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August 05, 2008
Video Topic: Freedom Under Fire?
By David E. Petzal and Phil Bourjaily
The only man accused of Britain's biggest bank robbery walked free from court yesterday after the collapse of his trial. [url=http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1075510/Bank-worker-accused-26million-IRA-robbery-walks-free-trial-collapses.html]More..[/url]by xrtst302a
One of the facts of the BATF investigation that hasn't been brought to light here or by the media is the fact that the first time the BATF lab tested the weapon, they could not get it to malfunction. The lab classified the weapon as a properly functioning semi-auto rifle.The lead investigator was not happy with the results and sent it back to the lab with instruction to use some home-brewed underpowered, soft primer reloads. Only then were they able to get it to malfunction. The court denied Olofson the right to question these results.Another thing, the selector switch on a semi-auto AR cannot make it malfunction this way without the addition of a full-auto sear. So the fact that it could rotate to the third position is irrelevant.Also from what I understand, the court denied Olofson's firearms experts the chance to inspect the weapon so they could have their own expert testify. The BATF in this case was treated as the sole expert authority.So in the end, both sides of the story were NOT told to the jury. And given the evidence actually presented to the jury, I'm not suprised they convicted him. If all the evidence was allowed to be presented, I'm pretty confident that it would have gone the other way.What I'm amazed at is after all the shenanigans that the ATF has pulled over the years, that they have any standing or credibility in the courts at all.The phrase "absolute power corrupts absolutely" comes to mind.
To say that the AR15 had 3 positions and military ammo didn’t result in multiple burst is really OXYMORON! The ammo in question that produced in multiple burst must be loaded minimum resulting in below system functional chamber/gas operating pressures. I wonder if there is damage to the gas operating system? Not enough pressure to blow back the bolt to force and drive the hammer back into locking position? This sounds to me like one of the things can really happen.I do know for a fact that prosecuting attorneys will in fact withhold and twist information just to get a guilty verdict when they know the person in not guilty at all!
Jim in Mo.I remember 75 pounds ago at around 198ibs and 5’9’’, I was running up and down those mountains like molehills. Today nine out of ten, I’m out by myself and I can use a little insurance policy besides my trusty old Ruger 44mag Super Black Hawk AKA “The Power Ax”! , my 5 watt Ham dual band 2meter/440 that I can get up on the government frequencies and cannot rely on my cell phone. As for my Ham dual band transceiver there are too many frequencies in Arkansas just to pin a few down and the places even sun light don’t get into. In Maricopa County Arizona, Sheriff’s department VHF channel eight was my prime 911 frequency in case for help.
Yeah Dennis we give away over ten billion dollars in foreign aid a year... Israel, Iran, Saudi Arabia, you know all those oil rich errrr... poor countries. Actually a lot does go to poor countries in Africa and to Peru and Columbia for "the war on drugs". My money and your money to promote good will. More like bribes but we know Washington wouldn't know anything about bribes. They're all voting their conscience. Right? Iran used to get more than anyone but fell out of the top ten around 2004-2005. We spend more there now but don't catagorize it as foreign aid. Israel gets the most just about every year but then send half of it back for military reasons. Hell we even send China over a billion every year. Why not, we're all rich...
Coop,Stay out of those Boston Mtns., and you'll never have to use that tracker!
It happens to me now and then, I’ll get a double out of my AR-15 and it’s called bump firing. Next month I’m planning to install a single stage trigger on it.What the real problem is, no one on the jury and on the defense knows anything about AR’s.Hey Lone Star just got me one of those SPOT satellite trackers!
This is a horrible series of events that led to a jury trial?! Where in the hell is responsible judge? The fact that this judge didn't tell the govt to look at the facts and go pound sand is really a shame. What a waste of time resources. Of course, US Atnys, Judges will cut deals all day long on the worst of the worst and crooked CEO and let them walk but love to pimp a clean guy with no power defense.
And you say it cannot be done!http://search.msn.com/video/results.aspx?q=semi+auto++fastest&first=41&docid=2513865278531&FORM=VIVR10http://search.msn.com/video/results.aspx?q=semi+auto++fastest&first=41&docid=2476835935430&FORM=VIVR19Tossed this next one in for fun!http://search.msn.com/video/results.aspx?q=fastest+handgun&docid=2218174709950&FORM=VIVP10
ClayI’ll be up at White Rock next Saturday 16 AugustC U DAR!
