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Some Thoughts on Jackbooted Thugs

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December 03, 2007

Some Thoughts on Jackbooted Thugs

By David E. Petzal and Phil Bourjaily

A jackboot is a laceless military boot that comes almost to the knee; whose sole is studded with steel hobnails and whose heel is rimmed with steel. All this metal eliminates the need for a shoemaker, and makes a dandy racket when troops march in step. The most prominent users of jackboots have been the Germans, in World Wars I and II. 
      
"Thug" derives from an Indian cult known as thugee; its specialty was strangling travelers and then robbing them. Gradually, the word came into English meaning a dangerous criminal in general.
      
The person who put the two words together was Wayne LaPierre, the then (and current) Executive Vice President of the NRA. In 1995, in a fundraising letter, Mr. LaPierre referred to agents of the BATF and FBI as "jackbooted thugs." The resulting uproar caused some NRA members to resign, most notably the first President Bush, who was an NRA Life Member.
      
What Wayne LaPierre (or whoever actually wrote the letter) had in mind was two episodes that occurred in the early 1990s. The first was at Ruby Ridge, Idaho where the family of Randy Weaver was laid siege by the FBI. A number of people were killed on both sides (as was the Weaver's lab) but the most horrific death was that of Vicki Weaver, Randy's wife. She was standing behind a door, unarmed, holding her infant daughter in her arms, when she was shot in the head and killed by an FBI sniper named Lon Horiuchi.
      
As a result of Ruby Ridge, FBI Deputy Director Larry Potts received a letter of censure; E. Michael Kahoe, Chief of Bureau's Violent Crimes and Major Offenders Section, pleaded guilty to trying to destroy all copies of the FBI's internal report on Ruby Ridge; and overall, 12 officers were disciplined for their roles in the siege.
      
No action was taken against Lon Horiuchi.
      
The second event was the siege at Waco, Texas in 1993, in which a force of 75 ATF agents plus hundreds of other federal law-enforcement personnel equipped with armored vehicles took on a fringe religious group called the Branch Davidians. It consisted of 50-plus men and 75 women and children. The Branch Davidians were armed, although how heavily has always been under dispute.
      
At the end of 51 days, the Feds mounted a full-scale military assault against the compound, culminating in a catastrophic fire. As a result, either 74 or 79 or 85 Branch Davidians were killed. Attorney General Janet Reno, who approved the assault, accepted responsibility for the tragedy, but did not leave office. It was a case of "My bad. Sorry."
      
There are two reasons for bringing all this up. First is because we should remember. Second is, when Wayne LaPierre wrote his infamous letter, he was not attacking the ATF and FBI for no reason. He was reacting to massive failures at all levels, on a large scale, on two occasions, that resulted in the deaths of innocent American citizens.

Comments (134)

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from Michael M. wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

We are a self governed people. The gov't is supposed to serve us. Someone had a great post prior in pointing out that we are afraid of the gov't. I served, Purple Heart and all. But I can tell you that our forefathers wanted us to have the wherewithall to protect our selves "against all enemies, foreign or DOMESTIC" I think the govt has way to much power, w/o the braines and could eventually have the police act as their personal army to control us, thereby not violating posse commitatus. How many polititions do we have, making decisions for us, who have never had a Real job? The NRA, SCI, and other groups have our best interests in mind, imo. The NRA is one of the few groups ever that I have contacted that didn't reply w/ a form letter, imagin that, I talked to a ,real, informed, person! All I can say is that potentialy we all could be in a big jam in the next couple yrs. Also, Dennis, why don't you try, w/ your paramilitary organization to take my firearms. Call for lots of backup. I did the Law Enforcement thing for 6 yrs, and I saw alot of abuse. Alot of cops have that, anything I can get away w/ mentality, and I never saw so many soap operas going on.

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from Gman wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

Alamo, I was gonna post a reply, but it said TypePad had flagged it as "potential comment spam" and wouldn't let me publish.Talk about unfeeling bureaucracies and partisan censorship. Jeez.

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from Dennis wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

Alamomy friend,I would associate the radical thing with the NRA in large part, because of whom the NRA chooses as its spokespersons and some of the crazyness that spews from these spokespersons mouths. I realize that not all them are actual spokespersons for the NRA but they certainly hold themselfs out there as such. Not only as spokespersons for the NRA but for all of us, outdoorsman, gun enthusiasts, whatever. I do not believe the NRA has your rights or your best interests in mind. I'm not sure what you mean by "any other demonstration" the NRA is the only one discussed. I took my young nephew rabbit hunting last weekend, I would see that as so much more impacting and positive in regard to gun ownership, hunting, outdoors, the whole shabang, then simply sending the NRA's lobby some money and getting my neat little magazine in the mail every month or whatever. And I'm not surprised by the actual tough guys out there (keep in mind I'm not the one making the tough guy statements) I'm surprised by the ridiculous statements made from time to time by indiciduals who I am convinced whould poop themselfs if confronted. I've been a police officer for many years and a Marine with 2/7 for six years before that. Believe me, I've seen plenty of leg pissing.On many occassions it followed alot of tough talk. I've nearly lost bladder control myself on a few occassions but where I'm concerned, the tough talk is for talkers. (if that makes sense)Sorry for the rant

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from Alamo wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

Gman-I believe the point to be made is that federal beauracracy tends to be strongly dismissive if not disdainful of the citizenry it is meant to serve. That there is a strong anti-gun and anti-gun owner bias within federal law enforcement is in my opinion, self evident. I would submit that like our little friend dennis, feebs and BATmen tend to equate NRA memebership or any other demonstration of one's willingness to openly defend their Second Amendment rights with evidence of radicalism.Also there is no doubt that the Clinton administration was heavily immersed in the incident at Waco. That J. Reno was personally involved and certainly consulting with other senior members of the admin is undeniable. R-Ridge was simply demonstrative of the contempt held by federal law enforcement.And dennis, people like you are always surprised by the number of actual "tough guys" actually out there. Your apparent experience with "leg pissing" notwithstanding, I would suggest you abstain from projecting on those who are likely your betters.

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from Dennis wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

AmenAlso do you guys actually believe at this point in time that the NRA gives a rats ass about your personal rights?Do you also think (as one poster above incinuated) that millions of NRA members are gonna get together and make some sort of well organized collective stand, if in fact big brother finally placed its big plan (No doubt thought up by the liberals with Hillary taking the lead)into action of swooping down and taking your guns?Get some perspective, so many of you internet (from my cold dead hands)tough guys would be pissing down your own legs and tossing your weapons out the door the minuet the big bad govt showed up at your door, if something like that ever happened. WHICH IT WONT but Ted Nugent would have you believe so

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from Gman wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

Good point, SL. Ruby Ridge was in '92, now that I recall. Adds another dimension to the rat bastard roster.

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from SL wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

Ruby Ridge occured under the Bush I administration. Some of these posts make it sound like Clinton and Reno were to be blamed for both.

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from Jason wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

Eldon,The use of no knock warrants is for situations where it may be dangerous for officers to walk up. Since as you have reminded me David Koresh and if only by mob mentality so was his followers criminally insane. That would justify the use of those tatics. Also because of the mental instability it is impossible to tell how the Davidians would have reacted to a pair of officers. Without being able to predict what would have happened, it would have been irresponsible to send them up.Also please keep in mind that in the attempted "take down" of this house noone was supposed to get hurt. The Davidians were tipped off and armed themselves. I don't believe that it was forseeable by the ATF that something like that would happen.

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from Trae B. wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I agree with Concerned_Soldier up there about thedeath penelty that involves guns back in the day the main kind of execution was the good ol' firing squad.If we still had that i'll bet everything I own that most of the problems in the world would be solved.

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

For a new prospective of Ruby Ridge and Waco please read "Cold Zero" by Christopher Whitcomb. It is a autobiography of his life as a FBI Agent and HRT Team Member. It includes Ruby Ridge and Waco from his side of the story.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

It is impossible to read the above comments and not be ANGRIER than I was before at the madness that was the DOJ under 1st Klintonista regime puppet Reno! So much for the assertion that 'No one died when Clinton lied.'! It is as disturbing to note the reaction of law enforcement to the massecre (or should we say non-reaction).SA

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Thank you Dr. Ralph. Thank you Mike Reeder. Tor, why is it traitorous to express an opinion?Never could figure out where Tima has been or where she (he) is going!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I think I'll go out in the backyard and shoot a tomato for Tima...

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

My head hurts see yall on another blog!

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from Tor wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Zumbo is a traitor

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from Mike Reeder wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I'm not sure I can agree with frankintank that the government did not create the standoffs at Ruby Ridge and Waco. Granted, both Weaver and Koresh should have surrendered to authorities, and neither one is/was the type of person I'd want over for Sunday tea. But Ruby Ridge was a classic case of entrapment. A federal office solicited the crime by asking Weaver to saw off a shotgun. Weaver never received the summons that led to the gvt. assault and what followed was a disastrous use of excessive force and poor judgement, followed by what I would regard as a criminal effort to obstruct justice and cover up incompetence and malfeasance. Yet the man chiefly responsible for that debacle, Larry Potts, not only dodged prosecution but ended up overseeing an even worse disaster in Waco. Again, I do not defend Koresh, who should have surrendered, but there was no reason for that raid to begin and end as it did. Anytime Sheriff Jack Harwell ever contacted Howell/Koresh he always did as he was asked. When the raid began the Davidians actually called the sheriff first, saying they were under armed assault and needed help. While I can't prove it, I feel strongly based on what others present have told me and what came out in the various trials that the agents fired first. Koresh's subsequent actions were irrational but hardly unpredictable, and in fact were predicted by several religion profs at Baylor whom the FBI dismissed. The FBI not only refused to listen to locals; it also refused to listen to its own negotiators. You were dealing with a religious fanatic who believed in end times and the gvt. responded by playing deafening Gregorian chants day and night and by mounting an armed assault. In other words, the gvt. created the Armageddon Koresh had told his followers was coming. You expect nuts to act nutty. You would like to think federal law enforcement officers would not set about to push them deliberately over the edge.

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from frankintank wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I used to quip to some folks that it was guys like Tim McVeigh who give anti-government extremism a bad name. That said, I have always believed that Randy Weaver and David Koresh were each far more responsible for what happened to them & their misguided followers than the government EVER was. In each of their respective cases, Koresh & Weaver were the ones who started a giant turd rolling downhill where OTHERS would end up having to deal with it. Government may have bungled these standoffs, but they didn't create them. I agree with the posters who observe that many in law enforcement are principled and decent people trying to do a tough job. With a lead in like that, you know there's a big "however" coming. My gripe with everyone from the traffic cop to J. Edgar Hoover is that these guys absolutely refuse to police one another! They claim that good cops hate to be tarnished by bad cops, but ya couldn't prove it by me. Remember the guy in NYC who was sodomized right at the station by cops with a plunger? Nobody saw a thing! Amazing. If a "good cop" won't interdict a "bad cop" - is he really a good cop?

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from Mike Reeder wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Actually Mark, I recall Moses packing a pretty potent staff.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Remember those good old days when church elders were peaceful, non-weapons packing individuals.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

My Great Great Grandfather may have had it right. A six shooter in one hand and the bible in the other. He was a Methodist Preacher and the County Sheriff!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

My Great Great Grandfather may have had it right. A six shooter in one hand and the bible in the other. He was a Preacher!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Thanks a lot Mr. Reeder. Your insider information just makes me even more confident in my beliefs that this was a complete and total cluster foxtrot...Clay did you get your grandson a deer yet? I'm still working on one for my son.

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from Alamo wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Wow Mike-Terrific insight. I had formed an opinion of the Waco atrocity and the culpability of the Clinton DOJ, but your experience more than reinforces that assessment.I have a close friend (he stood for me at my wedding) who later became a feeb. He is still a good friend, but in my discussions with him about DOJ policy and attitude in regard to Ruby Ridge and Waco it was shocking to me how readily he dismissed the concerns of many citizens. His "they were extremists and they deserved what they got" perspective was beyond disturbing.

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from Mike Reeder wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I have a bit of insight into the Davidian mess. As a reporter in Waco my assignment editor sent me out a couple of times to interview Koresh (who at the time still went by Vernon Howell)after he and his folks were aquitted of charges stemming from their shootout with the previous nutjob who owned the property outside town. I never felt really threatened around him, but he would make you feel uneasy when he went off on one of his Revelation jags. One minute he'd be a pretty normal guy, and the next his eyes would go dead and distant and he'd be off. After a few minutes it was almost like he'd come out of a trance. He'd kind of look at you, say "Sorry about that," and be normal again. The one thing I gleaned from those encounters was that he was absolutely sincere in his beliefs. His father-in-law also dropped by the station a few times pushing Vernon's music tapes. Just a mousy little guy who was killed the first day.The fact is they had been living out there for years and never posed any threat I knew of. Child services investigated them a couple of times but could never prove anything was wrong, and Vernon always cooperated fully with the sheriff on those trips.I believe the entire tragedy was fueled by bureaucratic infighting. BATF was being sued for discrimination, there was talk of folding it into the FBI and the new anti-gun administration was working on its first budget. I think the ATF wanted to stage a big raid to please its new anti-gun boss and make points before the budget was drawn up. A photog friend of mine told me the reason the feds were able to use the convention center, which was normally booked, was that they had already made arrangements for a photo op to be held the day after the raid showing off all the illegal guns they seized. FYI, the same photog was also the guy the feds accused of "tipping off" the Davidians, which was bull. The feds had tipped the media to the raid and the photog in question was parked a couple of miles away, waiting for the go-ahead. A rural mailman pulled up and asked the photog what was going on with all the traffic and helicopters. The photog (I'm not using his name) told him he had no idea because he was just out to get weather video. About that time the scanner in the news car went off with the feds openly talking about the raid on an open channel. The mailman, who turned out to be a Davidian, took off. The photog told me the feds later grilled him and flat told him "We're going to blame you for this."As for Vernon (Koresh) not being a viable target outside the commune, that is bull. He used to play his guitar almost every week at the Ruby Tuesday's in the mall across from the TV station. The feds refused to listen to the sheriff, religion profs at Baylor or any other locals, who tried to tell them to back off or risk making Vernon's "prophesies" come true. They had decided he was a con man and they had no use for more informed opinions. I met one of the FBI agents later in OK who had helped oversee the whole fiasco, and asked him if he'd had any problems dealing with the deadly aftermath. He was so cold in saying he had zero regrets that it actually shocked me, and I'm pretty shock proof. You'd think someone in charge of an operation to rescue children (and how child abuse became a federal responsibility is beyond me) would at least be upset that all the children burned up alive. I walked away from that conversation being a lot more disturbed than by any talk I ever had with David Koresh. A lot of people should have been fired and prosecuted, starting with Reno, and its a travesty so many of them were able to just dust their hands and walk away.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

ThomasI totally agree that we have the potential to grow!We need to expand the industries where we have markets. There are immense markets for a lot of products that we can make from trees. Why didn't someone jump into Grayling after GP shut down their board plant there? There are lots of trees dying down there that could be utilized, providing jobs. We can make diesel fuel, ethanol or electricity from wood. I hope that she can woo some of the firms with expertise in these fields, but I think they shy away because of the tax structure here.YooperJack

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

YooperjackI live less then 10 miles from the first Ethanol plant in Michigan.And about a hour's drive from the largest Silicon chip and circuit board maker outside of California. But we do not hear one word from Gohome about the success they are.Right now Hemlock Semiconductor is expanding their operations big time. But do you think Gohome would pay them a visit for hireing over 200 new people to help them expand. A friend of mine hauls Chemicals from Dow Chemical in their all day long. He says they need 10 more shipments per day now. 10 new Tanker loads per day because they are making Chips and boards so fast now. The ethanol plant produces a astronomical amount of ethanol for our cars and gives the local farmers a crop that they will always have a buyer for.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

ClayI think you might have oversimplified in your first sentence. The roots of crime are much too vast to say that if homeowners have guns, crime will cease. There are too many social problems that contribute to crime. Hell, I don't think we even know some of those problems. You did, however, point to a lot of solutions. You pointed out that people who attend church services regularly, know the difference between right and wrong. You also pointed out that if you live in an area where neighbors watch each other, crime rates drop dramatically.Having said this, I am in shock over the news from Omaha, yesterday. I can't imagine what that lad was thinking! Also, along the Clay Cooper thoughts, if people carried handguns, would this crime been as severe? There was also a story this week about a gun owner, I think in Texas, who called 911 about two criminals breaking into his neighbors home. He shot and killed both of them. He might be in trouble! A lot goes through my mind on that one too. What would I have done? One thing we know is that his neighborhood is quite a bit safer for all the residents today.YooperJack

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

The group to lead to license automatic firearms is the National Rifle Association. I wonder if the NRA knowing then what would be like today if they would have done something different yesterday. I know the founding fathers if known what today would bring concerning the 2nd Amendment would add, KEEP YOUR DAMN PAWS OFF MY GUNS!Have you noticed that the entire crime rate in Washington DC is due to the fact that the home owners are unarmed and it’s perfectly ok to break into a house knowing that you the criminal have all the rights and the home owner has none! GO FIGURE!It’s interesting if you made a map of all the crime in the town I live in one of the voids of no crime and right in the center of it is my house! Gee Mr. Wizard, I wonder why. When someone goes on vacation or grass gets to tall to cut, there is a fella called the “Mystery Lawn Mower Man” that springs into action making their house and lawn looks like someone is home and at the ready with his tool box for those in need.Perhaps if everyone started acting like neighbors rather than strangers to one another like don’t look at me and keeping a total secret life, this world would be a better place. The original purpose of a town was for security and taking care of each other. I remember my history that Church goers, the Men would carry their guns to Church. Perhaps it’s time to start to rekindle that idea. That would scare the left to death. It’s said to think that the Amish have the highest standards of any community on earth I know of and they are the happiest too! Once they get to know you and find out that you’re not some crazy lunatic, they open up and I find that I couldn’t find a better group to be around any ware.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Am I right or do yall think Im an idiot? I really want to know.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Wow Tima you said a mouthful. Ithink I can sum up your sentiment in one sentence. PEOPLE DONT TAKE YOURSELVES SO SERIOUSLY!! Take a chill pill!

