may shoot 4-500 yds. That country will fool you, so carry a rangefinder. I killed a large Deer last year, thought was about l75 yds, but ranged it and was 345 yds. Sure glad I was zeroed in at 200 yds. Can;t wait to get my new MArlin 270 just came out prior to Remington taking over MArlin on 1-31-08.Am sure they will cheapen it as they did the EAA.As for places to hunt, the areas is getting smaller yearly. Most of the Western States found out us easterners will pay a premium for a tress-pass fee and they charge it.Sure glad I got some contacts in NM, C0, WY MT and Neb.As most outfitters now getting 5K up-wards for a 7 day outing,5 days hunt, 2 days goofing off.Be glad when KY and PA have enough Elk to give us a small opportunity to draw a tag. As for Game farms, they gonna be more further east. I don;t like the tall fences, but with land use becomig impossible to hunt on, littlechoice are we gonna have. We can go to the hog/pig country and kill the small porkers,but who cares to kill a piglet. I was raised on a farm, killed all the hogs i care to way back then.Just put me where the Mulies, Elk and Lopes are and I;m happy. But for pst few years have found that the W-tails have invaded the food supply of the Mulies, now they have to compete with the Elk at l2K feet for food till snow gets 10 ft deep and runs them down to the bottoms, then fight with the land-owners and w-tails. You can see more w-tails south of Missoula, Mt along Lolo creek than you can haul out in a truck, but you gotta pay dearly to hunt there. Would love to hunt NM for a huge Elk befoer my hunting days are over, I understand the Indians charge 2 arms and legs to hunt there?????Less than 20 ys ago, I had to travel over 300 miles to even see a W-tail, now they in my back yard.They so inner-breed, that a huge rack is impossible. My Sun and I hunted over a 5 week period herer this year and the largest W-tail we saw was a 7 he killed and a 6 I killed. HORNs about l/2 normal size for that large a animal and we do plant mineral plots for deer and leave mineral blocks out year long.To me, all stats need to have a rule, kill a doe first, then a buck. Here we can kill 2 bucks and 4 does.I believe in SC can kill a deer daily????? O well, I don;t hunt for a kill, just enjoy being out there in the woods , so much to see and at my age, few of those years left.Shoot-often and straight.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey bubba or Yooperjack, Ive made a few knife handles before but all I've got here is some black walnut. These grips are two piece but they wrap around the back in such a way to cover the hammer spring. They could be made in three pieces I guess I'm sure the Mesquite would be pretty on the stainless . Bubba I've got book here on knife making," The Gun Digest BOOK of KNIVES" by Jack Lewis and Roger Combs. They sure make some pretty hunting knives. You know gettig back to overkill, Iwas sitting here thinking about some where around 1964 or 65 while I was stationed in Puerto Rico, there was a Revolution in Santa Domingo just off of Puerto Rico, Task ForceOne, brought about 50 C-130 air craft in there and we had to off-load about fifty Jeeps packed in Cardboard ready to Air drop in Santa Domingo.. We off-loaded these Jeeps so they could just be driven off seeing how they had took back the air strip there. Each one had a 90mm recoilless rifle mounted on them.. Recond that would be overkill on a deer or even an elephant? I bet you wouldn't have to worry about an exit wound.

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from Bernie Kuntz wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Oops! That is supposed to read "on various cartridges", not "are."

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from Bernie Kuntz wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Mike Reeder, I just read your well-written comments are various cartridges and on Jack O'Connor, and I am with you 100 percent!

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Sorry YJ, had sarg on my mind!Bubba

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

sargLook up Rhinehart-Fajen (sp?) online. They probably have the most extensive wood selection of anybody short of H&H or Purdey!The most beautiful piece of wood I've ever laid eyes on was a custom rifle stocked with "Screwbean Mesquite"! To me, Shell Flame Maple is mindboggling!In the past, I've used a little mesquite and some black walnut to make knife handles with and some minor stock repairs. Both are very dense woods and take BC Tru-Oil to unheard of levels! Just keep rubbing and drying 'til you get it where you want it!Bubba

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

sargJust thought about the stainless thing. This mesquite is so dark, it would look absolutely awesome on a "in the white" firearm!!Bubba

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

BubbaWhat do you use to carve grips like that? I've always been intersted in that. We don't have mesquite, but do have Bird's-eye maple that would make beautiful pistol grips.YooperJack

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

That's okay sarg, I got lots of whittlin' sense, I just ain't got no "shapin'" sense!!If you can give me some dimensions, I could send you some scales if you know anyone that would do it for you or even D-I-Y!Take your time and you might be surprised just what you can turn out!Bubba

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Thanks a lot , I'll kick out an order tomorrow .. I'd say they sure would be pretty out of mesquite .. I've got some walnut panelshbut on the PPK they have to be inletted to cover the hammerspring on the backstrap. The ppk-s has an internal hammer spring. It would be easy to make them like a 1911 45 colt. I don't know why they put that spring out sie like that. That's the only difference excep the ppk-s has one more round capacity. The Ky. State Police carry the PPK-s for backup here. This is pretty little gun, all stainless. easy to carry. They are getting very expensive right now, An old man gave this one to me so I wont sell or trade it. I think they are around $900.00 new. The old man is dead now, he was my wife's step dad.I could trade for a pretty nice rifle, better quit that..

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

sargFar as I'm concerned, .50 BMG is a tad small for elephant!! LOL!!!Gun parts:Numrich Gun Parts Corp.shop at e-gunparts.comor toll free 1-866-686-7424.Shotgun News - if not available at you local "news stand", can sometimes be found at local bookstores that carry papers!If I had an FFL, I'd say send it to me and I'd make you a set of mesquite grips. I've got a mesquite burl that is turning out some absolutely awesome figure for knife handles!BubbaP.S. - I'm sure there are more, these two just come easily to mind!

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I don't know what kind of weather you guys are having but it was 8 degree lastnight and going to be about 8 again tonight. I've been sitting on this computer all weekend. My wife is on the other one playing game and we have been holed up here... I had a free pass for a basket ball game at the university last night but just didn't get out. I threatened to go down to the creek and shoot some icecicles off the cliffs but just too cld today.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Bubba, you hit it on head, going after a dangerous critter overkill is ok in my book, but white tail deer are like rabbet, easy to kill, but you have to hit em..Bubba, you or yohan give me an address for some gun parts, need a set of grips for a little Walther ppk in .380 Auto. I've got one that i've cracked and got a chip out of them...

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

sargOn the overkill thing.I saw a deer that had been shot with a .22-250. It was blood shot from ears to flank from a shoulder shot. Both shoulders had to be discarded as they were unfit for consumption! I hunted with a fella that shot an old Rem 742 in .30-'06. He shot Rem Core-lokt in 180 gr I think. Only rarely was he able to have either shoulder processed. THAT'S overkill!I mentioned above about killing a doe with a .429 Berry Mfg 200 gr (think I said 180 gr, but it's a 200 gr) flat nose slug in a .54 cal sabot! Muzzle velocity probably wasn't over 1800-2000 fps max if that! There was probably about 1/2 inch of blood shot meat around the periphery of the wound channel that attributed to the loss of maybe 1/4 pound of meat. She dropped in her tracks, about as dead as dead can get! That is PROPER kill!?Cliff J. bragged to me about killing a small deer with his new Rem 7mm Mag. Seems the deer was walking away from him and a 7 Mag round up the spine opened the little fella up like a banana!Bubba

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Mike you hit at something we have been throwing around, bullet expansion , penetration, etc. By useing the full metal jackets, he got the penetration he needed with out overkill. Had he used something with a softpoint for expansion, he would not have got what he needed most penetration without exit..

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from Mike Reeder wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Regarding K. Bell, in addition to being a remarkable shot he knew elephants inside and out, literally. When he first started ivory hunting, he had trouble dropping them. So he had his men saw an elephant's head in half, lengthwise, in order to know precisely where the brain was and the best path to get there. He did indeed use 175 gr. FMJs in his little seven. Great sectional density and great penetration. Once again, bullet placement and bullet performance trump caliber. It's fine to use a more powerful caliber if you can handle it, but most casual shooters start flinching just at or beyond an '06. Far better to shoot something you shoot well than something more powerful that makes you flinch and pull your shots.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I believe Chev posted once that he bought the Rem 700 MTN rifle in .30-06 because at the time(1986) .280 Were hard to find.. Good choice, Also stated he was going to build a 7x57 on a Mauser action. The man is a man after my own heart. making some very good decisions here. I think .280's are still hard to find here at home. As i've often said I try to stay with Military rounds most of the time because they are usually easier to find. I do have some others but more .308,9mm, 45 's than any thing else.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Dave, In Elmer Keith,s "SAFARI" writings He quotes the .375 H&H as being inadequate for Africa's big game, but never mentions the.300 H&H. I thought he was a big-bore fanatic.... I also noticed in a 1945 Book, theWinchester model64 lever guns going at $62.40 .. Wow, Colt Super Match, $52.75...WOW again..

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Sarg,Not really. I hit em in the eye when they look back at me.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Jim in Mo, talking about bullet expansion, bullet placement. Overkill? Would using a 10ga. shotgun with 00 buckshot on quail be overkill? I believe there is a point where there is "overkill"

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

The above post was by sarg. I just took the cookies off my computer and that takes all stored passwords etc. off also.

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

With this 280-270 discussion, I don't really see much difference with the rounds. It would depend on what I liked as to the decision as what to use.. I reload so it would not really make much difference. To compare the 280 to .338, wellthats a different story. The only thing to make or break a certain cartridge would consumer usage. Don't buy, Don't make.

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from Yohan wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Some yeras ago ( 30 +/-)When I would actually go buy, and or send away for books on African hunting ,.I rememeber reading that Bell Used 175 gr solids to shoot elephants. I think cordite rounds.He did get close to his targets but he also stopped charges with same round,.. according to the books. Apparently the secional density of that projectile being enough to pentrate far enouh to turn outthe lights on Mr Elephant.He did however favor heaver artillary if he thought things might get dicey.That said agian according to what I read,. he was also no fool,..and would abort a situation that began to look like the odds could quickly change against him.The thinking was,.a dead Karimojo would shoot fewer Tembo than a live one,.. there by limiting profit and pleasure.A trait I have noticed in people of verried and diversified decent.It was also written in one of those books.The man was from a genetic stand point simply gifted.While not a large man cpabale of superior physical activities..IE:Apparently one tuff well strung together fellow ,.. with an uncanny sense of timing not to mention being a fantaztic( precision) off hand rifle shot.It also said he was a lot more leery of The water horse ( Hippo) that he was of almost any other critter with four legs.Capstic I recall also recounted the killing of an elephant with a 22 long rifle,.. by a shot a smidge low and behind the front leg,.. now thats food for thought HUGH ?

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Devil Dog,Thanks for the info. I went to the Federal web site and told them what I had read and been told and asked them if the site needed to be updated or if the Whelan can still be had. Their site said a reply will be forthcoming.

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from Alamo wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey SA,I didn't mean to imply there was anything wrong with huntin' ivory. I am a Scot myself and respect anyone who vigorously pursues an enterprise for profit. The fact that Bell did so at great risk to his own life and under sometimes terrible hardship makes it that much more admirable.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

AlamoWhat's so wrong with a Scotsman making a few bucks anyway?? It's what we do when we're not fighting or drinking or .....Jim in MOYou may be onto something there, but as intelligent as elephants are I am sure it didn't take them long to realize that the smell of men meant grave danger.AllApologies for misspelling Mr. Bell's moniker last night, I was just too lazy to look up the right spelling of Karimojo.SA

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

SA,I have read some 'professionals' opinion on the reason Bell was so effective with the 7x57 is because he could get so close. Back in his day many of these elephants had never seen a human or at least never been pursued and harassed, therfore they really had no fear.

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from Yohan wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

GuysCorrect me if I wrong by pointing out the true version .But I know I put eyes to paper one time many many of moons ago ,..Subject being Ole Jack describing his first deer hunt with a 30-40 craig ,..sometime in the 30's I think, shootig a dessert whitetail,.Not that it really matters,.I do however ( again the 2 cents) agree with Herr Petzal only grudgingly as I think Hideous is word better reserved for divorce lawers and I.R.S.heavys ,.That 280 is in general better from all points than 270 unless you do not in fact hand load.Which means you then need to bring cash in by the wheelborrow to pay for amo that will perform up to its potential.one of the most lightnng like kills i ever whitnesed was a large whitetail,.. standing front on to the shooter,..who plcced a 160 gr ( not sure now weather Hornady or Speer) right smack in the middel,..which traversed the animal completly ( next day the dressed deer was at 230) and stopped under the skin at the southern most position of the left hind quarter.I watched the guy who shot it dress that and it looked like a small bomb went off in there,..ok 2 1/2 cents,..

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

guys, after reading your last couple of post, it had nothing to do with overkill,underkill, but bullet placement. to shoot a deer head on, missing the rib cage, striking last rib and exiting, no doubt with very little expansion. this can and will happen with any bullet. Had the bullet hit muscle then vitals, this would have been a different story. I shot a deer this year up too high on the back, nothing to create the expansin I had a large exit wound of course but that was bullet placement. If a bullet hits thin tissue and expands a lot, what would happen had it hit muscle. it probably would have dicinerated, Fragment may have done some damage, but deer would have run. Don't blame bullet expansion on placement.

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from R. Wayne Moorhead wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Why do you label Jack O'Connor as "hideous?

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from GREG wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

In Capsticks elephant hunting video he shoots a .470 nitro express mag. Holy crap whatta cannon its awesome.Shot an ant hill and obliterated it! He did look funny with his shoulder blade sticking out of the middle of his back!LOL I agree with Bubba if I had to choose on it would be the .22 LR. I know you could kill any critter in north America with proper bullet placement.

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from Mike Reeder wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Just to beat a dead horse to a bloody pulp, O'Connor did not favor the .270 to the exclusion of everything else, and in fact praised the .280 on any number of occasions. It didn't take off because the original load featured a 125 grain bullet with less sectional density than the 130 grain .270, and the cartridge was underloaded. You still have to either handload or pay a fortune for premium cartridges to get it to perform. My personal 7 mm choice is still the 7X57, although it requires handloads or premium ammo,too. It can handle larger bullets than the 7mm-08, kills like Raid and is easy on the shoulder. Very little the .280 can do that the 7mm can't. O'Connor was NEVER a one cartridge guy. He thought the world's greatest round was the .375 H&H, he virtually saved the .416 Rigby from oblivion and he had high praise for the '06, 7-mag, .257 Roberts, 6.5 Swede,.244,.338 and .300 Weatherby among many others, and used them all on various and sundry hunts. O'Connor consistently said that any reasonably powerful caliber would work as long as the shot was properly placed, and that no caliber was sufficient if the bullet placement was bad. Petzal may still be thin-skinned about Jack lumping him in with the big-bore boys, but he has also come over to O'Connor's way of thinking. I actually like Petzal's writing style, too, but if I could only keep books by one hunting author it would be surly old Cactus Jack. No one knew more about hunting rifles and hunting and no one before or since has written about both so comprehensively and so well.

