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Petzal: A Sorrowful Tale of High Velocity

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August 18, 2008

Petzal: A Sorrowful Tale of High Velocity

By David E. Petzal and Phil Bourjaily

Once upon a time in 2007, there was a hunter who had done very well in phrenology and went to a Wise Custom Gun Builder (hereinafter known as WCGB) and said, “Build me a 7mm STW.”

“Why do you want a 7mm STW?”, asked the WCGB. “Unless you put a 28-inch barrel on it, an STW is just another 7mm magnum, and the only thing a 28-inch barrel is good for is pole vaulting.”

But the Wealthy Hunter (hereinafter known as WH) was like many other men who had done well in life. Because he knew from phrenology, and making money, he thought he knew about guns and hunting as well, and would not listen to the WCGB who had been accumulating knowledge for 40 years but who, after all, had to make a dollar now and then.

They compromised on a 26-inch barrel. The WH took delivery of the rifle, worked up a handload employing 140-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips at nearly 3,600 fps that went into one ragged hole, and went off to practice.

That fall, the WCGB got a call from the WH who said,

“I’m going on a mule deer hunt with an outfitter who guarantees me a shot at a 35-inch buck. It’s $14,000, and I’m taking the STW.”

“But what happens if you get a shot at 100 yards,” said the WCGB, “the Ballistic Tip is a peerless projectile, but at that kind of range with that velocity it’ll blow up. You won’t even break a rib. Use another bullet.”

“What do you know,” sneered the WH. “That rifle shoots ¼-inch groups and I can hit groundhogs with it at 600 yards.”

The WCGB sighed and went back to his lathe; he had heard it all before.

****
And so a month passed. Then the phone rang in the WCGB’s shop. It was the WH, back from the West.

“*&^*(*&*&&&#@^!@#$,” said the WH.

“Let me guess,” said the WCGB, “you got a shot at 100 yards and you never even broke a rib. You lost your 35-inch deer and they couldn’t find him.”

“It took them three days to find the carcass,” said the WH. “It was completely rotted. They sent me the antlers. *#&^%&*()&^^%!”

This is a true story; only the names have been changed to protect the silly. I would point out what the morals are, but you can deduce them yourself. Unless, of course, you’ve made a lot of money at something and don’t need any kind of advice from anyone.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 32 weeks ago

I got a Custom built 30-06 on a Mauser Action. Made in Germany. Is a Beaut. not scoped and do not plan to as want orig. My problem is it shoot too high at l00 yds. The rear sights are 3 leaf fold downds with a slide in the solid rib on top of bbl and the sight is a blade type, held in place by a screw. What do I need to do to get this rifle to shoot lower ( on target) at 100 yds, raise or lower the rear sight? I;ve lowerd the rear sight as lw s it will fold down, what tions are left for me? Do I have the Gun Smith make a taller front sight???? Any suggestions appreciated. I cannot lower the rear sight any lower as all the leafs ae layin flat on top of the rib which runs from the breech to the muzzle.Rib is about l/4" square. I can;t believe it left the builder shooting as high as it does now. It's a good 12" high at l00 yds. Rifle hasa a dble set rigger with a 12 oz pull,very touchie indead, not a great hunting rifle with that light a trigger. PS; Love my new MArlin XL7 in 270. First syn stocked gun I;ve seen that the stock really fied the metal as it should. Lks as if the stock ws hand tooled for the metal. Any you guys tried Bshnells Dusk to Dawn scope witth 6" eye relief with eye focus on the eye end? It has a 4 power when adjusting for focus and urned up to 10 x can see the animal as if was in your lap. Not a high dollar scope but pratical and clarity is equal to som high dollar scopes I have. This is my 4 wheeler/pickup gun for deer and Cyotes. he Rem 700 in 06 or 25-0 are my hunting guns herer and out west.Do use the 336 in 30-30 for woods hunting here un-scoped. All advice appreciated. SA i;m73 and yet lots to ler about guns, ammo,scopes and bullets. But do like the Scricco's for long range shoting. With a Boattail and plymar tip the bullet flies straight/flat with little drop out to 350 yds, zeroed for 200 yds.You younger guys ca have the magmums, I only weigh l28 lbs and can;t handle them. The 06 with weight to near l0 lbs is just rigth for me,. Thought about reducing the triger pull, but the 6 animals I've killed with it even ou to 345 yds, the pulll gave me no problem. As old saying goes, if ain't broke do try to fix. THe old Southern Gunslinger

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 32 weeks ago

For many years we didnot haveW-tails where I lived. We had to drive south 300 miles to the flatland to hunt. They only allowed shotguns and BuckShot to hunt with. Some years later we didget Deer in our area and being in the Mtns, any gun was legal. For several years I used a 30-30, then a 30-06, loaded with plain Jane Core-lokts. I continued to use that type bullet until I had a oportunity to go to the Rockies. After talking with the guys in Colorado they suggested a tad different round. I bought some Remington l68 gr Extended range in 06 for several trips and had great success. The Rem started this WAR of FPS and deleted teh extended range round. A few years back Rem came out with the Scricco;s Bonded in l50 and l80 gr bullets. My hunting Elk and Deerout ther I chose the l80 grs. The past 3-4 yrs I've killed many animals in the Rockies using this round adn to this day not recovered a bullet. 2 ys ago I killed a Lope in Wy at 325 yrs and a Deer at 345 yds all l shot and fell in their tracts. Then this past year here at home I shot a large w-tail at 270 yds,the bullet entered the right shoulder about l/2 way up,continued thr his lungs and thru the left shoulder. Both holes about size of Dime. This lst year that 270 yrd shot, the Deer was standing broadsided to me near scrub pines and a 5 ft wire fence. That deer jumped the fence, ran 70-8o- yds and piled up,with blood ozzing out both holes , mouth, nose, etc. With both front legs broken, lungs gone,I cannot how he ran so far. Lke most hunters I prefer the bullet to go thru the animal, as you got 2 bleed holes for tracking. Many want a bullet to stay midway thru and do the damage inside, suppose its ok, but I feel different. All I ask for is a makeable shot and put the bullet in the correct spot. Yes, I tried the Mag. jobs andafter a clip full shot thru the gun, traded it back for another 30-06. This year i will tae my 30-06 and a 270 to the Rockies and use teh 30-06 to begin with.If get the Elk first,then will switch to the 270 for Deer. For Lopes in Wy,the 700 25-06 with Winchester ll7 gr Ballastic tips will get your Lope and damage lots of meat.I do prefer a quick kill as do not care to watch a animal to try getting up. Pratice and pratice never hurt any hunter, as where I live, litle other than W-tails and a few Coyotes is about all we got to hunt.Hopefuly in N.C. we gonna get a longer season in 2009.Was at a gun show yesterday,ammo and firearms have increased by about 20% in a year and even more on some Ammo. So better stock up on Ammo. At 73 I think I got enough, but just to be safe gonna buy a few more boxes before I head to the Rockies in late Oct. Back to bullets, I love the polymar tips on bullets now, will surely open up a good trail and will penetratr bone as well. Shoot-um-straight and often. The Old Gunslinger down south.At my age, few trips westward left, so gonna make the best of this trip in Oct. Being disabled/handicapped, I'm lucky to even hunt here in my back door, but I love the Rockies and smell of sage and beautiful fall colors. If you never been, go. Can always pay later. You don;t need a cannon to hunt out there, 30-06 is ample, other than for the big old Bears. Jack OcConnor thought the 270 ample, but I don;t agree l00%, depends on animal, where hit and distance away. I bet if truth be known, he now and then slipped in a 06 or 300 win mag on some hunts. My 06's all weigh about 10 lbs and have little recoil, about like a 243.Good luck to you hunters this fall, hopefuly we will fill our tags, and I know will have a enjoyable outing at 10-12K feet, The Screenry is out of this world. Take lots of film if your first trip. I always got a disposble camera in my day-pack.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 33 weeks ago

Just purchase a 700 CDL in 06 and a CDl in 25-06 wil be the only two guns you will ever need in the lower 48. If the Beautiful Walnut is not you cup of tea, then go with the Syn stock. The new Marlin XL7 is a very nice gun, love my 270 for log shots that the 25-06 is a tad light on. Stick with the l50 gr on teh 270 and you on,even for Elk. Plan to try both this Oct. in the Bitteroots. With teh prices of ravel, hunting, this will be my lst trip west unless a rich uncle leaves me a ton. Cost are up about 40% from 2 ys ago. So I plan to make the most of this trip, then just hunt here in the deep south as long as possible. Has ben a great ride, sadly time slips by. So if you plan on a trip SOMETIME, best you do it. After becoming disabledi l990, figured my huns were over, but the man above made a excetion for me and allow me to take the game I wanted out west. Now I will just try to improve and enjoy one final view of the country from up about 12K feet. Shoot often and straight. Once zeroed to your liking,leave be till your hunt is over. I do take a test shot once I land in MT just to make sure the baggage handlers forgot to drop my gun down at 40K feet.Appears they try their best to ruin what is inclosed in that new gun case, Luggage is costing a ton this year, but how you gonna get it there,? UPS, Fed X higher and no guarantee's on either way. O for a safe, successful trip and vist long ago made new friends in the Rockies. Take care guys, after Nov. we may not own any guns, so best you hunt hard in 2008.

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from Lone Star 45 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Del in KSIf they don't make it illegal by then. Just remember a big bag of M&M's and Mountain Due before sending them home.Called, PAY BACK!

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Dr Ralph,It don't get much better after college. My kids finished college 7 years ago. Now it's buy buy buy for the weddings, and grand children and trips for visits. Heck I just had to buy 3 tickets to London for my son's wedding. Daughter is due with first G-child next month.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I shot 100 rounds last weekend Clay. Two boxes of the cheapest of the cheap FMJ American Eagle .40 S&W's $16.99 a box. Two years ago I was buying Winchester hollow points for half that... bricks of .22's aren't even cheap now. Used to pay $8.99 at Bass Pro for the Rem Golden bullets now they're $19.99!!! Shooting a lot less now I have to admit but really because gas, food, and everything else has gone up and I'm buying it all for five people with two in college. In five years I should be on easy street with the kids gone and the house paid off. Probably die about that time with my luck...

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Just got off the phone with Gary atReeder Custom Guns2601 E. 7th Ave.Flagstaff, AZ 86004Going to take my 357 Blackhawk 9mm cylinder and rechamber it to 356 GNR! Gary said it will have the power of a 41 magnum and if I had the old model Ruger I would have to watch my loads. $150.00 for rechambering and $90.00 for the dies. I can live with that!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Hey Ralphy!If you shot 100 rounds every weekend like me, you would! LOL!!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

JnorrisPraise God your back, NO JOKE!

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from JNorris wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Back at the computer, no hard feelings toward Mr. Cooper or anybody.I enjoy this blog too much to get ran off by anything or anyone.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I don't know why everyone's complaining about the price of Weatherby ammo. I can still get the plain jane round noses for $34.99 a box and they're covered in dust because no one else buys them... last box of Federal 30-06's I bought were over $30.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I have a 9mm cylinder for my Ruger 357 mag and thinking of modifying it to357 Bain and Davis

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

EdIs this part of getting old?

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from Ed J wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

ClayI have also been known to open mouth- insert foot.JNorrisKeep on reading, but be careful you might learn something about human nature. We enjoy misunderstanding each other.

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from Ed J wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Edward J PalumboThat reminds me of what a freind of mine did many years ago.Bill had an old Krag Jorgenson in 30/40. He cast some bullets for it and hand loaded them. Only problem was they couldn't hit the target until he got within about 20 yds. The holes were just ragged tears with brown edges. He quit and went home. couple of days later some of us were visiting him and he showed us his targets, and the bullets and powder he was using. You know you don't use the data for IMR4831 when you have IMR4198. He lived to the ripe old age of 83.

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from Edward J. Palumbo wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Dave's "Sorrowful Tale" reminds me of a WH who blew the cylinder on his Ruger .44 Magnum Super Blackhawk and asked gunsmith John Dewey of Millerton, NY, to make another cylinder of stainless steel. John told him he was able to do it, but it would take a while and would be significantly more expensive than a replacement cylinder from Ruger. The WH accepted the cost without hesitation, and John made the cylinder.Some time after John completed it, the WH arrived at John's home & shop and told John that the stainless cylinder had blown. John was very skeptical and asked the WH, "What load are you using?" WH cited from memory a max load of Unique with a 240-grain jacketed bullet. John shook his head, "Stiff load, but it shouldn't have ruptured the cylinder." Reaching for a can of Unique, John pensively drew on his pipe and asked, "So-o-o, you used this powder and it blew the cylinder?" The WH shook his head, "No, not that powder," he pointed to another can on the bench and corrected, "that one." John reached for the can of Bullseye to which the fellow had pointed and asked again, "You used THIS powder?" Yes, the WH recognized it by the color of the can. John shook his head, "Well, no wonder you blew the cylinder! Even the Ruger's not built to take that kind of pressure!" John explained that Bullseye had a different burning rate and higher peak pressure than the same amount of Unique.John passed away a few years later at age 56, but that topic (color-coded powder cans) came up from time to time. It pays to consult the wise gunsmith, a good reloading manual and/or other reliable references before courting serious disappointment.

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Dr Ralph,You might try giving that dog a pigskin chew once a day. They come in large packs that are cheap at Wally world. Worked for my pup.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Ed JLS45 is telling off on me!75 vmax?That’s even nastier!!YUCK!Ed, I hope I didn’t run JNorris off?After I found out what he was getting at, I feel bad about it.

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from Ed J wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

ClayTry the Hornady 75 vmax in your 25-06. Make sure the skunk is at least 150yds out. Yup did that.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

LS45Sure vaporized that critter!I remember pieces parts flying and hair and moister floating in the air all around us.O’brother was that a mistake!Shooting a skunk walking away at 40 yards upwind with a 52 grain hollow point in a 22-250 is not the thing to do! I thought I never get that smell out of my hair, skin and sinus!

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from Lone Star 45 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Clay have you shot anymore skunks with your 22-250?UPWIND!!

