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Two Cases Where Bigger Isn't Better

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May 30, 2008

Two Cases Where Bigger Isn't Better

By David E. Petzal and Phil Bourjaily

As the nature of my curious profession requires me to use as many cartridges as possible, I did a lot of hunting with the 7mm Remington Magnum and the .300 Winchester Magnum, and tried very hard to like them. But it didn't work out. Both have the same virtue and the same fault. The virtue is that they are somewhat more powerful than standard cartridges of the same caliber, and their fault is that they are somewhat more powerful than standard cartridges of the same caliber.

The 7mm Remington was probably inspired by the Mashburn 7mm Magnum, which Warren Page brought to fame over his 25 years as shooting editor of Field & Stream -- except the Mashburn was a lot more powerful than the Remington round. Warren pushed a 175-grain bullet at just over 3,000 fps from his rifle, which the Remington will not do in any way, shape, or form. The .300 Winchester had to follow in the giant footsteps of the .300 Weatherby, which is much longer, and does everything in a much bigger way.

The 7mm Remington kicks considerably more than a .270 or a .280, and has a bit more effective range, but not much. Similarly, the .300 Win Mag has bigger numbers than a .30/06, but not much. But it kicks noticeably harder. I had several rifles in both calibers in the 1970s and 1980s, and used them hard, but I finally gave up on them and went to non-magnum rounds instead. My shoulder is happier, the animals fall down just as fast, and I do not miss these rifles at all.

from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 20 weeks ago

The best thing I love about the 7mm Rem. Mag cases and not the rifle is the cases make beautiful 338 Win Magnum!

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from O Garcia wrote 5 years 20 weeks ago

When people buy a Remington 7mag, it's not really the Remington they think they're buying, but the legend of Warren Page's 7mm Mashburn Super Magnum (which is really the equivalent of the 7mm STW), and its golden standard of 3,000 fps for 175-grain bullets. Even young shooters who never read Page had heard the legend through their mentors (fathers, older brothers, uncles, etc.).That's why they end up being disappointed.Of course, they can always save up for those hard to find German RWS factory loads in 7mm Rem. Mag. Then they'll find they're in 7mm Weatherby territory.To its credit, the 7mm Rem. Mag. does its stuff while managing to stay around 58,000-61,000 PSI (I'm looking at the Hodgdon reloading manual). It is, one might say, a "relatively" low pressure round. The 7mm Wby, which more or less equals the Mashburn, operates at 65,000PSI.

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from 7.62NATO wrote 5 years 22 weeks ago

By the way the Weatherby guy says it all,his calibers are extreme overbore and very throat erosive with little gain over 7mm rem or .300 win mag,however these 2 ,in particular the BIG 7, take the concept of a comfortable shooting, shoulder fired, magazine feed weapon, in comfortable carrying weight to a perfect balance.As Carmichael said it dosent exist on this planet it cant take and when the ranges gets long the 7mm catches up to bigger" up close hitters".I imagine i'd have to run up ,pick up my 130SBT from my .270 and fire it again to match the 7 in the long range department.Just kidding for any of you O'Connor disciples.

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from 7.62NATO wrote 5 years 22 weeks ago

Wow lots of 7mm mag brow beaters,.270 win approaching 7mm mag handloads are you on crack.My Mod 70 will shoot 3000fps all day with 175 sierra Gamekings MOA do the terminal velocity and enerry and penetration on this load,i use a mod 70 feahterweight in .270 and a lightweight in 06 ,great rifles but let me tell you this they are not nore will ever be the long range smooth shooting beast the BIG 7 is,and talking about recoil come on guys give me a break its a big game rifle not a 60 rounds prone sniper grow up ffs.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 29 weeks ago

Clay,Your gonna have to get that recipe, I saw some of those but don't have good data to use on them. Oh yea, I wasn't thinking about deer while I was looking them over maybe something bigger. Right now 165s are just fine for deer but my barrel is just 22 inch.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 29 weeks ago

Jim in Mo.I got some Hornady 190 grain soft point boat tails loaded for one of 3 of my 30-06 sizlin at 2814fps will knock that dears $!ck in the dirt!!

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 29 weeks ago

Coop:I agree on the ability of a jackrabbit to "tote lead". Shortly after I moved to Wyoming almost three decades ago that one animal proved to amaze me more than any other. I repeatedly saw them go down, get up, and run after taking a hot .22-250 or 25-06. Not always but enough to impress me. This never happened with prairie dogs or picket pins and seldom with coyotes. I hate to admit it but once I watched a narrow gauge mule (jackrabbit)take seven hits of various types at very long range from a .22-250 with 52 gr bthp match grade bullets at about 3800 before it gave it up. I don't shoot them any more prefering just to scare them so as to watch their high and wild antics as they rush through the sage. This never fails to bring a smile to my old and ugly face.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 29 weeks ago

Meant to say 165 Interlock handloads. When I first started loading I had the ignorance to think I invented this particular load, then after I read two or three different manuals I realized I was just using a good time tested load.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 29 weeks ago

Coop,IMHO I would never use a 130 gr bullet in an 300mag or '06 here in Mo. We get to many close shots. You've heard me moan about almost losing (my sons) deer using a 150 gr. bullet (Fusion) at 10 yds. Damn thing just blew up! If we had more predictable shots here then planning would be easier. As far as 180soft pt. bullets I think they're just fine for close shots on deer and black bear, so after that last fiasco I just load the boy up with Core Loks and I stay with my handload 165, both '06.Done any Bream or Cat fishin on Beaver lately? Should be bitin. See Ya.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 29 weeks ago

By the way, the hardest critter of all I know of is the Jackrabbit. Blow them in half and they still keep going!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 29 weeks ago

Locke MellottI cannot let this one slide by!Largest game for 270 and 25-06 is Elk period 270 and 25-06 is defiantly not recommended for moose unless you want to be tracking it for hours and you need your ass kicked for using it! I’ve shot more White tail, Black Tail and Mule Deer with my 22-250 than all my rifles combined and the Moose to save argument, the shot placement behind the ear I could have used my 22-250 instead of my 338 Win Mag that really scrambled Bullwinkle’s brain.Now where you come up with the thought of magnum cartridges are made for magnum animals is that of a novice and not of an experienced hunter. A 300 Win Mag with a 130 grain bullet sizzling around 3500 fps is Ideal for deer and a 30 cal 110 grain soft point at 3800 fps is a blast on yodel dogs and jackrabbits! Knowing how hardy the critter is to knockdown is where you match the cartridge and bullet weight in accordance with the terrain, distance and environment (crosswind etc) conditions for the best performance. 180 on deer is ridicules!!True you don’t really need a magnum because normally all shots are less than 250 and a 30-06 will do a fantastic job including moose! By the way a 270 with a 130 grain is ideal for Caribou!

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from Locke Mellott wrote 5 years 29 weeks ago

You don't need a three quarter ton or bigger pickup to pull a jetski. You do need one to pull a 32 foot camper/trailer. If someone only pulls a jetski with their half ton pickup and thinks they have a tow vehicle, it would be tough to argue with them until they hook up to a big trailer and take it a few miles down the road, providing they don't burn out their transmission. There are some good vehicle operators out there, that CAN pull a trailer with a half ton, but they do it very carefully and have experience towing things.There seems to be a lot of misconception of what a magnum big game rifle is for. It isn't intended for deer or antelope as many hunters would possibly think, although it can be used in this way. The increased amount of powder in a magnum case is generating enough power to accelerate heavier bullets/more to expand and penetrate, to standard or slightly above standard speed, FOR BIG GAME.The secret is understanding the proper application of the tool for the job at hand.Magnum rifles are made for big, tough animals. They can push heavy bullets at relatively high speeds. This causes a lot of noise and recoil over a standard cartridge, and much caution needs to be taken on the bench and sighting the rifle in. If done properly and prudently, a magnum rifle will cause no more flinch than a standard rifle.I used to use 165 grain projectiles in a .300 Weatherby because of the "hotrod" numbers and the flat trajectory. After shooting this for five years and wondering why I wouldn't get full penetration on a 60lb yearling or only 14" of penetration on a black bears tenderloin (where the bullet actually veered from it's intended path to follow the grain of the muscle because the mushroom cloud shape it was pushing lost all powers of penetration), I have changed my mind. I had to learn the hard way. Now, enlightened to what the utility of that extra powder is for, I use a 200 grain projectile, and drive it just 300 fps slower. My downrange energy is greatly increased, and wind drift is diminished considerably. And what Jim Carmichael calls "use a cartridge with enough punch" factor is present.When I read posts of people complaining of how a magnum rifle makes their shoulder sore, I just think that the person has not learned or acknowledged the many ways to mitigate the noise and buck of the larger shell. The recoil is ALMOST never felt in the field. And I have had a poorly fitting '06 cause some pretty bad flinching before I became enlightened to the padding and other recoil dampening products available to the shooter/hunter.If a person hunts big game, ie. bear, elk, moose, at big yardages, ie. over 250 yards regularly, they will quickly wise up to the fact that magnum cartridges are made for magnum animals.Consider this. A 55 grain .22 caliber bullet is adequate for a 40 pound coyote. A 100 grain .243 bullet is completely adequate for 100 pound deer. A grain of bullet for a pound of body weight. The same criteria however would not hardly apply for 650-700lb elk unless of course you are using a BMG or a large .700 Nitro Express.I have hunted coyotes a great plenty, and had much success with the .223 Remington, however, I have had bullet failures, and isolated incidents which have made me be more careful with shot placement than I have to be when shooting my 6mm loaded with 75 or 80 grain bullets. The same goes for big game. You can use a .270 or a .25-06 class rifle for bear, elk and moose all day long with the proper application of bullet, yardage, shot placement, etc., but when one of these variables isn't quite right for the situation, you will eventually run into problems.And that is what magnum rifles are for.

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from Rocky MtnHunter wrote 5 years 44 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter; Glad you were abe to draw Mt. I was upset that I failed both C0 and MT. Nevr dreamed mssing MT as always drew MT.Wth 2.400 combotags available, felt sure would draw.Called The MT game dept and the girl told me they had over 21000 to apply . I could not believe that with teh ecomony as it is. I'd have bet a lot of $ I would draw. I had already gotten plane fares, motel, rental car, etc. and the Guy I hunt with on his ranch had cleared some areas for me to park my vehicle. O well, just was not my year it appears. Just hope can make it next year. Will just hunt every day I can here at home adn in Va. Our hunt is 5 weeks together, they need to change it adn have a week or 2 break so the season goes afterChristmas for those guys who got guns , etc for Christmas.I hate to wait nearly a year to use what i receive at Christmas. Family know my feelings on guns, so they let em buy what I want prior to seasons. I bought teh MArlin as soon as could find one I wanted one or the first,as Rem bought out MArlin, and Rem ws bouht bya investment groupe just to make $$$, I was afraid if I got one after Rem ws involved gun might not be up to par. But it hs a low S# so know its a true MArlin. At lest the quality is there and do believe its a copy of a Winchester 70. My only objection is teh bbl length, wish ws 24 rathe than 22. But if will shot as well as my othr 700's in 22" will be happy. I zero all my big game guns at a true 200 yards, none of this l00 yrd stuff and shoot 2" hight to hit 200. Some guns will shot eratic after l00 yds,adn I want a true 200 yds zero.With my Rems, can put 3 rounds in a 2" area of bulls eye every time.. Take care, have fun in C0. Hey if you go to Craig, C0 be sure and go to their Museum, its treat. More later. Time to hit the hay.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

RMHI hear you. I failed to draw a Combo License in Montana this year, too. I've still got my Colorado hunt in late October though. Over the counter bull tags in Unit 13 still. I haven't seen the results of the CO deer draw we put in for. I was going to try and hunt the Missouri Breaks for mule deer after the Colorado hunt, but no more dreaming and scheming about that since I didn't draw. I think I will put in for a Washington state late deer hunt since it is only another $5 on top of the big game license and see what happens.Good luck on your Marlin. I still haven't seen one in my local gun shops.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

Jim in MO; Yep, live in N.C. about 30 miles north of Winston Salem, N.C. I fly out of Charlotte as the plane I take to Denver begins in FL and if I boarded a plane in Greensboro, N>C.( is nearer ) would have to change planes in Charlotte. By going from Charlotte, it's a direct flight to Denver, C0, then a smaller Commuter plane ( 55 passenger) to Missoula, MT.. AS I failed to draw in 3 states this year, will hunt w-tails here and at my Daughters in Virginia. We have a week of B/P then 4 weeks of rifle. In Va, when I go will be B/P for 3 weeks. I'm not really fond of B/P, but when can hunt don't matter. i got 3 B/P rifles.A T/C Renegade 50 Cal.; a HAwken in 54 Cal; and a CVA in-line 50 Cal. I like the T/C 54 Cal, with tht long bbl, it will reach out further than the others with 24" bbl.s Would like a new T/C Break action, but got to many guns now.@ 73 yrs old, these will out-last me I'm sure. Just want my gun smith to get well and make the front sight for the XL7 MArlin work, so scope is closer to my eyes.Have you seen, shot the new MArlin? I think you will be impressed with the gun. It appears to be a Clone of a Winchester 70 in some respects, Love the new trigger.The only syn stocked gun I have seen that the stock really fits the metal, no open space around it. I got the syn black stock with cheek piece, blue bbl to haul about on my 4 wheeler and truck. Caliber is 270, the first 270 ever owned or shot. Just hated to beat up my walnut stocked guns. When I go to the Rockies, I take a 700 30-06 CDL, and a 700 Classic 25-06. That 25-06 is a flat shoting gun, so is the 06 with the l80 gr Scricco's ammo. I'm a firm believer that Ammo is a major difference in shot placement. Don;t buy dime store ammo for a several thousand hunt if you lucky enough to draw and can go. I;ve hunted since I was 10 ys old.My first deer hunt was in l952 and I was hooked. I eat, sleep, breath guns and hunting. Would love to go to Canada for Caribou, but may not be able to walk up there.Being disabled and walk with a cane or Bi-pod when hunting, kinda hard to cover rough ground. I mostly stand hunt, but now and then will take the 336 and fidde along in the woods slowly. On my farm, have 2 ponds and much timber growth around both, a great place for a big old Buck to lay up in hot weather. I slip in from the south, as usually the wind comes thru the valley from the south. I mostly hunt from ground Blinds that I put up about 1-2 weeks prior to season and leave up till season is over. With the blinds and my Buddy Heater I can stay warm. After my sicknes in 90-91 I lost 50 lbs, and now I freeze when temp drops below 40. I lost all my insulation with that 50 lbs. Ok, enough gabbing about me. Take care.The Old Gunslinger

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

P.S.,When I was in the Army I used to fly in/out of Raleigh, if you use Charlotte you must be in SE, N.C.?

