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March 03, 2008

The Utah Exception

By David E. Petzal and Phil Bourjaily

Last summer I made the mistake of returning to my alma mater, from which I (barely) graduated in 1963 when it was all male and one-half its present enrollment. When I was a student I always had a couple of guns in my room, and one of our fraternities was rumored (probably correctly) to have 70. No one cared. We had no security force, and there was not a locked door anywhere on campus. At the end of each semester, I would take textbooks that had annoyed me and give them a dose of 00 buckshot in the quarry above the campus.

Now, everything is locked, there are enough campus cops to subdue Bagdhad, and scattered around the campus are blue poles with phones in them, and signs that say: "If in trouble, call." I wonder what would happen if I tried my book-shooting antics now.

Massacres are becoming as much a part of campus life as projectile vomiting and political correctness. This is because any murderous geek who wants to go out with a flourish can be assured of two things about colleges: No one there will be armed except the campus police, and in the time it takes them to arrive, he can complete his slaughter and put the gun to his own head. And then, when the smoke clears, the media will descend, giving him his 15 minutes of fame, rolling around in the sorrow and suffering like a dog digging its shoulder into a dungheap.

Public universities in Utah permit students who have licenses to carry to bring handguns on campus. So far, there have been no shootings in Utah. This is all very un-PC, unenlightened, Red State, redneck, and all that, but I think it will make Utah's classrooms less attractive to potential psychopaths than those of the other 49 states.

We shall see.

Comments (177)

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 4 weeks ago

Sarg: Wal-mart has the mfgers make the cheapest gun they can. In fact they dictate the price. Remington told me that the ADL is yet made, but only for Wal-mart, I;ve seen the gun and it sure is not the ADL of a few years back. The new 715 and 770 Rem.has brought out, lookes like a tin can was used for material.The 715 and 770 is just the sorry A---- 710 with black stock and they fiddled with the detachable Magazine so you could put in or take out,the old one was almost impossible to do so, plus the bbl was fussed to the action. thats the only difference,plus the metal to syn stock fits like size 12 boot when you wear and size 8. I;ve used Remingon products for 40 ys or more and they have always made good mdse. Glad I got the Rem's 700's I own . The only 2 firearms they (Rem) now makes that look worth a dime is the BDL and CDL, plus the price is near$8- 900.00. I do believe this MArlin will make in-rows to Rems. sales. Maybe that's what they need, a Co who makes a quality gun such as Savage. Hey, I got My New Mexico Disability permit. Now ready to go if draw any of the 4 states I applied. But I still want the KY tag.If prics continue to rise, KY may be only stae I can afford to hunt in now, but the draw will difficult. O well, will hunt someplace if able, if in my back 40 for w-tails.I just enjoy being out side in the wide open spaces, the best make you feel good pill available today. TAke care, chat again.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 4 weeks ago

RockyMtnHunter, got your E-mail about the rifle, Got a Rem. catalog in mail, sure has some nice looking rifles in it, Not what's at Wal-mart...

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 4 weeks ago

As for a Carry permit. Any time you buy a gun froma dealer, the Law will find out about it. So no need o worry about Uncle Sam not knowing you got a CC permit. Buy one, then no problems. A unloaded firearm or locket up in dash is useless if needed. Who has time to unlock the dash or load a gun if needed. All I got to do is pull my Kel-tec out and fire if necessary. The 2nd Adm. does give us the right to own a firearm, but it don;t give you the right to carry in plain view. Most of the cops will take your A-- to jail if they stop you and find a gun loaded in your vehicle.Try hiring a Lawyer for 90 bucks to get you lousy A-- out of jail.More like 500 to lK, then court appearance, etc. Just get the CC permit and don;t have to worry then.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 4 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter: Know the place well, I was there in 2006. Spent 2 nights in town and ate at the Hotel. Loved the place. I had hunted Lopes in WY and drove to Missoula, Mt sigh-seeing and gtime to kill prior to opening season in MT. Beatiful country.Plan to go to MT this fall, if I draw.(think I will as they got l2.400 NR tags and the economy poor). AS a rule I carry 40 rounds of Scirocco l80 gr for the Rem CDL 06 and if Lope hunting carry 20 rounds and thencarry one box for the handgun(50 rounds) for the 44-40. So far, only use one round to dble check 0 and one round to kill my game. Lucky shots I suppose,but do pratice a lot prior and try to have good equiptment for my use.Good glass and weapon. So far, not needed bt one shot for all the game I;ve killed in l2 yrs out west. But now age taking it's affect may not be as good a shot as in past, so more pratice than normal this fall.Do you live in West Va? Got many friends there, we meet at Myrtle Beach,S.C. each summer for 2 weeks. As for ammo, I;ve not found or shot any ammo that performed as well for me as the Scirocco's. The deer i killed last year was at 345 yds quartering to left, one shot and he was down. Bullet entered his last rib on left side about 4-5" belw back bone and exited his right shoulder. large opening and vitals all mussy. Can;t beat that kind of performance, or I can;t. I still believe the Core-lokt's areas good as you can use out to 200 yds, its that extra 1-200 yds that the Scricco;s come into play out west on those sometimes long shots.I learned on my first trip out a rangefinder was a MUST for distance. Those rolling plains and hills and valleys will sure fool your eyes. Being disabled/handicapped, I must make my first shot count, as cannot track a wounded animal in that country. So far has not been necessary, hopefully will continue to shot as well as in past. I do use a Stoney Point Bi-pod for a rest or when not hunting as a cane. Gettin all excied about this fall's trip, ready to go now. But do want to get the New MArlin in 270 before I go, as never shot a 270 and do want to try on Deerafter i kill my Elk. I want the 06 in l80 gr;s untill I kill the Elk then switch to the new Marlin. Will be first time I ever boght a gun sight unseen. Shooting Times had a great article in last months Issue and my Dealer has seen one and he says i will be pleased. I need a Haul about gun for 4 wheeler /pickup here at home. Just another excuse to buy anther gun. Shot-um-straight and often.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 4 weeks ago

I had no problem getting my CC Permit. Took the class and then to Sheriff's office, paid the 90 bucks and in 2 weeks got the permit. Been stopped several times due to tags or inspection stickes expired,and was glad I had the permit. I now travel with a firearm loaded but not chamberd in teh rev. but teh Kel-tec is loaded fully and teh trigger controls the action. So much crime now, I don;t feel comfortable without a firearm.When I stay in a Hotel, my gun is under my Pillow, when got my pants on , got a gun.Kinda makes me feel more confortable knowing I can at least protect myself and wife. When I go west, a gun goes wher-ever I go, PERIOD. Yep, the locals know who has a permit, but thats better than a dopped up thug robber. With the handgun, I can at least level the playing field a tad. Living down south does not excuse you from a gun in your dash or pocket without a CC permit, so rather than pay a Attorney a lot of $ to bail me out, I just spend the $90.00 ever 5 yrs and feel safe. Plus, when I pratice my shooting prior to hunting the Rockies, I pratice with my handguns while the bbl cools on the hunting rifles. So can at least hit a barn door at 25 paces or closer. I ride my 4 wheeler and tractor on the farm, several miles off main drag, and never know who I may encounter trespassing on my property. A handgun/rifle kinda gets their attention and as a rule they stay away therafter. Rather be safe than sorry. Guys, pay the fee, get the permit, then no worries if legal or etc. Some out of state(western) laws permit a carry concealed, but darn few. I bought a rifle in 98 out west, was traveling in my Motor Home, the gun shop, called the local Sheriff to walk with me to the MH to make sure it was stored inside and un-loaded. When I returned home, called the ATF and he said the dealer was a smart A--so was the Sheriff, when he saw I was 2500 miles from home.I immediately got my CC permit. Now no problems when buying a gun out of state. Could be that the LAw don;t like my looks, at 5'8" wt of l28 lbs, I'm, a real threat to a 6' 200 lb cop????????. Plus some Cops just want to show their authority, when they attach that badge and the 9,mm on, they become King-Kong. Or Worse. However, most are understanding, but always that wise Ass. The Old Gunslinger and his CC gun.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

If you're going to legally buy a handgun, there is so much paperwork involved, any law enforcement agency will know that you have it. Why not get the permit? Also, if some cop had it out for you, he could probably pull you over, initiate a search on some type of reason, find your piece, then your busted. Get the permit.YooperJack

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

We are having our office remodeled and adding a lab. One of the carpenters that we know carries cancelled all the time, and we don’t have no problem with that. Day before yesterday, he showed me his new poodle shooter 9mm auto. His boss that is one of our best friends, go’s to our church and just happens to be his father in law chuckled and said, Clay show him what you carry. I whipped out my Springfield 45XD from nowhere loaded with 230 grain Black Talons, turned around pointing it in a safe direction dropped the 13 round mag and chambered round the handed it to him. Clay, where do you carry that cannon!Yes, in our office, we do allow CWP on our grounds. We don’t advertise that one of us does carry concealed.A robber with a shotgun stormed into a Sheriff’s Posse Captains Business to rob it unknowing that there was a Posse meeting in progress in the back room. The Captains 45 ACP made short work of him! This reminds me of robbers going into a Dunkens donut shop to rob it. Here’s your sign!

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

SargWe have it the same here in New Hampshire; Open carry is OK no permit needed BUT getting into a vehicle with a holstered sidearm is called concealed by lots of the boys in blue. Conservation officer clued me in on that one a few years back. Said "Get your permit then you have nothing to worry about!" So far I haven't gone up to get it, only carry when I hunt and unload the revolver before I get into my truck but I am seriously thinking about getting the card now. If we had a class like you all do I sure would go for it, that way if an incident did happen and I followed what was taught in the class I have another layer of defense.SA

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Rocky Mtn Hunter:There are limitations concerning outdoor dogs. This happened to an old friend of mine in Mississippi not once but twice. The first time his two 100 plus pound German Shepards did not meet him at the gate in the fence which surrounds his 100 acres he knew something was wrong. These dogs were such that only he could touch or control them. Unfortunately a .22 LR in the head of each animal allowed the thieves to enter Charlie's home in his absence. A Liberty safe saved the day so far as his guns were concerned although the criminals did try to pry it open. About 8 years later he had a beautiful pair of well trained Rottweilers. Same thing happened again. Nowadays Charlie keeps one Rott in the house and hopes for the best when he is not at home. At least he is alerted if someone tries to enter the dwelling. Charlie is now 93 and not high tech oriented so electronic surveilance and security devices are not an option for him and his wife. By the way he deer hunted until he was 91 and managed to kill a couple bucks and a few does each year. He mainly quit because his wife's vision started failing her. He is one of the greatest hunters and gentlemen that you could ever meet and know.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Where live if you have handgun gun,you better have it visible if stopped by the law.You can walk down main street with a gun visible, but put it in your pocket and big trouble. I carried a handgun fr 40+ years and no permit, but got to point I was afraid not togeta Carry Permit.Now I don;t have to worry and can keep the litte Kel-tec or Rossie 7 shot 22LR or the big gun in a shoulder holster. Most of us southrn guys who own a pckup have carried a long gun on a window rack or behind the seat which is ok unless one in the chamber.I just did not want the hassell and looker-ons when I carried a gun on my side. AS stated earlie not a trouble maker, and do;tlook for it, but I want to be prepared in case I'm a target for a robbery.Too old to run and too old to fight the buggers.With the gun in my pocket I feel kinda level the playing field.Just too may killings near me and one never knows now whom to trust My Outdoor dog died last year and I;m looking for a replacement as soon as can find another German Sheppard.With one of them around, I feel the home is safe day and night.An especally when I;m gone hunting.Take care guys, shot-um-straight and often. Burn up some powder.The Old Southern Gunslinger

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from sarg wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

You guys are talking about carring conceiled, when I carry i carry in open, In Ky. it is not conceiled in glove box as long as it is locked or unloaded...

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

sarg,Why pay a lawyer a couple grand or more to explain your 'rights' to a judge? I'm a hard headed German and I'm smart enough to know not to fight this fight.Choose your battles friend.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Sarge:Its been a long time ago but I remember debates on whether to get the permit or not. It seems to me, if you had a pistol in your glovebox, or otherwise concealed, and you were pulled over, and the police had some reason to search, if found, you would be guilty of a felony.As such, you would need a screw loose not to get one. A felony conviction would mess up your life in ways we can't imagine. I want to buy a pistol. If I do, I'll certainly get the concealed carry permit.YooperJack

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from sarg wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

That's the main reason I don't get the permit, Dr.Ralph.... I already have the right to carry, why pay to do so.. you pay to do it, they can stop it... I don,t hid my gun, but use common sense, don't carry at bars, banks, lower ed. schools etc... By the way , just git back from your country, May go back before the tourist season starts. Get's pretty crowded during hot weather down there.... we love going down.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Don't do it sarg... the constitution gives you the right to keep and BEAR arms. It's just another form of registration and big brother breaking the law to harass honest citizens. In the South cops aren't really uptight about you having a gun, but I wouldn't try it on either coast or any major city. Rural areas you can just tell them you're hunting coyotes...

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from Richard Smith wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Being a resident of Utah, and a teacher at one of its institutions of higher education, I can tell you that it was a struggle to get things to be the way they are. The president of the University of Utah was very anti-gun and fought every step of the way, trying to be a law unto himself. But, on this one, as on very few other things, our legislators and attorney general saw reason and fought on the side of freedom and right. I give a lot of credit to our campus police, too. For cops, they are pretty good guys.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Sarg: get a cary permit immediately. Some smart Assed cop stop you and that gun is not viewable he will charge you. The rest is simple, cost 90 bucks her for a 5 yr permit. I feel as if I'm not breaking the law now. HAve always carried a gun, but was always in glove compartment. Now it'sin my pocket. I love the dble action Kel-tec 380 as all got to do is pull the trigger. No safety latch or hammer to pull back, just pull the trigger is all you got to do. With the JOHN Q PUBLIC as dumb as it is now, never know when you gonna need on. A breakdown or stop at traffic light is great place to be hi-jacked. Whne the may-be robber sees that bbl pointd at him, he will think twice. AS the old expression goes, never leave home without it. To me thats a gun.Not looking for trouble and do not go where trouble may be, but the road jocks now looking for a freebi.At 73 yrs old, I sure can;t out run them. The 380 may not be a large weapon, but will serve my purpose.When I think its necesary, will carry my 357 or 44-40 in the shoulder holster providing I'm wearing a jacket, otherwise the 380 in my pocket. Get that permit now and then no worry with cops.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

sarg,Do it!

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from sarg wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Well, here where I live, there,s no need tocarry. Its pretty quiet community.. When I travel I may carry or fishing I,ll carry if I,m by myself. If I go walking in the woods I carry something, mostly for snakes. I don,t go to bars or fool around with drunks.. Even with a permitt you can't carry in a resturant that sells drinks.I don't have a permitt to carry, If I want to carry, I carry. They offered to let me have a permitt cheaper because of being Retire Army. They give the class about every Saturday but I don't know...

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Rky Mtn Hunter,Know what you mean man. In my car I carry Smith M60 357, at bedside .40 smith. But late afternoons in summer no concealment I put a Kel-Tec .32 in handkerchef pocket. No its not big enough but I ain't looking for a fight so I move on if theres a problem, if someone continues and runs up to me or their dog a 32 in the forhead will help me get home.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

ishawooa: As a rule, I carry a Kel-tec in 380. Weight is 9 oz, (yep, a true 9 oz) don;t even know its there. It's dble action and the trigger controls the enclosed firing pin and sear. Sometimes, depends on weather, I will carry a 357 mag if wearing a coat and the 357 is in a shoulder holster. I also have very small 22Rev. holds 7 rounds,l always empty, its a litle gun and cannot tell it's in your pocket. What I carry all depends on where I;m going and the weather. But, never without a gun in my pocket, other than places that have a metal det. I pay no attention to those circles with a pistol showing. But, the 380 Kelec is my choice as a rule it's 99% Polymer material ,light wt and dble action. Just pull out and pull the trigger. SAving my 44-40 for the wilds of Montana. PLus always a handgun in my vehicles I drive, and a 4 cell flashlight. Have thought of being broke down on highway at night and a bunch of doped up thugs want my little $ or vehicle. We must protect ourselves now.It took some carrying to get use to a gun in pocket all the time. Now its just auto that is in my right front pocket, as I wear pleated pants and does not show I;m packing a gun. But to each his on, what you feel comfortble with and can shoot well. Again best to pratice handgun shooting as well as rifle's for hunting.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

WA Mtn hunter, to take the sap out of three guys, Shoot the biggest,meanest first. and yes, the 38 spl is superior to the .380.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Naw, don't need no stinkin' high cap autoloader. A double tap with a .357 Smith wheelgun will take the fight out of anyone. I guess if you have more than 3 perps attacking you simultaneously, you might need a high cap. I think even a .38 SPL +P is superior to any .380. JMHO.

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from Scott in Ohio wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Ishawooa and Sarg,Currently looking at a .380 in Bereta M-85 (single stack mag) or the Browning .380 (made by Beretta). Haven't really considered the PPK. I was leaning towards the Beretta for the thinner profile even though it has only 7 rounds instead of the 12 provided by the larger capacity Browning or the double stack model Beretta M-84.Anyone want to weigh in with an opinion for the need of a high capacity mag weapon used for conceiled carry. Anyone ever seen an article that reviewed or studied the need for that many rounds (i.e 8+) fired when they really needed it for a personal defense assault.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Well sort of an oops on my last post; apparently the students at Nebraska had some sort of 'toy' airguns. The school's reaction is not surprising; 'Ban them all!'SA

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from Scott in Ohio wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Check out this article in New York Times about allowing hunter education classes in all schools in WV.http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/08/us/08hunting.html?ex=1205643600&en=c6d9f57d9e9f351d&ei=5070&emc=eta1

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Ishawooa, I'd say your ppk would outbook mine today. They don't lose their value.. I don't have any large pistols right now, got a S/W ss 32 kit gun mod 63 I carry fishing and my old High Standard HB (1942), That all pistols I have.I sold my 9MM a while back. I like the 9MM but love to hear the .45 auto shooting. Unlike the Browning, the H/S has a hammer. They made a Model "B" then they made the "H-B"I wont reblue it because it would lessen the value.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Sarg:The PPKS probably is the best choice but you are one up on me anyway with the SS. The blueing on my 60+ year old pistol is wearing thin and I am thinking of having it reworked. I also have a Browning which I like to shoot but don't feel as comfortable with due to the lack of an external hammer. It points fairly good and esthetically is pleasing. Of course most folks now buy a 3 inch 1911 in .45 or some sort of DAO .40 or 9 mm for a pocket pistol so I guess we are out of style.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

georgia docIt wasn't that long ago, where I went to school, the high schoolers WERE armed. Especially during any game season. Some of the guys were from farming families and carried rifles or shotguns for eliminating deer from peanut/watermelon fields or coyotes from cow herds and believe it or not, coyotes are hard on watermelons also! I don't know why, but they love the blooms, ergo: no melons!Guys that catfished quite a bit carried .22 handguns in their vehicles! It wasn't unheard of for several of us to bring our guns and dove hunt after football practice!Not one single incident! Ever! It is possible to arm high schoolers without incident, but you gotta start earlier in life!Bubba

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Ishawooa, I carry a Walther ppk also in .380. Love the little fellow. Mine is SS. I realy like the ppks better, One more round.

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from georgia doc wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

To BubbaSurely, if it were simply a measure of numbers, I would prefer that fewer are harmed every time! As for whining or work... I work plenty and a charge of whining can only be refuted by, well, whining. I suppose my first point could be understood as a whine. I guess my deeper intent was to say, human beings got where they are by their brains, not their brawn. Please see T.rex for further proof. Prevention is a far better method of action than correction.To Jim in Mo.No I have never worked in a MASH unit. If you are implying that I would think it out place to have a gun in a hospital you would be wrong. I think they are right at home there.To Sum UpI see a sanctity in Churches and Universities that should be unhindered by the possesion of weapons. Free expression can only occur when one is not afraid they will be killed or harmed for their opinion, A great reason why weapons are not allowed at political rallies. Carry everywhere else; I do.At any rate we are talking about 18,19,20 year olds. A few decades ago, sure. Today, would you arm high schoolers? How about middle schoolers? A college student is only 5 years older than a middle schooler. In this day that amounts to about nil in experience.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I guess a lot of the students at Nebraska agree with the 'carry on' side of this post! Based on a news flash I just caught; police responded to the university there for a masked man with a gun and found many students were also armed. HmmmmmSA

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Mark-1: Off subject but hopefully of interest,A friend of mine claimed to have seen a bigfoot here in Park County, Wyoming near one of the sightings reported on the website your so kindly provided. The highway to Yellowstone was being reworked at that time and there were lots of traffic holdups. People sat for 20-30 minutes in line and looked up the mountainside. Quite a few people say they saw the animal at various times that summer. I, on the other hand, have ridden horses all over that country and can't even find a track. Also two tourists stated that they hear it scream. Sounded so much like a woman in distress that they felt obligated to walk up the hill to see if someone was there but found nothing.Rocky Mtn Hunter:What is your flavor in .380? I pack an old Walther PP that my uncle brought back from Europe following WWII. Not effective like my 1911s but it sure is better than knuckles or a stick plus it fits my hand perfectly for instinctive shooting.Odd that someone mentioned Huglu shotguns as my shooting friend Dave emailed me today that he just bought one in Globe, AZ this morning. He will take it to the trap range tomorrow so by this time tomorrow night we will have a in-depth, detailed, no stone left unturned report. Plus he probably will outshoot the Perazzi guys using one hand just to pixx them off.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

If I have my pants on I got my 380, if not wearing pants, a 357 is at arms reach.Every vehicle I drive has at least 2 firearms someplace. We got to take care of ourselves these days. Not enough caring cops to protect us today. Our country has gone crazy, never a night on TV that some Idiot has not killed someone. I instructed my Daughter, Grandaughters, who now and then have to be out at night how to shoot a handgun and to have it beside them while driving.( and they shoot straight as well) It has become a sad day when we afraid to be out at night or on a lonely highway in the day time. Get a carry permit, learn how to shoot a handgun and protect yourself. A dog is fine at home, but a handgun is also perfect when away from home. Forget the signs on store doors(no firearms allowed) mine is in my pocket, weighs 9 oz and will go thru a metal detector easily. Shoot-um-straight and pratice much.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

P.S.,I meant to include that this age group of university 'youths' are grad. students working on their msters or Phd's. Way beyond binge drinking frat house kids.The church goers are young marrieds' hoping for a good family life.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

georgia doc,I take it you never worked in a MASH unit?In Mo. a person must be 21 (perhaps 23) to carry concealed(with proper training). I'll gladly have that lady or man next to me in church or my next continueing ed. class.