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from Tima wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

For the three weeks before the attack, the Nelsons and VegSource had fought a running online battle with a group of vociferous pro-gun ideologues intent on disrupting debate at VegSource and harassing the Nelsons. According to the Nelsons, not long after they started deleting what they considered inappropriate posts to their message boards, they began to receive obscene phone calls and threatening e-mail. They saw their own physical address and phone numbers posted to message boards at pro-gun sites, along with threats to send the Nelsons a destructive computer virus. At one site in particular, "Tom Bowers' Politically Incorrect Machine Gun Pages," aka "Subguns," the message board participants reveled in whipping each other into a frenzy of anti-vegetarian and anti-VegSource fervor.Submachine gun groupies on the warpath against animal-loving vegetarians? At first glance, it looks like just another wacky slice of Net life. And we haven't even begun to discuss the role of talk show host Rosie O'Donnell in all of this. Or the pistol-packing vegans popping out of the Web woodwork. Or the attack on Subguns itself by demented white power racists hailing from a Web site devoted to Adolf Hitler.But to the Nelsons, the loss of three years of work -- three years of interactively created content generated by an entire community -- isn't in the least bit ludicrous. Instead, it's a depressing indication of where the Web is headed, mid-1999.As the Web matures, it reflects ever more closely the stresses and shocks that radiate through the offline world --- and its edges seem to sharpen. The VegSource trauma, for example, was a direct outgrowth of the Littleton high school massacre. Increasingly, the Web is where people are turning to voice their outrage and act out their passions in the wake of galvanizing current events.At the same time, the Web is accelerating the creation of ever more specialized "communities of interest" -- gathering places for more or less like-minded people, united by their love for dairy-free diets or Thompson submachine guns. These communities are fast becoming online tribes. Which means that what happened to VegSource may represent something more than just run-of-the-mill social friction: It could be a sign of burgeoning online tribal warfare.The two central players in the guns vs. veggies drama, Subguns and VegSource, could hardly seem more different. In one corner, we have a bunch of card-carrying NRA members who like to share pictures of themselves firing lethal weapons. In the other, we find a flood of Gaia-worshippers who flaunt photographs of pet kittens. At Subguns, the regulars ask each other arcane questions about legal restrictions on high-caliber ammunition; at VegSource, the search is on for the perfect recipe for vegan chocolate eclairs (no eggs, please!).But there are similarities, too. It's not just that passionate gun rights activists and animal-liberation freedom fighters can be capable of nearly identical forms of arrogant intolerance. Or that both Web sites employ the same freely available Web conferencing software on their message boards -- a program that makes anonymous and forged postings fairly easy. Both sites feature numerous topic-oriented message boards where there is little tumult -- but each has at least one board in which political discussion regularly leads to flame wars.Most significantly, Subguns and VegSource are both excellent examples of one of the most salient recent developments in Web life: they're topic-specific online communities that have settled next to quasi-commercial hubs. Subguns belongs to Tom Bowers, a federally licensed firearms dealer who sells rifle silencers and equipment for modifying semi-automatic weapons. VegSource is a non-profit organization, but it sells ads to support its operation and features numerous links to other commercial, vegetarian-oriented Web sites.Both sites exploit the Web's greatest strength, its nurturing embrace of niche communities. The Web makes it easy to create a home for any point of view, any particular predilection or prejudice. But the fallout from such niche-ification doesn't have to be friendly: It's just as easy to brew hate as love. Jeff and Sabrina Nelson found that out the hard way in early May.Bowers says his Web site offers one utterly unmoderated message board for general discussion of gun-related matters where "you can post any kind of offensive crap." (That message board, which was operational throughout the period during which this article was researched, went offline at almost the exact same time Salon published this article. A note Bowers posted on another message board at his site offers no explanation but says "it's going to be a few days" before the board is back up again.)"It's a service to the community," he says. "There are very few places where you can go on the Net and put anything you want up there without any form of censorship at all. Unfortunately, because it is unmoderated, it is open to trolls," says Bowers, referring to participants in an online discussion who post comments designed purposely to spark outrage. "We are getting hammered by the Nazis and the Antis [anti-gun advocates]."Nazis? Few veterans of online discourse would dare contradict the truth of Godwin's Law: the longer an online discussion grows, the more likely it is that a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler will be made. But back in 1990, when Mike Godwin formulated his law, few people (excepting Godwin himself) might have imagined that before the decade was over, actual Nazis would be raiding Web sites on a regular basis.Perhaps it was just a twisted form of Web karmic retribution that sent the white power nuts from adolfhitler.com trolling over to Subguns. Certainly there was no shortage of absurd irony to be found in watching the Subgun regulars complain about jerkish behavior by outside invaders. The whole thing could also have been a farce -- an up-to-date version of the infamous attack on the Usenet newsgroup rec.pets.cats by alt.tasteless back in 1993.Or maybe the most cynical Subgun suspicions are true, and the so-called Nazis are in reality sneaky vegetarians impersonating "white gun owners." In the aftermath of the destruction of the VegSource server, the chaos overrunning the Subguns board -- a welter of forged posts, imposters and anonymous trolls -- obliterated any chance to make sense out of the mess.You never really know what's going on out there in the uncharted wastelands of the Web, anyway. Hitler, guns and veggies; fakes, frauds and trolls: Life on the Net often seems baroque and bizarre, weirdly unrepresentative of how real life works. But all too often, online explosions can be traced back to offline catastrophes. A massacre here, an annihilated Web server there -- it's all connected.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

im with you Clay. He doesnt have to be careful about what he says as much!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Hey Doc, I think JZ is doing better now than what he was doing before!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

After 20 years in the Military and 5 years providing my services to the Law Enforcement community from local Police to the Sheriffs Dept to the State Police and the FBI on one occasion, (not counting search and rescue of 22 years) I know for a fact I could have went in and arrested Randy Weaver which a ½ inch to short barrel on a shotgun? Give me a break! And that nut case in Waco would have taken a little time but it would have been easy to do. I use to watch COPS on television but now I relate it to the WWF (World Wide Wrestling Foundation). It’s all about show and money generated for the program, pushing brute force, common since and safety for all around over the edge. I mentioned Law Enforcement. Funny thing, I never had to use force to arrest a person and they all cooperated fully with only giving me tons of tears of regret for what they did. I always told them up front they are in control of this arrest to escalate or deescalate this situation and they had two options. Option one, they don’t cooperate, I will cuff them in the back and make it a very unenjoyable ride or option two, cooperate fully and I can make it easy on the both of us and at the end of the day perhaps, both of us will be at home and I’ll even turn the radio on

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Zumbo's not doing too poorly these days, shoot I see him on the Outdoor Channel all the time. A couple weeks ago I saw him shoot a bear with a muzzle loader, last week he was trying out the new Remington semi-auto shotgun on doves in Argentina and this week he's pheasant hunting in South Dakota. I'm pretty sure Remington is sponsoring him because every time I watch he's using a Remington weapon. Outdoor Life is probably suffering more from his departure than he.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

In reference to Ruby Ridge and Waco and what Wayne LaPierre has said about the Clinton administration is absolutely true. In fact what he said is now the norm for the left wing Democratic Party. What he said back then was, “the Clinton administration allows a certain level of death and carnage to further their own agendas!” Now to include the past and 911 etc. etc. etc., I truly believe that the left has gone over the edge to their damndest to push the destruction of the United States to further their agenda…

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from Gman wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

CSC,What Dave's post has that Zumbo's rant did not is a sense of perspective, and subtlety. You can go back decades and pick whatever government action you want in demonstrating that the "people's right to peaceably assemble" is open to, uh, varying degrees of interpretation before the guys with guns on the public payroll let loose. We can go back as far as the Haymarket Riot or as recently as Kent State, if you want to show instances where folks on the left can also demonstrate legitimate gripes with The Man using deadly force needlessly.Zumbo's infamous post was, as he said, an end-of-day-boy-am-I-tired rant; the kind of thing that in the old days a crusty editor woulda probably said, "Uh, Jim, this is a little weak in supporting evidence; sure you wanna send it?" But alas, them days are gone forever, and Zumbo, he gone, too.Interestingly enough, the Zumbo Incident could have been an opportunity for the "sporting press" to undergo agonizing self-appraisal, and ask itself if it was committed to providing a credible and authoritative voice in the 2A debate, a voice Wayne LaPierre and Sarah Brady both could read and be equally pissed off - which is the acid test of a good news story. Unfortunately, I haven't seen that yet. Zumbo's crucifixion was the most visible example of a closed community in which the voices of reason are more often cheerleaders than Dutch uncles.But feel free to disagree - as many of the guys on here will attest, as will my cousins, I am the camp liberal. I bring red wine to camp; but it is American grown and bottled.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

CSCWhat do you have against free speech? There are lots of comments above that I don't agree with and I know that most of the other writers disagree with either some or all that I've said. That shouldn't preclude anyone from writing.YooperJack

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from commonsense conservative wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Funny good ol David Petzal would comment on this. I would imagine with his track record he would want to steer clear of any type of gun control issues since he threw all the gun owners under the bus. A few years back. But I am sure he got his own honary pair of black jack boots for helping the democrats infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights. What I do not understand how every one can crucify Zumbo and yet give this guy a pass when he was and is every bit as bad or worse.

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from Eldon Dickens wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Jason, sorry, but I still think you just don't get it.Force is allowed in the service of a warrant only under certain circumstances. (Otherwise, the officers have to politely knock. The alternative is a "no-knock" entry.) A special circumstance of officer danger is certainly one set of those circumstances. I hate to repeat this ad nauseum, but Koresh was very seriously mentally ill and his people had bought into it. They were expecting a violent apocolyptic confrontation with the Federal government. BATFE -- as well as the FBI -- were fully aware of this. Thus, the real danger to the cops was if the Feds handed the Davidians the confrontation they expected, complete with black-suited special agents, black guns, and black helicopters -- and that's just what BATFE did. Then, the negotiators for the FBI admittidly lost their objectivity and failed to find a resolution. Every cop, state, local, Federal, I've heard talk about it, personally or professionally, says it is not the way to serve a warrant. If all the Davidians had known was that two suits were walking up to the compound, what would have been the problem with the Davidians knowing they were coming? Answer: none.Yes, Jason, you don't shoot cops, no matter what. You also don't send cops out to attck civilians. And you forget the mental illness. These people didn't see cops coming, they saw the devil incarnate coming, the apocolypse coming, a God-ordained prophecy coming true that required them to literally confront the evil their delusions saw or burn forever in Hell. Again, BATFE and the FBI both knew this was the situation they were walking into. BATFE let the press know, for its own purposes, and the secret got out with the inevitable consequences. They also shot some of their own people. It's not the way to serve a warrant, not legally, not morally, not practically. I don't blame the cops; the responsibility lies a little higher on the feeding chain.A real danger to us all is if it becomes established at law that the mere presence of firearms, say in a locked gun collection, is sufficient justification for police use of deadly force. But institutionally that's the way BATFE is paid to think.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Newton's third law of motion controls the universe, thus tying in OJ, DWB, Murrah, Ruby Ridge, Waco, jack booted thugs, the G-man who cancelled his NRA membership and another G-man who had a different view at the time and has a radio show and may have originated the phrase we are all discussing. I can rant and rave too can't I? And I do appreciate being able to do it without fear from a tyrannical government. God Bless America...

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Yooper dont feel bad. I live outside of Crime Bluff,AR the fourth most dangerous city in the whole U.S.A. Dont go there unless I have to!

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

ThomasYou said it all! While I never would leave the state, I'm embarrassed when I talk to my "Redneck Friends". No one out of state can believe the incompetence here. They talk about unemployment problems of 6 per cent. The folks in Lansing keep talking like their going to attract some large computer company to move here. Its not going to happen. The only light I see at the end of this tunnel is this bioenergy, where we make diesel fuel or just electricity from treetops. Otherwise, I would consider moving.

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Yooperjack,Are we blown away yet?

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Yooperjack,Trust me I fully remember Gohome's day 1 in office when she took a chain saw to everything. The schools is my number 1 beef with her. There have been more schools closed down in the last 5 years then in the entire history of Michigan. Her budget cuts have forced more teacher's in to unemployment and retirement then have been hired in the last 100 years. I do not think there is a county in Michigan that has not had to let teachers go because they could not afford to employ them. I know of school systems that have had to close down for a couple of days just so they could pay the teachers. The 180 days of school have been shortened to around 165. All the extra curricular activities have been cut like Art, Music and Gym classes. A lot of the sports programs have been eliminated. Just last year alone the Saginaw City schools let go 110 teachers and closed down 8 elemetry and junior high schools. So instead of having 20 kids per class it is now 30 or 35 in some class rooms.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Hey buckstopper I live In Wright. Kill ducks in my in my back yard. Real small world huh?

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from buckstopper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

GregI'm from Pine Bluff, I now live in the Metro B'ham area. I will be in Stuttgart real soon to shoot greenheads.

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from Troy S. wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Back to Dave's original assertion:"Jack booted thugs originated in a 1995 fund-raising letter written by Wayne LaPierre."Nope. Not exactly...That phrase, which infuriated many NRA card carrying government types, was actually uttered during the mid 80's. I can't cite certain proof but I was standing in the living room of a retired G-Man when he threw up his hands after hearing it reiterated on the nightly newscast and immediately went to the phone and called the NRA's home office and gave them hell over the phone and canceled his life membership- a membership he had for nearly 3 decades.If memory serves, it was originally made during an NRA convention. Whether it was LaPierre or not, I do not know. But some reporter repeated it and played it up for the newsies.Too bad, too. That former G-man is a good patriot who has done a lot for his community, family and friends. We could use his support. Be interesting to know how many of these we lost due to loose lips and unengaged brains.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Mark-1I think the problem that you are addressing is the inadequacy of the LA court system, combined with a star struck judge. I honestly believe that, had you been sitting in that courtroom as the defendant, with the same evidence, you would be writing from death row right now.The other three cases described all had incompetence in the execution and corruption in the coverup.ThomasI'll make a point to wave at the Sabreline trucks as I pass them. I might even see you at a truck stop because I burn diesel.The only reason Jennifer Grandholm got re-elected is LIES!Prior to the election, every statement she made included the phrase "We've turned the corner Michigans economy is on the rise." The ink on the ballots was still wet when, as soon as she knew she'd won, she started looking at what she could cut. Unfortunately, a lot of morons, including just about everyone with a press pass, believed her.YooperJack

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Yooperjack,Yeah I drive one of the Sabreline Transport trucks going back and forth down US 2 and 40. I kinda wonder my self why we can't get rid of some of the undesireables in office here in Michigan. Down here in Troll land we have or had Dem Jim Barcia from Bay City. I think he was one of the few Democrats that the NRA endorsed from Michigan. What I can't understand is how Grandholm got reelected. Nobody that I have ever spoken with voted for her.I heard rumors that she had Detroit Mayor Kwamie Fitzpatric stuff the ballot boxes for her down there. If anyone is a Jackbooted Thug it would be Fitzpatrick and Canadian Gov. Grandholm is not far behind him.Some times I think she was a Viking the way she has Raped, Plundered and Pillaged Michigan.Sorry People: but our illustrious elected Govener boils my blood. And if I don't vent once in a while I just might do something stupid and ruin it for everyone.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Missing the point, Yooper J.Corruption: What it is. How it manifests itself. How it thrives. How the People let Authority know they've had enough, That jury stuck it up the Establishment's butt and broke it off. That was what the OJ Trial did IMHO.I've seen local juries do the same thing.Gov't ignores strong statements like that at great hazard.