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

RMH,I live about 40 miles north of STL which is 40 miles to close. Looking for ground north to buy but need to buy at least 3 acres or more to get permit to put in septic tank legally.If things go right I'll go to the range tomorrow to test out the new Hornady ammo. Will let you know the results, but as of now I expect good results.This fall, if my hunting spot is still available, I'm taking that gun to try to get a deer first. I've let it sit to long and it works great in Missouri, deserves annother deer.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

Jim in MO: Yep, gota 336 MArlin in 30-30. My first big game rifle was a Winchester 30-30, that was back in l952. Like a Idiot then, traded for a Rem Auto. I also had a 336in 35, wsunable to find Ammo most times,so traded it off for something. I want to try the new Ammo, let me know how it works for you. Maybe a gun forgotten but surges back to life. every hunter needs a lever 30-30. I use mine now and then when I feel up to creeping thru the many woods we have on my place. I have a folding stool with straps like on a back pack that I take along.I will slp thru the trees very slow,then find a huge Oak and sit for a while.If no luck, will move on.May take me mot of a day to make a circle and covr maybe 4 miles. But walking with a cane ( now I use shooting sticks for cane), I move very slowly and watch ahead of me.My 336 is non-scoped, but did replace the orig sights with fiber optic ones, I keep the orig sights.My Gun Smith is having leg problems and must stay off his feet for 2 more weeks, then I plan for him to re-make a front Weaver base for my Marlin XL7. The factory job, the base sticks out over the shell opening about l/2" and I don;t like that, a hang up by spent shell could lodge there and then I would be all bent out of shape.I calledMarlin,as they advertie a one piece base, they sent 2 more tht came with the gun, made by Weaver. I use to use only Weavers, but switched to Leupold Dual Dove Tails, thes new Weaves look cheap.If not for the cross bolt,doubt they would stay in place. THe front sight on the Weaver will fit eithe way back or forward, but will not allow the scope to come back close enough for me to get the full view of my scope. I got a Bushnell Buckhorn 3.5 x 9 x 10 had a few yeas I planned to use, but just don;t focus like teh Nikons. So may end up with buying another Monarch by Nikon, as I have on my other 4 hunting rifles. Tryig to save a few bucks so can go back west when-ever i draw again.Can you believe with ecomony in the pits,that MT had 12.400 Combo tags available and 21.000 huntes applied???? I though would be no problem in drawing this year. I also failed to draw in C0,only KY left,draw is July I think.Do believe many former C0 hunters thought the winter kill in C0 was worse than stated, nearly 50-70% that, those guys applied for Montana. Never had problem in drawing in prior years, . Hopefully I can draw once more, as want a nice Mulie.May try to make contacts in WY for a Mulie and Lopes if seasons close together. Wher Ihunt in MT,a private ranch, has some Mulies, but they up too high for me to get to,same as the Elk unless a Snow falls early and pushes them lower.I can get up to 7K feet ok, but they at about 10K feet , or was 2 yrs ago. Let me know on the new Ammo, I want to try if they work.When I get my XL7 scoped and zeroed will let you know how it works. Shoot-um-straight and very often.The old Southern Gun Slinger. Hey, what area in Mo do you live? I as thru ther l0 ys ago when we drove teh MH 10K miles in 28 staes, gone 3 months. Glad i did as burned 2700.00 in gas then. Now would be like 10K bucks.On that trip,gas was around l.l0 -l25.Only one place in the salt flats I had to pay l.69,but that little town ws 200 miles east of Reno.. Also, check plane fares a few weeks ago. In 2003, plane tickestscost me $337.00 From Charlotte, N.C. to Missoula ,MT now they cost me over $800.00 each.When I return,hopefully can find another couple to go along and us drive. But all the hunters near me,all young and can;t be gone 4-6 weeks.. The older retired guys, care less about hunting. They rather Yard sale or sit on Butts and watch TV.Chat again soon.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

RMH,Hey, you got a 336? I've had one chambered for .35Rem. for 25yrs. Got the new Fejestads gun values book and found out it was made in '64. No wonder its stock is as pretty as it is and would never sell it unless a rich man wanted to exchange his H&H Royal and throw in a box of ammo. It shoots all common loads (Win,Rem,Fed) about the same, 2 1/2 at 100yds. Bought a reloading die about 6 yrs ago when I had trouble finding ammo a week before deer season. Bad time to stock up on ammo.Today I bought some of the the Hornady Lever Evolution ammo for it just to try. If it gives same accuracy I'll use it because they really reduced the price. Was near $30 a box when new, now $20. I just have a hard time believeing the factory saying it will do 2225fps. Don't have a chrono but if its accurate I'll keep buying it.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

99 times out ofa 100 its the shooter who screws up, not the caliber or load. I've hunted the West many time for Elk, Mulies, Lopes, and w-tails there and here. I got several 30-06's and with the many loadsavailable for the o6, the average hunter does not need a larger caliber. I am disabled and the 30-06 works fie for me. I shoot Rem Scricco's 180 grs when Elk and Deer hunting the Rockies and l50's grains Core-lokt here. To my way od shooting,a 30-06 with right bullet will take any N American game, other than maybe the Griz or Brownie. I would never hunt those two bears unless I had a back up shooter with say a 375 or largr. I fully believe with proper bullet placement the 06 with standard ammo would handle the Bears,but why chance it. My 25-06 is my choice for W-tails and Lopes along with my 336 30-30 in thick woods where shots are quick and close.My opinion is most of us never pratice enough and have a Wal-mart 29.95 scope.Buy a quality scope and pratice as much as possible. Prior to my trips wet I begin my pratice session about 2 monts in advance.I try to shoot at least a dozen rounds per week. Once I get the rifle zeroed I never fiddle with changing the 200 yard 0, I just take that in consideration when I shoot at game, as if time permits, I always range teh animal. in 2006 I killed a Lope at 325 yds with Winchesters ll7 gr Ballastic tips and my Deer was shot at 345 yds with l80 gr Scricco's,both animals fell in their tracts.Buy a gun that fits you and pratice a lot. If the gun does not fit you, bet you shop around till you find one that does,.Shoot often-shoot straight, don't skimp on Ammo. AS thats the cheapest item you will use on a Trophy hunt. Why pay thousands of bucks for a Rocky Mtn hunt and use dime store ammo.I bought a new MArlin XL7 in 270 as a haul about gun for my 4 wheeler and truck gun. Have not shot yet, as Gunsmith is sick at present and I want him to rework the scope bases for the front base. I use only Nikon Monarch scopes, glasses, finder, Bincs and a 30 yr old Nikon l step Camera. Gun hunting guys, save a trophy Mulie for me in WY or Montana.Would be a great place to test the new 270.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

Alaskan ExileI feel the same way about my thutty nought six that will put 3 165 gr. Triple Shocks in less than a half inch at 100 yards. Their muzzle departure speed is about 2850 fps.Nosler doesn't make a bulet my rifle will shoot that accurately....I've tried all of them, factory and handloads.

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from AlaskanExile wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

Dave;I enjoy your blog but have to take issue with your statement about the 7mm Remington. The Nosler reloading manual lists a load of R22 behind a 175 grain bullet at 2970 fps. That's pretty close, to say that it can't do it. No it doesn't get to the 'magic' 3000, but so what?I will have to admit that I have not actually tried/chronographed this load in my rifle, but I have a 160gr Barnes TSX load that has on occasion shot 3 bullets touching at 100 yards from my Browning A-Bolt, so I don't mess with that. I know exactly where the bullet is going and what it's going to do when it gets there. Who could ask for more?

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

Just as followup of the previous entry I made regarding a neighbor who recently hunted in B.C. I wanted to add that he did get his grizzley. It squared just over 7 feet, not a big as he wanted but still a nice sized animal. I mentioned it because I figured he would shoot it with a 7 mm Rem Mag which he did throwing a 180 gr Berger. The distance was 735 yards. One shot. This is all on video and will be on TV probably next winter or spring. The rifle has quite a bit of freebore with a 26 inch barrel. His chronograph indicates 3070 fps for the 180's. Some folks can make the old 7 mm work quite nicely especially if they shoot it a lot...and I mean almost every afternoon even if it requires a new barrel every few years. Also he saw 25 black and brown bears in one day and has a picture of 3 black bears all in the same frame.

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from Elmer Keith, Jr. wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

If you can't handle the recoil of a firearm, i suggest you take up bow hunting. You will have to pry my 10.57 Lazzeroni Meteor from my cold, dead hands!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

Get in line james t and sarg... I saw her first.

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from james t wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

THAT IS THE PERFECT WOMAN!!!! now only if she hunts and fishes and beats up men, i'm there!!!

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from Mr. Smith goes to Washington wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

The heavens shone on me when I bought my first high-powered rifle, a wonderful 7mm-08. It seems to have more than enough recoil for a newbie like me and frankly I can shoot it better than anyone I know can shoot their "man's" rifles. The deer mustn't know it's only a newbie's gun because they've all dropped where they stood. It really helps if you take out the top of the heart and most of both lungs. Some day when I become a man, I'll get a 300 win mag and start gut shooting stuff. Until that day I'll have to use my "womans" rifle, sad isn't it? I plan to use it on Elk someday. I can only imagine the sh!t I'll take from the guide about being under gunned. Put your money into a GOOD rifle, with a great trigger, good barrel and stop worrying about caliber madness.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

BubbaYour cartridge list looks a lot like my inventory! Except add a .35 Whelen and .358 Winchester and ditch the .270 Win.The .270 is a fine cartridge, indeed. I just never felt the need to have one since everyone else raves about it and I'm a bit of a non-conformist by nature. As a young whippersnapper, I just loved reading Jack O'Conner, but got tired of his rants about the wonders of the .270. Just my opinion, of course.

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from johnnydwson wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I wanted more power from my .270 so I put on a 27.5 inch barrel. With the WC860 machine gun powder, and magnum primers, the 150 grain bullets are noticebly faster. There is less muzzle blast than before I switched to the longer barrel. It holds better on target, weighs more, and kicks less. So if you think you need more power, consider a longer barrel.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I wish I had a dollar for being asked, “What’s the best cartridge?” The real question is, how much punishment you can withstand and still shoot a ½ of pieplate sitting position at 100 yards preferably 200 yards? So what’s the best cartridge then???? In my younger years, I had great desire of owning magnums and even bought a Ruger Model 77 300 Win Mag and shot the barrel out of it and sold it when the second showed signs of washing out. Both the 7mm Rem Mag and the 300 Win Mags are outstanding cartridges with one inherited problem? Practically every owner does not know how to properly choose the weight and type of bullet they need!7mm Rem Mag: The heaviest grain bullet I would use is a 162 grain, any heavier you might as well switch to a 30-06! Note: I found out respectable Hunting Guides in Alaska will tell you 30 calibers starting with 30-06 or larger will only be allowed.300 Win Mag: The heaviest grain bullet I would use is a 190 grain, if I need a real game stopper I’ll pull my 338 Win Mag out!The bottom line is this, I have found out thru all the years growing up, shooting centerfire at extreme distances in Arizona while others shot rimfires, competition shooting and Big game hunting I found the answer to what everyone has been asking and trying to answer, what is the best cartridge to use? The answer is, “What is the largest cartridge shooting a bullet at or above 3000 fps and still hold a ½ PP (pieplate) at 100 yards preferably 200 yards sitting position you can handle?”For deer hunting the bullet weight for 7mmr Rem Mag and 300 Win Mag would be, 7mm Rem Mag 120 to 139 grain and 300 Win Mag 130 to 150 grain. I’ve found that shooting Hornady 130 grain Soft point at 3500 fps is my number one choice for deer!By the way, I dumped that 300 Win Mag and replaced it with a 25-06 and never regretted it!If your shooting a Mag and not thumping 3000fps plus? YOU ARE USING THE WRONG LOAD AND MIGHT AS WELL BE SHOOTING A NONMAGNUM!!!

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from ChevJim wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

It's not kinetic energy or velocity that kills per se, it's the trauma inflicted by the bullet. Today's bullets do a much better job of expanding AND holding together, so a less powerful round with good bullets will kill quicker and cleaner than a more powerful round with less than optimum bullets. I also like the idea of being able to keep the same barrel on a rifle, and the magnums can wear out barrels in short order. It has been said that by the time you find the best load and bullet for a .300 Weatherby, the barrel is pretty much gone. I have shot my .300 Weatherby a lot, however, and the barrel still looks pretty good, but I know it won't last as long as my barrels in .30/06 rifles. When you think about passing rifles on down to your grandchildren, barrel life is something to think about. Also, I think that a good way to discourage young hunters is to hand one a magnum for his first deer rifle. Ya know, shooting and hunting ought not "hurt" the shooter or hunter!

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from jhd05 wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Jim,I shoot a .30-378 and it does an excellent job for me. I hunt in Pine country that is very thick and if an animal goes very far in either direction, it is probably going to be coyote food because tracking is near impossible. I did however, for the first time, shoot a 200lb. deer with it this year. The deer came out at 20 yds (wish i had had my bow). When i shot i thought i missed. It was very early and i couldn't see the impact. I wound up shooting the deer 2 more times before he fell. He only moved about 5 yards from the first to last shot. What i found out when i got down is that the bullet did not expand hardly at all at that range and zipped right through. I use a 180 gr. Barnes X. The deer was dead on the first shot, I just couldn't tell because of the early morning lighting. Other than that incident, I love this gun and everything else i have shot with it never took another step, regardless of distance.

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from Dave Petzal wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

To Dr. Ralph: Thanks, but I make it a point never to date women who have superior firepower.

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from sarg wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Jim in Mo, I agree with you on Harold's loading. That would have to be compressed or wrong figures, My Hornady manual doesen't even show a 140 gr. in 7x57 loading(.284). I'm not doubting Harold's one shot kill on the bull, The 7x57 is probably my favorit round, then the .308 win.

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from sarg wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

A girl after my own heart..

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from sarg wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Harold, what are you comparing? You gave no bullet placement, yardage, etc...

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

WOW DAR SPROTSFANS, HERE WE GO AGAIN!!

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from Dick Mcplenty wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I know randy and his two sons. Randy is a good smith and a good guy.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Dick McPlenty:The idea came from Randy about 20 years ago when he showed me one of the first such rifles that he made but I am just now getting around to having the rifle built. Action work and barrel was by Douglas at their plant in West Virginia. Jim somebody did it, friend of a friend. John Porter (Best of the West field rep, outfitter, realtor, neighbor, and rifle maker) added the Hi-tech stock and his own custom muzzle brake (the first and only brake I own, turns out I actually like it which is a real surprise even to me). It is a real shooter. Randy has used one for decades with great success. He predated the 7 mm Rem Ultra by many years and once actually had Dominion Ammo in Canada loading the 7 mm x 404 plus other creations of his own design. The 7 mm-08 that I speak so highly of was built by Randy back in about 1990. The 7 mm-08 rifle is so perfect I hate to take it to the mountains for fear of blemishing it. I have not looked at Selby's website recently but as I said some time ago it is worth a few minutes of anyone's time. You will enjoy the videos of my local body shop owner and friend Frank doing a little shooting as well as some unique guns made for him so he can continue to hunt and shoot despite an eye problem.I think it is www.randyscustomguns.com.

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from Dick Mcplenty wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Ishawooa that 7mmx404,sounds like a Randy Selby creation.Is it?

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Boy I'd like to be her high value target for a night or two.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Hey Dave, I found you a new girlfriend... punch my name!

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from Zeiss Fan wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Dr. RalphI agree with you about bullet selection being personal.IMO I don't think a 300 win mag is necessary east of the Miss river. On the other hand I think its perfect for hunting west of the Miss river. I love the 30.06 but if I'm shooting at a deer, elk or mule deer out to 300 yards plus I want a 300 in my hand.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Obviously cartridge choice is a very personal thing which elicits responses all over the map. I can see if I were hunting the Western states how velocity would be a much more important factor. I've killed dozens of whitetails and the longest shot I ever took was right at 120 yards and dropped the deer in it's tracks with a muzzle loader and 80 grains of pyrodex, so obviously a 7mm Magnum would probably not be on the top of my list.Now if someone had given me a .300 Win Mag or 7mm Mag twenty years ago and it was a tack driver I would be on here extolling the virtues of the mighty magnum and reminding the rest of you that you were lowly girly men and you might as well take up basket weaving or maybe even fishing...

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from Michael wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

If I could have had the concession on 7mm magnums used in the hill country of Texas to take 85-90 lb. whitetails, I would have retired 30 years ago. One joker even bragged about his 7mm STW (bigger is better) blowing the shoulders off whitetails and exotics. I assume he didn't like venison. The 25-06, 6.5x55, and 7x57 are my favorite guns. If I can't kill an animal with these, I don't need to hunt it. Having said that, I will admit to ordering a Ruger no 1 in 9.3x74 because I am a no 1 fan, and this classic old cartridge should make an excellent hog gun. This is enough rationalization to acquire a new rifle. right, Dave?

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from BJ wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Hey Dave,There are actual uses for .300 WinMag - I bought mine for mule deer in California which demand 3-400 yard shots more times than not. The decision to use a BAR took care of recoil and the possible need (not yet) for a follow-up shot.For the fellow shooting the 2 3/4 shotshells at turkey, I got a Benelli II and the 3 1/2s don't hurt at all.I guess you could drive a Volkswagon Beetle at Indianapolis too!

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Ed J.I haven't been into handloading near as long as you but although I'm lucky my rifle shoots factory well it's not until I handload, neck size only, do the groups get impressive for an off the shelf gun. Also I've never seen any benefits to loading beyond max loads, the velocity increase is nill compared to the hassle of stiff bolts and blown primers, both of which I've done 1 each accidentally.I believe this velocity craze has something to do with some people believe more velocity translates into a bigger bullet.

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from Ed J wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Jim in MoDidn't think you would.O Yeah I got your point. Been handloading since the 1950's. Never had a gun ruined by my handloads. Though a few matches have been won using my handloads.I dond't Know if they expect us to believe some of their statments or not.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Ed J.,No I don't. My point was reading peoples estimation of velocity can be quite amusing. No way a 7x57 has velocity of 7mag despite 20gr bullet weight difference unless loaded that way. BTW if you read my posts, I own no mags. just a careful handloader.

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from Ed J wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Jim in MoHere is an aside to Harold's statement.My brother and a friend were hunting west of Roberts Mt, thats where my brother lives. He waas using a 308 Norma Mag, His friend was using a 7mm REM Mag. He shot a 4x4 and later in the day his friend shot a 4x5 and a cow on the off side. Do you supose the 7mm is twice as good 308 Norma? After all it got two elk with one shot. ;)Actually they were both embaraced because they never saw the cow till after the shot.

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from sarg wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I still like the word "overkill" I hunt whitetail at 50-75 yds, shoot a Rem.700 in .308. Don't need to go bigger. should really look at something smaller.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Harold,Did you load compressed handloads for your 7x57? Is it AI? Thats quite some velocity. Surely your friend downloaded his 7mag. Just wondering.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Del in Ks:Neighbor was not home last night but his wife told me that he went to Canada for the brown bear as she was mistaken and previously told me Alaska. Alaska is next year. He used to guide for bears in that state. Maybe I can see his bear tomorrow as tonight I have to attend my daughter's ballet recital (so things dads just have to do).Bernie Kuntz:I forget did you draw a Wyoming license for sheep? No luck here.Everyone else: Why don't we argue which is best .30-30 or .32 Win. Spl., revisit .270 vs .280, or discuss short fat mags rather than standard length versions? Just kidding since conversations are either worthless or redundant. All the aforementioned cartridges have advantages and all have shortcomings. I love my 7 mm Rem Mag and my 300 Win Mag but also have other rifles that are better in some ways. Pick what you like, shoot it often, use properly constructed bullets, attach the best scope you can afford if appropriate, and to hell with what anyone else thinks.