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from crm3006 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph and Bubba,Well stated, and Amen. I think we can put this one to bed,because neither sarge nor the Georgia doc are ever going to get it.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

georgia docWould you rather patch up three or four folks and pronounce one DOA, or pronounce thirty three DOA and write "self inflicted gun shot wound" on one of the death certificates!?Certainly there's going to be some out there that just can't do the "right" thing, and you're either going to have to patch them up, whether it's a "gsw" or not, or get out of the medical profession!So quit whining or get to work!Bubba

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

If I had an appetite for destruction I would be trying to take away every one's right to defend themselves...

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from georgia doc wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Gentlemen,Please allow me to preface my statement that I am all for concealed weapons and their use but I have three thoughts I would like to add to this discussion.When you draw and use your weapons, there will be blood. Then it becomes some sap's (mine)responsibility to resuscitate or proclaim death. My point is however "legal" or "right" you are, when you uncloak that pistol chances of death occurring (including yours) rise dramatically.Second, those of you who have attended a University should know better. There are two places where weapons should never be allowed: churches and universities. Considering their history(ideally anyway), both have been places of Sanctuary and Freedom of thought. In no way can you achieve either when there are weapons in place. Anything used to protect can be subverted to destroy. Please see Alfred Nobel's sickening discovery of this principle. No doubt this places both at risk for atrocities. However, weapons take just as much freedom as they give.Third, all of you who have responded saying "when I was in school we carried guns," have effectively proven why this can not be the case now. My generation X and the current one are entirely different than any of you who finished schooling in the 60s,70s or even 80s. As a prior opinioner accurately stated, we are self absorbed, irrational, entitled, celebrity worshipers. Why, WHY would you give carry rights to today's students? Many of us can hardly drive, and would not have the attention span to read this post. Have an appetite for destruction? Give a powerful tool to today's youth.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I just saw a hunt on the outdoor channel in Colorado and the host said he had that hair on the back of the neck thing going on, figured a big bear was nearby so they checked the 25 trail cams and came up with eight frames of something walking upright with huge hairy arms and nobody had the gonads to even guess what it was...

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

It seems that everyone is looking at the crazies with this guns in my pocket ,killing 35 people thing. the reason guns are not permitted here, it's the guys who are normaly sane, but gets drunk or looses a lot of money that gets mad. or after a fight as we all know young people do, that wind up killing the other or just simply, to get even... Pardon my poorly worded muddle. Been on many bases where gun are turned at gate until you depart. I've even denied permission to carry personal firearms overseas.Don't get caught with a weapon in your barracks or auto at Ft. Knox...you,ll probable spend the rest of your tour in strips. I carry a lot, have carried at work, but the rules just wasn't enforced.. But not in dorm rooms.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Maybe Ol' Elmer did the shoot, shovel, and shut up thing over in Ideeho.That's why they have been no confirmed sightings.....lately

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from LowRecoil wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Notice how I cleverly segue this thread to another Gun Nut topic, thus ensuring the Circle of Life:Gee, I hope those of you going out after Bigfoot have the good sense to use a .338. Elmer Keith was a big proponent of using the .338 on Bigfeet. (Okay, maybe he never wrote that, but he would've if he had thought of it.)

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

crm3006In Seattle area now. At LZ English and Ahn Khe 70-71! Co C, 2/503rd Inf ABN and later MACV Tm 26 and 33.Your puppies rocked!

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from crm3006 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter:I am currently in Bacliff, TX. Was stationed on English in 70-71 with the 39th IPSD, attached to the Engineer Battalion.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

crm3006Where are you Bro? When were you in the 173rd? Which Batt?

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from crm3006 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Sarge,Thanks for another poorly worded muddle. Don't know what posts you have been on, but I was constantly armed on LZ English RVN, and have been known to be armed on Ft. Benning, GA, Ft. Polk, LA, Ft. Sill, OK. and the list goes on. Oh, and did you overlook the MPs? Last I knew, they mostly went armed.As to erudite Okies, I thought that was just a natural condition,probably honed and stoned a bit from being an alumnus of MIT.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Bigfoot????Here's a link for latest Bigfoot news. Sorta interesting to keep up-to-date on what's going on in the wilds.http://www.bfro.net/

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from Jack Ryan wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

"THE POLICE GET THERE AFTER THE FACT."Exactly. The people should be carrying the guns and give the police clip boards and a mop.

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from LowRecoil wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Chad Love:I will certainly check out the Bigfoot piece. I may have already read it; I read Oklahoma Today often. Incidentally, you just KNOW that all the non-natives are pronouncing Honobia "Ho-no-bee-uh".These posts, in fact, are emanating from Push County. If you checked out the Outdoor page in last Sunday's Oklahoman, you'll note that two potential state record whitetails came from here during the 2007 season. I didn't notice them while I was hunting.

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from Chad Love wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Low Recoil,Off blog-topic but if you want the definitive account of Bigfoot in Oklahoma, then check out the September/October 2005 issue of Oklahoma Today magazine.In it there is an absolutely first-rate piece penned by a writer of unusual talent and insight who fearlessly pursued Bigfoot all over southeastern Oklahoma, from Honobia to Idabel.However, most of this extraordinarily gifted writer's research and exploration centered along the Zone II area of the Lower Mountain Fork river, because everybody knows that where you find big rainbows you will also find big foots.I'm sure you can find a copy in the stacks at your local library. I highly recommend it over that ridiculous Travel Channel "documentary" that used to air incessantly around Halloween.I live out on the plains now but my family hails from all over Pushmataha County.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

The only way an Okie can achieve erudition is by innoculation!Bubba

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from LowRecoil wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Bubba: I live in Southeastern Oklahoma, surrounded by deer, turkeys and the occasional Bigfoot (if the Travel Channel is to be believed).ChadLove: I have always lived under the impression that erudition is inocculated at birth in Oklahoma hospitals.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

crm3006, there's another place you don;t walk around with a weapon, aUSMC camp or army post. air base, ETC.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Chad LoveI resemble that remark!!Bubba

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from Chad Love wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I will say the closest I've ever come to a campus shooting was the night I got trapped for three hours inside Dale Hall Tower while the University of Oklahoma police department, the Norman police department, the Oklahoma Highway Patrol and for all I know the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, Delta Force and Walker, Texas Ranger searched frantically for a "man with a gun" that turned out to be a history prof who thought it'd be neat to show his Civil War history class a period firearm.

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from Chad Love wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Damn there are a lot of erudite Okies on this blog...

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Low Recoil, Midnight Banjo, can't remember the other guy. How many Okies are around? I'm a Tex/Okie? Texan by birth/Okie by marriage!MidBan, you're from the Tulsa area, correct? Where you near Low Recoil?BTW Low Recoil, they also introduced legislation to allow concealed carry on "public" university campus's! (campusi?)Bubba

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from MidnightBanjo wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

My friend did a re-blue job on an old .22 and I refinished the stock - it's never looked better!

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from LowRecoil wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

MidnightBanjo: Yep, Murray State College. Or, as the students refer to it: MIT (Murray, In Tishomingo). Saw a Model 94 a student did there as a school project. Nickel finish, wood with more figure than Dolly Parton and an octagonal barrel. Quite a piece.

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from Trae B. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Well I was thinking about it and now I have a different view.I know a few people that if they were fighting and had the chance they would shoot.I believe in pure,clean fist-fights.And I know a 8 year old kid who pulled a knife on me because he wanted my doughnut and i diddent give to him,me and my buddy got the knife from him.And he got into alot of trouble because it was his deddy's knife.he had allright parents but he was very bad tempered.So if a little kid will try to kill ya I know some people my age will.

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from MidnightBanjo wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Low Recoil - Good to see another Okie on here! Was that school you referred to earlier in Tisamingo? I have a buddy that graduated from their gun smithing program.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I know a young man who is a prison guard here at Sandy Hook, Ky... He cannot carry a weapon on duty or even a nightstick. He has to go in with nothing but a radio ,amoung the prisnors and breack up fights . Now if he had a gun it could be used against him. There are time and places where a gun just does not belong. Prisons, and University dorm room are two, I'msure there are others, not intending to take anyone rights. they just don't belong...

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

When I hear about an organization that "doesn't allow concealed carry," I ask myself, "Why allow a bunch of misinformed nitwits to deprive you of a God-given right?" In the final analysis, it's none of their business. If you carry concealed, the only person who should know it is you. If this sounds like a call to lawlessness, you've got the wrong idea. The people who are trying to deprive you of your rights are the lawless ones. Listen, folks--the government doesn't give you rights. The Constitution doesn't give you rights. What legitimate governments and constitutions are supposed to do is recognize the rights you possess by virtue of being a human being, and protect those rights. In this day and time, if I were a student or faculty member--and I've been both--I'd sure have a firearm within reach. And I would never, ever tell a soul about what I had or where it was. States have state secrets, and individuals can have individual secrets! You have to assess risks and weigh them against the legal problems you will run into if you are found to have a weapon, but you must remember that the people who make these rules against weapons won't be there when somebody starts shooting at you. By the way, you don't have to allow police to search you at a traffic stop, because the police aren't going to find any more evidence that you were speeding or ran a stop sign by looking inside your vehicle. You can and should refuse a warrantless vehicle search--it also prevents drugs from being planted inside your car. If your state offers a CCW license, by all means get one. But if you let some left-wing politico leave you vulnerable to attack, it's your fault. You can bet your bottom dollar that even the left-wing politicos, like Diane Feinstein, believe in having weapons for themselves even while they're denying your right to have a weapon for yourself! I guess they'll come after me now!

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from LowRecoil wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Somewhat relative: In my home state (Oklahoma), a bill is under consideration that would reduce the minimum age for a concealed carry permit to 18. The author of the bill said that if 18-year-olds were old enough to serve in the armed forces, they should be old enough to carry concealed weapons. Also: "In my district, by that age, most of them already have 16 years of experience."

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from Shotgunlou wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Hey all! Check this out. This is a link to the article in the Arizona Republic about the legislation in the senate re. guns on campus. At the bottom of the article is a link to the reporters email, Scott Wong. Please email him with your support for this billhttp://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0226guns0226.html

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from crm3006 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Sorry, Sarge,just caught the Kentucky location. Still North of I-10, and a Yankee thang.

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from crm3006 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Sarge,If I read your garbled mishmash correctly, you are bemoaning the fact that the school you worked athas admitted a tribe of Vandals.Sounds to me as if they could use some plain old fasioned disipline,applied with a mesquite wood stick! Or at least some retro-active back charges for damages to the parents who raised such hoodlums. Too bad that they abolished the draft, it has made amany a bad boy go good. One other comment, if you have raised a 20 year old that is so irresponsible you won't trust him with your truck, could it be that you need to take a long look at yourself in a mirror? Nor did you read my comment in it's entirety, and I quote:"As long as that person is of sound mind, not a convicted felon, nor a danger to himself or others...." Obviously, these young men? are not of sound mind, or at least not thinking rationally. Points to a lack of proper upbringing, probably in a very, very PC environment. I sympathize with your problem, but in my years in a Committe Group (TNG), we dealt with more than a few of this sort, and put the vast majority of them on the path to righteousness. I understand that the USMC is also noted for this. Goes back to that old "Responsible behavior starts with being given responsibility." Quoting another passage you either failed to read or understand. You did not give your location, but I can only conclude it must be a Yankee thing. Again, you have my sympathy.

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from Dale M wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

"And then, when the smoke clears, the media will descend, giving him his 15 minutes of fame, rolling around in the sorrow and suffering like a dog digging its shoulder into a dungheap."MAN DP!!! You nailed it with that rolling around in it like a dog comment!

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from Tyrel wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I made a comment in my university class in Utah about guns and hunting being part of my childhood and even then profesor acted like I was crazy. Unfortunately, I go to a private school that still won't allow concealed carry, but I was glad to read this article and see that there still are reasonable people in the world.

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from Zermoid wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I graduated HS in 1980, and we had a few guys who brought in a shotgun to go hunting after school on occasion, it wasn't a big deal then either. Do that nowdays and you'd probably have a SWAT team at the school in minutes. What's wrong with people? I don't know, but often wonder if Requiring people to own guns and carry same would help, if someone thinking of wrong doing KNEW that half or better of the people there were carrying I think you'd see a big drop in crime, if for no other reason than most of the nut jobs would be dead in short order.

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from Michael wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Have to get in this anyway. One thing that most everyone misses in debating the concealed carry vs. police protecting the citizens argument is the uncontested, unchallengeable fact that the ONLY people at the scene of a crime are the perpetrators and the victims. THE POLICE GET THERE AFTER THE FACT. I would rather carry a weapon than chance a law officer being close enough to help me.

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from Chad Love wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

There's not much I can add to the debate except this: hug your kids whenever you get a chance, because life is so damn random it might be your last.I was reading a wire story this morning about the Florida Wendy's shooting and I was struck by a passage that described how one of the victims had gone back into the Wendy's to exchange the toy in his child's meal.His family was waiting for him in the parking lot when he was shot and killed.Something as trivial as a worker dropping the wrong toy in a bag set in motion a chain of events that led to a horrible tragedy for this family.We live in strange and unsettled times, guys. I'm not a doomer or anything but sometimes I look around and I see so many profoundly unhappy, deeply troubled and emotionally detached people that I can't help but think that our culture is on some fundamental level completely broken and dysfunctional.I certainly don't have the answers to whether it's a good idea to allow college students to carry on campus, but I do know the fact that the question is even being raised speaks volumes to how troubled our society is.In the face of so much insanity, all I know how to do is hug my kids, protect them as best I can and hope like hell that somehow the world they'll someday raise their kids in will start making sense again.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

My apologies,I know that Okla. and Tex. require that you attend an 8 hour class and shoot at a range to acquire a CHL.I agree that they are charging a fee for a "constitutional" right, and I won't argue that point.I am glad that there are some states left that recognize the 2A!Bubba

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Unless the law's changed New York has never in 70-years+ required "training" prior to issuing a concealed carry permit. In fact, State sport groups have fought that notion.

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from Jack Ryan wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

"I don't know of any state that does not require class room and range training before qualifying for a CHL.Bubba"They you obviously still have things left to learn. We do not require you satisfy some beaurocrat's idea of training prior to exercising your constitutional right in Indiana. They have managed to institute a FEE for some of those "rights".

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from Terrance Mahoney wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Sad but true those days are gone.I carried my shot gun in a soft case many times on the school bus,with ammo and hunting clothes in a duffel bag to high school so I could go with the principle and a few of the teachers to hunt ducks on the river behind the school after the bell rang. For what it's worth I learned more on those outings to prepare me to succede in life than I did in four years of high school and four more in college.Take a kid hunting every chance you get,would do more good than you can imagine.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Oh Mocki,You ain't seen nothing yet. Storm just past thru St. Louis area got inch or more an hour for 7 hr. hi-way 70 down.

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from Mock1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Scott in Ohio.Vito's baby! We just opened in Holland Oh. Ont the northeast corner of Mccord and Angols, across from the Kroger Store. Ask for the owner Mike, that's me, and if I'm not there, tell em I said I'm good for a free pie. I'll call up there right now and have them put scott in ohio in the computer to give you one free specialty pizza for takout. We are bldng o new one inSwanton in 6 mos.

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from Mock1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Scott in Ohio,Cmon man, Toledo is almost too little to have suburbs!! I live in Sugar Ridge Oh., about 5 miles north of BG. out in the sticks. How are you liking this weather tonight? I've seen 75 at a standstill twice tonight. Hunker down!

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

CRM3006, Do you think people who go's through a dorm. on the weekend and tear every water cooler off the wall, breaks out the windows of several dorm rooms punch holes in the cieling tiles in a complete 16 floor dormatory have the intelligence to have a handgun in their room.. I may be old fashon, but these people are indeed suppose to be responsible adults. do they show responsibility to piss in the fan coil units and then call maintance to repair them.. I know ,I was the maint. man sent to these rooms.. should this person have a hand gun in their room?. I'm not against gun ownership, I sure don't believe in gun reg. but if my child,(well not a child at 20),ibelive I'd make some corrections. If he is not responsible does he drive my new truck, not hardly... I know that there are many students who does not uphold this type actions, I personally knew 75% of the students here and most of their parents.

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from Scott in Ohio wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Mock1What is the name of your Pizza chain? I'll have to drop by to get a pie.

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from Scott in Ohio wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Back in the early 1990s I lived near Philadelphia, PA. Did anyone here ever used to listen to the "Grease Man" on the radio?As I recall he was very pro-gun and funny too.Mock1 and Jack - I live in a suburb of Toledo, OH. Glad to see some folks from near-by on the blog.

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from Trae B. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

By the way I was the one complaining about how hard it is to get a drivers lincense as Bubba mentioned above.

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from Mock1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

crm3006,Right on! I got shitfaced all during HS. We threw beer bottles in the air to try shoot them w/ all sorts of firearms at bonfire parties. The cops would show up and shoot w/ us, using our guns of course. This was in 82. I had a pistol hanging off my truck gun rack w/ the door unlocked and never had it stolen. We never had an accidental shooting those 4 yrs. We were kids blowing off steam. I own a couple pizza stores in Toledo, Oh now and was at a meeting w/ springfield HS in Holland Ohio to set up a pizza program w/ them. I remarked how it was not hard to find a parking space for the meeting. the principle told me it was because not many kids drive anymore. Two seniors who work for me don't drive yet. I graduated from Evergreen HS in Evergreen Colo. and you couldn't find a parking space. The average 18 yr old acts like a 14 yr old now. My point is that the more responsibility we take from these kids nowdays, the less responsible these kids are going to be. Teach them the way we were taught. You may have some accidents, but that is how a real society learns, from the mistakes of others. I can't remember, but isn't that called the strong survive and the weak will not? I know that sounds cold hearted, but that, my friends, is life. We are like the proverbial buffalo herd, the wolves are out there to prey on the old, the, young, the sick, the weak, and yes, the stupid.

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from Michael wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Jeez, by the time I read all the postings I was too damn tired to vent my feelings. Score one again for Petzal.

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from crm3006 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I agree with Charles Burkland, this country is going to HELL in a handbasket. Not only because of recent Supreme Court decisions, which are wacky to say the least, but also because of comments like the above " I've seen how "s&%t faced some of these kids get nowdays and really don't believe guns should be permitted in dorm rooms, we never had a problem here at school,but the kids do get wild on Sat. Night." and "not to have employee carry guns in their cars." C'mon, Sarge, these are YOUR Second Amendment Rights, being whittled away little by little, and not by law, but by fiat of employers, and campus ivory tower types. This is not law, just a rule, that if somebody had the nuts and guts to stand up and say "You people cannot override the Law of the Land, which is the Constitution Of These United States", would probly be unenforciable!! BUT, God help us all, we have come to depend on others to protect us, and we bend to easily before the rules of petty tyrants. Why should anyone need permission from any orginization to be legally armed? As long as that person is of sound mind, not a convicted felon, nor a danger to himself or others, no one and by this I include college age students, should be permitted to forbid them arms! Time was, not so long ago, that we drafted these young men and sent them off to fight wars. And now, they are so drunken on Saturday night we cannot allow them to possess a firearm? Responsible behavior starts with being given responsibility. The slippery slope to total subjugation by a relentless politicaly correct society starts with giving up a few rights, such as not being allowed to posess a legal weapon in a public parking lot. By your way of thinking, and what with the current danger of having either Hitlery of B. Husain Osamma in the White House, maybe we should all just practice up our checker game and get ready to sit on the porch. The Guv'ment will Protect Us.

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from Charles Burklund wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

you can't legislate morality or ethics..."Because just as good morals, if they are to be maintained, have need of the laws, so the laws, if they are to be observed, have need of good morals."Niccolo MachiavelliConsidering many of the Supreme Court's recent decisions, anyone got any ideas as to why the country's going to Hell in a handbasket?

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

waMtn Hunter, this blog reminds me when I went to school, they would stop you at the door and ask if you had a gun. If you said "no "they would say "take this one"( Joke )

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Why would anyone want to listen to Don Imus? I listened to him for awhile several years ago. He is a buffoon that should be kicked to the curb by listeners, not the FCC or radio networks.Rush just spouts the same tired drivel year after year. He probably hopes Hillary or Obama get elected so he hasa target for the next four years or so.Blah, blah, blah, ba-blah.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Just happened to thing,(I do it at times) but on another blog I frequent, a young woman was telling her story, a gunman threatened the people in her church, she stepped up, Identified herself and took him down.. She did well in my book.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Dave I just retired from a state university here in Kentucky... Everyone here carries or at least own several guns,BUT, I've seen how "s&%t faced "some of these kids get nowdays and really don't believe guns should be permitted in dorm rooms, we never had a problem here at school,but the kids do get wild on Sat. Night. Not everyone would do any thing with guns here but many student come from out of state and are not used to way of doing things... They made it a condition of employment, not to have employee carry guns in their cars. We all did with no problems but one never knows what someone else would do when mad. I'm a strong believer in the 2nd admendment but don't really believe they should be in dorm rooms on campus. Just heard on the news today that one university are getting rifles for their campus police because a hand gun will not reach top of these tall buildings...