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from RBA wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

The fact that some of you take precautions to ensure that you're not on someone else's list tells something about the current state of our government and the trust we no longer have for them/it. A trust that at one time was almost automatic. no pun intended.My 70 year old mother use to be one who unwaveringly trusted the gov't to do what was right 'no matter what'.She no longer holds that opinion. I believe it is a growing trend.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I think we all agree on the root issue here. Someone has to be held responsible when these actions go astray and nobody ever or seldom is.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Hey I think we can all agree that mistakes were made in both these cases, and the two other cases that people interjected (OJ and Kathryn Johnston) I think Dave Petzal was trying to make a point that the feds get heavy handed when faced with opposition, especially by gun owners. Their reactions are irrational but few, if any, of the feds get punished for mistakes. I think that another point made by lotsa folks was the incompetence of AG Janet Reno, who personally oversaw both of these operations. While the Kathryn Johnston case is very similar, it was a local event and the local authorities have taken steps to ensure that the event is not repeated. I can't see where the OJ case has any bearing on this discussion. He was tried before a jury that wouldn't have convicted him no matter what the evidence.

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from Dave in St Pete wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Greg,You have not offened me. I agree with debate.As you dislike anti-gov comments, I dislike making excuses for something that should never have happened and was handled in a criminal way by our gov.The government at both Ruby Ridge and Waco simply murdured those prople and we must not forget that.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

i dont get on these blogs to offend anyone, if I have my apologies. Healthy debate is a good thig. Im glad we have a plce to debate the issue in a friendly manner. I respect all of you and your opinions.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

You have a point Dave. As I said before this was monumental incompetence. And those babies didnt have to die. Its just the anti-gov. comments get me fired up. Its far from perfect but it is still the best in the world. Hell some of these comments would get you executed in some countries!

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from Dave in St Pete wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Greg,Proof? Was that what the warrent was for or did they even have one? And as pointed out, they could have simply arrested him in town.Of course those babies won't have to worry about being abused any longer...THEY'RE DEAD!

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Doc ya scare me a little.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

You folks should look at the proverbial forest on DP’s rant here.Any time you have organizations, individuals, or institutions being abusive and contemptuous while advancing the perception they are acting within and according to the Law is Corruption.Best example is O.J. Trial. The jury didn’t find O.J. innocent as much as they found LAPB guilty of corruption.Government Elites hate it when the Masses make such a strong statement. It shows them where the real power is and who they work for

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Well the bright side is the kids won't be raped anymore... this was a Big Brother scare tactic. Hell just hiring Janet Reno was a scare tactic... have you looked at the lady? They just wanted everyone to know that they could and would burn your children and get away with it. They didn't scare McVeigh, but that's another story.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I agree Dr. Ralph that the deaths were unnecessary, Yeah here comes the but! Koresh was a sick son of a bit@# baby raper! Thats what laws Dave!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Jason, it's been reported hundreds of times that Koresh went to town every month to get a hair cut... same time, same place. Everybody knew his habits and there was absolutely no reason to burn a bunch of babies to catch this guy.

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from Dave in St Pete wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Jason,Just what laws had they broken that called for a use of force?Had they killed or kidnapped someone?

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from Jason wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Eldon,I have to disagree about 2 cops walking up. The davidians knew that the ATF was coming via the mailman who tipped them off. This was about 4 hours before the conflict. It was at that time they choose to prepare to resist the assault. You can take the defend them anyway you like, but you pull a gun on a cop and there is going to be trouble. Like or don't like what the ATF did there I don't think anybody would argue that you don't shoot cops. Period. I am a bit inflexable on that.The point I was trying to make was that the Davidians were making all the calls and the ATF/FBI were only able to respond to them until the final episode. It is a sad thing that they all died, but it was a situation of thier own making.Tactically speaking I don't suppose any commander would give up the element of surprise to see if they would respond to 2 local law enforcement. Considering the response they did get it is hard to argue against that point. I do believe that during the intial assualt that the ATF did not have enough people going in because they failed to take the building. If they would have increased the number of agents going in the stand off and the resulting fire would have never happened. The use of force in that situation should have been overwhelming.

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from Eldon Dickens wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Emmanuel, I appreciate your situation and, having done a little journalism myself, understand what you face. I commend you for your independence in the newsroom.Anon, you ought to consider what Emmanuel and GMan have said. You are already on lots of lists and those probably record a lot of your interests, including guns. Since lists are shared, you're probably on the NRA's list. Might as well send them a check and be hung as a wolf rather than a sheep -- or goat.Jason: Sir, in all respect, you are wrong. What you describe is not arrest, but murder. One of BATFE's major problems is that it is more interested in publicity than police work. Two officers in suits could have walked up to the front door of the Davidian compound and simply asked Koresh to come down the office and answer some strange rumors they'd heard: no confrontation, no violence, no one hurt, no reason to get anyone excited. It's called police work. Again, Koresh was mentally ill, seriously mentally ill. As you said, the Branch Dividians just reacted to BATFE's show of force -- but anyone could have predicted that reaction.Jason, you almost seem to anticipate others' arguments that all bureaucracy is necessarily destructive of life, limb and fortune. Your attitude sounds just as inflexible. I've known a number of cops. Worked with them when I was a victim's advocate and legal secretary. Cops got me interested in hunting, guns and target shooting. They're a great bunch of people, all different, all individuals. Not one that I ever knew would want to hurt anybody, no matter how bad an offender. Despite that, they are ready and willing to put their lives on the line if necessary, but not one of them wanted to be in a shooting incident -- and doing so would be very difficult for them. Amd there is no reason for agency administrators put to cops' -- or civilians' -- lives on the line unnecessarily -- whether its for publicity, or just to "make a statement." Sir, you cannot bluff your way through bullets.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Hey Thomas, I probably pass you on US 2 all the time.I guess I was kind of reflecting why we have the Senators in Michigan that we elected, then reading all of the posts from the Southern Folk, then thinking maybe I'm the only one that votes against these people. We do have an excellent Representative up here though in Bart Stupak. He's a Democrat and has a very good record with 2A.

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from Bump wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

The thing I find encouraging is that people REMEMBER what happened. Today there are so many attempts to rewrite history, that it gives me a warm feeling to read lucid comments about incidents that happened 10+years ago. That is what gives me hope that this country will do the right thing next year at election time. I also use my right hand to indicate where I live.PS Thanks to emannuel and gman for the info on the IP & IPS

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from dickgun wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Many years ago, feeling the need for a firearm insurance policy I prepared a list of all my guns, including the requested serial numbers and was about to send it to NRA to enroll in their insurance program. NRA does not write the insurance of course. They contract with an insurance company to provide the policies. On reflection I became concerned that the first thing that would happen to my gun list was to be entered in a computer program at the insurance company and God knows what confidentiality that would provide. I called NRA and expressed my concern and apparently I was not the only one who had concerns. I was informed that they were revising their insurance policies for firearms and that henceforth there would be no serial numbers required. It is the only firearms insurance policy that I have been able to find that does not require serial numbers.

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

YooperJack,You and Gman are not the only Yanks here. Don't make me hold out me hold out my right hand and point to where I live. But I suppose that is better then having to unzip my pants. Ha Ha just kidding Florida. I travel to Menominee and go through Escanaba and Manistique all the time. Although the Big Bridge gets a little hairy when it is windy out.But at least this time of year I do not have to worry about the Fudgies getting in my way. Just the Terrorist from Ohio going snowmobiling.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Are Gman and me thye only Yanks here? I think Dave Petzal lives in New York also. Not that I feel lonely or anything. I need snow every year. Snake repellant!YooperJack

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Dave,A very good fiction book on this subject is "Unintended Consequences" by "John Ross" I think you and all your readers of this blog would really enjoy it. Although I don't condone the extreme measures that they use. Something needs to be done.

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from Dirty Butch wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

The term was actually used by my friend G. Gordon Liddy on his radio talk show in 1984 while describing a raid on his home before he went to prison.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

It was Absolute Incompetence. Someone in charge should have been prosecuted and imprisoned for the gross negligence.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Thats B'Ham aint it? Get this I was born in Jefferson Co. KY. Im from south Alabama. Where in AR did you live buckstopper?

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Thats B'Ham aint it? Get this I was born in Jefferson Co. KY. Im from south Alabama. Where in AR did you live buckstopper?

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from buckstopper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Like I said earlier, incompetance lead to the Waco disaster.Greg, I was raised in Jefferson CoArk, I now live in Jefferson Co. AL. its a small blog after all.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I'm with Red... it's almost like an Andy Griffith episode. Just let the local police know what's up. They live there, they are familiar with the habits of their people, and they have a sense of connection with what's going on. When the feds take jurisdiction over state and local enforcement bad things happen. They are not military, they are not trained like our military and yet they are given the weapons and they act like kids in a candy store... once more this brings me back to state's rights. The closer the problem solvers are to the problem the better the solution.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Red Woods:You went a long way to back DEP on this one. Its pretty obvious that Clinton wanted to make this into a national story and greatly succeeded! If anyone had any "onions" in a debate, this question would be asked of Mrs. Bill Clinton.Thanks,YooperJack

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from Red Woods wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

The first stupid move was that Koresh was not arrested on one of his many trips to town. The local LEO made this point several times in the investigation of the incident.Catch him on the road into town and take him back to the compound in custody and that whole thing would have went well. It always makes me mad when I read that police introduce tear gas and claim they don't know why the place burned down.The poor leadership and decision making from armchair command that doesn't listen to the guys that do the job. Two cars of street smart officers would have stopped the guy on the road and the job would have been done.Red Woods

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I like him a lot too! He seems to inspire confidence in me.Popular opinion among the pundits is that he can't win. NY and CA people will never vote for a Southern Baptist Minister. I'm about ready to call their bluff! I like the guy! He didn't say anything, in that 2 hours of torture, that made me feel uneasy.I believe that, in a one on one debate format, he would chew up and spit out, anyone whom he is running against.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Yooper, Call me crazy but I sure am lookin hard at M.Huckabee.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Emmanual, Gman:Thank you very much for the info! That went a long way to making me feel better aboput my computer. I use Google a lot and I'm into internet map sites daily so they probably know who I am.I'm really not that worried. I was curious. I would be more worried under an administration that was definitely anti-gun. As such, I'm doing whatever I can to help any pro 2A candidate.

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from Mike wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

i shall NEVER forget...Simply points to WHY we have the second and why the second is SO important.If the jack boot fits.....

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from Jason wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

In the case of the Branch Davidians, they knew that the govt. was coming to serve arrest warrants. Instead of turning themselves over or even taking flight to avoid prosecution they took up arms to fend off the arrests. It was their actions that dictated the violence that day. The only thing the ATF did wrong was not attack with more people.The 51 day siege that you discribed would have been much better described as a 51 day negotions. Where the government went through many efforts to get the Branch Davidians to surrender. They refused to come out peacefully.This mission did not go as planned and their was mistakes made along the way, but everything was the result of the desions made by David Koresh and the people who chose to follow him.

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from Gman wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Emmanuel,Did you see the op-ed piece by Garrett Graff in yestiddy's WaPost about how ignorant the candidates are about tech? So sad I laughed and laughed..mostly that this ignorance has not hit the mainstream press except in the most egregious circumstances. I've been making hay off of it for years in the little-read but august tech pubs I write for.Maybe the gumshoes haven't been taught the differences between dynamic and static IP addresses yet. That would slow things up a tad for 'em if they were fishin' without a clue to start with.

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from Gman wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Emmanuel,Did you see the op-ed piece by Garrett Graff in yestiddy's WaPost about how ignorant the candidates are about tech? So sad I laughed and laughed..mostly that this ignorance has not hit the mainstream press except in the most egregious circumstances. I've been making hay off of it for years in the little-read but august tech pubs I write for.Maybe the gumshoes haven't been taught the differences between dynamic and static IP addresses yet. That would slow things up a tad for 'em if they were fishin' without a clue to start with.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

To Zermoid. If Im not mistaken David Koresh was a baby raper!

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from Jason wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Keep writing about topics related to the 2nd Ammendment Dave. I have a feeling there is a battle up ahead for us gun owners. We aren't nearly vocal enough. We have put up with other people protesting us too long. We need to start protesting in front of the offices of Anti-Gun and Anti-hunting groups instead of sitting idly by and listening to them.

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from Emmanuel wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Yooper,In the Kathryn Johnston case, two of the officers involved have pleaded guilty to manslaughter and face sentencing soon. Johnston's family has also brought a civil suit against the city, the officers and the chief of police.Here's a link to the Atlanta Journal Constitution story from which I've drawn my information; I should have included it before:http://www.ajc.com/wireless/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/11/21/elderly_1122.htmlEven if folks are held accountable -- if all the officers go to jail and the family is awarded a large sum of money -- Kathryn Johnston is still dead, and it was still her own government that killed her. Her own tax dollars paid for the bullets with which she was shot. There can only be so much "justice" when this is the case.Since I write about technology for a living, I'd also like to add something about online privacy to what Gman has already said.You should consider everything you say and do on the Internet as public record, unless you take some special precautions to conceal your identity. Here's why:Your computer has a special number assigned to it called your IP address. Your Internet service provider (also called your ISP, it's whomever you buy your Internet service from) knows that number, and has it associated with your physical address.Every time you use Google or most other search engines, the search company logs your IP address and what you searched for.Let's say Uncle Sam wants to keep an eye on all the folks who have Googled ".50 BMG" or "AR-15" or "how to make a rifle silencer" in the past six months. All Uncle Sam has to do is call up Google for a list of IP addresses that match those terms and then call up a few ISPs to ask for another, separate list of IP addresses attached to names and physical addresses. Then Uncle Sam puts everything into an SQL data base, and a computer program spits out the places in which the two sets of lists match, i.e. the names and address of all the folks who have searched for those "dangerous" weapons and such.Unlike 20 years ago, a stupefying amount of information about any one of us resides on a number of hard drives. Companies such as Google amass loads of data on your online habits in order to better predict what you'll buy and what you'll want to search for.Companies do this because such information is tremendously valuable to marketers and advertisers, who will in turn pay good money for access to it. Google happens to be very secretive about what kind of information it has, how much information it has, and just what it does with its information.Because technology companies have recorded all this information about us, the government, if it is so inclined, can eventually get at it, legally or otherwise. Does anyone remember the Total Information Awareness program from a few years ago?As Gman mentioned, our best hope is that the federal government is too incompetent to do something so simple.

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from Zermoid wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

How long will it be until all people with religious beliefs are branded as "religious fanatics" "nuts" or worse?Bottom line is there is no hard proof that I've ever heard of that the Branch Davidians were anything more than a religious group that believed in self defense.And Randy Weaver was the victim of Govt entrapment from the git go.Remember the saying, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" and remember the govt DOES have absolute power.Also believe there is NO Constitutional "Gun Control", as the Constitution says "the right to bear ARMS" with no limitations on what type of arms, why do rifles have to be a certain length and under a certain size? ANY ARMS should be legal, if you wanted to carry a LAW rocket it SHOULD be OK as far as the Constitution is concerned. My Opinion anyways.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I aint goin anywhere either. Im a hard headed redneck of the BEST kind. Ill stick it out just to spite her!

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Greg:If you read anything I wrote in the earlier blogs, you didn't hafta ask! I'm deathly afraid of poisonous snakes! I don't think there are any in Canada.Seriously, I survived LBJ, Jimmy Carter (that was hard!) and bilary 1. I guess I'll handle the encore. I've got too many friends in both Michigan and the U.S. to ever leave. Also, the people who say their leaving (usually GWB bashers) can afford to leave. But they always come back.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Well Yoop if Billary wins where are you movin Canada or Mexico? I havent made up my mind yet. Saw a real interesting piece on Mike Huckabee last night on night line. Anyone else see it?

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Well Said WAM!While there has been a lot said about GWB's abuse of powers, even his most vehement critics have said that He's used them to catch international and domestic terrorists.A couple of the smartest pundits I hear are saying that Mrs. Bill Clinton has an 80 per cent chance of being the next POTUS. Probably 98 per cent of us will have voted against her.We saw, on the CNN debate, how we are potrayed. We are crazy to begin with. Our Southern brothers are radical right wingers who are still fighting the Civil War. That's what I got from watching that two hours of torture!Anyway, C_S asked earlier, why we were discussing this. I think its a very important topic.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

All those stated are good reasons to belong to the NRA. I'm a life member and proud of it.There is some security in numbers. The Walker's and Davidians were small potatoes and easy to manage. Not so with several million NRA members.

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from DR wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

If being a religious wacko was against the law, why haven't the Mormon Tabernacle and the national Mosque been sieged?FBI snipers are pretty good, so take that into consideration when you hole up.