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from Devil_Dog wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Jim in MO,I have a Rem700 in .35 Whelen that my wife gave to me two years ago. It is as good a production rifle as you'll get from a major manufacturer, and I am very happy with it. Topped with a Leupold 2.5-8x, my handloads, and shooting sticks, I can keep everything in a 6-inch circle out to 300 yards.Federal still lists the 225 Trophy bonded load online, but I've never seen it in stores. Nosler has three loads for sale over MidwayUSA's website, reasonable prices too. Handloading is the way to do it though, but I realize not everyone is in to that.As for game harvested with my rifle, it was blooded in Africa this year, maintaining a 'one shot, one kill' throughout the trip. The only bullete I recovered was in the far side of a gemsbok taken quartering on at about 50 yards.Not a lot of recoil either once you get to know the rifle. I'm a big proponent of the .35 Whelen and Remington's offerings.Just my two cents

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from Alamo wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

SA-It may be more PC to refer to Karamjo's elephant bag as "control", but he was purely and simply an entreprenuer, shooting jumbo for the ivory.He also made use of he 6.5x54 MS, and was said to never use an expanding bullet, only solids.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Stirred up some stuff about "over-", "under-" kill.I was also, once upon a time, of the old school that, perfect bullet performance was the projectile expending (not expanding) all it's energy "inside" the target! Ergo: no exit wound! I've recovered three slugs from deer I've shot. One was a 150 gr Rem Core-Lokt from a .30-30. The deer was shot at nearly 200 yards, facing me dead on. The bullet entered between the right shoulder blade and ribs, deflected, crossed the rib cage, broke the last rib exiting the deer only to re-enter at the point (knee) of the left hip. The bullet was under the skin on the deer's butt.The second was a Sierra 90 gr HP in .277 cal sitting on enough IMR 3031 to get a muzzle velocity of around 3600 fps! Deer was approximately 125 yards broadside. I didn't recover the entire slug but the greater portion of the jacket and bits and pieces of core.The third was a .429 Berry MFG 180 FP sitting on 90 grs of FFFg in a .54 cal sabot! Deer was broadside, 25 yards and hit a tad high behind the shoulder, breaking the spine. The bullet lodged in the off shoulder blade.None of these deer traveled any further than to hit the ground.Of the three deer, the one shot with the .429 FN had the least damage as far as the table is concerned. Everything I've killed with the .429 FN out of a black powder rifle dies quickly with little "meat" damage! I love it!!Nice blood trail, good meat!Bubba

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from Steve Castleberry wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Poachers love the .22 Long Rifle. Very little noise to alert the law, and once again, a bullet in the lungs makes things die.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Capstick favored the BIG BORES for his African Hunting. In one of his peices Capstick actually assailed the .458 Winchester Magnum as 'anemic.'W.D.M 'Carimojo' Bell was the canny Scotsman who shot elephants (many elephants for control purposes) with the 7 x 57 Mauser, legend has it he died of old age too. Must have had nerves of steel and incredible ability to place his shots!Moral here is we can agree to disagree on these things.SA

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from Steve Castleberry wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

I love Elmer Keith.. just re-read "Shotguns By Keith" a few months ago. There used be be a buckshot load that strung the pellets together with wire... made for very tight groups. If Elmer wanted to shoot everything with a 10 gauge, that's cool by me. Truth is, a guy should shoot what he's comfortable shooting. Doesn't matter to the deer if it's shot through the ribs with a .22 Hornet or a 458 Winchester, the deer is going to die!

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

I know that Dave P was just using tongue-in-cheek. Dave claims to be good looking because he shoots a .280, and jokingly said Jack O'Connor was "hideous" because he shot a .270. I know that Dave has the highest respect for the late Jack O'Connor. Jack and I used to correspond. Jack actually answered his mail--around 5,000 pieces a month. Besides, Jack once took a mild swipe at Dave for edging into the Keith "big-bore for everything" camp, but Dave has since moved much closer to Jack's position, namely, matching the cartridge to the game. Jack didn't disdain big bores for big, dangerous game, but he felt they were true overkill on deer and elk. Jack knew that bullet construction and shot placement were more important than bullet diameter per se. No, folks, Dave wouldn't deliberately stir up a hornet's nest like THAT . . . he'd sooner go into a meeting of the League of Women Voters and tell them that women's suffrage should be repealed!

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from Petzal is a coward wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

This is Steve, just used the nameline to get my point across.Read columns by Petzal today and they are full of philosophies championed by Jack O'Connor a generation ago. Why he would use "hideous" to describe O'Connor is hard to understand. Maybe he is man enough to explain it in detail, but my guess is, he is not. Next time you hear Petzal opine that bullet placement is important, just crealize he got that from O'Connor. That generation was still in the "bigger is better" era, but, O'Connor took a different approach and wrote that it is better to shoot a gun well, thus placing the bullet correctly, than to spray big bullets across the canyon. The .270 is alive today because of O'Connor. Nothing really benefits from Petzal's writing, except maybe a bent toward direspecting and falsely criticizing your superiors. Read his stuff, closely, next time. You could write it. Recycling is alive and well with Mr. Petzal.

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

I bought a Remington Mountain Rifle at the Heilbronn Rod and Gun Club in Germany in 1986. I had the choice of one in .280 or in .30/06. It was hard to find .280 Remington ammo in the rod and gun clubs, and gunwriters back in the States were talking about the problem of finding ammo in most gun stores. So I figured that I'd be better off with the '06. It turned out the Mountain Rifle would shoot 1/2-inch, three-shot groups at 100 yards. The .30/06 was plenty flat shooting enough, and it had a much bigger ammo selection than the .280. I've never looked back. I'm sure the .280 is a fine cartridge, but you would have to handload it to develop its full potential. In the meantime, if I'm feeling too lazy to reload, I can get some of the "magnumized" loads for the .30/06, e.g., Hornady light magnum, and be treading on the heels of .300 Winchester Magnum performance. I also found that the slightly bigger hole in the barrel reduces weight! That Mountain Rifle is perfectly balanced, and it's my "go-to" rifle for most deer hunting. The .300 Weatherby is left back in the rack most of the time. I am, however, going to put together a 7x57 on a Mauser action for a light-recoiling "beanfield" rifle. It will be used at ranges up to about 300 yards, although most ranges from the deer stand will be at around 75 - 100 yards. Who knows? Maybe that 7x57 will "morph" into a .280 and make Dave P happy!

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from Steve Castleberry wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Petzal uses "hideous" to describe Jack O'Connor? That's pure jealousy. O'Connor was a better man, better outdoorsman and much better writer than Petzal. Seems Mr. Petzal can't muster up more than 20 column inches on most occasions. Go dig out your old magazines and see how good O'Connor was.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Jim I shot a deer one time down in a deep creek close to home.With my .308 150 grSp. The deer never run but about 20 ft. That time I wished it had run for half a mile. I drug the thing out of that hole. Just about killed me. I'm serious, I've never had a deer run more than a little bit.

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from Ed J wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Jim I beleive in over kill. whats over kill at 50 yds is under kill at 300yds. I've seen a lot of guys with .243's wound deer with the wrong bullet. 87 gr bullets are not deer bullets. at close range they blow up and at long range there isn't enough energy to penetrate to the vitals.Overkill, My brother uses a 308 Norma magnum nothing like 2000 ft pds of energy in the dirt on the other side. Oh he lives in MT it is a supurb elk gun.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

well Jim you just answered the million dollar question... Had you shot the deer with the .35 the slower bullet would probably have mushroomed to twice it's size now look at the mass two time the mass of the origional bullet but not enough to rip plumb through and exit But mushrooming just before exit creating a large exit wound, not where it should have, deer takes off but dies shortly there after. Havei got you totally confused yet.. It really is a fine line but you can have an overkill.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Sarg,Dammit you made me git up.I just don't believe there is such a thing as overkill. I don't. I know damn good and well if the game doesn't drop it's gonna run to the bottom of a big gulley and die. Now I gotta chore.Last year shot a doe standing directly at me right into the chest (I hate those shots) with my '06 using 165 Interlocks handloaded. She took off downhill into a gulley and lukily tripped where she died. If I would have used my 35 Rem (the range was 45yds.?) Her butt would have been anchored right there and not gave me thaqt scare of going down that gulley for her. I don't know what you guys definition of a gulley is but where I hunt I call em 'billy goat hill'.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Well Jim, we all grew up with the old writers and experts and at one time no one wanted their bullets to exit the animal. grant you they willbleed out that way but just wasn't the norm. Agood hunting bullet was to expand to twice it's size retain it's mass, not explode and not exit.. as big a thrill as it was to bag a nice deer it was also something to search for the bullet and exanine the mushroom, I really believe some people use too much overkill on deer., but that my belief. I may be old fashioned .. I also enjoy the hunt as much as bagging a deer. A bad day hunting is better than a good day at work anytime..

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Dammit I'm still in the middle of the road if I want a bullet to exit or not but it sure does seem looking at the past (not that I'm the great white hunter) the ones that didn't exit dropped quicker.I'm talkin' to much, I'm gonna sit back and let the dogs fight.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

you know, I've never shot a deer twice or had one to run more than a couple of yrds. I don't like a large exit wound or a bullet too small that the deer runs pretty far. I'm not going to shoot any deer with the 150 gr round nose i used this year(.308). It may have been where I hit the deer but I don't like for the bullet to exit the animal. A whitetail deer at 50 yds. don't need a bullet that expands too quick or breaks up.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Bubba,Your right but you better be a damn good shot and go for the temple area into the brain. You could even do that with moose. Don't laugh. If Capstick or whoever it was could get into an elephants skull with a 7x57 then you could to. Me. I'd take a 12ga. Provided the rules let me have shotshells and slugs.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

You recond he is having dinner with Her, He may come out with a new Sako or something in .280

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from sarg wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Bubba, you are right about the .22Jim I have never loaded any thing with R7, I do not have a lyman Manual either.. I mostly use a powder that works in several different cartridges, The IMR 3031 will load most everthing I load except the .204 Ruger which I have just started loading. I use BLC-2 in it I also like IMR 4064 but it takes about 2-3 gr. more than IMR3031 for the same loads. I've just loaded 10 rounds of the .204 , don't have any brass yet. just the initial 10 rounds to zero. Without looking, I believe BLC-2 will work in the .308 also., Tell you what happened last year, I was at the Hillbilly flea market on day, in Ashland Ky. A guy was looking at a lyman turrent press. He would pick it up, lay it down done this several times, I finaly asked him if he was going to buy or not . He said no, go ahead. I asked the man what he wanted, he said I'll take $15.00 for both. I look over and there was another one with .357 pistol die in it. Had to buythem. Next day I sold one with the dies for $15.00 to a guy at work. I like the press better than the Lee I was using. Really should have kept both.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph,New York! Maybe that's why his magisty isn't with us tonight he's having dinner with-can I say it- Hillary!

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

If it makes any difference! (and it doesn't!) If I had my choice of one and only one cartridge rifle, it would be the .22 LR. Why?Well, first off, you can tote a butt load of ammo and not be overloaded! If you are careful, you can take any animal on this (U.S. of A.) continent with it. (agreed, properly applied within range!) Less noise! Small game up to mooseses!!!Now I know that this wasn't the scheme, but somebody mentioned it above so I thought, what the heck!!Bubba

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Siver Arrow,You are so right about dropping the deer on YOUR hunting locale. It would be so sickening to have a deer top a ridge and hear another shot. It is very funny that with my '06 and seemingly more power the deer do run, but with the fat, heavy, and very slow 35 Rem. they seem to get 'pushed' to the ground and rarely get up.

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from ncpilot wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

I finally got a left-hand, (used) Remington 700 Bdl in 30-06. Wanted to find it in .280, (rare). Still, the .06 is accurate and a great rifle. Now to try to find the left hand 700 in .244. I know, it probably does not exist.

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from ncpilot wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

I finally got a left-hand, (used) Remington 700 Bdl in 30-06. Wanted to find it in .280, (rare). Still, the .06 is accurate and a great rifle. Now to try to find the left hand 700 in .244. I know, it probably does not exist.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Jim, no I never shot deer with this load, and 220gr at 2200fps would be a good bear load. i always said that if hunted black bear it would be with the Marlin 336 in.35 Rem.I like the combination.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Sarg,Right now I'm loading 200 Sierra's and Interlocks with 31 gr. of RL7.Also something you should be cautious about is that the loading data in the Lyman 47 edition is overly liberal on almost all rifles of 358 persuasion. They claim I can load 33gr of R7, that is excessive. I've compared their data with many other manuals. Don't know how they got their 358 data so wrong.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Sarg,Have you ever shot whitetail with that bullet?Also for anyone else with a 35 Rem. Buffalo Bore does load a round that has a 220gr. bullet that they claim at 2200 fps. Sounds like a dandy black bear cartrige but last I checked they want 39.95 a box, geez.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Hey Dave Pitzel, I'll write your next article if you'll tune this old Cherry ,1985 Rem. 700 in .308 Win....

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from sarg wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Hey any of you guys read any of the works by Fred Bear?

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from sarg wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Peter, what's your favorite all around gun. If you only had one what would it be....

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Recond Dave's gone to the mail box, probably got an arm load of longarms..

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from sarg wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Dave 's not on here, this is Sat. night He out on the town.

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from Peter wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Mr Petzal,This is totally off the subject but what is your favorite cartridge for hunting?

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from Peter wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Its not because he could do something most poeple cant ..take pretty much anything on plannet with what a lot of people think "wimpy, small, not enough power cartridge like the .270(including an elk at 600 yards)" was it:-)

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from Peter wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

So dave , what do ya have a against o' conner

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from sarg wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Jim in Mo, you can try 37gr of Imr 3031 but do it with caution, it is a max loading. I never would load it.Pg.280

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from sarg wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Jim in Mo... wandering what a little more FPS would do in your .35 Rem.? Find someone loading for a .357 or .38 spec. and borrow a few 158 gr. hollow points and load them in your .35 Rem.(.358). try 35.5 gr. of IMR 3031. good for 2100 fps.instead of 1800 or 1900 fps. This is according to HORNADY HANDBOOK, Vol.II, pg. 280. I've loaded this many times in my Marlin 336 in .35 Rem. when I had it. I also loaded 125 gr. hollow points. Just load a couple and see if you like to plink with them. My book also shows load with 4227, and2400, and 630.

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from brian wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Dave, atleast O'Conner didn't look eight months pregnant

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Anybody but Bill Belicheat and the Patriots... maybe the Chargers will do them in, they probably don't have any illegal tapes in their vault on the back up QB Volek!

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from Scott wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

As I lament the last day of our "late firearms season" for antlerless deer, I consider that I live in the slave state of Illinois: Where we are limited to shotguns with slugs, the handgun, or the muzzleloading rifle for deer. Ahh gentlemen, appreciate your prerogative to choose either round for the pursuit. I choose the .50 cal. flintlock for my hunt, as it is difficult for me to shoot anything other than rabbits or turkeys with a shotgun.But to add one note of dissent: Hang the .270, .260, 280, 6mm, .243 etc, etc, etc,. Hail the 30-06!

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

SAI do have some affinity for the NY Giants. They gave us LOMBARDI! I tend to genuflect when his name is spoken.YohanWhen they speak of pulling the rifle from my cold and dead fingers, it'll be my 94 Winchester!No scope, not drilled and tapped. I'll keep that rifle until I'm planted, and then it'll be my son's, as it was my father's before me. Its a great gun to carry on drives and still hunting. Not so great from a tree stand.As far as too many calibers, hey, its about zero outside. What would I do if I didn't have all these interesting comments to read?YooperJack

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Humph!!!Comparing the .270 Win to the .280 Rem is like comparing apples to pig knuckles! It's an excercise in futility and totally boring. The only thing the two have in common is basic case and the fact that either is deadly on deer! Pick one; practice, practice, practice; go hunting; kill deer!Bubba

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

YohanAgreed with you all the way to that last sentence!Giants are gonna eat Favre's lunch!Go GIANTS!SA

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from Yohan wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

This to the YooperI really hope you keep the faith with your 30 -30 ,.. not that you shouldnt have another gun/s .But the ole 30-30 is some romantic cartridge,..Just the sound of saying 30-30 says deer hunting.It says tradition consistancy and efficiancy as well as moderation.Which are all the best qualities in guns and in people ,.. and when it goes bang its just plain cool,..Love the crackNever had one until my Dad ( the old gun smith) died,.. I was given his,..336 Marlin by my mother,.. also now gone.In my time I have used (as some know) many rounds to take well over 100 whitetails the past 40 yars or so ,.. 06 , 7x 57,. 8 x 57 (A 12 ga a 20 ga ,.. 45-70,. which is a hell of a lot of fun,..the 6.5 swede and yes many many moons ago .22 long rifle.But only onc and the deer were attacking s I had no choice but to defend myslef.Still I have never used a better deer gun than a 30-30,.. To be certain more powerfull and flatter shooting rounds ,.. but simply stated nothing better for its intended purpose,. deer under 150 yds.For short to medium range deer hunting I simply cannot fathom a better tool,.. or one that is more plesant shoot and to gaze upon. (Both the 94 and the 336)Especailly after a day in the deer woods after it had faithfully done its job again.I used to sneer at the little "pop guns" ( 30 -30s) that my brother and father and others carried,. when they owned waymore expensive arms with far superor ballistics.But the more deer i shot the more evident it became ,..most of the shooting and killing was done under 100 yards and that out to 150 yds it was just as effective as anything else ( proper bullet placement assumed) and it was more fun to use,..Ammunition was and is resonable and it did did not rattle your retinas when you touched it off.Now I have too many guns, some purchased, some gifts,. some just came my way ,.. but if I live another lifetime I would never be without a 30-30 and a 12 ga shotgun and a 20 gage shotgun and a 22 LR,.. Oh and a 30-06 or a 280 or 8 x 57 YUK YUKAs I go through this life ,. it gets to be more about he flat crack of the experiance rather than the rolling crahing thunder of express rifles,..Unless course you trying keep something from eating you,..That however unless you have seen big foot or run afowl of an ugly black bear is not a concern to us in the upper midwest.Go Packers ,.. whuuup some Giantbutt.