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from wolfjaw wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

We have definitely come a long way. Time (1960s)was I could grab a rifle or shotgun, walk down a street enroute to a farm or back woods patch to hunt small game. If anyone took notice, it was to deliver a positive comment or to inquire about my success. In that time and place, no one in the media glamorized crime, justified it or rationalized inappropriate behavior.The issue was never firearms, but a propensity to misuse them; The issue now, is not about guns, but about mental health...and you can't legislate mental health or correct behavior, so the politically correct thing to do is castigate the responsible citizen and deamonize the inanimate object: the firearm. How I wish thngs had never changed. I condemn the media for irresponsible reporting; the entertainment industry for glorifying the misuse of firearms and weak spined men and women that refuse to stand up, speak their truth and stop the craziness. I believe if we (sportsmen) are not part of the solution, then we are clearly part of the problem. And, if we don't join a pro- first amendment organization, then we can expect worse in the future.

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from NH Philosopher wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

you can't legislate morality or ethics - no law in the world will protect individuals and organized groups from unwarranted and surprise attacks from psychopaths. individuals need to have the firm ability to protect themselves - because no one else has that ability. guns on campus a fine idea in the book of NH Philosopher.

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from Black Rifle Addict wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Well I gotta hand it to ya Dave, this topic is hotter then your damn .338 mag does it better, one!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Cabela's for only an hour? You must get way too much free stuff in the mail Dave... besides it's more like three months and back to the same old same old. Rush and his excellence in broadcasting with half his brain tied behind his back just to make it fair for the liberals got old fast, and I didn't even realize he was telling the truth about his brain. Maybe now that he's down to a handful of OxyContin a day he's more listenable. I listened to G. Gordon Liddy every day for ten years and now I swear I could do his show better myself and still use his answers and experiences.We're just getting old is my answer. Kind of like getting tired of killing things or catching fish or listening to washed up rock n' rollers after a while the thrill is gone... oh to be twelve again.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

DaveI grew up listening to Imus when he was funny (to a group of pedantic middle schoolers). Just like the rest when he got political he got decidely less funny. When he tried to be funny people didn't take it that way, political correctness bit him in the ass. I can't listen to him anymore; kinda the same thing as watching the Rolling Stones pretend to be 20 something again, some things just need to end.As for other Talk Radio, ugh, rather shop with my (very wonderful) mother-in-law for a day than listen to that crap for an hour!SA

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

There was a 1984 US Supreme Court decision that involved the two women plaintiffs in Washington, D.C., who were raped repeatedly while a D.C. police cruiser simply drove by, without the officers getting out of their car. The decision of the Court was that no special duty to protect was owed to an individual, but only to society as a whole--which pretty makes the whole police thing worthless. The police have no "duty" to respond to an individual's 911 call--just to protect the public at large. In the D.C. case, the women were sexually assaulted over a 14-hour period. I disagree with the Court over this decision. No, the police cannot be everywhere, but when they are CALLED, they should respond and try to determine what's going on. I am one person who will NOT delegate the responsibility of protecting my family to the police!

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from Charles Burklund wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

The most dangerous place to be, statistically, in the US is a Gun free zone. For those who think legal carry doesn’t prevent more bloodshed, remember the Colorado Springs Church. That nut job only killed 2 people in each of 2 places. The first was, I believe, a gun free zone. The second place, in a CHURCH, he killed 2 people and when struck by return fire from a legally carried weapon, he killed himself. The shrinks claim these people can’t control themselves in planning & committing their evil deeds. But it seems to be a trend that these sick, twisted people would often rather kill themselves, than be taken alive or be fired upon by police (or someone choosing not to be a victim). They thrive on the terror they cause. They choose places where resistance is impossible. That is why they choose GUN FREE ZONES. It is all about a sick perverted sense of control. What better control do you have than when you have created an environment of terror without the possibility of your victims resisting? It IS set in stone.Many years ago in the Army there was a sign on the wall, “KTA, LGSTO”. “Kill them all, let God sort them out”. That’s how I believe we should deal with every mass killing perp. They need to meet sudden, massive, overwhelming, unrelenting, savage resistance from their would-be victims. The only way that is possible is to allow legal carry and have all GUN FREE ZONES heavily patrolled by armed POLICE, not Security guards.When Florida first allowed legal CCW, the anti-gunners went nuts, talked about blood running in the streets. And for a short time there was, but only until most of the really bad guys were put down by citizens defending themselves.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I have to agree with Yoop and others on the whole "talk radio" thing.I used to listen to Rush and a couple of the others and it just got to be the same old tired crap, day after day after day.Got bored and switched the channel.Jim

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

The thought that always enters my mind, it that there are many "Conservative" talk show hosts, hammering day in and day out that we need to stand up for ourselves, get off the Gov't tit and quit listening to "Liberal" double/speak politicians that tell us what we want to hear and not what they have in mind for "us" (U.S.!)! The trickery they go through to get you to believe one thing while they're slipping into your backyard with the "best of intentions"!Why are there no "Liberal" talk show hosts/programs! Expounding the virtues of increasing taxes, increasing Gov't programs, and "Let the Gov't take care of YOU!"Where are they!? I'd like to listen to one for a bit to see what it's like!Bubba

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

YooperJack,You can listen to Imus and others thru your computer while reading this blog. Search 77WABC-AM.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Mark-1, Bubba:I kind of mispoke earlier. I wasn't referring to a secret police. Just ordinary folks who would carry anywhere. If everyone knows that Prof. Jones in the Physics Dept is carrying, a crazed shooter would know not to shoot up that class. Thus, I would rather know that a high proportion of the teachers at Jefferson Elementary are armed, rather than knowing whom the armed teachers are. Also, I believe that anyone charged with protecting people by uing guns should undergo more intensive traing than people like myself.Dave Petzal:At a time where talk radio listening should be increasing, I can't listen anymore. I honestly think that you could turn it off for a month, turn it back on, and you would have missed nothing. I think its the overall negative theme of all of the shows right now. Never had a chance to hear Imus. I was thinking about buying sattlelite radio, but I don't think I would buy it for his show alone. The classic rock music genre really has me intrigued though.YooperJack

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from Dan D. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

In my "Great State of Connecticut" (that's sarcasm) the police are not liable for your personal protection. You cannot sue the state or town police departments if they weren't around to help you.Having said that, CT has this in our state constitution:SEC. 15. Every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state.Which is very specific in giving an individual the right to bear arms.Our Concealed carry laws are some of the toughest in the nation, often compared to California, yet being in the middle of the process, its really not that bad. After haing taken the NRA course, you 1st apply to the town, which fingerprints you and sends a copy to the state for a background check. After your "Temporary town permit" comes through (2-3 weeks depending on the town) you go to the state police and get you permit.A note on "training"...I don't belive the 6-8hr NRA course I took could count as training. My training started at the age of 10 when I 1st shot a pistol under the watchful eye of my father. It was rather pitiful too see what qualified as a passing shooting test from some of the other people in the class. So "training" can mean many things.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Bubba,Have a good day!Jim

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

DPSometimes you need repetition to drive a point home and make it stick!BUT, (there's that but [butt?] again!) you're right! On and on and on......Bubba

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

jstreetOne more comment and I'll leave it!My point about the driving/handgun license thing was this:Drivers Ed is several class room hours. Best I remember, 8 to 10 hours behind the wheel, THEN pass a test to be licensed!These are the most dangerous drivers on the planet, responsible for more deaths than any other "licensed" drivers!CHL permit is an 8 hour class, and approximately 20/30 minutes on a range. Then, it's on to a background check and issue a license! With no more "training" than that, this is probably the safest, most reliable people on earth, responsible for less deaths than even police shootings in one major metro area annually!Sometimes, more is not better!Sometimes, less is more!Bubba

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from Dave Petzal wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

And now for something completely different.Imus--not nearly as funny as before. The stammer and the muttering are major problems. Time to go?Also, I've begun listening to WABC (Breaking Wind and Stimulating Talk) and it seems that Mssrs. Hannerty, Limbaugh, et all repeat themselves over and over. You can be listening, take an hour in Cabela's, turn on the radio again, and you haven't missed a thing. Is this accurate?

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Yes, children are different than they were 50 years ago and probably the change is not for the better. I would still prefer for them to have the choice to have a .40 S&W in their hand when the proverbial $h*t hits the fan than a blue pole with a phone line to the police. "Just hang tight until we get there" right... and we sure don't need secret police. The armed society, polite society quote says it all for me too.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Chev Jim,Was it Houston or somewhere in Colorado where the "wacko" walked into the church and opened fire.A lady heard the ruckus, confronted the shooter and ended up neutralizing (killing) him!There is another instance of an armed citizen saving lives. Just another spot that was glibly mentioned in the news and then swept under the rug!DP,Seems I remember that happening, just don't seem to remember any details, which, is pretty normal for me!Bubba

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from Dave Petzal wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Here's something else to throw into the pot. In the late 1980s (I think), I reported on a lawsuit against the Washington, DC police department by two young women who were raped repeatedly in their house as a DC police cruiser circled the house, looking for signs of crime. The court found against the plaintiffs, stating that while the police have an obligation to protect society as a whole, they have no obligations to protect individuals. Anyone remember this? If so, please post particulars.

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I just thought of something. If the shooter at the McDonald's in West Palm Beach had been shot by an armed citizen the moment he fired at innocent bystanders, this would not have made the national news. The best you could have hoped for was Section D, page 14 of the daily newspaper. Some years ago in my hometown in Alabama, there were two armed robbers that burst into a Shoney's. The robbers started rounding up the customers and directing them toward some cold storage lockers. A licensed CCW holder drew his .45 auto and blasted the two robbers, killing one and severely wounding the other. My liberal hometown newspaper quoted him as saying he wasn't a hero, and tried to play down the fact he had saved lives that day. Nor did the heroic acts on his part make the national news. There's a definite media bias against reporting successes by armed citizens. Such news items doesn't fit their "canon" of news that supports the media's own political agenda. When the liberal broadcast networks kept accusing Fox of being "biased" toward the right-wing, I just about laughed my head off. It's bad when the media are biased; it's much worse when the media doesn't realize that they are, in fact, biased.

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from crm3006 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Police will protect us?Heaven above help us all!!In nearly any edition of any major newspaper one cares to peruse, there is some story of police or prosecutor malfeasance, and since the feds re-wrote the instant check standards to include spousalabuse/domestic violence as an exclusion from purchasing a firearm, a high percentage of our law enforcement is legally prohibited from CHL!No, I am not denigrating the vast majority of our law enforcement that is upstanding and dedicated and moral. They are simply overwhelmed, and by the very nature of our laws, the police are re-active, not pro-active. To put a point on it, law enforcement has no duty to protect the individual. They simply show up to take the statements and do the reports. I know this from painful, first hand experience. When it comes to my or my loved ones personal protection, either in our home, or any where else I choose to walk as a free Texan, I will depend on myself, and that wonderful invention of John Moses Browning that has been a good friend to me in more than one tight situation.One more item of note: Every state that has passed a concealedcarry law, and allowed citizens their God given and Second Ammendment guaranteed right to bearmed and protect themselves, has seen an overall drop in violent crime! You will not read this in the anti-gun MSM, but check out Professor John Lott for a few statistics.

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from John R wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Bubba (Quote)"The video games don't make criminals. Parents not caring what their children are doing OR getting involved in their childrens lives is what causes "bad" kids!Liberal's who think that the Gov't "owes" them a living and not wanting to be responsible for their own actions and the actions of their children causes "bad" kids!"No argument from me on that excellent point. I believe it (video game) isn't only one causitive factor and your quote above concerning negligent parents is certainly the lion's share of the problem. I still believe the current crop of Hollywood's more violent features has a desensitizing effect towards violence on today's kids.Good catch on my post!

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from jcarlin wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I've never been able to come to a conclusion on this issue. As a 32 year old commuter student with a carry permit who heads into the city for class at night, I'd really appreciate the ability to carry on campus. I also remember being an 18 year old in a dormitory where a large percentage of my floor-mates where experiencing new found freedoms and controlled substances for the first time. I don't believe that's an ideal environment for firearms. I feel that there should be a middle ground, but I don't know what it should be. I am not a fan of arming teachers only for several reasons. Members of academia are not always the most balanced of people for one and I don't think they should be made a target of as the only threat in a room for another.Where does that leave us?

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Jim in Mo,Think nothing of it. :-)Rebuilt the soapbox. To All:Be careful what you want to legislate. The “mental health benchmark” would red-line 95% of us ex-military types to possess any firearm. i.e. look at what the recent vets are facing.I must reaffirm Chev Jim. New York has come close to instituting a special class of citizen with law enforcement types, retired and active. I’m not certain of the Raison Etre, but nothing is more secure by these watchful, ARRP weapon carriers. In fact, the last 15-years not one postal worker has gone “postal” in Upstate New York. However, within that time there have been at least ten-causalities by law enforcement going nuts.Another Item: New York quietly modified the Domestic Violence Law when 40% of the State Trooper roll would have been ineligible to carry and possess firearms.This public information gets Government real quiet.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Mark-1Congradulations on your fine service record, didn't mean to get huffy with you just get irritated when some people to quickly say lay people are well protected as is and we're basically nuts. If you want to get your blood boiling click on my post about midway into 'You bet your glass'. Of course its the people on the far coasts telling me how to live.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I really feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but I really don't think we, as freedom loving Americans, can afford to sit back and allow anti-gun, anti-carry zealots to overthrow our 2A rights!Most states have been effectively handling the licensure of persons wanting to carry a "weapon", concealed or not! The "background" check that CHL applicants get is much more thorough than a NCIC check at the Federal level for a weapons purchase.I, personally, DO NOT like the idea of persons with mental health issues being "listed" with that "list" being labeled no purchase, no carry! This doesn't mean we need to give mental patients firearms either, there just needs to be a "better" way!What ever happened to doctor/patient confidentiality? Or has that been thrown out by our Politically Correct society!?Bubba

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Gary, I think the police are stupid for wanting to "clear" every CCW holder out of an area before letting the EMTs enter. That's elitism, and that's stupidity. We've had a lot of incidents near my city of Atlanta and nationwide in which cops killed their spouses and other innocent people. So, I'm sorry, but the police don't have any halos over their heads. This is not to denigrate the police, but to simply state that in such a situation, they should treat CCW holders as the honest, sovereign citizens that they are instead of trying to set up a "gun-free zone" around a crime scene. As far as these "mass shooters" go, what can you say but these are people who have "lost it" or "gone off the deep end." The problem with our society today is that persons with such feelings very often cannot get the help they need. Some people turned away from mental health hospitals have gone on rampages. None of that gives people the right to kill others, of course, but we've got to make better provisions for health care--mental and otherwise--if we want such people as the McDonald's shooter cared for in a facility rather than running around and shooting other people. That said, I would have personally shot the McDonald's shooter if I had been there and had been armed. I would have hated to do it, but I couldn't have just watched him shoot other people. I also agree that "gun-free zones" are preludes to "killing fields," and I am tired of this elitist mentality that only military and police and capable of employing firearms and exercising common sense.

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from Matthew Acton wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

As a 40 year old doctoral student who gets to interact with the 20-something year olds who are the general population of the campus I attend in Arizona, I have a unique perspective I would like to share.It isn't the campus security that is the problem, nor is it campus administration. IT IS an age group of the population that is incredibly detached, unresponsive, and completely self-absorbed. I have never seen a more apathetic group of people in my life- including when I was freshman over 20 years ago - that what is now enrolled. These selfish, spoiled kids just don't give a damn about anything but themselves. They sure don't know how to EARN a degree; they expect it to be handed to them.Arizona has a bill now in the Legislature that will permit the same type of concealed carry as Utah. I, for one, am completely for it. I really don't want to be lecturing a class or working on my research at my lab one day just to be cut down by some whiny punk who feels he got the shaft because he was expected to work for once in his pathetic life.

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from Tom Obuhanych wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Dave must be as ancient as I, Igraduated from a Miltary Academy in1964.But all the verbiage aside, note that all these recent shootings have been by mental problem people.There will never be any way to stop a crazy from shooting up some people.One answer, I think may partly work is if any treatment for a mental problem, even one visit,the info goes to a list sent to all gun stores prohibiting any sales, or at least until further checks.I don't see anything else that may work. If the crazies are on a "do not sell" list..that would prevent some, like the latest ones. Otherwise, there is no real answer. I'm from the West, too &I can walk down main street packing a sidearm...perfectly legal (if exposed, not concealed).And some pack going into NRA dinners, gun shows, etc. But able to carry is not a real deterrent anyway, unless most do & that will never happen, So rather than rant & rave about the situation, I vote for any mental treatment record be listed as not being able to sell to.That's my take on it, the rest isunrealistic.BEST Regards, Tom

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from Gman wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I am not quite as old as our esteemed moderator, having attended university in the late, lamented Carter administration. I too attended college at a rather rural outpost, but even then and there, if you were found to be in possession of ANY firearm on campus, you were more or less guaranteed expulsion. Many of us did not take that very seriously, as we were close to good duck and small game shooting. I can name you five guys on one dorm hallway who had a 12-ga in their closets.We also had two guys on our hall who certifiably had mental breakdowns, one rather placid and one rather violent. The chemical interactions of the late-adolescent brain are still being discovered, and I hesitate to make campuses a place where anybody could tuck a 9mm in with his socks, lest one of his buds gets a little loose with the logic after a brewski or three whilst facing getting kicked out of school for deficiencies of one kind or another.Fact is that the vast majority of folks out there, whom I still wouldn't classify as "anti," are not all that comfortable with the idea that encouraging widespread CCW is the best way to fight psycho shootings. But I am also becoming dismayed with the effectiveness of current legislation not doing what it is intended to do.Perhaps if the current background checks were vigorously enforced, with the wholehearted backing of the gun owners' groups, and training was made much more rigorous nationwide, with re-certification necessary every 3-4 years, that would alleviate some of the non-shooters' discomfort.The wild card I would add in here, and might take some heat for, would be to loosen restrictions on CCW on campuses, malls, etc...but to make a hefty liability insurance policy mandatory for anybody who opts to carry. That stipulation might weed out some of the loose screws.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Jim in Mo, FYIDisabled, retired USAF Officer. 13-years in combat units and combat time and staff positions. However, the planes I flew, missiles I targeted are moth- ball'd. USSR is no more, WPC are our allies, nor is SAC in existence. I'm mothball'd along with you.Point: Can't live in the past nor being retired military mean much if a person never developed personal credibility and only depended on institutional rank. If you're a *leader* you'll know what I mean.soap box just broke.

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from KJ wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Allowing college students to carry will provide a deterent of sorts, but will only treat the symptom of the larger problem. When did life become so trivial that a young person would have the audacity to walk onto a campus and start killing? How does a human life become so inconsequential? When we answer that we will begin to address the deeper problem.

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from Kevin wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Bubba,You are correct. We have not been any verbal squabbles. I don't usually put all of my contradicting opinions out there, whether with you or others.I also agree in most situations not to tell folks if you are actually carrying. What I meant about "talking" was that IMO gun owners should softly, politely, and without shame talk about gun ownership more openly and matter of factly. (Yes, there is the risk of thieves overhearing.) Not wanting to sound egotistic, but I have quite a few friends and typically I get along with most folks of various walks in life. I have in the past, not talked about hunting or gun ownership when I thought that I might hurt someone else's feelings, scare them, or risk being disliked. I live in a very "liberal" city. I have many "liberal" friends and contacts. I no longer choose not to speak about hunting or firearms ownership around folks with opposing views. I hope that my social conduct continues to leave a good image in the minds of these friends and contacts. I want them to re-think, as many of them seem to have been raised or persuaded by the media against guns; that gun owners and hunters can be "nice" people too.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

BubbaOur Pal Yoop (with whom I most often agree) was a tad over the top with some of his suggestions! Next he'll want to see pro basketball players deputized to patrol the streets of Miami....! Oh wait that has already happened...!Seriously, big difference between us Citizens legally carrying and being deputized as 'Posse' or shadow cops.SA

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Silver ArrowI agree with you and the 2A about not having to "qualify"!That's the point on which jstreet and I disagreed vehemently. On your side, I disagree to the same degree that there will be shootouts in "The Quad"! Yes, human nature has proven time and time again that people will sometimes do stupid sh**! Meaning there will probably be a shootout in "The Quad" from time to time, but there will be less "shootouts" than "shootings"!And even Yoop had a good idea, just too much like "Big Brother" staring over your shoulder!Bubba

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from John Grunwald wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

What country had confiscated and banned ALL personal held guns? Germany prior to WWII. The citizens could not of protected themselves from Hitler even if they wanted to.

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from Carney wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I say, "Always, always, always be ready to shoot the bad guys!"