Dick McLittleCheck this outThe AR-15 single stage trigger provides a clean and crisp 3 or 4LB pull.www.timneytriggers.com/sunshop/catalog/AR-15-Skeletonized-5.html
It sounds like a load of Hogwash to me. It'll probably end up like so many things the Govt is involved in nowadays, we will never know the real truth, especially if it conflicts with what they want us to think.Also when is the NRA going to challenge the GCA? The 2nd doesn't say single shot or semi-auto arms, it says "ARMS" and that you and I have the right to both KEEP and BEAR them. How long can they put off pushing for the affirmation of this RIGHT?If anything it should specifically protect our right to military type arms as it was intended to be a deterrent to a Govt using military power to subjugate the general population, we should have the right to any arms and weapons our military uses to keep it viable as a deterrent to military subjugation. I don't care how many citizens have handguns and rifles, one Abrams tank will wipe them all out in short order.We are in effect arguing over our right to have toys and not real weapons which can defeat a military takeover of the country.Full Auto, LAW Rockets, Tanks and Artillery should all be legal for civilian ownership under the 2nd Amendment as far as I see. Are they not all "arms"? I'm surprised the NRA didn't help defend this case under the 2nd Amendment infringement of it. Afterall the right to bear arms is not limited in the 2nd to a certain type of arm is it? And also is supposed to "not be infringed". When someone says I can buy this gun but not that gun because it shoots faster I feel like my rights are being infringed! How about you?
Dr. Ralph,Weve tried to level the playing field in a global economy to be nice? Is that what all the Bush tax breaks for outsourced American jobs were for?Weve given our money away in aid?You know this war that weve been engaged in for some time? How do you think we pay for that? Heres a hint....its not with a tax increase as we have not had one to fund this war. The only thing were giving away would be monetary notes, to other countries, to fund this mess in Iraq.
Exactly WAMtnhunter! Unless you are very friendly with everyone at your local range, you don't go popping off 3 shot bursts which the article stated Mr. Olafson's rifle did. Evidently there was a snitch present. You'd think that there are men still left on this planet that would walk over and talk to someone first and advise him/her that that what had been done to the rifle is questionable at the least rather than just turn them in. Additionally, when you have militias mentioned as in the article and prior arrest incidents, you can rest assured that the Govt boys have had their eye on this guy for a while. People should realize that if they illegally modify a rifle, then there may come a day that they will be caught. Just the automatic fire control parts alone are considered to be a machine gun by the BATFE. Do I agree that the NFA is a good thing?...certainly not, but as Phillip said it is currently the law. One thing about juries; the judge instructs them that they have to decide based upon several factors that the judge outlines. What most aren't aware of is a process called jury nullification whereby the jury can render a not guilty verdict despite the evidence.
Who ever smelled the "pole cat in the henhouse" is correct. There is obviously more to the story. Has this guy been buying lots of weapons and parts? Does he hold an FFL? Obviously he has been under scrutiny from the BATFE for not just this incident. Usually when the cops go after someone, they go after what they think they can prove, not necesarily the most important issue.The best advice is not to become a target of interest for out of control agencies like the BATFE and IRS. Fly under the radar.Like I said, there is more to the story, just like Ruby Ridge and Waco. Trust your government. they are here to help, the check is in the mail, and I won't c..., you know the rest.....
Clevert said the key was not what parts were in the weapon but whether it operated in automatic mode. He played a video used at trial showing ATF agents firing Olofson's weapon in automatic mode.THEN????He also noted that in one ATF test, the rifle didn't fire automatically when military-grade ammunition was used.DO WHAT!Something is really screwy here!!
I agree with Jim in Mo.Also, the choices for the presidential office this year are slim.I would pick McCain any day over Obama. Obama is nothing but a socialist in disguise.
I can't and won't admire any president until the ATF is dissolved and rebuilt. The executive office seem to fear or hide behind this agency much as they did the FBI and J. Edgar Hoover. And we found out what a strange one he was.