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from Lone Star 45 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

JNorris, Do not be afraid to offer suggestions !!!!!!!Clay isn't as harsh as it looks.Just misunder stood you!I know this cranky Crusty O'NCO for many years!!!!!Take it EEZZZYYY Clay!!!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I will agree to hear more about this line of ammunition and it would be great for deer too!...My problem is, I like to shoot a lot and the velocities will be less with the Barnes that probably change the point of impact.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

JNorrisYou have my humble apology Sir!Sorry if I came at ya!Tell your Ar Tender, the nxt glass is on me!! :)

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

JNorrisYou may be right about the wind sure blows around here..but your ideas really suck! Why they suck? You’re not able to backup what you say!!!Joseph doesn’t have deep pockets and neither do I. Therefore I use what is best at hand and find it to be the best choice. It’s funny in High Power Competition while everyone else used Sierras and Berger’s costing more money, I used Hornady Match bullets. Everyone wanted to know is why am I kicking butt with an old warn out M1 Garand so they tried my Hornady loads and said they were more accurate and had to drop several clicks especially on 600 and 1000 yard line because there flatter shooting and they are cheaper too! And when I upgraded to build a Ultra match M1A... WOW!Go ahead and follow the crowd JNorris, while I enjoy greater things!“Greatness is never appreciated in youth, called pride in midlife, dismissed in old age, and reconsidered in death. Because we cannot tolerate greatness in our midst, we do all we can do destroy it.”-J. Michael Straczinski, creator and arc writer of Babylon 5, from production #309, episode #53, “Point of No Return,” spoken by Lady Morella, the prophetess widow of Centauri Emperor Touranne

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from JNorris wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Clay Cooper,Thats why I am not afraid to offer suggestions or advice even at the risk of getting ridiculed by fellow bloggers. My advice is not far off, although, I agree with you that an antelope is not difficult to put down with a well place shot. I also suggested the barnes because I would like to hear more about it and it would be great for deer etc...

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Most of all, being alone on a mountain ridge, setting on a giant rock overlooking the endless landscape where perhaps no man ever walked.To watch a snow flurry on a far mountain ridge and feel the Lord setting next to me enjoying what God has made.I may have come home empty handed,but my mind is full of awesome memoriesit is a experience, I'll never forget!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

JNorris-Alan Ashley-Pitt said it best“The man who follows the crowd will usually get no further than the crowd. The man who walks alone is likely to find himself in places no one has ever been.”

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from JNorris wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Like I said the wind sure blows around here..

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Whats the deal with Moose loads on dear with some of you guys!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

JNorris, are you hunting as Lone Star 45 will put it, a radioactive zone with freak Antelope we don’t know about in Wyoming that would explain the use of Barnes bullets? LMOA!JosephI haven’t priced Federal 110’s, but I bet they are proud of them. You don’t need a heavy constructed bullet like Barnes on antelope! Your shots will be likely 200 or less and over 300 is a rarity but be prepared. Because you can get away with using cheaper ammo on lopes you can get more trigger time on Jacks and yodel dogs etc to hone in your skills like I have. By the way, a lot of times Antelope will lie down until you’re almost on top of them before busting like a covey of quail! If it’s been very dry water holes are may be good to watch if there are plenty of fresh tracks. But I found running fence lines to find busted wire with fresh tracks and watching for them crossing over. Then setting up downwind preferably with the sun at your back is best with a low profile blind or tan colored canvas the color of the grass is a good choice. Remember, there sight is better than Dave’s Zeiss Victory 8x32 T* FL binoculars!Joseph, the key to busting an Antelope is not with a “NUKE STRIKE” but with a well place shot!! Something else I almost forgot. Make sure the horns are well above the ears. I’ve know too many does mistaken for bucks because of this.

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from Yohan wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Hey Ralph ,.. nahh too ornery to get snatched up,..had dream the other nigh tho about the night I spent in the woods yeasr ago after compas got reversd from ore depoits ,..Some night that was ,..Jeeze that was spookyBeen busy,... trying not to go broke with all the right wing ripoff artits in power. Figured when I heard a few month ago ,.. when questioned as to the present retail price of a gallon of gas our boy Bushy didn know ,. time to get a little defensive as to positions,. stil getting a$$ kicked in bank stock thoNice looing pooch ,Ralph Really !!As I am partial to metric calibrrs so am I partial to Chesapeaks ,..But somehting about a lab puppy especially a blond lab puppy tugs at my heart strings ,.. Its gonna be a great fall for you Sure you will enjoy her a great deal,..congrats.As to the 257 or anything close I dont care how fast you shoot it just use "enough bullet" so you dont do the animal wrong.you know what I mean Im sure.Joseph:as much as I have in the past cranked on poor ole clay Cooper,. aside from being one of the most opinionated humans I have ever encountered he dos not speak withe forked tounge.You can't go far wrong with his advise.I'll be watchin boys

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from JNorris wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Joseph,I live in eastern Wy, the wind blows almost asmuch as it does on this blog. Main thing is if you can get to a range that has 300 yard capability. Practice at that range, that way your ready for about anything. Out of twenty years, I have only shot two antelope that were over 200 yards away. You might want to try the new federal 110gr barnes loads if you want fast then you can report back to this blog on how they performed.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

and yes Joseph the 100 will work fine. I would use a 130 or 140 boat tail for the crosswind but if your comfortable with the 100's go for it dude!AND GOOD LUCK!

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from Visitor wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

overkill, overspeed, overclocked, overdone. all means the same thing...too much is not always better.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

JosephCongratulations on the Antelope hunt!Antelope are one of the easiest to take down animals I know of and a 22-250 with a 55 grain works great. Remember Joseph, you’re hunting in open country which is prone to high gusty crosswinds and bullet drift is something to think about. You will have to time your shots with the wind at its minimum or lull to take that shot. Carry extra ammo and if you get there the day before or have time, start at the farthest range you know you can hit and when the good hardy crosswind take a few shots to see how much drift you get to compensate, be sure not to over compensate. You’ll also have difficulty in judging distances because you will not have trees etc. A hunter’s moon on the horizon looks monstrous and then shrinks and looks very small directly overhead. If you measured the diameter at the horizon and directly overhead, you will find the moon is the same diameter!Gotta run!

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Dr. R,Give that dog a softball (I,m not joking, they love them) and let her know it and it only is to be chewed on. Worked like a charm for me, although labs may be more hard headed.

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from Joseph wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

OK, you guys who know so much. I normally take my shots at 200 yds or less with a Wby Vanguard .270 Win. But I was drawn for an antelope hunt and the landowner says 300+ yds is not unusual. So I'm going with 100 gr. Rem pointed soft point. Am I going to be OK if I get surprised with a 50 yd shot with 3000 fps?

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I thought one of those big winged things got you in the Wisconsin woods Yohoho. Ed J says why the .257 Weatherby Mag Ralphy? I'll tell you why. Ol' Roy killed every animal on the planet with one about sixty-five years ago, and I figured if it was good enough for him... Of course that was the good old days when bullets were just bullets and not so specific as to usage. Probably from what I read we were better off with just core-lokts and those Winchester soft points K-mart always had a pallet of for $8.88. Now you actually have to know what you're doing. Plus I'm a gun nut too and one of my buddies has been using a plastic Wally Weatherby in .270 forever and it puts those holes in the paper closer than most people can shoot so when they came out with one for $399 (and that is what I paid) that shoots 3800+ fps guess who was ordering one right away?Got a picture of the new dog punch my name. Poor quality cell phone picture but whatever. It's a girl and it's yellow but at least my wife got the Lab part right. Training is going well. She (Blondie) now has me out of bed by 6:30 every morning so she can do her business. Chewed up three pair of shoes, one cell phone charger and a lamp so far.

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from Yohan wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Yaw yawDat last one yust a little spoof on dat Clay Coper Thomas Paine ( in da,.. ) fella or fellas .

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from Yohan wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Lordgrant me serenity toaccept the thingsI cannot changeThe courage to change for the better the things that I canand the wizdomTo hide the bodies of the peopleI had to kill because they pissed me off .Yohan da yohan

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from Yohan wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Told ya ,. and here ve go again some more ,..7mm ,..160 gr pill at something less than 3000 fps muzle is most stable most powder eficiant , has most retained velocity and down range energy of any sub hyper velocity smoke pole out there.That weight in standard bullet starting out at 2950 fps dosentblow up and will puch through a whole lot of meet and bone upclose and personal if you need it. 9 so will turdy oh six and 8mm properly loaded.But I still maintain after 40 some years,..over 110 whitetails now and counting ,.. turdy cal and less 160-165 gr spitzer sp at2600-2700 fps is all you need out to 300 yds,.. if you practice.Problem there is most guys in the field think 300 yds is about 1/2 a mile. Or the reverse 350 yd is 150,.. have seen it all my life.Like dat Cooper fella says ,. not da indian ya know ,. istda ooops ,..odder waynot da arrow it da Indian Ya?So they need or think they do,..a rifle that shoots salt pills in a straight line for 1/2 a mile ,. which leads to trouble when da big deer or da moose shows up close enough to hit with a regulation baseball yuk yuk ,..

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

“I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.”-- Thomas Paine

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from Lone Star 45 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I’m willing to bet WCGB shot thru something before hitting the deer or is just a lousy shot!

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from Lone Star 45 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Nosler 160 (Moose Load) in a 7mm STW for deer?Can you say, “NUKE STRIKE!”120 grain Barnes will work just fine!Are you guys hunting in a Nuclear Experimental range in Nevada or New Mexico on some genetically altered freak deer?If you must use a bullet of such weight for deer, perhaps you need shooting lessons!!

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from GuyM wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

The 7mm STW is a fine round at any reasonable range. Any rifle will perform poorly with a bad bullet choices and anybody whose ever pulled a trigger should know that. The guy got what he deserved by not listening to the bullet advice he was given. The mule deer was done a great disservice! Nosler 160 grain partitions or accubonds in my STW get the job done fine.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Federal, who seems to occupy the middle ground in 7mm STW factory loads, claims a MV of 3330 fps and muzzle energy of 3435 ft. lbs. with a 140 grain Trophy Bonded bullet (SD .248). The 200 yard figures are 2850 fps and 2520 ft. lbs. This is probably the best bullet weight for medium size big game animals.

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from Yohan wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Yaw Yaw ,.. mostly I yust like to sit and listen,..But,.. I am yust compelled ( which means I feel I should) say to all da guys here .I been playin around at dis here hunting ting quite a while now,..Yet I cant claim expertise odder dan dat gained by experiance ,..Did however manage to punched da ticket on a fair number of da deer over day yeers . (But no bears kinda like bears) and I been cipherin,.. ya know .And by golly if my cipherin isnt goin on now about fourty yeers .Finally a few yeers ago I com to a conclusion.Dat for any ting dat dont bite back or maybe black bear.If you shoot a bullet (turdy caliber and less) dat weighs 160gr which means it gonna have da good sectonal desity at da speed of 2600 fps ,..Unless your shootn em in da feet or da tail or da belly ,. you will kill dead right now,.. any ting in nort Amrica ,.. well maybe not da susquatch ,.. but dont run into many of dem unless in da tavrn Ya?Uffdah !!! dat oughta get da natives restless YUK YUK

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Sorry the last sentence should have stated "shot" not "shoot", its late and I didn't proof read.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Remember the old days when the only chronographs were of limited availibility at shooting clubs or belonged to some well heeled shooter? Since Chrony, ProChrono, and other makes and models have hit the market fitting the working class man's wallet ballistics suddenly changed. Amazing how much slower many rounds, magnum and non-magnum, immediately became. However I am surprised by the fact that some of my rounds like the .17 Rem, the big long barreled 7 mm, and the .25-'06 proved to be as fast or faster than when we only had paper charts to believe. Just an observation that probably most of you have also noticed.One other point generally speaking the farther you are from home the longer the shoot that got your deer or elk becomes when you once again reach home.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

IshawooaAfter these magnuts toy with and get the crap kicked out them long enough will find there is no true pleasure in it. Then and only then they come to their senses and will realize to look at cartridges of the 06 family or find another comfortable round to shoot!!!What’s wrong with a 257 Weatherby besides paying for ammo that is overpriced!Besides, If you can afford to feed it?Go for it!

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

A .257 WBY is a good one BUT most folks can get what they want from a .25-'06 for less money and boom. I was thinking about quarter inch caliber shooters I know and can immediately come up with at least 5 more who shoot this round by sheer preference besides old Sam. All are seasoned hunters and sportsmen except for one who is the son of one of the old guys. Even the kid loves the antique .25-'06. I guess now we will argue that the .257 WBY is older then the .25-'06 Rem. Legitamately yes in reality no, just as Mr. Neidner.

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from Ed J wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Dr RalphBuy experience?so why did you buy a 257 WBY?Its only like 50 yrs.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Ishawooa, Jim in Mo and DR RalphO’You guys are so right! I got a Black Rifle, 22-250, 25-06, 308, three 30-06’s, a cannon and even had a 300 Win mag at one time. Shot more deer with my 22-250 than all the rifles combined. Interesting thing though? After all the years of getting smacked around by the 300, one of the guys that I hunted with really thought to shoot like I do needed my 300. He drooled over it so bad I sold that powder hog to him and bought a 25-06 and never ever looked back! That Jackass couldn’t hit the ground with both feet with it. The real story boils down to this. What a person lacks in skill they try to make it up in fire power resulting in serious adverse affects and besides, the customer is always right!!!! Sooner or later, some little guy like my Grandson Alex is going clean your clock shooting a 25-06! When I was 12, I held my own with a 03-A3 30-06 with Hornady 130 grain against the adults cleaning their clocks while they shot there mags!!! I got a story about a Elk hunt when I was 13 I’ll tell ya’guys later!

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from Michael wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Some people have more money than common sense. Like paying $14,000 for a guaranteed 35 inch mule deer. You wouldn't do that would you, Dave?