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Congratulations to all! Seriously, this thread could have deteriorated into a maelstrom of name calling and bad language. We have seen both sides vigorously defended respectfully!I am still on the conflicted side with Gary. I am a proponent of concealed carry everywhere -- but -- if a state suddenly shifts gears and opens its college campuses to it I do fear the likelihood of a gun-fight on the quad somewhere.On another note there is nothing in the Second Amendment requiring or even allowing a requirement of training or licensure to Keep and Bear Arms (some might call that Infringement - I do). \New Hampshire is a 'Will Issue' state, next door Vermont is a no permit required state -- with among the lowest violent crime in the nation (go figure). No training or qualification is required here to carry.SA

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from Mahonri wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I live in Utah and attend school at the University of Utah. The U of U is probably the most influential group that is trying to get guns banned on school campuses right now. I am a CCW holder and I carry to school and everywhere else I am legally allowed to. If some punk walks into any classroom that I'm in with intentions to massacre a dozen + people, it will cost him his life. The more laws that get passed banning handguns on school campuses and other places, the worse the killing sprees are going to be. It's my right to carry to protect and preserve my life. It's a right that should never be taken away from me.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Glad we are seeing eye to eye! You are definetly a tough debater!Have a good evening and I'm sure we'll meet again on this (or some other forum).Jim

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Well jstreet,I suppose all this was over the "training" thing. I will admit that I was not aware that a CHL could be obtained without the class and range work!In Oklahoma, the class is eight (8) hours. The range is relatively informal and based on everything except accuracy! My instructors statement was, "If you don't shoot me, you will pass!" The only exception to this was the guy that was waving a Walther .380 Auto around like it was a Coke bottle. The instructor, the third time he pointed it at the lady to his left, asked him to look at his gun. He handed the gun to the instructor who immediately slipped the clip, secured the weapon and escorted the gentleman to his vehicle!In Texas, you must qualify (unless it's changed) with at least a .32 caliber. If you qualify with a revolver, you can only carry a revolver. If you qualify with a semi-auto, you can carry revolver OR semi-auto!Oklahoma is the same, EXCEPT, you can qualify with a .22 LR!Bubba

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from ColoradoRanchForSale.com wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

An armed society is a polite society. Lets make it legal in all states to encourage people to be polite

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Kevin,I don't really recall anything that we have disagreed on, but thanks.Now, one of the things that is taught in the Oklahoma CHL class, is "talking" about the firearm you are carrying. It's a no-no. Why? You go to yakking at some anti-gun "nobody" and then they start screaming that Billy "Redneck" "...HAS A GUN! RUN, HE'S GONNA START SHOOTING!!!"If you are carrying concealed, just keep your mouth shut! DO NOT draw your weapon with the intention of "scaring" a would be robber/shooter! "IF" you draw your weapon, USE IT!! The key here is, DO NOT draw your weapon until you have first tried to extricate yourself from the situation. If you are unable to extricate yourself, and you feel your "life" is in "eminent danger" draw your weapon and defend yourself! Period!Bubba

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Bubba quotes:With all that training, how many licensed drivers kill innocent people on a daily basis!?With the training and background checking they go through to obtain a CHL, how many kill innocent people on a daily basis!Bubba,You actually illustrate a good point. Under no duress, people can't even drive cars well. How in the world do you think untrained CCW holders will react in a situation where people are being shot at? All I've said from day one about this is GET YOUR TRAINING and then you should be allowed to carry and protect yourself and others from harms way (unless the property owner, school, church, etc doesn't allow firearms on the property).Bubba Quote 2:The bad guys are the ones busting caps at everything that moves or is lying dead in a pool of blood.The good guys are the ones standing with guns drawn on a prone figure lying in a pool of blood!That shouldn't be too hard to figure out, huh!?Bubba,With all due respect, that's a little too much like a movie script rather than real life. The good guys wear white, the bad guys wear black and the good guys always win in the end. Life isn't like that and never has been.Bubba quote three:No Jim, I'm saying CHL holders "have" taken training as too when and when not to be flashing their guns. They have been to classes and to the range!Now, since they have had training and classroom hours to obtain licensure, why not allow them to carry on a college campus?!Bubba,On this we agree. Get your state required training, understand the risk and liabilities of carrying and if the campus allows, carry all you want.Have a good evening.Jim

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Mark-1,'We' guys aren't scared and you wouldn't be to if you ever been in the military. Maybe we're scared for our kids or grandkids. Get a life and learn how to defend yourself.Screw the rules they have changed.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

John RYour last statement is your best, "...I think there remain a lot of good people out there and we are becoming victims to(of) media hype."Right on!Except!The video games don't make criminals. Parents not caring what their children are doing OR getting involved in their childrens lives is what causes "bad" kids!Liberal's who think that the Gov't "owes" them a living and not wanting to be responsible for their own actions and the actions of their children causes "bad" kids!Bubba

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from Kevin wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I don't comment too often, but I'll side with Bubba (whom I don't typically agree with, though not usually in print) that law-abiding people should not be feared nor prohibited from responsibly transporting or possessing firearms. I'll go further and state that we should begin (as gun owners) to politely and without apology, work into casual conversation the fact that we possess and use firearms. I think that if "non-firearms people" see (openly) that "regular" folks which they interact, work, and socialize with own, use, and hunt with guns they may start to re-think their positions against guns and hunters.I have friends in law enforcement. With that said....anyone that has ever had to call the cops knows that in a "real" and important situation, these honorable folks usually show up way too late!!! America was founded and expanded by self-reliant people. History sadly shows us what types of governments or entities try to restrict the individual's right to freedom and self reliance.I say "GO UTAH"!!!!Kevin

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from John R wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I have to disagree with Mr. Petzal. NO, massacres are NOT becoming as much a part of campus life as projectile vomiting and political correctness.I say this because I am currently researching how many institutions of learning we have in this country; both elementary through high school and universities. I plan to find a ratio between the number of shootings versus the number of schools factored with the total number of students. I would bet early on that a student still has better than a 99% chance of attending 16 years of school without getting shot. School massacres are not quite yet the norm.As far as the causative factors in all the recent shootings, I blame violent video games (e.g. grand theft auto, hitman), violent Hollywood movies (e.g. the Saw series, Hostel, and a host of others), and as the Annie Wilkes character from the novel Misery would say, "a bunch of cockadoodie brats!"When many of us were young, TV series and movies played up honor and the hero image and good always wins (or at least was better). Now, in our "enlightened future" each person can be a law unto him/herself. If somebody dares to challenge your right to be whacko, then you are perfectly justified to whack them. Honestly speaking, I think there remain a lot of good people out there and we are becoming victims to media hype.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Well Yoop,I thought about it a bit more.Nope, we don't need more police. We REALLY don't need "secret" police/militia!We just need simple armed citizens that have been cleared by background check, a concealed carry class explaining the laws and what you can/cannot do and what is expected of you as an armed citizen!Oh, and checked on a range that they can at least use the weapon of their choice!Ask any police officer who they least want shooting at them. That answer is most likely going to be a pissed off woman. She doesn't know anything about guns, she just points and shoots! How do you shoot a handgun! Forget sights, point and shoot!!Bubba

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I can't think of anything more horrifying than a "secret militia" roaming and trolling the streets.This country and culture can afford the rarity of a Combine, but we'll never survive a secret, fascist militia.You guys are running around just as shit-ass scared as the Elite Liberal Intelligentsia

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from LowRecoil wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

All the talk about response teams being confused about who is the nutjob of the day and who is defending the defenseless is unnecessary. If Whackjob Jimmy opens fire, and our schoolboy heroes respond in kind, the whole nightmare will probably be over long before any law enforcement or crisis teams reach the scene. Of course, that's assuming that the schoolboys can hit what they are shooting at.It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of someone who might actually face that situation someday: campus police, local SWAT personnel, etc. I am curious as to what they would prefer- an armed student body, or only one shooter.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Well Wes,If there are armed citizens on campus and a "crazy" starts shooting, by the time a "response team", pun intended, "responds", the bad guy, hopefully, will be the one lying in a growing pool of blood!From all the incidents I been able to read up on, no response team has ever been "responsible" for taking down the "offending" shooter!This is why I don't understand why everybody keeps yakking about all the "untrained" gun toters wandering around a campus causing collateral damage and confusing the "response team"!No response team I've ever read about in a school shooting needed a gun, they needed a medical bag because the shooter was already "down"!Yoop, while I'm not so sure your idea is all that bad, until I do a little more thinking, it kinda smacks of vigilante-ism!Isn't licensed, armed citizens pretty much the same thing!? That is, citizens obtaining concealed carry permits and then carrying concealed weapons, in public whether it be a campus, mall or Luby's cafeteria!?Bubba

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Wes:That's why I want my "posse" radio equipped. I'd hate to see someone being heroic, only to be gunned down by friendly fire! There would need to be some communication so that police would know the situation prior to their entry. I do believe that simply allowing students to carry might create a pandora's box.YooperJack

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from Wes wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I have to agree w/ jstreet on this one. Being on a college campus, I would love to know that I and other responsible, trained individuals were carrying. But if the shooting starts, how are other students and, most esp, the response team, going to know who is who? They see someone w/ a gun, they don't know which side he/her is on.Also, I would not want some of the guys I know to be carrying, even though I know that they would most likely be able to get fully certified, etc. Some people just aren't responsible enough and they're the ones who will cause the accidents, which in time could be worse than murder/suicides.

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from eyeball wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I like it, Yooper. And no, Jason, if some kid wants to commit murderous suicide, that he might encounter another armed student might not stop him from trying. But it might keep the innocent body count down if, after said kook opens fire, he is greeted by appropriate force in return rather than being able to murder the whole football team and cheerleading squad while the campus cops are responding. One or two bodies are a tragedy, but two sure beats forty two.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Most of you have heard this from me before, but the Wendy's incident this morning kind of solidified my thinking.We need that "secret militia". People who have volunteered for extra training by the police and covertly carry in all walks of life. They're needed in schools, colleges, restaurants, hospital and malls. They need some defensive shooting training, badges as deputized law officers and communication devices to talk to the police when they arrive.I like to think of this as a volunteer sherriff's department or a posse.I think this "crazed shooter syndrome" will get worse before it gets better. Ever since the sixties, its been drummed into our heads that little guys get screwed! A fellow gets a bad grade in school, its not his fault, its the system. This attidude is prevelant in our society. Hey, I've had my share of tough breaks but I wake up every day and feel like the luckiest guy in the world.YooperJack

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

jstreet,Mo. requires training. I nor my son refuse to be sheep and follow.As the old saying goes "I'd rather be caught with one than without one'.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

jstreetA gentleman on a different thread mentioned the hoops he had to jump through to get his driver's license!There are expensive classes, classroom hours, and hours behind the wheel with an instructor. This is just to get to the point where the state will even "test" them for a driver's license!With all that training, how many licensed drivers kill innocent people on a daily basis!?With the training and background checking they go through to obtain a CHL, how many kill innocent people on a daily basis!Bubba

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from Trae B. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Well at our school we really aint allowed to have guns anywhere on school property but my principal told me felt safer knowing that most of use have guns any way.So that if somebody brought a weapon to school and started shooting people the good ol' boys could return fire.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

jstreetThe bad guys are the ones busting caps at everything that moves or is lying dead in a pool of blood.The good guys are the ones standing with guns drawn on a prone figure lying in a pool of blood!That shouldn't be too hard to figure out, huh!?Bubba

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

No Jim, I'm saying CHL holders "have" taken training as too when and when not to be flashing their guns. They have been to classes and to the range!Now, since they have had training and classroom hours to obtain licensure, why not allow them to carry on a college campus?!Bubba

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from Wulffy wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Has anyone else noticed that having a CCW/CPL/CHL is a handy way of getting out of speeding tickets (as long as the speed wasn't overly excessive)?

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from bryan wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

So Dave,Did the 00 buckshot to the textbooks give birth to the Ballistic Buffalo or did that come about differently?

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from Wulffy wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Washington State doesn't require a class. Washington, despite how liberal we are, is a shall issue state, meaning that as long as you can pass your background check and wait 30 days, you get a CPL (Concealed Pistol License). Which is kind of backward since, if I understand correctly, we are one of only a couple states that has a waiting period to buy handguns (5 days). However, this waiting period is waived if you have a current CPL (which I have had since age 21).Not requiring a CPL class has made several other states slow to accept Washinton issued CPLs.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

What's your point? Are we both agreeing that CHL/CCW holders should have to take a class?I think CCW is a great thing for the country. My only concerns have ever been, training to be able to handle situations that may arise and how will other ccw holders and/or law enforcement know we are good guys not the bad guys.Jim

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Oh, and jstreet,Oklahoma requires training, Texas requires training.These states make it mandatory that you take a class that explains the ins and outs of their concealed carry permits, which, incidently, are called CHL's in both states. Concealed Handgun License! The class expressly covers when it is appropriate to pull and use said weapon. What conditions must be met to make "lethal force" legal/acceptable! After this training, each student had to go to a range and prove proficiency with their selected firearm! One gentleman in our class was denied a CHL because he couldn't seem to get the idea through his head that he couldn't point the muzzle of his weapon just anywhere. The instructor asked for his weapon, unloaded it and escorted him to his vehicle. I don't know if he ever got a CHL!I don't know of any state that does not require class room and range training before qualifying for a CHL.Bubba

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Oh and Bubba,Utah requires training.4.Weapon Familiarity Certification. Applicants must complete a firearms familiarity course certified by BCI. The course must be completed before you apply for a permit. Please have your instructor complete the certification information on the application. View a list of certified instructors.Jim

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

These school shootings appear the new generation’s trend. I find it significant the student shootings fad started in high schools and now have invaded college campuses as the generation aged. The new youth is killing themselves off in spite of “security” features, counseling, and years of our school officials parroting Mr. Rogers saying, “You’re special.”

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Bubba,I never used the word "extensive". I do think CCW holders can be a huge deterrent to crime and everyone should have the opportunity to carry. BUT, a state training course should be required to get that CCW.When, were, how, why to use that firearm LEGALLY is not something that comes with the firearms owner's manual. The liability and room for error is too large to just say, "Here's a gun, here's your permit, have at it". Would you want untrained police on the streets? Untrained doctors, teachers? Education and training is a GOOD thing for everyone including CCW holders.Jim

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

You're right crm3006!The problem is, they can see the firearm as a cold, bloodless tool that has no feelings! They don't seem to understand or care, that the fingernail file they carry in their purse can be just as deadly.The 10,000 pound automobile that they came to the anti hunting rally has killed more animals and people in the last hundred years than died, oh, say WW II which only lasted five years!More people are killed maliciously with automobiles EVERY year than are killed by firearm!They only see the lowly firearm as an instrument of death!If you rode your rifle to work everyday, it's a necessity and not a problem!Bubba

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from Mike Diehl wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I have to agree entirely with Petzal here. Allowing people who have CCW permits to bear them on campus is an outstanding idea.And yeah, the "rampage" seems to be the new fashionable way that crazies and narcissists now do themselves in. In the good ole days under all that chemical haze or lunacy despair, these people would have quietly shot themselves or swallowed rat poison.But now every one is taught that they are a Victim of Society from an early age. So now when the unsuccessful, desperate, or crazy crack up, instead of checking out on their own, they seek an entourage of their "victimizers."

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from crm3006 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Alas,for those long ago days. I too, carried a gun, or sometimes three, to both high school and college. If one gave it any thought at all, the vehicle without some sort of firearm in either an open gun rack, or in the floor board, or behind the seat, was far more rare than the vehicle with a firearm. We actually used to hold turkey shoots on campus to raise money for various clubs, projects, etc.Of course, this was long before the "enlightened elite" educated us all in political correctness and taught us that the GUN, not the poor,misunderstood,homicidal mainiac weilding the gun, was EVIL.Seems to me it was a better world then, when a college kid could bring a big deer he had shot on campus, and be surrounded with an envious, admiring crowd, and no one critized him for shooting Bambi. He actually got his fifteen minutes of fame without commiting a massacre upon his fellow students, nor did CNN get involved. See how much better off we all are, now that the world is Politically Correct!!

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Hello jstreet,Isn't this what you are all against!?No carrying on campus without extensive training?If they care enough to get a carry permit, allow them to carry on campus, as well as anywhere else!Bubba

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from jack wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

The MSM will be all over this morning's Florida shootings - but - I wonder if they will pick up last night's story in Toledo of a concealed carry permit holder who killed a robber who was pointing a gun in his face.Victim of Robbery Attempt Kills Toledo Man.http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080303/NEWS03/803030386

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from Gary wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

A fact of life is that every choice has both benefits and consequences and this issue is no different.My wife's first cousin is a police officer in a major metropolitan area and he is a member of the task force that responds to situations such as campus shootings. He is very pro gun, but he is conflicted over the issue of allowing guns on campus for a couple of reasons. The main one being that the police cannot let EMTs into a situation until the area is cleared. So in the case of an attack such as the ones that have occured recently, the police would have to block all exits and check for CCW permits and guns before they could get to anyone who happened to be injured,I too find myself conflicted over this issue, as I feel that admitting the only way to secure our schools is at gun point is an extremely sad commentary on the state of our nation.

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from Chris H. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I think it would be something they would consider. These nuts are after a high body count. If the go somewhere that has a much higher potential for thier victims to fire back they would not get the body count they are after. They might also have to share or, hopefully, completely give up the spotlight to the potential victim that ended the attempted shooting spree. If I had to choose between headlines "Gunman foiled by heroic student" or "Gunman kills thirty-two then self" I'll take the first one every time. Of course I'd rather not see either but sometimes reality bites! This is not to say that there would be no one killed in an event like this but I believe that if someone had a gun they would have been able to reduce the number of innocent students killed. This is not a perfect world, why not stack the odds in our favor.

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from Bernie Kuntz wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Your comments are well-put, Dave. Back in the early 1970s I had a shotgun in my closet in my dorm room at the University of North Dakota. I used it to hunt ducks and geese on weekends. If I broke any rules, I don't remember it. Yes, imagine what would happen today if a student tried that. (I liked your end-of-the-year ritual of shooting up onerous textbooks! I wish I had tried that!)After the Virginia Tech massacre there was a big debate here at Montana State University with the predictable stances--the liberal intelligentia on one side, arguing that firearms have no place on a campus, and MY side, claiming that students are mere defenseless, unarmed sheep for any nut who wants to kill innocent people.In my opinion, the Second Amendent does NOT cease to exist at national park boundaries, or at the doors of federal and state buildings, or at the edges of university campuses.

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from Jason wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Yes Dave I agree, I think you make a clear and decisive point that any insane homicidal psychopathic killer would do well to sit down and rationally consider this possibility, during the planning of his mass killing spree.Look it is not set in stone that the right to carry would have stopped one of these guys. It is for sure that these killers are not going to be persuaded by the fact that they might be the only ones armed. I simply suggest regardless it is wrong to pass laws against carrying a gun.

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from Chris H. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I keep saying it! The people that will be carrying guns on campus are the same people carrying guns everywhere else. They are not nut jobs. They are people that have done whatever needed to be done to obtain a conceal and carry permit. These are people carrying guns that you never see until some low life tries to pull you out of your car at an intersection. Then these people unconceal those guns and come stop the low life. Why not give them the same opportunity on college campuses. These people don't get mad and decide to shoot somebody because they cut them off in traffic. I know, I'm one of those people!

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from eyeball wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

As I write this, on FOX a report is going out about a mass shooting at a Wendy's in Florida, a state renowned for its right-to-carry laws (remember the antigunner gambit of a couple of years ago warning foreign visitors to Florida that they were entering a free-fire zone?). Moral; if citizens won't exercise their freedom to be as well- armed as the thugs and terrorists who would prey upon them, mass murder/suicides will go on, even in Utah.

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from Blue Ox wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I don't live very far from NIU, and the sheer amount of pissing and moaning about even more restrictive gun laws is enough to make me puke in my soup. So the friutcake bought- LEGALLY bought some guns, no big deal. Happens every day. Then one day he gets his panties all in a bunch and makes the choice to whack a few students and then off himself. Who knew what dude had planned? But now Mayor Daley and Gov. Blowjobovich want to make even more gun laws, and for what?!Here's another view:I went out and bought a silverado last summer. Nothin' illegal about it. No big deal. Now suppose I went and mowed down a bunch of schoolkids with said pickup truck, then proceeded to drive off a cliff. I bought the truck legally, but who knew what I had planned?Does this mean we need tougher vehicle-purchasing laws? Are the parental units of the children I pancaked gonna sue Chevy for building the truck I used to commit said act? Maybe sue the dealership for selling it to me?Bottom line:More gun laws are not gonna protect ANYONE.You can make the laws as restricive as the day is long, but the truth is that anybody who wants a gun can get one, regardless of the laws. Happens every day.In my humble opinion, I believe that an eight-thousand pound truck is a hell of a lot more deadly than a puny shotgun and a few pistols.But there's no law against buying one, is there?