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from Tom Glidden wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Thank you for the reminder; I will never forget how my government is capable of reacting in these confrontational situations.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Emmanual:What was the disposition of the Kathryn Johnston case? Were any officers charged, convicted, fired? Were any lawsuits filed by her next of kin? You said it received national publicity and yet, I never heard about it before.Notwithstanding, this was an event planned and executed by the Atlanta Police Department. Ruby Ridge and Waco were planned and executed by the Department of Justice and we know that the people ultimately responsible were never held accountable.YooperJack

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from Michael wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Ruby Ridge, the Waco incident, and a host of other incompetent BATF incidents that do not make the major news is why every legal gun owner should support the NRA. They are the last defense against more firearms restrictions that affect only the law-abiding citizen. The press today is only interested in sensationalism; they have forgotten the tenet of "The truth shall set you free."

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from Gman wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I don't think you have to worry about your privacy on the board, Yooper, at least not as far as the government making a list and checking it twice.Given that the cybersecurity department of DHS is and always has been a Keystone Kops operation, I don't think they'd be trolling on the F&S blogs as a likely spot for terrorism possibilities, foreign or domestic. Legitimate terror threats don't usually hide in such plain sight.Everything I hear about the warrantless wiretaps is that they have so much information they are just drowning in it, and more likely would have to prioritize, most likely like this:1. They go to a telco provider and say, "Gimme all your emails sent out on x date."2. They get the emails and check all the incoming and outgoing addresses; they would likely want to go deeper if they saw that somebody had emailed a server in the Middle East or in a European or Asian nation known to harbor Al Qaeda.I think the more likely annoyance with any list the NRA has is that they sell the list to all kinds of marketing types who then clutter up your mailbox with junk mail. I think (don't want to say for sure) that before the Feds could get a member's name it would have to be through a subpoena - and even then, I think a NRA members' list would be way down the list of resources of incriminating evidence; a BATF 4473 would be far quicker in tracking down the party of interest.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Koresh and the adult followers in the compound were nuts! The children were abused innocents. Although i defend law enforcement this action was a farce and some one in charge should have been held responsible.

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from Milton Burton wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

The excuse that they were trying to protect the children in the Waco compound won't was for the simple reason that the ATF has absolutely NO jurisdiction over child abuse/neglect--it is the provence of the state. Things can get wild and wooly in Texas at times, but I have never seen our Child Protective Services use flack gear and armored vehicles to investigate complaints.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I said I could have spent the night in jail. I DID spend the night in jail, sorry for the mistake.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Impressed with your comment at 8:57. you tend to be alittle more inflammatory at times. Absolutely no offense intended.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Just that. A simple Question. Some people that have comments about law enforcement here seem to have a bad taste in their mouths about them. I could have spent the night in jail because of 1 empty beer can about 4 years ago. I was bitter for a while. come to find out this guy was one of the bad ones I spoke of.

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from Tommy wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Impressed with what?

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I think we nailed Bubba!!LOL

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I am impressed Tommy, not that my opinion is anything but that.

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from Tommy wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Most police officers I have met in my life were great people. As has been posted above, there are bad seeds in any arena.What is the nature of your question Greg?

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

By the way I live in jefferson county AR. Someone burned the Sheriff', under construction, house down last night.

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from Tommy wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

All I can say from the above posts, is that it is a bit comforting to know that many citizens, in positions of varying degrees of importance; from the likes of writers, retired military and police, lawyers and even laborers, keep their eyes open in regards to that they ultimately support.Whether you are in any of the aforementioned professions, you do support the government that governs you by your role in society, the job you perform, the taxes you pay.And the guilt we swallow at times.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

What do you think about cops Tommy?

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from Tommy wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Bubba. The writing style is too identical.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I think Iknow who you are Anon. Am I Right?

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Some thoughts that may or may not be interrelated. I’ve made a considerable personal investment to my country and government. I support and depend upon my government, but I’ve learned through observation and experience to trust my government as far as I can toss one of my horses. There’s always unfriendly policies changes.My Theory of any government is they are all bureaucracies that will attack any action, person, and group that threaten its existence. The minute a “Weaver” and Waco situation, an 1840 Mormon-type group, Indian tribal type situation, or a 911 event raises its head the Bureaucracy will crush the challenge to protect its existence.Something to remember when you pick a fight with Government.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

You get any group of people together you get some bad seeds. As far as law enforcement goes, I wouldnt take there job for any amount of money. There will be some that abuse their power.For the 99% of them it is a job they love, actually helping their community. We can pick out bad preachers, teachers and grandmothers. There also will be bad cops.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Anon made some good points. I don't know a lot about computers, Internet, etc. Did Anon (and all of the rest of us) cede the privacy that he or she cherishes by posting that comment? I'm asking because I honestly don't know. Gman, are you out there?YooperJack

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from Anon wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

EmmanuelHere's a thought.I am a gun nut!I support the NRA!I do not belong to the NRA!Why? If the powers that be decided they wanted to grab firearms, who would have the largest list of known gun owners?Would the NRA ever give up such a list? I don't know, but it's a chance I just really don't want to take. Once a year, I send the NRA the price of a one year membership, no name or address attached.Anon

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from Emmanuel wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

The abuses of power and astounding failures that David is talking about didn't end at Waco. They're still happening.Take the case of Kathryn Johnston, a 92-year-old Atlanta woman who lived in a bad neighborhood and kept a pistol on hand for defense. A little more than a year ago, corrupt and incompetent police officers attempted to raid her house, serving a "no knock" warrant and looking for drugs. Here's how the Atlanta Journal Constitution tells it:"A fearful Johnston apparently thought the police were criminals and brought out an old gun to stop the intruders. She fired one shot and missed. Police fired 39 times, fatally injuring her and wounding other officers.They handcuffed Johnston as she lay dying, and then several officers attempted to plant marijuana in the house to cover up the mistake.They falsified reports to make it look as though drug dealing had occurred in the house.The fiasco caused national headlines and led to a federal investigation of Atlanta police, and an almost yearlong hiatus on police efforts to shut down drug houses. The city's reborn narcotics unit, made up of entirely new officers, began investigating drug houses in October."The peace officers I've known personally were decent and honest men doing work they believed in. They would never have fired a weapon unless it was absolutely necessary to protect their own lives or the lives of others.But among any ranks there will inevitably be some jackbooted thugs. And some of those thugs are issued guns. On top of that, the people charged with prosecuting the thugs when the thugs mess up and kill innocent people answer to the same boss as the thugs.Blessedly, these situations don't happen often. But when they do, there are two options: You can be armed or unarmed. The people who wrote our Constitution preferred the former to the latter.To Eldon,My excuse for not joining the NRA is that I'm a member of the media. For rank-and-file newspaper reporters, joining any political group is a swift and sure way to end your career prospects amid accusations of "bias" from all sides.Instead of joining the NRA, I'm often the lone voice in the newsroom raising hell when something inaccurate or misleading is written about firearms. I'm also the one constantly advocating for fair coverage of the folks who enjoy them.

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from Eldon Dickens wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Koresh was seriously mentally ill. In this country, mental illness is a defense against prosecution, if the illness is serious enough. A conviction might have been difficult, certainly would have been problematic. And then there was the issue of protecting the innocent people who had come to share Koresh's insanity. However, this was not on BATFE's agenda. Apparently, by some coincidence, gun control legislation concerning .50 rifles and "machine guns" was coming up in Congress -- and the Davidians were rumored to have such deadly weapons against which BATFE probably though there should be even more laws. A fellow by the name of David T. Hardy has written about BATFE abuses and also I believe Waco. His books are hard to find, but interlibrary loans can usually get them. He also has a blog, Of Arms and the Law.The NRA ad in question was a very big, bad mistake. It resulted in a great deal of very negative publicity, none of which neither the NRA nor we needed. If your opponent is playing the "extremist" card, the last thing you want to do is pull a Goldwater and do what you can to reinforce the accusations. Instead, you want to look rational and sound factual and logical. Namecalling is always a dangerous game. Calling peace officers names, even those such as produced by BATFE, is never going to be a winning strategem. The NRA ad consultants not only made the NRA look foolish, but anti-law and order -- which is also one of the gun control lobby tactics.Take a look at the crowd who responds to this blog. There's a bunch who, despite being dyed-in-the-wool gun nuts (that including me.), a whole bunch don't support the NRA (I'm a Life member). Maybe half of them think the NRA is too extreme, never compromises, and rigidly opposes gun control not matter how reasonable it sounds. The other half thinks the NRA isn't exreme enough, compromises our rights too much, and actually likes and supports gun control. They can't both be right. (Neither are.) If you own guns and believe in the Second Amendment, what's your excuse for not supporting the NRA? Of course, you don't have any friends except those who agree with you 100%. You never go to church because the pastor always preaches some kind of baloney theology. You've divorced a dozen wives because they never cook the way you want them to -- and they're expensive. So, you've got a similarly good excuse for not being an NRA member, right?Totalrecoil's comment about John Dingell surprises me. Dingell was for a long time a membe of the NRA board of directors. He often defied his party bosses to oppose gun control and support hunting. For a long time he had an A+ rating from the ILA. What's behind your negative comments, Total?

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from John wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

This government, like every single other government of the world, commits attrocities against its own people and against those of other countries, and gets away with it scott free 99.9999% of the time. And that will never, ever stop. And we should never, ever stop pointing it out and trying to do something about it.

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from Mike Strehlow wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

A few days ago I was accused of near lunacy for saying that our civilization was fragile. I didn't mean that the US Govt. was going anywhere any time soon; I meant civilized behavior was fragile. This topic ties in.It is amazing how fast riots start when a court case goes wrong. It is amazing how fast looters turn out when the big storm hits and the power goes off. Faster than you would think possible for civilized people.It is amazing how scared Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidians got when the govt. came for them. But they are individuals or small groups of individuals. Jack booted thugs applies to government agents who are acting on behalf of the laws of this country, who have a situation completely under control, and who act like trigger happy idiots anyway. Randy Weaver wasn't going anywhere, yet Lon Horiuchi blasted his wife. The whole Branch Davidian mess was unneccessary; the govt. was essentially there to serve a search warrant. Waco residents wonder to this day why someone wearing a suit and tie didn't just walk up to the front door of their compound, ring the doorbell, and hand the warrant to Koresh personally, rather than going in shooting that first day. There is no record that there were any illegal guns in the place; the govt. changed its story to protecting the children within from child abuse well into the siege. Having killed and burned them all, I would say that the govt. was successful in keeping them from being abused by Koresh after that.Why wasn't Janet Reno fired? Ask Bill Clinton; only the president can summarily fire an attorney general. While you are at it, ask Janet Reno why she as attorney general didn't file charges against Clinton for a dozen different crimes in office, none of them having to do with bimbos. Then add two and two.I do not lie awake at night in fear of my country's govt.; the USA is still the best place on earth to be. In my limited experience I've seen nothing from our military but cool, appropriate responses. But when the government rouses out a couple of hundred uniformed, armed, and armored non-military types who answer to a flexible chain of command, with the idea that they are supposed to make sense of a civil situation, I say keep your heads down. Even yours, Tommy.

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from Mike Strehlow wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

A few days ago I was accused of near lunacy for saying that our civilization was fragile. I didn't mean that the US Govt. was going anywhere any time soon; I meant civilized behavior was fragile. This topic ties in.It is amazing how fast riots start when a court case goes wrong. It is amazing how fast looters turn out when the big storm hits and the power goes off. Faster than you would think possible for civilized people.It is amazing how scared Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidians got when the govt. came for them. But they are individuals or small groups of individuals. Jack booted thugs applies to government agents who are acting on behalf of the laws of this country, who have a situation completely under control, and who act like trigger happy idiots anyway. Randy Weaver wasn't going anywhere, yet Lon Horiuchi blasted his wife. The whole Branch Davidian mess was unneccessary; the govt. was essentially there to serve a search warrant. Waco residents wonder to this day why someone wearing a suit and tie didn't just walk up to the front door of their compound, ring the doorbell, and hand the warrant to Koresh personally, rather than going in shooting that first day. There is no record that there were any illegal guns in the place; the govt. changed its story to protecting the children within from child abuse well into the siege. Having killed and burned them all, I would say that the govt. was successful in keeping them from being abused by Koresh after that.Why wasn't Janet Reno fired? Ask Bill Clinton; only the president can summarily fire an attorney general. While you are at it, ask Janet Reno why she as attorney general didn't file charges against Clinton for a dozen different crimes in office, none of them having to do with bimbos. Then add two and two.I do not lie awake at night in fear of my country's govt.; the USA is still the best place on earth to be. In my limited experience I've seen nothing from our military but cool, appropriate responses. But when the government rouses out a couple of hundred uniformed, armed, and armored non-military types who answer to a flexible chain of command, with the idea that they are supposed to make sense of a civil situation, I say keep your heads down. Even yours, Tommy.

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from Totalrecoil wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Dave: El-Wazir is correct that it was Rep. John Dingell that had used the phrase "Jackbooted American fascists" prior to LaPierre's letters. Actually Dingell's characterization was nastier.The NRA wrote a letter to President Bush after he resigned from the NRA which can be seen at http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/firearms/enforce/nra_thug.htmlIn the end, Dingell proved to be no friend to gun owners or the NRA.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Couple of thoughts:Mrs Bill Clinton apparently personally selected Janet Reno to be the Attorney General. At no time did anyone suggest that she was the most competent person available. She fit the profile. I believe that David Koresh was ultimately the person most responsible for the Waco Massecre. However, the feds went in there with no regard for anyone's safety. While I blame Koresh, why hasn't anyone from the press asked HRC about this incident?When I first read Dave's Post, I wondered, why now? I'm glad he put this up. These would be excellent talking points for the next debate.The Weaver case always seemed more sinister. When I feel paranoid, I think about that. I never believed what I read about that. It almost seemed like someone in the Government had it out for Randy and was going to get him, guilty or not. Maybe Mrs. Bill Clinton could enlighten us on that case also.YooperJack

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from Concerned_Soldier wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Dave,Could you have picked a more heated topic, maybe Abortion or the death penalty?GUNs, GUNs, GUNs, okay Firearms for you word Nazis!! Oh sorry, bad reference timing.How they shoot, Where to shoot them, fun stuff like that Dave.I have heard enough of the other stuff on the news. This, that and the other thing went bad today...Your a Vet and a writer, a good one at that, write about GUNs. Not Ruby Ridge and the Waco Cult!! Hindsight is 20/20But then again, it is your Blog!! You fought for the right, you might as well use your 1st Admendment. Who better, then someone who has paid for it.Which is a helluva alot more then we can say about some people.V/RC_S

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Let's see, Randy Weaver cut the barrel off a shotgun 1/2" too short for Big Brother's tastes. At the request of an undercover FBI agent let us not forget. His court papers were incorrect and so he didn't show up at the appointed time. Their appointed time, not the one they gave him... Seems reason enough to shoot his wife in the head while holding his infant child after spending over $1,000,000 of our money on surveillance. No?David Koresh thought he was God. A bunch of people moved into his compound and treated him as such, including letting him have sex with anyone including little girls. Who are we to say he wasn't God? Freedom of religion? The BATF surrounded him and burned the compound to the ground along with everyone there. Way to save the children. Maybe if we're lucky Hillary will become president and Janet Reno will once again be attorney general. We can only pray...

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from Dave in St Pete wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Bubba,I am human and have many failings but I don't remember shooting any innocent people and getting away with it.(and I'm hoping you were being sarcastic)

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Tommy,Though Koresh died, there were survivors of the raid that escaped or got out days before the fire. Don't know if they were so pro-Koresh that they would not tell the truth, or just want the whole mess swept under the rug.What little is known of Koresh is that he pretty much took control of the compound by "coup".I'm not saying that the gov't was right or wrong. I'm saying that there is a lot that is not known about both sides and nobody seems to want to clear the air.The Ruby Ridge incident, I understand was a little more cut and dried, with the gov't being a bit over zealous! But, then are we not a government, of the "people", by the "people", for the "people"? Aren't we as "people", human beings? Do we also not, as human beings, have failings?Bubba

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from buckstopper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I agree with Steve C, incompetance was the failing at Waco, leading to arrogance by those in charge. I remember a couple of decades ago when survivalist were in vogue and "Rambo" was in the theaters, a nut survivalist group calling itself "The Covenant, Arm and Sword" had a compound, simular to that of Waco, which holed up near Mt. Home in the Arkansas Ozarks. They actually built an armored car with numerous rockets and bozookas. The US attorney at the time was Asa Hutcheson, he choose to surround and wait them out, eventually after a couple of months the seige ended peacefully. Hutcheson later went on to Congress and a stint in the Bush Administration. The difference again was competance vs. incompetance.Also, don't forget Elion Gonzales'kidnapping by Janet Reno.