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from james t wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

i have a .300 weatherby mag, a .270 weatherby mag and a .338 browning mag and would never part with any of them. if recoil is too much for you try shooting them more and get to know the rifle. you can't shoot once or twice a year and expect recoil to just get easier. it isn't the caliber but the shooter. these are all very good calibers that i enjoy seeing come into my shop, which isn't very often.

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from Randy Free wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

You guys think what you want, but I have two sons that will argue with you on which gun kicks the most. They will take the 7mag any day over the .270 As to which gun is the best? Well thats like trying to choose between women. Its all in the eye of the beholder. I love the .270, grew up on it, but when I take to the field my 7mag will be there.

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from T.W. Davidson wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Greetings, Everyone . . .The blog comments about Magnums vs. standard caliber cartridges have been very interesting, as have some of the handloading ideas. Although I've handloaded probably 4000-5000 rounds in various calibers over the last couple of years, I admit it has never occurred to me to put tape over a loose primer pocket, seat a new primer in that pocket, load the case anew, then shoot it. Meaning no disrespect to those who have tried the scotch tape/loose primer pocket fixit idea, I admit I am not going to do so. I have a feeling it wouldn't work too well for me.When I first started handloading, I was very gung-ho, thought velocity was a god to worship, and that the major reloading manuals were too conservative and were written by desk-sitters and paper-pushers rather than by real shooters.But I learned. I blew primers. I froze bolts. I saw (and felt) things go BANG in bad ways. I had to replace a destroyed Model 700 action because of stupidity on my part and the significant probability of great carelessness or negligence on the part of a certain unnamed someone else. These days, I try very hard to avoid handloads that produce loose primer pockets, and if and when such a thing happens, I take very detailed notes about the handload and its characteristics and what went too far, then throw the brass away. And while I still find that some of the major reloading manuals are still very conservative, others yield higher performance but are, nonetheless, perfectly safe. For example, the published loads for the 257 Ackley Improved in the Accurate Smokeless Powder Loading Guide (Number Two edition, available online) are far hotter than those listed in the Nosler or Barnes or Hornady manuals, but are perfectly safe and shoot like a dream. And the published loads I found for the 257 AI in a circa-1970s Speer manual (using Norma 205 powder, which is no longer made)are as hot or hotter than the Accurate loads, yet are also perfectly safe in every modern bolt action rifle I've tested the loads in. The loads I've developed for my own various 257 AIs over the last couple of years are in the same vicinity and performance levels as the Accurate and old Speers loads. All shoot accurately, with high velocity, and no pressure-related issues at all.I am primarily a shooter, not a hunter. I spend a lot of time developing loads for my rifles and testing them for accuracy and velocity at my local range. I use a chronograph. I am very careful. I take detailed notes.I am sensitive to recoil and, although I am a very good shot, I have spent yearsteaching myself not to flinch. I am very much into the Zen of accurate shooting, the extreme self-imposed physical and mental discipline required to shoot very tiny groups in far-away targets.For those of you out there who share my sentiments that recoil and muzzle blast are unpleasant things to be avoided, I offer the following cartridges, all of which have very light to moderate recoil, minimal muzzle blast in barrels 22" or longer in length, are a joy to shoot, and can be handloaded to shoot very accurately.22-250--My 5'5" athletic 13-year-old daughter shoots handloads in her Browning A-bolt in this caliber with accuracy and confidence out to about 500 yards. Sixteen-ounce plastic coke bottles filled with water don't stand a chance. She doesn't notice the recoil, and can usually see the plastic bottles blow up through her scope.257 Roberts--My daughter's beautifully stocked absolutely gorgeous Winchester Model 70 in this caliber is, quite frankly, far too pretty to take out in the field and shoot. (We both feel this way.) But on the rare occasion we take her rifle to the range, it is easy to get 75-grain Hornady V-maxes out the muzzle around 3500 fps with minimal recoil (and sub-moa accuracy), and 100-grain spitzers out the barrel at around 3200 fps (and also sub-moa accuracy), none with enough recoil to bother us, even after 40+ rounds are sent downrange. The 257 Roberts is a great and yet oft-ignored cartridge, which is really a shame for the millions of shooters in America who don't like recoil or muzzle blast, and yet want and need a relatively high performance cartridge, which the 257 Roberts is when it's loaded properly. Ancient SAMMI standards for it need to be dumped and replaced with modern rifle higher pressure standards (as in, around 60,000 psi chamber pressure). And, according to Hodgdon's website in its data section, Hodgdon's new H-100V powder in 257 Roberts is pushing 100 grain bullets out the barrel at 3205 fps and 115-grain bullets out the barrel at 3049 fps--we are deep in the heart of 25-06 territory here, with less powder, little kick, and more shooting comfort-- which are terrific loads for almost all hoof-clad animals in this country. If only the major ammunition producers would offer 257 Roberts loads of this performance, the cartridge, and rifles chambered in it, would sell like hot pancakes and sausage at a Sunday Church breakfast.257 Ackley Improved--My customized Model 700 action in a HS-Precision stock and 24" barrel weighs about 8 1/2lbs with its Nikon 6-18x scope onboard. Handloads with 75-grain V-maxes are a joy to shoot all day long, even from the bench. Nosler 100-grain Ballistic Tips (safely out the barrel at 3400 fps with some old but pristine Norma 205 powder I found sitting lonely and abandoned on a back shelf in a very eclectic gunshop)kick a bit, and I wouldn't want to shoot them all day long, but test-firing 30-40 rounds in an afternoon session doesn't leave my head ringing nor my shoulder hurting. (And the rounds shoot sub-MOA.) My 257 AI is one of my two favorite rifles. It is very nearly a perfect rifle for me.7x57 Mauser and 7x57 Ackley--I use handloads shooting 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips, 130 grain Sierra MatchKings, and 140-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips or Combined Technology Ballistic Tips. I fireform 7x57 Mauser handloads into 7x57 Ackley cases, losing about 200-250 fps muzzle velocity from the "expected" velocity of the Mauser handloads when I do so, but I still get very respectable performance from the Mauser handloads and wonderful performance from my very carefully developed Ackley handloads.(For those who are curious, the Ackley 120-grain loads will go out my 24" barrel up to around 3300 fps using 49-50 grains of Varget. The Ackley 130-grain loads will go out the barrel around 3200 fps in fireformed Winchester or Remington brass, or up to around 3225-3250 fps in fireformed Hornady Light Magnum brass, using 51-52 grains of VVN 550. The 7x57 Ackley 140-grain loads will go out the barrel at 3100 fps or just slightly faster, using 55 grains of H-4350 and newly fireformed Hornady Light Magnum brass. I am still developing loads for this cartridge and have a long ways to go before I fully understand its performance capabilities.)My 7x57 Ackley is in a Remington 700 action, with a heavy sporter Leija 24" barrel, the action glass-bedded into a Hogue all weather stock, with a Shepherd scope onboard. The rifle weighes considerably more than I had planned when I first started putting all the pieces together--it's about 10 1/2lbs--but shoots like a dream and, regardless of how hot I load it, has never kicked me significantly at all. I think part of this, of course, is due to the weight of the rifle, but part of it is also due to the supreme efficiency of the cartridge. The 7x57 Mauser and its offspring, the 257 Roberts, 257 AI, and 7x57 AI, just don't need a whole lot of powder in their respective cartridges in order to produce excellent performance results.(I would love to see a credible modern-day scientific analysis of case design, powder burn, and powder burn/gas efficiency/bore ratios in various cases and calibers. I believe the 257 AI and 7x57 AI cartridges are likely the two most efficient sub-.30 caliber cartridges anywhere, followed closely by the 257 Roberts and 7x57 Mauser.)270 Winchester--I have a beaten-with-an-ugly-stick outhouse-nasty Savage Model 114 in cheap plastic factory issue stock and Nikon 3x9 ProStaff scope that, all together, doesn't seem to weigh even 8lbs. The rifle always feels very light. And while the rifle always shoots good handloads (and Hornady Light Magnum Loads) at MOA or even smaller, it kicks. It kicks hard. It hurts. Testing loads at the range requires that I wear a recoil-absorption pad on my shoulder. Sometimes I'll even put a washcloth beneath the absorption pad. I'll even cheat and stack sandbags around the rifle and try to weigh it down. (On the other hand, that rifle has turned me into an excellent off-hand shot at metal plate targets out to 300 yards, since shooting it off-hand is almost bearable compared to shooting it from the bench.) I've owned and fired several other 270s that didn't kick like this one does, hence my recommendation of the caliber if not a plastic-stocked Savage 114 in that caliber. The right rifle in that caliber is not unpleasant or uncomfortable to shoot at all.Good shooting, everyone.T.W. DavidsonTyler, TX

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from Jason N. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Besides wasn't the purpose of wildcatting to get more fps and energy out of existing load even if there wasn't significant gain.

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from Jason N. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I wonder how many of you out there bashing the magnums handload your .270s and 30-06 etc.. to max loads.

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from duff wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Bubba you mention a round that's one of my favorites...Savage 250-3000. That's my whitetail go-to guy. Mine's a '50's version in stainless with nice walnut stock and custom cheek and a Leupold 3x9. The reason to describe it is that my son took a deer this past fall with it. As mentioned in many of the other posts, there's a big gun phenom that really biases new gun sales, particularly the younger set. My son was under a lot of pressure to go 7mm or 300mag, just to have a bigger bulge so to speak. When he showed up with the 250, it's so nice a gun to shoot and look at, let alone performance (great range of bullet weights as well) that his most influential buddies actually started talking lower calibers. Go figure. My biggest fear is he'll talk me out of the gun...not!I shoot a custom .270, and my issued 7.62's, but not much and only for longer range game-elk, muley. In reading some of the guys notes on moving to fast and powerful for moose I'm a bit puzzled. Where I hunt moose, all over Canada (not Alaska yet) the cover is heavy and the shots are short. I've always used a Savage 99 in .358 Winchester and a Winchester 71 in .348 Winchester for moose and bear. The fun of the 71 is getting hit in the face with cartridges due to the top eject. Good ol' boys that still work great.Thanks.

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from Lance wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I can't believe you guys talking about kick like this. My 12ga. with a 2 3/4 slug, out kicks my 7 Rem. Mag. any day of the week. The 7 is 9 1/2 pounds with the scope, but the 12ga. is about 7 pounds.

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from Zermoid wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Hehe, you mentioned Groundhogs, several years ago I had a Winchester 94 in 30-30 Win that I used for poping groundhogs around the house (we lived in the middle of several acres of corn and soybean fields) using 110 gr Speer Varminter bullets. Don't know why but that gun wouldn't shoot 150 or heavier bullets (Tried several as well as several powders, primers etc) but those 110's would shoot 1 ragged hole benched or a cloverleaf shooting offhand at 100yds assuming I did my part right.The local farmer who owned the fields never had much of a groundhog problem within 200 yds of my place.

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from Dave Petzal wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

To Beekeeper: You will never offend me by mentioning Jim Carmichel on this blog; the man has been like a father to me. Anyway, since 1985 I've kept records of everything I've chronographed, and filled up an entire steno pad plus part of another. I call them "The Books of Sorrow."

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from wolfjaw wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I use a Winchester Model 70 in .270 caliber for deer and deer size critters; a .204 Ruger for 'chucks....and assorted calibers and gauges in between for giggles and snickers as my mood dictates. Someday (soon I hope) I will retire and satisfy a hankering for moose meat. Methinks a 150 grain .270 bullet for Moose is not the best tool for the job and I am leaning toward acquiring a rifle in either .350 Rem Mag or a .338 Federal. Those calibers can get the job done, but I have no experience with either. I'm not a long range assassin and would rather pass on shoulder busting recoil. Opinions???

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Thos. Fowler,You make a good point.There is a gentleman in my home town that is about 5'6" or so and would probably have to jump up and down on a scale to make it go past 150 lbs! Ronnie shoots a M77 Ruger in .458 Win Mag! BUT, he's a handloader and loads it down to about an above average .45-70 Gov't!If you hand load and don't like recoil, you can shoot a heavier caliber loaded down for white tail, and load up for larger game such as elk and moose!Yes, the massive case capacity magnums have some advantages, but I'll still stick by my ol' .270!Bubba

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from Thos. Fowler wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

What a discussion this idea generates...everywhere. It is not just about recoil, but about 'enough'...and what constitutes that? This extends to other facets of our lives, like SUV's and the size of our...lawnmowers.One of the charms few seem to remember is the blessing of the round ball muzzle-loader in the deer woods. Modern day versions have changed the equation, so that recoil comes back into the picture.Then, there is the joy and flexibility of reloading. My Dad's wildcat 7mmMag succumbed to the Remington version, and I handloaded nice, light loads for shooting offhand in local fun competitions. Currently, it is sighted in for Elk with 175 gr. Sierras. It is a custom rifle...it fits...it is extremely versatile. Groundhogs and many deer have fallen to it, and it began life as a WWI Mauser.Dave Petzal is the King of the Campfire discussions. Thanks, Dave. Enjoyed it.Tom Fowler

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

My first bolt gun was a 7MM Rem mag that I purchased because it was a cheaply priced(Savage)rifle I bought while in active military service. Young family, and low wages, caused me to be practicle and this gun got the job done!I started hand loading for it back then, as well, and I felt that helped me become a better shooter. Recoil is relative to the person receiving it, while I don't own that rifle any more, I do own "standard" rifle rounds that when loaded to "similar" speeds of the 7MM Remington has similar recoil! So, I guess what I am saying is if you want better preformance, man up, take some recoil and buy a magnum.ps-I also have a .270 Win, love the gun, but if I can load a 7MM bullet in a 160 grain wt, having better ballistics then a .270 bullet, I would prefer to carry that 7MM round on say a mixed deer/black bear/or moose hunt then the .270.

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from JDD wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

The most accurate gun in my safe is a Remington 7 mag. It is tricked out by Shilen and wears a 4X12X50 Swarovski AV with Talley mounts and a custom stock. I don't load it to max and the 140's are clocking 3000 fps. Yea I know the 270 will do the same thing and I own one but the 7 mag shoots like a house on fire. The 270 will shoot an honest 1" group sometime's but not always. The 7 mag will shoot 3/8" groups all day as long as I do my part. I don't own a 300 win mag but I do have a 338-06 and it is the cats meow for elk and BIG Texas hogs. My fun guns consist of a Cooper Western Classic in 25-06, an Ackley 280 I ordered from Nosler and a Weatherby XII long rifle. No I am not a fat cat, I just simply rat hole every penny I can even if it takes 3 or 4 years saving up to buy what I want.A while back Dave said he sold his 280 Ackley because it keep blowing primers. I had the same problem with Federal primers. I changed to CCI primers and use Nosler brass, backed off my load a tad and problem went away. I can get 3150 fps with 140 grain Nosler BT's real easy with the 280 Ackley. That is more than enough to do what I want, in fact 3150 fps seems to be a magic number with the 25-06 and the 280 Ackley (and little bit with the 270 using 110 grain bullets).A friend of mine told how he solved his problem with loose primer pockets. He tapes scotch tape over the primer pocket before seating the primer. He said it also increased accuracy. Not sure how it increased accuracy but I tried it with my 308 and it works. Another friend that really lives on the edge with his 270 loads gave me some brass with loose pockets. I am going to try using scotch tape with my 270 and see how that goes. Before you say I may be creating hotter primer fire and increasing pressure, I may be, but I don't hot rod my reloads the way he does.

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from First trog wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I own a .300 win mag and a .270 win. and don't feel that either one kicks the poo out of me. I've killed many deer with my .270 and love it's performance. Most were shot at less than 100 yds. The longest approx.400 yds. I bought the .300 to hunt elk and moose to date I've only been on one elk hunt and still have my tag. I've shot two deer with the .300 mag. One at approx. 100 yds., heart shot,one at approx. 25 yds. neck shot. The meat was not blown apart I think the .270 does more damage to meat. Now that my son hunts with me he uses the .300 it fits him better and he is about 4 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier. He thinks the .270 kicks harder. Point being it's personal choice both very good rounds and round for round no punishing recoil or noticable muzzle blast.