The jurors must have had the collective mechanical aptitude of a preschooler to find this man guilty! I've had a .45 autoloader double on me at the range, and a simple replacement of a worn sear cured that problem. I'm thankful there were no BATF agents on nearby firing positions. I'm assuming no parts were "modified" and nothing was deliberately done to cause or facilitate burst fire; if this was simply the product of aging parts or mechanical failure, this is a gross miscarriage of justice and evidence of ignorance. I also have to question the defense attorney's competence, since there apparently was no credible expert witness to counter these charges with fact.We do live in interesting times, and issues like this shake my faith in the legal system. This should never have gone to trail.
Mtnhunter--in response to that I say that it was "reported" that David Koresh was molesting the children in the Branch Davidian compound too.You know by now that just because it's in print, it doesn't always mean that it's so.
the rest of the story is always interesting isn't it? as a gunsmith i should be careful but the atf is tenacious at best. this guy doesn't seem like such the boyscout when more of the facts are presented. bring yourself to the attention of federal authorities and good luck!
eyeballthere can be no jury trial, without a decision to prosecute. This man was railroaded by a zealot government, the "sainted" Republicans.So much for the "gun grabbin democrats"!
Let’s face the facts about the ATF or better yet Law Enforcement in general. With the exception of a few are group individuals with no prior practical experience with firearms and the handling of. The most dangerous individuals I know of are those that carry weapons in line of duty and once again I’ll stress what I said, with the exception of a few that did grow up hunting and fishing.And they have the audacity to say our troops in Iraq hunting down terrorists are black booted thugs while the ATF and other Law Enforcement agencies relishes the thought of blowing off doors and pointing assault weapons down the throats of honest Americans in bed hoping they make what appears to be a wrong move O’Dark thirty in the morning getting there morning adrenalin high to get a body countThis is how they get their kicks!
I read the the link to the newspaper article. I would reserve judgement on this guy. Also it is rather amazing that the jury did not see that ATF even agreed it wasn't a MG according to the law. But Judges determine what juries see and hear, even though the constitution says that the jury is the "final" decider of all evidence and the outcome. That part of the constitution went out the window years ago. Owning books and reading them proves nothing. Though a gunsmith friend of mine warned to not have any books diagrams etc. of illegal weapons or conversion methods as ATF considers this "proof" of intent.Ryan I suggest you do a little more research on MR and MRs BHO.They are both multimillionaires and neither has had a high paying job? Give me a break! Plus the people they hang around with like Castro and Ayers aren't my cup of tea. Lets face facts neither party is concerned about the common man and there are other choices available.
Mclittle? Nice wordplay Coop... But really we're evading the pink elephant in the living room. Are both political parties now intent upon disarming the populace now that they've given all our money away in "foreign aid"? We have been trying to level the playing field in this global economy just to be nice and now we find ourselves losing the race and falling behind. Are we really stupid enough to think that anyone else would be so kind? I fully expect that Saudi Arabia and Dubai will start sending out billions for the good will hunting Obama and other Dumbocrats deem necessary for world peace... not.
I have an AR-15A1 and it has a two stage trigger, it sure feels and operates like a single stage what I was getting at. So Ok Dick Mclittle, shoot me punk for saying it sideways! Pull the trigger on a M1A or M14 and compare it to a M16 or AR15 and you will see the difference.
Hey all. This is disturbing. IF the evidence laid out by Mr. Dobbs is indeed what was used by ATFE for prosecution, this should be resolved quickly in favor of the accused. However, we will be unable to determine this until the sentencing hearing is complete and this case becomes a matter of public record. At that time, any lawyer out there worth his salt should apply for revue of the case to determine how much money will be generated by our illustrious government in the appeal case if it is overturned. The fact that a jury has returned the guilty verdict after trial is curious indeed, due to the inherent dangers prosecution would face. Folks, the bottom line here is this: There's a pole cat in the henhouse! This is FUBAR!
I've got an old M-1 Carbine that likes to spit out doubles and once in a blue moon triples when it gets really hot... should I just turn myself in to the local authorities as I am obviously a demented terrorist with criminal intentions? I like what Hank said.
You know, the more I look at the other coverage of this whole thing, the more it looks to me like this guy did in fact deliberately convert the rifle to fire on full auto. I'm no longer buying Lou Dobbs' take on this thing.I don't think that this is a bad guy or someone whom I would be afraid to have as a neighbor, but this does look like it could have been a deliberate conversion rather than the 'accidental misfire' that he's tried to claim. I think he was in violation of both the spirit and the letter of the law here. Maybe it's a dumb law and maybe it isn't, but he was in fact violating it.