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from One Great 7-08 wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Why choose the .280 when you can have a 7-08? It kicks alot less, its more acurate, cheaper to load for, factory ammo is good, and it has the same effect when shot at animals...they die rather quickly. Dont beleave me...it clones the 7x57 which has been killing all sorts of large critters since before we were twinkles in our fathers eyes. And yes, i like the 7-08 more than the 7x57 for the above mentioned reasons.Im not .280 bashing, im simply stating its not that under-rated, and its not nearly the top of the 7s.

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from Del in Kansas wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

While I'm on my soap box let me say that I am a big fan of Stoney point shooting sticks. The bipod I have (got at Bass Pro)are light, adjustable and snap on and off. They give me a very steady sight picture. I've never needed more than 1 shot while using them.

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from Del in Kansas wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

Jim in Mo,I have never owned a Whelen but have had 3 350 Rem mags. The 350 is the ballistic twin of the Whelen and works in a short action. Back in the 80's I was stationed in AK and bought the 350 Mod 700 classic. Using 250 grain Speers shot moose, black bear, Griz, and 6 sitka blacktail deer (Afognak Island). Everything was 1 shot bang flop kill except the deer. They almost always ran at least a few yd even when shot thru the chest with that big bullet. It broke both shoulders and exited on both bears. Rem made a run of the 700 classic in 35 Whelen a year or two after the 350 if I remember correctly. There's probably some good used one's out there. The other 2 350's was mod 600 and mod 660 Rem's. They are great guns to take fishing in AK for bear insurance (light and short) but the recoil is brutal. However when your pucker factor is high you don't notice recoil. I've also shot Missouri whitetails with the 225 gr nosler with excellent results. Tho now days I shoot the 2506 Kimber because of the long shots from my favorite stand.

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from Bump wrote 6 years 13 weeks ago

MY opinion is that the most underrated cartridge is the .375 winchester. Winchester introduced it in the 80's as a brush gun. I bought a Marlin. Great gun here in the "MITTEN STATE" . Taken 15 deer and a bear. The bear went 35 yards. Still on my 1st 4 boxes of ammo. Take it to the range to check zero, GO HUNTING.IT WORKS

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from Warren Petoskey wrote 5 years 33 weeks ago

I am looking at a Swiss Mauser 6.5x55. There are places I hunt where a long shot (300 yards) is possible. I shoot from a rest and was a sniper in a CERT unit in another life, so I know how to shoot. What are some good loads for the 6.6x55?

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from Edward J. Palumbo wrote 5 years 38 weeks ago

Michael,I wanted to voice my appreciation of the 6.5 x 55mm. My first opportunity to use one was in the late '60s, and it was a good first impression - a friend's sporterized M96 Mauser equipped with a receiver sight that that performed accurately. Others I tried over the years had one virtue in common: accuracy. Since the late '70s, I've had two 6.5x55s; one built on a Rem 700 long action with a sporterweight barrel, another a rebarreled Model 1909 Argentine Mauser with a heavier (varmint contour) barrel, used primarily on targets. Both rifles were gratifyingly accurate. Why this cartridge hasn't received a better reception in the USA is a mystery to me. Those who own rifles chambered for this cartridges are usually fiercely loyal to it. I've also had two rifles in .257 Roberts, often recommended as a good choice for the recoil-conscious. Objectively (and not surpisingly), the 6.5mm easily outperformed that cartridge. I'd say you made an excellent choice.Good shooting,Ed

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 42 weeks ago

Capstick,Just got back from the dark continent. Glad to hear you did so well. Took my '06, shot 2 rogue elephant and a cape buff. just for the hell of it. Cheerio chap!

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from Capstick wrote 5 years 42 weeks ago

I once killed the Big Five plus hippo and croc with the .280, fine cartridge.

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from Mr. Smith wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

Dave, I've got to ask this, can you give concrete examples of how "Big Jack" was such a A$$hole? I talking about close to the source stories, not BS. I always enjoy our writings, all the best...

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from Joe in NC wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

I don't understand what all the hubbub is about. Everyone uses what they're comfortable with regarding noise, recoil, and their perceived notions of how dead their quarry is. I own .270, .280, and .308 chambered rifles, simply because I hunt in North America. ( Bad timing, less than successful familial forefathers, and genetic happenstance kept me from being born into an African-safari-taking family )My little old Remington Sportsman 78, chambered in .308 which I bought through the "Shotgun News" some 25 years ago has never needed more than one shot to dispatch any game animal I've aimed it at. This isn't by any means a premium grade rifle, but it has never failed to stop elk, mule deer, whitetails, and pronghorns right where they stood. In over 30 years of hunting, it's my go-to, one shot, one kill rifle. Common sense will make me go to something bigger if I decide to hunt for big, dangerous game like brown bear, ( call it a desire to survive the encounter, if you will ) but any cartridge that will stop big game from taking another step is enough cartridge, period. There's a reason for the the military using the .308 for so many years. It's simply an efficient round when used with good shot placement, and it works. In my humble opinion, every other cartridge is just as effective in it's own right for it's designed purpose. You guys can blow bigger holes in animals, suffer hearing loss, and hire a live-in chiropractor if you'd like, but the .308 simply does what it was designed to do. It's probably the most overlooked, most maligned, under-popularized round still in production today. Put the round where it's supposed to go, don't shoot beyond your personal ability, observe good firing technique, and watch the animal drop in it's tracks. Don't substitute firepower for skill, or blame your personal inadequacies on your equipment. Nobody will believe you, anyway.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 9 weeks ago

Gary,Don't do that! The whole idea of this blog is for people with the same passions to express ideas and quite often useful information.Dont' get your feelings hurt over Mr. O, everyone gets a little pissed on this site once in awhile.

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from gary wrote 6 years 9 weeks ago

Only read this blog because Serengeti rep. refered me to comments from the show on the their rifle. But, after reading this comment about Mr.Oconner, I am going to cancel my subscribtion to Field&Stream, and never read another. I own both a 270, and a 280, and both are excellent cartridges. But just as Mr Oconner mentioned many, many times, no cartridge is any better than the person shooting it.

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from James Westbrook wrote 6 years 9 weeks ago

I want a Marlin XL-7 in 280. What is the best way to convert?

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from sarg wrote 6 years 9 weeks ago

Clay Thanks for info, But I would never load anything larger than 150 gr. in the .308 unless it would be 168gr. HPBT.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

SargThe heaviest bullet I’ve seen loaded in a 308 Win was a 220 grain. A couple of shooters at Eielson AFB Alaska were playing around 250 grain Barnes in 30-06 and 300 Win Mag. Those 250 round noses had a glide path of a rock at Fairbanks International Airport because of the round nose.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Clay have you ever heard of anyone loading a heavy bullet in the .308 win.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Guys, from all the exp. and readings I've ever come up with, the .308 Win, By saying this I mean the Cart. not the bullet , can do any thig the 06 can do up to and including the 150 gr. Now there may be some loads where a .308 may do better than the 06but the the right loads I don't think so. With the heavier bullet the 06 of course has the advantage of greater case capacity , thus can use a slower burning powder. I agree with clay, the .308 win with the 165gr match or the 190 gr,. may do great at targets,but this bullet should not be suitable for hunting. I don't believe it will hold together for a good kill on larger game.. It like the old question, which burns faster, regular gas or high octaine.. the regular burns faster thus begins to lose energy quicker than High octane. put this in the same respect with the available powders and their burn rate. If any of you are familar with steam engines you should know that steam expands 1700 times it vol. creating a longer power push on a piston than a lot of other energy sources. Why does a gear driven steam locomotive pull 13% grades while the standard rod steam engine can only pull 3% grades..Clay knows why they inject distilled water in a B-52 engine for greater thrust..

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

The 8x57 is indeed underrated since it is underloaded by most manufacturers and load tables due to the old rifles around that aren't up to snuff for higher pressures.But to say the 8x57 outperforms the .30-06 is simply not the case. If it were, the competitive shooters and handloaders would be all over it, which they are not.

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from O Garcia wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

if by "our" you mean an American cartridge, then I would have to say the .300 Savage or .257 Roberts should win the most underrated award.but if the cartridge could be of any origin, as long as it is available here, then my choice would be the 8x57. Compare its "WW2" ballistics with the .30-06, the German round with its smaller case actually outperforms the bigger '06 (remember, World War 2 numbers, with the .30-06 only making 2,700 fps with only a 150-grain bullet).The 8mm will really do everything. And it is practically dead.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

sarg By the way, like I said before the 190 BTSP is better all the way out to and past 1000 yards than the 7mm Rem Mag with a 175 grain. That was Mr. Joyce W. Hornady innovation of a fine projectile :)

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

YooperJack, the 308 has a nickname, 30-06 short! 30-06 shoots the same given bullet about 175-200 fps faster, giving you more knock down power and flatter trajectory. But I really don't think the critter you shoot will know the difference to be honest with you! Besides, the #1 error a hunter makes in bullet choice, is using too heavy of a bullet! 130 grain will knock a Caribous $%^ in the dirt which translates to having plenty of knock down for the biggest and baddest monster buck!

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Sarg: Some sites back you mentioned about hunting in Montana. I love that state an the longer season. Jut wish I cukld stay the full 5 weeks or till fill all my tags. Also you mentioned about KY. Do you live in KY? if so can you give me a few details on applying for a license for Elk up there. I;m getting too old to go 2800 miles to hunt, need to be closer to N.C. if possible. Any info you can supply on how to get a tag, guide, wher to go etc. I would appreciate it. And yep, I;m the 06 guy who continues to preach about their ability. I did yesterday pace a order for one of the new Marlins in 270. I want to see for myself the difference on game.Naw, just want a excuse to purchase another new gun. I kinda figure at my age (73) I better buy what I want and can affod now, as fewe hunts left in these old bones. But I cannot think of any medication thats works as well as a few days out in the country side. Back to MT. What a thrill it is to sit at l0K feet at Lolo pass and watch the lower portion of Lolo Creek. If game comes by great, but just to get out there on a cold Am and see gods creatures is worth all the $$$ in the US mint. I am disabled and must sit and hunt, but can walk about l00 yds off the road and hid behind a huge pine. Been going for many years, have goten game each year. I also like Colorado but don;t like their short 5 to 7 day seasons, plus a Bull an Deer tag about 200.00 more than Montana. And for Lopes, WY the place to go and for Mulies go to Nebraska but stay back in the farm area away from the creeks, as the W-tails taken over them. O any place in the Rockies great to be when hunting time comes. But would like info on Elk in KY if you will please. Thanks the Old Gunslinger down South in N>C>

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

sargThe 308 is great in my book up to 162/172 grain bullets. Anything heavier, you really need a 06! I don’t know where they are getting the idea that the 308 is more accurate than the 06? The only advantage I see is the reduced recoil. The next time someone is shooting prone, stand directly behind the shooter. Upon firing/recoil of the rifle, you will see a shock wave travel the length of the shooters body to his toes and back up his body.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

If I remember correctly, someone asked, either in this blog or the last, whether to buy a 308 or a 30-06. No one answered for a while so I responded that 30-06 would use bigger bullets. I was castigated by a couple of people. Same Dia. Same bullets. NowSarge, you're saying that you can load bigger in the 06?YJ

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from sarg wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Clay in a post a little earlier, you were talking about the 190 gr. .308 bullets, that my friend is the advantage the 30-06 has over the .308 win. Good post.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

PS270 130 grain is hell on Caribou!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Mtn Hunter270 out west witha 130-140 grain pill will do the job!

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Clay:Amen brother and thanks for satisfying my curiosity.TW, Flip, and other interested in the 6 x .284:If you get Versus channel on Dish or Direct TV tune in for this week's version of BEST OF THE WEST. You will see one of my neighbor John Porter's hunters shoot another ram (this time at just over 400 yards) with the 6 that John built for himself but everyone else uses. I believe you will find it interesting, besides they are hunting in my country.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Ok you guys. I;ve preached for ever about the 30-06 and I continue to think it's the one gun of choice, but after reading today in Shooting Times about the new Marlin Bolt gun, I gotta have one of those. With several 06's I;ve ordered a 270????? now will see if it's up to a 06 out west. Really, I wanted a haul about gun IN blk syn/blue bbl that looked ok and after reading about the Marlin decided to spend a tad more and find out if the 270 is as good as you guys say. I may be sorry when I don;t down that big Elk, but will see. I will take the 06 as a primary hunting gun, but if weather is foul, will try the 270. Now unless some gun Co comes out with another must have gun, I think I got all I will use in my remaining years. Just need to go West this fall and try the new gun out. Now got to buy another scope, rings, etc. Never ends does it. But for a nice rack or a great day out in the wide open space, can;t think of a better way to enjoy life and spend a little $$. Yep, one other thing, just pray will br around for next season to come around. Shoot-um-straight and often.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Ishawooa, the other night, I looked a t Norma’s home page to see what changes that they might have made in the past 34 years. Like all the rest in general, nothing has become of them. Still got the Ol’Norma’s round nose like those 130 grain 30 cal that had a steel jacket. Only loaded 100 of them and wasn’t impressed with them, at all. It seems obvious to me that there are those, as long as they sale something that is mediocre they are content like the other hand me down companies to their affiliated, born with, congenital, consanguine, consanguineous, genealogical, inborn, inbred, inherited, innate, lineal, maternal, old, past, paternal, totemic, tribal. Of all of this, no matter how you slice it and dice it, something that made it good of the past, gets lost!

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from sarg wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Dr.Ralph, ugly women make better lovers, because when they make love they put all they got in it thinking it may be their last, same as older guns, you can alway do better with a gun you are not afraid to use ...

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Jim in MO / DelI was me, WA Mtnhunter, that posted the .35 Whelen comments. As for the Nosler Ballistic Tip BT, it is an inadequate bullet for elk or large game. The folks at Superior Ammo advised me against the NBT several years ago when ordering a sample box of various loads. The TBBC and Swift A-Frame take advantage of the .35 Whelen's ballistics. I would be afraid a NBT would come apart at close range on a large bear or elk.I'm sure the 200 grain Core Lokt is more than adequate for deer and black bear, although I have not shot one head of game with it. I have only used Conley's 225 gr SAF and Federal 225 gr TBBC. I get an average of 2616 fps from a 22 inch barrel. The Nosler Customs promise 2725 or similar, but chronograph about 2620 in my rifle. The Partitions don't shoot as well either.The 225 TBBC from Federal has gotten it done for me. I don't shoot the Whelen enough to justify my time handloading. I spend most of my handloading time with my .257 Roberts and .358 Winchester.

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from 007 wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Sorry for the late entry on the .35 Whelen. I printed this discussion off to read it in the "reading room" and just saw the Whelen info. No knock on the Whelen whatsoever but some of you may remember seeing my previous entries in other F&S blogs about the rifle I'm having built. I did a lot of reading and research and thought long and hard about a Whelen but settled on the .338-06, better bullet selection with higher BC as a rule, and better performance at longer distance, longer than for what I am qualified, I'm sure, with a 200 gr. Hdy. interlock. Just FYI, I have to agree too with the .257 Rbts. fans as I have a Ruger Ultralite in that cal. that weighs all of 6 1/4 #, thrives on handloaded 120 gr. Remington Corelokts (morons at Big Green had to go and discontinue them after I found a good load for my gun) and carries like a willow switch in the hand. On a seperate topic, is there ANYBODY AT ALL running for pres. that we can trust on the 2nd amendment? At this point it reminds me of going into a nice buffet and finding nothing but baloney. Good hunting, all.

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from Del in Kansas wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Oh and I used the Speer 250 gr hotcore handloaded.