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Black Rifle Addict:I don't have a problem with the 7mm Rem Mag, or the .300 Win Mag. Except, I don't like the recoil and my .270 Win will hand load to near 7mm Rem Mag performance with less powder and recoil. Some folks can handle recoil, I just happen to be one of those "can't" folks! Had an old gunsmith tell me once, the only reason they built 3" shotguns was so the Cajuns in south Louisiana could hear racket and feel pain when they pulled the trigger! (I shoot 2 3/4", even on turkey!)Del in KS:I can't think of a round that was developed off the .30-'06 case that isn't a jim dandy performer and pleasant to shoot!A couple more rounds we forgot: the .300 Savage and the .250 Savage, or .250-3000 as it was originally called. Both sweet rounds and pleasant to shoot!Jack Ryan:Yep, I'll spout rhetoric all day long about my .270 Win and how I can hand load it to near 7mm Rem Mag factory specs. But, (there's that but {butt!?} again!) if Joe Bob wants to perforate his deer with a .460 Wby necked down to shoot phonograph needles, sobeit! It's his deer, his venison, his shoulder! I want a .277 inch entry wound. Less damage, less recoil, but the deer ain't any "less" dead!Bubba

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from Jack Ryan wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I own a 30-06. I remember reading some where it's the "yard stick" all other caliburs are measured by and looking through a few reloading manuals and this column of comments I tend to agree. Seems it would kill about any thing that walks.Still I just don't get all this "I'll never...", the hissing, brandishing cross's, and tossing of holy water at various cartridges just because they happen to include the word "magnum".The first thing any rifle/cartridge combo has to accomplish is to make a hole where you point it. Once that's accomplished, any time you can do it faster, bigger, or harder and still put the hole where you want it then how could it possibly not be better?Is it something in the lead that makes hunters get all puffed up and start spouting rhetoric and proclimations that just don't make any sense? Faster, harder, bigger all equal making that hole farther away just as big as slower, lighter, smaller makes it up closer. Any time you push something one way it pushes back with an equal force. It's just physics regardless of the eloquent romaticisms of the writer and the only question is do you want faster, bigger, harder, and further away bad enough to put up with the "push back" the cartridge is going to give you. It doesn't make you a hero to take a pounding killing a white tail deer 70 yards away nor does it make you a fool if you'd rather whack one from a nice dry hill side than belly crawl through the mud trying to sneak with in range with a hundred year old cartridge in a lever action.One shot, one kill, and you can't do better than that. Use the tool giving you the best chance of getting the job done. The game you pursue desearves nothing less.

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Ishawooa,I'll bet your neighbor got his bear either on the Alaskan Peninsula or Kodiak Island If it squares 10 ft or more.

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Robert Sprague,In '73 I bought my first bolt gun a M700 Rem in 7mm rem mag. It had the hideous impressed checkering and looked worse than Hillary's buns. The very first load tried out of the Speer manual was 115 gr Speer HP bullet with IMR4350 powder. An Army gunsmith did a trigger job on it and it put 5 into one hole the first time I shot it. It would outshoot his Rem 40XB. I sold the gun to a guy that looked at the groups and had to have it. He gave me $30 more (1974 dollars) than I paid for it. Little did I know that after all these years and many guns there has never been another that would shoot like that one.Bubba,You left out my all time favorite the 25-06. It has light recoil and shoots 100gr Barnes XXX bullets an honest 3300 fps. It's also deadly as 10,000 volts.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

By the way my neighbor got back from Alaska last night with his Brown bear. His wife told me that it is huge but she does not know what it squared yet. I am heading over to look at it and will report back. I figure it is at least B & C since that is all he will shoot. I on the other hand, well that's another story.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Without reading any posts but Dave's I will add my biased and no doubt misguided opinion. I agree concerning the 7mm Rem (I have visited the ranch where Mike Walker and Les Bowman developed loads for the .284 RCBS or .284 Bowman, or .284 Rem Mag or as it was finally marketed the 7 mm Rem Mag and routinely hunt in the mountains where it was baptized, not that this means a damn thing, just thought I would throw it in). As some of you might remember I presently possess or have owned a considerable number of rifles in many calibers and cases. All were used for their intended purpose, some a lot. I now find myself shooting the 7 mm-08 for deer and antelope. The .338 Win Mag has never failed me on elk or moose. I have been trying to kill a black bear with it but for years never see the bear when I have the .338 with me. Today my best foxtrotter gelding somehow got into the fence wire for the first time in his 15 years so unless I take my second rate horses the hunt is off for the weekend. The vet bill will equal a Weatherby in value I am figuring. Anyway I recently added one more rifle that does meet the standards of outperforming a 7 mm anything and that is my new custom 7 mm x 404. 160 gr. Berger VLD at 3420. Long and heavy but that is the horse's problem not mine to any great extent. I can hit a 18 inch circle consistently at 1000 yards. And yes in my part of Wyoming sometimes you either shoot at 500 to 1000 yards or go home and boil your tag. Actually around here 500 yard shots are commonplace. Folks make the kill using '06's and .270's in front of my eyes at that range. Consequently I once had a friend drop a decent mulie at about 525 and we watched its clone walk out of the woods to closely examine its fallen brother. I shot it with a 7 mm Rem and 160 Nosler. It dropped but no better than the .270 hit buck. They were less than 10 yards apart. Love or hate the 7 mm x 404 (near clone of 7 mm Rem Ultra) it is an outstanding performer so far. Give me a .22-.250, a .270 Win., a .338 Win., and a .458 Lott and I am happy. Then why do I have all these other rifles? Some are loaners, some are pretty, some are unique, but mostly they are wants and not needs. Fortunately I have been financially able to acquire them although my fortunes in other areas of life have turned out to be less than I had hoped for...

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from Bernie Kuntz wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

The discussion was supposed to be about magnums that are really, what shall we say, not what they should be? We are not discussing lesser cartridges, which I whole-heartly agree are more than ample for 90 percent of big game hunting.Dave's point, I believe, is that the 7mm Rem. Mag. and the .300 Win. Mag. didn't accomplish enough ballistically to justify their existence. That is why I own a 7mm Weatherby Magnum and a .300 Weatherby Magnum. I believe both cartridges exemplify the 7mm caliber and the .300 calibers. Any more powder capacity in either cartridge is extreme and approaches insanity.

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from brian wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I own a 7 mag, and a couple of 7mm mausers. I really enjoy the mausers, I dread the magnum. I looking foward to trading the mag.

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from Thomas wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Is there any wonder why the .22LR and the .30/06 is in almost every hunting arsenal. Sure you can have any rifle and caliber you wish or chose. But most people have one or both. Unfortunitly I have more .22's then I can shoot in an afternoon.Tom the Troll

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from Black Rifle Addict wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Dave...why are you beating up on my beloved 700 Rem mag?(and my son's 300Win mag?)Even if one can achieve only limited ballistic improvement to a bullet, it's not paper ballistics that keep a caliber/round alive over the years;It's there preformance in the field that counts.These two rounds have proven themselves over the years, and if a hunter is confident with a rifle why must we berate their records on this blog?Anyone agree with me out there in blog land?

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

BTWI bought my nephew a NEF Handi-rifle blued/synthetic. After the rifle arrived and I picked it up, it dawned on me the recoil might be a bit much because of the light weight!After screwing an older Weaver K4 I had stuck back for such emergencies, off we went to the range for a 25 yard session.Suprisingly, the recoil was about like my No. 1! Not bad at all!Bubbap.s. - It's a real tack driver after an old 'smithing buddy dressed the crown down a bit! It had a little booger in it that confounded the boy and ME for several rounds before I thought to check it!

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Thank you Dave P.!!!More than once on this blog I have touted the .270 Win. I spent some time working in a gun shop and have tripped the sear on more than one caliber. The only gun I ever had truly "hurt" me, was an M77 Ruger in .338 Win Mag. It belonged to an older fella we called "Big Daddy" because of his knowledge of firearms and his proficiency with them! He had tricked out this bazooka and developed some hand loads for an upcoming Colorado elk hunt! They chided me for days for not being able to "take" the recoil! I even shot a .458 Win Mag M77 that was unbelievably comfortable!I shoot .270 Win in a bolt gun and a Ruger No. 1! Both have mild recoil with the Ruger's weight cutting it's recoil just a bit more! Both very accurate and very reliable.The biggest difference in the two? The chambers! I can sit in the house and peck out loads with my old Lee Loader and they function in my bolt gun just fine. The No. 1 lacks about 1/8th inch swallowing the round, making it impossible to close the action. To load for the No. 1, I must go to the bench!My load is 46.5 grs of IMR 4895, std Win large rifle primer and a 130 gr Sierra BTSP for a round that is very close to a factory round.If I ever slip the sear on a deer and he doesn't go down, I know it was me! NOT the gun or the load!Very nice rounds that will do an excellent job on deer without recoil:7x57.270 Win.30-'06.30-30.308 Win7mm-08.257 Rbts.35 RemThere are lots more, these are just a few that come readily to mind!Bubba

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from NH Philosopher wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I enjoy shooting my 300 win mag - particularly when out for Elk and long 250+ meter shots at muleys and whitetails.I know it's more than I need - but its a versatile weapon that I can use in various hunting situations. Granted me 30.06 is also versatile, but for somereason I dig the 300 win mag over most of the riles I own - including:30-30.27030.06.243Has nothing to do with being Macho or any other non-sensical pyschographic mumbo jumbo. I am partial to the rifle's feel, it's pinpoint accuracy and the way it drives 165 grain hornady SST boattails. the rifle's a tack driver.

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from Beekeeper wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Jim Carmichael (Sorry Dave) said never chrono your favorite hunting load. He was right. A buddy paid more than good money for a .300 WSM. He came over extolling all kinds of borscht about velocity gains and short actions, etc...Another friend of mine is lucky enough to own a 600 yd. range. We took his new toy over and the range owner just happend to be using his chrono while ringing out a new rife. We shot the .300 WSM with factory ammo over the screens. Surprise, it fell well short of the claims. We shot my 30/06 with my mutt and jeff middle of chart handloads. Same barrel length, my '06 averaged only 80 fps slower than his short mag. My buddy almost cried. By the way, the short, light little rifle is beast off the bench... My '06 is push over!Also, if you need something a little bigger. Don't sell the 338-06 short. A 200 grain bullet at 2700 plus will do a lot. Recoil is about that of a full house 180 grain load in the '06.

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from KJ wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Where I hunt the action is pretty close-up; a long shot is about 80 yards, and in some places the timber is so thick you can't see a deer 30 yards away. My 30-30 has always been perfect for that kind of hunting. I have a .30-06 but have never needed its reach. Still, I know lots of guys that hunt with 7mm and .300 mags. I think it has something to do with their sense of what "macho" is. Somehow they equate getting busted in the face with a rifle stock with manly virility. I'm not sure that's "thinking with the wrong head," but it isn't smart.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I get great service against deer with my .243 Winchester pushing a 100 grain bullet. I'd up gun to .30-06 for moose, or elk but otherwise don't need anything more powerful than the .243. I've never been strongly tempted to hunt bear. I see the pix and think "Do people really eat that thing?"

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from Jim wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I have 2 7mm Rem Mags, one my dad bought for an elk hunt in 1990 (made in early 70's) and one I got for xmas 3 years ago when cabelas was selling the 2003 shot show special 700 for $400. I haven't even shot my new one. I'm having to much fun and success with my ABolt 7mm/08 and .243 WSSM. The 7Mag is for any open country hunt and any time I might hunt bigger game. Dont think I will use it for a while. With ammo becoming more and more expensive. Look for people to quit feeding their beasts and taking out the old .30-30's and .30-06's which always have ammo for relatively low prices.

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from Mark-1 wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I’ve used both the 7mm Mag and 300 Mag. There’s nothing wrong with either cartridge, although I think the neck on the 300 Mag is short.I’ve had long and thick experience with 7mm bullets in 7 x 57, 280, and 7mm Mag. If there is any difference in killing power or accuracy between any of these cartridges in comparable rifles out the 300-yrad range, I couldn’t see it.BTW I think all the major loading companies load the 7mm Mag to the max. I could never handload comparable bullet weights that rocked like the factory loads.

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from CoRoMo wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I can't imagine ever needing to flush my cash down on a magnum rifle. I'll never own one.My .270 had dropped all the elk I've crosshaired with one shot. If I ever draw that moose tag, I'll use the .30/06 and be done with it.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Dr. R,Who knows because of your size the mag may have been jolting you more than the boy. About eight years ago I was at the range and next to me was Fred Miller off. tackle of Rams (now with Titans I think). We both were shooting '06s but because of his size he was taking quite a jolt (his body not giving) while my much smaller body gave with the punch.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I've never understood the fascination with the newer, faster, better cartridges. Pretty much all of my guns are chambered for something that has 100 years of experience to back it up. 7X57 is an excellent game stopper with extremely mild recoil as is the 30-30. I'm a fairly large man or at least not small and the 30-06 is about as much gun as I can shoot comfortably, and it works on everything. It is my favorite but probably because it was my father's and it's a shooter... I did experiment with a .257 Wby. Mag. and was not impressed with it's knock down power at ranges typical of rural Tennessee. Of course the average deer is killed at 17 yards so obviously that was not what Roy had in mind for this particular cartridge.Last year I took my daughter's 16 year old boyfriend out because he had never killed a deer. His father is a disabled cop and so they hunt ducks from a blind mainly. He brought along a Ruger 7mm Mag and missed his first doe at less than 50 yards... I had shot this gun three times and put up about an inch group at 100 yards and so I knew it was sighted in but it hurt me and I outweigh the boy by 80 pounds. I can't imagine what it feels like to him. Anyway he did drop the second doe that meandered his way but if I could just convince him that all that pain is not necessary he would hunt more and better. I blame it on the manufacturers who are unwittingly running kids away from the shooting sports with their Ultra Mags and 3 1/2" shotgun shells...

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from dartwick wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I think people often discount the importance of power more than they should.Not every shot is perfect, and a more damaging bullet does help compensate for an less than idea hit.But of course accuracy matters more than power. So never trade But accuracy for damage.If you can expand a fairly large bullet and go nearly through your prey then you arent going to be much better off with a bigger gun.This is why on the most common big game - deer, you gain little by going beyond a .270 or .308(unless you find the need to shoot long range.)But just as a .270 gives you bigger "quick kill" zone than a .243 on a deer, a .300 gives you a bigger zone on an Elk.If youre the ideal restrained hunter who aways waits for the good shot and doesnt miss then you lose little by sticking with a small gun.If youre normal then power helps.The ideal gun is one you wont flinch from but can shoot an expanded bullet through the torso of your target. That rarely exists though.

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from Jason N. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

It still boils down to bullet placement,how much you practice and how comfortable you are to your rifle.Rifle calibers get blamed for poor performance but alot of hunters dont match bullet type to what game they are shooting. Example a controlled expansion bullet for pronghorns. Then complained that it didnt knock the buck off its feet.

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from Robert W. Sprague wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Dave, I need to stick up for my favorite cartridge/rifle combo, even when it defies logic. I have an early 7 mag model 700, manufactured with a stainless steel barrel with a sickly looking bluing job. The thing is as ugly as Mrs. Clinton in good light. I blundered on a load of 63.5 of IMR 4831 behind a 140gr ballistic tip. It comes out at 3000 on my chronograph, and shoots into 5/8" on a bad day, and .25 on a good day. I have killed everything from ground squirrels to 350lb wild pigs, with too many coyotes and deer in between to count. If it kicks any more than a 30-06, I can't tell, and since the load is somewhat attenuated, the cases can be reloaded multiple times with very little streching. I agree the animals don't know if that bullet came from 7mag or a 7-08. I have talked to alot of people who have similar experiences with a Rem 700 in 7 mag. Anybody else have a similar story?

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from SD Bob wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Remember several topics ago when Dave threw us for a loop by going .338 win mag on us after touting the enjoyment of lesser rounds for so long? It appears his senior moment is over and the short actions are making a comeback. Lets us not forget though that if it is not a $700 model 70 tricked out to cost 12 grand, the bullets will inevitably bounce right off the side of any animal. The only solution for those who don't have $12,700 is to buy a belted magnum for $600 so it can penetrate the shield of crapulence every animal has!

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from Harold wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Well, since Americans like numbers, here's some numbers:A friend and I were hunting elk here in WY a few years back. He was armed with his 7mm magnum, firing a 160 gr. Nosler partition at just over 2900 fps. I was armed with my 7X57, shooting a 140 gr. Nosler partition at just over 2900 fps. We both killer bulls. Mine was a little larger and died with one shot. His took several rounds to dispatch. Comparing the bullet holes from both cartridges, they were pretty much identical.Now tell me, what advantage do you get with that extra 20 gr. of copper and lead?

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I've wondered about the usefulness of the .30/378 Weatherby. Sure it'll scrap dust off a chalkline at 500yds but, given its velocity what would happen if an elk passed by at 30yds? Would the bullet hold together? If it did, would expansion be so great that penetration would be limited?

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from Andrew wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

A 270 is perfect for deer. Many people buy a bigger gun thinking if I ever hunt bear in Alaska I'll need the extra power and they end up with way too much kick for 99% of their hunting. Buy the right tool for the hunting you do most often and you can't go wrong. If you hunt different game a 30/06 a great versatile choice. For my hunting magnums are a waste of money and meat.

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from JP wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I have noticed my grouping is much tighter with the non-mags ie:.270,.280,.30/06 than the mags. The "flinch" factor plays a part and its just not as enjoyable to shoot. I found myself loading down the magnum for deer and it equaled out to an .30/06 load and if I want to hunt Elk or other larger game, loading it up. Just a nice option with the .300 Mag. You can load an .30/06 up but I found I liked the bigger .300 Mag loads better.