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from Tommy wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I frequently remind my wife when we have an argument, or she gets into it with a co-worker that "it takes two to tango". By that I mean it is very irresponsible, in most cases, to entirely blame one person or group for any human failure.I do not know much about Ruby Ridge. I do remember Waco. I remember all the women and children.I think it was a catastrophic human failure that neither of the 2 parties involved could find a way to get all the women and children out of harm's way in that episode. That was a dark day in our existence. On the one side - an "apparent" madman, with hoards of "apparently" brain-washed followers. On the other side - too many men with guns and an amount of patience that did not seem to matter. In the end - too many dead women and children with no "apparent" wrong-doing.And our mighty rulers could do nothing about it.I use "apparent" in this way because while there is evidence of the Koresh guy being wacked out, I guess since he will never face a trial, which we all deserve, we will never really know what was going on there.

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from El-Wazir wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Seems to me it was a pro-gun, NRA card-carrying Democratic congressman from Michigan, John Dingle, who first used the phrase. LaPierre said so in one of his fund-raising letters around that time. Gotta read your mail, Dave...

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from Steve C wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

IF the term "jack-booted thugs" applies, it would more appropriately be to the response of the ATF and FBI in the aftermath of Ruby Ridge and Waco. What led up to Ruby Ridge and Waco was incompetence, which I believe is a greater threat posed by those in power.

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from Michael M. wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

We are a self governed people. The gov't is supposed to serve us. Someone had a great post prior in pointing out that we are afraid of the gov't. I served, Purple Heart and all. But I can tell you that our forefathers wanted us to have the wherewithall to protect our selves "against all enemies, foreign or DOMESTIC" I think the govt has way to much power, w/o the braines and could eventually have the police act as their personal army to control us, thereby not violating posse commitatus. How many polititions do we have, making decisions for us, who have never had a Real job? The NRA, SCI, and other groups have our best interests in mind, imo. The NRA is one of the few groups ever that I have contacted that didn't reply w/ a form letter, imagin that, I talked to a ,real, informed, person! All I can say is that potentialy we all could be in a big jam in the next couple yrs. Also, Dennis, why don't you try, w/ your paramilitary organization to take my firearms. Call for lots of backup. I did the Law Enforcement thing for 6 yrs, and I saw alot of abuse. Alot of cops have that, anything I can get away w/ mentality, and I never saw so many soap operas going on.

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from Gman wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

Alamo, I was gonna post a reply, but it said TypePad had flagged it as "potential comment spam" and wouldn't let me publish.Talk about unfeeling bureaucracies and partisan censorship. Jeez.

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from Dennis wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

Alamomy friend,I would associate the radical thing with the NRA in large part, because of whom the NRA chooses as its spokespersons and some of the crazyness that spews from these spokespersons mouths. I realize that not all them are actual spokespersons for the NRA but they certainly hold themselfs out there as such. Not only as spokespersons for the NRA but for all of us, outdoorsman, gun enthusiasts, whatever. I do not believe the NRA has your rights or your best interests in mind. I'm not sure what you mean by "any other demonstration" the NRA is the only one discussed. I took my young nephew rabbit hunting last weekend, I would see that as so much more impacting and positive in regard to gun ownership, hunting, outdoors, the whole shabang, then simply sending the NRA's lobby some money and getting my neat little magazine in the mail every month or whatever. And I'm not surprised by the actual tough guys out there (keep in mind I'm not the one making the tough guy statements) I'm surprised by the ridiculous statements made from time to time by indiciduals who I am convinced whould poop themselfs if confronted. I've been a police officer for many years and a Marine with 2/7 for six years before that. Believe me, I've seen plenty of leg pissing.On many occassions it followed alot of tough talk. I've nearly lost bladder control myself on a few occassions but where I'm concerned, the tough talk is for talkers. (if that makes sense)Sorry for the rant

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from Alamo wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

Gman-I believe the point to be made is that federal beauracracy tends to be strongly dismissive if not disdainful of the citizenry it is meant to serve. That there is a strong anti-gun and anti-gun owner bias within federal law enforcement is in my opinion, self evident. I would submit that like our little friend dennis, feebs and BATmen tend to equate NRA memebership or any other demonstration of one's willingness to openly defend their Second Amendment rights with evidence of radicalism.Also there is no doubt that the Clinton administration was heavily immersed in the incident at Waco. That J. Reno was personally involved and certainly consulting with other senior members of the admin is undeniable. R-Ridge was simply demonstrative of the contempt held by federal law enforcement.And dennis, people like you are always surprised by the number of actual "tough guys" actually out there. Your apparent experience with "leg pissing" notwithstanding, I would suggest you abstain from projecting on those who are likely your betters.

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from Dennis wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

AmenAlso do you guys actually believe at this point in time that the NRA gives a rats ass about your personal rights?Do you also think (as one poster above incinuated) that millions of NRA members are gonna get together and make some sort of well organized collective stand, if in fact big brother finally placed its big plan (No doubt thought up by the liberals with Hillary taking the lead)into action of swooping down and taking your guns?Get some perspective, so many of you internet (from my cold dead hands)tough guys would be pissing down your own legs and tossing your weapons out the door the minuet the big bad govt showed up at your door, if something like that ever happened. WHICH IT WONT but Ted Nugent would have you believe so

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from Gman wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

Good point, SL. Ruby Ridge was in '92, now that I recall. Adds another dimension to the rat bastard roster.

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from SL wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

Ruby Ridge occured under the Bush I administration. Some of these posts make it sound like Clinton and Reno were to be blamed for both.

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from Jason wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

Eldon,The use of no knock warrants is for situations where it may be dangerous for officers to walk up. Since as you have reminded me David Koresh and if only by mob mentality so was his followers criminally insane. That would justify the use of those tatics. Also because of the mental instability it is impossible to tell how the Davidians would have reacted to a pair of officers. Without being able to predict what would have happened, it would have been irresponsible to send them up.Also please keep in mind that in the attempted "take down" of this house noone was supposed to get hurt. The Davidians were tipped off and armed themselves. I don't believe that it was forseeable by the ATF that something like that would happen.

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from Trae B. wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I agree with Concerned_Soldier up there about thedeath penelty that involves guns back in the day the main kind of execution was the good ol' firing squad.If we still had that i'll bet everything I own that most of the problems in the world would be solved.

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

For a new prospective of Ruby Ridge and Waco please read "Cold Zero" by Christopher Whitcomb. It is a autobiography of his life as a FBI Agent and HRT Team Member. It includes Ruby Ridge and Waco from his side of the story.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

It is impossible to read the above comments and not be ANGRIER than I was before at the madness that was the DOJ under 1st Klintonista regime puppet Reno! So much for the assertion that 'No one died when Clinton lied.'! It is as disturbing to note the reaction of law enforcement to the massecre (or should we say non-reaction).SA

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Thank you Dr. Ralph. Thank you Mike Reeder. Tor, why is it traitorous to express an opinion?Never could figure out where Tima has been or where she (he) is going!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I think I'll go out in the backyard and shoot a tomato for Tima...

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

My head hurts see yall on another blog!

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from Tor wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Zumbo is a traitor

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from Mike Reeder wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I'm not sure I can agree with frankintank that the government did not create the standoffs at Ruby Ridge and Waco. Granted, both Weaver and Koresh should have surrendered to authorities, and neither one is/was the type of person I'd want over for Sunday tea. But Ruby Ridge was a classic case of entrapment. A federal office solicited the crime by asking Weaver to saw off a shotgun. Weaver never received the summons that led to the gvt. assault and what followed was a disastrous use of excessive force and poor judgement, followed by what I would regard as a criminal effort to obstruct justice and cover up incompetence and malfeasance. Yet the man chiefly responsible for that debacle, Larry Potts, not only dodged prosecution but ended up overseeing an even worse disaster in Waco. Again, I do not defend Koresh, who should have surrendered, but there was no reason for that raid to begin and end as it did. Anytime Sheriff Jack Harwell ever contacted Howell/Koresh he always did as he was asked. When the raid began the Davidians actually called the sheriff first, saying they were under armed assault and needed help. While I can't prove it, I feel strongly based on what others present have told me and what came out in the various trials that the agents fired first. Koresh's subsequent actions were irrational but hardly unpredictable, and in fact were predicted by several religion profs at Baylor whom the FBI dismissed. The FBI not only refused to listen to locals; it also refused to listen to its own negotiators. You were dealing with a religious fanatic who believed in end times and the gvt. responded by playing deafening Gregorian chants day and night and by mounting an armed assault. In other words, the gvt. created the Armageddon Koresh had told his followers was coming. You expect nuts to act nutty. You would like to think federal law enforcement officers would not set about to push them deliberately over the edge.

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from frankintank wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I used to quip to some folks that it was guys like Tim McVeigh who give anti-government extremism a bad name. That said, I have always believed that Randy Weaver and David Koresh were each far more responsible for what happened to them & their misguided followers than the government EVER was. In each of their respective cases, Koresh & Weaver were the ones who started a giant turd rolling downhill where OTHERS would end up having to deal with it. Government may have bungled these standoffs, but they didn't create them. I agree with the posters who observe that many in law enforcement are principled and decent people trying to do a tough job. With a lead in like that, you know there's a big "however" coming. My gripe with everyone from the traffic cop to J. Edgar Hoover is that these guys absolutely refuse to police one another! They claim that good cops hate to be tarnished by bad cops, but ya couldn't prove it by me. Remember the guy in NYC who was sodomized right at the station by cops with a plunger? Nobody saw a thing! Amazing. If a "good cop" won't interdict a "bad cop" - is he really a good cop?

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from Mike Reeder wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Actually Mark, I recall Moses packing a pretty potent staff.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Remember those good old days when church elders were peaceful, non-weapons packing individuals.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

My Great Great Grandfather may have had it right. A six shooter in one hand and the bible in the other. He was a Methodist Preacher and the County Sheriff!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

My Great Great Grandfather may have had it right. A six shooter in one hand and the bible in the other. He was a Preacher!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Thanks a lot Mr. Reeder. Your insider information just makes me even more confident in my beliefs that this was a complete and total cluster foxtrot...Clay did you get your grandson a deer yet? I'm still working on one for my son.

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from Alamo wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Wow Mike-Terrific insight. I had formed an opinion of the Waco atrocity and the culpability of the Clinton DOJ, but your experience more than reinforces that assessment.I have a close friend (he stood for me at my wedding) who later became a feeb. He is still a good friend, but in my discussions with him about DOJ policy and attitude in regard to Ruby Ridge and Waco it was shocking to me how readily he dismissed the concerns of many citizens. His "they were extremists and they deserved what they got" perspective was beyond disturbing.

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from Mike Reeder wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I have a bit of insight into the Davidian mess. As a reporter in Waco my assignment editor sent me out a couple of times to interview Koresh (who at the time still went by Vernon Howell)after he and his folks were aquitted of charges stemming from their shootout with the previous nutjob who owned the property outside town. I never felt really threatened around him, but he would make you feel uneasy when he went off on one of his Revelation jags. One minute he'd be a pretty normal guy, and the next his eyes would go dead and distant and he'd be off. After a few minutes it was almost like he'd come out of a trance. He'd kind of look at you, say "Sorry about that," and be normal again. The one thing I gleaned from those encounters was that he was absolutely sincere in his beliefs. His father-in-law also dropped by the station a few times pushing Vernon's music tapes. Just a mousy little guy who was killed the first day.The fact is they had been living out there for years and never posed any threat I knew of. Child services investigated them a couple of times but could never prove anything was wrong, and Vernon always cooperated fully with the sheriff on those trips.I believe the entire tragedy was fueled by bureaucratic infighting. BATF was being sued for discrimination, there was talk of folding it into the FBI and the new anti-gun administration was working on its first budget. I think the ATF wanted to stage a big raid to please its new anti-gun boss and make points before the budget was drawn up. A photog friend of mine told me the reason the feds were able to use the convention center, which was normally booked, was that they had already made arrangements for a photo op to be held the day after the raid showing off all the illegal guns they seized. FYI, the same photog was also the guy the feds accused of "tipping off" the Davidians, which was bull. The feds had tipped the media to the raid and the photog in question was parked a couple of miles away, waiting for the go-ahead. A rural mailman pulled up and asked the photog what was going on with all the traffic and helicopters. The photog (I'm not using his name) told him he had no idea because he was just out to get weather video. About that time the scanner in the news car went off with the feds openly talking about the raid on an open channel. The mailman, who turned out to be a Davidian, took off. The photog told me the feds later grilled him and flat told him "We're going to blame you for this."As for Vernon (Koresh) not being a viable target outside the commune, that is bull. He used to play his guitar almost every week at the Ruby Tuesday's in the mall across from the TV station. The feds refused to listen to the sheriff, religion profs at Baylor or any other locals, who tried to tell them to back off or risk making Vernon's "prophesies" come true. They had decided he was a con man and they had no use for more informed opinions. I met one of the FBI agents later in OK who had helped oversee the whole fiasco, and asked him if he'd had any problems dealing with the deadly aftermath. He was so cold in saying he had zero regrets that it actually shocked me, and I'm pretty shock proof. You'd think someone in charge of an operation to rescue children (and how child abuse became a federal responsibility is beyond me) would at least be upset that all the children burned up alive. I walked away from that conversation being a lot more disturbed than by any talk I ever had with David Koresh. A lot of people should have been fired and prosecuted, starting with Reno, and its a travesty so many of them were able to just dust their hands and walk away.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

ThomasI totally agree that we have the potential to grow!We need to expand the industries where we have markets. There are immense markets for a lot of products that we can make from trees. Why didn't someone jump into Grayling after GP shut down their board plant there? There are lots of trees dying down there that could be utilized, providing jobs. We can make diesel fuel, ethanol or electricity from wood. I hope that she can woo some of the firms with expertise in these fields, but I think they shy away because of the tax structure here.YooperJack

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

YooperjackI live less then 10 miles from the first Ethanol plant in Michigan.And about a hour's drive from the largest Silicon chip and circuit board maker outside of California. But we do not hear one word from Gohome about the success they are.Right now Hemlock Semiconductor is expanding their operations big time. But do you think Gohome would pay them a visit for hireing over 200 new people to help them expand. A friend of mine hauls Chemicals from Dow Chemical in their all day long. He says they need 10 more shipments per day now. 10 new Tanker loads per day because they are making Chips and boards so fast now. The ethanol plant produces a astronomical amount of ethanol for our cars and gives the local farmers a crop that they will always have a buyer for.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

ClayI think you might have oversimplified in your first sentence. The roots of crime are much too vast to say that if homeowners have guns, crime will cease. There are too many social problems that contribute to crime. Hell, I don't think we even know some of those problems. You did, however, point to a lot of solutions. You pointed out that people who attend church services regularly, know the difference between right and wrong. You also pointed out that if you live in an area where neighbors watch each other, crime rates drop dramatically.Having said this, I am in shock over the news from Omaha, yesterday. I can't imagine what that lad was thinking! Also, along the Clay Cooper thoughts, if people carried handguns, would this crime been as severe? There was also a story this week about a gun owner, I think in Texas, who called 911 about two criminals breaking into his neighbors home. He shot and killed both of them. He might be in trouble! A lot goes through my mind on that one too. What would I have done? One thing we know is that his neighborhood is quite a bit safer for all the residents today.YooperJack

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

The group to lead to license automatic firearms is the National Rifle Association. I wonder if the NRA knowing then what would be like today if they would have done something different yesterday. I know the founding fathers if known what today would bring concerning the 2nd Amendment would add, KEEP YOUR DAMN PAWS OFF MY GUNS!Have you noticed that the entire crime rate in Washington DC is due to the fact that the home owners are unarmed and it’s perfectly ok to break into a house knowing that you the criminal have all the rights and the home owner has none! GO FIGURE!It’s interesting if you made a map of all the crime in the town I live in one of the voids of no crime and right in the center of it is my house! Gee Mr. Wizard, I wonder why. When someone goes on vacation or grass gets to tall to cut, there is a fella called the “Mystery Lawn Mower Man” that springs into action making their house and lawn looks like someone is home and at the ready with his tool box for those in need.Perhaps if everyone started acting like neighbors rather than strangers to one another like don’t look at me and keeping a total secret life, this world would be a better place. The original purpose of a town was for security and taking care of each other. I remember my history that Church goers, the Men would carry their guns to Church. Perhaps it’s time to start to rekindle that idea. That would scare the left to death. It’s said to think that the Amish have the highest standards of any community on earth I know of and they are the happiest too! Once they get to know you and find out that you’re not some crazy lunatic, they open up and I find that I couldn’t find a better group to be around any ware.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Am I right or do yall think Im an idiot? I really want to know.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Wow Tima you said a mouthful. Ithink I can sum up your sentiment in one sentence. PEOPLE DONT TAKE YOURSELVES SO SERIOUSLY!! Take a chill pill!