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph I understand what you are saying and agree to a point. The other side of the coin reveals that some folks must have the newest, latest, greatest infuring that the older versions are no longer adequate. I chuckle when I read about how inadequate a .270 Win is today since elk and habitat have changed so much since Cactus Jack welded his Model 70's. They would have you believe that the same old Winchester loaded like they were in 1968 won't work today. If, in fact, they happened to give this or many other similiar combinations a try they would be surprised with the results. I have a sixties vintage .270 Sako Finnbear and some decades old handloads that came from an old friend's collection after he passed away. I think I might just shoot a bull elk with one of them instead of pulling the bullets. Then I'll watch my kid shoot one with the big 7 mm and a Berger 168. Like I said both will work if we can hit the critter.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Open your eyes and look around. How many cartridges have made it past their 100th birthday? 30-06 (1906), 30-30 (1895), 7X57 (1893), .22 rimfire (1857), buy experience...

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I've kept my backwoods ignorant mouth shut long enough about this but I can't believe some of the posts coming down on the gunsmith!! If some rich bastard came into my shop and didn't listen to what I advised, as long as he remained civil, I'd build him a cannon, which is what the ignoramous got. And the wrong bullet too.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Clay:I have a friend here in Wyoming who has a closet full of rifles, some custom, some factory, some wood, some not. He hunts the big stuff in Africa and Alaska with a .416 Rem (yep big brother of the 7 STW)but for EVERYTHING else he shoots his beloved .25-'06 the results of which are beyond reproach. Maybe others, including locals, feel it is not enough medicine for elk or moose but old Sam can't find any reason to use something else. Oddly enough he has a wall full of decades of trophies and lots of photos that make his choice (and yours) very difficult to argue against. At one time the longest shot I ever made was with a .25 but have since exceeded that one with one of those long barreled big 7 mm's and it is not an STW. It's even bigger. Yet I love my 7 mm-08 for most hunting. Are not our choices and arguments part of what makes us all gun nuts? Most folks get a .30-'06, are happy as hell, and could care less about our various rifle/cartridge addictions.

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from Visitor wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

The shorter the barrel the less velocity you have!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

BUCKWhat you say has some truth in it. However, with all the razzle dazzle form all the manufacturers the question is?What’s the best choice!?From “Fusion to Delusion, I’ll stick to what I do know which will deliver and some of you know what my choices are!!By the way to learn about something you got to read about it. The problem is, does the author have a broad range of experience for the subject at hand? To know what is the best choice is and cause and effect is? Or feeding you line moose nuggets!The case and point is, for someone to use a 140-grain in a 7mm STW and to say it’s too light of a bullet does not have a clue what they are talking about!! For a 7mm Rem Mag 150 grain bullets of good construction works fantastic on Elk!!Think about this? The Nosler BT has a solid base and that does a lethal job on its own!!!

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

mr. smith,I agree with you on the 7-08 but I think you must use 22 in. or better barrel length in 7-08 to achieve full potential. Nothing wrong with that, better balance than 20 in. models and full burning of powder. If I ever by another rifle strictly for deer size game its going to be a 7-08 handloaded with 139-150gr softpoints.

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from Buck wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I have said the same kind of thing many times. I have it on my website page about bullets. Many hunters don't want to take the time to learn about guns... or how to hunt. WH is probably a good guy who has been successful because of his skills in business. Why does he want to 'buy', rather than learn the skills for hunting?Buck@score-your-hunting.com

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from Lone Star 45 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

If 140 as you say are not good for the 7mm STW then what is? If you’re going to tell me something sucks, you better be able to tell me why and what the fix is!! If not, you are an idiot!

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from James wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

The story sounds believable except for the gun owners trade. He should have read his own being an obvious knothead.

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from Troy S. wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

As comedian Ron White likes to say,"Folks, you can't fix 'stupid'".(Apparently, you can't buy an ounce of common sense, either, even when the market is flooded.)

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from micko wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Sadly, I discovered that the same principles hold true with handgun cartridges. I had a last-minute opportunity to go on a late winter hunt in Illinois, and the ammo cabinet was empty of anything I thought suitable except some 125 gr. .357 "personal defense" ammo. I figured that if they were good enough for the bandit, they should also work on Bambi--wrong! 15 yard broadside shot right on the left shoulder, blood splattered for ten feet on the snow, and she walked off as if annoyed. Tracked her a half mile to property absolutely off-limits; I imagine she became coyote chow. Now I make a point to keep a stock of suitable ammo for the .357, .41 and .44 just in case. Bitter lesson. I've found that some people learn from the mistakes of others, some from their own mistakes, and some just don't learn. I hope I remain in one of the first two categories!

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from mr. smith wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

My 7mm-08 is everything the 270 is and more in my opinion. I can handle heavier bullets and can also shoot the lighter stuff at the same or greater velocity. I don't see how going to the 7-08 is any sort of step down??

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from Dick Mcplenty wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Ya BT's function real well at 3000fps impacts,if you like bullets to fragment and not exit.The 150bt is a staple in the 7mmstw.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

As my 2 year old Granddaughter will say,WELL DDDAAAAAA!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I also find it interesting I can research my own information at hand including the web and within in minutes find the answer as to why the 7MM STW load didn’t work.This should have beenPetzal: A Sorrowful Tale of poor bullet choiceDP must have tossed this out there knowing that the information given was flawed and to see how many will “swallow this hook line and stinker!”

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I find it interesting that the 257 Weatherby is ok!But the 7mm STW isn’t?What’s a mater with you guys?Can’t you fellas get it right!Right from the pages of Nosler ,“Nosler Ballistic Tips are designed to function between a Minimum Impact Velocity: 1600 fps Maximum Impact Velocity: 3000 fps.”In other words, Nosler Ballistic Tips are not designed for magnum ultra velocities!And the recoil of the 7mm STW hurts just thinking about it.Can you say "AIR BALL (BULLET)!"Arm chair specialists, don’t you just love them!

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from Forrest N wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Had a Warbird, big gun, big boom, lots of fun. But, at close range, even with Accubonds, lost a LARGE mule deer in much the same way.Have switched back to 30-06 and .35 Whelen, with much better results on both end of the rifle. For smaller critters, .257 Roberts is stellar!!

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from Dick Mcplenty wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

The 7mm stw has to be one of shootings biggest wastes and horse phuckings of the 1990's.I've seen guys that would have never wasted money on a new rifle buy 7mm stw's to later sell them,because the cartridge didn't produce in standard barrel lengths..Another common problem was over loading in an effort to get the velocities they thought they should be getting.Smith I use has a couple boxes of 7 stw brass with blown primers,flattened primers and case heads,from several differant customers that insisted 7stw was the holy grail.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Thank You Brother ishawooa!I'll stick with my 25-06

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Some decades ago it became apparent to me that a properly constructed bullet which is somewhat heavy for caliber propelled at extra fast velocities from a long barreled magnum will kill critters dramatically at rather extended ranges if the shooter practices a lot on a constant basis. A big slow bullet will also kill critters in a most satisfactory way. However a big fast bullet, again of proper construction, will kill critters ever better than the aforementioned choices. You ain't convincing me otherwise. That said how much dead do you want to inflict? I remember reading about a guy, whose name unfortunately escapes me at this moment, who killed all record class B & C N.A. trophies with a plain vanilla Rem M-700 7 mm Rem mag. He did borrow a .340 Wea for the big bears and I think a walrus. So who needs a super fast, flat shooting, extra loud, hard recoiling, long barreled, huge scoped, synthetic stocked (preferably with decent paint but vomit colored is acceptable), made of stainless steel, custom actioned with a Sako extractor, Jewell trigger, push or controlled feed (both work) and anything else we can dream up? A few of us gun nuts who have grown tired of shooting everyone else's favorite.When it gets down to the nut cuttin' all of them will work if the shooter can shoot.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

and some of you talking up the Barnes Bulet!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Excuse me Gentlemen, to say, too much gun and too small a bullet at too high a velocity and too dumb to take advice is really dumb to say. The fact is the shooter didn’t research the performance range of his projectile!It's not the weight per say,It's the construction of!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Saying that the 140 grain bullet was too small is really a oxymoron statement if you know your bullets. According to Nosler, Ballistic Tips are designed to function between a Minimum Impact Velocity: 1600 fps Maximum Impact Velocity: 3000 fps.I remember shooting 100 grain bullets out of my 300 Win Mag that was up around 3800 fps and the bullets blew up before hitting paper and hot loaded 130 grain Hornady‘s worked absolutely fantastic! Sounds to me that the 140-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips at nearly 3,600 fps has the wrong copper alloy jacket unable to withstand the friction/heat of the bore. A 140 grain is plenty heavy at that velocity and I’ll bet the 139 grain Hornady would have been a better choice. The 300 Win Mag I had, I loaded Hornady 130 grain with 79 grains of IMR4350, 77 grains was max at 3500fps so go figure with 79 grains. From Jackrabbits to New Mexico Mule Deer I never had a problem!!

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from Zermoid wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Comment on the muzzleloader references:A 50cal patched round ball with 95 grains of 3F under it WILL go clean thru a 4 inch dia and about 1/4 inch thick steel tube the forest service uses around here as a post to mount steel gates on closed roads. Clean 1/2 inch hole too! Needed to empty the rifle before going home and I really figured the soft lead ball should just splatter on the hard steel, WRONG!And these magnum crazy people think they need a modern magnum for penetration? Ever seen a steel plated deer?

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from mitch wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Great parable! Too much gun, too small a bullet at too high a velocity and too dumb to take advice. A 7mm Mauser with the right 140 grain bullet and he would have been a happy man.

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from retired waycar rider wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Hummmmmm seems to me that a gun writer by the name of Layne Simpson is the one that started the 7STW then went on to make 3 or 4 other STW's. Remember gun writers have to have to eat and get free perks too. right Dave ????

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from Ryan wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

P.S. This blog is amazing. It starts in a gun shop and ends with Steven Spielberg's genius as a filmmaker and Robert E. Lee's military tactics. Sort of like that game as a kid where we passed a phrase down the line and it kept morphing into something different. That's why I keep coming back.

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from Ryan wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I think the point David is trying to make here is that sometimes if you think ultra velocity and super tight groups are the most important thing, then you are mistaken. Target shooting and hunting are two different things. This guy would have been better off with his grandaddy's .30-06 or a .270 that shot 2.5" groups. I actually went down (in velocity) from a .270 to a 7mm-08 because 100% of my shots will be inside 200 yards and I can rarely even see farther than 50 yards where I hunt. I even sometimes take an iron sighted 45-70 handi-rifle or 30-30 as first choices. As far as bullets go, I have fun debating and researching about construction and tip construction etc. with the best of them, but nobody that I know ever b*tched about plain jane core-lokts or powerpoints or factory partitions.............

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from Visitor wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Choosing the right bullet for the job would have made a big difference. Partition all the way.

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from johnnydawson wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I had a 7 STW once, and I loaded it with 175 grain remmington core lokt bullets. Powder chosen was WC 860 machine gun powder, loaded to 100 percent load density. One hole groups. 28 inch barrel. I never measured the velocity, but I am sure it was well over 3300 feet per second. I shot a 200 pound pig, and the bullet barely went past the ribs. Took forever to find it, no blood trail. Now I use the .338 Win. Mag with 250 grain core lokt, deadly on pigs. No problem with the blood trail. So I agree with the moral of the story. How's that for staying on topic!

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from Mike Reeder wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I was intrigued by the ballistic tip when it first came out for a couple of reasons; one, it was one of the most ballistically efficient bullets I'd ever seen, and two, reports of its frangibility struck me as just what the doctor ordered for the relatively small whitetails in our area (the biggest-bodied buck you'd ever see where I lived weighed about 110 pounds. The average deer runs 65 to 80). Most of my hunting at that time was from a tree stand, with plenty of time to place a bullet perfectly. On most does, I would never shoot until I had a broadside shot with the off-leg positioned to avoid meat damage in the far shoulder. My load was basically the old Western load for the 7X57, with the 140gr. ballistic tip exiting the 22-inch barrel of my converted 98 Mauser at about 2,850 fps. It worked like a charm if you placed the shot right. Everything inside the chest cavity was soup but with little extraneous damage. Typical shot distances ranged from 25 out to at most about 125-yards. The brush and cedar was usually too thick to expect to shoot much beyond that, with the exception of one doe I shot at about 220 in a plowed field. It was also a great setup for deer hunting in more open country in southwest Texas, where the deer were also small but the distances tended to stretch out. I did shoot a couple of hogs with that same load with fairly spectacular results, but when actually hog hunting I usually went to more stoutly constructed 150 gr. handloads, or used 180 gr. Core-Lokt factory loads in my '06. Point being that certain bullets are good for certain things within a certain velocity range and not so much for others. The custom gun builder tried to tell Petzal's WH that obvious fact, but there are few mixtures more potent than arrogance and ignorance. My own view is that a ballistically efficent bullet in a suitable caliber, driven at anywhere from 2,700 fps up to about 3,200 fps., is plenty flat enough to take any big game animal at rational hunting distances. It's certainly not worth lugging around an awkward 28-inch (or 26 inch as far as I'm concerned) barreled rifle in order to shoot a wildcat caliber that delivers no real practical advantage in the field, while presenting all kinds of problems in terms of ammo availability, etc. All these arguments about caliber, velocity, etc. are fun and help pass the time, but as long as you are using any caliber within a remotely acceptable range for what you're shooting, what really counts is bullet placement, bullet performance and being wise enough about your own limitations and respectful enough of what you're hunting to wait for a decent shot to present itself.One other side note -- as much as I love and admire Marse Lee, no general ever committed greater folly than Picket's charge. If you've ever stood at the foot of that long incline looking up at where the Federals were entrenched, you can't avoid shuddering thinking about the men who tried to make that long, open climb.