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from jstreet wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

There will always be the "bigger is better" group of folks that gun/ammo makers love.They are the group that sells perfectly good firearms (usually at a loss) to buy a new wondergun that kicks their teeth loose and they end up selling it (usually @ a loss) to purchase either the next new wondergun (if they haven't learned their lesson) or buy what they had to begin with.And the cycle continues......Jim

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Thats what I always thought, extremely long distance.The only way I'd go bigger than my '06 is for a 338 for bigger game.

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from Dennis L. Crabtrey II wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Finally,Someone who agrees with me. You don't need a magnum cartridge for the majority of shooting, only for those VERY rare occasions where a long shot is required and unavoidable.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 20 weeks ago

The best thing I love about the 7mm Rem. Mag cases and not the rifle is the cases make beautiful 338 Win Magnum!

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from O Garcia wrote 5 years 20 weeks ago

When people buy a Remington 7mag, it's not really the Remington they think they're buying, but the legend of Warren Page's 7mm Mashburn Super Magnum (which is really the equivalent of the 7mm STW), and its golden standard of 3,000 fps for 175-grain bullets. Even young shooters who never read Page had heard the legend through their mentors (fathers, older brothers, uncles, etc.).That's why they end up being disappointed.Of course, they can always save up for those hard to find German RWS factory loads in 7mm Rem. Mag. Then they'll find they're in 7mm Weatherby territory.To its credit, the 7mm Rem. Mag. does its stuff while managing to stay around 58,000-61,000 PSI (I'm looking at the Hodgdon reloading manual). It is, one might say, a "relatively" low pressure round. The 7mm Wby, which more or less equals the Mashburn, operates at 65,000PSI.

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from 7.62NATO wrote 5 years 22 weeks ago

By the way the Weatherby guy says it all,his calibers are extreme overbore and very throat erosive with little gain over 7mm rem or .300 win mag,however these 2 ,in particular the BIG 7, take the concept of a comfortable shooting, shoulder fired, magazine feed weapon, in comfortable carrying weight to a perfect balance.As Carmichael said it dosent exist on this planet it cant take and when the ranges gets long the 7mm catches up to bigger" up close hitters".I imagine i'd have to run up ,pick up my 130SBT from my .270 and fire it again to match the 7 in the long range department.Just kidding for any of you O'Connor disciples.

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from 7.62NATO wrote 5 years 22 weeks ago

Wow lots of 7mm mag brow beaters,.270 win approaching 7mm mag handloads are you on crack.My Mod 70 will shoot 3000fps all day with 175 sierra Gamekings MOA do the terminal velocity and enerry and penetration on this load,i use a mod 70 feahterweight in .270 and a lightweight in 06 ,great rifles but let me tell you this they are not nore will ever be the long range smooth shooting beast the BIG 7 is,and talking about recoil come on guys give me a break its a big game rifle not a 60 rounds prone sniper grow up ffs.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 29 weeks ago

Clay,Your gonna have to get that recipe, I saw some of those but don't have good data to use on them. Oh yea, I wasn't thinking about deer while I was looking them over maybe something bigger. Right now 165s are just fine for deer but my barrel is just 22 inch.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 29 weeks ago

Jim in Mo.I got some Hornady 190 grain soft point boat tails loaded for one of 3 of my 30-06 sizlin at 2814fps will knock that dears $!ck in the dirt!!

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 29 weeks ago

Coop:I agree on the ability of a jackrabbit to "tote lead". Shortly after I moved to Wyoming almost three decades ago that one animal proved to amaze me more than any other. I repeatedly saw them go down, get up, and run after taking a hot .22-250 or 25-06. Not always but enough to impress me. This never happened with prairie dogs or picket pins and seldom with coyotes. I hate to admit it but once I watched a narrow gauge mule (jackrabbit)take seven hits of various types at very long range from a .22-250 with 52 gr bthp match grade bullets at about 3800 before it gave it up. I don't shoot them any more prefering just to scare them so as to watch their high and wild antics as they rush through the sage. This never fails to bring a smile to my old and ugly face.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 29 weeks ago

Meant to say 165 Interlock handloads. When I first started loading I had the ignorance to think I invented this particular load, then after I read two or three different manuals I realized I was just using a good time tested load.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 29 weeks ago

Coop,IMHO I would never use a 130 gr bullet in an 300mag or '06 here in Mo. We get to many close shots. You've heard me moan about almost losing (my sons) deer using a 150 gr. bullet (Fusion) at 10 yds. Damn thing just blew up! If we had more predictable shots here then planning would be easier. As far as 180soft pt. bullets I think they're just fine for close shots on deer and black bear, so after that last fiasco I just load the boy up with Core Loks and I stay with my handload 165, both '06.Done any Bream or Cat fishin on Beaver lately? Should be bitin. See Ya.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 29 weeks ago

By the way, the hardest critter of all I know of is the Jackrabbit. Blow them in half and they still keep going!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 29 weeks ago

Locke MellottI cannot let this one slide by!Largest game for 270 and 25-06 is Elk period 270 and 25-06 is defiantly not recommended for moose unless you want to be tracking it for hours and you need your ass kicked for using it! I’ve shot more White tail, Black Tail and Mule Deer with my 22-250 than all my rifles combined and the Moose to save argument, the shot placement behind the ear I could have used my 22-250 instead of my 338 Win Mag that really scrambled Bullwinkle’s brain.Now where you come up with the thought of magnum cartridges are made for magnum animals is that of a novice and not of an experienced hunter. A 300 Win Mag with a 130 grain bullet sizzling around 3500 fps is Ideal for deer and a 30 cal 110 grain soft point at 3800 fps is a blast on yodel dogs and jackrabbits! Knowing how hardy the critter is to knockdown is where you match the cartridge and bullet weight in accordance with the terrain, distance and environment (crosswind etc) conditions for the best performance. 180 on deer is ridicules!!True you don’t really need a magnum because normally all shots are less than 250 and a 30-06 will do a fantastic job including moose! By the way a 270 with a 130 grain is ideal for Caribou!

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from Locke Mellott wrote 5 years 29 weeks ago

You don't need a three quarter ton or bigger pickup to pull a jetski. You do need one to pull a 32 foot camper/trailer. If someone only pulls a jetski with their half ton pickup and thinks they have a tow vehicle, it would be tough to argue with them until they hook up to a big trailer and take it a few miles down the road, providing they don't burn out their transmission. There are some good vehicle operators out there, that CAN pull a trailer with a half ton, but they do it very carefully and have experience towing things.There seems to be a lot of misconception of what a magnum big game rifle is for. It isn't intended for deer or antelope as many hunters would possibly think, although it can be used in this way. The increased amount of powder in a magnum case is generating enough power to accelerate heavier bullets/more to expand and penetrate, to standard or slightly above standard speed, FOR BIG GAME.The secret is understanding the proper application of the tool for the job at hand.Magnum rifles are made for big, tough animals. They can push heavy bullets at relatively high speeds. This causes a lot of noise and recoil over a standard cartridge, and much caution needs to be taken on the bench and sighting the rifle in. If done properly and prudently, a magnum rifle will cause no more flinch than a standard rifle.I used to use 165 grain projectiles in a .300 Weatherby because of the "hotrod" numbers and the flat trajectory. After shooting this for five years and wondering why I wouldn't get full penetration on a 60lb yearling or only 14" of penetration on a black bears tenderloin (where the bullet actually veered from it's intended path to follow the grain of the muscle because the mushroom cloud shape it was pushing lost all powers of penetration), I have changed my mind. I had to learn the hard way. Now, enlightened to what the utility of that extra powder is for, I use a 200 grain projectile, and drive it just 300 fps slower. My downrange energy is greatly increased, and wind drift is diminished considerably. And what Jim Carmichael calls "use a cartridge with enough punch" factor is present.When I read posts of people complaining of how a magnum rifle makes their shoulder sore, I just think that the person has not learned or acknowledged the many ways to mitigate the noise and buck of the larger shell. The recoil is ALMOST never felt in the field. And I have had a poorly fitting '06 cause some pretty bad flinching before I became enlightened to the padding and other recoil dampening products available to the shooter/hunter.If a person hunts big game, ie. bear, elk, moose, at big yardages, ie. over 250 yards regularly, they will quickly wise up to the fact that magnum cartridges are made for magnum animals.Consider this. A 55 grain .22 caliber bullet is adequate for a 40 pound coyote. A 100 grain .243 bullet is completely adequate for 100 pound deer. A grain of bullet for a pound of body weight. The same criteria however would not hardly apply for 650-700lb elk unless of course you are using a BMG or a large .700 Nitro Express.I have hunted coyotes a great plenty, and had much success with the .223 Remington, however, I have had bullet failures, and isolated incidents which have made me be more careful with shot placement than I have to be when shooting my 6mm loaded with 75 or 80 grain bullets. The same goes for big game. You can use a .270 or a .25-06 class rifle for bear, elk and moose all day long with the proper application of bullet, yardage, shot placement, etc., but when one of these variables isn't quite right for the situation, you will eventually run into problems.And that is what magnum rifles are for.

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from Rocky MtnHunter wrote 5 years 44 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter; Glad you were abe to draw Mt. I was upset that I failed both C0 and MT. Nevr dreamed mssing MT as always drew MT.Wth 2.400 combotags available, felt sure would draw.Called The MT game dept and the girl told me they had over 21000 to apply . I could not believe that with teh ecomony as it is. I'd have bet a lot of $ I would draw. I had already gotten plane fares, motel, rental car, etc. and the Guy I hunt with on his ranch had cleared some areas for me to park my vehicle. O well, just was not my year it appears. Just hope can make it next year. Will just hunt every day I can here at home adn in Va. Our hunt is 5 weeks together, they need to change it adn have a week or 2 break so the season goes afterChristmas for those guys who got guns , etc for Christmas.I hate to wait nearly a year to use what i receive at Christmas. Family know my feelings on guns, so they let em buy what I want prior to seasons. I bought teh MArlin as soon as could find one I wanted one or the first,as Rem bought out MArlin, and Rem ws bouht bya investment groupe just to make $$$, I was afraid if I got one after Rem ws involved gun might not be up to par. But it hs a low S# so know its a true MArlin. At lest the quality is there and do believe its a copy of a Winchester 70. My only objection is teh bbl length, wish ws 24 rathe than 22. But if will shot as well as my othr 700's in 22" will be happy. I zero all my big game guns at a true 200 yards, none of this l00 yrd stuff and shoot 2" hight to hit 200. Some guns will shot eratic after l00 yds,adn I want a true 200 yds zero.With my Rems, can put 3 rounds in a 2" area of bulls eye every time.. Take care, have fun in C0. Hey if you go to Craig, C0 be sure and go to their Museum, its treat. More later. Time to hit the hay.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

RMHI hear you. I failed to draw a Combo License in Montana this year, too. I've still got my Colorado hunt in late October though. Over the counter bull tags in Unit 13 still. I haven't seen the results of the CO deer draw we put in for. I was going to try and hunt the Missouri Breaks for mule deer after the Colorado hunt, but no more dreaming and scheming about that since I didn't draw. I think I will put in for a Washington state late deer hunt since it is only another $5 on top of the big game license and see what happens.Good luck on your Marlin. I still haven't seen one in my local gun shops.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

Jim in MO; Yep, live in N.C. about 30 miles north of Winston Salem, N.C. I fly out of Charlotte as the plane I take to Denver begins in FL and if I boarded a plane in Greensboro, N>C.( is nearer ) would have to change planes in Charlotte. By going from Charlotte, it's a direct flight to Denver, C0, then a smaller Commuter plane ( 55 passenger) to Missoula, MT.. AS I failed to draw in 3 states this year, will hunt w-tails here and at my Daughters in Virginia. We have a week of B/P then 4 weeks of rifle. In Va, when I go will be B/P for 3 weeks. I'm not really fond of B/P, but when can hunt don't matter. i got 3 B/P rifles.A T/C Renegade 50 Cal.; a HAwken in 54 Cal; and a CVA in-line 50 Cal. I like the T/C 54 Cal, with tht long bbl, it will reach out further than the others with 24" bbl.s Would like a new T/C Break action, but got to many guns now.@ 73 yrs old, these will out-last me I'm sure. Just want my gun smith to get well and make the front sight for the XL7 MArlin work, so scope is closer to my eyes.Have you seen, shot the new MArlin? I think you will be impressed with the gun. It appears to be a Clone of a Winchester 70 in some respects, Love the new trigger.The only syn stocked gun I have seen that the stock really fits the metal, no open space around it. I got the syn black stock with cheek piece, blue bbl to haul about on my 4 wheeler and truck. Caliber is 270, the first 270 ever owned or shot. Just hated to beat up my walnut stocked guns. When I go to the Rockies, I take a 700 30-06 CDL, and a 700 Classic 25-06. That 25-06 is a flat shoting gun, so is the 06 with the l80 gr Scricco's ammo. I'm a firm believer that Ammo is a major difference in shot placement. Don;t buy dime store ammo for a several thousand hunt if you lucky enough to draw and can go. I;ve hunted since I was 10 ys old.My first deer hunt was in l952 and I was hooked. I eat, sleep, breath guns and hunting. Would love to go to Canada for Caribou, but may not be able to walk up there.Being disabled and walk with a cane or Bi-pod when hunting, kinda hard to cover rough ground. I mostly stand hunt, but now and then will take the 336 and fidde along in the woods slowly. On my farm, have 2 ponds and much timber growth around both, a great place for a big old Buck to lay up in hot weather. I slip in from the south, as usually the wind comes thru the valley from the south. I mostly hunt from ground Blinds that I put up about 1-2 weeks prior to season and leave up till season is over. With the blinds and my Buddy Heater I can stay warm. After my sicknes in 90-91 I lost 50 lbs, and now I freeze when temp drops below 40. I lost all my insulation with that 50 lbs. Ok, enough gabbing about me. Take care.The Old Gunslinger

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

P.S.,When I was in the Army I used to fly in/out of Raleigh, if you use Charlotte you must be in SE, N.C.?

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

RMH,I live about 40 miles north of STL which is 40 miles to close. Looking for ground north to buy but need to buy at least 3 acres or more to get permit to put in septic tank legally.If things go right I'll go to the range tomorrow to test out the new Hornady ammo. Will let you know the results, but as of now I expect good results.This fall, if my hunting spot is still available, I'm taking that gun to try to get a deer first. I've let it sit to long and it works great in Missouri, deserves annother deer.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

Jim in MO: Yep, gota 336 MArlin in 30-30. My first big game rifle was a Winchester 30-30, that was back in l952. Like a Idiot then, traded for a Rem Auto. I also had a 336in 35, wsunable to find Ammo most times,so traded it off for something. I want to try the new Ammo, let me know how it works for you. Maybe a gun forgotten but surges back to life. every hunter needs a lever 30-30. I use mine now and then when I feel up to creeping thru the many woods we have on my place. I have a folding stool with straps like on a back pack that I take along.I will slp thru the trees very slow,then find a huge Oak and sit for a while.If no luck, will move on.May take me mot of a day to make a circle and covr maybe 4 miles. But walking with a cane ( now I use shooting sticks for cane), I move very slowly and watch ahead of me.My 336 is non-scoped, but did replace the orig sights with fiber optic ones, I keep the orig sights.My Gun Smith is having leg problems and must stay off his feet for 2 more weeks, then I plan for him to re-make a front Weaver base for my Marlin XL7. The factory job, the base sticks out over the shell opening about l/2" and I don;t like that, a hang up by spent shell could lodge there and then I would be all bent out of shape.I calledMarlin,as they advertie a one piece base, they sent 2 more tht came with the gun, made by Weaver. I use to use only Weavers, but switched to Leupold Dual Dove Tails, thes new Weaves look cheap.If not for the cross bolt,doubt they would stay in place. THe front sight on the Weaver will fit eithe way back or forward, but will not allow the scope to come back close enough for me to get the full view of my scope. I got a Bushnell Buckhorn 3.5 x 9 x 10 had a few yeas I planned to use, but just don;t focus like teh Nikons. So may end up with buying another Monarch by Nikon, as I have on my other 4 hunting rifles. Tryig to save a few bucks so can go back west when-ever i draw again.Can you believe with ecomony in the pits,that MT had 12.400 Combo tags available and 21.000 huntes applied???? I though would be no problem in drawing this year. I also failed to draw in C0,only KY left,draw is July I think.Do believe many former C0 hunters thought the winter kill in C0 was worse than stated, nearly 50-70% that, those guys applied for Montana. Never had problem in drawing in prior years, . Hopefully I can draw once more, as want a nice Mulie.May try to make contacts in WY for a Mulie and Lopes if seasons close together. Wher Ihunt in MT,a private ranch, has some Mulies, but they up too high for me to get to,same as the Elk unless a Snow falls early and pushes them lower.I can get up to 7K feet ok, but they at about 10K feet , or was 2 yrs ago. Let me know on the new Ammo, I want to try if they work.When I get my XL7 scoped and zeroed will let you know how it works. Shoot-um-straight and very often.The old Southern Gun Slinger. Hey, what area in Mo do you live? I as thru ther l0 ys ago when we drove teh MH 10K miles in 28 staes, gone 3 months. Glad i did as burned 2700.00 in gas then. Now would be like 10K bucks.On that trip,gas was around l.l0 -l25.Only one place in the salt flats I had to pay l.69,but that little town ws 200 miles east of Reno.. Also, check plane fares a few weeks ago. In 2003, plane tickestscost me $337.00 From Charlotte, N.C. to Missoula ,MT now they cost me over $800.00 each.When I return,hopefully can find another couple to go along and us drive. But all the hunters near me,all young and can;t be gone 4-6 weeks.. The older retired guys, care less about hunting. They rather Yard sale or sit on Butts and watch TV.Chat again soon.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