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from Tima wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

For the three weeks before the attack, the Nelsons and VegSource had fought a running online battle with a group of vociferous pro-gun ideologues intent on disrupting debate at VegSource and harassing the Nelsons. According to the Nelsons, not long after they started deleting what they considered inappropriate posts to their message boards, they began to receive obscene phone calls and threatening e-mail. They saw their own physical address and phone numbers posted to message boards at pro-gun sites, along with threats to send the Nelsons a destructive computer virus. At one site in particular, "Tom Bowers' Politically Incorrect Machine Gun Pages," aka "Subguns," the message board participants reveled in whipping each other into a frenzy of anti-vegetarian and anti-VegSource fervor.Submachine gun groupies on the warpath against animal-loving vegetarians? At first glance, it looks like just another wacky slice of Net life. And we haven't even begun to discuss the role of talk show host Rosie O'Donnell in all of this. Or the pistol-packing vegans popping out of the Web woodwork. Or the attack on Subguns itself by demented white power racists hailing from a Web site devoted to Adolf Hitler.But to the Nelsons, the loss of three years of work -- three years of interactively created content generated by an entire community -- isn't in the least bit ludicrous. Instead, it's a depressing indication of where the Web is headed, mid-1999.As the Web matures, it reflects ever more closely the stresses and shocks that radiate through the offline world --- and its edges seem to sharpen. The VegSource trauma, for example, was a direct outgrowth of the Littleton high school massacre. Increasingly, the Web is where people are turning to voice their outrage and act out their passions in the wake of galvanizing current events.At the same time, the Web is accelerating the creation of ever more specialized "communities of interest" -- gathering places for more or less like-minded people, united by their love for dairy-free diets or Thompson submachine guns. These communities are fast becoming online tribes. Which means that what happened to VegSource may represent something more than just run-of-the-mill social friction: It could be a sign of burgeoning online tribal warfare.The two central players in the guns vs. veggies drama, Subguns and VegSource, could hardly seem more different. In one corner, we have a bunch of card-carrying NRA members who like to share pictures of themselves firing lethal weapons. In the other, we find a flood of Gaia-worshippers who flaunt photographs of pet kittens. At Subguns, the regulars ask each other arcane questions about legal restrictions on high-caliber ammunition; at VegSource, the search is on for the perfect recipe for vegan chocolate eclairs (no eggs, please!).But there are similarities, too. It's not just that passionate gun rights activists and animal-liberation freedom fighters can be capable of nearly identical forms of arrogant intolerance. Or that both Web sites employ the same freely available Web conferencing software on their message boards -- a program that makes anonymous and forged postings fairly easy. Both sites feature numerous topic-oriented message boards where there is little tumult -- but each has at least one board in which political discussion regularly leads to flame wars.Most significantly, Subguns and VegSource are both excellent examples of one of the most salient recent developments in Web life: they're topic-specific online communities that have settled next to quasi-commercial hubs. Subguns belongs to Tom Bowers, a federally licensed firearms dealer who sells rifle silencers and equipment for modifying semi-automatic weapons. VegSource is a non-profit organization, but it sells ads to support its operation and features numerous links to other commercial, vegetarian-oriented Web sites.Both sites exploit the Web's greatest strength, its nurturing embrace of niche communities. The Web makes it easy to create a home for any point of view, any particular predilection or prejudice. But the fallout from such niche-ification doesn't have to be friendly: It's just as easy to brew hate as love. Jeff and Sabrina Nelson found that out the hard way in early May.Bowers says his Web site offers one utterly unmoderated message board for general discussion of gun-related matters where "you can post any kind of offensive crap." (That message board, which was operational throughout the period during which this article was researched, went offline at almost the exact same time Salon published this article. A note Bowers posted on another message board at his site offers no explanation but says "it's going to be a few days" before the board is back up again.)"It's a service to the community," he says. "There are very few places where you can go on the Net and put anything you want up there without any form of censorship at all. Unfortunately, because it is unmoderated, it is open to trolls," says Bowers, referring to participants in an online discussion who post comments designed purposely to spark outrage. "We are getting hammered by the Nazis and the Antis [anti-gun advocates]."Nazis? Few veterans of online discourse would dare contradict the truth of Godwin's Law: the longer an online discussion grows, the more likely it is that a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler will be made. But back in 1990, when Mike Godwin formulated his law, few people (excepting Godwin himself) might have imagined that before the decade was over, actual Nazis would be raiding Web sites on a regular basis.Perhaps it was just a twisted form of Web karmic retribution that sent the white power nuts from adolfhitler.com trolling over to Subguns. Certainly there was no shortage of absurd irony to be found in watching the Subgun regulars complain about jerkish behavior by outside invaders. The whole thing could also have been a farce -- an up-to-date version of the infamous attack on the Usenet newsgroup rec.pets.cats by alt.tasteless back in 1993.Or maybe the most cynical Subgun suspicions are true, and the so-called Nazis are in reality sneaky vegetarians impersonating "white gun owners." In the aftermath of the destruction of the VegSource server, the chaos overrunning the Subguns board -- a welter of forged posts, imposters and anonymous trolls -- obliterated any chance to make sense out of the mess.You never really know what's going on out there in the uncharted wastelands of the Web, anyway. Hitler, guns and veggies; fakes, frauds and trolls: Life on the Net often seems baroque and bizarre, weirdly unrepresentative of how real life works. But all too often, online explosions can be traced back to offline catastrophes. A massacre here, an annihilated Web server there -- it's all connected.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

im with you Clay. He doesnt have to be careful about what he says as much!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Hey Doc, I think JZ is doing better now than what he was doing before!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

After 20 years in the Military and 5 years providing my services to the Law Enforcement community from local Police to the Sheriffs Dept to the State Police and the FBI on one occasion, (not counting search and rescue of 22 years) I know for a fact I could have went in and arrested Randy Weaver which a ½ inch to short barrel on a shotgun? Give me a break! And that nut case in Waco would have taken a little time but it would have been easy to do. I use to watch COPS on television but now I relate it to the WWF (World Wide Wrestling Foundation). It’s all about show and money generated for the program, pushing brute force, common since and safety for all around over the edge. I mentioned Law Enforcement. Funny thing, I never had to use force to arrest a person and they all cooperated fully with only giving me tons of tears of regret for what they did. I always told them up front they are in control of this arrest to escalate or deescalate this situation and they had two options. Option one, they don’t cooperate, I will cuff them in the back and make it a very unenjoyable ride or option two, cooperate fully and I can make it easy on the both of us and at the end of the day perhaps, both of us will be at home and I’ll even turn the radio on

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Zumbo's not doing too poorly these days, shoot I see him on the Outdoor Channel all the time. A couple weeks ago I saw him shoot a bear with a muzzle loader, last week he was trying out the new Remington semi-auto shotgun on doves in Argentina and this week he's pheasant hunting in South Dakota. I'm pretty sure Remington is sponsoring him because every time I watch he's using a Remington weapon. Outdoor Life is probably suffering more from his departure than he.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

In reference to Ruby Ridge and Waco and what Wayne LaPierre has said about the Clinton administration is absolutely true. In fact what he said is now the norm for the left wing Democratic Party. What he said back then was, “the Clinton administration allows a certain level of death and carnage to further their own agendas!” Now to include the past and 911 etc. etc. etc., I truly believe that the left has gone over the edge to their damndest to push the destruction of the United States to further their agenda…

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from Gman wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

CSC,What Dave's post has that Zumbo's rant did not is a sense of perspective, and subtlety. You can go back decades and pick whatever government action you want in demonstrating that the "people's right to peaceably assemble" is open to, uh, varying degrees of interpretation before the guys with guns on the public payroll let loose. We can go back as far as the Haymarket Riot or as recently as Kent State, if you want to show instances where folks on the left can also demonstrate legitimate gripes with The Man using deadly force needlessly.Zumbo's infamous post was, as he said, an end-of-day-boy-am-I-tired rant; the kind of thing that in the old days a crusty editor woulda probably said, "Uh, Jim, this is a little weak in supporting evidence; sure you wanna send it?" But alas, them days are gone forever, and Zumbo, he gone, too.Interestingly enough, the Zumbo Incident could have been an opportunity for the "sporting press" to undergo agonizing self-appraisal, and ask itself if it was committed to providing a credible and authoritative voice in the 2A debate, a voice Wayne LaPierre and Sarah Brady both could read and be equally pissed off - which is the acid test of a good news story. Unfortunately, I haven't seen that yet. Zumbo's crucifixion was the most visible example of a closed community in which the voices of reason are more often cheerleaders than Dutch uncles.But feel free to disagree - as many of the guys on here will attest, as will my cousins, I am the camp liberal. I bring red wine to camp; but it is American grown and bottled.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

CSCWhat do you have against free speech? There are lots of comments above that I don't agree with and I know that most of the other writers disagree with either some or all that I've said. That shouldn't preclude anyone from writing.YooperJack

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from commonsense conservative wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Funny good ol David Petzal would comment on this. I would imagine with his track record he would want to steer clear of any type of gun control issues since he threw all the gun owners under the bus. A few years back. But I am sure he got his own honary pair of black jack boots for helping the democrats infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights. What I do not understand how every one can crucify Zumbo and yet give this guy a pass when he was and is every bit as bad or worse.

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from Eldon Dickens wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Jason, sorry, but I still think you just don't get it.Force is allowed in the service of a warrant only under certain circumstances. (Otherwise, the officers have to politely knock. The alternative is a "no-knock" entry.) A special circumstance of officer danger is certainly one set of those circumstances. I hate to repeat this ad nauseum, but Koresh was very seriously mentally ill and his people had bought into it. They were expecting a violent apocolyptic confrontation with the Federal government. BATFE -- as well as the FBI -- were fully aware of this. Thus, the real danger to the cops was if the Feds handed the Davidians the confrontation they expected, complete with black-suited special agents, black guns, and black helicopters -- and that's just what BATFE did. Then, the negotiators for the FBI admittidly lost their objectivity and failed to find a resolution. Every cop, state, local, Federal, I've heard talk about it, personally or professionally, says it is not the way to serve a warrant. If all the Davidians had known was that two suits were walking up to the compound, what would have been the problem with the Davidians knowing they were coming? Answer: none.Yes, Jason, you don't shoot cops, no matter what. You also don't send cops out to attck civilians. And you forget the mental illness. These people didn't see cops coming, they saw the devil incarnate coming, the apocolypse coming, a God-ordained prophecy coming true that required them to literally confront the evil their delusions saw or burn forever in Hell. Again, BATFE and the FBI both knew this was the situation they were walking into. BATFE let the press know, for its own purposes, and the secret got out with the inevitable consequences. They also shot some of their own people. It's not the way to serve a warrant, not legally, not morally, not practically. I don't blame the cops; the responsibility lies a little higher on the feeding chain.A real danger to us all is if it becomes established at law that the mere presence of firearms, say in a locked gun collection, is sufficient justification for police use of deadly force. But institutionally that's the way BATFE is paid to think.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Newton's third law of motion controls the universe, thus tying in OJ, DWB, Murrah, Ruby Ridge, Waco, jack booted thugs, the G-man who cancelled his NRA membership and another G-man who had a different view at the time and has a radio show and may have originated the phrase we are all discussing. I can rant and rave too can't I? And I do appreciate being able to do it without fear from a tyrannical government. God Bless America...

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Yooper dont feel bad. I live outside of Crime Bluff,AR the fourth most dangerous city in the whole U.S.A. Dont go there unless I have to!

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

ThomasYou said it all! While I never would leave the state, I'm embarrassed when I talk to my "Redneck Friends". No one out of state can believe the incompetence here. They talk about unemployment problems of 6 per cent. The folks in Lansing keep talking like their going to attract some large computer company to move here. Its not going to happen. The only light I see at the end of this tunnel is this bioenergy, where we make diesel fuel or just electricity from treetops. Otherwise, I would consider moving.

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Yooperjack,Are we blown away yet?

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Yooperjack,Trust me I fully remember Gohome's day 1 in office when she took a chain saw to everything. The schools is my number 1 beef with her. There have been more schools closed down in the last 5 years then in the entire history of Michigan. Her budget cuts have forced more teacher's in to unemployment and retirement then have been hired in the last 100 years. I do not think there is a county in Michigan that has not had to let teachers go because they could not afford to employ them. I know of school systems that have had to close down for a couple of days just so they could pay the teachers. The 180 days of school have been shortened to around 165. All the extra curricular activities have been cut like Art, Music and Gym classes. A lot of the sports programs have been eliminated. Just last year alone the Saginaw City schools let go 110 teachers and closed down 8 elemetry and junior high schools. So instead of having 20 kids per class it is now 30 or 35 in some class rooms.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Hey buckstopper I live In Wright. Kill ducks in my in my back yard. Real small world huh?

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from buckstopper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

GregI'm from Pine Bluff, I now live in the Metro B'ham area. I will be in Stuttgart real soon to shoot greenheads.

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from Troy S. wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Back to Dave's original assertion:"Jack booted thugs originated in a 1995 fund-raising letter written by Wayne LaPierre."Nope. Not exactly...That phrase, which infuriated many NRA card carrying government types, was actually uttered during the mid 80's. I can't cite certain proof but I was standing in the living room of a retired G-Man when he threw up his hands after hearing it reiterated on the nightly newscast and immediately went to the phone and called the NRA's home office and gave them hell over the phone and canceled his life membership- a membership he had for nearly 3 decades.If memory serves, it was originally made during an NRA convention. Whether it was LaPierre or not, I do not know. But some reporter repeated it and played it up for the newsies.Too bad, too. That former G-man is a good patriot who has done a lot for his community, family and friends. We could use his support. Be interesting to know how many of these we lost due to loose lips and unengaged brains.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Mark-1I think the problem that you are addressing is the inadequacy of the LA court system, combined with a star struck judge. I honestly believe that, had you been sitting in that courtroom as the defendant, with the same evidence, you would be writing from death row right now.The other three cases described all had incompetence in the execution and corruption in the coverup.ThomasI'll make a point to wave at the Sabreline trucks as I pass them. I might even see you at a truck stop because I burn diesel.The only reason Jennifer Grandholm got re-elected is LIES!Prior to the election, every statement she made included the phrase "We've turned the corner Michigans economy is on the rise." The ink on the ballots was still wet when, as soon as she knew she'd won, she started looking at what she could cut. Unfortunately, a lot of morons, including just about everyone with a press pass, believed her.YooperJack

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Yooperjack,Yeah I drive one of the Sabreline Transport trucks going back and forth down US 2 and 40. I kinda wonder my self why we can't get rid of some of the undesireables in office here in Michigan. Down here in Troll land we have or had Dem Jim Barcia from Bay City. I think he was one of the few Democrats that the NRA endorsed from Michigan. What I can't understand is how Grandholm got reelected. Nobody that I have ever spoken with voted for her.I heard rumors that she had Detroit Mayor Kwamie Fitzpatric stuff the ballot boxes for her down there. If anyone is a Jackbooted Thug it would be Fitzpatrick and Canadian Gov. Grandholm is not far behind him.Some times I think she was a Viking the way she has Raped, Plundered and Pillaged Michigan.Sorry People: but our illustrious elected Govener boils my blood. And if I don't vent once in a while I just might do something stupid and ruin it for everyone.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Missing the point, Yooper J.Corruption: What it is. How it manifests itself. How it thrives. How the People let Authority know they've had enough, That jury stuck it up the Establishment's butt and broke it off. That was what the OJ Trial did IMHO.I've seen local juries do the same thing.Gov't ignores strong statements like that at great hazard.

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from RBA wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

The fact that some of you take precautions to ensure that you're not on someone else's list tells something about the current state of our government and the trust we no longer have for them/it. A trust that at one time was almost automatic. no pun intended.My 70 year old mother use to be one who unwaveringly trusted the gov't to do what was right 'no matter what'.She no longer holds that opinion. I believe it is a growing trend.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I think we all agree on the root issue here. Someone has to be held responsible when these actions go astray and nobody ever or seldom is.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Hey I think we can all agree that mistakes were made in both these cases, and the two other cases that people interjected (OJ and Kathryn Johnston) I think Dave Petzal was trying to make a point that the feds get heavy handed when faced with opposition, especially by gun owners. Their reactions are irrational but few, if any, of the feds get punished for mistakes. I think that another point made by lotsa folks was the incompetence of AG Janet Reno, who personally oversaw both of these operations. While the Kathryn Johnston case is very similar, it was a local event and the local authorities have taken steps to ensure that the event is not repeated. I can't see where the OJ case has any bearing on this discussion. He was tried before a jury that wouldn't have convicted him no matter what the evidence.