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from LowRecoil wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I guess the good ol' days are long gone. In my high school parking lot, most of the pickups had a rifle or shotgun perched in the gun rack in the back window. The reason was that many of us would go directly from school to a dove field, or a deer stand or a duck blind. In college, I kept a shotgun and a rifle in my dorm room. When I could catch a break, I would go hunt something. Carrying a gun through the dorm lobby caused no great outcry. That was then.I agree that a student body at least partly made up of concealed-carriers would deter the twisted few who have made headlines lately. Unfortunately, getting a policy implemented to allow that would be both logical and reasonable, and universities are not governed with those qualities in mind.Boards of regents these days are more inclined to bend to public outcry than to make reasoned and rational decisions.One of our small colleges here is known for its gunsmithing program. I can't help but wonder what will happen when the public's hysteria over guns collides with this small rural college. Perhaps the students will just have to sit around and talk about what they would have done if they actually had a gun to work on.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

At the risk of sounding PC I don't agree with all of the statements above. No I don't want to see Utah change its laws, it seems to work for that state.I don't agree that we should be looking for an 'Old West' shoot-out on the campus quad either. I know that is not what you are saying, Dave, but it is the likely scenario at the end of the day. Some one of these punks will take it as a challenge.Until we catch one of these knuckleheads before they start their murderous felonies and pick their brain apart we can only guess at the reasons and the preventative measures which will work. The letters they leave behind may well be written to pander to that 15 minutes of fame you mentioned.SA

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from Concerned_Soldier wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Knock on Wood!!V/RC_S

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 4 weeks ago

Sarg: Wal-mart has the mfgers make the cheapest gun they can. In fact they dictate the price. Remington told me that the ADL is yet made, but only for Wal-mart, I;ve seen the gun and it sure is not the ADL of a few years back. The new 715 and 770 Rem.has brought out, lookes like a tin can was used for material.The 715 and 770 is just the sorry A---- 710 with black stock and they fiddled with the detachable Magazine so you could put in or take out,the old one was almost impossible to do so, plus the bbl was fussed to the action. thats the only difference,plus the metal to syn stock fits like size 12 boot when you wear and size 8. I;ve used Remingon products for 40 ys or more and they have always made good mdse. Glad I got the Rem's 700's I own . The only 2 firearms they (Rem) now makes that look worth a dime is the BDL and CDL, plus the price is near$8- 900.00. I do believe this MArlin will make in-rows to Rems. sales. Maybe that's what they need, a Co who makes a quality gun such as Savage. Hey, I got My New Mexico Disability permit. Now ready to go if draw any of the 4 states I applied. But I still want the KY tag.If prics continue to rise, KY may be only stae I can afford to hunt in now, but the draw will difficult. O well, will hunt someplace if able, if in my back 40 for w-tails.I just enjoy being out side in the wide open spaces, the best make you feel good pill available today. TAke care, chat again.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 4 weeks ago

RockyMtnHunter, got your E-mail about the rifle, Got a Rem. catalog in mail, sure has some nice looking rifles in it, Not what's at Wal-mart...

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 4 weeks ago

As for a Carry permit. Any time you buy a gun froma dealer, the Law will find out about it. So no need o worry about Uncle Sam not knowing you got a CC permit. Buy one, then no problems. A unloaded firearm or locket up in dash is useless if needed. Who has time to unlock the dash or load a gun if needed. All I got to do is pull my Kel-tec out and fire if necessary. The 2nd Adm. does give us the right to own a firearm, but it don;t give you the right to carry in plain view. Most of the cops will take your A-- to jail if they stop you and find a gun loaded in your vehicle.Try hiring a Lawyer for 90 bucks to get you lousy A-- out of jail.More like 500 to lK, then court appearance, etc. Just get the CC permit and don;t have to worry then.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 4 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter: Know the place well, I was there in 2006. Spent 2 nights in town and ate at the Hotel. Loved the place. I had hunted Lopes in WY and drove to Missoula, Mt sigh-seeing and gtime to kill prior to opening season in MT. Beatiful country.Plan to go to MT this fall, if I draw.(think I will as they got l2.400 NR tags and the economy poor). AS a rule I carry 40 rounds of Scirocco l80 gr for the Rem CDL 06 and if Lope hunting carry 20 rounds and thencarry one box for the handgun(50 rounds) for the 44-40. So far, only use one round to dble check 0 and one round to kill my game. Lucky shots I suppose,but do pratice a lot prior and try to have good equiptment for my use.Good glass and weapon. So far, not needed bt one shot for all the game I;ve killed in l2 yrs out west. But now age taking it's affect may not be as good a shot as in past, so more pratice than normal this fall.Do you live in West Va? Got many friends there, we meet at Myrtle Beach,S.C. each summer for 2 weeks. As for ammo, I;ve not found or shot any ammo that performed as well for me as the Scirocco's. The deer i killed last year was at 345 yds quartering to left, one shot and he was down. Bullet entered his last rib on left side about 4-5" belw back bone and exited his right shoulder. large opening and vitals all mussy. Can;t beat that kind of performance, or I can;t. I still believe the Core-lokt's areas good as you can use out to 200 yds, its that extra 1-200 yds that the Scricco;s come into play out west on those sometimes long shots.I learned on my first trip out a rangefinder was a MUST for distance. Those rolling plains and hills and valleys will sure fool your eyes. Being disabled/handicapped, I must make my first shot count, as cannot track a wounded animal in that country. So far has not been necessary, hopefully will continue to shot as well as in past. I do use a Stoney Point Bi-pod for a rest or when not hunting as a cane. Gettin all excied about this fall's trip, ready to go now. But do want to get the New MArlin in 270 before I go, as never shot a 270 and do want to try on Deerafter i kill my Elk. I want the 06 in l80 gr;s untill I kill the Elk then switch to the new Marlin. Will be first time I ever boght a gun sight unseen. Shooting Times had a great article in last months Issue and my Dealer has seen one and he says i will be pleased. I need a Haul about gun for 4 wheeler /pickup here at home. Just another excuse to buy anther gun. Shot-um-straight and often.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 4 weeks ago

I had no problem getting my CC Permit. Took the class and then to Sheriff's office, paid the 90 bucks and in 2 weeks got the permit. Been stopped several times due to tags or inspection stickes expired,and was glad I had the permit. I now travel with a firearm loaded but not chamberd in teh rev. but teh Kel-tec is loaded fully and teh trigger controls the action. So much crime now, I don;t feel comfortable without a firearm.When I stay in a Hotel, my gun is under my Pillow, when got my pants on , got a gun.Kinda makes me feel more confortable knowing I can at least protect myself and wife. When I go west, a gun goes wher-ever I go, PERIOD. Yep, the locals know who has a permit, but thats better than a dopped up thug robber. With the handgun, I can at least level the playing field a tad. Living down south does not excuse you from a gun in your dash or pocket without a CC permit, so rather than pay a Attorney a lot of $ to bail me out, I just spend the $90.00 ever 5 yrs and feel safe. Plus, when I pratice my shooting prior to hunting the Rockies, I pratice with my handguns while the bbl cools on the hunting rifles. So can at least hit a barn door at 25 paces or closer. I ride my 4 wheeler and tractor on the farm, several miles off main drag, and never know who I may encounter trespassing on my property. A handgun/rifle kinda gets their attention and as a rule they stay away therafter. Rather be safe than sorry. Guys, pay the fee, get the permit, then no worries if legal or etc. Some out of state(western) laws permit a carry concealed, but darn few. I bought a rifle in 98 out west, was traveling in my Motor Home, the gun shop, called the local Sheriff to walk with me to the MH to make sure it was stored inside and un-loaded. When I returned home, called the ATF and he said the dealer was a smart A--so was the Sheriff, when he saw I was 2500 miles from home.I immediately got my CC permit. Now no problems when buying a gun out of state. Could be that the LAw don;t like my looks, at 5'8" wt of l28 lbs, I'm, a real threat to a 6' 200 lb cop????????. Plus some Cops just want to show their authority, when they attach that badge and the 9,mm on, they become King-Kong. Or Worse. However, most are understanding, but always that wise Ass. The Old Gunslinger and his CC gun.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

If you're going to legally buy a handgun, there is so much paperwork involved, any law enforcement agency will know that you have it. Why not get the permit? Also, if some cop had it out for you, he could probably pull you over, initiate a search on some type of reason, find your piece, then your busted. Get the permit.YooperJack

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

We are having our office remodeled and adding a lab. One of the carpenters that we know carries cancelled all the time, and we don’t have no problem with that. Day before yesterday, he showed me his new poodle shooter 9mm auto. His boss that is one of our best friends, go’s to our church and just happens to be his father in law chuckled and said, Clay show him what you carry. I whipped out my Springfield 45XD from nowhere loaded with 230 grain Black Talons, turned around pointing it in a safe direction dropped the 13 round mag and chambered round the handed it to him. Clay, where do you carry that cannon!Yes, in our office, we do allow CWP on our grounds. We don’t advertise that one of us does carry concealed.A robber with a shotgun stormed into a Sheriff’s Posse Captains Business to rob it unknowing that there was a Posse meeting in progress in the back room. The Captains 45 ACP made short work of him! This reminds me of robbers going into a Dunkens donut shop to rob it. Here’s your sign!

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

SargWe have it the same here in New Hampshire; Open carry is OK no permit needed BUT getting into a vehicle with a holstered sidearm is called concealed by lots of the boys in blue. Conservation officer clued me in on that one a few years back. Said "Get your permit then you have nothing to worry about!" So far I haven't gone up to get it, only carry when I hunt and unload the revolver before I get into my truck but I am seriously thinking about getting the card now. If we had a class like you all do I sure would go for it, that way if an incident did happen and I followed what was taught in the class I have another layer of defense.SA

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Rocky Mtn Hunter:There are limitations concerning outdoor dogs. This happened to an old friend of mine in Mississippi not once but twice. The first time his two 100 plus pound German Shepards did not meet him at the gate in the fence which surrounds his 100 acres he knew something was wrong. These dogs were such that only he could touch or control them. Unfortunately a .22 LR in the head of each animal allowed the thieves to enter Charlie's home in his absence. A Liberty safe saved the day so far as his guns were concerned although the criminals did try to pry it open. About 8 years later he had a beautiful pair of well trained Rottweilers. Same thing happened again. Nowadays Charlie keeps one Rott in the house and hopes for the best when he is not at home. At least he is alerted if someone tries to enter the dwelling. Charlie is now 93 and not high tech oriented so electronic surveilance and security devices are not an option for him and his wife. By the way he deer hunted until he was 91 and managed to kill a couple bucks and a few does each year. He mainly quit because his wife's vision started failing her. He is one of the greatest hunters and gentlemen that you could ever meet and know.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Where live if you have handgun gun,you better have it visible if stopped by the law.You can walk down main street with a gun visible, but put it in your pocket and big trouble. I carried a handgun fr 40+ years and no permit, but got to point I was afraid not togeta Carry Permit.Now I don;t have to worry and can keep the litte Kel-tec or Rossie 7 shot 22LR or the big gun in a shoulder holster. Most of us southrn guys who own a pckup have carried a long gun on a window rack or behind the seat which is ok unless one in the chamber.I just did not want the hassell and looker-ons when I carried a gun on my side. AS stated earlie not a trouble maker, and do;tlook for it, but I want to be prepared in case I'm a target for a robbery.Too old to run and too old to fight the buggers.With the gun in my pocket I feel kinda level the playing field.Just too may killings near me and one never knows now whom to trust My Outdoor dog died last year and I;m looking for a replacement as soon as can find another German Sheppard.With one of them around, I feel the home is safe day and night.An especally when I;m gone hunting.Take care guys, shot-um-straight and often. Burn up some powder.The Old Southern Gunslinger

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from sarg wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

You guys are talking about carring conceiled, when I carry i carry in open, In Ky. it is not conceiled in glove box as long as it is locked or unloaded...

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

sarg,Why pay a lawyer a couple grand or more to explain your 'rights' to a judge? I'm a hard headed German and I'm smart enough to know not to fight this fight.Choose your battles friend.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Sarge:Its been a long time ago but I remember debates on whether to get the permit or not. It seems to me, if you had a pistol in your glovebox, or otherwise concealed, and you were pulled over, and the police had some reason to search, if found, you would be guilty of a felony.As such, you would need a screw loose not to get one. A felony conviction would mess up your life in ways we can't imagine. I want to buy a pistol. If I do, I'll certainly get the concealed carry permit.YooperJack

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from sarg wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

That's the main reason I don't get the permit, Dr.Ralph.... I already have the right to carry, why pay to do so.. you pay to do it, they can stop it... I don,t hid my gun, but use common sense, don't carry at bars, banks, lower ed. schools etc... By the way , just git back from your country, May go back before the tourist season starts. Get's pretty crowded during hot weather down there.... we love going down.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Don't do it sarg... the constitution gives you the right to keep and BEAR arms. It's just another form of registration and big brother breaking the law to harass honest citizens. In the South cops aren't really uptight about you having a gun, but I wouldn't try it on either coast or any major city. Rural areas you can just tell them you're hunting coyotes...

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from Richard Smith wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Being a resident of Utah, and a teacher at one of its institutions of higher education, I can tell you that it was a struggle to get things to be the way they are. The president of the University of Utah was very anti-gun and fought every step of the way, trying to be a law unto himself. But, on this one, as on very few other things, our legislators and attorney general saw reason and fought on the side of freedom and right. I give a lot of credit to our campus police, too. For cops, they are pretty good guys.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Sarg: get a cary permit immediately. Some smart Assed cop stop you and that gun is not viewable he will charge you. The rest is simple, cost 90 bucks her for a 5 yr permit. I feel as if I'm not breaking the law now. HAve always carried a gun, but was always in glove compartment. Now it'sin my pocket. I love the dble action Kel-tec 380 as all got to do is pull the trigger. No safety latch or hammer to pull back, just pull the trigger is all you got to do. With the JOHN Q PUBLIC as dumb as it is now, never know when you gonna need on. A breakdown or stop at traffic light is great place to be hi-jacked. Whne the may-be robber sees that bbl pointd at him, he will think twice. AS the old expression goes, never leave home without it. To me thats a gun.Not looking for trouble and do not go where trouble may be, but the road jocks now looking for a freebi.At 73 yrs old, I sure can;t out run them. The 380 may not be a large weapon, but will serve my purpose.When I think its necesary, will carry my 357 or 44-40 in the shoulder holster providing I'm wearing a jacket, otherwise the 380 in my pocket. Get that permit now and then no worry with cops.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

sarg,Do it!

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from sarg wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Well, here where I live, there,s no need tocarry. Its pretty quiet community.. When I travel I may carry or fishing I,ll carry if I,m by myself. If I go walking in the woods I carry something, mostly for snakes. I don,t go to bars or fool around with drunks.. Even with a permitt you can't carry in a resturant that sells drinks.I don't have a permitt to carry, If I want to carry, I carry. They offered to let me have a permitt cheaper because of being Retire Army. They give the class about every Saturday but I don't know...

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Rky Mtn Hunter,Know what you mean man. In my car I carry Smith M60 357, at bedside .40 smith. But late afternoons in summer no concealment I put a Kel-Tec .32 in handkerchef pocket. No its not big enough but I ain't looking for a fight so I move on if theres a problem, if someone continues and runs up to me or their dog a 32 in the forhead will help me get home.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

ishawooa: As a rule, I carry a Kel-tec in 380. Weight is 9 oz, (yep, a true 9 oz) don;t even know its there. It's dble action and the trigger controls the enclosed firing pin and sear. Sometimes, depends on weather, I will carry a 357 mag if wearing a coat and the 357 is in a shoulder holster. I also have very small 22Rev. holds 7 rounds,l always empty, its a litle gun and cannot tell it's in your pocket. What I carry all depends on where I;m going and the weather. But, never without a gun in my pocket, other than places that have a metal det. I pay no attention to those circles with a pistol showing. But, the 380 Kelec is my choice as a rule it's 99% Polymer material ,light wt and dble action. Just pull out and pull the trigger. SAving my 44-40 for the wilds of Montana. PLus always a handgun in my vehicles I drive, and a 4 cell flashlight. Have thought of being broke down on highway at night and a bunch of doped up thugs want my little $ or vehicle. We must protect ourselves now.It took some carrying to get use to a gun in pocket all the time. Now its just auto that is in my right front pocket, as I wear pleated pants and does not show I;m packing a gun. But to each his on, what you feel comfortble with and can shoot well. Again best to pratice handgun shooting as well as rifle's for hunting.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

WA Mtn hunter, to take the sap out of three guys, Shoot the biggest,meanest first. and yes, the 38 spl is superior to the .380.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Naw, don't need no stinkin' high cap autoloader. A double tap with a .357 Smith wheelgun will take the fight out of anyone. I guess if you have more than 3 perps attacking you simultaneously, you might need a high cap. I think even a .38 SPL +P is superior to any .380. JMHO.

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from Scott in Ohio wrote 6 years 5 weeks ago

Ishawooa and Sarg,Currently looking at a .380 in Bereta M-85 (single stack mag) or the Browning .380 (made by Beretta). Haven't really considered the PPK. I was leaning towards the Beretta for the thinner profile even though it has only 7 rounds instead of the 12 provided by the larger capacity Browning or the double stack model Beretta M-84.Anyone want to weigh in with an opinion for the need of a high capacity mag weapon used for conceiled carry. Anyone ever seen an article that reviewed or studied the need for that many rounds (i.e 8+) fired when they really needed it for a personal defense assault.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Well sort of an oops on my last post; apparently the students at Nebraska had some sort of 'toy' airguns. The school's reaction is not surprising; 'Ban them all!'SA

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from Scott in Ohio wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Check out this article in New York Times about allowing hunter education classes in all schools in WV.http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/08/us/08hunting.html?ex=1205643600&en=c6d9f57d9e9f351d&ei=5070&emc=eta1

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Ishawooa, I'd say your ppk would outbook mine today. They don't lose their value.. I don't have any large pistols right now, got a S/W ss 32 kit gun mod 63 I carry fishing and my old High Standard HB (1942), That all pistols I have.I sold my 9MM a while back. I like the 9MM but love to hear the .45 auto shooting. Unlike the Browning, the H/S has a hammer. They made a Model "B" then they made the "H-B"I wont reblue it because it would lessen the value.

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Sarg:The PPKS probably is the best choice but you are one up on me anyway with the SS. The blueing on my 60+ year old pistol is wearing thin and I am thinking of having it reworked. I also have a Browning which I like to shoot but don't feel as comfortable with due to the lack of an external hammer. It points fairly good and esthetically is pleasing. Of course most folks now buy a 3 inch 1911 in .45 or some sort of DAO .40 or 9 mm for a pocket pistol so I guess we are out of style.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

georgia docIt wasn't that long ago, where I went to school, the high schoolers WERE armed. Especially during any game season. Some of the guys were from farming families and carried rifles or shotguns for eliminating deer from peanut/watermelon fields or coyotes from cow herds and believe it or not, coyotes are hard on watermelons also! I don't know why, but they love the blooms, ergo: no melons!Guys that catfished quite a bit carried .22 handguns in their vehicles! It wasn't unheard of for several of us to bring our guns and dove hunt after football practice!Not one single incident! Ever! It is possible to arm high schoolers without incident, but you gotta start earlier in life!Bubba

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Ishawooa, I carry a Walther ppk also in .380. Love the little fellow. Mine is SS. I realy like the ppks better, One more round.

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from georgia doc wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

To BubbaSurely, if it were simply a measure of numbers, I would prefer that fewer are harmed every time! As for whining or work... I work plenty and a charge of whining can only be refuted by, well, whining. I suppose my first point could be understood as a whine. I guess my deeper intent was to say, human beings got where they are by their brains, not their brawn. Please see T.rex for further proof. Prevention is a far better method of action than correction.To Jim in Mo.No I have never worked in a MASH unit. If you are implying that I would think it out place to have a gun in a hospital you would be wrong. I think they are right at home there.To Sum UpI see a sanctity in Churches and Universities that should be unhindered by the possesion of weapons. Free expression can only occur when one is not afraid they will be killed or harmed for their opinion, A great reason why weapons are not allowed at political rallies. Carry everywhere else; I do.At any rate we are talking about 18,19,20 year olds. A few decades ago, sure. Today, would you arm high schoolers? How about middle schoolers? A college student is only 5 years older than a middle schooler. In this day that amounts to about nil in experience.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I guess a lot of the students at Nebraska agree with the 'carry on' side of this post! Based on a news flash I just caught; police responded to the university there for a masked man with a gun and found many students were also armed. HmmmmmSA

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from ishawooa wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Mark-1: Off subject but hopefully of interest,A friend of mine claimed to have seen a bigfoot here in Park County, Wyoming near one of the sightings reported on the website your so kindly provided. The highway to Yellowstone was being reworked at that time and there were lots of traffic holdups. People sat for 20-30 minutes in line and looked up the mountainside. Quite a few people say they saw the animal at various times that summer. I, on the other hand, have ridden horses all over that country and can't even find a track. Also two tourists stated that they hear it scream. Sounded so much like a woman in distress that they felt obligated to walk up the hill to see if someone was there but found nothing.Rocky Mtn Hunter:What is your flavor in .380? I pack an old Walther PP that my uncle brought back from Europe following WWII. Not effective like my 1911s but it sure is better than knuckles or a stick plus it fits my hand perfectly for instinctive shooting.Odd that someone mentioned Huglu shotguns as my shooting friend Dave emailed me today that he just bought one in Globe, AZ this morning. He will take it to the trap range tomorrow so by this time tomorrow night we will have a in-depth, detailed, no stone left unturned report. Plus he probably will outshoot the Perazzi guys using one hand just to pixx them off.

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from Rocky Mtn Hunter wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

If I have my pants on I got my 380, if not wearing pants, a 357 is at arms reach.Every vehicle I drive has at least 2 firearms someplace. We got to take care of ourselves these days. Not enough caring cops to protect us today. Our country has gone crazy, never a night on TV that some Idiot has not killed someone. I instructed my Daughter, Grandaughters, who now and then have to be out at night how to shoot a handgun and to have it beside them while driving.( and they shoot straight as well) It has become a sad day when we afraid to be out at night or on a lonely highway in the day time. Get a carry permit, learn how to shoot a handgun and protect yourself. A dog is fine at home, but a handgun is also perfect when away from home. Forget the signs on store doors(no firearms allowed) mine is in my pocket, weighs 9 oz and will go thru a metal detector easily. Shoot-um-straight and pratice much.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

P.S.,I meant to include that this age group of university 'youths' are grad. students working on their msters or Phd's. Way beyond binge drinking frat house kids.The church goers are young marrieds' hoping for a good family life.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

georgia doc,I take it you never worked in a MASH unit?In Mo. a person must be 21 (perhaps 23) to carry concealed(with proper training). I'll gladly have that lady or man next to me in church or my next continueing ed. class.