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from NapoleanDynamite wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

With the exception of Steven Speilberg's creative genius and Lee's tactical genius, I don't think anyone would consider the men on eyeball's list to be 'genius' material. Usually it's not the smart ones that work their way to the top, it's the ones who know how coerce, lie, mis-direct, and scam their way to power. Usually those who are actually as sweet as they claim to be are the quite ones in the background doing whatever it is their good at. That's not to say there aren't obnoxious academics out there making asses of themselves, but to say history's biggest mistakes have been made by geniuses is way off.And with regards to Lee, the man really was as good as they say. At Gettysburg he was duped by a Union artillery officer who slowly cut down the rate of fire on his guns leading Lee to believe that his own arty assets had destroyed the Union's fire support capability. The only difference between audacity and recklessness is whether or not you win, and in this case a clever Union officer tricked Lee into making an audacious move that ultimately became a reckless endeavour.

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from Thos. B. Fowler wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I was with Mr.B's comments until he ridiculed Robt. E. Lee...sorry about that gaffe. Down in Virginia, we not only respect Marse Robert implicitly, but also our gunsmiths and their sage advice about rifles and loads. I have found the 140 gr. Sierra bullet ideal for Whitetails in my little Mannlicher Schoenauer 6.5.[BTW...Pickett's charge was mishandled by the arrogant Longstreet. Longstreet was sulking because the troops did not receive the .58 caliber Weatherby's for the attack. Little known fact, of course.]Tom Fowler

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from Carney wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I'd say the WH knew something = if he'd allowed that 2 extra inches on the barrel, the hyper velocity would then have caused the bullet to disentigrate into thin air and he wouldn't have even gotten the antlers!What would Layne Simpson do on such a Mule Deer hunt? Hmmm. Maybe instead of stalking closer, he'd stalk away to widen the gap?!?!?!Heck, we could start a whole new hunting movement for hyper velocity shooting with frangible bullets! Since I have so much experience already, I could write the book: "You Too Can Widen the Distance Between You and Your Quarry"!

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from KJ wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Dave,One of the most-argued advantages of hypervelocity hunting rounds is long-range killing power. You've hunted and killed more animals than most of us can hope to hunt. Do you have a ballpark figure of how many animals you have harvested that required shots beyond 200 yards?

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from Visitor wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I often wonder if when the bullet blows up on impact it a molten mas?

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from Visitor wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

rkk77Is Clay Cooper drunk? how so?? makes since to me!

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from Mike wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

A Lazzeroni would probably burn pizza. Fire spews out the muzzle. Surprised he hasn't named one of his rounds Dragon Breath.

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from semp wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Can you warm pizza with a Lazzaroni?

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from Thomas wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Now Dave doesn't it feel good to get that out in the open. You know what they say "Pride Goethe Before The Fall." Just Kidding.Tom the Troll

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from Chad Love wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Now damnit Eyeball, don't go ragging on "1941". The ten-year-old me thought it was a great movie. The 37-year-old me, well, not so much, but good taste is often an overrated thing...

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from rkk77 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Is Clay Cooper drunk?

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from eyeball wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

The problem with geniuses, Ph.ds, etc. is that they cannot believe that someone with thirty or forty fewer IQ points than they have can give them advice about anything. That is why most of the really obvious, boneheaded mistakes in history were made by geniuses.It takes a Caesar to trust a Brutus.It takes a Robert E. Lee to order a Pickett's Charge.It takes a Napoleon to attack Russia, then hang around Moscow until winter.It takes a Montague to plan and sell an Operation Market Garden.It takes a Churchill to plan a Gallipoli.It takes a Woodrow Wilson to champion a League of Nations in Europe without making sure the US Congress would ratify it if he did.Hey, it takes a Stephen Spielberg to make a "1941" and "Howard the Duck."I can go on forever. You smart guys out there, take heed.

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from Mr. B wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Do you know what the difference between Genius and stupidity?Genius has it's limitations. Case in point WH vs WCGB.I was told a long time ago that if you are paying good money for a rifle then the gunsmith will not take you down the wrong road. Trust him with your rifle project if you don't then find one you do....

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from Gritz wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

As for velocity, even some commercial loads for 7mm are quite over the top. In Wisconsin, where I hunt, there is rarely a shot over 75 yards. Most shots are within bow range. I'm talking about thick, surprise the hell out of you, blasting. My uncle and brother insist on using their 7mm mags because "they're fast!" Well, I don't know much about it but under 50 yards there isn't much dodging of a 30-30. You could probably use a rock if you practiced enough. Anyways, last year my uncle shot one of those overgrown corn gobblers with his big, super accurate, hole puncher and the thing literally e x p l o a d e d. I mean an exit wound that you could put your arm in. When you are hunting brushy rabbit holes for medium-sized deer you need a brush gun, not a super duper heat seakin, long range weapon of destruction. I have just begun to hunt with a .50 muzzleloader. I love it. all of the adds push the idea of "magnum power" and lead you to believe that to get ultimate performance you need 150 grains so you can shoot through stuff at 200 yards. I have yet to load it over 100 grains. The bullets I use don't need to go that hard to kill what I am shooting at and the bullets actually perform (hold together) much better at lower thresholds. When in doubt, I've learned that slow and heavy bullets under 75 yards will always work better than light and fast.But to each his own as long as it works for you. And if you are out there hunting then it must be working.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

names have been changed to protect the silly?I LOVE IT!I find it interesting that using a Nosler Ballistic Tip and if my memory serves me right is a solid base bullet. Two things have not been mentioned. First was shot placement? And second even solid base does allot plowing witch points back to shot placement?! I was getting complete pass thru on mule deer with Nosler Solid Base 55 grain out of my 22-250 with excellent performance with good clean kills.I’m willing to bet that rifle kick like a truck load of mules and the flinch factor was off the scale!When I was stationed at Holloman AFB that borders White Sands Missile Range the home of imported African Ibex, I’ve heard a lot of stories of bullets blowing up and not even penetrating past the ribs.Speaking of White Sands Missile Range, Wildlife Officials and Law Enforcement could not figure what was killing the Mountain Lions (Cougars). They had bullet holes but could not find the bullet. One day one of the Game Biologists spotted a young Ibex running with a small Mountain Lion still shishkebabbed on its horns. Case Closed!By the way, I knew a clown in Alaska using a 375 H&H with Nosler Partitions wounded a nice Caribou double shovel that ran off Taylor Mountain never to be seen again and dropped 3 cows with one shot! That idiot lucked out by bringing out all the meat and because he did not punch his harvest ticket because a kill is a kill only received only a 100 dollar fine and suspended license for the remainder of the season. But WAIT! That idiot wanted me to take him north of the Yukon River were your allowed 5 caribou and shoot a Caribou or two on my license with my gun, NOT NO BUT HELL NO and not going to be in my truck either!

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from Tennessee Hunter Guy wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I certainly agree

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Ten Hunter Guy,What's going to matter is US going to the polls. Lets get out and ensure our sportsmen friends vote.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Shaky,You mentioned Roy W. briefly. He built a fantastic rifle no doubt but I'll tell ya as a promoter of his product, PT Barnum had nothing on that man. Roy is the guy that made all shooters think faster is better. Years ago (early 50's) I read an article from him promoting his rifle to the hollywood set, and his 'actual' claim about how fantastic velocity was(his rifles), is that you would never actually have to hit the animal. The speed (velocity) of the near miss would kill them!

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from Tennessee Hunter Guy wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

This is entirely off topic but i feel it needs to be said. If anyone thats reads this blog gets the NRA magazine American Rifleman please tear out the card inside telling about Barrack Obamas atrocious gun, make as many copies as you can afford. Distribut them to eveyone u know that might possibly be casting their ballot for Barrack Obama. We must perserve our right to keep and bear arms!

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from Mark-1 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I had to look up "phrenology" too, Doc.fps=can be too much of a good thing.I've never been keen on l-o-n-g range shooting in hunting situations. It doesn't take an expert sneak to close the range to 250-yards although a hunter may have to work at it.

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from Shaky wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I am not opposed to the magnum rifles/cartridges produced today or in the past. I have experienced several of them myself, and don't think that most of them are the best for me,personally. I do have, and shoot, regularly, a .338 Win.mag.,but when I prepare to go hunting, 85% of the time I will take the 25/06, 10% the 30/06,and 5% the .338. With all due respect to Roy Weatherby, his touting of the hyper velosity/hydraulic shock, freebore design,etc, though selling many rifles, has produced a generation of hunters who believe you have to have the very biggest, loudest, kickingest smoke pole available in order to be taken seriously as a hunter.And actually, for 90% of my own deer and elk hunting, my old 94 in 30/30 would be adaquate for the task, I just happen to shoot the others better, because I don't see so well and don't have, or want a scope on that old warhorse. This is not to condemn those of you who do regularly hunt with the big ones, but the truth is that the short fats are simply duplications of old and tried rounds that have been around for a lifetime. I don't need an excuse to buy a new firearm, except that I want it, but I don't buy the hype/hoopla that the arms companies spread in order to sell a new rifle. Shoot whatever you like, hunt whatever style works for you, life is too short to be unhappy on someone elses values, even mine.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I had to look up phrenology so I know nobody knows what the crap it is... Dave is messing with our minds. The bumps in your skull pre-determine your personality. They may fall on their face but at least they're out there trying.The WH, WCGB and STW are all to blame. FPS is highly overrated and in fact can become a detriment at close range. Hunting has evolved from bragging about getting close was to bragging about hitting from far away. Are we going backwards?

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from Andrew wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

There are plenty of fools at every income level who think they know everything about everything. But there is certainly something to the know-it-all businessman sterotype. Outfitters seem shocked and then are usually super helpful when I say "What do you think is best for an average shooter" No doubt every other guy who want into their shop in a suit is crack shot / master hunter / navy seal / gunsmith who can take the kick from a cannon with on arm.Manufactures get people to buy new bows every year and "magnum" cartridges that no one needs by touting FPS- it sure seems to work.

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from docbill wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

This same know it all shooter probably would put plastic boobs on a perfectly serviceable 25 year old mistress too. Sort of mine is bigger than yours.

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from Mike wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I have had my share of cannons - including a Lazzeroni Warbird and Firebird and three .454 Casulls. Loved to shoot them and I don't blame anyone for wanting one. (I always wished Lazz made a .35 caliber, though that might be borderline masochistic. He could just call it "Thumper.") These guns had their places, and I never considered their purchase a mistake. That said, recent whitetail I have taken were with a .270Win Failsafe, a .50 cal swaged round ball, and a 100gr fixed broadhead. Each was under a different hunting situation. Each worked just fine.Some of us, me included at times, especially when I was a know-it-all teenager or when no one knowledgeable was around to show me the ropes, just have to be humbled before the light bulb clicks on and we seek out someone we respect with more experience. Hopefully, the light bulb went on for WH.It is so important to reach out to others, not just youngsters, to patiently introduce them to hunting, shooting, reloading, and the "stuff" (a big thank you to the good gun writers and Hunter Safety and NRA trainers). But some of us can be so opinionated, arrogant, and self-righteous that the neos turn away. There's one gun writer out there whose articles even I won't read, and others whom I turn off as soon as they open their mouths ... and I haven't been a teenager in decades! Frustrating, because they have some good information.Some responsible and educated experimentation is fine. But if WH was turned onto the 7mm STW Ballistic Tip by another shooter then that person also has to take some responsibility and help set him right.

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from wgp wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I too had a Ballistic Tip blow up, and though I did find the deer I have stayed with Partitions since then (I am aware that there are newer things but these work so well). I have never bought a Magnum caliber rifle -- I have been well-served by the .30-06, .308 and a pleasant little .257 Roberts. I did fall for the too-powerful scope disease once, but got over it.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Yeah, yeah, yeah... been there done that one myself. .257 Wby Mag from 30 yards and Nosler Ballistic Tips pretty much explode on impact. Found all my deer except for one that another fellow shot about 150 yards away. Just found the blood trail and gut pile for that one.Like a friend told me water-skiing one time "if you're not falling you're not learning". From then on I would venture out past the wake and experiment and not worry about others laughing when I did a face dive in the water. Pretty much applies to everything.

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from Beekeeper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

If he had only swithced to the 140 Accubond the story would be much different...Arrogance is arrogance no mater the finacial standing or lack there of...There is a guy here in my town who killed a huge 10 point (5X5) whitetail 7 or 8 years back. Heavy beams tremendous tine lenght, spread, the whole package! Had it in of the pickup truck with the tail gate down going around town bragging about how he did this and did that to bring the old boy to bag. Came by my office for a few minutes (I enjoyed seeing the buck not him) and left. Continued on with his bragging and some where along the way he took off too quickly from a stop sign and the buck slid out. The deer hasn't been seen since. The big guy upstairs has a great way of making those who are less than appreciative pay...

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I will make one more statement here.If you prefer/want a magnum rifle, shoot-heck-fuzzy-fire, go for it! I don't care. Just don't chide me because I want my deer dead and not destroyed!Bubba

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Good day all.I don't know that this is a "sorrowful" tale. At one point in my young life, I felt that "velocity" was the "answer"! After developing a load for a 90 gr. HP for my .270 Win, I proceeded into the woods to lay low the might white tail. I did indeed lay several of the mighty bretheren low, watching feet flip over in my 9x Vari X-I Leap-a-long scope, marveling at the death and destruction rendered there unto. No/little recoil. Immediate knowledge of the animals demise/escape!After dressing several of these half destroyed carcasses, (blood shot meat from last rib to ears!) I began rethinking my approach. (Hey, the bullet expended all it's energy INSIDE the target animal! WOW!)NOW, I shoot a standard Sierra 130 gr SPBT at near factory velocities. The deer may run for a short distance after the shot, BUT(!), they are just as dead. I deal with just a bit more recoil, don't see flipping feet in my scope and always have less blood shot meat, which is my main objective!HELLO!, standard velocities!!!BOO on magnum rifles!Bubba

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from crm3006 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Sounds like the WH and the WCGB were both dumber than a flat rock.A .30-'06 will kill anything on the North American continent just as dead at viable shooting ranges as what ever that super-duper whooper the WH just had to have, and probably has killed a lot more of it, whatever IT is!!