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from Dave in St Pete wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Greg,You have not offened me. I agree with debate.As you dislike anti-gov comments, I dislike making excuses for something that should never have happened and was handled in a criminal way by our gov.The government at both Ruby Ridge and Waco simply murdured those prople and we must not forget that.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

i dont get on these blogs to offend anyone, if I have my apologies. Healthy debate is a good thig. Im glad we have a plce to debate the issue in a friendly manner. I respect all of you and your opinions.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

You have a point Dave. As I said before this was monumental incompetence. And those babies didnt have to die. Its just the anti-gov. comments get me fired up. Its far from perfect but it is still the best in the world. Hell some of these comments would get you executed in some countries!

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from Dave in St Pete wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Greg,Proof? Was that what the warrent was for or did they even have one? And as pointed out, they could have simply arrested him in town.Of course those babies won't have to worry about being abused any longer...THEY'RE DEAD!

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Doc ya scare me a little.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

You folks should look at the proverbial forest on DP’s rant here.Any time you have organizations, individuals, or institutions being abusive and contemptuous while advancing the perception they are acting within and according to the Law is Corruption.Best example is O.J. Trial. The jury didn’t find O.J. innocent as much as they found LAPB guilty of corruption.Government Elites hate it when the Masses make such a strong statement. It shows them where the real power is and who they work for

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Well the bright side is the kids won't be raped anymore... this was a Big Brother scare tactic. Hell just hiring Janet Reno was a scare tactic... have you looked at the lady? They just wanted everyone to know that they could and would burn your children and get away with it. They didn't scare McVeigh, but that's another story.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I agree Dr. Ralph that the deaths were unnecessary, Yeah here comes the but! Koresh was a sick son of a bit@# baby raper! Thats what laws Dave!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Jason, it's been reported hundreds of times that Koresh went to town every month to get a hair cut... same time, same place. Everybody knew his habits and there was absolutely no reason to burn a bunch of babies to catch this guy.

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from Dave in St Pete wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Jason,Just what laws had they broken that called for a use of force?Had they killed or kidnapped someone?

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from Jason wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Eldon,I have to disagree about 2 cops walking up. The davidians knew that the ATF was coming via the mailman who tipped them off. This was about 4 hours before the conflict. It was at that time they choose to prepare to resist the assault. You can take the defend them anyway you like, but you pull a gun on a cop and there is going to be trouble. Like or don't like what the ATF did there I don't think anybody would argue that you don't shoot cops. Period. I am a bit inflexable on that.The point I was trying to make was that the Davidians were making all the calls and the ATF/FBI were only able to respond to them until the final episode. It is a sad thing that they all died, but it was a situation of thier own making.Tactically speaking I don't suppose any commander would give up the element of surprise to see if they would respond to 2 local law enforcement. Considering the response they did get it is hard to argue against that point. I do believe that during the intial assualt that the ATF did not have enough people going in because they failed to take the building. If they would have increased the number of agents going in the stand off and the resulting fire would have never happened. The use of force in that situation should have been overwhelming.

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from Eldon Dickens wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Emmanuel, I appreciate your situation and, having done a little journalism myself, understand what you face. I commend you for your independence in the newsroom.Anon, you ought to consider what Emmanuel and GMan have said. You are already on lots of lists and those probably record a lot of your interests, including guns. Since lists are shared, you're probably on the NRA's list. Might as well send them a check and be hung as a wolf rather than a sheep -- or goat.Jason: Sir, in all respect, you are wrong. What you describe is not arrest, but murder. One of BATFE's major problems is that it is more interested in publicity than police work. Two officers in suits could have walked up to the front door of the Davidian compound and simply asked Koresh to come down the office and answer some strange rumors they'd heard: no confrontation, no violence, no one hurt, no reason to get anyone excited. It's called police work. Again, Koresh was mentally ill, seriously mentally ill. As you said, the Branch Dividians just reacted to BATFE's show of force -- but anyone could have predicted that reaction.Jason, you almost seem to anticipate others' arguments that all bureaucracy is necessarily destructive of life, limb and fortune. Your attitude sounds just as inflexible. I've known a number of cops. Worked with them when I was a victim's advocate and legal secretary. Cops got me interested in hunting, guns and target shooting. They're a great bunch of people, all different, all individuals. Not one that I ever knew would want to hurt anybody, no matter how bad an offender. Despite that, they are ready and willing to put their lives on the line if necessary, but not one of them wanted to be in a shooting incident -- and doing so would be very difficult for them. Amd there is no reason for agency administrators put to cops' -- or civilians' -- lives on the line unnecessarily -- whether its for publicity, or just to "make a statement." Sir, you cannot bluff your way through bullets.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Hey Thomas, I probably pass you on US 2 all the time.I guess I was kind of reflecting why we have the Senators in Michigan that we elected, then reading all of the posts from the Southern Folk, then thinking maybe I'm the only one that votes against these people. We do have an excellent Representative up here though in Bart Stupak. He's a Democrat and has a very good record with 2A.

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from Bump wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

The thing I find encouraging is that people REMEMBER what happened. Today there are so many attempts to rewrite history, that it gives me a warm feeling to read lucid comments about incidents that happened 10+years ago. That is what gives me hope that this country will do the right thing next year at election time. I also use my right hand to indicate where I live.PS Thanks to emannuel and gman for the info on the IP & IPS

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from dickgun wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Many years ago, feeling the need for a firearm insurance policy I prepared a list of all my guns, including the requested serial numbers and was about to send it to NRA to enroll in their insurance program. NRA does not write the insurance of course. They contract with an insurance company to provide the policies. On reflection I became concerned that the first thing that would happen to my gun list was to be entered in a computer program at the insurance company and God knows what confidentiality that would provide. I called NRA and expressed my concern and apparently I was not the only one who had concerns. I was informed that they were revising their insurance policies for firearms and that henceforth there would be no serial numbers required. It is the only firearms insurance policy that I have been able to find that does not require serial numbers.

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

YooperJack,You and Gman are not the only Yanks here. Don't make me hold out me hold out my right hand and point to where I live. But I suppose that is better then having to unzip my pants. Ha Ha just kidding Florida. I travel to Menominee and go through Escanaba and Manistique all the time. Although the Big Bridge gets a little hairy when it is windy out.But at least this time of year I do not have to worry about the Fudgies getting in my way. Just the Terrorist from Ohio going snowmobiling.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Are Gman and me thye only Yanks here? I think Dave Petzal lives in New York also. Not that I feel lonely or anything. I need snow every year. Snake repellant!YooperJack

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from Thomas wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Dave,A very good fiction book on this subject is "Unintended Consequences" by "John Ross" I think you and all your readers of this blog would really enjoy it. Although I don't condone the extreme measures that they use. Something needs to be done.

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from Dirty Butch wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

The term was actually used by my friend G. Gordon Liddy on his radio talk show in 1984 while describing a raid on his home before he went to prison.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

It was Absolute Incompetence. Someone in charge should have been prosecuted and imprisoned for the gross negligence.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Thats B'Ham aint it? Get this I was born in Jefferson Co. KY. Im from south Alabama. Where in AR did you live buckstopper?

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Thats B'Ham aint it? Get this I was born in Jefferson Co. KY. Im from south Alabama. Where in AR did you live buckstopper?

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from buckstopper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Like I said earlier, incompetance lead to the Waco disaster.Greg, I was raised in Jefferson CoArk, I now live in Jefferson Co. AL. its a small blog after all.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I'm with Red... it's almost like an Andy Griffith episode. Just let the local police know what's up. They live there, they are familiar with the habits of their people, and they have a sense of connection with what's going on. When the feds take jurisdiction over state and local enforcement bad things happen. They are not military, they are not trained like our military and yet they are given the weapons and they act like kids in a candy store... once more this brings me back to state's rights. The closer the problem solvers are to the problem the better the solution.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Red Woods:You went a long way to back DEP on this one. Its pretty obvious that Clinton wanted to make this into a national story and greatly succeeded! If anyone had any "onions" in a debate, this question would be asked of Mrs. Bill Clinton.Thanks,YooperJack

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from Red Woods wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

The first stupid move was that Koresh was not arrested on one of his many trips to town. The local LEO made this point several times in the investigation of the incident.Catch him on the road into town and take him back to the compound in custody and that whole thing would have went well. It always makes me mad when I read that police introduce tear gas and claim they don't know why the place burned down.The poor leadership and decision making from armchair command that doesn't listen to the guys that do the job. Two cars of street smart officers would have stopped the guy on the road and the job would have been done.Red Woods

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I like him a lot too! He seems to inspire confidence in me.Popular opinion among the pundits is that he can't win. NY and CA people will never vote for a Southern Baptist Minister. I'm about ready to call their bluff! I like the guy! He didn't say anything, in that 2 hours of torture, that made me feel uneasy.I believe that, in a one on one debate format, he would chew up and spit out, anyone whom he is running against.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Yooper, Call me crazy but I sure am lookin hard at M.Huckabee.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Emmanual, Gman:Thank you very much for the info! That went a long way to making me feel better aboput my computer. I use Google a lot and I'm into internet map sites daily so they probably know who I am.I'm really not that worried. I was curious. I would be more worried under an administration that was definitely anti-gun. As such, I'm doing whatever I can to help any pro 2A candidate.

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from Mike wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

i shall NEVER forget...Simply points to WHY we have the second and why the second is SO important.If the jack boot fits.....

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from Jason wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

In the case of the Branch Davidians, they knew that the govt. was coming to serve arrest warrants. Instead of turning themselves over or even taking flight to avoid prosecution they took up arms to fend off the arrests. It was their actions that dictated the violence that day. The only thing the ATF did wrong was not attack with more people.The 51 day siege that you discribed would have been much better described as a 51 day negotions. Where the government went through many efforts to get the Branch Davidians to surrender. They refused to come out peacefully.This mission did not go as planned and their was mistakes made along the way, but everything was the result of the desions made by David Koresh and the people who chose to follow him.

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from Gman wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Emmanuel,Did you see the op-ed piece by Garrett Graff in yestiddy's WaPost about how ignorant the candidates are about tech? So sad I laughed and laughed..mostly that this ignorance has not hit the mainstream press except in the most egregious circumstances. I've been making hay off of it for years in the little-read but august tech pubs I write for.Maybe the gumshoes haven't been taught the differences between dynamic and static IP addresses yet. That would slow things up a tad for 'em if they were fishin' without a clue to start with.

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from Gman wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Emmanuel,Did you see the op-ed piece by Garrett Graff in yestiddy's WaPost about how ignorant the candidates are about tech? So sad I laughed and laughed..mostly that this ignorance has not hit the mainstream press except in the most egregious circumstances. I've been making hay off of it for years in the little-read but august tech pubs I write for.Maybe the gumshoes haven't been taught the differences between dynamic and static IP addresses yet. That would slow things up a tad for 'em if they were fishin' without a clue to start with.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

To Zermoid. If Im not mistaken David Koresh was a baby raper!

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from Jason wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Keep writing about topics related to the 2nd Ammendment Dave. I have a feeling there is a battle up ahead for us gun owners. We aren't nearly vocal enough. We have put up with other people protesting us too long. We need to start protesting in front of the offices of Anti-Gun and Anti-hunting groups instead of sitting idly by and listening to them.

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from Emmanuel wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Yooper,In the Kathryn Johnston case, two of the officers involved have pleaded guilty to manslaughter and face sentencing soon. Johnston's family has also brought a civil suit against the city, the officers and the chief of police.Here's a link to the Atlanta Journal Constitution story from which I've drawn my information; I should have included it before:http://www.ajc.com/wireless/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/11/21/elderly_1122.htmlEven if folks are held accountable -- if all the officers go to jail and the family is awarded a large sum of money -- Kathryn Johnston is still dead, and it was still her own government that killed her. Her own tax dollars paid for the bullets with which she was shot. There can only be so much "justice" when this is the case.Since I write about technology for a living, I'd also like to add something about online privacy to what Gman has already said.You should consider everything you say and do on the Internet as public record, unless you take some special precautions to conceal your identity. Here's why:Your computer has a special number assigned to it called your IP address. Your Internet service provider (also called your ISP, it's whomever you buy your Internet service from) knows that number, and has it associated with your physical address.Every time you use Google or most other search engines, the search company logs your IP address and what you searched for.Let's say Uncle Sam wants to keep an eye on all the folks who have Googled ".50 BMG" or "AR-15" or "how to make a rifle silencer" in the past six months. All Uncle Sam has to do is call up Google for a list of IP addresses that match those terms and then call up a few ISPs to ask for another, separate list of IP addresses attached to names and physical addresses. Then Uncle Sam puts everything into an SQL data base, and a computer program spits out the places in which the two sets of lists match, i.e. the names and address of all the folks who have searched for those "dangerous" weapons and such.Unlike 20 years ago, a stupefying amount of information about any one of us resides on a number of hard drives. Companies such as Google amass loads of data on your online habits in order to better predict what you'll buy and what you'll want to search for.Companies do this because such information is tremendously valuable to marketers and advertisers, who will in turn pay good money for access to it. Google happens to be very secretive about what kind of information it has, how much information it has, and just what it does with its information.Because technology companies have recorded all this information about us, the government, if it is so inclined, can eventually get at it, legally or otherwise. Does anyone remember the Total Information Awareness program from a few years ago?As Gman mentioned, our best hope is that the federal government is too incompetent to do something so simple.

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from Zermoid wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

How long will it be until all people with religious beliefs are branded as "religious fanatics" "nuts" or worse?Bottom line is there is no hard proof that I've ever heard of that the Branch Davidians were anything more than a religious group that believed in self defense.And Randy Weaver was the victim of Govt entrapment from the git go.Remember the saying, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" and remember the govt DOES have absolute power.Also believe there is NO Constitutional "Gun Control", as the Constitution says "the right to bear ARMS" with no limitations on what type of arms, why do rifles have to be a certain length and under a certain size? ANY ARMS should be legal, if you wanted to carry a LAW rocket it SHOULD be OK as far as the Constitution is concerned. My Opinion anyways.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I aint goin anywhere either. Im a hard headed redneck of the BEST kind. Ill stick it out just to spite her!

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Greg:If you read anything I wrote in the earlier blogs, you didn't hafta ask! I'm deathly afraid of poisonous snakes! I don't think there are any in Canada.Seriously, I survived LBJ, Jimmy Carter (that was hard!) and bilary 1. I guess I'll handle the encore. I've got too many friends in both Michigan and the U.S. to ever leave. Also, the people who say their leaving (usually GWB bashers) can afford to leave. But they always come back.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Well Yoop if Billary wins where are you movin Canada or Mexico? I havent made up my mind yet. Saw a real interesting piece on Mike Huckabee last night on night line. Anyone else see it?

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Well Said WAM!While there has been a lot said about GWB's abuse of powers, even his most vehement critics have said that He's used them to catch international and domestic terrorists.A couple of the smartest pundits I hear are saying that Mrs. Bill Clinton has an 80 per cent chance of being the next POTUS. Probably 98 per cent of us will have voted against her.We saw, on the CNN debate, how we are potrayed. We are crazy to begin with. Our Southern brothers are radical right wingers who are still fighting the Civil War. That's what I got from watching that two hours of torture!Anyway, C_S asked earlier, why we were discussing this. I think its a very important topic.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

All those stated are good reasons to belong to the NRA. I'm a life member and proud of it.There is some security in numbers. The Walker's and Davidians were small potatoes and easy to manage. Not so with several million NRA members.

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from DR wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

If being a religious wacko was against the law, why haven't the Mormon Tabernacle and the national Mosque been sieged?FBI snipers are pretty good, so take that into consideration when you hole up.

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from Tom Glidden wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Thank you for the reminder; I will never forget how my government is capable of reacting in these confrontational situations.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Emmanual:What was the disposition of the Kathryn Johnston case? Were any officers charged, convicted, fired? Were any lawsuits filed by her next of kin? You said it received national publicity and yet, I never heard about it before.Notwithstanding, this was an event planned and executed by the Atlanta Police Department. Ruby Ridge and Waco were planned and executed by the Department of Justice and we know that the people ultimately responsible were never held accountable.YooperJack

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from Michael wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Ruby Ridge, the Waco incident, and a host of other incompetent BATF incidents that do not make the major news is why every legal gun owner should support the NRA. They are the last defense against more firearms restrictions that affect only the law-abiding citizen. The press today is only interested in sensationalism; they have forgotten the tenet of "The truth shall set you free."