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from Del in Kansas wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Jim and Unknown.As you probably know the Whelen and the 350 Rem mag are ballistic twins. Also I might add the 350 gets it done in a lighter shorter package.Anyway, Alaska has a wild herd of bison near Delta junction. When I was stationed at Fairbanks a guy I new used a Rem Mod 6oo in 350 mag to take a large bull with the factory 200 grain core lokt bullet. He had the bullet and it was a perfect mushroom. I myself shot everything except caribou with a Mod 700 classic in 350 with outstanding results.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph,I didn't mean to imply the Whelan was handloading only I was speaking of the 210 BT. I haven't seen that one offered loaded.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph:To further validate your statement regarding the .22 LR I offer the following: An old rancher friend in Montana and I were sitting in his gun room one cold afternoon watching football. This gunroom made most gunstores appear somewhat lacking in comparision. Out of the clear I asked him if he only could take one rifle to defend, survive, and enjoy which would it be. Without hesitation he walked over and picked up a nice but well used Model 41 Winchester. He replied "This one and a brick (of .22 LR ammo)". It is difficult to bring forth a valid argument against such a choice even though the rancher friend was well aware that I included big game hunting in the question.Clay:I have had no experience with Norma bullets other than noticing them on the shelves. Is it your opinion that the magnet would be equally applicable to other bullets they manufacture? I suppose I could research it but figure you know the answer off the top of your head.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

To try to bring some semblance of an argument over "Our Most Underrated Cartridge" in this blog which was apparently named that for no good reason having read through the posts... 22 Long Rifle and I defy any man to argue this point..35 Whelen for hand loaders only? I don't roll my own but can buy 310 gr. Woodleigh Welcores and 250 gr. Nosler Partitions from Midway or 250 gr. Swift A-Frames from Conley Precision Cartridges.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

I believe Remington is caught between the 35 Whelen and 350 Mag. I think Remington's heart is with the 350 Mag although the cartridge and concept died on the vine.It's no trick to boost velocity to 2700+ handloading the Whelen with any 225 grain bullet for me. I found all 225 grain 35-cal bullets are fine. If a hunter wants to hunt the hairy, mean/big stuff, the 250-grain bullet is the way to go in 338-cal and in 35-cal. I find no reason to load a lighter bullet for big game in a medium-bore rifle.Why major manufacturers salt the deck on the 35-Whelen and 338-06 is a mystery.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

To unknown on your post to me,Its very adequate for whitetail, mule deer, blackbear. Nosler even has a 210gr ballistic tip specifically for the Whelan. Its a handloading propsition only.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

To unknown on your post to me,Its very adequate for whitetail, mule deer, blackbear. Nosler even has a 210gr ballistic tip specifically for the Whelan. Its a handloading propsition only.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 11 weeks ago

I remember spilling a box of 130 grain soft point bullets at a gun store. The owner picked them up with a magnet. The brand name? NORMA!

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Jim in MOThe .35 Whelen 225 gr TBBC load is a game getter. I have taken numerous elk and mule deer at ranges out to 264 yards without issues. Hopefully they will continue to make this load. As many rifles that Remington chambers in .35 Whelen, I can't understand why they don't make a Swift A-Frame or other 225 grain load in their Premier line. Is the 200 gr Core Lokt adequate? Big Green must think so.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Flip & TW:I also have chosen to use 140 gr in .270 and .280 plus a load with 150 gr Partitions for the two .280s that groups amazing well. The 7 Rem Mag usually gets 160 gr. while the new custom 7 Ultra fires 168 gr Bergers with a couple brands of 160s that I have not had time to load and test. Berger 180 VLDs are to long for my magazine and throat. The 7-08 likes the 140s also. As I mentioned in a far distant entry I had a 6.5 x .284 back in the seventies and probably have some loads written down for it. It was a tackdriver and death on southern whitetails which is all I ever shot with it. Also had a 6 x .284 but prefered the 6.5I looked over the 6.5 page Flip refers to a few months ago and found it to be extremely informative plus it brought back many pleasant memories. I think it is worth stating again that the long range effectiveness and relative lack of recoil are the reasons that my neighbor, a Wyoming outfitter, has a 6.5 that has killed over seventy Bighorn sheep. A guy who works for me made the 69th kill two years ago. John ranges the shot, dials in the scope, hands the rifle to the client on a bipod who usually makes one shot kills out to 700 yards or so. Other rounds could do the same but John likes the 6.5 x .284 better than anything else for this purpose.

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from Flip wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

T.W.Davidson:Re your request for info on the 6.5-284, go to 6mmBR.com, click on the 6.5-284 Info Page and you'll find more info on building a rifle & loading for that cartridge than you can use. It's designed for long range BR shooters, but other than bullet choices, it's all applicable to hunters. Good Luck.

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from Flip wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ishawooa:Thanks for the quick response, but please don't spend time looking for the details on those loads. I don't load 130's in anything but my .270 and don't use much of them any longer. I've pretty much standardized on the 140s for the .270, 140s-160s in the .280 & .280AI and 160's in the 7mm Mag. Use H-4831 in all of them as I lean toward the heavier bullets in most of my rifles. Speaking of coyotes, I'm still trying to get out to my buddy's ranch in Birney, MT, but don't know if I'm gonna make it. Too damn busy. He tells me they're covered up with em this year. I couldn't make it out for deer season and swore I'd get out this winter and give the coyotes something to laugh at. Too bad pelt prices are so low - do make nice rugs, tho. Thanks again for the help.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Flip:130 grain bullets in all three cartridges. I will have to look through my old notebook to tell you the exact brands and types, I believe Sierras, Hornady, and Noslers. Some I had purchased and a friend gave me several partial boxes of 130s so I decided to spend a few afternoons playing with them. I'll have to get back to you on the info. Let me point out once again that my little custom 7-08 on a pre-Garcia Sako Forrester action (yep my favorite actions are old Sakos, we all have hangups) will do anything in the field that the bigger ones can accomplish within reasonable ranges. I have never shot an elk with it but the neighbor's wife dropped a nice 6 x 6 at about 200 yards using a 140 Nosler Partition at about 2800. The bullet was well placed and the bull had the earth jerked out from under him. I would not hesitate to attempt a similiar shot at a nice bull with my little 7. The kid wants to go look for coyotes this afternoon so I have got to go...too windy and lots of sunshine but who knows

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from Del in Kansas wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Flip,You need a Chronograph. Without one you are guessing about velocity. The slowest burning powder does not always give you the best velocity from a given rifle. It will give you a bigger muzzleblast however. There are some good serviceable chrono's around that are prettry cheap and they work. Chrony is one that comes to mind. I have an Ohler and it really is more equipment than I needed.

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from Flip wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ishawooa:I realize it was early when you posted your comments about H-4831, but you didn't mention what bullet weights or brand you were using. I assume the .270 load was with 130's, but what were the weights for the .280 and 7mm Mag? H-4831 is also one of my favorite powders and I use it whenever possible, but I'm starting to try IMR-7828 and am thinking about trying RL-25 if I can find some locally. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a chrony. You can't beat H-4831 in a .25-06 with 120 gr. Partitions. It's a helluva Mule Deer & Antelope load. And this may sound a little crazy, but YEARS ago I seem to recall reading a RFGW who said you couldn't stuff enough H-4831 into a case to cause dangerous pressure - it was too slow burning. But then I can't remember what I had for breakfast any more, so it may just be my imagination.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

T.W. DavidsonWhen Mr. Joyce W. Hornady was alive, he was inspired to produce the best possible bullets for all shooters. Hers a little secret I do know about him. When the Hornady .308 diameter 190 grain soft point boat tail #3085 was developed, he recognized that this bullet was superior to the 180 grain. He realized that you can push the 190 as fast as the 180 thus gaining more performance from your rifle. Using the 190 SPBT, the 30-06 can shoot flatter and have more foot pound energy that the 7mm Rem Mag's 175 grain all the way out to 1000 yards. When Mr. Joyce W. Hornady passed away, so did Hornady’s innovation and dedication to the Sportsmen.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I know you guys are rolling your eyes and thinking will this guy ever let up.TW:I agree on Hornady as I gave up on them years ago except for one bullet that performs especially well in my old .22-.250. A Wyoming friend felt the need for a 175 Partition many many years ago as he was working up loads for some cartridges for Imperial of Canada based on the 404 Jeffrey case (sound somewhat familiar?). He wanted this bullet for the 7 mm version thinking it would be good moose medicine. Nosler was delighted to visit and correspond with him which eventually lead to marketing the desired product. I am certain that he was not the sole reason for the development but at least they listened to him and others. Good luck as I wish you the best in obtaining success in your quest.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I use H-4831 as much as I can in various cartridges. Looking at my notes I see that for many years I have been able to get about 3050-3200 fps from a .270 Win with 24 inch barrel (again at least six different rifles and two were 22 inchers) using a compressed load of about 61 grains. A near duplicate load in either of my .280s (again with 24 inch barrels) show about 100-175 fps less for the same bullet, same brand brass, primers, etc. By the same token my 7 mm Rem Mag notes indicate that 71 gr of H-4831 yielded 3250 to 3350 fps. This was all with the original H-4831 as it appears that I never performed a comparision utilizing one of the newer versions of the same propellant for 130s or that bullet weight in my '06. 160s seemed to be the best choice for the 7 mm Rem mag for deer and elk but 140s and 175s were never given much of a chance. So I finally decided that I must prefer the .270 over the others based on this small amount of testing which obviously is flawed in a few ways from a scientific basis. I have read other articles where the .280 was closer to my .270 performance but also others that demonstrated no particularly outstanding improvement in velocity in the .280 AI.Concerning the short and fats and the new Ruger/Hornadys, they are sort of cute but I have no need for any version of either species.I do see quite a few hunters, mostly from back east, packing .300 WSM or .270 WSM and they say they are satisfied with them. My friend Wayne sings praises for his .325 WSM but seems intimidated by my .338 Win mag. Each to their own.

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from T.W. Davidson wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

To Clay Cooper . . .Thanks for your response. It seems to me that Mr. Hornady and his company wish to dictate to American shooters and hunters what he thinks we need, rather than listening to what we tell Mr. Hornady and his company what we need, which makes far more sense, and shows respect for his/its customer base, rather than the disrespect that Mr. Hornady showed you and showed me.I think Hornady's Ruger Compact Magnums (RCM) are a perfect example of a (contemptous to Hornady's customer base) answer to a problem that has never existed and doesn't exist now. If Mr. Hornady and his company would simply load the large flock of cartridges that have long served American shooters/hunters/handloaders well--everything from .22 caliber up through, say, the 30-06, and particularly in cartridges that have always traditionally been loaded to pathetically weak pressure levels such as the 257 Roberts and 7x57 Mauser--to the full safe modern-day performance limits of said cartridges (say, 60,000 psi for use in modern bolt actions only), and using Hornady's proprietary and secret powders and powder mixtures--which should be made available to handloaders, and not just via loaded ammo--than all of us shooters/hunters/handloaders would be, dare I say it, almost perfectly content, whether we use barrel lengths of 20" or 22" or 24" or 26" or whatever length we choose--the point being, we, the consumers, choose, not Hornady--to use.Think about it: The RCM cartridges are only available, if at all, in Ruger rifles. RCM ammunition is only available via expensive Hornaday factory loads. In my view, this is Hornady's attempt to push/shovel what he/it thinks American shooters/hunters/handloaders need, rather than what we all ask for and want, which Mr. Hornady and his company, in their arrogance, choose to ignore. What about those of us who might now want to buy a Ruger? What about those of us who want to handload? What about those of us who think the RCMs are nothing more than a fancy marketing gimmick that ignores what real shooters/hunters/handloaders want?I think I'll ask Nosler or Barnes or Berger to produce, say, some 75-grain V-max type bullets in 257 caliber, just to see what the response will be. And I suspect that one or more of these companies will be happy to do so, and that consumers will happily by them in great quantity. I'm done buying any more Hornady products. I encourage all of you who read this to do the same.Let's buy from companies that care about, and respond appropriately to, what their customers want and need.T.W. Davidson

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

T.W. DavidsonI see that you too Sir have had the experience of dealing with the Prodigal Son, Steve Hornady. I wrote him back in 1990, that Alaska needs a 338 Diam 250 grain Spire Point bullet preferably a Spire point Boat Tail and got the same basic response. At that time they only had a 250 grain round nose. What does a person know if they don’t work there and live there 24/7, 365 days a year for 4 years and had a major role of the most major shooting range and contact with hunters alike and a member of the largest sportsman club in Alaska. I find it sadly to say, Steve Hornady is not all there when it come to the needs of his customer base! I put him into the Goober Smootcher category!

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

P.S.After digging thru Federals newest listing they have indeed brought back the original Whelan, 225gr. TBBC 2600fps.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

WAMtnhunter and others,Just got a reply from Federal on the Whelan and they are bringing it back for 2008 with no explanation of the loading.What really interested me was a new loading (to me) of a .370 Sako. They took a '06 case and necked it to .366. Anyone heard about this?

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from T.W. Davidson wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Greetings, Everyone . . .Have any of you handloaders out there done load development for the 6.5-284? Has anyone handloaded both the 6.5-284 and the 260 Remington and done ballistics comparisons between the two rounds? Does anyone have opinions or experience in loading either of the above-mentioned rounds in a long action or medium-length action so as obtain larger overall cartridge lengths and higher velocities?I ask the above questions because I am giving serious thought to building a 6.5-284 (or something similar to it) on a Mauser 98 action.On another note, I recently wrote a letter to Steve Hornady, president of Hornady. I complimented Mr. Hornady on the quality of his dies, the superb accuracy of a number of his Light Magnum (LM) loads and a number of Hornady bullets in different calibers, the high quality of Hornday brass, etc. I gave polite constructive criticism, however, regarding the velocity performance of the 257 Roberts LM load (a 117-grain SST at 2940 fps) and the 280 LM load (unimpressive), and politely pointed out that any reasonably skilled handloader can safely get a 257 Roberts to shoot a 100-grain spitzer at 3200 fps (or higher), and compared the 257 Roberts LM load to Hornady's 6MM LM load (100-grain bullet at 3250 fps). I pointed out the 6MM is based on the 257 Roberts case, and both cases stem from the 7x57 case, meaning that whatever a 6MM Remington can do, a 257 Roberts, with a slightly larger bore in essentially the same case, should do as well or better than the 6MM when loaded to equal chamber pressures. I also suggested that Hornady's 7x57 LM load (139-grain SST at 2830 fps) could be safely improved to 2900-2950 fps (or higher) with the same 139-grain bullet in a 24" barrel, and pointed out that a number of modern day handloading manuals do just that. I then noted that Hornady's 7mm-08 LM load with the same 139-grain bullet goes out the barrel at 3000 fps in a case with less powder capacity than the 7x57 Mauser, and suggested Hornady's 7x57 LM load should at least equal Hornady's 7mm-08 LM load. I then suggested (politely) that Hornady Co. could safely (and therefore should) improve their LM loadings in the 257 Roberts and 7x57 Mauser cartridges as indicated in my letter.(I also said in my letter to Mr. Hornady that I could see no justifiable reason to put a UFC champion in Hornady's 2008 catalog as a marketing ploy for Hornady's new line or Ruger Compact Magnum (RCM)cartridges, since Hornady presented no evidence at all in its catalog to indicate that the UFC champion was an experienced RCM shooter/handloader/hunter who therefore might have an intelligent opinion about the veracity and capabilities of the new RCM cartridges. I said in my letter that Hornady Co.'s marketing staff could do far better than to produce dumbed down advertising to Hornady's prospective customer base and should not treat its customers as if they are incapable of well-reasoned thought or are dumb.)Mr. Hornady wrote back. His letter was short, dismissive, very close to being rude, and, I thought, very arrogant. He expressed what I perceived to be false surprise that I, an attorney, would ever suggest to any cartridge manufacturer that it should "exceed industry standards." (By this I presume he meant SAMMI standards.) As far as I know--and I would appreciate corrections on this if I am in error, SAMMI standards are not laws, are not rules written in stone, and thus there is no reason why an enlightened ammunition manufacturer who actually cares about the needs and wants of its customer base (which apparently Mr. Hornady and his company does not), would fail to produce safe ammunition that performs to its full capabilities, as opposed to producing ammunition that does not reach full perfomance capabilites because of "industry standards" developed in the 1930's, which, 80 years later, is stupid. I personally see no problem at all with any cartridge manufacturer producing ammunition that performs to the safe limits of its abilities, provided the manufacturer clearly states right there on the ammo packaging, in bright, bold language that no one can miss, exactly what the ammunition will do or won't do, and what firearms can and cannot be used with the ammunition in question. Questions or comments? Mr. Petzal, your thoughts? (Perhaps you could do an article about the importance, or lack thereof, of 1930's "industry standards" being used in 2008.)(By the way, I own, among other rifles, a 257 Roberts, 257 Ackley Improved (AI), 270 Win., 7x57 AI and a couple of 280 AIs. I think the most underappreciated cartridge is the 257 Roberts in a 24" barrel, particularly when loaded with a healthy 110-grain Accubond or 115-grain Berger VLD or 120-grain Partition handload.)T.W. Davidson

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

DP will have some good stories when he returns!

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

WAMnthunter,Haven't received my reply from Federal yet but I have a feeling that if they do release a new Whelan it will be loaded with the new TB Tipped. I don't like that because by the listings I see from Federal the Tipped is rated #2 (med game) the TBBC rated # 3(large) game. Kinda defeats the purpose of havin a Whelan.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Dr. RalphI am sure we all know Dave Petzal has a 'real job' that is he gets to hunt and hunt and hunt some more; all to 'test' those 'not so special' rifles he told us about a few topics ago! That and going to the SHOT show and trying hard not to openly drool over the booth babes! Damn we should all have such tough jobs!SA(Awaiting with bated breath the SHOT show edition of F&S!)