Don’t you love the way people pick things apart! Clay said the trigger on the M-16 and AR -15 are single stage and I do understood what he was getting at. Too bad Dick Mcplenty was using the wrong head to think with! He was comparing this to the Garand and M14’s. The take up on the M16 and AR15 is far less than other military rifles. Clay is also correct on the subject of multiple bursts!
"...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."If you read "The Federalist Papers", you will find a statement by John Adams (I think) the says "The sword, and every other terrible implement of war, is the birthright of every American citizen." I have written this from memory, which may be inexact, but the meaning was clear. This is an unlawful conviction because the law regulating full auto or semi-auto fire is unconstitutional. The writers of the Second Amendment intended it to permanately grant to The People the capability to resist the Government. A government created by men to serve them....Sure even the SCOTUS may not agree, but any reader of the contemporary writngs of our founding fathers knows the truth. Trouble is, modern man thinks oppression is necessary for us to survive. How much can you tolerate? It will get worse, so maybe you will define your limit. Always does, historically.Maybe the idea of most folks owning military grade weapons makes you uncomfortable, but the truth is they all own deadly devices already. Cars, boats and knives are all over. What we keep forgetting is that most of us are good, and I'll arm everyone and take my chances that the good outnumber the bad any day. Remember all those places, like VA Tech, and think what the outcome would have been if just a few of the good guys were armed. I have more faith in my fellow man than most any polititian.What about you?
Thank you WAMtnhunter! I had a gut feeling that there was more to the story. BTW my Bushmaster has an unmarked 3rd position, but the safety will not turn in that direction. What surprised me the most is that liberal CNN actually took the guy's side. I also wondered if he had ties to any "special" groups and if the BATFE had been watching him already. Someone, I think Clay, mentioned trigger bounce also known by the popular term "bump firing". The BATFE does not consider bump firing illegal because technically you are only getting one shot per trigger pull which is firing semi-automatically, albeit a very fast semi-automatic.
Here is a local newspaper article about the Olofson case.http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=750464Sometimes, it is better to have the whole story before conclusions are drawn.
Oh yeah, I forgot: Why did the AR-15 in question have a third selector position? Mine doesn't...
Before you go off yelling at the BATFE (not that they don't need yelling at), consider the newspaper story in the link below and maybe consider that there is "the rest of the story". Or maybe do a little more research into the matter!http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=750464
First, a lot of good thoughtful comments on this board. Its nice to read compared to the dribble yelling matches at 'news' websites.Second - is anyone else really torn up about who to vote for? I am.The Republicans have screwed up. Really bad. In a lot of ways. And every time there is more evidence from the CIA that the WMD reason for the war was a falsification, I pray for Mr. Bush's soul, because he is going to answer for all of that spilled blood. And us too.But Obama? I happen to think, based on his personal history, that he really does want to do this country right. A man doesn't spend years in low paying non profits for nothing. But his voting record is all over the place, and I fear we will all be californicated after 8 years of democrats at the helm.And once that's done, I don't think there's ever going back.But this crew, that's been leading the nation for the past 8 years, I'll be surprised if they don't go down in history as the biggest bunch of ineffective crooks. Trust me, while the common man suffers, the military industrial establishment is doing great, big oil is doing great, the 'public servants' are doing great (they vote on their own raises you know). Everyone else gets screwed.Sorry for the venting.
There has to be more to this story. I cannot believe that even a jury of 12 morons would find a man guilty if he did absolutely nothing to the gun. The gray area might be if he was honing the trigger group to make it lighter, unaware of the possibility that the gun might double. In that case he should have taken the stand and spoken directly with the jury regards his mistake and intentions. Where is the NRA in all of this? If the guy was completely innocent and a travesty of justice had occurred I would expect the NRA would be beating the war drums now?
WILL DAVE OR SOMEONE HELP ME OUT. I LEARNED MANY YEARS AGO IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT THE JURY SYSTEM WAS SET UP AS THE LAST RESORT FOR BAD LAWS AND EVIL CONGRESS. BUT NOW THE JUDGES TELL THE JURORS TO GO BY THE LAWS ONLY AND NOTHING ELSE. SOMETHING ELSE.....A JURY OF OUR PEERS, IDON'T THINK SO.