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from crm3006 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Dr. Ralph and Bubba,Well stated, and Amen. I think we can put this one to bed,because neither sarge nor the Georgia doc are ever going to get it.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

georgia docWould you rather patch up three or four folks and pronounce one DOA, or pronounce thirty three DOA and write "self inflicted gun shot wound" on one of the death certificates!?Certainly there's going to be some out there that just can't do the "right" thing, and you're either going to have to patch them up, whether it's a "gsw" or not, or get out of the medical profession!So quit whining or get to work!Bubba

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

If I had an appetite for destruction I would be trying to take away every one's right to defend themselves...

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from georgia doc wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Gentlemen,Please allow me to preface my statement that I am all for concealed weapons and their use but I have three thoughts I would like to add to this discussion.When you draw and use your weapons, there will be blood. Then it becomes some sap's (mine)responsibility to resuscitate or proclaim death. My point is however "legal" or "right" you are, when you uncloak that pistol chances of death occurring (including yours) rise dramatically.Second, those of you who have attended a University should know better. There are two places where weapons should never be allowed: churches and universities. Considering their history(ideally anyway), both have been places of Sanctuary and Freedom of thought. In no way can you achieve either when there are weapons in place. Anything used to protect can be subverted to destroy. Please see Alfred Nobel's sickening discovery of this principle. No doubt this places both at risk for atrocities. However, weapons take just as much freedom as they give.Third, all of you who have responded saying "when I was in school we carried guns," have effectively proven why this can not be the case now. My generation X and the current one are entirely different than any of you who finished schooling in the 60s,70s or even 80s. As a prior opinioner accurately stated, we are self absorbed, irrational, entitled, celebrity worshipers. Why, WHY would you give carry rights to today's students? Many of us can hardly drive, and would not have the attention span to read this post. Have an appetite for destruction? Give a powerful tool to today's youth.

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I just saw a hunt on the outdoor channel in Colorado and the host said he had that hair on the back of the neck thing going on, figured a big bear was nearby so they checked the 25 trail cams and came up with eight frames of something walking upright with huge hairy arms and nobody had the gonads to even guess what it was...

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

It seems that everyone is looking at the crazies with this guns in my pocket ,killing 35 people thing. the reason guns are not permitted here, it's the guys who are normaly sane, but gets drunk or looses a lot of money that gets mad. or after a fight as we all know young people do, that wind up killing the other or just simply, to get even... Pardon my poorly worded muddle. Been on many bases where gun are turned at gate until you depart. I've even denied permission to carry personal firearms overseas.Don't get caught with a weapon in your barracks or auto at Ft. Knox...you,ll probable spend the rest of your tour in strips. I carry a lot, have carried at work, but the rules just wasn't enforced.. But not in dorm rooms.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Maybe Ol' Elmer did the shoot, shovel, and shut up thing over in Ideeho.That's why they have been no confirmed sightings.....lately

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from LowRecoil wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Notice how I cleverly segue this thread to another Gun Nut topic, thus ensuring the Circle of Life:Gee, I hope those of you going out after Bigfoot have the good sense to use a .338. Elmer Keith was a big proponent of using the .338 on Bigfeet. (Okay, maybe he never wrote that, but he would've if he had thought of it.)

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

crm3006In Seattle area now. At LZ English and Ahn Khe 70-71! Co C, 2/503rd Inf ABN and later MACV Tm 26 and 33.Your puppies rocked!

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from crm3006 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter:I am currently in Bacliff, TX. Was stationed on English in 70-71 with the 39th IPSD, attached to the Engineer Battalion.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

crm3006Where are you Bro? When were you in the 173rd? Which Batt?

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from crm3006 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Sarge,Thanks for another poorly worded muddle. Don't know what posts you have been on, but I was constantly armed on LZ English RVN, and have been known to be armed on Ft. Benning, GA, Ft. Polk, LA, Ft. Sill, OK. and the list goes on. Oh, and did you overlook the MPs? Last I knew, they mostly went armed.As to erudite Okies, I thought that was just a natural condition,probably honed and stoned a bit from being an alumnus of MIT.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Bigfoot????Here's a link for latest Bigfoot news. Sorta interesting to keep up-to-date on what's going on in the wilds.http://www.bfro.net/

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from Jack Ryan wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

"THE POLICE GET THERE AFTER THE FACT."Exactly. The people should be carrying the guns and give the police clip boards and a mop.

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from LowRecoil wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Chad Love:I will certainly check out the Bigfoot piece. I may have already read it; I read Oklahoma Today often. Incidentally, you just KNOW that all the non-natives are pronouncing Honobia "Ho-no-bee-uh".These posts, in fact, are emanating from Push County. If you checked out the Outdoor page in last Sunday's Oklahoman, you'll note that two potential state record whitetails came from here during the 2007 season. I didn't notice them while I was hunting.

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from Chad Love wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Low Recoil,Off blog-topic but if you want the definitive account of Bigfoot in Oklahoma, then check out the September/October 2005 issue of Oklahoma Today magazine.In it there is an absolutely first-rate piece penned by a writer of unusual talent and insight who fearlessly pursued Bigfoot all over southeastern Oklahoma, from Honobia to Idabel.However, most of this extraordinarily gifted writer's research and exploration centered along the Zone II area of the Lower Mountain Fork river, because everybody knows that where you find big rainbows you will also find big foots.I'm sure you can find a copy in the stacks at your local library. I highly recommend it over that ridiculous Travel Channel "documentary" that used to air incessantly around Halloween.I live out on the plains now but my family hails from all over Pushmataha County.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

The only way an Okie can achieve erudition is by innoculation!Bubba

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from LowRecoil wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Bubba: I live in Southeastern Oklahoma, surrounded by deer, turkeys and the occasional Bigfoot (if the Travel Channel is to be believed).ChadLove: I have always lived under the impression that erudition is inocculated at birth in Oklahoma hospitals.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

crm3006, there's another place you don;t walk around with a weapon, aUSMC camp or army post. air base, ETC.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Chad LoveI resemble that remark!!Bubba

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from Chad Love wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I will say the closest I've ever come to a campus shooting was the night I got trapped for three hours inside Dale Hall Tower while the University of Oklahoma police department, the Norman police department, the Oklahoma Highway Patrol and for all I know the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, Delta Force and Walker, Texas Ranger searched frantically for a "man with a gun" that turned out to be a history prof who thought it'd be neat to show his Civil War history class a period firearm.

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from Chad Love wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Damn there are a lot of erudite Okies on this blog...

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Low Recoil, Midnight Banjo, can't remember the other guy. How many Okies are around? I'm a Tex/Okie? Texan by birth/Okie by marriage!MidBan, you're from the Tulsa area, correct? Where you near Low Recoil?BTW Low Recoil, they also introduced legislation to allow concealed carry on "public" university campus's! (campusi?)Bubba

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from MidnightBanjo wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

My friend did a re-blue job on an old .22 and I refinished the stock - it's never looked better!

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from LowRecoil wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

MidnightBanjo: Yep, Murray State College. Or, as the students refer to it: MIT (Murray, In Tishomingo). Saw a Model 94 a student did there as a school project. Nickel finish, wood with more figure than Dolly Parton and an octagonal barrel. Quite a piece.

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from Trae B. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Well I was thinking about it and now I have a different view.I know a few people that if they were fighting and had the chance they would shoot.I believe in pure,clean fist-fights.And I know a 8 year old kid who pulled a knife on me because he wanted my doughnut and i diddent give to him,me and my buddy got the knife from him.And he got into alot of trouble because it was his deddy's knife.he had allright parents but he was very bad tempered.So if a little kid will try to kill ya I know some people my age will.

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from MidnightBanjo wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Low Recoil - Good to see another Okie on here! Was that school you referred to earlier in Tisamingo? I have a buddy that graduated from their gun smithing program.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I know a young man who is a prison guard here at Sandy Hook, Ky... He cannot carry a weapon on duty or even a nightstick. He has to go in with nothing but a radio ,amoung the prisnors and breack up fights . Now if he had a gun it could be used against him. There are time and places where a gun just does not belong. Prisons, and University dorm room are two, I'msure there are others, not intending to take anyone rights. they just don't belong...

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

When I hear about an organization that "doesn't allow concealed carry," I ask myself, "Why allow a bunch of misinformed nitwits to deprive you of a God-given right?" In the final analysis, it's none of their business. If you carry concealed, the only person who should know it is you. If this sounds like a call to lawlessness, you've got the wrong idea. The people who are trying to deprive you of your rights are the lawless ones. Listen, folks--the government doesn't give you rights. The Constitution doesn't give you rights. What legitimate governments and constitutions are supposed to do is recognize the rights you possess by virtue of being a human being, and protect those rights. In this day and time, if I were a student or faculty member--and I've been both--I'd sure have a firearm within reach. And I would never, ever tell a soul about what I had or where it was. States have state secrets, and individuals can have individual secrets! You have to assess risks and weigh them against the legal problems you will run into if you are found to have a weapon, but you must remember that the people who make these rules against weapons won't be there when somebody starts shooting at you. By the way, you don't have to allow police to search you at a traffic stop, because the police aren't going to find any more evidence that you were speeding or ran a stop sign by looking inside your vehicle. You can and should refuse a warrantless vehicle search--it also prevents drugs from being planted inside your car. If your state offers a CCW license, by all means get one. But if you let some left-wing politico leave you vulnerable to attack, it's your fault. You can bet your bottom dollar that even the left-wing politicos, like Diane Feinstein, believe in having weapons for themselves even while they're denying your right to have a weapon for yourself! I guess they'll come after me now!

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from LowRecoil wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Somewhat relative: In my home state (Oklahoma), a bill is under consideration that would reduce the minimum age for a concealed carry permit to 18. The author of the bill said that if 18-year-olds were old enough to serve in the armed forces, they should be old enough to carry concealed weapons. Also: "In my district, by that age, most of them already have 16 years of experience."

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from Shotgunlou wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Hey all! Check this out. This is a link to the article in the Arizona Republic about the legislation in the senate re. guns on campus. At the bottom of the article is a link to the reporters email, Scott Wong. Please email him with your support for this billhttp://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0226guns0226.html

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from crm3006 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Sorry, Sarge,just caught the Kentucky location. Still North of I-10, and a Yankee thang.

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from crm3006 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Sarge,If I read your garbled mishmash correctly, you are bemoaning the fact that the school you worked athas admitted a tribe of Vandals.Sounds to me as if they could use some plain old fasioned disipline,applied with a mesquite wood stick! Or at least some retro-active back charges for damages to the parents who raised such hoodlums. Too bad that they abolished the draft, it has made amany a bad boy go good. One other comment, if you have raised a 20 year old that is so irresponsible you won't trust him with your truck, could it be that you need to take a long look at yourself in a mirror? Nor did you read my comment in it's entirety, and I quote:"As long as that person is of sound mind, not a convicted felon, nor a danger to himself or others...." Obviously, these young men? are not of sound mind, or at least not thinking rationally. Points to a lack of proper upbringing, probably in a very, very PC environment. I sympathize with your problem, but in my years in a Committe Group (TNG), we dealt with more than a few of this sort, and put the vast majority of them on the path to righteousness. I understand that the USMC is also noted for this. Goes back to that old "Responsible behavior starts with being given responsibility." Quoting another passage you either failed to read or understand. You did not give your location, but I can only conclude it must be a Yankee thing. Again, you have my sympathy.

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from Dale M wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

"And then, when the smoke clears, the media will descend, giving him his 15 minutes of fame, rolling around in the sorrow and suffering like a dog digging its shoulder into a dungheap."MAN DP!!! You nailed it with that rolling around in it like a dog comment!

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from Tyrel wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I made a comment in my university class in Utah about guns and hunting being part of my childhood and even then profesor acted like I was crazy. Unfortunately, I go to a private school that still won't allow concealed carry, but I was glad to read this article and see that there still are reasonable people in the world.

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from Zermoid wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I graduated HS in 1980, and we had a few guys who brought in a shotgun to go hunting after school on occasion, it wasn't a big deal then either. Do that nowdays and you'd probably have a SWAT team at the school in minutes. What's wrong with people? I don't know, but often wonder if Requiring people to own guns and carry same would help, if someone thinking of wrong doing KNEW that half or better of the people there were carrying I think you'd see a big drop in crime, if for no other reason than most of the nut jobs would be dead in short order.

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from Michael wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Have to get in this anyway. One thing that most everyone misses in debating the concealed carry vs. police protecting the citizens argument is the uncontested, unchallengeable fact that the ONLY people at the scene of a crime are the perpetrators and the victims. THE POLICE GET THERE AFTER THE FACT. I would rather carry a weapon than chance a law officer being close enough to help me.

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from Chad Love wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

There's not much I can add to the debate except this: hug your kids whenever you get a chance, because life is so damn random it might be your last.I was reading a wire story this morning about the Florida Wendy's shooting and I was struck by a passage that described how one of the victims had gone back into the Wendy's to exchange the toy in his child's meal.His family was waiting for him in the parking lot when he was shot and killed.Something as trivial as a worker dropping the wrong toy in a bag set in motion a chain of events that led to a horrible tragedy for this family.We live in strange and unsettled times, guys. I'm not a doomer or anything but sometimes I look around and I see so many profoundly unhappy, deeply troubled and emotionally detached people that I can't help but think that our culture is on some fundamental level completely broken and dysfunctional.I certainly don't have the answers to whether it's a good idea to allow college students to carry on campus, but I do know the fact that the question is even being raised speaks volumes to how troubled our society is.In the face of so much insanity, all I know how to do is hug my kids, protect them as best I can and hope like hell that somehow the world they'll someday raise their kids in will start making sense again.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

My apologies,I know that Okla. and Tex. require that you attend an 8 hour class and shoot at a range to acquire a CHL.I agree that they are charging a fee for a "constitutional" right, and I won't argue that point.I am glad that there are some states left that recognize the 2A!Bubba

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Unless the law's changed New York has never in 70-years+ required "training" prior to issuing a concealed carry permit. In fact, State sport groups have fought that notion.

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from Jack Ryan wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

"I don't know of any state that does not require class room and range training before qualifying for a CHL.Bubba"They you obviously still have things left to learn. We do not require you satisfy some beaurocrat's idea of training prior to exercising your constitutional right in Indiana. They have managed to institute a FEE for some of those "rights".

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from Terrance Mahoney wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Sad but true those days are gone.I carried my shot gun in a soft case many times on the school bus,with ammo and hunting clothes in a duffel bag to high school so I could go with the principle and a few of the teachers to hunt ducks on the river behind the school after the bell rang. For what it's worth I learned more on those outings to prepare me to succede in life than I did in four years of high school and four more in college.Take a kid hunting every chance you get,would do more good than you can imagine.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Oh Mocki,You ain't seen nothing yet. Storm just past thru St. Louis area got inch or more an hour for 7 hr. hi-way 70 down.

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from Mock1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Scott in Ohio.Vito's baby! We just opened in Holland Oh. Ont the northeast corner of Mccord and Angols, across from the Kroger Store. Ask for the owner Mike, that's me, and if I'm not there, tell em I said I'm good for a free pie. I'll call up there right now and have them put scott in ohio in the computer to give you one free specialty pizza for takout. We are bldng o new one inSwanton in 6 mos.

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from Mock1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Scott in Ohio,Cmon man, Toledo is almost too little to have suburbs!! I live in Sugar Ridge Oh., about 5 miles north of BG. out in the sticks. How are you liking this weather tonight? I've seen 75 at a standstill twice tonight. Hunker down!

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

CRM3006, Do you think people who go's through a dorm. on the weekend and tear every water cooler off the wall, breaks out the windows of several dorm rooms punch holes in the cieling tiles in a complete 16 floor dormatory have the intelligence to have a handgun in their room.. I may be old fashon, but these people are indeed suppose to be responsible adults. do they show responsibility to piss in the fan coil units and then call maintance to repair them.. I know ,I was the maint. man sent to these rooms.. should this person have a hand gun in their room?. I'm not against gun ownership, I sure don't believe in gun reg. but if my child,(well not a child at 20),ibelive I'd make some corrections. If he is not responsible does he drive my new truck, not hardly... I know that there are many students who does not uphold this type actions, I personally knew 75% of the students here and most of their parents.

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from Scott in Ohio wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Mock1What is the name of your Pizza chain? I'll have to drop by to get a pie.

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from Scott in Ohio wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Back in the early 1990s I lived near Philadelphia, PA. Did anyone here ever used to listen to the "Grease Man" on the radio?As I recall he was very pro-gun and funny too.Mock1 and Jack - I live in a suburb of Toledo, OH. Glad to see some folks from near-by on the blog.

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from Trae B. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

By the way I was the one complaining about how hard it is to get a drivers lincense as Bubba mentioned above.

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from Mock1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

crm3006,Right on! I got shitfaced all during HS. We threw beer bottles in the air to try shoot them w/ all sorts of firearms at bonfire parties. The cops would show up and shoot w/ us, using our guns of course. This was in 82. I had a pistol hanging off my truck gun rack w/ the door unlocked and never had it stolen. We never had an accidental shooting those 4 yrs. We were kids blowing off steam. I own a couple pizza stores in Toledo, Oh now and was at a meeting w/ springfield HS in Holland Ohio to set up a pizza program w/ them. I remarked how it was not hard to find a parking space for the meeting. the principle told me it was because not many kids drive anymore. Two seniors who work for me don't drive yet. I graduated from Evergreen HS in Evergreen Colo. and you couldn't find a parking space. The average 18 yr old acts like a 14 yr old now. My point is that the more responsibility we take from these kids nowdays, the less responsible these kids are going to be. Teach them the way we were taught. You may have some accidents, but that is how a real society learns, from the mistakes of others. I can't remember, but isn't that called the strong survive and the weak will not? I know that sounds cold hearted, but that, my friends, is life. We are like the proverbial buffalo herd, the wolves are out there to prey on the old, the, young, the sick, the weak, and yes, the stupid.

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from Michael wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Jeez, by the time I read all the postings I was too damn tired to vent my feelings. Score one again for Petzal.

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from crm3006 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I agree with Charles Burkland, this country is going to HELL in a handbasket. Not only because of recent Supreme Court decisions, which are wacky to say the least, but also because of comments like the above " I've seen how "s&%t faced some of these kids get nowdays and really don't believe guns should be permitted in dorm rooms, we never had a problem here at school,but the kids do get wild on Sat. Night." and "not to have employee carry guns in their cars." C'mon, Sarge, these are YOUR Second Amendment Rights, being whittled away little by little, and not by law, but by fiat of employers, and campus ivory tower types. This is not law, just a rule, that if somebody had the nuts and guts to stand up and say "You people cannot override the Law of the Land, which is the Constitution Of These United States", would probly be unenforciable!! BUT, God help us all, we have come to depend on others to protect us, and we bend to easily before the rules of petty tyrants. Why should anyone need permission from any orginization to be legally armed? As long as that person is of sound mind, not a convicted felon, nor a danger to himself or others, no one and by this I include college age students, should be permitted to forbid them arms! Time was, not so long ago, that we drafted these young men and sent them off to fight wars. And now, they are so drunken on Saturday night we cannot allow them to possess a firearm? Responsible behavior starts with being given responsibility. The slippery slope to total subjugation by a relentless politicaly correct society starts with giving up a few rights, such as not being allowed to posess a legal weapon in a public parking lot. By your way of thinking, and what with the current danger of having either Hitlery of B. Husain Osamma in the White House, maybe we should all just practice up our checker game and get ready to sit on the porch. The Guv'ment will Protect Us.

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from Charles Burklund wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

you can't legislate morality or ethics..."Because just as good morals, if they are to be maintained, have need of the laws, so the laws, if they are to be observed, have need of good morals."Niccolo MachiavelliConsidering many of the Supreme Court's recent decisions, anyone got any ideas as to why the country's going to Hell in a handbasket?

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

waMtn Hunter, this blog reminds me when I went to school, they would stop you at the door and ask if you had a gun. If you said "no "they would say "take this one"( Joke )

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Why would anyone want to listen to Don Imus? I listened to him for awhile several years ago. He is a buffoon that should be kicked to the curb by listeners, not the FCC or radio networks.Rush just spouts the same tired drivel year after year. He probably hopes Hillary or Obama get elected so he hasa target for the next four years or so.Blah, blah, blah, ba-blah.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Just happened to thing,(I do it at times) but on another blog I frequent, a young woman was telling her story, a gunman threatened the people in her church, she stepped up, Identified herself and took him down.. She did well in my book.

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from sarg wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Dave I just retired from a state university here in Kentucky... Everyone here carries or at least own several guns,BUT, I've seen how "s&%t faced "some of these kids get nowdays and really don't believe guns should be permitted in dorm rooms, we never had a problem here at school,but the kids do get wild on Sat. Night. Not everyone would do any thing with guns here but many student come from out of state and are not used to way of doing things... They made it a condition of employment, not to have employee carry guns in their cars. We all did with no problems but one never knows what someone else would do when mad. I'm a strong believer in the 2nd admendment but don't really believe they should be in dorm rooms on campus. Just heard on the news today that one university are getting rifles for their campus police because a hand gun will not reach top of these tall buildings...