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Take Bubba to the Out Back Restaurant and he would order a peanut butter sandwich!I'm sorry, I couldn't help it!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Reloading is like making your own fine wine and not just one but a variety. For all of you fine wine lovers do know that there is a time and place for a specific special wine that suites one person’s mood and taste

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I found a 90% Golden Model 39a at a local gun store last week and immediately bought it for $300.00. It is another way of keeping my kid from wearing out my old 39d that I purchased new at a Walmart in about '71 or '72. I also am concerned about what Big Green will do with Marlin. Oddly enough the serial number of the Golden does begin with a C which is 1946 production except they didn't make Goldens that early. If I disregard the C and only use the numbers the rifle is 1988 manufacture which seems to more closely match the model and condition. Anyone know more about Marlin Model 39 serial numbers? I got my info from a list of what is apparently a defunct Marlin Collector's web site.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

At 73 getting senile also, as can't spell or type/ It's like a puzzle for you guys trying to read what I want to say, Sorry guys, it can happen to anyone of us. Till next time. be happy, shoot a lot.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

As we all state, each hass his pet caliber. When Rem was making the l68 gr Extended range, that was one heck of a knck out. Why the dropped it will never know.Thank goodness I did keep 4 boxes, saving for I DON:T KNOW WHAT. Now I use teh Scricco in l50 or l80 all depends on game I;m hunting. Im 73 ys old, hunted big game since ws 20 and never use but one reload in my life. That one bullet cost me$l80.00 bucks to get rifle re-chambered. Now I buy factory ammo, if I can;t afford a few boxes of ammo per year, then I best stay st home. As statedby me many times, use 2 Remington 700's one a 25-06 thje other a 30-06. Either does a gret job on game it's intented for. But, when I;m huntng both Mule Deer and Elk, I use l80's rather have more than needed than less than needed. No suprise, we all could use more pratice, or at least I could, get kinda rusty during teh cold winter months. We live in teh country and I do shot whenever i want to, but am a warm blooded guy at 73 and love the warm heat. Never owned a 270, but gonna try one that Marlin has just released if it's the same quality of their 39 and 336. Just hope and pray that Remington don;t screw up with MArlin as they did with EAAand teh other Co's they bought out. ass this new owner is only a invester, doubt they even know what end of the gun a bullet comes out of. So they gonna cut quality to make the $$$$. Remington did 500 Million in sales in 2006, this new groupe insist they dble that to l billion by end of 2009???? so where is the $ coming from if not cheaper parts. I got a 30-06 Custom job ( open sights, 2 leafs on rear, hooded front, solid rib l/4 l/4" from breech to buzzle, dble set triggers at 12 oz made in Germany/Italy and it will make a BDL or CDL look like a Daisy 22 rim fire if you recall how they looked when they hit the streets. They even use cheapo beer cans. So if you guys even thinking of a newe Rem. better buy now. Check ut Wal-mart's line of ADL's @300.00, yep, 300 bucks, see if you think its the same old trusty ADL as of a few years back. When you loose quaity back, you gonna loose your base customes, as many good rifles out there jst as god as Rem. I;ve used a Rem because it fits me, I;m a small guy and the Rem in any caliber is like an extention of my arm when I throw up the gun to fire. At my age of 73,I got enough 700's and Auto's to last my remaining hunting days, but will try this new MArlin 270 if it looks as it should. D you recal the EAA s x s dbe rifle that emington bught out? why have they not put on the market yet? They only wanted t get that gun out of production, as price as near $600.oo for a beautiful walnut firearm, that had a Jack screw for the left bbl to 0 with the right bbl. O how I wish had bought one before Rem took over.Another dumb mistake. I contine to check all gun shops and pawn shops hoping I find one in 30-06. Shoot-um-straight and often as you can. What's a little sub-0 weather to us gun nuts.

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from Dr. John J. Woods wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

And don't forget the 280 before it switched to the 7mm Express Remington was also called for a very short time the 7mm-06 which you can imagine did not last very long. Any rifle so marked was an instant collector's item.

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from Mike K. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey Clay, congrats on the 22 pump, must be an old one, the new ones are so expensive, been cheaper to keep the Ex-wife!! Happy Hunting!!

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from m nelson wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

BUBBA,GUESS WE ALL HAVE OUR OPINIONS. ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE WHAT WE USE EITHER WAY. HOWEVER, I THINK WE SHOULD GET AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE SHOOT. JUST PART OF BEING A RESPONSIBLE HUNTER. HAVE A GOOD ONE!

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from Richard wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Some more of Ignored Facts !!A few years ago, I read an article in either Field and Stream or Outdoor Life about a shooting competion and it listed the top 10 finishers in a shooting competion for high powered rifles.The results were 8 shooters were using riflew with the following calibers:a. 8 using Win 308,b. 1 using Win 30-30, andc. 1 some other cartridge, maybee a .284 Dia. bullet.So, if a caliber could corner 10 % of the market, it would be a financial success.Also, why aren't we all out there buying Win. 308's for our Deer rifles ?

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from RICOCHET! wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

So BubbaYou wuss! Keep it simple stupid? You probably have the same old T-shirt on from last month! Lack of variety in your life makes you stale! No wonder you gravitate towards “REAL MEN RATHER THAN WOMEN”! They don’t want you either! LMOA!!!

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Wondered where that funky taste came from Clay C. Thought maybe you hadn't brushed your teeth!Don't have a butt load of powder? You just posted you maintained 5 different powders and were wishing for H280!? C'mon CC! I shoot four different rifle calibers. I load them all with IMR 4895 except the Hornet, it gets Herco 2400. I load 3 handgun calbers. They ALL get Herco 2400! My front-stuffer still gets DuPont FFFg! That other junk don't stink right!K.I.S.S. dude, K.I.S.S.!!!For those of you that don't know: Keep It Simple, Stupid!!On the .243/6mm. M Nelson, you made two statements that are the real key to these lighter rifles. Especially for deer and antelope. One hundred grain bullets and shortest shot possible!Over-rated? I agree with the 7mm Rem Mag, but still think the .243 Win fits the profile also!Clay, leave the dog at home next time!Bubba

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from Richard wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey Ralph,Are you sure David Petzal has another job other than writing for Field and Stream ?It does not surprise me, I think his real job is a "facilitator" !You know, a new profession that does not take any responsibility but just get the experts to open up and shed some real knnowledge on the subject.By the number of Posts, he really got a lot of input on his fiction writing!Have a G R E A T D A Y !

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from Richard wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Attn: GUN NUTSMaybee we all have a little "Wildcatter" in us.Always looking for something a little better!However, I caution you that something "different" is not necessarily "Better"!I have more guns than I can shoot in a year, but I am always in the market for another good one. I have been thinking of watching for a Win. 270, and even thought of the Win. 243.Then I ask myself, would this new rifle be better than my 30-06 Win. Mod. 70 that I have lugged around North America for 46 years ?I guess if someone loaned me a Rem. 280 or 6 mm and asked my opinion, I would go out and shoot it with him for his satisfaction.Diversity is GOOD ! If everyone wanted the same rifle and caliber, the cost of that gun might skyrocket and the ammo would be un-afforable.Happy hunting and safe shooting.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I hope you all realize that this is not Dave's REAL job... He writes for Field & Stream and he has been burdened with us, probably for little or no extra pay. If it weren't for him what would you be doing now? Playing solitaire and looking at ugly naked women more than likely...

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from Richard wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Dear Mr. Petzel,Your opinion of Rem.s 280 goes against about 60 years of experience. Winchester's 270 and 243 have been around a long time and have established their niche with Hunters.As I recall, Remington has brought out so many new cartridges and then quickly discontinued manufacturing ammunition for these cartidges than Remeington would like to admit to.So if hot rod cartridges gets your vote of approval, I could refer you to my friend who sold his 300 Weatherbee Magnum because it causes bullets to pass right through Whitetail deer with our expanding, and not killing the deer.My Model 70 Winchester Featherweignt in 30-06 has got to be one of the best rifles ever made. It shoots 1 MOA groups with Winchester Factory Ammo at 200 yards. And, the ammo for this popular caliber (like the Win. 270 and 308) is very reasonable. My preference is just to buy more Ammo, and not spend hundreds on a new rifle that will take more costly ammunition.Like Robert Ruark said "Use enough gun" for the game that you are hunting.

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from RICOCHET! wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

D. MannWhat happened to DP? Besides I think we are doing a good job ourselves!

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from D. Mann wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I think it's time for you guys to start lookin for a replacement for petzal. he's outlived his usefulness!!!!

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Mike K.The fella the X married gave me an old 22 pump. I got the better deal!YA YA spell check!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Mike K.The fella the X married gave me an old 22 pump. I got the bitter deal!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

The Ol’Man…..On a Mountain upon highAn Ol’man hunter standsreaches outtouchesthe face of God!

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from Mike K. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Had a Sako Tikka .270 years back, with a Burris 2.5-10 Signature on it, and dropped the 10th biggest buck in the state that year, used handloads IMR4350 with Nosler Partition 150grain, buck was shot at over 200 yards, it dropped and did'nt even kick. Had a Winchester classic few year back, walnut stock, stainless barrel, 7mm mag, was purt near as pretty as I am, only buck I ever shot with it kicked up its heels and ran, and I had to track it, was too much gun. Had to sell both of them due to financial constraints at that time, (read divorce), ex said it was either hunting or her, sure miss that Sako! I'm sure everyone has their own personal preference as to what calibers to use. The .270 has always been my favorite around here for deer hunting and reloading, shooting. But, to each his own. Happy hunting and shooting!!

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from Chuck Atley wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Seems to me that the 280 gets compared to the 270 way more than the 7mm Mag. The reasons I went with the 280 were the availability of heavier factory-loaded bullets than the 270 and the ballistics nearing the 7 Mag in certain loads. Remington manufactured a 165 grain Extended Range load that mirrored 7 Mag ballistics; it was overkill for deer, but worked nicely on elk and bear. 150-gr Federal Classics work wonderfully on deer.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ishawooa, you got me seriously thinking. What bothers me the most is, the future for the Sportsmen? There are those like the Ol’Man that few of us know. In fact, the few of us actually followed the Ol’Mans footsteps learning by listening and following his teachings. Then there are those that have no teachings at all, commonly known as doubting Tomas’s!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

m nelsonIf you think I’m debunking the 243/6mm Sir, you have my most humble apology! The reason I don’t use it is because I wanted to fill the void between 22-250 and 30-06. I have tons of 30-06 match brass to make 25-06 and the areas I used it was a bit windy. I have tons of 308 military match brass that I can make 243. Laying all jokes aside, I’ve taken more deer with my 22-250 than all my rifles combined without a single loss!The 6mm Remington is NO PUNK!

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay:I know the same ole hunter that you spoke of, different name and location, but same guy in spirit. When he was too old to ride horses any more he had his 50 year old son haul a Lazy Boy recliner to the trail head. He would sit there for a day or two wishing his younger friends good luck and offering advice on where the elk might be as we departed on a 20 mile horse trip to camp. He owned a M-70 in '06 which he purchased in the late forties and never could see why I needed a 7 mm or .338. An article was written about him and three of his bulls in OL back in the seventies. Anyway on the stock of the Winchester someone had carved "THE BIG GUN".I agree with you statements concerning the 7 Rem Mag as I have owned and used several since about 1970. Results were adequate but not spectacular with all loads. The court is still out on the custom 7 Ultra and I won't even go into the shot my kid made back in October because you guys would think I was lying anyway. .338 of any kind will satisfy almost anyone insofar as terminal performance. Like I have said before if my 15 year old kid (now 17) can shoot 20 rounds of hot 225 or 250 grain Noslers off the bench into nice little groups so can anyone else with practice (9 1/2 lb McMillan stocked pre-Garcia Sako Finnbear action, Shilen barrel, Leupold 3.5x-10.5x, Decelerator pad, no brake).

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from m nelson wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Noticed that several of you feel the 243/6mm is a poor round for deer and antelope. Probably at best a personal preference but, believe you're way off base in denigrating these calibers. Have hunted deer and antelope in Montana for over 40 years and for most of that time have used either a 243 or 6mm. I believe they are exceptional rounds for antelope and quite acceptable for deer (mule and whitetail). Probably have harvested over 100 antelope and deer with them and have never had a problem. Of course shot placement has to be right. Don't like long shots and avoid them if possible but have taken antelope and deer at over 300 yards with excellent results. I don't reload and always use 100 grain factory loaded ammo. The only thing I've noticed is that the 6mm seems to have a bit more punch than the 243 at longer ranges. Just a personal observation. Don't see alot of difference between the 2 ballistically. Like I said, its just a personal preference and really don't care enough to get excited over it. BTW, bought my first 308 this year. Didn't need it as I don't hunt anything but deer and goats but am really impressed with it and the gun (Rem Model 673). Its my first Remington and must say it was well built. From what you folks are saying about Rem, maybe I was just lucky. I'm small statured and it fits me and handles wonderfully. Wasn't too enamored with the vent rib, but darned if it doesn't seem to cool the barrel a bit faster. Anyway, my 2 cents.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay,I forgot. Tell your beertender the next one's on me!WA Mtnhunter

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

ClayThe "bass fiddle" comment was priceless. Once I commented about the shooting skill, or lack thereof actually, of a particular guy that hunted with us a few years ago with the phrase "He couldn't hit a bull in the butt with a bass fiddle".The guy didn't get it.... He asked, "What do you mean by that?"I replied, "Just visualize it. Here's YOUR sign."Clay, you keep me chuckling most of the time. Even though I have not always agreed with you, I appreciate your wit and wisdom. (Hand salute)Cheers

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Actually Bubba, I don’t have a butt load of powder of different kinds. I may have a butt load to load of one kind of powder that I can use in several rifles. The only powders I do use and know that they give the maximum performance is WIN748, IMR4895, IMR4064, IMR4350 and IMR4831. H870 I can no longer get, so I dump the last quarter pound and let a match to it. Working up loads, I know what will work even before I load it and by the way, try H110 in your 22 Hornet you’ll be glad you did!About the 7mm Rem Mag? It is the most overrated cartridge ever to hit the shelf! A heavy bullet that is too narrow to leave a large wound channel thus lacking in hydrostatic shock, odds are it will tumble upon impact, kicks like a mule, no real advantage over a 30-06 with heavy loads and it[‘s appeals mainly to the feeble minded fad got to have it that believes anything. I’ve personally witnessed more dear lost with the 7mm than a 30-30! The hunters that like the 7mm and 300 mags in Alaska, once they taste their firsts kill with a 338 never go back! Besides, I sold the 300 Win Mag and replaced it with a 25-06 and never regretted it! 7mm Rem Mag does a fantastic job up to 162 grain bullets!By the way Bubba, you’re dreaming again. That was your mangy old Poodle giving you that kiss!

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from KJ wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Most underrated? I'll vote for the plain jane .30-30. It's too old, too slow, too light, doesn't shoot far enough or flat enough, blah blah blah. (On the other side of the coin - most overrated cartridge - I'd vote for the 7mm Rem. mag. It's little more than a .280 that kicks.)