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from SilverArrow wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Pity that wisdom, earned at such a high cost, is not respected compared to popular theories spawned from cheap talk! Hopefully the WH in this tale of woe has taken up golf or polo or some other diddle and left hunting to those who respect the animals enough to learn to listen to truly wise and experienced voices!SA

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from Zermoid wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

And BTW I take exception to the "the only thing a 28-inch barrel is good for is pole vaulting." part, I have a Swede Mauser which even with taking the last 4 inches off of the barrel it still is longer than any scoped rifle case I ever saw. It gets packed into a shotgun case for going hunting, I also carry a 44 mag for brush use where I can't swing the "cannon" as my kids call it.

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from Zermoid wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Stupidity comes in all classes and ethnic groups, it's not limited to the wealthy.

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from jes wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

And yeah, I posted that.

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from Visitor wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Not really a sorrowful tale of high velocity, is it? But an all too common problem of a bad bullet for the job! It's a good thing to know, though, since looking back on the early days of the .220 swift, and the bad damage they caused before better bullets came out, it was the same old story...either people couldn't figure out what happened when a bullet encountered flesh and bone...or they didn't want to know! Caused a lot of wasted venison, and undue suffering on the animals part, as well....Too bad they didn't have something big like a buff or elephant coming at them, then they would have a reason to know a little more about "internal ballistics"...(or not ever have to think again...EVER)

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 32 weeks ago

I got a Custom built 30-06 on a Mauser Action. Made in Germany. Is a Beaut. not scoped and do not plan to as want orig. My problem is it shoot too high at l00 yds. The rear sights are 3 leaf fold downds with a slide in the solid rib on top of bbl and the sight is a blade type, held in place by a screw. What do I need to do to get this rifle to shoot lower ( on target) at 100 yds, raise or lower the rear sight? I;ve lowerd the rear sight as lw s it will fold down, what tions are left for me? Do I have the Gun Smith make a taller front sight???? Any suggestions appreciated. I cannot lower the rear sight any lower as all the leafs ae layin flat on top of the rib which runs from the breech to the muzzle.Rib is about l/4" square. I can;t believe it left the builder shooting as high as it does now. It's a good 12" high at l00 yds. Rifle hasa a dble set rigger with a 12 oz pull,very touchie indead, not a great hunting rifle with that light a trigger. PS; Love my new MArlin XL7 in 270. First syn stocked gun I;ve seen that the stock really fied the metal as it should. Lks as if the stock ws hand tooled for the metal. Any you guys tried Bshnells Dusk to Dawn scope witth 6" eye relief with eye focus on the eye end? It has a 4 power when adjusting for focus and urned up to 10 x can see the animal as if was in your lap. Not a high dollar scope but pratical and clarity is equal to som high dollar scopes I have. This is my 4 wheeler/pickup gun for deer and Cyotes. he Rem 700 in 06 or 25-0 are my hunting guns herer and out west.Do use the 336 in 30-30 for woods hunting here un-scoped. All advice appreciated. SA i;m73 and yet lots to ler about guns, ammo,scopes and bullets. But do like the Scricco's for long range shoting. With a Boattail and plymar tip the bullet flies straight/flat with little drop out to 350 yds, zeroed for 200 yds.You younger guys ca have the magmums, I only weigh l28 lbs and can;t handle them. The 06 with weight to near l0 lbs is just rigth for me,. Thought about reducing the triger pull, but the 6 animals I've killed with it even ou to 345 yds, the pulll gave me no problem. As old saying goes, if ain't broke do try to fix. THe old Southern Gunslinger

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 32 weeks ago

For many years we didnot haveW-tails where I lived. We had to drive south 300 miles to the flatland to hunt. They only allowed shotguns and BuckShot to hunt with. Some years later we didget Deer in our area and being in the Mtns, any gun was legal. For several years I used a 30-30, then a 30-06, loaded with plain Jane Core-lokts. I continued to use that type bullet until I had a oportunity to go to the Rockies. After talking with the guys in Colorado they suggested a tad different round. I bought some Remington l68 gr Extended range in 06 for several trips and had great success. The Rem started this WAR of FPS and deleted teh extended range round. A few years back Rem came out with the Scricco;s Bonded in l50 and l80 gr bullets. My hunting Elk and Deerout ther I chose the l80 grs. The past 3-4 yrs I've killed many animals in the Rockies using this round adn to this day not recovered a bullet. 2 ys ago I killed a Lope in Wy at 325 yrs and a Deer at 345 yds all l shot and fell in their tracts. Then this past year here at home I shot a large w-tail at 270 yds,the bullet entered the right shoulder about l/2 way up,continued thr his lungs and thru the left shoulder. Both holes about size of Dime. This lst year that 270 yrd shot, the Deer was standing broadsided to me near scrub pines and a 5 ft wire fence. That deer jumped the fence, ran 70-8o- yds and piled up,with blood ozzing out both holes , mouth, nose, etc. With both front legs broken, lungs gone,I cannot how he ran so far. Lke most hunters I prefer the bullet to go thru the animal, as you got 2 bleed holes for tracking. Many want a bullet to stay midway thru and do the damage inside, suppose its ok, but I feel different. All I ask for is a makeable shot and put the bullet in the correct spot. Yes, I tried the Mag. jobs andafter a clip full shot thru the gun, traded it back for another 30-06. This year i will tae my 30-06 and a 270 to the Rockies and use teh 30-06 to begin with.If get the Elk first,then will switch to the 270 for Deer. For Lopes in Wy,the 700 25-06 with Winchester ll7 gr Ballastic tips will get your Lope and damage lots of meat.I do prefer a quick kill as do not care to watch a animal to try getting up. Pratice and pratice never hurt any hunter, as where I live, litle other than W-tails and a few Coyotes is about all we got to hunt.Hopefuly in N.C. we gonna get a longer season in 2009.Was at a gun show yesterday,ammo and firearms have increased by about 20% in a year and even more on some Ammo. So better stock up on Ammo. At 73 I think I got enough, but just to be safe gonna buy a few more boxes before I head to the Rockies in late Oct. Back to bullets, I love the polymar tips on bullets now, will surely open up a good trail and will penetratr bone as well. Shoot-um-straight and often. The Old Gunslinger down south.At my age, few trips westward left, so gonna make the best of this trip in Oct. Being disabled/handicapped, I'm lucky to even hunt here in my back door, but I love the Rockies and smell of sage and beautiful fall colors. If you never been, go. Can always pay later. You don;t need a cannon to hunt out there, 30-06 is ample, other than for the big old Bears. Jack OcConnor thought the 270 ample, but I don;t agree l00%, depends on animal, where hit and distance away. I bet if truth be known, he now and then slipped in a 06 or 300 win mag on some hunts. My 06's all weigh about 10 lbs and have little recoil, about like a 243.Good luck to you hunters this fall, hopefuly we will fill our tags, and I know will have a enjoyable outing at 10-12K feet, The Screenry is out of this world. Take lots of film if your first trip. I always got a disposble camera in my day-pack.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 33 weeks ago

Just purchase a 700 CDL in 06 and a CDl in 25-06 wil be the only two guns you will ever need in the lower 48. If the Beautiful Walnut is not you cup of tea, then go with the Syn stock. The new Marlin XL7 is a very nice gun, love my 270 for log shots that the 25-06 is a tad light on. Stick with the l50 gr on teh 270 and you on,even for Elk. Plan to try both this Oct. in the Bitteroots. With teh prices of ravel, hunting, this will be my lst trip west unless a rich uncle leaves me a ton. Cost are up about 40% from 2 ys ago. So I plan to make the most of this trip, then just hunt here in the deep south as long as possible. Has ben a great ride, sadly time slips by. So if you plan on a trip SOMETIME, best you do it. After becoming disabledi l990, figured my huns were over, but the man above made a excetion for me and allow me to take the game I wanted out west. Now I will just try to improve and enjoy one final view of the country from up about 12K feet. Shoot often and straight. Once zeroed to your liking,leave be till your hunt is over. I do take a test shot once I land in MT just to make sure the baggage handlers forgot to drop my gun down at 40K feet.Appears they try their best to ruin what is inclosed in that new gun case, Luggage is costing a ton this year, but how you gonna get it there,? UPS, Fed X higher and no guarantee's on either way. O for a safe, successful trip and vist long ago made new friends in the Rockies. Take care guys, after Nov. we may not own any guns, so best you hunt hard in 2008.

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from Lone Star 45 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Del in KSIf they don't make it illegal by then. Just remember a big bag of M&M's and Mountain Due before sending them home.Called, PAY BACK!

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Dr Ralph,It don't get much better after college. My kids finished college 7 years ago. Now it's buy buy buy for the weddings, and grand children and trips for visits. Heck I just had to buy 3 tickets to London for my son's wedding. Daughter is due with first G-child next month.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I shot 100 rounds last weekend Clay. Two boxes of the cheapest of the cheap FMJ American Eagle .40 S&W's $16.99 a box. Two years ago I was buying Winchester hollow points for half that... bricks of .22's aren't even cheap now. Used to pay $8.99 at Bass Pro for the Rem Golden bullets now they're $19.99!!! Shooting a lot less now I have to admit but really because gas, food, and everything else has gone up and I'm buying it all for five people with two in college. In five years I should be on easy street with the kids gone and the house paid off. Probably die about that time with my luck...

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Just got off the phone with Gary atReeder Custom Guns2601 E. 7th Ave.Flagstaff, AZ 86004Going to take my 357 Blackhawk 9mm cylinder and rechamber it to 356 GNR! Gary said it will have the power of a 41 magnum and if I had the old model Ruger I would have to watch my loads. $150.00 for rechambering and $90.00 for the dies. I can live with that!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Hey Ralphy!If you shot 100 rounds every weekend like me, you would! LOL!!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

JnorrisPraise God your back, NO JOKE!

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from JNorris wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Back at the computer, no hard feelings toward Mr. Cooper or anybody.I enjoy this blog too much to get ran off by anything or anyone.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I don't know why everyone's complaining about the price of Weatherby ammo. I can still get the plain jane round noses for $34.99 a box and they're covered in dust because no one else buys them... last box of Federal 30-06's I bought were over $30.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I have a 9mm cylinder for my Ruger 357 mag and thinking of modifying it to357 Bain and Davis

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

EdIs this part of getting old?

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from Ed J wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

ClayI have also been known to open mouth- insert foot.JNorrisKeep on reading, but be careful you might learn something about human nature. We enjoy misunderstanding each other.

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from Ed J wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Edward J PalumboThat reminds me of what a freind of mine did many years ago.Bill had an old Krag Jorgenson in 30/40. He cast some bullets for it and hand loaded them. Only problem was they couldn't hit the target until he got within about 20 yds. The holes were just ragged tears with brown edges. He quit and went home. couple of days later some of us were visiting him and he showed us his targets, and the bullets and powder he was using. You know you don't use the data for IMR4831 when you have IMR4198. He lived to the ripe old age of 83.

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from Edward J. Palumbo wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Dave's "Sorrowful Tale" reminds me of a WH who blew the cylinder on his Ruger .44 Magnum Super Blackhawk and asked gunsmith John Dewey of Millerton, NY, to make another cylinder of stainless steel. John told him he was able to do it, but it would take a while and would be significantly more expensive than a replacement cylinder from Ruger. The WH accepted the cost without hesitation, and John made the cylinder.Some time after John completed it, the WH arrived at John's home & shop and told John that the stainless cylinder had blown. John was very skeptical and asked the WH, "What load are you using?" WH cited from memory a max load of Unique with a 240-grain jacketed bullet. John shook his head, "Stiff load, but it shouldn't have ruptured the cylinder." Reaching for a can of Unique, John pensively drew on his pipe and asked, "So-o-o, you used this powder and it blew the cylinder?" The WH shook his head, "No, not that powder," he pointed to another can on the bench and corrected, "that one." John reached for the can of Bullseye to which the fellow had pointed and asked again, "You used THIS powder?" Yes, the WH recognized it by the color of the can. John shook his head, "Well, no wonder you blew the cylinder! Even the Ruger's not built to take that kind of pressure!" John explained that Bullseye had a different burning rate and higher peak pressure than the same amount of Unique.John passed away a few years later at age 56, but that topic (color-coded powder cans) came up from time to time. It pays to consult the wise gunsmith, a good reloading manual and/or other reliable references before courting serious disappointment.

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Dr Ralph,You might try giving that dog a pigskin chew once a day. They come in large packs that are cheap at Wally world. Worked for my pup.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Ed JLS45 is telling off on me!75 vmax?That’s even nastier!!YUCK!Ed, I hope I didn’t run JNorris off?After I found out what he was getting at, I feel bad about it.

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from Ed J wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

ClayTry the Hornady 75 vmax in your 25-06. Make sure the skunk is at least 150yds out. Yup did that.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

LS45Sure vaporized that critter!I remember pieces parts flying and hair and moister floating in the air all around us.O’brother was that a mistake!Shooting a skunk walking away at 40 yards upwind with a 52 grain hollow point in a 22-250 is not the thing to do! I thought I never get that smell out of my hair, skin and sinus!

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from Lone Star 45 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Clay have you shot anymore skunks with your 22-250?UPWIND!!

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from Lone Star 45 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

JNorris, Do not be afraid to offer suggestions !!!!!!!Clay isn't as harsh as it looks.Just misunder stood you!I know this cranky Crusty O'NCO for many years!!!!!Take it EEZZZYYY Clay!!!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I will agree to hear more about this line of ammunition and it would be great for deer too!...My problem is, I like to shoot a lot and the velocities will be less with the Barnes that probably change the point of impact.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

JNorrisYou have my humble apology Sir!Sorry if I came at ya!Tell your Ar Tender, the nxt glass is on me!! :)

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

JNorrisYou may be right about the wind sure blows around here..but your ideas really suck! Why they suck? You’re not able to backup what you say!!!Joseph doesn’t have deep pockets and neither do I. Therefore I use what is best at hand and find it to be the best choice. It’s funny in High Power Competition while everyone else used Sierras and Berger’s costing more money, I used Hornady Match bullets. Everyone wanted to know is why am I kicking butt with an old warn out M1 Garand so they tried my Hornady loads and said they were more accurate and had to drop several clicks especially on 600 and 1000 yard line because there flatter shooting and they are cheaper too! And when I upgraded to build a Ultra match M1A... WOW!Go ahead and follow the crowd JNorris, while I enjoy greater things!“Greatness is never appreciated in youth, called pride in midlife, dismissed in old age, and reconsidered in death. Because we cannot tolerate greatness in our midst, we do all we can do destroy it.”-J. Michael Straczinski, creator and arc writer of Babylon 5, from production #309, episode #53, “Point of No Return,” spoken by Lady Morella, the prophetess widow of Centauri Emperor Touranne

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from JNorris wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Clay Cooper,Thats why I am not afraid to offer suggestions or advice even at the risk of getting ridiculed by fellow bloggers. My advice is not far off, although, I agree with you that an antelope is not difficult to put down with a well place shot. I also suggested the barnes because I would like to hear more about it and it would be great for deer etc...