RMH,Hey, you got a 336? I've had one chambered for .35Rem. for 25yrs. Got the new Fejestads gun values book and found out it was made in '64. No wonder its stock is as pretty as it is and would never sell it unless a rich man wanted to exchange his H&H Royal and throw in a box of ammo. It shoots all common loads (Win,Rem,Fed) about the same, 2 1/2 at 100yds. Bought a reloading die about 6 yrs ago when I had trouble finding ammo a week before deer season. Bad time to stock up on ammo.Today I bought some of the the Hornady Lever Evolution ammo for it just to try. If it gives same accuracy I'll use it because they really reduced the price. Was near $30 a box when new, now $20. I just have a hard time believeing the factory saying it will do 2225fps. Don't have a chrono but if its accurate I'll keep buying it.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

99 times out ofa 100 its the shooter who screws up, not the caliber or load. I've hunted the West many time for Elk, Mulies, Lopes, and w-tails there and here. I got several 30-06's and with the many loadsavailable for the o6, the average hunter does not need a larger caliber. I am disabled and the 30-06 works fie for me. I shoot Rem Scricco's 180 grs when Elk and Deer hunting the Rockies and l50's grains Core-lokt here. To my way od shooting,a 30-06 with right bullet will take any N American game, other than maybe the Griz or Brownie. I would never hunt those two bears unless I had a back up shooter with say a 375 or largr. I fully believe with proper bullet placement the 06 with standard ammo would handle the Bears,but why chance it. My 25-06 is my choice for W-tails and Lopes along with my 336 30-30 in thick woods where shots are quick and close.My opinion is most of us never pratice enough and have a Wal-mart 29.95 scope.Buy a quality scope and pratice as much as possible. Prior to my trips wet I begin my pratice session about 2 monts in advance.I try to shoot at least a dozen rounds per week. Once I get the rifle zeroed I never fiddle with changing the 200 yard 0, I just take that in consideration when I shoot at game, as if time permits, I always range teh animal. in 2006 I killed a Lope at 325 yds with Winchesters ll7 gr Ballastic tips and my Deer was shot at 345 yds with l80 gr Scricco's,both animals fell in their tracts.Buy a gun that fits you and pratice a lot. If the gun does not fit you, bet you shop around till you find one that does,.Shoot often-shoot straight, don't skimp on Ammo. AS thats the cheapest item you will use on a Trophy hunt. Why pay thousands of bucks for a Rocky Mtn hunt and use dime store ammo.I bought a new MArlin XL7 in 270 as a haul about gun for my 4 wheeler and truck gun. Have not shot yet, as Gunsmith is sick at present and I want him to rework the scope bases for the front base. I use only Nikon Monarch scopes, glasses, finder, Bincs and a 30 yr old Nikon l step Camera. Gun hunting guys, save a trophy Mulie for me in WY or Montana.Would be a great place to test the new 270.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

Alaskan ExileI feel the same way about my thutty nought six that will put 3 165 gr. Triple Shocks in less than a half inch at 100 yards. Their muzzle departure speed is about 2850 fps.Nosler doesn't make a bulet my rifle will shoot that accurately....I've tried all of them, factory and handloads.

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from AlaskanExile wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

Dave;I enjoy your blog but have to take issue with your statement about the 7mm Remington. The Nosler reloading manual lists a load of R22 behind a 175 grain bullet at 2970 fps. That's pretty close, to say that it can't do it. No it doesn't get to the 'magic' 3000, but so what?I will have to admit that I have not actually tried/chronographed this load in my rifle, but I have a 160gr Barnes TSX load that has on occasion shot 3 bullets touching at 100 yards from my Browning A-Bolt, so I don't mess with that. I know exactly where the bullet is going and what it's going to do when it gets there. Who could ask for more?

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

Just as followup of the previous entry I made regarding a neighbor who recently hunted in B.C. I wanted to add that he did get his grizzley. It squared just over 7 feet, not a big as he wanted but still a nice sized animal. I mentioned it because I figured he would shoot it with a 7 mm Rem Mag which he did throwing a 180 gr Berger. The distance was 735 yards. One shot. This is all on video and will be on TV probably next winter or spring. The rifle has quite a bit of freebore with a 26 inch barrel. His chronograph indicates 3070 fps for the 180's. Some folks can make the old 7 mm work quite nicely especially if they shoot it a lot...and I mean almost every afternoon even if it requires a new barrel every few years. Also he saw 25 black and brown bears in one day and has a picture of 3 black bears all in the same frame.

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from Elmer Keith, Jr. wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

If you can't handle the recoil of a firearm, i suggest you take up bow hunting. You will have to pry my 10.57 Lazzeroni Meteor from my cold, dead hands!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 45 weeks ago

Get in line james t and sarg... I saw her first.

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from james t wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

THAT IS THE PERFECT WOMAN!!!! now only if she hunts and fishes and beats up men, i'm there!!!

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from Mr. Smith goes to Washington wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

The heavens shone on me when I bought my first high-powered rifle, a wonderful 7mm-08. It seems to have more than enough recoil for a newbie like me and frankly I can shoot it better than anyone I know can shoot their "man's" rifles. The deer mustn't know it's only a newbie's gun because they've all dropped where they stood. It really helps if you take out the top of the heart and most of both lungs. Some day when I become a man, I'll get a 300 win mag and start gut shooting stuff. Until that day I'll have to use my "womans" rifle, sad isn't it? I plan to use it on Elk someday. I can only imagine the sh!t I'll take from the guide about being under gunned. Put your money into a GOOD rifle, with a great trigger, good barrel and stop worrying about caliber madness.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

BubbaYour cartridge list looks a lot like my inventory! Except add a .35 Whelen and .358 Winchester and ditch the .270 Win.The .270 is a fine cartridge, indeed. I just never felt the need to have one since everyone else raves about it and I'm a bit of a non-conformist by nature. As a young whippersnapper, I just loved reading Jack O'Conner, but got tired of his rants about the wonders of the .270. Just my opinion, of course.

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from johnnydwson wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I wanted more power from my .270 so I put on a 27.5 inch barrel. With the WC860 machine gun powder, and magnum primers, the 150 grain bullets are noticebly faster. There is less muzzle blast than before I switched to the longer barrel. It holds better on target, weighs more, and kicks less. So if you think you need more power, consider a longer barrel.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I wish I had a dollar for being asked, “What’s the best cartridge?” The real question is, how much punishment you can withstand and still shoot a ½ of pieplate sitting position at 100 yards preferably 200 yards? So what’s the best cartridge then???? In my younger years, I had great desire of owning magnums and even bought a Ruger Model 77 300 Win Mag and shot the barrel out of it and sold it when the second showed signs of washing out. Both the 7mm Rem Mag and the 300 Win Mags are outstanding cartridges with one inherited problem? Practically every owner does not know how to properly choose the weight and type of bullet they need!7mm Rem Mag: The heaviest grain bullet I would use is a 162 grain, any heavier you might as well switch to a 30-06! Note: I found out respectable Hunting Guides in Alaska will tell you 30 calibers starting with 30-06 or larger will only be allowed.300 Win Mag: The heaviest grain bullet I would use is a 190 grain, if I need a real game stopper I’ll pull my 338 Win Mag out!The bottom line is this, I have found out thru all the years growing up, shooting centerfire at extreme distances in Arizona while others shot rimfires, competition shooting and Big game hunting I found the answer to what everyone has been asking and trying to answer, what is the best cartridge to use? The answer is, “What is the largest cartridge shooting a bullet at or above 3000 fps and still hold a ½ PP (pieplate) at 100 yards preferably 200 yards sitting position you can handle?”For deer hunting the bullet weight for 7mmr Rem Mag and 300 Win Mag would be, 7mm Rem Mag 120 to 139 grain and 300 Win Mag 130 to 150 grain. I’ve found that shooting Hornady 130 grain Soft point at 3500 fps is my number one choice for deer!By the way, I dumped that 300 Win Mag and replaced it with a 25-06 and never regretted it!If your shooting a Mag and not thumping 3000fps plus? YOU ARE USING THE WRONG LOAD AND MIGHT AS WELL BE SHOOTING A NONMAGNUM!!!

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from ChevJim wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

It's not kinetic energy or velocity that kills per se, it's the trauma inflicted by the bullet. Today's bullets do a much better job of expanding AND holding together, so a less powerful round with good bullets will kill quicker and cleaner than a more powerful round with less than optimum bullets. I also like the idea of being able to keep the same barrel on a rifle, and the magnums can wear out barrels in short order. It has been said that by the time you find the best load and bullet for a .300 Weatherby, the barrel is pretty much gone. I have shot my .300 Weatherby a lot, however, and the barrel still looks pretty good, but I know it won't last as long as my barrels in .30/06 rifles. When you think about passing rifles on down to your grandchildren, barrel life is something to think about. Also, I think that a good way to discourage young hunters is to hand one a magnum for his first deer rifle. Ya know, shooting and hunting ought not "hurt" the shooter or hunter!

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from jhd05 wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Jim,I shoot a .30-378 and it does an excellent job for me. I hunt in Pine country that is very thick and if an animal goes very far in either direction, it is probably going to be coyote food because tracking is near impossible. I did however, for the first time, shoot a 200lb. deer with it this year. The deer came out at 20 yds (wish i had had my bow). When i shot i thought i missed. It was very early and i couldn't see the impact. I wound up shooting the deer 2 more times before he fell. He only moved about 5 yards from the first to last shot. What i found out when i got down is that the bullet did not expand hardly at all at that range and zipped right through. I use a 180 gr. Barnes X. The deer was dead on the first shot, I just couldn't tell because of the early morning lighting. Other than that incident, I love this gun and everything else i have shot with it never took another step, regardless of distance.

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from Dave Petzal wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

To Dr. Ralph: Thanks, but I make it a point never to date women who have superior firepower.

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from sarg wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Jim in Mo, I agree with you on Harold's loading. That would have to be compressed or wrong figures, My Hornady manual doesen't even show a 140 gr. in 7x57 loading(.284). I'm not doubting Harold's one shot kill on the bull, The 7x57 is probably my favorit round, then the .308 win.

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from sarg wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

A girl after my own heart..

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from sarg wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Harold, what are you comparing? You gave no bullet placement, yardage, etc...

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

WOW DAR SPROTSFANS, HERE WE GO AGAIN!!

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from Dick Mcplenty wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I know randy and his two sons. Randy is a good smith and a good guy.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Dick McPlenty:The idea came from Randy about 20 years ago when he showed me one of the first such rifles that he made but I am just now getting around to having the rifle built. Action work and barrel was by Douglas at their plant in West Virginia. Jim somebody did it, friend of a friend. John Porter (Best of the West field rep, outfitter, realtor, neighbor, and rifle maker) added the Hi-tech stock and his own custom muzzle brake (the first and only brake I own, turns out I actually like it which is a real surprise even to me). It is a real shooter. Randy has used one for decades with great success. He predated the 7 mm Rem Ultra by many years and once actually had Dominion Ammo in Canada loading the 7 mm x 404 plus other creations of his own design. The 7 mm-08 that I speak so highly of was built by Randy back in about 1990. The 7 mm-08 rifle is so perfect I hate to take it to the mountains for fear of blemishing it. I have not looked at Selby's website recently but as I said some time ago it is worth a few minutes of anyone's time. You will enjoy the videos of my local body shop owner and friend Frank doing a little shooting as well as some unique guns made for him so he can continue to hunt and shoot despite an eye problem.I think it is www.randyscustomguns.com.

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from Dick Mcplenty wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Ishawooa that 7mmx404,sounds like a Randy Selby creation.Is it?

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Boy I'd like to be her high value target for a night or two.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Hey Dave, I found you a new girlfriend... punch my name!

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from Zeiss Fan wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Dr. RalphI agree with you about bullet selection being personal.IMO I don't think a 300 win mag is necessary east of the Miss river. On the other hand I think its perfect for hunting west of the Miss river. I love the 30.06 but if I'm shooting at a deer, elk or mule deer out to 300 yards plus I want a 300 in my hand.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Obviously cartridge choice is a very personal thing which elicits responses all over the map. I can see if I were hunting the Western states how velocity would be a much more important factor. I've killed dozens of whitetails and the longest shot I ever took was right at 120 yards and dropped the deer in it's tracks with a muzzle loader and 80 grains of pyrodex, so obviously a 7mm Magnum would probably not be on the top of my list.Now if someone had given me a .300 Win Mag or 7mm Mag twenty years ago and it was a tack driver I would be on here extolling the virtues of the mighty magnum and reminding the rest of you that you were lowly girly men and you might as well take up basket weaving or maybe even fishing...

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from Michael wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

If I could have had the concession on 7mm magnums used in the hill country of Texas to take 85-90 lb. whitetails, I would have retired 30 years ago. One joker even bragged about his 7mm STW (bigger is better) blowing the shoulders off whitetails and exotics. I assume he didn't like venison. The 25-06, 6.5x55, and 7x57 are my favorite guns. If I can't kill an animal with these, I don't need to hunt it. Having said that, I will admit to ordering a Ruger no 1 in 9.3x74 because I am a no 1 fan, and this classic old cartridge should make an excellent hog gun. This is enough rationalization to acquire a new rifle. right, Dave?

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from BJ wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Hey Dave,There are actual uses for .300 WinMag - I bought mine for mule deer in California which demand 3-400 yard shots more times than not. The decision to use a BAR took care of recoil and the possible need (not yet) for a follow-up shot.For the fellow shooting the 2 3/4 shotshells at turkey, I got a Benelli II and the 3 1/2s don't hurt at all.I guess you could drive a Volkswagon Beetle at Indianapolis too!

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Ed J.I haven't been into handloading near as long as you but although I'm lucky my rifle shoots factory well it's not until I handload, neck size only, do the groups get impressive for an off the shelf gun. Also I've never seen any benefits to loading beyond max loads, the velocity increase is nill compared to the hassle of stiff bolts and blown primers, both of which I've done 1 each accidentally.I believe this velocity craze has something to do with some people believe more velocity translates into a bigger bullet.

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from Ed J wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Jim in MoDidn't think you would.O Yeah I got your point. Been handloading since the 1950's. Never had a gun ruined by my handloads. Though a few matches have been won using my handloads.I dond't Know if they expect us to believe some of their statments or not.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Ed J.,No I don't. My point was reading peoples estimation of velocity can be quite amusing. No way a 7x57 has velocity of 7mag despite 20gr bullet weight difference unless loaded that way. BTW if you read my posts, I own no mags. just a careful handloader.

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from Ed J wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Jim in MoHere is an aside to Harold's statement.My brother and a friend were hunting west of Roberts Mt, thats where my brother lives. He waas using a 308 Norma Mag, His friend was using a 7mm REM Mag. He shot a 4x4 and later in the day his friend shot a 4x5 and a cow on the off side. Do you supose the 7mm is twice as good 308 Norma? After all it got two elk with one shot. ;)Actually they were both embaraced because they never saw the cow till after the shot.

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from sarg wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I still like the word "overkill" I hunt whitetail at 50-75 yds, shoot a Rem.700 in .308. Don't need to go bigger. should really look at something smaller.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Harold,Did you load compressed handloads for your 7x57? Is it AI? Thats quite some velocity. Surely your friend downloaded his 7mag. Just wondering.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Del in Ks:Neighbor was not home last night but his wife told me that he went to Canada for the brown bear as she was mistaken and previously told me Alaska. Alaska is next year. He used to guide for bears in that state. Maybe I can see his bear tomorrow as tonight I have to attend my daughter's ballet recital (so things dads just have to do).Bernie Kuntz:I forget did you draw a Wyoming license for sheep? No luck here.Everyone else: Why don't we argue which is best .30-30 or .32 Win. Spl., revisit .270 vs .280, or discuss short fat mags rather than standard length versions? Just kidding since conversations are either worthless or redundant. All the aforementioned cartridges have advantages and all have shortcomings. I love my 7 mm Rem Mag and my 300 Win Mag but also have other rifles that are better in some ways. Pick what you like, shoot it often, use properly constructed bullets, attach the best scope you can afford if appropriate, and to hell with what anyone else thinks.

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from james t wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

i have a .300 weatherby mag, a .270 weatherby mag and a .338 browning mag and would never part with any of them. if recoil is too much for you try shooting them more and get to know the rifle. you can't shoot once or twice a year and expect recoil to just get easier. it isn't the caliber but the shooter. these are all very good calibers that i enjoy seeing come into my shop, which isn't very often.