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Seems like Ole EddieJ stirred the pot a bit! Love it!Love my '06 too, much like Ishawooa's friend's rifle; mine is a late iteration Winchester M 70 with synthetic stock and Deerfield 3x9 scope bought used for less than it costs to fill the gas tank on your big ole pick'm'up truck. I intend to swap the scope out for a better quality 4x but otherwise it is as it came, if I do my part the first three of most any factory loads touch out to 100 yards, Remington CoreLok 150 gr seem to center closest to my point of aim. Yes I have a couple other rifles but that one comes with me most often; I am confident it will get the job done!Stir on!SA

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from archer wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

"It's like what kind of taste you have for Woman Sir!"....Well give me a powder with big boobs.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

By the way sargI use Herco 2400 for my .22 Hornet and handguns and IMR 4895 for all other metallic cartridges!One powder, NO MISTAKES!Bubba

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Naw Clay C. I was waiting for you to give me my morning kiss. You know how I am before I get my coffee and kiss.Yep, around 2900 fps is a real good velocity for the .270. Apparently for lots of other cartridges too!sargAs far as different powders. I load for several different firearms and calibers. One of my requisites is finding a "powder" that fits quite well with all calibers. That way, I don't have to worry about which powder to shoot in which caliber and which firearm. THAT'S one of the pleasures of handloading! I have seen rifles that would shoot one powder very well and the next okay but not so well. Just like raising or lowering powder charges by .25 grain until you find what the gun likes!It's personal preference. I bet Clay C. has a butt load of powder and when he's developing a load, he leaves the bench with fifty rounds and ten different loads with almost as many different powders, primers, etc., etc.......I LOVE IT!!!!Bubba

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

by the way Sir Ed, I've seen cleaner kills on Caribou and Moose with a 30-06 than any other rifle

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ed JYour dead wrong Sir, I would ask three main questions. 1 what is the largest game you plan to hunt, 2 what part of the country and 3 how recoil sensitive are you? Then I would go from there. A 25-06 and a 338 Win Mag can cover it all.But for myself if I would must have only one, a 30-06 will do!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

IshawooaYour remind me of an old story of a silver haired hunter caring a weathered old model 721 30-06, high above the timberline. A true master hunter he is, time has gone and so is he but his spirit lives there high on the mountain top walking those ridges

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Since I am obviously on the '06 bandwagon (although I rarely use it due to the boredom it yields) I would like to finalize with the following. A friend here in Wyoming has hunted all over North America. He has a room full of trophies ranging from bobcats to two Kodiaks including several near 400 point bull elk, numerous high scoring whitetails, several typical and non-typical mulies, a few lopes, three of the sheep since he has never drawn a desert tag, black bear, moose, mountain goat, well you get the picture. Yep he has one rifle and it is an '06 and nope he does not reload. All the money I spent on rifles, components, and reloading equipment he put toward hunting trips. What kind of .30-'06 does he have? It appears to be a seventies or eighties vintage S & W marked Howa with an equally as elderly or even older Redfield Widefield 2x-7x. He picked the rig up in a pawn shop back in the eighties. I have a rifle that costed about as much as his old pickup is worth. However it will never kill all the animals that Bill has shot with what I consider an old piece of shxt. I most likely can supply a photo of the man, his '06, his trophies, and a notorized statement as to the authenticity of all. Thus if you only have an '06 it can be done, maybe better by other cartridges in some situations, but the job can be done. He swears that he has never shot a magnum anything and can't spell Weatherby. This is really difficult for a magnum lover like myself to swallow but I know it is absolutely true. GULP

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Rocky Mtn HunterWhat I do know about hunting dangerous game, especially in Alaska with a handgun. You must remove the front sight Sir. When that baarswipes it out of your hand and shoves it up your but, that big bladed front sight you can use for a plow to cultivate crops is hell on the hemorrhoids! :)

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from Ed J wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

ClayNo, I use a Trumpet.Like the rest of the windbags that hangout here I have several rifles , shotguns ,pistols and bows. When you have a 25-06 and a 338 What do use need the 30-06 for.BTW if a newbie ask what to use for hunting deer etc. the first word that will probably come out of my mouth will be 30-06.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Sargguns digest certain powder more readily than others? Due to manufacturers tolerances, type of action to be used, the specifications of the loads and other variances such as temperature by the consumer. Take IMR4831 I don’t recommend it at all for semi auto rifle period, but I do recommend IMR4895, IMR4064 and WIN748 that works excellent!And the event of a Law Suit!

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

If a 30-06 put in the correct Vitals won;t bring your animal down, then you need to take shooting lessons with a Red Ryder BB gun. There is no game in N America that a 06 will not put down other than maybe a Brownie or charged up Grizz with cubs. If hunting those Bears I want a back up guide who can handle a Cannon, plus I will carry my sawed offf 12 dble as a side arm and stick it in his mouth and pray both trigges go off. All these stories we read about Aricia and a shotgun, that shotgun is not for birds, its for that dangerous Buffalo you missed. Legal or not, my life don;t know the regs on bbl lengths, just what the damage it can do. If was leaving fo Africia in AM would take my Custonm 06, my Fox 12 ga, with 28" bbl and my 44 -40 side arm, then after I shoot at the bench for 0, I want the guide to do the same,. With the 06, would take many different wts, from l25 to 220. Any one got a free pass, as that trip would cost a bundle. So will just hunt the Rockies on friends property and then here at home for 5 weeks, plus a week in January for Turkeys, yes Turkeys in Jan, either sex.???? Now you can freeze you tail off as was -2 deg Tuesday, Ice this Am and again for remainder of week they say. But who-ever said hunting was a hot weather vacation. Any you guys hunted ELK/Mulies in NM? and do you by chance know the Game Depts e-mail, I;d love to contact them. Time to put this old grey head on a pillow, shoot-um-straight and often, N.C.'s only true Gunslinger

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ed are you using a base fiddle on deer?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

BubbaDid you take a cranky old fart pill today?

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

used by the military that is

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

BubbaYou like your fps range around 2900 fps, have you noticed that practically all the ammunitions loaded from 30 cal to howitzers are in the same fps range?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

sargIt's like what kind of taste you have for Women Sir!

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Dear Ed J.I tend to have a quick temper towards idiots so now that I have cooled down, Sir, YOU ARE AN IDIOT.Learn how to shoot an .06 and thats all you need.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ok guys, answer me a question.... With powder s being as varied as the rifles or people on this blog why do certain people like certain powders when other powder does the same job with the same values but some ar 4or5 grs lower in volumnn. I've seen a lot of different powders listed here and bullets as numerous as the shooters.. Is it what we get started with or do we just like the name or smell??? anyone with the answer? do some guns digest certain powder more readily than others...

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

RICHOCHETPressure don't mean squat 'til them punched out primers look like toadstools!!I don't care about pressure, I don't load hot enough for pressure to be a problem, that is unless I've stuck some sorta goodie down the bore that I'm not aware of. At that point, even my factory-equivalent loads are gonna blow!Gimme a good .270 Win with 130 gr Sierra BTSP with 46.5 grs of IMR 4895. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 2850 to 2900 fps. Ain't failed me yet!Bubba

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from RICHOCHET! wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

MattDon’t compare a 130 grain 270 vs. 308 cal. Smaller the bore, the less volume for gas expansion thus the higher the pressure.HA! HA! Clay I beat you to it!

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from RICHOCHET! wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ed JWhere in the hills, did you come up with that blundering statement? There are those that cannot hit the ground with both feet standing up! If you cannot knock it down with a 30-06, yet alone a 30-30,,,, GO HOME AND STAY THERE! It’s amazing how folks like this can even have kids, go figure!By the way, se ya on the range some day!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Those loads are right out of Hornady Third Edition reloading book. Nothing wrong with compressed loads, as long it doesn’t do any damage and besides, you don’t have to worry about double charge! Lapping a bolt, never done it, I just wear it in!

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

That post was for "7x51"

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from larry wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

did not read all of blog comments, thought I would point out that Cactus Jack talked Carmichal into building that 280./don't know why you have a problem with ol' Jack other than a touch cranky/I like him better than Petzal!

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Bubba:Folks kill elk in Wyoming every day of the season with a .270, '06, etc. and factory loads. If you told them they needed a .300 or .338 and Scirrocos they would think you were crazy and show you about twenty pictures of dead bulls from the last twenty seasons.In fact I am probably one of the oddballs that sees any reason to own more than one or two rifles. I know a local cowhand who has an inherited .257 Roberts on a Mauser action who has killed more elk than anyone I know. He buys his ammo at Walmart, whatever brand and bullet is the cheapest. He just won't listen to me when I tell him he is doing it all the wrong way...

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Guys, the best all around cartridge would have to be the 30-06, next the .308 Win. now the worst? are there really any worst. we use the wrong cartridge on the wrong game with bad results and call it the worst when really it's our lack of knowledge or skill to blame.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Met a guy in Pagosa Spgs, Colo that shot his elk with a .270 Win with 130 gr Rem Core-Lokt. Factory ammo only. He didn't like handloading!Bubba

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

If you only gonna use only one firearm, then buy a 30-06.CAn buy Ammo from 55 grs to220. Surely with thisline-up o ullets you can find one that serves your purpose. I go to the Rocky Mtns mostyears and always carry l80 gr bullets. It's a tad much on some game, but I;ve never felt it was overgunned even in the 220 hunting Elk in thick timber. For pen plains, the l50 grScricco will bring down anything you will hunt out to 500 yds, providing you can see the target and place teh bulet in right place. I;ve kille many Mulies at 350 yds with the l80, and the bullet went all way thru the animal. Made for good tracking if necessary, but as a rule dropped in its tracts. I never worry about the gun or caliber I will carry, just how much $$ and what it will cost to go for 2-3 weeks.If could afford it, would hunt the entire season in MT of 5 weeks or untill I fill all my tags,which requires a good deep snow up high to run the Elk/Mulies down to the flats.My concern is not the caliber/type bullet, but my ability to place in the Vitals and that takes lots of pratice and more patice.AS a rule, about 2 months prior to season opening out there I will shoot 6 ot 9 rounds per day till I go. You goa know where that bullet is gonna strike the animal .AS a rule, I can tell as soon as i pull the trigger if was a good strike or not.They can take a H&H but if you don;t hit the Vitals its a wounded animal you may or may not find. Got a BUDDY WHO ONLY HAS ONE GUN, ITS A MARLIN 22 MAG ( with 50 mm Scope) AND HE FILLS his locker each week, He shoots the animal between the eye an ear and it falls immediately. He only takes a shot makeable, not a 200 yd may-be shot.Sometimes I think he;s l/2 Monkey and l/2 injun. Ok, time to hit the bed.Take care, shoot-um-straight and often.

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from Ed J wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Most overrated cartridge?30-06 hands down. In the hands of incompetent hunters it has wounded more animals than any other cartridge.Don't own one, don't know what I would use it for except to fill that vacant slot in my gun cabinet.

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from Kevin wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

The last cartridge guide mentioned all of my chosen calibers but one. Thanks for mentioning my beloved 220 swift. I wonder why the 300 win mag didn't make at least an honorable mention? With 31 ft. pounds of recoil you can start at 30/06 velocity and load up to darn near that 300 weatherby. I know it's not popular to shoot light (150 grn) bullets fast (3400 on the chrony) but I've never had trouble on numerous mule deer kills. Just controlled expansion and little ruined meat. That load has dropped muleys dead at 525 yards holding only about 12 in. high in the scope.You're right though. Caliber is much less important that a well placed shot.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Sarg, What are you talking about?I have no idea why you would even address something like that to me out of the blue.You must be meaning this for some other blogger.A .270 is the last rifle I would buy off the rack, anyway.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

7x61, what are you shooting 1898 Mauser in 7x61 Sharpe&Hart?

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey bubba, don't talk about my .204 Ruger, Not yet any way let me shoot it a couple of times.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey mark 1,, do you realize why you load the 270 with 160 gr bullets.... You are not loading 160 gr. because of deer, but because of elk.. IF you knew for sure no elk around would you still load a heavy bullet in the 270... Probably not. Here there will be no elk to shoot. If there were it would be illegal with out the appropiate tag.. I still believe at the 75-100 yds range I would encounter, the 150 would be ok for elk.(with proper placement of course). am I right?

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

We're going to eat up another subject before Dave even gets it posted.Dr. Ralph,Think you nailed it. I do believe the .243 Win is the most useless, successful cartridge ever marketed, unless it's maybe the .204 Ruger or the .17 HMR.The .270 Win might not be the "best" there is, but it d**m sure ain't in "LAST" place!Bubba

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Chev Jim I sure agree on the .270 as most overrated... in my experience a 30-06 will do anything a .270 can do better and kicks just about the same. The .243 is another one that I have trouble with. For all its popularity it is a marginal white tail round at best and is out performed by nearly every varmint offering on that size game. Just exactly what is it good for?

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay, you ever lap a bolt in one of your bolt guns?

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Dave must be on Vacation or read all these post trying to come up with something to write about....How about it DAVE.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Matt, Clay must be using a compressed load of 748 or he,s using his own chrony.. The manuals are usually a little lienient with their load tables... If Clay say 3300 fps , he means 3300 fps... My Hornay Hand book Vol.II shows3200 with55.3 gr. 748. I've never loaded 748 but like some one just mentioned IMR 4064, I,ve load a lot of it in the.308.. I also use IMR 3031 in my .308. I've got a new can of BLC-2 to use with the .204 and it also can be loaded in the .308 but with 50.5gr. (max) @ 3100fps..

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Perhaps we could have a blog discussion on the "most overrated" cartridge, now that we've kicked around the "most underrated" one. It should be a cartridge that has been hyped, but doesn't really live up to its billing. I'd personally be tempted to nominate one of the WSMs--or perhaps one of the big .30s. I think the .264 Winchester Magnum held the title for a while--and that was what did it in as a commercially successful cartridge. The winner of this category might already be teetering on the brink of extinction--or it might have good sales records but considered a disappointment by the "elite." I'm kind of leaning toward rounds like the .30-378 Weatherby, .300 RUM, and .30 Warbird--because you really need an accurate rifle and a skilled shooter to take advantage of the increase in potential range. Others might want to nail the .45-70 or even the .30-30--these are old cartridges with younger siblings that eclipse their performance, i.e., .450 Marlin Express and .307 Marlin (hope I got that designation right). Heck, some folks might even name the .270 Winchester--I'm not sure that it does anything the .30/06 cannot do as well or better, and it's limited by the bullet weights available. In my own experience, it hasn't been that swift of a deer killer. What about it, Dave? Are you ready to poke another stick into the hornet's nest?

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from Matt wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Even Hornady lists 2900 fps max in .30-06.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey sarg..I am willing to take that chance!;o)Yooper J-Our oldest lives in Kalamazoo, and younger one is in his 3rd year of college, and no grand kids yet.Just need a little spot for my log cabin, and I'll blend right in.

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Donno how Clay does it with a 30-cal 130-slug @3300 and 748, either. Speer lists a max of 2871 with 55gr of 748.

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from Matt wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay,What .30 cal 130 gr bullet with powder type/wt are you using to achieve 3300 fps, exceeding the .270, with the same case and bullet weightat 3100 fps?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

And speaking of horses, June 1990 driving back from Alaska to Phoenix Arizona with a horse trailer and two show horses was an interesting and fun trip. Canadian Customs wasn’t too bad but the US Customs are not your friends and they let you know it! Steam Boat Mountain my GMC ¾ ton 6.2 diesel handled it excellently despite the rumors I’ve been told.

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from 007 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

If I didn't already have a good 7mm Remington Mag., I'd have a .280, but with a little time at the loading bench there's not too much difference in the two when loaded appropriately for whitetails. Stick a 160 gr. Speer Mag-Tip in there and go hunting. I also agree with the .308 crew as I have an elderly Remington 788 in .308 that simply thrives on IMR 4064 and 150 gr. Hdy. Interlocks. As to the .243/.244/6mm's, and I know this will get me in trouble, I have never cared for anything that shoots less than a 120 gr. bullet for deer, too light and too fast. As to the .35 Remington, put it in a 14" T/C Contender with a 200 gr. bullet and H322 and go look for a whitetail. Good hunting, all!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

SargPulled the trigger to soon, I did verify the charges vs velocity!The loads are for the 308 Win 130 grain Hornady Spire Point bullet #3020

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

SargThe loads for the 308 Hornady Spire Point bullet #3020 that I love to shoot and have the best success from jack rabbits to mule deer. Loaded Cartridge OAL is 2.690”, Federal 210 Primers, Winchester 748 45.5gr/2700fps, 47.6gr/2800fps, 49.7gr/2900fps, 51.7gr/3000fps, MAX 53.8gr/3100fps. This is straight out of my Hornady reloading manual Third Edition. For Hornady 150 grain #3031 OAL 2.750” Win 748 41.8gr/2400fps, 43.4gr/2500fps, 45.1gr/2600fps, 46.7gr/2700fps, Max 48.4gr/2800fps.By the way, in a 30-06 with Win 748 you can drive a 130 gr at 58.6gr/3300fps and 150 gr 56.1gr/3100fps.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey Clay, good idea, having a shovel on your Four wheeler sounds like a great piece of equipment for me to get on mine.. I do have a hatchet with me and A piece of good rope about 6ft. with and eyelet plated in each end to rap around a tree for the winch cable. Won't damage the tree or the cable thatway. A small snatch block is handy to double the pull on the winch.. Don't take any room and is not heavy.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ralph the Rifleman,, If your wife would move today on up north, She may not let you come up tomorrow....