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Most of all, being alone on a mountain ridge, setting on a giant rock overlooking the endless landscape where perhaps no man ever walked.To watch a snow flurry on a far mountain ridge and feel the Lord setting next to me enjoying what God has made.I may have come home empty handed,but my mind is full of awesome memoriesit is a experience, I'll never forget!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

JNorris-Alan Ashley-Pitt said it best“The man who follows the crowd will usually get no further than the crowd. The man who walks alone is likely to find himself in places no one has ever been.”

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from JNorris wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Like I said the wind sure blows around here..

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Whats the deal with Moose loads on dear with some of you guys!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

JNorris, are you hunting as Lone Star 45 will put it, a radioactive zone with freak Antelope we don’t know about in Wyoming that would explain the use of Barnes bullets? LMOA!JosephI haven’t priced Federal 110’s, but I bet they are proud of them. You don’t need a heavy constructed bullet like Barnes on antelope! Your shots will be likely 200 or less and over 300 is a rarity but be prepared. Because you can get away with using cheaper ammo on lopes you can get more trigger time on Jacks and yodel dogs etc to hone in your skills like I have. By the way, a lot of times Antelope will lie down until you’re almost on top of them before busting like a covey of quail! If it’s been very dry water holes are may be good to watch if there are plenty of fresh tracks. But I found running fence lines to find busted wire with fresh tracks and watching for them crossing over. Then setting up downwind preferably with the sun at your back is best with a low profile blind or tan colored canvas the color of the grass is a good choice. Remember, there sight is better than Dave’s Zeiss Victory 8x32 T* FL binoculars!Joseph, the key to busting an Antelope is not with a “NUKE STRIKE” but with a well place shot!! Something else I almost forgot. Make sure the horns are well above the ears. I’ve know too many does mistaken for bucks because of this.

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from Yohan wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Hey Ralph ,.. nahh too ornery to get snatched up,..had dream the other nigh tho about the night I spent in the woods yeasr ago after compas got reversd from ore depoits ,..Some night that was ,..Jeeze that was spookyBeen busy,... trying not to go broke with all the right wing ripoff artits in power. Figured when I heard a few month ago ,.. when questioned as to the present retail price of a gallon of gas our boy Bushy didn know ,. time to get a little defensive as to positions,. stil getting a$$ kicked in bank stock thoNice looing pooch ,Ralph Really !!As I am partial to metric calibrrs so am I partial to Chesapeaks ,..But somehting about a lab puppy especially a blond lab puppy tugs at my heart strings ,.. Its gonna be a great fall for you Sure you will enjoy her a great deal,..congrats.As to the 257 or anything close I dont care how fast you shoot it just use "enough bullet" so you dont do the animal wrong.you know what I mean Im sure.Joseph:as much as I have in the past cranked on poor ole clay Cooper,. aside from being one of the most opinionated humans I have ever encountered he dos not speak withe forked tounge.You can't go far wrong with his advise.I'll be watchin boys

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from JNorris wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Joseph,I live in eastern Wy, the wind blows almost asmuch as it does on this blog. Main thing is if you can get to a range that has 300 yard capability. Practice at that range, that way your ready for about anything. Out of twenty years, I have only shot two antelope that were over 200 yards away. You might want to try the new federal 110gr barnes loads if you want fast then you can report back to this blog on how they performed.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

and yes Joseph the 100 will work fine. I would use a 130 or 140 boat tail for the crosswind but if your comfortable with the 100's go for it dude!AND GOOD LUCK!

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from Visitor wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

overkill, overspeed, overclocked, overdone. all means the same thing...too much is not always better.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

JosephCongratulations on the Antelope hunt!Antelope are one of the easiest to take down animals I know of and a 22-250 with a 55 grain works great. Remember Joseph, you’re hunting in open country which is prone to high gusty crosswinds and bullet drift is something to think about. You will have to time your shots with the wind at its minimum or lull to take that shot. Carry extra ammo and if you get there the day before or have time, start at the farthest range you know you can hit and when the good hardy crosswind take a few shots to see how much drift you get to compensate, be sure not to over compensate. You’ll also have difficulty in judging distances because you will not have trees etc. A hunter’s moon on the horizon looks monstrous and then shrinks and looks very small directly overhead. If you measured the diameter at the horizon and directly overhead, you will find the moon is the same diameter!Gotta run!

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Dr. R,Give that dog a softball (I,m not joking, they love them) and let her know it and it only is to be chewed on. Worked like a charm for me, although labs may be more hard headed.

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from Joseph wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

OK, you guys who know so much. I normally take my shots at 200 yds or less with a Wby Vanguard .270 Win. But I was drawn for an antelope hunt and the landowner says 300+ yds is not unusual. So I'm going with 100 gr. Rem pointed soft point. Am I going to be OK if I get surprised with a 50 yd shot with 3000 fps?

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I thought one of those big winged things got you in the Wisconsin woods Yohoho. Ed J says why the .257 Weatherby Mag Ralphy? I'll tell you why. Ol' Roy killed every animal on the planet with one about sixty-five years ago, and I figured if it was good enough for him... Of course that was the good old days when bullets were just bullets and not so specific as to usage. Probably from what I read we were better off with just core-lokts and those Winchester soft points K-mart always had a pallet of for $8.88. Now you actually have to know what you're doing. Plus I'm a gun nut too and one of my buddies has been using a plastic Wally Weatherby in .270 forever and it puts those holes in the paper closer than most people can shoot so when they came out with one for $399 (and that is what I paid) that shoots 3800+ fps guess who was ordering one right away?Got a picture of the new dog punch my name. Poor quality cell phone picture but whatever. It's a girl and it's yellow but at least my wife got the Lab part right. Training is going well. She (Blondie) now has me out of bed by 6:30 every morning so she can do her business. Chewed up three pair of shoes, one cell phone charger and a lamp so far.

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from Yohan wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Yaw yawDat last one yust a little spoof on dat Clay Coper Thomas Paine ( in da,.. ) fella or fellas .

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from Yohan wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Lordgrant me serenity toaccept the thingsI cannot changeThe courage to change for the better the things that I canand the wizdomTo hide the bodies of the peopleI had to kill because they pissed me off .Yohan da yohan

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from Yohan wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Told ya ,. and here ve go again some more ,..7mm ,..160 gr pill at something less than 3000 fps muzle is most stable most powder eficiant , has most retained velocity and down range energy of any sub hyper velocity smoke pole out there.That weight in standard bullet starting out at 2950 fps dosentblow up and will puch through a whole lot of meet and bone upclose and personal if you need it. 9 so will turdy oh six and 8mm properly loaded.But I still maintain after 40 some years,..over 110 whitetails now and counting ,.. turdy cal and less 160-165 gr spitzer sp at2600-2700 fps is all you need out to 300 yds,.. if you practice.Problem there is most guys in the field think 300 yds is about 1/2 a mile. Or the reverse 350 yd is 150,.. have seen it all my life.Like dat Cooper fella says ,. not da indian ya know ,. istda ooops ,..odder waynot da arrow it da Indian Ya?So they need or think they do,..a rifle that shoots salt pills in a straight line for 1/2 a mile ,. which leads to trouble when da big deer or da moose shows up close enough to hit with a regulation baseball yuk yuk ,..

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

“I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.”-- Thomas Paine

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from Lone Star 45 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I’m willing to bet WCGB shot thru something before hitting the deer or is just a lousy shot!

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from Lone Star 45 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Nosler 160 (Moose Load) in a 7mm STW for deer?Can you say, “NUKE STRIKE!”120 grain Barnes will work just fine!Are you guys hunting in a Nuclear Experimental range in Nevada or New Mexico on some genetically altered freak deer?If you must use a bullet of such weight for deer, perhaps you need shooting lessons!!

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from GuyM wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

The 7mm STW is a fine round at any reasonable range. Any rifle will perform poorly with a bad bullet choices and anybody whose ever pulled a trigger should know that. The guy got what he deserved by not listening to the bullet advice he was given. The mule deer was done a great disservice! Nosler 160 grain partitions or accubonds in my STW get the job done fine.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Federal, who seems to occupy the middle ground in 7mm STW factory loads, claims a MV of 3330 fps and muzzle energy of 3435 ft. lbs. with a 140 grain Trophy Bonded bullet (SD .248). The 200 yard figures are 2850 fps and 2520 ft. lbs. This is probably the best bullet weight for medium size big game animals.

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from Yohan wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Yaw Yaw ,.. mostly I yust like to sit and listen,..But,.. I am yust compelled ( which means I feel I should) say to all da guys here .I been playin around at dis here hunting ting quite a while now,..Yet I cant claim expertise odder dan dat gained by experiance ,..Did however manage to punched da ticket on a fair number of da deer over day yeers . (But no bears kinda like bears) and I been cipherin,.. ya know .And by golly if my cipherin isnt goin on now about fourty yeers .Finally a few yeers ago I com to a conclusion.Dat for any ting dat dont bite back or maybe black bear.If you shoot a bullet (turdy caliber and less) dat weighs 160gr which means it gonna have da good sectonal desity at da speed of 2600 fps ,..Unless your shootn em in da feet or da tail or da belly ,. you will kill dead right now,.. any ting in nort Amrica ,.. well maybe not da susquatch ,.. but dont run into many of dem unless in da tavrn Ya?Uffdah !!! dat oughta get da natives restless YUK YUK

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Sorry the last sentence should have stated "shot" not "shoot", its late and I didn't proof read.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Remember the old days when the only chronographs were of limited availibility at shooting clubs or belonged to some well heeled shooter? Since Chrony, ProChrono, and other makes and models have hit the market fitting the working class man's wallet ballistics suddenly changed. Amazing how much slower many rounds, magnum and non-magnum, immediately became. However I am surprised by the fact that some of my rounds like the .17 Rem, the big long barreled 7 mm, and the .25-'06 proved to be as fast or faster than when we only had paper charts to believe. Just an observation that probably most of you have also noticed.One other point generally speaking the farther you are from home the longer the shoot that got your deer or elk becomes when you once again reach home.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

IshawooaAfter these magnuts toy with and get the crap kicked out them long enough will find there is no true pleasure in it. Then and only then they come to their senses and will realize to look at cartridges of the 06 family or find another comfortable round to shoot!!!What’s wrong with a 257 Weatherby besides paying for ammo that is overpriced!Besides, If you can afford to feed it?Go for it!

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

A .257 WBY is a good one BUT most folks can get what they want from a .25-'06 for less money and boom. I was thinking about quarter inch caliber shooters I know and can immediately come up with at least 5 more who shoot this round by sheer preference besides old Sam. All are seasoned hunters and sportsmen except for one who is the son of one of the old guys. Even the kid loves the antique .25-'06. I guess now we will argue that the .257 WBY is older then the .25-'06 Rem. Legitamately yes in reality no, just as Mr. Neidner.

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from Ed J wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Dr RalphBuy experience?so why did you buy a 257 WBY?Its only like 50 yrs.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Ishawooa, Jim in Mo and DR RalphO’You guys are so right! I got a Black Rifle, 22-250, 25-06, 308, three 30-06’s, a cannon and even had a 300 Win mag at one time. Shot more deer with my 22-250 than all the rifles combined. Interesting thing though? After all the years of getting smacked around by the 300, one of the guys that I hunted with really thought to shoot like I do needed my 300. He drooled over it so bad I sold that powder hog to him and bought a 25-06 and never ever looked back! That Jackass couldn’t hit the ground with both feet with it. The real story boils down to this. What a person lacks in skill they try to make it up in fire power resulting in serious adverse affects and besides, the customer is always right!!!! Sooner or later, some little guy like my Grandson Alex is going clean your clock shooting a 25-06! When I was 12, I held my own with a 03-A3 30-06 with Hornady 130 grain against the adults cleaning their clocks while they shot there mags!!! I got a story about a Elk hunt when I was 13 I’ll tell ya’guys later!

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from Michael wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Some people have more money than common sense. Like paying $14,000 for a guaranteed 35 inch mule deer. You wouldn't do that would you, Dave?

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph I understand what you are saying and agree to a point. The other side of the coin reveals that some folks must have the newest, latest, greatest infuring that the older versions are no longer adequate. I chuckle when I read about how inadequate a .270 Win is today since elk and habitat have changed so much since Cactus Jack welded his Model 70's. They would have you believe that the same old Winchester loaded like they were in 1968 won't work today. If, in fact, they happened to give this or many other similiar combinations a try they would be surprised with the results. I have a sixties vintage .270 Sako Finnbear and some decades old handloads that came from an old friend's collection after he passed away. I think I might just shoot a bull elk with one of them instead of pulling the bullets. Then I'll watch my kid shoot one with the big 7 mm and a Berger 168. Like I said both will work if we can hit the critter.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Open your eyes and look around. How many cartridges have made it past their 100th birthday? 30-06 (1906), 30-30 (1895), 7X57 (1893), .22 rimfire (1857), buy experience...