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from wolfjaw wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

We have definitely come a long way. Time (1960s)was I could grab a rifle or shotgun, walk down a street enroute to a farm or back woods patch to hunt small game. If anyone took notice, it was to deliver a positive comment or to inquire about my success. In that time and place, no one in the media glamorized crime, justified it or rationalized inappropriate behavior.The issue was never firearms, but a propensity to misuse them; The issue now, is not about guns, but about mental health...and you can't legislate mental health or correct behavior, so the politically correct thing to do is castigate the responsible citizen and deamonize the inanimate object: the firearm. How I wish thngs had never changed. I condemn the media for irresponsible reporting; the entertainment industry for glorifying the misuse of firearms and weak spined men and women that refuse to stand up, speak their truth and stop the craziness. I believe if we (sportsmen) are not part of the solution, then we are clearly part of the problem. And, if we don't join a pro- first amendment organization, then we can expect worse in the future.

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from NH Philosopher wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

you can't legislate morality or ethics - no law in the world will protect individuals and organized groups from unwarranted and surprise attacks from psychopaths. individuals need to have the firm ability to protect themselves - because no one else has that ability. guns on campus a fine idea in the book of NH Philosopher.

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from Black Rifle Addict wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Well I gotta hand it to ya Dave, this topic is hotter then your damn .338 mag does it better, one!

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Cabela's for only an hour? You must get way too much free stuff in the mail Dave... besides it's more like three months and back to the same old same old. Rush and his excellence in broadcasting with half his brain tied behind his back just to make it fair for the liberals got old fast, and I didn't even realize he was telling the truth about his brain. Maybe now that he's down to a handful of OxyContin a day he's more listenable. I listened to G. Gordon Liddy every day for ten years and now I swear I could do his show better myself and still use his answers and experiences.We're just getting old is my answer. Kind of like getting tired of killing things or catching fish or listening to washed up rock n' rollers after a while the thrill is gone... oh to be twelve again.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

DaveI grew up listening to Imus when he was funny (to a group of pedantic middle schoolers). Just like the rest when he got political he got decidely less funny. When he tried to be funny people didn't take it that way, political correctness bit him in the ass. I can't listen to him anymore; kinda the same thing as watching the Rolling Stones pretend to be 20 something again, some things just need to end.As for other Talk Radio, ugh, rather shop with my (very wonderful) mother-in-law for a day than listen to that crap for an hour!SA

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

There was a 1984 US Supreme Court decision that involved the two women plaintiffs in Washington, D.C., who were raped repeatedly while a D.C. police cruiser simply drove by, without the officers getting out of their car. The decision of the Court was that no special duty to protect was owed to an individual, but only to society as a whole--which pretty makes the whole police thing worthless. The police have no "duty" to respond to an individual's 911 call--just to protect the public at large. In the D.C. case, the women were sexually assaulted over a 14-hour period. I disagree with the Court over this decision. No, the police cannot be everywhere, but when they are CALLED, they should respond and try to determine what's going on. I am one person who will NOT delegate the responsibility of protecting my family to the police!

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from Charles Burklund wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

The most dangerous place to be, statistically, in the US is a Gun free zone. For those who think legal carry doesn’t prevent more bloodshed, remember the Colorado Springs Church. That nut job only killed 2 people in each of 2 places. The first was, I believe, a gun free zone. The second place, in a CHURCH, he killed 2 people and when struck by return fire from a legally carried weapon, he killed himself. The shrinks claim these people can’t control themselves in planning & committing their evil deeds. But it seems to be a trend that these sick, twisted people would often rather kill themselves, than be taken alive or be fired upon by police (or someone choosing not to be a victim). They thrive on the terror they cause. They choose places where resistance is impossible. That is why they choose GUN FREE ZONES. It is all about a sick perverted sense of control. What better control do you have than when you have created an environment of terror without the possibility of your victims resisting? It IS set in stone.Many years ago in the Army there was a sign on the wall, “KTA, LGSTO”. “Kill them all, let God sort them out”. That’s how I believe we should deal with every mass killing perp. They need to meet sudden, massive, overwhelming, unrelenting, savage resistance from their would-be victims. The only way that is possible is to allow legal carry and have all GUN FREE ZONES heavily patrolled by armed POLICE, not Security guards.When Florida first allowed legal CCW, the anti-gunners went nuts, talked about blood running in the streets. And for a short time there was, but only until most of the really bad guys were put down by citizens defending themselves.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I have to agree with Yoop and others on the whole "talk radio" thing.I used to listen to Rush and a couple of the others and it just got to be the same old tired crap, day after day after day.Got bored and switched the channel.Jim

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

The thought that always enters my mind, it that there are many "Conservative" talk show hosts, hammering day in and day out that we need to stand up for ourselves, get off the Gov't tit and quit listening to "Liberal" double/speak politicians that tell us what we want to hear and not what they have in mind for "us" (U.S.!)! The trickery they go through to get you to believe one thing while they're slipping into your backyard with the "best of intentions"!Why are there no "Liberal" talk show hosts/programs! Expounding the virtues of increasing taxes, increasing Gov't programs, and "Let the Gov't take care of YOU!"Where are they!? I'd like to listen to one for a bit to see what it's like!Bubba

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

YooperJack,You can listen to Imus and others thru your computer while reading this blog. Search 77WABC-AM.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Mark-1, Bubba:I kind of mispoke earlier. I wasn't referring to a secret police. Just ordinary folks who would carry anywhere. If everyone knows that Prof. Jones in the Physics Dept is carrying, a crazed shooter would know not to shoot up that class. Thus, I would rather know that a high proportion of the teachers at Jefferson Elementary are armed, rather than knowing whom the armed teachers are. Also, I believe that anyone charged with protecting people by uing guns should undergo more intensive traing than people like myself.Dave Petzal:At a time where talk radio listening should be increasing, I can't listen anymore. I honestly think that you could turn it off for a month, turn it back on, and you would have missed nothing. I think its the overall negative theme of all of the shows right now. Never had a chance to hear Imus. I was thinking about buying sattlelite radio, but I don't think I would buy it for his show alone. The classic rock music genre really has me intrigued though.YooperJack

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from Dan D. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

In my "Great State of Connecticut" (that's sarcasm) the police are not liable for your personal protection. You cannot sue the state or town police departments if they weren't around to help you.Having said that, CT has this in our state constitution:SEC. 15. Every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state.Which is very specific in giving an individual the right to bear arms.Our Concealed carry laws are some of the toughest in the nation, often compared to California, yet being in the middle of the process, its really not that bad. After haing taken the NRA course, you 1st apply to the town, which fingerprints you and sends a copy to the state for a background check. After your "Temporary town permit" comes through (2-3 weeks depending on the town) you go to the state police and get you permit.A note on "training"...I don't belive the 6-8hr NRA course I took could count as training. My training started at the age of 10 when I 1st shot a pistol under the watchful eye of my father. It was rather pitiful too see what qualified as a passing shooting test from some of the other people in the class. So "training" can mean many things.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Bubba,Have a good day!Jim

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

DPSometimes you need repetition to drive a point home and make it stick!BUT, (there's that but [butt?] again!) you're right! On and on and on......Bubba

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

jstreetOne more comment and I'll leave it!My point about the driving/handgun license thing was this:Drivers Ed is several class room hours. Best I remember, 8 to 10 hours behind the wheel, THEN pass a test to be licensed!These are the most dangerous drivers on the planet, responsible for more deaths than any other "licensed" drivers!CHL permit is an 8 hour class, and approximately 20/30 minutes on a range. Then, it's on to a background check and issue a license! With no more "training" than that, this is probably the safest, most reliable people on earth, responsible for less deaths than even police shootings in one major metro area annually!Sometimes, more is not better!Sometimes, less is more!Bubba

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from Dave Petzal wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

And now for something completely different.Imus--not nearly as funny as before. The stammer and the muttering are major problems. Time to go?Also, I've begun listening to WABC (Breaking Wind and Stimulating Talk) and it seems that Mssrs. Hannerty, Limbaugh, et all repeat themselves over and over. You can be listening, take an hour in Cabela's, turn on the radio again, and you haven't missed a thing. Is this accurate?

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Yes, children are different than they were 50 years ago and probably the change is not for the better. I would still prefer for them to have the choice to have a .40 S&W in their hand when the proverbial $h*t hits the fan than a blue pole with a phone line to the police. "Just hang tight until we get there" right... and we sure don't need secret police. The armed society, polite society quote says it all for me too.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Chev Jim,Was it Houston or somewhere in Colorado where the "wacko" walked into the church and opened fire.A lady heard the ruckus, confronted the shooter and ended up neutralizing (killing) him!There is another instance of an armed citizen saving lives. Just another spot that was glibly mentioned in the news and then swept under the rug!DP,Seems I remember that happening, just don't seem to remember any details, which, is pretty normal for me!Bubba

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from Dave Petzal wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Here's something else to throw into the pot. In the late 1980s (I think), I reported on a lawsuit against the Washington, DC police department by two young women who were raped repeatedly in their house as a DC police cruiser circled the house, looking for signs of crime. The court found against the plaintiffs, stating that while the police have an obligation to protect society as a whole, they have no obligations to protect individuals. Anyone remember this? If so, please post particulars.

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I just thought of something. If the shooter at the McDonald's in West Palm Beach had been shot by an armed citizen the moment he fired at innocent bystanders, this would not have made the national news. The best you could have hoped for was Section D, page 14 of the daily newspaper. Some years ago in my hometown in Alabama, there were two armed robbers that burst into a Shoney's. The robbers started rounding up the customers and directing them toward some cold storage lockers. A licensed CCW holder drew his .45 auto and blasted the two robbers, killing one and severely wounding the other. My liberal hometown newspaper quoted him as saying he wasn't a hero, and tried to play down the fact he had saved lives that day. Nor did the heroic acts on his part make the national news. There's a definite media bias against reporting successes by armed citizens. Such news items doesn't fit their "canon" of news that supports the media's own political agenda. When the liberal broadcast networks kept accusing Fox of being "biased" toward the right-wing, I just about laughed my head off. It's bad when the media are biased; it's much worse when the media doesn't realize that they are, in fact, biased.

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from crm3006 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Police will protect us?Heaven above help us all!!In nearly any edition of any major newspaper one cares to peruse, there is some story of police or prosecutor malfeasance, and since the feds re-wrote the instant check standards to include spousalabuse/domestic violence as an exclusion from purchasing a firearm, a high percentage of our law enforcement is legally prohibited from CHL!No, I am not denigrating the vast majority of our law enforcement that is upstanding and dedicated and moral. They are simply overwhelmed, and by the very nature of our laws, the police are re-active, not pro-active. To put a point on it, law enforcement has no duty to protect the individual. They simply show up to take the statements and do the reports. I know this from painful, first hand experience. When it comes to my or my loved ones personal protection, either in our home, or any where else I choose to walk as a free Texan, I will depend on myself, and that wonderful invention of John Moses Browning that has been a good friend to me in more than one tight situation.One more item of note: Every state that has passed a concealedcarry law, and allowed citizens their God given and Second Ammendment guaranteed right to bearmed and protect themselves, has seen an overall drop in violent crime! You will not read this in the anti-gun MSM, but check out Professor John Lott for a few statistics.

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from John R wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Bubba (Quote)"The video games don't make criminals. Parents not caring what their children are doing OR getting involved in their childrens lives is what causes "bad" kids!Liberal's who think that the Gov't "owes" them a living and not wanting to be responsible for their own actions and the actions of their children causes "bad" kids!"No argument from me on that excellent point. I believe it (video game) isn't only one causitive factor and your quote above concerning negligent parents is certainly the lion's share of the problem. I still believe the current crop of Hollywood's more violent features has a desensitizing effect towards violence on today's kids.Good catch on my post!

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from jcarlin wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I've never been able to come to a conclusion on this issue. As a 32 year old commuter student with a carry permit who heads into the city for class at night, I'd really appreciate the ability to carry on campus. I also remember being an 18 year old in a dormitory where a large percentage of my floor-mates where experiencing new found freedoms and controlled substances for the first time. I don't believe that's an ideal environment for firearms. I feel that there should be a middle ground, but I don't know what it should be. I am not a fan of arming teachers only for several reasons. Members of academia are not always the most balanced of people for one and I don't think they should be made a target of as the only threat in a room for another.Where does that leave us?

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Jim in Mo,Think nothing of it. :-)Rebuilt the soapbox. To All:Be careful what you want to legislate. The “mental health benchmark” would red-line 95% of us ex-military types to possess any firearm. i.e. look at what the recent vets are facing.I must reaffirm Chev Jim. New York has come close to instituting a special class of citizen with law enforcement types, retired and active. I’m not certain of the Raison Etre, but nothing is more secure by these watchful, ARRP weapon carriers. In fact, the last 15-years not one postal worker has gone “postal” in Upstate New York. However, within that time there have been at least ten-causalities by law enforcement going nuts.Another Item: New York quietly modified the Domestic Violence Law when 40% of the State Trooper roll would have been ineligible to carry and possess firearms.This public information gets Government real quiet.

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Mark-1Congradulations on your fine service record, didn't mean to get huffy with you just get irritated when some people to quickly say lay people are well protected as is and we're basically nuts. If you want to get your blood boiling click on my post about midway into 'You bet your glass'. Of course its the people on the far coasts telling me how to live.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I really feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but I really don't think we, as freedom loving Americans, can afford to sit back and allow anti-gun, anti-carry zealots to overthrow our 2A rights!Most states have been effectively handling the licensure of persons wanting to carry a "weapon", concealed or not! The "background" check that CHL applicants get is much more thorough than a NCIC check at the Federal level for a weapons purchase.I, personally, DO NOT like the idea of persons with mental health issues being "listed" with that "list" being labeled no purchase, no carry! This doesn't mean we need to give mental patients firearms either, there just needs to be a "better" way!What ever happened to doctor/patient confidentiality? Or has that been thrown out by our Politically Correct society!?Bubba

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from Chev Jim wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Gary, I think the police are stupid for wanting to "clear" every CCW holder out of an area before letting the EMTs enter. That's elitism, and that's stupidity. We've had a lot of incidents near my city of Atlanta and nationwide in which cops killed their spouses and other innocent people. So, I'm sorry, but the police don't have any halos over their heads. This is not to denigrate the police, but to simply state that in such a situation, they should treat CCW holders as the honest, sovereign citizens that they are instead of trying to set up a "gun-free zone" around a crime scene. As far as these "mass shooters" go, what can you say but these are people who have "lost it" or "gone off the deep end." The problem with our society today is that persons with such feelings very often cannot get the help they need. Some people turned away from mental health hospitals have gone on rampages. None of that gives people the right to kill others, of course, but we've got to make better provisions for health care--mental and otherwise--if we want such people as the McDonald's shooter cared for in a facility rather than running around and shooting other people. That said, I would have personally shot the McDonald's shooter if I had been there and had been armed. I would have hated to do it, but I couldn't have just watched him shoot other people. I also agree that "gun-free zones" are preludes to "killing fields," and I am tired of this elitist mentality that only military and police and capable of employing firearms and exercising common sense.

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from Matthew Acton wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

As a 40 year old doctoral student who gets to interact with the 20-something year olds who are the general population of the campus I attend in Arizona, I have a unique perspective I would like to share.It isn't the campus security that is the problem, nor is it campus administration. IT IS an age group of the population that is incredibly detached, unresponsive, and completely self-absorbed. I have never seen a more apathetic group of people in my life- including when I was freshman over 20 years ago - that what is now enrolled. These selfish, spoiled kids just don't give a damn about anything but themselves. They sure don't know how to EARN a degree; they expect it to be handed to them.Arizona has a bill now in the Legislature that will permit the same type of concealed carry as Utah. I, for one, am completely for it. I really don't want to be lecturing a class or working on my research at my lab one day just to be cut down by some whiny punk who feels he got the shaft because he was expected to work for once in his pathetic life.

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from Tom Obuhanych wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Dave must be as ancient as I, Igraduated from a Miltary Academy in1964.But all the verbiage aside, note that all these recent shootings have been by mental problem people.There will never be any way to stop a crazy from shooting up some people.One answer, I think may partly work is if any treatment for a mental problem, even one visit,the info goes to a list sent to all gun stores prohibiting any sales, or at least until further checks.I don't see anything else that may work. If the crazies are on a "do not sell" list..that would prevent some, like the latest ones. Otherwise, there is no real answer. I'm from the West, too &I can walk down main street packing a sidearm...perfectly legal (if exposed, not concealed).And some pack going into NRA dinners, gun shows, etc. But able to carry is not a real deterrent anyway, unless most do & that will never happen, So rather than rant & rave about the situation, I vote for any mental treatment record be listed as not being able to sell to.That's my take on it, the rest isunrealistic.BEST Regards, Tom

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from Gman wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I am not quite as old as our esteemed moderator, having attended university in the late, lamented Carter administration. I too attended college at a rather rural outpost, but even then and there, if you were found to be in possession of ANY firearm on campus, you were more or less guaranteed expulsion. Many of us did not take that very seriously, as we were close to good duck and small game shooting. I can name you five guys on one dorm hallway who had a 12-ga in their closets.We also had two guys on our hall who certifiably had mental breakdowns, one rather placid and one rather violent. The chemical interactions of the late-adolescent brain are still being discovered, and I hesitate to make campuses a place where anybody could tuck a 9mm in with his socks, lest one of his buds gets a little loose with the logic after a brewski or three whilst facing getting kicked out of school for deficiencies of one kind or another.Fact is that the vast majority of folks out there, whom I still wouldn't classify as "anti," are not all that comfortable with the idea that encouraging widespread CCW is the best way to fight psycho shootings. But I am also becoming dismayed with the effectiveness of current legislation not doing what it is intended to do.Perhaps if the current background checks were vigorously enforced, with the wholehearted backing of the gun owners' groups, and training was made much more rigorous nationwide, with re-certification necessary every 3-4 years, that would alleviate some of the non-shooters' discomfort.The wild card I would add in here, and might take some heat for, would be to loosen restrictions on CCW on campuses, malls, etc...but to make a hefty liability insurance policy mandatory for anybody who opts to carry. That stipulation might weed out some of the loose screws.

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Jim in Mo, FYIDisabled, retired USAF Officer. 13-years in combat units and combat time and staff positions. However, the planes I flew, missiles I targeted are moth- ball'd. USSR is no more, WPC are our allies, nor is SAC in existence. I'm mothball'd along with you.Point: Can't live in the past nor being retired military mean much if a person never developed personal credibility and only depended on institutional rank. If you're a *leader* you'll know what I mean.soap box just broke.

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from KJ wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Allowing college students to carry will provide a deterent of sorts, but will only treat the symptom of the larger problem. When did life become so trivial that a young person would have the audacity to walk onto a campus and start killing? How does a human life become so inconsequential? When we answer that we will begin to address the deeper problem.

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from Kevin wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Bubba,You are correct. We have not been any verbal squabbles. I don't usually put all of my contradicting opinions out there, whether with you or others.I also agree in most situations not to tell folks if you are actually carrying. What I meant about "talking" was that IMO gun owners should softly, politely, and without shame talk about gun ownership more openly and matter of factly. (Yes, there is the risk of thieves overhearing.) Not wanting to sound egotistic, but I have quite a few friends and typically I get along with most folks of various walks in life. I have in the past, not talked about hunting or gun ownership when I thought that I might hurt someone else's feelings, scare them, or risk being disliked. I live in a very "liberal" city. I have many "liberal" friends and contacts. I no longer choose not to speak about hunting or firearms ownership around folks with opposing views. I hope that my social conduct continues to leave a good image in the minds of these friends and contacts. I want them to re-think, as many of them seem to have been raised or persuaded by the media against guns; that gun owners and hunters can be "nice" people too.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

BubbaOur Pal Yoop (with whom I most often agree) was a tad over the top with some of his suggestions! Next he'll want to see pro basketball players deputized to patrol the streets of Miami....! Oh wait that has already happened...!Seriously, big difference between us Citizens legally carrying and being deputized as 'Posse' or shadow cops.SA

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Silver ArrowI agree with you and the 2A about not having to "qualify"!That's the point on which jstreet and I disagreed vehemently. On your side, I disagree to the same degree that there will be shootouts in "The Quad"! Yes, human nature has proven time and time again that people will sometimes do stupid sh**! Meaning there will probably be a shootout in "The Quad" from time to time, but there will be less "shootouts" than "shootings"!And even Yoop had a good idea, just too much like "Big Brother" staring over your shoulder!Bubba

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from John Grunwald wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

What country had confiscated and banned ALL personal held guns? Germany prior to WWII. The citizens could not of protected themselves from Hitler even if they wanted to.

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from Carney wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I say, "Always, always, always be ready to shoot the bad guys!"