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

RtRHey, would love to have you up here! We can make room for a couple more. Not too many, just 2more! Maybe some kids too.Ishawooa:I guess you and I gotta lead this group. Someone's got to bite the bullet, jump on Al Gore's bandwagon, hey global warming is here! You'd have to be blind to deny that or have a broken thermometer. Anyway, last summer, some of those groups were asking for money to fight that "problem". Wouldn't you feel bad now, had you contributed?YooperJack

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Well boys we have about beat this topic to death plus a few others. Interesting reading nevertheless.7x51 what is your opinion on using .308 brass made for small primers versus conventional brass for large primers? A few locals claim a bit more accuracy from the oddity.Brett and the boys didn't look so great against Eli (Archie was in the same class as me at Ole Miss). Like someone on the net said Tryce (as in 3rd time) is a charm. Being an old Packer backer and an old '06 fan makes this all somewhat entertaining. Anyone remember the article Carmichael wrote a few years ago regarding the inherent lack of accuracy available from the .277? I didn't agree with him even if he is one of my favorites because I have always had very good results from at least six brands of .270 rifles that I have owned or which presently reside in one of my gunsafes. My notes show the .270 loads to be as accurate as my .280's or 7 mm mags.Oh and its minus 19 with no wind in Wyoming today, nice time to try the .17 Rem on a few yodel dogs.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Yohan,DEP said it himself:"But to truly take advantage of the .280, you have to handload."I can't abide that The Superior Round of Our Time has to be handloaded to reach that potential. To stay on the same playing field; the .270 Win has better than twice the selection in factory ammo, including plenty of loads with premium bullets. Of course the .30-06 has more factory loads, for more application, than any two other chamberings combined!SA

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from Yohan wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Again to Ralph ,...You mentioned where you hunt is very thickwhat i did once by a river where it was s so thick civilized man could barley make it throug is to cut a trail. actually cut two about 1/3 mile. each.It was a one hell of s job ,.. but with hatchet axe machete and small chaim saw ,.. made paths in that .. leding to feeding areas,.. when the time came i couldnt hunt so told a good friend( who needed meat ) go sit in my stand ,.. he shot two deer one day and two deer the next and he saw from what he said a whoooole bunch more ,.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey YooperJ.If the wife would move today; I would be living North of the Big Mac bridge tomorrow!I used a few different methods for luring in ND cy-oats and game calls seemed to work the best. I also used the salted red colored water trick on the snow that attracted the ravens overhead which called in the dogs like a neon lunch sign.

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from Yohan wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ralph ,.. jeeze ,. lot of bloging goin on here ,..Yup,.. well cant disagree ,.. was never one to cry over spilled milk ,. Favre just couldnt keep the milk in th cup,..I personally think Favre cant handle the cold anymore ,. or maybe ever,..They won a big game in the snow but when it gets ugly(like in chicago) it seems he just cant get it done,.Not like he guys is still trying to pay off the mortgage either .All the respct in the world for his accomplshments,.. but it is what it is.They are young team who went far see what next year brings.Superbowl however should be good.Got talked into a situation by a freined who was was doing his best immitation of a drunk with as big mouth ,.Actually won $10 on the game ,.. predicted a short spread,. (close game)Also yes ,.. 280 ,.. a superior round ,..in my humbleopinion(THE SUPERIOR ROUND OF OUR TIME )Interesting you should come to a simlar comclusion.Cant at present think of any smart a$$ed thing to say so ,.. have a nice day Ralph,..

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from Ed J wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

RtRIts 1 deg. with a 5mph wind. Wind chill -12 that gives you a whole 30 min. before frotbite gets you.sargI only have one load for the 204 and that is for someone else's gun 34gr vmax 27 grs 748

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay, I see what you say about the 748, but the only thing according to my Hornady book is it take a little powder for the same velosity(2700fps ) the the IMR 3031. My manual only show 168gr BTHP . Not good for hunting. But I'll give it a try... I know you've been there..Dr. Ralph. I figured you and I were hunting the same type ground. Some fields I may get a 150 yd shot off but mostly 75 yds max. Any of you guy using the .204, Need a little input , loading 34gr v-max and some 36 gr. hp.. any info or input of any kind, send it down range. I need it . Garyps I'm using BLC-2

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

RtRI'm the kind of guy that would complain if you hung me with a new rope. Remember how NCOs always said "if the troops aren't complaining, they're not happy"Hell, I was the happiest guy in the Navy!Actually, there's a lot of good reasons to live here. Wind chill in the winter is one of the best reasons. The trees do block the wind a lot!I think though, the best way to shoot coyotes is to bait (road kill) out on a frozen lake. Then you post. The coyotes follow to the bait, upwind. I don't think you'd get much wind protection in that location.YooperJack

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey YooperJack-I will take a bone chilling weather stay in the UP anytime. Try a winter stay in North Dakota you will have a better idea of "wind chill factor" for sure!

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from Del in Kansas wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Michael,Some of the other guys probably have more knowledge on this than I but here's my opinion. Over the years I've shot critters from deer to bear and caribou with Partitions from 6mmX284 Win up to 350 Rem mag. The lightest partition for a given caliber will expand and penetrate well. So why not have the higher velocity which gives you greater range. I shot a buck with an 85 gr 6mm Part. bullet in the chest a few years back. Muzzle Velocity was chronograghed at 3500 fps. The buck dropped instantly. Autopsy showed most of heart and lungs gone. Bullet penetrated to the back end. It was the only Partition I've ever fired that did not exit the animal. I suspect the heavier bullets are made with thicker jackets for deeper penetration and slower expansion. Which you would only need on a Moose, large Brown bear or simular game.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Strangly ClayI worked up one load for my .270.I use the Sierra 90 gr FBHP and 50 gr. of IMR 3031 for an advertised velocity of 3500 fps.I use this load if I decide to varmint hunt as the POI at 100 yards, without touching the scope is just a hair over 2 inches. I must only hold a hair low and it's very effective on varmints out to 200 yards or so. Beyond that, I have problems holding steady enough to hit a target that small reliably/consistantly.Bubba

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

BubbaSometimes too much info is over kill and I know I'm guilty of that. By the way, the average shot is 75 to 150 yards and that’s why I'm a staunch supporter of the 30-06 on Moose. One more grain of powder in my 22-250 causes web crack on the 3-4 shot or hold the extra grain for 6-8 loads.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay Cooper:I took your advice and am shopping for a 25-06. Like 280's also, but I don't think there's any in my range. I think Dave Petzal gets custom guns.Anyway, I wish I had it now. I think there are 7 or 8 sportsmans clubs holding "Predator Challenge" hunts in Jan. & Feb., thoughout Michigan's Upper Peninsula. There are nice prizes for the most coyotes by a two-person team. It looks like a lot of fun! Plus its a chance for you to hunt with your centerfire rifle for a while longer. Unfortunately, I didn't buy the rifle yet, so I'll have to wait until next winter.YooperJackP.S. Actually, we're in a helluva cold snap right now. I think the last thin I want to do is be posted somewhere, waiting for game.

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from Michael wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hi again and thanks guys for the 6.5 mm bullet info earlier.I am intrigued by Bubba's story about the partition at short range. I shot a larger buck this year. I used 165 grain (.30-06)partitions for this season because my wife and I also hunted bears, and I wanted some sure penetration and bone breaking ability in case of a close situation with a wounded bear, but didn't go too heavy so that I would retain velocity for the deer; splitting hairs I know, but that was my thinking.Anyhow on the deer it went through the lungs right behind the leg, just encountering rib and lung tissue. It certainly expanded some before exiting, but not hugely, judging by the exit hole. What it did was dropped the deer where it stood, not to get up. There was some uncoordinated leg kicking that I attributed to nerves. There was probably much less than a pound of meat lost.Which end of the spectrum, namely my drop or Bubba's deer walking away, would be more common with this bullet on this type of shot from cartridges of this power level?Michael<><

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

CCI load my .270 to approx. 2900 fps. Sighted in to shoot 1 1/2 inches high at 100 yards, I'm right back in the bull between 225/250 yards. Anything out to 300 yards, put the + where you want the bullet.The load is very comfortable to shoot, no heavy recoil. The manual suggests loads of 1.5 grs more powder and advertised velocities of 3100 fps.I don't hunt any place I have to shoot beyond 250 yards or so.Why would I want to make a load "sizzle"? So the bullet can arrive in .20 of a second instead of .21 of a second!?You have a lot of intelligence and information Clay, but sometimes you have a tendency to go a little overboard!Bubba

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

SargOne of the best powders I’ve found for both 308 and 30-06 is Winchester 748. More in likely if you’re using a bolt gun, you can cram 54 grains behind that 130 for a sizzling 3100fps plus! I found that you can really drive and get ½ MOA with 130, 150 and 165/8grain with this powder! I used it in both my M1G and M1A gas gun for competition.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

7x51The reason the 308 is taken more matches is because, more shooters went to a shorter action and gave it a 1:10 twist barrel for the 168 and 180’s. If you trick both rifles in 308 and the 30-06 it would be very interesting more in likely it would be a tossup. Palma match shooters on the 1000 yard line shoot 308 bolt guns shooting 155 grain bullets with a 1:11 twist barrel. It’s very interesting to watch these teams. The team captain would dope the wind, light and mirage etc tell one shooter the corrections, that shooter will fire and if it’s good, the information is given instantly to the rest of the team to fire.

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

the voice is in you house

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Oh, Oh. I fear there’s a whacked out troll on this blog now, fellow bloggers. Last “Mark-1* entry isn’t mine. This is a first.Don’t know who it is, but there’s a very troubled person haunting this blog, folks.Mark-1, the real one

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

To Jamie,Buy the '06. No comparison. Light short action? What 4 oz.? The 06 is faster extremely accurate and strong. It literally is twice the man a 308 is."Load 56gr. IMR 4350, WLR primer, Win. case, 180gr. Partition bullet and you may safely acheive 2800fps or very close." This from Craig Boddington.Del in Kansas,Your killin me (personal) but I looked at conservation regs. and about 20% is antler restricted the rest is wide open.WAMtnhunter,Thanks I'm waiting my reply from Fed. but I believe you. I was always under the impression Rem 700 35whs. came with 24" barrels. 2600fps is quite impressive from 22"

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Sarg, I mostly hunt in Hickman County which is extremely hilly and overgrown with not much agriculture at all. If you find a shot at over 100 yards you are sitting on a powerline, and the deer hang up and cross those with extreme caution. The sad part is when you see any deer in the woods at 100 yards there are 10,000 branches twigs and leaves in the way. I have learned the hard way that there is no such thing as a brush buster. Best to set up in an area where the hardwoods and pines meet along a rub line. They will hold up in the pines looking around to make sure the coast is clear... KA-BOOM! Hope you're 50 yards away or a twig will send your projectile a half mile off course.

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from 7x51 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

How do i figure the .308 to be more acurate than the .30-06?...i competitivly shoot, see whats being used, compare targets, look at record books. The 06 hasnt been used seriously for competition since the mid 50s. Notice how the .308 broke every record held by the 06 in the books? The .308 is more acurate...deal with it...its fact...i didnt make it so. I dont know if its because of a more modern case design, a shorter powder colum, uniform ignition, or a simple matter of balance, but i can assure you, the .308s record speeks for its self.My chronographing results show the same speed up really until the 165s. As for the 180s, your talking less than 100fps. If you think that matters on game, i dont think youve shot much game.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

sargI am a .270 man, not because of Jack O'Connor, but because that was the first rifle "I" bought. I've enjoyed it and like it. It's taken everything I've ever pointed it at.As a younger man, hunting Colorado, I decided heavier was better and loaded up a batch of .270 Win with the 160 gr Nosler Partition bullets. More because of the chance of running into elk than anything else. Besides, I was very young and very, very intelligent!!! (LOL!!!!) I did shoot a mulie at about 90 yds and the bullet performed nicely. Back home, I couldn't find my 130's so grabbed a handful of the Nosler 160's for an afternoon hunt. Since I knew I wouldn't be shooting over about 60 yards, bullet wt wasn't a big deal. A small buck entered, stage left, pausing mid-stage to ponder direction and speed. Too late, 160gr Nosler poked a hole neatly behind right shoulder, exiting stage rear (left), leaving deer to just, well, EXIT!!That hard-nosed Nosler brick bat had punched a .277 hole in one side and the exit was probably a .280. Very little, if any, expansion at a range of about 40 yards. Since that little episode, I have loaded 130 gr Sierra BTSP.It has yet to fail me when I did my part. (placement)I like guns, all different calibers, especially old ones. (.257 Rbts, 7X57 Mauser, .300 H&H) If I felt any of them would do a better job, I'd swap in a heartbeat. I'll probably have the wife drop my old .270 Win Lee Loader and a mallet in my casket so I can do a little reloading in my spare time!BubbaP.S. What I'm saying sarg, is a 130 gr bullet, regardless of diameter, is sufficient!

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay, I believe the way you do on the heavy bullet, I usally don't use anything heavier than 150 for whitetails.. Now I've never hunted bear but maybe use a .35 rem. and Marlin levergun because it quick.. A lot of deer are killed here at home with the .243, don't believe I would go any smaller. most important is placement in my book...I am going to try the 130 gr. you told me about.. I needto do that and shoot a little.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ladies and Gentlemen, I’m coming out with a new song, a sequel to rhinestone Cowboy called. I’m a Cosmic Cowboy, YYYEEEEHHAAAA!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Sarg, one of the biggest mistakes a hunter makes is using a bullet that is too heavy. A 7mm Rem Mag with 150 grain partition works fantastic on Elk! 175 is just to much bullet for that caliber!

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Dr.Ralph, Do you mostly hunt hilly country or are you up in the plateau in central Tenn?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Make that immature malcontents.Hey WA Mtnhunter, I wish that my PC would make the "t" in Clinton upside down!Want to have a little fun, ask a person if MLK was a Republican or Democrat. Wait for their answer, some will say independent. You reply, MLK was not either of them, he belonged to Gods Party and watch them do a melt down!

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

7x51, According to my manuals, I can not equal the 30-06 with my .308 at anything above the 150 gr. bullets, The 180 gr 30-06 can hit at2600 or 2700 max loads, my .308 which i love dearly with 180 gr can only hit 2500 or 2600 with a max load, not exactly equal. I'll defend my "ole" .308 . I just like it.. could be because I,ve got one. I wouldn't mind having a 30-06 but if I did I would load it much the same as the .308. Out west in the flatter, longer range hunts, would use a little hotter load. Not really necessary here in the hills. You have a lot longer range in mountains than you do in hill country.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

ChadI think you fired too soon, too! LOLMy New Year's resolution is to try not to post negative words on the blog. My only exception is Hillary Clinton (or Bill).

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

If the word malcontents means sold out to conformity, I would agree with that. That’s the problem with today’s world and I’m not the conformant type!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

A friend Bob shot a crow with a 25-06 behind a restaurant in there garden. The crow was facing away when he shot. He picked up the crow and one of the customers was sitting at a window table eating chilly when Bob held up the back of the crow then turned it around showing the blown out side. The customer lost his cookies!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey Bubba, 22 LR works great on dear too!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Yeah Yohan, what about that game? I told you Eli was going to do the back to back Manning thing! Death to the Patriots... Belicheat is the coach of the year? I guess the lesson here is get fined a half million and lose your draft pick but a Super Bowl ring is worth it. The Krafts are laughing at the slap on the wrist, and the NFL is sweeping it all under the rug.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

The most "under-rated" cartridge in the U.S. has got to be the .22LR! Nobody thinks much of it and it has probably taken a wider "range" of game than any other cartridge out there! And will probably still be with us when everthing else is being melted down!Bubba

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I almost forgot... he had a CZ heavy barrel .22 bolt and he says it puts them in the same hole at 100 yards? Forgot to ask him with what ammo...

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

malcontentsA chronically dissatisfied person.One who rebels against the established system: "immature malcontents who have long since sold out to conformity" (John M. Wilson).

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I have a new found perspective on the .280. I spent the day with another gun nut although he does not hunt... at least not creatures who walk on four legs. He was a member of the Methamphetamine Task Force. He punches a lot of paper and when I say a lot I mean it because he blows me away and I shoot 10,000 rounds a year and that's a conservative estimate.His favorite rifle was brought out from some unknown safe and low and behold it was a Sig bolt action in .280... when I saw the Zeiss scope I almost cried. Zeiss too is his favorite. I asked "why the .280? I've heard it's underpowered...". His reply was "it's the ballistic co-efficient of that 7mm bullet... it's the best there is with the possible exception of the .338, and I hand load my .280's". I've searched the web and can't find a bolt action made by Sig but this gun was sweet... floated factory barrel and the trigger was too damn good. As it came from the factory he said, no work done.Oh by the way here's another picture of a crow I shot today at 72 yards with the RWS... 25 my ass click my name.

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from Del in Kansas wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Forgot to mention non-resident anydeer tag was $175 last year and antlerless was only $7 each. They really want us to shoot more does in MO.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay took it better than I thought [chuckle] although when I was out working my noble horses I swore there was a bright flash just on the horizon to the west-southwest.It's beyond me how/why someone sees any deviation to his “pronouncements” as a personal attack and a slight. I read and reread my entries, yet I fail to see where I’m being unreasonable.As far as my hunting and shooting experience I’ve done more than some, less than many others. I’m certainly not a pro or seek to be seen as a “pro”. ...Not my pay grade.I doubt most on this blog would really care I did claim cosmic hunting and shooting knowledge anyway, them being the malcontents they are.Haven’t been banned yet. :-)

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from Del in Kansas wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

RMHIf you want a nice white tail go to North Missouri. Many of the counties there have trophy deer management. You can only shoot 1 buck and he must have at least 4 points on one antler. You can shoot all the does you want. There are some real nice busks running around. This is a fairly new development. I expect it to become a popular spot for non-resident trophy hunters simular to Kansas. The last 2 years my friends and I have seen numerous mature bucks. There is also plenty of public hunting.