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I've kept my backwoods ignorant mouth shut long enough about this but I can't believe some of the posts coming down on the gunsmith!! If some rich bastard came into my shop and didn't listen to what I advised, as long as he remained civil, I'd build him a cannon, which is what the ignoramous got. And the wrong bullet too.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Clay:I have a friend here in Wyoming who has a closet full of rifles, some custom, some factory, some wood, some not. He hunts the big stuff in Africa and Alaska with a .416 Rem (yep big brother of the 7 STW)but for EVERYTHING else he shoots his beloved .25-'06 the results of which are beyond reproach. Maybe others, including locals, feel it is not enough medicine for elk or moose but old Sam can't find any reason to use something else. Oddly enough he has a wall full of decades of trophies and lots of photos that make his choice (and yours) very difficult to argue against. At one time the longest shot I ever made was with a .25 but have since exceeded that one with one of those long barreled big 7 mm's and it is not an STW. It's even bigger. Yet I love my 7 mm-08 for most hunting. Are not our choices and arguments part of what makes us all gun nuts? Most folks get a .30-'06, are happy as hell, and could care less about our various rifle/cartridge addictions.

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from Visitor wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

The shorter the barrel the less velocity you have!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

BUCKWhat you say has some truth in it. However, with all the razzle dazzle form all the manufacturers the question is?What’s the best choice!?From “Fusion to Delusion, I’ll stick to what I do know which will deliver and some of you know what my choices are!!By the way to learn about something you got to read about it. The problem is, does the author have a broad range of experience for the subject at hand? To know what is the best choice is and cause and effect is? Or feeding you line moose nuggets!The case and point is, for someone to use a 140-grain in a 7mm STW and to say it’s too light of a bullet does not have a clue what they are talking about!! For a 7mm Rem Mag 150 grain bullets of good construction works fantastic on Elk!!Think about this? The Nosler BT has a solid base and that does a lethal job on its own!!!

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

mr. smith,I agree with you on the 7-08 but I think you must use 22 in. or better barrel length in 7-08 to achieve full potential. Nothing wrong with that, better balance than 20 in. models and full burning of powder. If I ever by another rifle strictly for deer size game its going to be a 7-08 handloaded with 139-150gr softpoints.

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from Buck wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I have said the same kind of thing many times. I have it on my website page about bullets. Many hunters don't want to take the time to learn about guns... or how to hunt. WH is probably a good guy who has been successful because of his skills in business. Why does he want to 'buy', rather than learn the skills for hunting?Buck@score-your-hunting.com

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from Lone Star 45 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

If 140 as you say are not good for the 7mm STW then what is? If you’re going to tell me something sucks, you better be able to tell me why and what the fix is!! If not, you are an idiot!

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from James wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

The story sounds believable except for the gun owners trade. He should have read his own being an obvious knothead.

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from Troy S. wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

As comedian Ron White likes to say,"Folks, you can't fix 'stupid'".(Apparently, you can't buy an ounce of common sense, either, even when the market is flooded.)

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from micko wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Sadly, I discovered that the same principles hold true with handgun cartridges. I had a last-minute opportunity to go on a late winter hunt in Illinois, and the ammo cabinet was empty of anything I thought suitable except some 125 gr. .357 "personal defense" ammo. I figured that if they were good enough for the bandit, they should also work on Bambi--wrong! 15 yard broadside shot right on the left shoulder, blood splattered for ten feet on the snow, and she walked off as if annoyed. Tracked her a half mile to property absolutely off-limits; I imagine she became coyote chow. Now I make a point to keep a stock of suitable ammo for the .357, .41 and .44 just in case. Bitter lesson. I've found that some people learn from the mistakes of others, some from their own mistakes, and some just don't learn. I hope I remain in one of the first two categories!

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from mr. smith wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

My 7mm-08 is everything the 270 is and more in my opinion. I can handle heavier bullets and can also shoot the lighter stuff at the same or greater velocity. I don't see how going to the 7-08 is any sort of step down??

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from Dick Mcplenty wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Ya BT's function real well at 3000fps impacts,if you like bullets to fragment and not exit.The 150bt is a staple in the 7mmstw.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

As my 2 year old Granddaughter will say,WELL DDDAAAAAA!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I also find it interesting I can research my own information at hand including the web and within in minutes find the answer as to why the 7MM STW load didn’t work.This should have beenPetzal: A Sorrowful Tale of poor bullet choiceDP must have tossed this out there knowing that the information given was flawed and to see how many will “swallow this hook line and stinker!”

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I find it interesting that the 257 Weatherby is ok!But the 7mm STW isn’t?What’s a mater with you guys?Can’t you fellas get it right!Right from the pages of Nosler ,“Nosler Ballistic Tips are designed to function between a Minimum Impact Velocity: 1600 fps Maximum Impact Velocity: 3000 fps.”In other words, Nosler Ballistic Tips are not designed for magnum ultra velocities!And the recoil of the 7mm STW hurts just thinking about it.Can you say "AIR BALL (BULLET)!"Arm chair specialists, don’t you just love them!

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from Forrest N wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Had a Warbird, big gun, big boom, lots of fun. But, at close range, even with Accubonds, lost a LARGE mule deer in much the same way.Have switched back to 30-06 and .35 Whelen, with much better results on both end of the rifle. For smaller critters, .257 Roberts is stellar!!

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from Dick Mcplenty wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

The 7mm stw has to be one of shootings biggest wastes and horse phuckings of the 1990's.I've seen guys that would have never wasted money on a new rifle buy 7mm stw's to later sell them,because the cartridge didn't produce in standard barrel lengths..Another common problem was over loading in an effort to get the velocities they thought they should be getting.Smith I use has a couple boxes of 7 stw brass with blown primers,flattened primers and case heads,from several differant customers that insisted 7stw was the holy grail.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Thank You Brother ishawooa!I'll stick with my 25-06

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Some decades ago it became apparent to me that a properly constructed bullet which is somewhat heavy for caliber propelled at extra fast velocities from a long barreled magnum will kill critters dramatically at rather extended ranges if the shooter practices a lot on a constant basis. A big slow bullet will also kill critters in a most satisfactory way. However a big fast bullet, again of proper construction, will kill critters ever better than the aforementioned choices. You ain't convincing me otherwise. That said how much dead do you want to inflict? I remember reading about a guy, whose name unfortunately escapes me at this moment, who killed all record class B & C N.A. trophies with a plain vanilla Rem M-700 7 mm Rem mag. He did borrow a .340 Wea for the big bears and I think a walrus. So who needs a super fast, flat shooting, extra loud, hard recoiling, long barreled, huge scoped, synthetic stocked (preferably with decent paint but vomit colored is acceptable), made of stainless steel, custom actioned with a Sako extractor, Jewell trigger, push or controlled feed (both work) and anything else we can dream up? A few of us gun nuts who have grown tired of shooting everyone else's favorite.When it gets down to the nut cuttin' all of them will work if the shooter can shoot.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

and some of you talking up the Barnes Bulet!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Excuse me Gentlemen, to say, too much gun and too small a bullet at too high a velocity and too dumb to take advice is really dumb to say. The fact is the shooter didn’t research the performance range of his projectile!It's not the weight per say,It's the construction of!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Saying that the 140 grain bullet was too small is really a oxymoron statement if you know your bullets. According to Nosler, Ballistic Tips are designed to function between a Minimum Impact Velocity: 1600 fps Maximum Impact Velocity: 3000 fps.I remember shooting 100 grain bullets out of my 300 Win Mag that was up around 3800 fps and the bullets blew up before hitting paper and hot loaded 130 grain Hornady‘s worked absolutely fantastic! Sounds to me that the 140-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips at nearly 3,600 fps has the wrong copper alloy jacket unable to withstand the friction/heat of the bore. A 140 grain is plenty heavy at that velocity and I’ll bet the 139 grain Hornady would have been a better choice. The 300 Win Mag I had, I loaded Hornady 130 grain with 79 grains of IMR4350, 77 grains was max at 3500fps so go figure with 79 grains. From Jackrabbits to New Mexico Mule Deer I never had a problem!!

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from Zermoid wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Comment on the muzzleloader references:A 50cal patched round ball with 95 grains of 3F under it WILL go clean thru a 4 inch dia and about 1/4 inch thick steel tube the forest service uses around here as a post to mount steel gates on closed roads. Clean 1/2 inch hole too! Needed to empty the rifle before going home and I really figured the soft lead ball should just splatter on the hard steel, WRONG!And these magnum crazy people think they need a modern magnum for penetration? Ever seen a steel plated deer?

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from mitch wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Great parable! Too much gun, too small a bullet at too high a velocity and too dumb to take advice. A 7mm Mauser with the right 140 grain bullet and he would have been a happy man.

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from retired waycar rider wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Hummmmmm seems to me that a gun writer by the name of Layne Simpson is the one that started the 7STW then went on to make 3 or 4 other STW's. Remember gun writers have to have to eat and get free perks too. right Dave ????

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from Ryan wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

P.S. This blog is amazing. It starts in a gun shop and ends with Steven Spielberg's genius as a filmmaker and Robert E. Lee's military tactics. Sort of like that game as a kid where we passed a phrase down the line and it kept morphing into something different. That's why I keep coming back.

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from Ryan wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I think the point David is trying to make here is that sometimes if you think ultra velocity and super tight groups are the most important thing, then you are mistaken. Target shooting and hunting are two different things. This guy would have been better off with his grandaddy's .30-06 or a .270 that shot 2.5" groups. I actually went down (in velocity) from a .270 to a 7mm-08 because 100% of my shots will be inside 200 yards and I can rarely even see farther than 50 yards where I hunt. I even sometimes take an iron sighted 45-70 handi-rifle or 30-30 as first choices. As far as bullets go, I have fun debating and researching about construction and tip construction etc. with the best of them, but nobody that I know ever b*tched about plain jane core-lokts or powerpoints or factory partitions.............

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from Visitor wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Choosing the right bullet for the job would have made a big difference. Partition all the way.

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from johnnydawson wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I had a 7 STW once, and I loaded it with 175 grain remmington core lokt bullets. Powder chosen was WC 860 machine gun powder, loaded to 100 percent load density. One hole groups. 28 inch barrel. I never measured the velocity, but I am sure it was well over 3300 feet per second. I shot a 200 pound pig, and the bullet barely went past the ribs. Took forever to find it, no blood trail. Now I use the .338 Win. Mag with 250 grain core lokt, deadly on pigs. No problem with the blood trail. So I agree with the moral of the story. How's that for staying on topic!

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from Mike Reeder wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I was intrigued by the ballistic tip when it first came out for a couple of reasons; one, it was one of the most ballistically efficient bullets I'd ever seen, and two, reports of its frangibility struck me as just what the doctor ordered for the relatively small whitetails in our area (the biggest-bodied buck you'd ever see where I lived weighed about 110 pounds. The average deer runs 65 to 80). Most of my hunting at that time was from a tree stand, with plenty of time to place a bullet perfectly. On most does, I would never shoot until I had a broadside shot with the off-leg positioned to avoid meat damage in the far shoulder. My load was basically the old Western load for the 7X57, with the 140gr. ballistic tip exiting the 22-inch barrel of my converted 98 Mauser at about 2,850 fps. It worked like a charm if you placed the shot right. Everything inside the chest cavity was soup but with little extraneous damage. Typical shot distances ranged from 25 out to at most about 125-yards. The brush and cedar was usually too thick to expect to shoot much beyond that, with the exception of one doe I shot at about 220 in a plowed field. It was also a great setup for deer hunting in more open country in southwest Texas, where the deer were also small but the distances tended to stretch out. I did shoot a couple of hogs with that same load with fairly spectacular results, but when actually hog hunting I usually went to more stoutly constructed 150 gr. handloads, or used 180 gr. Core-Lokt factory loads in my '06. Point being that certain bullets are good for certain things within a certain velocity range and not so much for others. The custom gun builder tried to tell Petzal's WH that obvious fact, but there are few mixtures more potent than arrogance and ignorance. My own view is that a ballistically efficent bullet in a suitable caliber, driven at anywhere from 2,700 fps up to about 3,200 fps., is plenty flat enough to take any big game animal at rational hunting distances. It's certainly not worth lugging around an awkward 28-inch (or 26 inch as far as I'm concerned) barreled rifle in order to shoot a wildcat caliber that delivers no real practical advantage in the field, while presenting all kinds of problems in terms of ammo availability, etc. All these arguments about caliber, velocity, etc. are fun and help pass the time, but as long as you are using any caliber within a remotely acceptable range for what you're shooting, what really counts is bullet placement, bullet performance and being wise enough about your own limitations and respectful enough of what you're hunting to wait for a decent shot to present itself.One other side note -- as much as I love and admire Marse Lee, no general ever committed greater folly than Picket's charge. If you've ever stood at the foot of that long incline looking up at where the Federals were entrenched, you can't avoid shuddering thinking about the men who tried to make that long, open climb.

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from NapoleanDynamite wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

With the exception of Steven Speilberg's creative genius and Lee's tactical genius, I don't think anyone would consider the men on eyeball's list to be 'genius' material. Usually it's not the smart ones that work their way to the top, it's the ones who know how coerce, lie, mis-direct, and scam their way to power. Usually those who are actually as sweet as they claim to be are the quite ones in the background doing whatever it is their good at. That's not to say there aren't obnoxious academics out there making asses of themselves, but to say history's biggest mistakes have been made by geniuses is way off.And with regards to Lee, the man really was as good as they say. At Gettysburg he was duped by a Union artillery officer who slowly cut down the rate of fire on his guns leading Lee to believe that his own arty assets had destroyed the Union's fire support capability. The only difference between audacity and recklessness is whether or not you win, and in this case a clever Union officer tricked Lee into making an audacious move that ultimately became a reckless endeavour.

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from Thos. B. Fowler wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I was with Mr.B's comments until he ridiculed Robt. E. Lee...sorry about that gaffe. Down in Virginia, we not only respect Marse Robert implicitly, but also our gunsmiths and their sage advice about rifles and loads. I have found the 140 gr. Sierra bullet ideal for Whitetails in my little Mannlicher Schoenauer 6.5.[BTW...Pickett's charge was mishandled by the arrogant Longstreet. Longstreet was sulking because the troops did not receive the .58 caliber Weatherby's for the attack. Little known fact, of course.]Tom Fowler

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from Carney wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I'd say the WH knew something = if he'd allowed that 2 extra inches on the barrel, the hyper velocity would then have caused the bullet to disentigrate into thin air and he wouldn't have even gotten the antlers!What would Layne Simpson do on such a Mule Deer hunt? Hmmm. Maybe instead of stalking closer, he'd stalk away to widen the gap?!?!?!Heck, we could start a whole new hunting movement for hyper velocity shooting with frangible bullets! Since I have so much experience already, I could write the book: "You Too Can Widen the Distance Between You and Your Quarry"!