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from Randy Free wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

You guys think what you want, but I have two sons that will argue with you on which gun kicks the most. They will take the 7mag any day over the .270 As to which gun is the best? Well thats like trying to choose between women. Its all in the eye of the beholder. I love the .270, grew up on it, but when I take to the field my 7mag will be there.

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from T.W. Davidson wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Greetings, Everyone . . .The blog comments about Magnums vs. standard caliber cartridges have been very interesting, as have some of the handloading ideas. Although I've handloaded probably 4000-5000 rounds in various calibers over the last couple of years, I admit it has never occurred to me to put tape over a loose primer pocket, seat a new primer in that pocket, load the case anew, then shoot it. Meaning no disrespect to those who have tried the scotch tape/loose primer pocket fixit idea, I admit I am not going to do so. I have a feeling it wouldn't work too well for me.When I first started handloading, I was very gung-ho, thought velocity was a god to worship, and that the major reloading manuals were too conservative and were written by desk-sitters and paper-pushers rather than by real shooters.But I learned. I blew primers. I froze bolts. I saw (and felt) things go BANG in bad ways. I had to replace a destroyed Model 700 action because of stupidity on my part and the significant probability of great carelessness or negligence on the part of a certain unnamed someone else. These days, I try very hard to avoid handloads that produce loose primer pockets, and if and when such a thing happens, I take very detailed notes about the handload and its characteristics and what went too far, then throw the brass away. And while I still find that some of the major reloading manuals are still very conservative, others yield higher performance but are, nonetheless, perfectly safe. For example, the published loads for the 257 Ackley Improved in the Accurate Smokeless Powder Loading Guide (Number Two edition, available online) are far hotter than those listed in the Nosler or Barnes or Hornady manuals, but are perfectly safe and shoot like a dream. And the published loads I found for the 257 AI in a circa-1970s Speer manual (using Norma 205 powder, which is no longer made)are as hot or hotter than the Accurate loads, yet are also perfectly safe in every modern bolt action rifle I've tested the loads in. The loads I've developed for my own various 257 AIs over the last couple of years are in the same vicinity and performance levels as the Accurate and old Speers loads. All shoot accurately, with high velocity, and no pressure-related issues at all.I am primarily a shooter, not a hunter. I spend a lot of time developing loads for my rifles and testing them for accuracy and velocity at my local range. I use a chronograph. I am very careful. I take detailed notes.I am sensitive to recoil and, although I am a very good shot, I have spent yearsteaching myself not to flinch. I am very much into the Zen of accurate shooting, the extreme self-imposed physical and mental discipline required to shoot very tiny groups in far-away targets.For those of you out there who share my sentiments that recoil and muzzle blast are unpleasant things to be avoided, I offer the following cartridges, all of which have very light to moderate recoil, minimal muzzle blast in barrels 22" or longer in length, are a joy to shoot, and can be handloaded to shoot very accurately.22-250--My 5'5" athletic 13-year-old daughter shoots handloads in her Browning A-bolt in this caliber with accuracy and confidence out to about 500 yards. Sixteen-ounce plastic coke bottles filled with water don't stand a chance. She doesn't notice the recoil, and can usually see the plastic bottles blow up through her scope.257 Roberts--My daughter's beautifully stocked absolutely gorgeous Winchester Model 70 in this caliber is, quite frankly, far too pretty to take out in the field and shoot. (We both feel this way.) But on the rare occasion we take her rifle to the range, it is easy to get 75-grain Hornady V-maxes out the muzzle around 3500 fps with minimal recoil (and sub-moa accuracy), and 100-grain spitzers out the barrel at around 3200 fps (and also sub-moa accuracy), none with enough recoil to bother us, even after 40+ rounds are sent downrange. The 257 Roberts is a great and yet oft-ignored cartridge, which is really a shame for the millions of shooters in America who don't like recoil or muzzle blast, and yet want and need a relatively high performance cartridge, which the 257 Roberts is when it's loaded properly. Ancient SAMMI standards for it need to be dumped and replaced with modern rifle higher pressure standards (as in, around 60,000 psi chamber pressure). And, according to Hodgdon's website in its data section, Hodgdon's new H-100V powder in 257 Roberts is pushing 100 grain bullets out the barrel at 3205 fps and 115-grain bullets out the barrel at 3049 fps--we are deep in the heart of 25-06 territory here, with less powder, little kick, and more shooting comfort-- which are terrific loads for almost all hoof-clad animals in this country. If only the major ammunition producers would offer 257 Roberts loads of this performance, the cartridge, and rifles chambered in it, would sell like hot pancakes and sausage at a Sunday Church breakfast.257 Ackley Improved--My customized Model 700 action in a HS-Precision stock and 24" barrel weighs about 8 1/2lbs with its Nikon 6-18x scope onboard. Handloads with 75-grain V-maxes are a joy to shoot all day long, even from the bench. Nosler 100-grain Ballistic Tips (safely out the barrel at 3400 fps with some old but pristine Norma 205 powder I found sitting lonely and abandoned on a back shelf in a very eclectic gunshop)kick a bit, and I wouldn't want to shoot them all day long, but test-firing 30-40 rounds in an afternoon session doesn't leave my head ringing nor my shoulder hurting. (And the rounds shoot sub-MOA.) My 257 AI is one of my two favorite rifles. It is very nearly a perfect rifle for me.7x57 Mauser and 7x57 Ackley--I use handloads shooting 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips, 130 grain Sierra MatchKings, and 140-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips or Combined Technology Ballistic Tips. I fireform 7x57 Mauser handloads into 7x57 Ackley cases, losing about 200-250 fps muzzle velocity from the "expected" velocity of the Mauser handloads when I do so, but I still get very respectable performance from the Mauser handloads and wonderful performance from my very carefully developed Ackley handloads.(For those who are curious, the Ackley 120-grain loads will go out my 24" barrel up to around 3300 fps using 49-50 grains of Varget. The Ackley 130-grain loads will go out the barrel around 3200 fps in fireformed Winchester or Remington brass, or up to around 3225-3250 fps in fireformed Hornady Light Magnum brass, using 51-52 grains of VVN 550. The 7x57 Ackley 140-grain loads will go out the barrel at 3100 fps or just slightly faster, using 55 grains of H-4350 and newly fireformed Hornady Light Magnum brass. I am still developing loads for this cartridge and have a long ways to go before I fully understand its performance capabilities.)My 7x57 Ackley is in a Remington 700 action, with a heavy sporter Leija 24" barrel, the action glass-bedded into a Hogue all weather stock, with a Shepherd scope onboard. The rifle weighes considerably more than I had planned when I first started putting all the pieces together--it's about 10 1/2lbs--but shoots like a dream and, regardless of how hot I load it, has never kicked me significantly at all. I think part of this, of course, is due to the weight of the rifle, but part of it is also due to the supreme efficiency of the cartridge. The 7x57 Mauser and its offspring, the 257 Roberts, 257 AI, and 7x57 AI, just don't need a whole lot of powder in their respective cartridges in order to produce excellent performance results.(I would love to see a credible modern-day scientific analysis of case design, powder burn, and powder burn/gas efficiency/bore ratios in various cases and calibers. I believe the 257 AI and 7x57 AI cartridges are likely the two most efficient sub-.30 caliber cartridges anywhere, followed closely by the 257 Roberts and 7x57 Mauser.)270 Winchester--I have a beaten-with-an-ugly-stick outhouse-nasty Savage Model 114 in cheap plastic factory issue stock and Nikon 3x9 ProStaff scope that, all together, doesn't seem to weigh even 8lbs. The rifle always feels very light. And while the rifle always shoots good handloads (and Hornady Light Magnum Loads) at MOA or even smaller, it kicks. It kicks hard. It hurts. Testing loads at the range requires that I wear a recoil-absorption pad on my shoulder. Sometimes I'll even put a washcloth beneath the absorption pad. I'll even cheat and stack sandbags around the rifle and try to weigh it down. (On the other hand, that rifle has turned me into an excellent off-hand shot at metal plate targets out to 300 yards, since shooting it off-hand is almost bearable compared to shooting it from the bench.) I've owned and fired several other 270s that didn't kick like this one does, hence my recommendation of the caliber if not a plastic-stocked Savage 114 in that caliber. The right rifle in that caliber is not unpleasant or uncomfortable to shoot at all.Good shooting, everyone.T.W. DavidsonTyler, TX

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from Jason N. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Besides wasn't the purpose of wildcatting to get more fps and energy out of existing load even if there wasn't significant gain.

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from Jason N. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I wonder how many of you out there bashing the magnums handload your .270s and 30-06 etc.. to max loads.

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from duff wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Bubba you mention a round that's one of my favorites...Savage 250-3000. That's my whitetail go-to guy. Mine's a '50's version in stainless with nice walnut stock and custom cheek and a Leupold 3x9. The reason to describe it is that my son took a deer this past fall with it. As mentioned in many of the other posts, there's a big gun phenom that really biases new gun sales, particularly the younger set. My son was under a lot of pressure to go 7mm or 300mag, just to have a bigger bulge so to speak. When he showed up with the 250, it's so nice a gun to shoot and look at, let alone performance (great range of bullet weights as well) that his most influential buddies actually started talking lower calibers. Go figure. My biggest fear is he'll talk me out of the gun...not!I shoot a custom .270, and my issued 7.62's, but not much and only for longer range game-elk, muley. In reading some of the guys notes on moving to fast and powerful for moose I'm a bit puzzled. Where I hunt moose, all over Canada (not Alaska yet) the cover is heavy and the shots are short. I've always used a Savage 99 in .358 Winchester and a Winchester 71 in .348 Winchester for moose and bear. The fun of the 71 is getting hit in the face with cartridges due to the top eject. Good ol' boys that still work great.Thanks.

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from Lance wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I can't believe you guys talking about kick like this. My 12ga. with a 2 3/4 slug, out kicks my 7 Rem. Mag. any day of the week. The 7 is 9 1/2 pounds with the scope, but the 12ga. is about 7 pounds.

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from Zermoid wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Hehe, you mentioned Groundhogs, several years ago I had a Winchester 94 in 30-30 Win that I used for poping groundhogs around the house (we lived in the middle of several acres of corn and soybean fields) using 110 gr Speer Varminter bullets. Don't know why but that gun wouldn't shoot 150 or heavier bullets (Tried several as well as several powders, primers etc) but those 110's would shoot 1 ragged hole benched or a cloverleaf shooting offhand at 100yds assuming I did my part right.The local farmer who owned the fields never had much of a groundhog problem within 200 yds of my place.

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from Dave Petzal wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

To Beekeeper: You will never offend me by mentioning Jim Carmichel on this blog; the man has been like a father to me. Anyway, since 1985 I've kept records of everything I've chronographed, and filled up an entire steno pad plus part of another. I call them "The Books of Sorrow."

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from wolfjaw wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I use a Winchester Model 70 in .270 caliber for deer and deer size critters; a .204 Ruger for 'chucks....and assorted calibers and gauges in between for giggles and snickers as my mood dictates. Someday (soon I hope) I will retire and satisfy a hankering for moose meat. Methinks a 150 grain .270 bullet for Moose is not the best tool for the job and I am leaning toward acquiring a rifle in either .350 Rem Mag or a .338 Federal. Those calibers can get the job done, but I have no experience with either. I'm not a long range assassin and would rather pass on shoulder busting recoil. Opinions???

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Thos. Fowler,You make a good point.There is a gentleman in my home town that is about 5'6" or so and would probably have to jump up and down on a scale to make it go past 150 lbs! Ronnie shoots a M77 Ruger in .458 Win Mag! BUT, he's a handloader and loads it down to about an above average .45-70 Gov't!If you hand load and don't like recoil, you can shoot a heavier caliber loaded down for white tail, and load up for larger game such as elk and moose!Yes, the massive case capacity magnums have some advantages, but I'll still stick by my ol' .270!Bubba

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from Thos. Fowler wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

What a discussion this idea generates...everywhere. It is not just about recoil, but about 'enough'...and what constitutes that? This extends to other facets of our lives, like SUV's and the size of our...lawnmowers.One of the charms few seem to remember is the blessing of the round ball muzzle-loader in the deer woods. Modern day versions have changed the equation, so that recoil comes back into the picture.Then, there is the joy and flexibility of reloading. My Dad's wildcat 7mmMag succumbed to the Remington version, and I handloaded nice, light loads for shooting offhand in local fun competitions. Currently, it is sighted in for Elk with 175 gr. Sierras. It is a custom rifle...it fits...it is extremely versatile. Groundhogs and many deer have fallen to it, and it began life as a WWI Mauser.Dave Petzal is the King of the Campfire discussions. Thanks, Dave. Enjoyed it.Tom Fowler

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

My first bolt gun was a 7MM Rem mag that I purchased because it was a cheaply priced(Savage)rifle I bought while in active military service. Young family, and low wages, caused me to be practicle and this gun got the job done!I started hand loading for it back then, as well, and I felt that helped me become a better shooter. Recoil is relative to the person receiving it, while I don't own that rifle any more, I do own "standard" rifle rounds that when loaded to "similar" speeds of the 7MM Remington has similar recoil! So, I guess what I am saying is if you want better preformance, man up, take some recoil and buy a magnum.ps-I also have a .270 Win, love the gun, but if I can load a 7MM bullet in a 160 grain wt, having better ballistics then a .270 bullet, I would prefer to carry that 7MM round on say a mixed deer/black bear/or moose hunt then the .270.

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from JDD wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

The most accurate gun in my safe is a Remington 7 mag. It is tricked out by Shilen and wears a 4X12X50 Swarovski AV with Talley mounts and a custom stock. I don't load it to max and the 140's are clocking 3000 fps. Yea I know the 270 will do the same thing and I own one but the 7 mag shoots like a house on fire. The 270 will shoot an honest 1" group sometime's but not always. The 7 mag will shoot 3/8" groups all day as long as I do my part. I don't own a 300 win mag but I do have a 338-06 and it is the cats meow for elk and BIG Texas hogs. My fun guns consist of a Cooper Western Classic in 25-06, an Ackley 280 I ordered from Nosler and a Weatherby XII long rifle. No I am not a fat cat, I just simply rat hole every penny I can even if it takes 3 or 4 years saving up to buy what I want.A while back Dave said he sold his 280 Ackley because it keep blowing primers. I had the same problem with Federal primers. I changed to CCI primers and use Nosler brass, backed off my load a tad and problem went away. I can get 3150 fps with 140 grain Nosler BT's real easy with the 280 Ackley. That is more than enough to do what I want, in fact 3150 fps seems to be a magic number with the 25-06 and the 280 Ackley (and little bit with the 270 using 110 grain bullets).A friend of mine told how he solved his problem with loose primer pockets. He tapes scotch tape over the primer pocket before seating the primer. He said it also increased accuracy. Not sure how it increased accuracy but I tried it with my 308 and it works. Another friend that really lives on the edge with his 270 loads gave me some brass with loose pockets. I am going to try using scotch tape with my 270 and see how that goes. Before you say I may be creating hotter primer fire and increasing pressure, I may be, but I don't hot rod my reloads the way he does.

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from First trog wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I own a .300 win mag and a .270 win. and don't feel that either one kicks the poo out of me. I've killed many deer with my .270 and love it's performance. Most were shot at less than 100 yds. The longest approx.400 yds. I bought the .300 to hunt elk and moose to date I've only been on one elk hunt and still have my tag. I've shot two deer with the .300 mag. One at approx. 100 yds., heart shot,one at approx. 25 yds. neck shot. The meat was not blown apart I think the .270 does more damage to meat. Now that my son hunts with me he uses the .300 it fits him better and he is about 4 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier. He thinks the .270 kicks harder. Point being it's personal choice both very good rounds and round for round no punishing recoil or noticable muzzle blast.

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Black Rifle Addict:I don't have a problem with the 7mm Rem Mag, or the .300 Win Mag. Except, I don't like the recoil and my .270 Win will hand load to near 7mm Rem Mag performance with less powder and recoil. Some folks can handle recoil, I just happen to be one of those "can't" folks! Had an old gunsmith tell me once, the only reason they built 3" shotguns was so the Cajuns in south Louisiana could hear racket and feel pain when they pulled the trigger! (I shoot 2 3/4", even on turkey!)Del in KS:I can't think of a round that was developed off the .30-'06 case that isn't a jim dandy performer and pleasant to shoot!A couple more rounds we forgot: the .300 Savage and the .250 Savage, or .250-3000 as it was originally called. Both sweet rounds and pleasant to shoot!Jack Ryan:Yep, I'll spout rhetoric all day long about my .270 Win and how I can hand load it to near 7mm Rem Mag factory specs. But, (there's that but {butt!?} again!) if Joe Bob wants to perforate his deer with a .460 Wby necked down to shoot phonograph needles, sobeit! It's his deer, his venison, his shoulder! I want a .277 inch entry wound. Less damage, less recoil, but the deer ain't any "less" dead!Bubba

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from Jack Ryan wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I own a 30-06. I remember reading some where it's the "yard stick" all other caliburs are measured by and looking through a few reloading manuals and this column of comments I tend to agree. Seems it would kill about any thing that walks.Still I just don't get all this "I'll never...", the hissing, brandishing cross's, and tossing of holy water at various cartridges just because they happen to include the word "magnum".The first thing any rifle/cartridge combo has to accomplish is to make a hole where you point it. Once that's accomplished, any time you can do it faster, bigger, or harder and still put the hole where you want it then how could it possibly not be better?Is it something in the lead that makes hunters get all puffed up and start spouting rhetoric and proclimations that just don't make any sense? Faster, harder, bigger all equal making that hole farther away just as big as slower, lighter, smaller makes it up closer. Any time you push something one way it pushes back with an equal force. It's just physics regardless of the eloquent romaticisms of the writer and the only question is do you want faster, bigger, harder, and further away bad enough to put up with the "push back" the cartridge is going to give you. It doesn't make you a hero to take a pounding killing a white tail deer 70 yards away nor does it make you a fool if you'd rather whack one from a nice dry hill side than belly crawl through the mud trying to sneak with in range with a hundred year old cartridge in a lever action.One shot, one kill, and you can't do better than that. Use the tool giving you the best chance of getting the job done. The game you pursue desearves nothing less.