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from Gman wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I don't think you have to worry about your privacy on the board, Yooper, at least not as far as the government making a list and checking it twice.Given that the cybersecurity department of DHS is and always has been a Keystone Kops operation, I don't think they'd be trolling on the F&S blogs as a likely spot for terrorism possibilities, foreign or domestic. Legitimate terror threats don't usually hide in such plain sight.Everything I hear about the warrantless wiretaps is that they have so much information they are just drowning in it, and more likely would have to prioritize, most likely like this:1. They go to a telco provider and say, "Gimme all your emails sent out on x date."2. They get the emails and check all the incoming and outgoing addresses; they would likely want to go deeper if they saw that somebody had emailed a server in the Middle East or in a European or Asian nation known to harbor Al Qaeda.I think the more likely annoyance with any list the NRA has is that they sell the list to all kinds of marketing types who then clutter up your mailbox with junk mail. I think (don't want to say for sure) that before the Feds could get a member's name it would have to be through a subpoena - and even then, I think a NRA members' list would be way down the list of resources of incriminating evidence; a BATF 4473 would be far quicker in tracking down the party of interest.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Koresh and the adult followers in the compound were nuts! The children were abused innocents. Although i defend law enforcement this action was a farce and some one in charge should have been held responsible.

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from Milton Burton wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

The excuse that they were trying to protect the children in the Waco compound won't was for the simple reason that the ATF has absolutely NO jurisdiction over child abuse/neglect--it is the provence of the state. Things can get wild and wooly in Texas at times, but I have never seen our Child Protective Services use flack gear and armored vehicles to investigate complaints.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I said I could have spent the night in jail. I DID spend the night in jail, sorry for the mistake.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Impressed with your comment at 8:57. you tend to be alittle more inflammatory at times. Absolutely no offense intended.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Just that. A simple Question. Some people that have comments about law enforcement here seem to have a bad taste in their mouths about them. I could have spent the night in jail because of 1 empty beer can about 4 years ago. I was bitter for a while. come to find out this guy was one of the bad ones I spoke of.

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from Tommy wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Impressed with what?

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I think we nailed Bubba!!LOL

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I am impressed Tommy, not that my opinion is anything but that.

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from Tommy wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Most police officers I have met in my life were great people. As has been posted above, there are bad seeds in any arena.What is the nature of your question Greg?

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

By the way I live in jefferson county AR. Someone burned the Sheriff', under construction, house down last night.

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from Tommy wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

All I can say from the above posts, is that it is a bit comforting to know that many citizens, in positions of varying degrees of importance; from the likes of writers, retired military and police, lawyers and even laborers, keep their eyes open in regards to that they ultimately support.Whether you are in any of the aforementioned professions, you do support the government that governs you by your role in society, the job you perform, the taxes you pay.And the guilt we swallow at times.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

What do you think about cops Tommy?

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from Tommy wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Bubba. The writing style is too identical.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I think Iknow who you are Anon. Am I Right?

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Some thoughts that may or may not be interrelated. I’ve made a considerable personal investment to my country and government. I support and depend upon my government, but I’ve learned through observation and experience to trust my government as far as I can toss one of my horses. There’s always unfriendly policies changes.My Theory of any government is they are all bureaucracies that will attack any action, person, and group that threaten its existence. The minute a “Weaver” and Waco situation, an 1840 Mormon-type group, Indian tribal type situation, or a 911 event raises its head the Bureaucracy will crush the challenge to protect its existence.Something to remember when you pick a fight with Government.

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from GREG wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

You get any group of people together you get some bad seeds. As far as law enforcement goes, I wouldnt take there job for any amount of money. There will be some that abuse their power.For the 99% of them it is a job they love, actually helping their community. We can pick out bad preachers, teachers and grandmothers. There also will be bad cops.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Anon made some good points. I don't know a lot about computers, Internet, etc. Did Anon (and all of the rest of us) cede the privacy that he or she cherishes by posting that comment? I'm asking because I honestly don't know. Gman, are you out there?YooperJack

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from Anon wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

EmmanuelHere's a thought.I am a gun nut!I support the NRA!I do not belong to the NRA!Why? If the powers that be decided they wanted to grab firearms, who would have the largest list of known gun owners?Would the NRA ever give up such a list? I don't know, but it's a chance I just really don't want to take. Once a year, I send the NRA the price of a one year membership, no name or address attached.Anon

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from Emmanuel wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

The abuses of power and astounding failures that David is talking about didn't end at Waco. They're still happening.Take the case of Kathryn Johnston, a 92-year-old Atlanta woman who lived in a bad neighborhood and kept a pistol on hand for defense. A little more than a year ago, corrupt and incompetent police officers attempted to raid her house, serving a "no knock" warrant and looking for drugs. Here's how the Atlanta Journal Constitution tells it:"A fearful Johnston apparently thought the police were criminals and brought out an old gun to stop the intruders. She fired one shot and missed. Police fired 39 times, fatally injuring her and wounding other officers.They handcuffed Johnston as she lay dying, and then several officers attempted to plant marijuana in the house to cover up the mistake.They falsified reports to make it look as though drug dealing had occurred in the house.The fiasco caused national headlines and led to a federal investigation of Atlanta police, and an almost yearlong hiatus on police efforts to shut down drug houses. The city's reborn narcotics unit, made up of entirely new officers, began investigating drug houses in October."The peace officers I've known personally were decent and honest men doing work they believed in. They would never have fired a weapon unless it was absolutely necessary to protect their own lives or the lives of others.But among any ranks there will inevitably be some jackbooted thugs. And some of those thugs are issued guns. On top of that, the people charged with prosecuting the thugs when the thugs mess up and kill innocent people answer to the same boss as the thugs.Blessedly, these situations don't happen often. But when they do, there are two options: You can be armed or unarmed. The people who wrote our Constitution preferred the former to the latter.To Eldon,My excuse for not joining the NRA is that I'm a member of the media. For rank-and-file newspaper reporters, joining any political group is a swift and sure way to end your career prospects amid accusations of "bias" from all sides.Instead of joining the NRA, I'm often the lone voice in the newsroom raising hell when something inaccurate or misleading is written about firearms. I'm also the one constantly advocating for fair coverage of the folks who enjoy them.

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from Eldon Dickens wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Koresh was seriously mentally ill. In this country, mental illness is a defense against prosecution, if the illness is serious enough. A conviction might have been difficult, certainly would have been problematic. And then there was the issue of protecting the innocent people who had come to share Koresh's insanity. However, this was not on BATFE's agenda. Apparently, by some coincidence, gun control legislation concerning .50 rifles and "machine guns" was coming up in Congress -- and the Davidians were rumored to have such deadly weapons against which BATFE probably though there should be even more laws. A fellow by the name of David T. Hardy has written about BATFE abuses and also I believe Waco. His books are hard to find, but interlibrary loans can usually get them. He also has a blog, Of Arms and the Law.The NRA ad in question was a very big, bad mistake. It resulted in a great deal of very negative publicity, none of which neither the NRA nor we needed. If your opponent is playing the "extremist" card, the last thing you want to do is pull a Goldwater and do what you can to reinforce the accusations. Instead, you want to look rational and sound factual and logical. Namecalling is always a dangerous game. Calling peace officers names, even those such as produced by BATFE, is never going to be a winning strategem. The NRA ad consultants not only made the NRA look foolish, but anti-law and order -- which is also one of the gun control lobby tactics.Take a look at the crowd who responds to this blog. There's a bunch who, despite being dyed-in-the-wool gun nuts (that including me.), a whole bunch don't support the NRA (I'm a Life member). Maybe half of them think the NRA is too extreme, never compromises, and rigidly opposes gun control not matter how reasonable it sounds. The other half thinks the NRA isn't exreme enough, compromises our rights too much, and actually likes and supports gun control. They can't both be right. (Neither are.) If you own guns and believe in the Second Amendment, what's your excuse for not supporting the NRA? Of course, you don't have any friends except those who agree with you 100%. You never go to church because the pastor always preaches some kind of baloney theology. You've divorced a dozen wives because they never cook the way you want them to -- and they're expensive. So, you've got a similarly good excuse for not being an NRA member, right?Totalrecoil's comment about John Dingell surprises me. Dingell was for a long time a membe of the NRA board of directors. He often defied his party bosses to oppose gun control and support hunting. For a long time he had an A+ rating from the ILA. What's behind your negative comments, Total?

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from John wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

This government, like every single other government of the world, commits attrocities against its own people and against those of other countries, and gets away with it scott free 99.9999% of the time. And that will never, ever stop. And we should never, ever stop pointing it out and trying to do something about it.

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from Mike Strehlow wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

A few days ago I was accused of near lunacy for saying that our civilization was fragile. I didn't mean that the US Govt. was going anywhere any time soon; I meant civilized behavior was fragile. This topic ties in.It is amazing how fast riots start when a court case goes wrong. It is amazing how fast looters turn out when the big storm hits and the power goes off. Faster than you would think possible for civilized people.It is amazing how scared Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidians got when the govt. came for them. But they are individuals or small groups of individuals. Jack booted thugs applies to government agents who are acting on behalf of the laws of this country, who have a situation completely under control, and who act like trigger happy idiots anyway. Randy Weaver wasn't going anywhere, yet Lon Horiuchi blasted his wife. The whole Branch Davidian mess was unneccessary; the govt. was essentially there to serve a search warrant. Waco residents wonder to this day why someone wearing a suit and tie didn't just walk up to the front door of their compound, ring the doorbell, and hand the warrant to Koresh personally, rather than going in shooting that first day. There is no record that there were any illegal guns in the place; the govt. changed its story to protecting the children within from child abuse well into the siege. Having killed and burned them all, I would say that the govt. was successful in keeping them from being abused by Koresh after that.Why wasn't Janet Reno fired? Ask Bill Clinton; only the president can summarily fire an attorney general. While you are at it, ask Janet Reno why she as attorney general didn't file charges against Clinton for a dozen different crimes in office, none of them having to do with bimbos. Then add two and two.I do not lie awake at night in fear of my country's govt.; the USA is still the best place on earth to be. In my limited experience I've seen nothing from our military but cool, appropriate responses. But when the government rouses out a couple of hundred uniformed, armed, and armored non-military types who answer to a flexible chain of command, with the idea that they are supposed to make sense of a civil situation, I say keep your heads down. Even yours, Tommy.

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from Mike Strehlow wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

A few days ago I was accused of near lunacy for saying that our civilization was fragile. I didn't mean that the US Govt. was going anywhere any time soon; I meant civilized behavior was fragile. This topic ties in.It is amazing how fast riots start when a court case goes wrong. It is amazing how fast looters turn out when the big storm hits and the power goes off. Faster than you would think possible for civilized people.It is amazing how scared Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidians got when the govt. came for them. But they are individuals or small groups of individuals. Jack booted thugs applies to government agents who are acting on behalf of the laws of this country, who have a situation completely under control, and who act like trigger happy idiots anyway. Randy Weaver wasn't going anywhere, yet Lon Horiuchi blasted his wife. The whole Branch Davidian mess was unneccessary; the govt. was essentially there to serve a search warrant. Waco residents wonder to this day why someone wearing a suit and tie didn't just walk up to the front door of their compound, ring the doorbell, and hand the warrant to Koresh personally, rather than going in shooting that first day. There is no record that there were any illegal guns in the place; the govt. changed its story to protecting the children within from child abuse well into the siege. Having killed and burned them all, I would say that the govt. was successful in keeping them from being abused by Koresh after that.Why wasn't Janet Reno fired? Ask Bill Clinton; only the president can summarily fire an attorney general. While you are at it, ask Janet Reno why she as attorney general didn't file charges against Clinton for a dozen different crimes in office, none of them having to do with bimbos. Then add two and two.I do not lie awake at night in fear of my country's govt.; the USA is still the best place on earth to be. In my limited experience I've seen nothing from our military but cool, appropriate responses. But when the government rouses out a couple of hundred uniformed, armed, and armored non-military types who answer to a flexible chain of command, with the idea that they are supposed to make sense of a civil situation, I say keep your heads down. Even yours, Tommy.

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from Totalrecoil wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Dave: El-Wazir is correct that it was Rep. John Dingell that had used the phrase "Jackbooted American fascists" prior to LaPierre's letters. Actually Dingell's characterization was nastier.The NRA wrote a letter to President Bush after he resigned from the NRA which can be seen at http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/firearms/enforce/nra_thug.htmlIn the end, Dingell proved to be no friend to gun owners or the NRA.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Couple of thoughts:Mrs Bill Clinton apparently personally selected Janet Reno to be the Attorney General. At no time did anyone suggest that she was the most competent person available. She fit the profile. I believe that David Koresh was ultimately the person most responsible for the Waco Massecre. However, the feds went in there with no regard for anyone's safety. While I blame Koresh, why hasn't anyone from the press asked HRC about this incident?When I first read Dave's Post, I wondered, why now? I'm glad he put this up. These would be excellent talking points for the next debate.The Weaver case always seemed more sinister. When I feel paranoid, I think about that. I never believed what I read about that. It almost seemed like someone in the Government had it out for Randy and was going to get him, guilty or not. Maybe Mrs. Bill Clinton could enlighten us on that case also.YooperJack

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from Concerned_Soldier wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Dave,Could you have picked a more heated topic, maybe Abortion or the death penalty?GUNs, GUNs, GUNs, okay Firearms for you word Nazis!! Oh sorry, bad reference timing.How they shoot, Where to shoot them, fun stuff like that Dave.I have heard enough of the other stuff on the news. This, that and the other thing went bad today...Your a Vet and a writer, a good one at that, write about GUNs. Not Ruby Ridge and the Waco Cult!! Hindsight is 20/20But then again, it is your Blog!! You fought for the right, you might as well use your 1st Admendment. Who better, then someone who has paid for it.Which is a helluva alot more then we can say about some people.V/RC_S

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Let's see, Randy Weaver cut the barrel off a shotgun 1/2" too short for Big Brother's tastes. At the request of an undercover FBI agent let us not forget. His court papers were incorrect and so he didn't show up at the appointed time. Their appointed time, not the one they gave him... Seems reason enough to shoot his wife in the head while holding his infant child after spending over $1,000,000 of our money on surveillance. No?David Koresh thought he was God. A bunch of people moved into his compound and treated him as such, including letting him have sex with anyone including little girls. Who are we to say he wasn't God? Freedom of religion? The BATF surrounded him and burned the compound to the ground along with everyone there. Way to save the children. Maybe if we're lucky Hillary will become president and Janet Reno will once again be attorney general. We can only pray...

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from Dave in St Pete wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Bubba,I am human and have many failings but I don't remember shooting any innocent people and getting away with it.(and I'm hoping you were being sarcastic)

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Tommy,Though Koresh died, there were survivors of the raid that escaped or got out days before the fire. Don't know if they were so pro-Koresh that they would not tell the truth, or just want the whole mess swept under the rug.What little is known of Koresh is that he pretty much took control of the compound by "coup".I'm not saying that the gov't was right or wrong. I'm saying that there is a lot that is not known about both sides and nobody seems to want to clear the air.The Ruby Ridge incident, I understand was a little more cut and dried, with the gov't being a bit over zealous! But, then are we not a government, of the "people", by the "people", for the "people"? Aren't we as "people", human beings? Do we also not, as human beings, have failings?Bubba

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from buckstopper wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I agree with Steve C, incompetance was the failing at Waco, leading to arrogance by those in charge. I remember a couple of decades ago when survivalist were in vogue and "Rambo" was in the theaters, a nut survivalist group calling itself "The Covenant, Arm and Sword" had a compound, simular to that of Waco, which holed up near Mt. Home in the Arkansas Ozarks. They actually built an armored car with numerous rockets and bozookas. The US attorney at the time was Asa Hutcheson, he choose to surround and wait them out, eventually after a couple of months the seige ended peacefully. Hutcheson later went on to Congress and a stint in the Bush Administration. The difference again was competance vs. incompetance.Also, don't forget Elion Gonzales'kidnapping by Janet Reno.

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from Tommy wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

I frequently remind my wife when we have an argument, or she gets into it with a co-worker that "it takes two to tango". By that I mean it is very irresponsible, in most cases, to entirely blame one person or group for any human failure.I do not know much about Ruby Ridge. I do remember Waco. I remember all the women and children.I think it was a catastrophic human failure that neither of the 2 parties involved could find a way to get all the women and children out of harm's way in that episode. That was a dark day in our existence. On the one side - an "apparent" madman, with hoards of "apparently" brain-washed followers. On the other side - too many men with guns and an amount of patience that did not seem to matter. In the end - too many dead women and children with no "apparent" wrong-doing.And our mighty rulers could do nothing about it.I use "apparent" in this way because while there is evidence of the Koresh guy being wacked out, I guess since he will never face a trial, which we all deserve, we will never really know what was going on there.

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from El-Wazir wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Seems to me it was a pro-gun, NRA card-carrying Democratic congressman from Michigan, John Dingle, who first used the phrase. LaPierre said so in one of his fund-raising letters around that time. Gotta read your mail, Dave...

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from Steve C wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

IF the term "jack-booted thugs" applies, it would more appropriately be to the response of the ATF and FBI in the aftermath of Ruby Ridge and Waco. What led up to Ruby Ridge and Waco was incompetence, which I believe is a greater threat posed by those in power.

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