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from Chad Love wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Apparently I typed too soon...

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from Ricochet wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay, don’t bother with mark. Probably got one of those long necks stuck in his mouth?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter130 grain? NO JOKE! That should be a hot little bullet for deer in a 30-06 and imagine a 300 Mag? WOW! The only problem I would have with that, I hunt around cattle. Other than that, O’Boy!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Mark, there you go again! Instead of asking why Steve Hornady turned down the idea of a 250 grain, you opened your mouth once again falling flat on your face once again. You didn’t even answer my question of the use of a 12 inch string! You say fancy words yet your void with experience but that’s ok! You started really great about Ordinance steel barrels that got me thinking and brings up the question of why 264 Win Mag and 220 Swift don’t use the same materials. The 223 with a 70 grain VLD stands up very well with the 30 cal’s at 600 yards. You should have asked the question why!Mark there is some truth of me using a shovel and an ATV. A shovel to put out camp fires, make drainage ditches around the tent, digging out someone’s truck and searching for lost hunters on an ATV to name a few. What’s so wrong in a do it yourself hunt Mark! ATV’s do not damage the trails like a large 4x4 and would sink in the tundra. At least I’m prepared for whatever situation that comes up. My ATV also has a VHF/UHF 50 watt transceiver on it with all the HAM repeater and State Police and Military frequencies and yes Mark to save argument; I do have a FCC license to use it! So tell me Mark, think what would happened in those hunting and outdoor accidents, if I wasn’t prepared??? It could have been you Mark!The bottom line is this mark; it’s not just the knowledge of one individual. It’s the collective of the group sharing thoughts and ideas what really makes a team!

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Meant to say .460 S&W for that M 94 wish above! Not sure what happened. But what was I thinking anyway? M 70 Lefty in .270 Win for the old Curmudgeon! Go Winchester!SA

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Ah well Yooper. Doesn't add to my pocket just my pride when 'my team' wins. I do believe 'we' can end the Patriots' season in the samw way we won last night though.That is two weeks off so we have more time to talk rifles in between!I am hoping against hope that 'The New Winchester' company will make a Model 70 with lines like the original. Maybe even chamber a lefty version in .280 Rem for a certain curmudgeon blog editor! Item next would be a 'Big Bore 94' in .460 S&W; talk about a rifle/wheelgun combination suitable for any game on this continent! Finally; if they would make a really nice competition grade .22 LR bolt gun I would be in line for that one!SA

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

SilverArrowYeah, we got our butts whupped! I guess it was too good to be true. I thought ole Brett would pull that one off, then beat New England. Oh well. It doesn't affect me anyway. Ain't no one out there gonna make more left handed rifles whether or not anyone wins a football game!But thanks for thinking about me.YooperJack

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Yooper; How about my NY GIANTS!!!NFC Champions! Didn't truly eat Favre's lunch, but they had his dessert!Do have to tip my hat to Brett and the Packers; played a hell of a game and were classy when it ended.SA

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Hey Clay,Barnes is coming out with a 130 grain Tipped Triple Shock solid copper BT bullet. It should have a great BC due to the polymer tip and the expansion and retention of weight of the Triple shock.Might be a real git 'er dun load.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

So much for civility! How bout them jints?YooperJack

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Our Most Underrated Cartridge is the 30-06, why! If you shot as much as I have in the lower 48 and lived in Alaska long enough working with Hunters and guide services, you will learn that the 30-06 is the best rifle for the average hunter. All the respectable guides I knew, will not allow any rifle under 30 caliber. Show up with a 7mmRem Mag and you’ll be setting there until you have at least a 30-06, the right bullet and able to hit reasonable accurate. These respectable guides will back you up on dangerous game but unlike others they will not shoot your game for you!For the lower 48, the 30-06 when hand loaded, you can achieve magnum results without the blast, recoil and the cost with selective loads for everything from jack rabbits and coyotes with a 100 to 110 grain bullet @3500 fps. If you want a load for open country and cross canyon shooting, a 130 grain @3300fps is ideal for mule deer. Elk 165 to 180 and moose 180 to 220 grain. I’ve loaded up 250 grain in my 06 one time, but I wasn’t impressed at all. So we tried this bullet in 300 Win Mag. A lot of boom, recoil, and dropped like a rock. So I pulled the remainder of the bullets and used them in my sling shot for grouse.The bottom line is this. In my book, the 30-06 can be tweaked and peaked to practically fill any shooting situation in the hands of the “average shooter” and give the big boys the run for their money too!

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay,At least I hunt and shoot with a firearm, not with a shovel and an ATV.Howl as much as you want when folks question or qualify your statements or express their own opinions, but you can't change the Laws of Physics with dogma, nor can you modify 80-years of hunting and shooting research and history trite, chest-beating statemnts.

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from Ed wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

It's true that should you already own...a .270, you don't "need" a .280 too. But, at the risk of upsetting millions of .270 fans and addicts, the .280 is actually the better of the two, in my opinion. Better than an 06 too....hmmmmmmm? I have solved this very tough dilemna by owning all 3 (the sweating has finally stopped...lol). The .280 is one d**m fine cartridge and if you think it needs just a tad more uuummmpppffff, the LM loading will do all the .280 A.I. will do!

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from Visitor wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

ga’YEP!, I hunt four legs and feathered! Bar stools and bird brain women that will circle the chair three time before setting down! Now thats funny LMOA!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

By the way, the AR15 with a 1-7 twist shooting a 70 grain bullet works fantastic on the 600 yard line in NRA High Power Matches

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from Alamo wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Seems appropriate to me Chad. Congenial discussion of technical issues, vociferous debate on political principles.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

O’Mark, you told Ricochet you’ve been to Alaska or haven’t you. I know you’re not the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to shooting. Hornady only had a round nose bullet at that time and didn’t see the need for a spire point bullet. Just what Alaskans would expect out of outsiders like you would say! I wonder I f you know the use of a 12 inch string for gutting a moose and the biggest laugh to watch a person gut their first caribou. Funny thing, you always fall short of telling something with experience, so Clintonistic of the stories you tell!

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from Chad Love wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I wouldn't have guessed this post would get over 170 comments so far. The tone is almost...I don't know..congenial.What's with you people the past few days?

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

is this because of a smaller bullet diameter?

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Clay, good post.. now I downloaded a chart for the .204 Ruger..204:40 gr v-max 30gr BLC-2 at 3774 fps and 26.02 " drop at 500yd.22-250:40 gr v-max 39.5 Varget at 4135 fps and a27.5" drop at 500yd.now I would think the 22-250 at361 fps faster would not drop 1.45 " lower at 500 yds. This is with a 250 yd zero. Idon't have a ballistic chart on the .204 but It would have to be flatter shooting at 100 yds, than the 22-250 in this bullet weight right?

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Devil Dog & Jim in Mo:The .35 Whelen 225 gr Federal Trophy Bonded's were supposed to be back in production in 2007 according to the Federal catalog, web site, and an email I got from Federal some time back.There are some available from folks on GunBroker.com from time to time. with ammo pricing and availability, you will likely pay as much for the new production as some off the auctions. Buy whatever you can find unless you handload. The .358 TB's bullets cost about as much as loaded cartridges.I'm hanging on to the 3+ boxes I have on hand. It only takes about 3 rounds a year :-)From personal experience, they are absolutely devastating on elk and deer at any reasonable range. I get 2616 fps 15 feet from the muzzle with my M700 22 in. barrel. The ballistics table is not so impressive, but I have never tried to eat a ballistics table from an ammo catalog or magazine article. The venison, on the other hand, is absolutely marvelous.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I’m not certain I agree completely with what Clay postulates.Heat-Barrels: Steel sporting barrels are indeed different from ordinance steel found in military rifles. Ordinance steel barrels are designed to with stand more destructive heat effects of volume fire, but you can still burn out the barrel of a military rifle [i.g. M-60 light machine gun. Troopies learn how to switch the barrels].I’ve had some experience with the 264 Mag and considerable experience with the 220 Swift. Burning all that powder will burn out a commercial sporting barrel using a premiscuious fast rate of fire in any commercial rifle. I don’t know how this fact can be changed cost effectively. It does seem modern powders have aided longer barrel life in these notorious two cartridges.70-grain .22 bullets. I don’t think the case is large enough in 222, 222 mag, and 223’s to push this bullet weight, w/stability, except using the fast 1:7 twist. That’s why the military went from the 1:14 twist to the 1:12 twist and rested upon the 1:7 twist with the standard military 62-grain bullet. In my limited experience loading for 223 that 1:7 twist must tear commercial 50 and 55-grain 22 varmint bullets apart loading above 2.9k-fps. Maybe other bloggers can bear me out here. I saw nothing, but frustration in loading 222’s and 223’s to 3k fps in rifles with this fast twist. ….Another point why I’m doubtful of the hunting value of AR style rifles for hunting.It’s a given boat-tail bullets are for long range shooting. What is a *hunter* doing shooting long distance on something big enough needing a 250-grain bullet? That’s why the suggestion was blown off, Clay.

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from Lyn wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Late to the party, as usual.I ran a Excel spreadsheet on Hornady factory loads... .25-06, .270, .280, 7mm-08, .308, .30-06. Bullet speed, foot pounds of energy, and trajectory at 100, 200, and 300 yards. With the exception of the .25-06, there's not much to argue about. It's splitting hairs. They will all do the job in the hands of a competent marksman. Dance with what brung ya. As Col. Cooper once told me, "Carry what you shoot, and shoot what you carry."

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Even if it was able to line up these critters, I don’t believe for a minute that a 175-grain Swift A-Frame, for example, will shoot through two moose and kill a porcupine on the far side. The reason for this is its lack of ability to maintain it stability, it would tumble! The number one problem the moose and bear hunters in Alaska found, that the 175 is not a stable bullet.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Mr. Petzal, I find a few cartridges failed due to poor marketing. However, the majority of them were due to the ignorance of the rifle manufacturer not identifying its short comings. Take the 244/6mm Remington for example and what I’ve known for years.The 6mm Remington was introduced by Remington in 1963 to “REPLACE” the original 1955 version, the 244. The two cartridges are identical in every way and are based on the 7 x 57mm case necked down with the shoulder angle increased by 5 degrees. The 244, as it was introduced, had a twist rate of 1:12”, which left it unable to stabilize the long 100 grain spire point bullets and thereby reduced the versatility of the round. As a result, the 243 Winchester gained all the fame and glory in the 6mm caliber. When Remington finally changed to a 1:9” twist and renamed the cartridge, the shooting public became interested. Now the 6mm Remington rates very close to the 243 in popularity, as rightfully it should. Ballistically speaking, the 6mm Remington has a very slight advantage over the 243, but the difference in not enough to show a significant advantage on game animal.Another failure was the 264 Winchester Magnums the firearm manufacturers were ignorant again to realize its short comings due to materials used to make the barrel that resulted in short barrel life. Once again, it’s not the iceberg that sunk the Titanic, it was the poor grade steel used to construct it!Another blunder is the 223 Remington. The military version had a 1:14” twist barrel to just barley stabilize the bullet until impact, thus the bullet would tumble resulting in deadly results. This was ideal for the Military, not good for the Sportsmen that its version was in 1:12” twist. Times have change and shooters are now using bullet weights as heavy as 75 grains, requiring a 1:7” twist. Thompson Contender would sale more 223 barrels, if only they would change the twist from 1:12” to 1:9” twist to shoot 63 grain bullets. Nosler makes a .224 diameter 60 grain partition that would be ideal for deer.Mainly it’s not the cartridge that made the failure; it’s the manufacturer of the firearm that prevented it from its full potential, mainly the specifications of rate of twist and/or the materials used to prolong the barrel life.For bullets, why do bullet manufacturers do not make changes to better the sale of their products? The Ballistic tip has been out for 40 plus years formally called the Remington Bronze Point and now other bullet manufactures think it’s a new idea like Nosler ballistic tips and Hornady SST. My question to Nosler is, is it time to make a Partition Ballistic tip? I wrote Steve Hornady back in 1990 about Alaska needing a 338 250 grain soft point boat tail. Of course like many, he wrote back that we didn’t need such a bullet. I also called Sierra about their Game Kings that are fantastic on those long shots except the bullet would come apart shedding the lead core from the jacket. The person I was talking to denied that a problem ever existed then finally admitted it and they were working on the problem. All of this reminds me of the Alaska State Government that is in Juneau. If the Capital was moved to Shemya Alaska, things would be done a lot quicker! My point is this, if they had to live and hunt in the places we are, they would quickly change their way of thinking. Kind of like some fella in Florida telling people in the winter how to dress when it’s minus 60 below!

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Great post Chev Jim.Sometimes I think I'm reading an outdoors Cheech-n-Chong script on this blog. Nice to read a change.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Bubba you got the right idea about the knife making Make what you enjoy,enjoy what you make.. I was down to Pigeon Forge Tenn. a little while back and went to the Smoky Mtn. Knife works, always buy several for myself or to give away, but I saw they have several different style of blanks, was going to buy a few to tinker with but got carried away and didn't.. Going back next month and will get a few to play with.. we go down there quit regularly. We love it down there in the Smokies.. We alway go to Cades Cove, I'm sure Dr. Ralph knows what i'm talking about.. Last time down there we saw 52 deer one morming, My brother in law was about 30 min. ahead and he saw 2 bear also. Tennesse is a great state, I'm only about 4-1/2 hr. away straight down I-75. Well better go now, what you think about the game last night??

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from sarg wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Bubba, any bullet you can load in the 30-06 will fit the .308... Read your manuals, they will fit but you can in no way get the same ballistics.. I've load about any thing available in the 308, but once you go beyond the 150 gr, the 06 has the advantage of more case capacity. I have loaded 165gr Bt in mine but not to the same performance as the same in the 06..7x51.... how is the short action more accurate than the 06?? I believe any one familure with the two would like to know where you get this info.. I can (by book) do or match anything with my .308 that can be done with the 06 UNTIL I get past the 150 gr, More accurate, not really . I believe its like someone just said, it's better to match the bullet and cartridge to the game Some will match a little wider range but no bullet is suitable to all game. get that notion out of your head now...

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I'm sorry. I thought that the bigger case on the 06 allowed you to use bigger bullets. I know that both can use any 30 cal, but I didn't think that a 308 would perform acceptably with the heavier ones.YooperJack

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Only one I "aruge" with is Yooper Jack. More bullets for the .30-'06 than for the .308? C'mon YJ! Any .308 bullet with fit either case! I find loading data for the same set of bullets for both cartridges.7X51, listen, all in the world a .308 Win or 7.62 NATO is, is a .30-'06 SHORT! Same bullet, same case shortened! Amazingly, pretty close ballistics!Bubba

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from 7x51 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I never said i could spell

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from 7x51 wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

I prefer the .308. Short action, more acurate, less recoil, much easier to load for as its not picky and takes less powder and is exactly the same up to 180 grain loads. Anything heaver than that, and you really need to buy a .338 win mag. Dont try to aruge, the above statements are facts for anyone who knows crap on balistics or reloading...and buy the way, i shoot neither.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Jamie:What's your intended use? What part of the country do you hunt?I don't think there is much difference, 06 has more bullet sizes. Both are readily available.YooperJack

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from Jamie wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

This is not so much about the catridged mentioned, but how good is a .308 as compared to a .30-06? Recoil, groups, range, etc. Thanks

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

Boy, only in a rifle column will you find a metaphor from J.R.R. Tolkien! Chev Jim, I think that's just evolution. I think back to the early days of America, and how gunpowder was first applied, I don't think small caliber weapons would have been practical. I suspect that "brushbusting capability" probably came from experiences learned in that era.YooperJack

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 12 weeks ago

sargKnow a fella up the road that "builds" knives. He's given me two or three. I keep them on my reloading bench. They're the most horrendous things I've ever tried to use. The blades are thick and heavy and the handles are square. The blade so hard you need a diamond hone to sharpen it!Come to find out, he builds "kit" knives, and charges an arm and a leg for them.My knife building is not a hobby nor a living. As I have an idea or a need for a particular blade, that's what I build. I haven't built a blade in nearly three years but I've had an idea and am beginning to shape the blank. I don't use C40 stainless with a Rockwell hardness of 80-oughty-80 or what ever! I just use what ever I have at hand. My favorite skinning knife that "I" made was built from a discarded edger blade I found. The handle is black walnut and it will shave. It's easy to sharpen on a carborundum stone and holds an edge very nicely! I've got some old machete