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Congratulations to all! Seriously, this thread could have deteriorated into a maelstrom of name calling and bad language. We have seen both sides vigorously defended respectfully!I am still on the conflicted side with Gary. I am a proponent of concealed carry everywhere -- but -- if a state suddenly shifts gears and opens its college campuses to it I do fear the likelihood of a gun-fight on the quad somewhere.On another note there is nothing in the Second Amendment requiring or even allowing a requirement of training or licensure to Keep and Bear Arms (some might call that Infringement - I do). \New Hampshire is a 'Will Issue' state, next door Vermont is a no permit required state -- with among the lowest violent crime in the nation (go figure). No training or qualification is required here to carry.SA

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from Mahonri wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I live in Utah and attend school at the University of Utah. The U of U is probably the most influential group that is trying to get guns banned on school campuses right now. I am a CCW holder and I carry to school and everywhere else I am legally allowed to. If some punk walks into any classroom that I'm in with intentions to massacre a dozen + people, it will cost him his life. The more laws that get passed banning handguns on school campuses and other places, the worse the killing sprees are going to be. It's my right to carry to protect and preserve my life. It's a right that should never be taken away from me.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Glad we are seeing eye to eye! You are definetly a tough debater!Have a good evening and I'm sure we'll meet again on this (or some other forum).Jim

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Well jstreet,I suppose all this was over the "training" thing. I will admit that I was not aware that a CHL could be obtained without the class and range work!In Oklahoma, the class is eight (8) hours. The range is relatively informal and based on everything except accuracy! My instructors statement was, "If you don't shoot me, you will pass!" The only exception to this was the guy that was waving a Walther .380 Auto around like it was a Coke bottle. The instructor, the third time he pointed it at the lady to his left, asked him to look at his gun. He handed the gun to the instructor who immediately slipped the clip, secured the weapon and escorted the gentleman to his vehicle!In Texas, you must qualify (unless it's changed) with at least a .32 caliber. If you qualify with a revolver, you can only carry a revolver. If you qualify with a semi-auto, you can carry revolver OR semi-auto!Oklahoma is the same, EXCEPT, you can qualify with a .22 LR!Bubba

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from ColoradoRanchForSale.com wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

An armed society is a polite society. Lets make it legal in all states to encourage people to be polite

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Kevin,I don't really recall anything that we have disagreed on, but thanks.Now, one of the things that is taught in the Oklahoma CHL class, is "talking" about the firearm you are carrying. It's a no-no. Why? You go to yakking at some anti-gun "nobody" and then they start screaming that Billy "Redneck" "...HAS A GUN! RUN, HE'S GONNA START SHOOTING!!!"If you are carrying concealed, just keep your mouth shut! DO NOT draw your weapon with the intention of "scaring" a would be robber/shooter! "IF" you draw your weapon, USE IT!! The key here is, DO NOT draw your weapon until you have first tried to extricate yourself from the situation. If you are unable to extricate yourself, and you feel your "life" is in "eminent danger" draw your weapon and defend yourself! Period!Bubba

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Bubba quotes:With all that training, how many licensed drivers kill innocent people on a daily basis!?With the training and background checking they go through to obtain a CHL, how many kill innocent people on a daily basis!Bubba,You actually illustrate a good point. Under no duress, people can't even drive cars well. How in the world do you think untrained CCW holders will react in a situation where people are being shot at? All I've said from day one about this is GET YOUR TRAINING and then you should be allowed to carry and protect yourself and others from harms way (unless the property owner, school, church, etc doesn't allow firearms on the property).Bubba Quote 2:The bad guys are the ones busting caps at everything that moves or is lying dead in a pool of blood.The good guys are the ones standing with guns drawn on a prone figure lying in a pool of blood!That shouldn't be too hard to figure out, huh!?Bubba,With all due respect, that's a little too much like a movie script rather than real life. The good guys wear white, the bad guys wear black and the good guys always win in the end. Life isn't like that and never has been.Bubba quote three:No Jim, I'm saying CHL holders "have" taken training as too when and when not to be flashing their guns. They have been to classes and to the range!Now, since they have had training and classroom hours to obtain licensure, why not allow them to carry on a college campus?!Bubba,On this we agree. Get your state required training, understand the risk and liabilities of carrying and if the campus allows, carry all you want.Have a good evening.Jim

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Mark-1,'We' guys aren't scared and you wouldn't be to if you ever been in the military. Maybe we're scared for our kids or grandkids. Get a life and learn how to defend yourself.Screw the rules they have changed.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

John RYour last statement is your best, "...I think there remain a lot of good people out there and we are becoming victims to(of) media hype."Right on!Except!The video games don't make criminals. Parents not caring what their children are doing OR getting involved in their childrens lives is what causes "bad" kids!Liberal's who think that the Gov't "owes" them a living and not wanting to be responsible for their own actions and the actions of their children causes "bad" kids!Bubba

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from Kevin wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I don't comment too often, but I'll side with Bubba (whom I don't typically agree with, though not usually in print) that law-abiding people should not be feared nor prohibited from responsibly transporting or possessing firearms. I'll go further and state that we should begin (as gun owners) to politely and without apology, work into casual conversation the fact that we possess and use firearms. I think that if "non-firearms people" see (openly) that "regular" folks which they interact, work, and socialize with own, use, and hunt with guns they may start to re-think their positions against guns and hunters.I have friends in law enforcement. With that said....anyone that has ever had to call the cops knows that in a "real" and important situation, these honorable folks usually show up way too late!!! America was founded and expanded by self-reliant people. History sadly shows us what types of governments or entities try to restrict the individual's right to freedom and self reliance.I say "GO UTAH"!!!!Kevin

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from John R wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I have to disagree with Mr. Petzal. NO, massacres are NOT becoming as much a part of campus life as projectile vomiting and political correctness.I say this because I am currently researching how many institutions of learning we have in this country; both elementary through high school and universities. I plan to find a ratio between the number of shootings versus the number of schools factored with the total number of students. I would bet early on that a student still has better than a 99% chance of attending 16 years of school without getting shot. School massacres are not quite yet the norm.As far as the causative factors in all the recent shootings, I blame violent video games (e.g. grand theft auto, hitman), violent Hollywood movies (e.g. the Saw series, Hostel, and a host of others), and as the Annie Wilkes character from the novel Misery would say, "a bunch of cockadoodie brats!"When many of us were young, TV series and movies played up honor and the hero image and good always wins (or at least was better). Now, in our "enlightened future" each person can be a law unto him/herself. If somebody dares to challenge your right to be whacko, then you are perfectly justified to whack them. Honestly speaking, I think there remain a lot of good people out there and we are becoming victims to media hype.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Well Yoop,I thought about it a bit more.Nope, we don't need more police. We REALLY don't need "secret" police/militia!We just need simple armed citizens that have been cleared by background check, a concealed carry class explaining the laws and what you can/cannot do and what is expected of you as an armed citizen!Oh, and checked on a range that they can at least use the weapon of their choice!Ask any police officer who they least want shooting at them. That answer is most likely going to be a pissed off woman. She doesn't know anything about guns, she just points and shoots! How do you shoot a handgun! Forget sights, point and shoot!!Bubba

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I can't think of anything more horrifying than a "secret militia" roaming and trolling the streets.This country and culture can afford the rarity of a Combine, but we'll never survive a secret, fascist militia.You guys are running around just as shit-ass scared as the Elite Liberal Intelligentsia

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from LowRecoil wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

All the talk about response teams being confused about who is the nutjob of the day and who is defending the defenseless is unnecessary. If Whackjob Jimmy opens fire, and our schoolboy heroes respond in kind, the whole nightmare will probably be over long before any law enforcement or crisis teams reach the scene. Of course, that's assuming that the schoolboys can hit what they are shooting at.It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of someone who might actually face that situation someday: campus police, local SWAT personnel, etc. I am curious as to what they would prefer- an armed student body, or only one shooter.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Well Wes,If there are armed citizens on campus and a "crazy" starts shooting, by the time a "response team", pun intended, "responds", the bad guy, hopefully, will be the one lying in a growing pool of blood!From all the incidents I been able to read up on, no response team has ever been "responsible" for taking down the "offending" shooter!This is why I don't understand why everybody keeps yakking about all the "untrained" gun toters wandering around a campus causing collateral damage and confusing the "response team"!No response team I've ever read about in a school shooting needed a gun, they needed a medical bag because the shooter was already "down"!Yoop, while I'm not so sure your idea is all that bad, until I do a little more thinking, it kinda smacks of vigilante-ism!Isn't licensed, armed citizens pretty much the same thing!? That is, citizens obtaining concealed carry permits and then carrying concealed weapons, in public whether it be a campus, mall or Luby's cafeteria!?Bubba

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Wes:That's why I want my "posse" radio equipped. I'd hate to see someone being heroic, only to be gunned down by friendly fire! There would need to be some communication so that police would know the situation prior to their entry. I do believe that simply allowing students to carry might create a pandora's box.YooperJack

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from Wes wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I have to agree w/ jstreet on this one. Being on a college campus, I would love to know that I and other responsible, trained individuals were carrying. But if the shooting starts, how are other students and, most esp, the response team, going to know who is who? They see someone w/ a gun, they don't know which side he/her is on.Also, I would not want some of the guys I know to be carrying, even though I know that they would most likely be able to get fully certified, etc. Some people just aren't responsible enough and they're the ones who will cause the accidents, which in time could be worse than murder/suicides.

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from eyeball wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I like it, Yooper. And no, Jason, if some kid wants to commit murderous suicide, that he might encounter another armed student might not stop him from trying. But it might keep the innocent body count down if, after said kook opens fire, he is greeted by appropriate force in return rather than being able to murder the whole football team and cheerleading squad while the campus cops are responding. One or two bodies are a tragedy, but two sure beats forty two.

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from YooperJack wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Most of you have heard this from me before, but the Wendy's incident this morning kind of solidified my thinking.We need that "secret militia". People who have volunteered for extra training by the police and covertly carry in all walks of life. They're needed in schools, colleges, restaurants, hospital and malls. They need some defensive shooting training, badges as deputized law officers and communication devices to talk to the police when they arrive.I like to think of this as a volunteer sherriff's department or a posse.I think this "crazed shooter syndrome" will get worse before it gets better. Ever since the sixties, its been drummed into our heads that little guys get screwed! A fellow gets a bad grade in school, its not his fault, its the system. This attidude is prevelant in our society. Hey, I've had my share of tough breaks but I wake up every day and feel like the luckiest guy in the world.YooperJack

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from Jim in Mo. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

jstreet,Mo. requires training. I nor my son refuse to be sheep and follow.As the old saying goes "I'd rather be caught with one than without one'.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

jstreetA gentleman on a different thread mentioned the hoops he had to jump through to get his driver's license!There are expensive classes, classroom hours, and hours behind the wheel with an instructor. This is just to get to the point where the state will even "test" them for a driver's license!With all that training, how many licensed drivers kill innocent people on a daily basis!?With the training and background checking they go through to obtain a CHL, how many kill innocent people on a daily basis!Bubba

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from Trae B. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Well at our school we really aint allowed to have guns anywhere on school property but my principal told me felt safer knowing that most of use have guns any way.So that if somebody brought a weapon to school and started shooting people the good ol' boys could return fire.

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

jstreetThe bad guys are the ones busting caps at everything that moves or is lying dead in a pool of blood.The good guys are the ones standing with guns drawn on a prone figure lying in a pool of blood!That shouldn't be too hard to figure out, huh!?Bubba

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

No Jim, I'm saying CHL holders "have" taken training as too when and when not to be flashing their guns. They have been to classes and to the range!Now, since they have had training and classroom hours to obtain licensure, why not allow them to carry on a college campus?!Bubba

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from Wulffy wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Has anyone else noticed that having a CCW/CPL/CHL is a handy way of getting out of speeding tickets (as long as the speed wasn't overly excessive)?

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from bryan wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

So Dave,Did the 00 buckshot to the textbooks give birth to the Ballistic Buffalo or did that come about differently?

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from Wulffy wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Washington State doesn't require a class. Washington, despite how liberal we are, is a shall issue state, meaning that as long as you can pass your background check and wait 30 days, you get a CPL (Concealed Pistol License). Which is kind of backward since, if I understand correctly, we are one of only a couple states that has a waiting period to buy handguns (5 days). However, this waiting period is waived if you have a current CPL (which I have had since age 21).Not requiring a CPL class has made several other states slow to accept Washinton issued CPLs.

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

What's your point? Are we both agreeing that CHL/CCW holders should have to take a class?I think CCW is a great thing for the country. My only concerns have ever been, training to be able to handle situations that may arise and how will other ccw holders and/or law enforcement know we are good guys not the bad guys.Jim

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Oh, and jstreet,Oklahoma requires training, Texas requires training.These states make it mandatory that you take a class that explains the ins and outs of their concealed carry permits, which, incidently, are called CHL's in both states. Concealed Handgun License! The class expressly covers when it is appropriate to pull and use said weapon. What conditions must be met to make "lethal force" legal/acceptable! After this training, each student had to go to a range and prove proficiency with their selected firearm! One gentleman in our class was denied a CHL because he couldn't seem to get the idea through his head that he couldn't point the muzzle of his weapon just anywhere. The instructor asked for his weapon, unloaded it and escorted him to his vehicle. I don't know if he ever got a CHL!I don't know of any state that does not require class room and range training before qualifying for a CHL.Bubba

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Oh and Bubba,Utah requires training.4.Weapon Familiarity Certification. Applicants must complete a firearms familiarity course certified by BCI. The course must be completed before you apply for a permit. Please have your instructor complete the certification information on the application. View a list of certified instructors.Jim

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from Mark-1 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

These school shootings appear the new generation’s trend. I find it significant the student shootings fad started in high schools and now have invaded college campuses as the generation aged. The new youth is killing themselves off in spite of “security” features, counseling, and years of our school officials parroting Mr. Rogers saying, “You’re special.”

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from jstreet wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Bubba,I never used the word "extensive". I do think CCW holders can be a huge deterrent to crime and everyone should have the opportunity to carry. BUT, a state training course should be required to get that CCW.When, were, how, why to use that firearm LEGALLY is not something that comes with the firearms owner's manual. The liability and room for error is too large to just say, "Here's a gun, here's your permit, have at it". Would you want untrained police on the streets? Untrained doctors, teachers? Education and training is a GOOD thing for everyone including CCW holders.Jim

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

You're right crm3006!The problem is, they can see the firearm as a cold, bloodless tool that has no feelings! They don't seem to understand or care, that the fingernail file they carry in their purse can be just as deadly.The 10,000 pound automobile that they came to the anti hunting rally has killed more animals and people in the last hundred years than died, oh, say WW II which only lasted five years!More people are killed maliciously with automobiles EVERY year than are killed by firearm!They only see the lowly firearm as an instrument of death!If you rode your rifle to work everyday, it's a necessity and not a problem!Bubba

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from Mike Diehl wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I have to agree entirely with Petzal here. Allowing people who have CCW permits to bear them on campus is an outstanding idea.And yeah, the "rampage" seems to be the new fashionable way that crazies and narcissists now do themselves in. In the good ole days under all that chemical haze or lunacy despair, these people would have quietly shot themselves or swallowed rat poison.But now every one is taught that they are a Victim of Society from an early age. So now when the unsuccessful, desperate, or crazy crack up, instead of checking out on their own, they seek an entourage of their "victimizers."

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from crm3006 wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Alas,for those long ago days. I too, carried a gun, or sometimes three, to both high school and college. If one gave it any thought at all, the vehicle without some sort of firearm in either an open gun rack, or in the floor board, or behind the seat, was far more rare than the vehicle with a firearm. We actually used to hold turkey shoots on campus to raise money for various clubs, projects, etc.Of course, this was long before the "enlightened elite" educated us all in political correctness and taught us that the GUN, not the poor,misunderstood,homicidal mainiac weilding the gun, was EVIL.Seems to me it was a better world then, when a college kid could bring a big deer he had shot on campus, and be surrounded with an envious, admiring crowd, and no one critized him for shooting Bambi. He actually got his fifteen minutes of fame without commiting a massacre upon his fellow students, nor did CNN get involved. See how much better off we all are, now that the world is Politically Correct!!

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from Bubba wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Hello jstreet,Isn't this what you are all against!?No carrying on campus without extensive training?If they care enough to get a carry permit, allow them to carry on campus, as well as anywhere else!Bubba

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from jack wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

The MSM will be all over this morning's Florida shootings - but - I wonder if they will pick up last night's story in Toledo of a concealed carry permit holder who killed a robber who was pointing a gun in his face.Victim of Robbery Attempt Kills Toledo Man.http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080303/NEWS03/803030386

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from Gary wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

A fact of life is that every choice has both benefits and consequences and this issue is no different.My wife's first cousin is a police officer in a major metropolitan area and he is a member of the task force that responds to situations such as campus shootings. He is very pro gun, but he is conflicted over the issue of allowing guns on campus for a couple of reasons. The main one being that the police cannot let EMTs into a situation until the area is cleared. So in the case of an attack such as the ones that have occured recently, the police would have to block all exits and check for CCW permits and guns before they could get to anyone who happened to be injured,I too find myself conflicted over this issue, as I feel that admitting the only way to secure our schools is at gun point is an extremely sad commentary on the state of our nation.

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from Chris H. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I think it would be something they would consider. These nuts are after a high body count. If the go somewhere that has a much higher potential for thier victims to fire back they would not get the body count they are after. They might also have to share or, hopefully, completely give up the spotlight to the potential victim that ended the attempted shooting spree. If I had to choose between headlines "Gunman foiled by heroic student" or "Gunman kills thirty-two then self" I'll take the first one every time. Of course I'd rather not see either but sometimes reality bites! This is not to say that there would be no one killed in an event like this but I believe that if someone had a gun they would have been able to reduce the number of innocent students killed. This is not a perfect world, why not stack the odds in our favor.

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from Bernie Kuntz wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Your comments are well-put, Dave. Back in the early 1970s I had a shotgun in my closet in my dorm room at the University of North Dakota. I used it to hunt ducks and geese on weekends. If I broke any rules, I don't remember it. Yes, imagine what would happen today if a student tried that. (I liked your end-of-the-year ritual of shooting up onerous textbooks! I wish I had tried that!)After the Virginia Tech massacre there was a big debate here at Montana State University with the predictable stances--the liberal intelligentia on one side, arguing that firearms have no place on a campus, and MY side, claiming that students are mere defenseless, unarmed sheep for any nut who wants to kill innocent people.In my opinion, the Second Amendent does NOT cease to exist at national park boundaries, or at the doors of federal and state buildings, or at the edges of university campuses.

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from Jason wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Yes Dave I agree, I think you make a clear and decisive point that any insane homicidal psychopathic killer would do well to sit down and rationally consider this possibility, during the planning of his mass killing spree.Look it is not set in stone that the right to carry would have stopped one of these guys. It is for sure that these killers are not going to be persuaded by the fact that they might be the only ones armed. I simply suggest regardless it is wrong to pass laws against carrying a gun.

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from Chris H. wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I keep saying it! The people that will be carrying guns on campus are the same people carrying guns everywhere else. They are not nut jobs. They are people that have done whatever needed to be done to obtain a conceal and carry permit. These are people carrying guns that you never see until some low life tries to pull you out of your car at an intersection. Then these people unconceal those guns and come stop the low life. Why not give them the same opportunity on college campuses. These people don't get mad and decide to shoot somebody because they cut them off in traffic. I know, I'm one of those people!

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from eyeball wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

As I write this, on FOX a report is going out about a mass shooting at a Wendy's in Florida, a state renowned for its right-to-carry laws (remember the antigunner gambit of a couple of years ago warning foreign visitors to Florida that they were entering a free-fire zone?). Moral; if citizens won't exercise their freedom to be as well- armed as the thugs and terrorists who would prey upon them, mass murder/suicides will go on, even in Utah.

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from Blue Ox wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I don't live very far from NIU, and the sheer amount of pissing and moaning about even more restrictive gun laws is enough to make me puke in my soup. So the friutcake bought- LEGALLY bought some guns, no big deal. Happens every day. Then one day he gets his panties all in a bunch and makes the choice to whack a few students and then off himself. Who knew what dude had planned? But now Mayor Daley and Gov. Blowjobovich want to make even more gun laws, and for what?!Here's another view:I went out and bought a silverado last summer. Nothin' illegal about it. No big deal. Now suppose I went and mowed down a bunch of schoolkids with said pickup truck, then proceeded to drive off a cliff. I bought the truck legally, but who knew what I had planned?Does this mean we need tougher vehicle-purchasing laws? Are the parental units of the children I pancaked gonna sue Chevy for building the truck I used to commit said act? Maybe sue the dealership for selling it to me?Bottom line:More gun laws are not gonna protect ANYONE.You can make the laws as restricive as the day is long, but the truth is that anybody who wants a gun can get one, regardless of the laws. Happens every day.In my humble opinion, I believe that an eight-thousand pound truck is a hell of a lot more deadly than a puny shotgun and a few pistols.But there's no law against buying one, is there?

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from LowRecoil wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

I guess the good ol' days are long gone. In my high school parking lot, most of the pickups had a rifle or shotgun perched in the gun rack in the back window. The reason was that many of us would go directly from school to a dove field, or a deer stand or a duck blind. In college, I kept a shotgun and a rifle in my dorm room. When I could catch a break, I would go hunt something. Carrying a gun through the dorm lobby caused no great outcry. That was then.I agree that a student body at least partly made up of concealed-carriers would deter the twisted few who have made headlines lately. Unfortunately, getting a policy implemented to allow that would be both logical and reasonable, and universities are not governed with those qualities in mind.Boards of regents these days are more inclined to bend to public outcry than to make reasoned and rational decisions.One of our small colleges here is known for its gunsmithing program. I can't help but wonder what will happen when the public's hysteria over guns collides with this small rural college. Perhaps the students will just have to sit around and talk about what they would have done if they actually had a gun to work on.

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from SilverArrow wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

At the risk of sounding PC I don't agree with all of the statements above. No I don't want to see Utah change its laws, it seems to work for that state.I don't agree that we should be looking for an 'Old West' shoot-out on the campus quad either. I know that is not what you are saying, Dave, but it is the likely scenario at the end of the day. Some one of these punks will take it as a challenge.Until we catch one of these knuckleheads before they start their murderous felonies and pick their brain apart we can only guess at the reasons and the preventative measures which will work. The letters they leave behind may well be written to pander to that 15 minutes of fame you mentioned.SA

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from Concerned_Soldier wrote 6 years 6 weeks ago

Knock on Wood!!V/RC_S

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