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Ishawooa,I'll bet your neighbor got his bear either on the Alaskan Peninsula or Kodiak Island If it squares 10 ft or more.

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Robert Sprague,In '73 I bought my first bolt gun a M700 Rem in 7mm rem mag. It had the hideous impressed checkering and looked worse than Hillary's buns. The very first load tried out of the Speer manual was 115 gr Speer HP bullet with IMR4350 powder. An Army gunsmith did a trigger job on it and it put 5 into one hole the first time I shot it. It would outshoot his Rem 40XB. I sold the gun to a guy that looked at the groups and had to have it. He gave me $30 more (1974 dollars) than I paid for it. Little did I know that after all these years and many guns there has never been another that would shoot like that one.Bubba,You left out my all time favorite the 25-06. It has light recoil and shoots 100gr Barnes XXX bullets an honest 3300 fps. It's also deadly as 10,000 volts.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

By the way my neighbor got back from Alaska last night with his Brown bear. His wife told me that it is huge but she does not know what it squared yet. I am heading over to look at it and will report back. I figure it is at least B & C since that is all he will shoot. I on the other hand, well that's another story.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Without reading any posts but Dave's I will add my biased and no doubt misguided opinion. I agree concerning the 7mm Rem (I have visited the ranch where Mike Walker and Les Bowman developed loads for the .284 RCBS or .284 Bowman, or .284 Rem Mag or as it was finally marketed the 7 mm Rem Mag and routinely hunt in the mountains where it was baptized, not that this means a damn thing, just thought I would throw it in). As some of you might remember I presently possess or have owned a considerable number of rifles in many calibers and cases. All were used for their intended purpose, some a lot. I now find myself shooting the 7 mm-08 for deer and antelope. The .338 Win Mag has never failed me on elk or moose. I have been trying to kill a black bear with it but for years never see the bear when I have the .338 with me. Today my best foxtrotter gelding somehow got into the fence wire for the first time in his 15 years so unless I take my second rate horses the hunt is off for the weekend. The vet bill will equal a Weatherby in value I am figuring. Anyway I recently added one more rifle that does meet the standards of outperforming a 7 mm anything and that is my new custom 7 mm x 404. 160 gr. Berger VLD at 3420. Long and heavy but that is the horse's problem not mine to any great extent. I can hit a 18 inch circle consistently at 1000 yards. And yes in my part of Wyoming sometimes you either shoot at 500 to 1000 yards or go home and boil your tag. Actually around here 500 yard shots are commonplace. Folks make the kill using '06's and .270's in front of my eyes at that range. Consequently I once had a friend drop a decent mulie at about 525 and we watched its clone walk out of the woods to closely examine its fallen brother. I shot it with a 7 mm Rem and 160 Nosler. It dropped but no better than the .270 hit buck. They were less than 10 yards apart. Love or hate the 7 mm x 404 (near clone of 7 mm Rem Ultra) it is an outstanding performer so far. Give me a .22-.250, a .270 Win., a .338 Win., and a .458 Lott and I am happy. Then why do I have all these other rifles? Some are loaners, some are pretty, some are unique, but mostly they are wants and not needs. Fortunately I have been financially able to acquire them although my fortunes in other areas of life have turned out to be less than I had hoped for...

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from Bernie Kuntz wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

The discussion was supposed to be about magnums that are really, what shall we say, not what they should be? We are not discussing lesser cartridges, which I whole-heartly agree are more than ample for 90 percent of big game hunting.Dave's point, I believe, is that the 7mm Rem. Mag. and the .300 Win. Mag. didn't accomplish enough ballistically to justify their existence. That is why I own a 7mm Weatherby Magnum and a .300 Weatherby Magnum. I believe both cartridges exemplify the 7mm caliber and the .300 calibers. Any more powder capacity in either cartridge is extreme and approaches insanity.

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from brian wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I own a 7 mag, and a couple of 7mm mausers. I really enjoy the mausers, I dread the magnum. I looking foward to trading the mag.

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from Thomas wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Is there any wonder why the .22LR and the .30/06 is in almost every hunting arsenal. Sure you can have any rifle and caliber you wish or chose. But most people have one or both. Unfortunitly I have more .22's then I can shoot in an afternoon.Tom the Troll

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from Black Rifle Addict wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Dave...why are you beating up on my beloved 700 Rem mag?(and my son's 300Win mag?)Even if one can achieve only limited ballistic improvement to a bullet, it's not paper ballistics that keep a caliber/round alive over the years;It's there preformance in the field that counts.These two rounds have proven themselves over the years, and if a hunter is confident with a rifle why must we berate their records on this blog?Anyone agree with me out there in blog land?

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

BTWI bought my nephew a NEF Handi-rifle blued/synthetic. After the rifle arrived and I picked it up, it dawned on me the recoil might be a bit much because of the light weight!After screwing an older Weaver K4 I had stuck back for such emergencies, off we went to the range for a 25 yard session.Suprisingly, the recoil was about like my No. 1! Not bad at all!Bubbap.s. - It's a real tack driver after an old 'smithing buddy dressed the crown down a bit! It had a little booger in it that confounded the boy and ME for several rounds before I thought to check it!

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from Bubba wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Thank you Dave P.!!!More than once on this blog I have touted the .270 Win. I spent some time working in a gun shop and have tripped the sear on more than one caliber. The only gun I ever had truly "hurt" me, was an M77 Ruger in .338 Win Mag. It belonged to an older fella we called "Big Daddy" because of his knowledge of firearms and his proficiency with them! He had tricked out this bazooka and developed some hand loads for an upcoming Colorado elk hunt! They chided me for days for not being able to "take" the recoil! I even shot a .458 Win Mag M77 that was unbelievably comfortable!I shoot .270 Win in a bolt gun and a Ruger No. 1! Both have mild recoil with the Ruger's weight cutting it's recoil just a bit more! Both very accurate and very reliable.The biggest difference in the two? The chambers! I can sit in the house and peck out loads with my old Lee Loader and they function in my bolt gun just fine. The No. 1 lacks about 1/8th inch swallowing the round, making it impossible to close the action. To load for the No. 1, I must go to the bench!My load is 46.5 grs of IMR 4895, std Win large rifle primer and a 130 gr Sierra BTSP for a round that is very close to a factory round.If I ever slip the sear on a deer and he doesn't go down, I know it was me! NOT the gun or the load!Very nice rounds that will do an excellent job on deer without recoil:7x57.270 Win.30-'06.30-30.308 Win7mm-08.257 Rbts.35 RemThere are lots more, these are just a few that come readily to mind!Bubba

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from NH Philosopher wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I enjoy shooting my 300 win mag - particularly when out for Elk and long 250+ meter shots at muleys and whitetails.I know it's more than I need - but its a versatile weapon that I can use in various hunting situations. Granted me 30.06 is also versatile, but for somereason I dig the 300 win mag over most of the riles I own - including:30-30.27030.06.243Has nothing to do with being Macho or any other non-sensical pyschographic mumbo jumbo. I am partial to the rifle's feel, it's pinpoint accuracy and the way it drives 165 grain hornady SST boattails. the rifle's a tack driver.

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from Beekeeper wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Jim Carmichael (Sorry Dave) said never chrono your favorite hunting load. He was right. A buddy paid more than good money for a .300 WSM. He came over extolling all kinds of borscht about velocity gains and short actions, etc...Another friend of mine is lucky enough to own a 600 yd. range. We took his new toy over and the range owner just happend to be using his chrono while ringing out a new rife. We shot the .300 WSM with factory ammo over the screens. Surprise, it fell well short of the claims. We shot my 30/06 with my mutt and jeff middle of chart handloads. Same barrel length, my '06 averaged only 80 fps slower than his short mag. My buddy almost cried. By the way, the short, light little rifle is beast off the bench... My '06 is push over!Also, if you need something a little bigger. Don't sell the 338-06 short. A 200 grain bullet at 2700 plus will do a lot. Recoil is about that of a full house 180 grain load in the '06.

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from KJ wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Where I hunt the action is pretty close-up; a long shot is about 80 yards, and in some places the timber is so thick you can't see a deer 30 yards away. My 30-30 has always been perfect for that kind of hunting. I have a .30-06 but have never needed its reach. Still, I know lots of guys that hunt with 7mm and .300 mags. I think it has something to do with their sense of what "macho" is. Somehow they equate getting busted in the face with a rifle stock with manly virility. I'm not sure that's "thinking with the wrong head," but it isn't smart.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I get great service against deer with my .243 Winchester pushing a 100 grain bullet. I'd up gun to .30-06 for moose, or elk but otherwise don't need anything more powerful than the .243. I've never been strongly tempted to hunt bear. I see the pix and think "Do people really eat that thing?"

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from Jim wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I have 2 7mm Rem Mags, one my dad bought for an elk hunt in 1990 (made in early 70's) and one I got for xmas 3 years ago when cabelas was selling the 2003 shot show special 700 for $400. I haven't even shot my new one. I'm having to much fun and success with my ABolt 7mm/08 and .243 WSSM. The 7Mag is for any open country hunt and any time I might hunt bigger game. Dont think I will use it for a while. With ammo becoming more and more expensive. Look for people to quit feeding their beasts and taking out the old .30-30's and .30-06's which always have ammo for relatively low prices.

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from Mark-1 wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I’ve used both the 7mm Mag and 300 Mag. There’s nothing wrong with either cartridge, although I think the neck on the 300 Mag is short.I’ve had long and thick experience with 7mm bullets in 7 x 57, 280, and 7mm Mag. If there is any difference in killing power or accuracy between any of these cartridges in comparable rifles out the 300-yrad range, I couldn’t see it.BTW I think all the major loading companies load the 7mm Mag to the max. I could never handload comparable bullet weights that rocked like the factory loads.

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from CoRoMo wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I can't imagine ever needing to flush my cash down on a magnum rifle. I'll never own one.My .270 had dropped all the elk I've crosshaired with one shot. If I ever draw that moose tag, I'll use the .30/06 and be done with it.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Dr. R,Who knows because of your size the mag may have been jolting you more than the boy. About eight years ago I was at the range and next to me was Fred Miller off. tackle of Rams (now with Titans I think). We both were shooting '06s but because of his size he was taking quite a jolt (his body not giving) while my much smaller body gave with the punch.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I've never understood the fascination with the newer, faster, better cartridges. Pretty much all of my guns are chambered for something that has 100 years of experience to back it up. 7X57 is an excellent game stopper with extremely mild recoil as is the 30-30. I'm a fairly large man or at least not small and the 30-06 is about as much gun as I can shoot comfortably, and it works on everything. It is my favorite but probably because it was my father's and it's a shooter... I did experiment with a .257 Wby. Mag. and was not impressed with it's knock down power at ranges typical of rural Tennessee. Of course the average deer is killed at 17 yards so obviously that was not what Roy had in mind for this particular cartridge.Last year I took my daughter's 16 year old boyfriend out because he had never killed a deer. His father is a disabled cop and so they hunt ducks from a blind mainly. He brought along a Ruger 7mm Mag and missed his first doe at less than 50 yards... I had shot this gun three times and put up about an inch group at 100 yards and so I knew it was sighted in but it hurt me and I outweigh the boy by 80 pounds. I can't imagine what it feels like to him. Anyway he did drop the second doe that meandered his way but if I could just convince him that all that pain is not necessary he would hunt more and better. I blame it on the manufacturers who are unwittingly running kids away from the shooting sports with their Ultra Mags and 3 1/2" shotgun shells...

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from dartwick wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I think people often discount the importance of power more than they should.Not every shot is perfect, and a more damaging bullet does help compensate for an less than idea hit.But of course accuracy matters more than power. So never trade But accuracy for damage.If you can expand a fairly large bullet and go nearly through your prey then you arent going to be much better off with a bigger gun.This is why on the most common big game - deer, you gain little by going beyond a .270 or .308(unless you find the need to shoot long range.)But just as a .270 gives you bigger "quick kill" zone than a .243 on a deer, a .300 gives you a bigger zone on an Elk.If youre the ideal restrained hunter who aways waits for the good shot and doesnt miss then you lose little by sticking with a small gun.If youre normal then power helps.The ideal gun is one you wont flinch from but can shoot an expanded bullet through the torso of your target. That rarely exists though.

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from Jason N. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

It still boils down to bullet placement,how much you practice and how comfortable you are to your rifle.Rifle calibers get blamed for poor performance but alot of hunters dont match bullet type to what game they are shooting. Example a controlled expansion bullet for pronghorns. Then complained that it didnt knock the buck off its feet.

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from Robert W. Sprague wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Dave, I need to stick up for my favorite cartridge/rifle combo, even when it defies logic. I have an early 7 mag model 700, manufactured with a stainless steel barrel with a sickly looking bluing job. The thing is as ugly as Mrs. Clinton in good light. I blundered on a load of 63.5 of IMR 4831 behind a 140gr ballistic tip. It comes out at 3000 on my chronograph, and shoots into 5/8" on a bad day, and .25 on a good day. I have killed everything from ground squirrels to 350lb wild pigs, with too many coyotes and deer in between to count. If it kicks any more than a 30-06, I can't tell, and since the load is somewhat attenuated, the cases can be reloaded multiple times with very little streching. I agree the animals don't know if that bullet came from 7mag or a 7-08. I have talked to alot of people who have similar experiences with a Rem 700 in 7 mag. Anybody else have a similar story?

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from SD Bob wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Remember several topics ago when Dave threw us for a loop by going .338 win mag on us after touting the enjoyment of lesser rounds for so long? It appears his senior moment is over and the short actions are making a comeback. Lets us not forget though that if it is not a $700 model 70 tricked out to cost 12 grand, the bullets will inevitably bounce right off the side of any animal. The only solution for those who don't have $12,700 is to buy a belted magnum for $600 so it can penetrate the shield of crapulence every animal has!

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from Harold wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Well, since Americans like numbers, here's some numbers:A friend and I were hunting elk here in WY a few years back. He was armed with his 7mm magnum, firing a 160 gr. Nosler partition at just over 2900 fps. I was armed with my 7X57, shooting a 140 gr. Nosler partition at just over 2900 fps. We both killer bulls. Mine was a little larger and died with one shot. His took several rounds to dispatch. Comparing the bullet holes from both cartridges, they were pretty much identical.Now tell me, what advantage do you get with that extra 20 gr. of copper and lead?

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I've wondered about the usefulness of the .30/378 Weatherby. Sure it'll scrap dust off a chalkline at 500yds but, given its velocity what would happen if an elk passed by at 30yds? Would the bullet hold together? If it did, would expansion be so great that penetration would be limited?

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from Andrew wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

A 270 is perfect for deer. Many people buy a bigger gun thinking if I ever hunt bear in Alaska I'll need the extra power and they end up with way too much kick for 99% of their hunting. Buy the right tool for the hunting you do most often and you can't go wrong. If you hunt different game a 30/06 a great versatile choice. For my hunting magnums are a waste of money and meat.

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from JP wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

I have noticed my grouping is much tighter with the non-mags ie:.270,.280,.30/06 than the mags. The "flinch" factor plays a part and its just not as enjoyable to shoot. I found myself loading down the magnum for deer and it equaled out to an .30/06 load and if I want to hunt Elk or other larger game, loading it up. Just a nice option with the .300 Mag. You can load an .30/06 up but I found I liked the bigger .300 Mag loads better.

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from jstreet wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

There will always be the "bigger is better" group of folks that gun/ammo makers love.They are the group that sells perfectly good firearms (usually at a loss) to buy a new wondergun that kicks their teeth loose and they end up selling it (usually @ a loss) to purchase either the next new wondergun (if they haven't learned their lesson) or buy what they had to begin with.And the cycle continues......Jim

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Thats what I always thought, extremely long distance.The only way I'd go bigger than my '06 is for a 338 for bigger game.

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from Dennis L. Crabtrey II wrote 5 years 46 weeks ago

Finally,Someone who agrees with me. You don't need a magnum cartridge for the majority of shooting, only for those VERY rare occasions where a long shot is required and unavoidable.

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