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from KJ wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Dave,One of the most-argued advantages of hypervelocity hunting rounds is long-range killing power. You've hunted and killed more animals than most of us can hope to hunt. Do you have a ballpark figure of how many animals you have harvested that required shots beyond 200 yards?

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from Visitor wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I often wonder if when the bullet blows up on impact it a molten mas?

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from Visitor wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

rkk77Is Clay Cooper drunk? how so?? makes since to me!

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from Mike wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

A Lazzeroni would probably burn pizza. Fire spews out the muzzle. Surprised he hasn't named one of his rounds Dragon Breath.

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from semp wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Can you warm pizza with a Lazzaroni?

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from Thomas wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Now Dave doesn't it feel good to get that out in the open. You know what they say "Pride Goethe Before The Fall." Just Kidding.Tom the Troll

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from Chad Love wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Now damnit Eyeball, don't go ragging on "1941". The ten-year-old me thought it was a great movie. The 37-year-old me, well, not so much, but good taste is often an overrated thing...

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from rkk77 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Is Clay Cooper drunk?

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from eyeball wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

The problem with geniuses, Ph.ds, etc. is that they cannot believe that someone with thirty or forty fewer IQ points than they have can give them advice about anything. That is why most of the really obvious, boneheaded mistakes in history were made by geniuses.It takes a Caesar to trust a Brutus.It takes a Robert E. Lee to order a Pickett's Charge.It takes a Napoleon to attack Russia, then hang around Moscow until winter.It takes a Montague to plan and sell an Operation Market Garden.It takes a Churchill to plan a Gallipoli.It takes a Woodrow Wilson to champion a League of Nations in Europe without making sure the US Congress would ratify it if he did.Hey, it takes a Stephen Spielberg to make a "1941" and "Howard the Duck."I can go on forever. You smart guys out there, take heed.

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from Mr. B wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Do you know what the difference between Genius and stupidity?Genius has it's limitations. Case in point WH vs WCGB.I was told a long time ago that if you are paying good money for a rifle then the gunsmith will not take you down the wrong road. Trust him with your rifle project if you don't then find one you do....

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from Gritz wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

As for velocity, even some commercial loads for 7mm are quite over the top. In Wisconsin, where I hunt, there is rarely a shot over 75 yards. Most shots are within bow range. I'm talking about thick, surprise the hell out of you, blasting. My uncle and brother insist on using their 7mm mags because "they're fast!" Well, I don't know much about it but under 50 yards there isn't much dodging of a 30-30. You could probably use a rock if you practiced enough. Anyways, last year my uncle shot one of those overgrown corn gobblers with his big, super accurate, hole puncher and the thing literally e x p l o a d e d. I mean an exit wound that you could put your arm in. When you are hunting brushy rabbit holes for medium-sized deer you need a brush gun, not a super duper heat seakin, long range weapon of destruction. I have just begun to hunt with a .50 muzzleloader. I love it. all of the adds push the idea of "magnum power" and lead you to believe that to get ultimate performance you need 150 grains so you can shoot through stuff at 200 yards. I have yet to load it over 100 grains. The bullets I use don't need to go that hard to kill what I am shooting at and the bullets actually perform (hold together) much better at lower thresholds. When in doubt, I've learned that slow and heavy bullets under 75 yards will always work better than light and fast.But to each his own as long as it works for you. And if you are out there hunting then it must be working.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

names have been changed to protect the silly?I LOVE IT!I find it interesting that using a Nosler Ballistic Tip and if my memory serves me right is a solid base bullet. Two things have not been mentioned. First was shot placement? And second even solid base does allot plowing witch points back to shot placement?! I was getting complete pass thru on mule deer with Nosler Solid Base 55 grain out of my 22-250 with excellent performance with good clean kills.I’m willing to bet that rifle kick like a truck load of mules and the flinch factor was off the scale!When I was stationed at Holloman AFB that borders White Sands Missile Range the home of imported African Ibex, I’ve heard a lot of stories of bullets blowing up and not even penetrating past the ribs.Speaking of White Sands Missile Range, Wildlife Officials and Law Enforcement could not figure what was killing the Mountain Lions (Cougars). They had bullet holes but could not find the bullet. One day one of the Game Biologists spotted a young Ibex running with a small Mountain Lion still shishkebabbed on its horns. Case Closed!By the way, I knew a clown in Alaska using a 375 H&H with Nosler Partitions wounded a nice Caribou double shovel that ran off Taylor Mountain never to be seen again and dropped 3 cows with one shot! That idiot lucked out by bringing out all the meat and because he did not punch his harvest ticket because a kill is a kill only received only a 100 dollar fine and suspended license for the remainder of the season. But WAIT! That idiot wanted me to take him north of the Yukon River were your allowed 5 caribou and shoot a Caribou or two on my license with my gun, NOT NO BUT HELL NO and not going to be in my truck either!

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from Tennessee Hunter Guy wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I certainly agree

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Ten Hunter Guy,What's going to matter is US going to the polls. Lets get out and ensure our sportsmen friends vote.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Shaky,You mentioned Roy W. briefly. He built a fantastic rifle no doubt but I'll tell ya as a promoter of his product, PT Barnum had nothing on that man. Roy is the guy that made all shooters think faster is better. Years ago (early 50's) I read an article from him promoting his rifle to the hollywood set, and his 'actual' claim about how fantastic velocity was(his rifles), is that you would never actually have to hit the animal. The speed (velocity) of the near miss would kill them!

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from Tennessee Hunter Guy wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

This is entirely off topic but i feel it needs to be said. If anyone thats reads this blog gets the NRA magazine American Rifleman please tear out the card inside telling about Barrack Obamas atrocious gun, make as many copies as you can afford. Distribut them to eveyone u know that might possibly be casting their ballot for Barrack Obama. We must perserve our right to keep and bear arms!

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from Mark-1 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I had to look up "phrenology" too, Doc.fps=can be too much of a good thing.I've never been keen on l-o-n-g range shooting in hunting situations. It doesn't take an expert sneak to close the range to 250-yards although a hunter may have to work at it.

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from Shaky wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I am not opposed to the magnum rifles/cartridges produced today or in the past. I have experienced several of them myself, and don't think that most of them are the best for me,personally. I do have, and shoot, regularly, a .338 Win.mag.,but when I prepare to go hunting, 85% of the time I will take the 25/06, 10% the 30/06,and 5% the .338. With all due respect to Roy Weatherby, his touting of the hyper velosity/hydraulic shock, freebore design,etc, though selling many rifles, has produced a generation of hunters who believe you have to have the very biggest, loudest, kickingest smoke pole available in order to be taken seriously as a hunter.And actually, for 90% of my own deer and elk hunting, my old 94 in 30/30 would be adaquate for the task, I just happen to shoot the others better, because I don't see so well and don't have, or want a scope on that old warhorse. This is not to condemn those of you who do regularly hunt with the big ones, but the truth is that the short fats are simply duplications of old and tried rounds that have been around for a lifetime. I don't need an excuse to buy a new firearm, except that I want it, but I don't buy the hype/hoopla that the arms companies spread in order to sell a new rifle. Shoot whatever you like, hunt whatever style works for you, life is too short to be unhappy on someone elses values, even mine.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I had to look up phrenology so I know nobody knows what the crap it is... Dave is messing with our minds. The bumps in your skull pre-determine your personality. They may fall on their face but at least they're out there trying.The WH, WCGB and STW are all to blame. FPS is highly overrated and in fact can become a detriment at close range. Hunting has evolved from bragging about getting close was to bragging about hitting from far away. Are we going backwards?

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from Andrew wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

There are plenty of fools at every income level who think they know everything about everything. But there is certainly something to the know-it-all businessman sterotype. Outfitters seem shocked and then are usually super helpful when I say "What do you think is best for an average shooter" No doubt every other guy who want into their shop in a suit is crack shot / master hunter / navy seal / gunsmith who can take the kick from a cannon with on arm.Manufactures get people to buy new bows every year and "magnum" cartridges that no one needs by touting FPS- it sure seems to work.

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from docbill wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

This same know it all shooter probably would put plastic boobs on a perfectly serviceable 25 year old mistress too. Sort of mine is bigger than yours.

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from Mike wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I have had my share of cannons - including a Lazzeroni Warbird and Firebird and three .454 Casulls. Loved to shoot them and I don't blame anyone for wanting one. (I always wished Lazz made a .35 caliber, though that might be borderline masochistic. He could just call it "Thumper.") These guns had their places, and I never considered their purchase a mistake. That said, recent whitetail I have taken were with a .270Win Failsafe, a .50 cal swaged round ball, and a 100gr fixed broadhead. Each was under a different hunting situation. Each worked just fine.Some of us, me included at times, especially when I was a know-it-all teenager or when no one knowledgeable was around to show me the ropes, just have to be humbled before the light bulb clicks on and we seek out someone we respect with more experience. Hopefully, the light bulb went on for WH.It is so important to reach out to others, not just youngsters, to patiently introduce them to hunting, shooting, reloading, and the "stuff" (a big thank you to the good gun writers and Hunter Safety and NRA trainers). But some of us can be so opinionated, arrogant, and self-righteous that the neos turn away. There's one gun writer out there whose articles even I won't read, and others whom I turn off as soon as they open their mouths ... and I haven't been a teenager in decades! Frustrating, because they have some good information.Some responsible and educated experimentation is fine. But if WH was turned onto the 7mm STW Ballistic Tip by another shooter then that person also has to take some responsibility and help set him right.

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from wgp wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I too had a Ballistic Tip blow up, and though I did find the deer I have stayed with Partitions since then (I am aware that there are newer things but these work so well). I have never bought a Magnum caliber rifle -- I have been well-served by the .30-06, .308 and a pleasant little .257 Roberts. I did fall for the too-powerful scope disease once, but got over it.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Yeah, yeah, yeah... been there done that one myself. .257 Wby Mag from 30 yards and Nosler Ballistic Tips pretty much explode on impact. Found all my deer except for one that another fellow shot about 150 yards away. Just found the blood trail and gut pile for that one.Like a friend told me water-skiing one time "if you're not falling you're not learning". From then on I would venture out past the wake and experiment and not worry about others laughing when I did a face dive in the water. Pretty much applies to everything.

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from Beekeeper wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

If he had only swithced to the 140 Accubond the story would be much different...Arrogance is arrogance no mater the finacial standing or lack there of...There is a guy here in my town who killed a huge 10 point (5X5) whitetail 7 or 8 years back. Heavy beams tremendous tine lenght, spread, the whole package! Had it in of the pickup truck with the tail gate down going around town bragging about how he did this and did that to bring the old boy to bag. Came by my office for a few minutes (I enjoyed seeing the buck not him) and left. Continued on with his bragging and some where along the way he took off too quickly from a stop sign and the buck slid out. The deer hasn't been seen since. The big guy upstairs has a great way of making those who are less than appreciative pay...

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

I will make one more statement here.If you prefer/want a magnum rifle, shoot-heck-fuzzy-fire, go for it! I don't care. Just don't chide me because I want my deer dead and not destroyed!Bubba

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Good day all.I don't know that this is a "sorrowful" tale. At one point in my young life, I felt that "velocity" was the "answer"! After developing a load for a 90 gr. HP for my .270 Win, I proceeded into the woods to lay low the might white tail. I did indeed lay several of the mighty bretheren low, watching feet flip over in my 9x Vari X-I Leap-a-long scope, marveling at the death and destruction rendered there unto. No/little recoil. Immediate knowledge of the animals demise/escape!After dressing several of these half destroyed carcasses, (blood shot meat from last rib to ears!) I began rethinking my approach. (Hey, the bullet expended all it's energy INSIDE the target animal! WOW!)NOW, I shoot a standard Sierra 130 gr SPBT at near factory velocities. The deer may run for a short distance after the shot, BUT(!), they are just as dead. I deal with just a bit more recoil, don't see flipping feet in my scope and always have less blood shot meat, which is my main objective!HELLO!, standard velocities!!!BOO on magnum rifles!Bubba

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from crm3006 wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Sounds like the WH and the WCGB were both dumber than a flat rock.A .30-'06 will kill anything on the North American continent just as dead at viable shooting ranges as what ever that super-duper whooper the WH just had to have, and probably has killed a lot more of it, whatever IT is!!

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from SilverArrow wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Pity that wisdom, earned at such a high cost, is not respected compared to popular theories spawned from cheap talk! Hopefully the WH in this tale of woe has taken up golf or polo or some other diddle and left hunting to those who respect the animals enough to learn to listen to truly wise and experienced voices!SA

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from Zermoid wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

And BTW I take exception to the "the only thing a 28-inch barrel is good for is pole vaulting." part, I have a Swede Mauser which even with taking the last 4 inches off of the barrel it still is longer than any scoped rifle case I ever saw. It gets packed into a shotgun case for going hunting, I also carry a 44 mag for brush use where I can't swing the "cannon" as my kids call it.

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from Zermoid wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Stupidity comes in all classes and ethnic groups, it's not limited to the wealthy.

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from jes wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

And yeah, I posted that.

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from Visitor wrote 5 years 34 weeks ago

Not really a sorrowful tale of high velocity, is it? But an all too common problem of a bad bullet for the job! It's a good thing to know, though, since looking back on the early days of the .220 swift, and the bad damage they caused before better bullets came out, it was the same old story...either people couldn't figure out what happened when a bullet encountered flesh and bone...or they didn't want to know! Caused a lot of wasted venison, and undue suffering on the animals part, as well....Too bad they didn't have something big like a buff or elephant coming at them, then they would have a reason to know a little more about "internal ballistics"...(or not ever have to think again...EVER)

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