Why is our Justice Dept doing this?Because that's what they do.They spend millions (billions?) of dollars gearing up in all that equipment, training to bust into peoples houses and grabbing whatever they can find to prosecute people. That's their job. They do it for no other reason but the fact that they can do it.They don't get paid to not find something. Their job is to find reasons to put people in jail. Period. Federal prosecutors are not interested in finding the truth. They are only interested in "winning" in court. That is how they are judged, by the number of people in jail.Not by finding the truth, not by preventing crimes against the people, not by protecting lives or property.This is they way your criminal justice system is set up.If you what to do something about it, first you have to understand what is really happening. The only reason we have police is to put together evidence for prosecution. They arrest people to put them in jail. They are not interested in anything else.That is all they are trained to do.
Paraphrasing the words of P.J. O'Rourke: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a carryout - not a government agency.
I seem to recall this topic coming up a month or so ago. Some astute poster filled in the other missings facts. If memory serves me they went something like this. "This wasn't his first running with the law over full auto weapons", "there was documents proving he knew this weapon would go full auto and lent it out knowing about this condition", he may have even modified it to do so. I don't remember the exact facts but the posting from a person who had local news reports and new the history of the case was vastly different from this version. Can someone who knows details regarding this case set the record straight??
ZermoidKnow how to tell if a politician is lying?His/her lips are moving!
Ther seems to be some facts missing on the CNN report, as there always is...He was charged with transferring a machine gun which would lead me to believe he sold the gun??? The user fired 800 rounds at the range? Who called ATFE? Did someone with access to Army M-16 parts install the burst trigger mod into the AR in question ?Hmmm. I'll wait for the rest of the story and not pass judgement based on comments. I have fired thousands of rounds through an M-16 and never had one fire multiple times on semi-auto mode. I never had an extremely dirty weapon either - because I cleaned it!But I'm sure the liberal drive-by media at CNN will save us all from a similar plight.
This is a very disturbing case. Juries can be bullied by the weight of the Federal Government. Another example of zelous agents of the BATF with a grudge against so called "assault rifles".
For some reason I cant watch the video but I can read all the comments. I am in the military and know for a fact that if you fire a whole bunch of rounds through an M-16 and your selector lever is on semi auto there is a chance that it will develop a mind of its own and blow through a whole magazine. I ran a range for 5 months while I was in Iraq and saw this happen multiple times. It is usually due to poor maintnence or extreme carbon build-up. As for the guy being found guilty....Just another example of what is wrong with the judicial system in this country. Politicians could care less what the people want.
And shouldn't there have to be proof that he intentionally modified the gun to fire multiple rounds?I had a 1911 pistol malfunction and clear a mag once, should I have been charged as well? The gun was a WWII bring back and after over 50 years of use the sear had worn, new hammer and sear corrected the problem, but to be charged criminally for a unforeseen malfunction of ANY mechanical device is absurd.
Every politician is a lying con artist who only cares about getting in office at any cost. If their pollsters told them endorsing communism and child sexual abuse would help get them elected they would do it with a smile on their face.
ChevJim, you are the only one who has it correct here! I find it funny how some people don't think they should blame the republicans for this. In my opinion if the republicans were so pro-gun rights they would have never had the ATF take this to trial since they are the party in control of the federal government departments. If they had not taken it to trial NO one else would have! This is just the beginning. If people think that we had a great victory in the Heller case they are sadly mistaken. One way or another (as in this case) we will have more gun restrictions in the future and not less no matter who gets elected president. You can all count on it!
I kind of hate to put it like this, but the jurors were douchebags, the US attorney is a douchebag, and the President is a douchebag for letting a US attorney like that anti-gun nut be appointed! Bush is the most clueless president since his father. I voted for the douchebag and I'm ashamed of it now. The guy has no idea of how agencies like the ATF are making life miserable for average Americans!
Clay I can't even phuckin' believe that you'd try and claim membership in the air farse shooting club and then be ignorant enough to try and claim the M-16 has a single stage trigger.Especially when you have companies like JP,jard and shilen to name a few, making single stage triggers specifically to replace the original two stage trigger.
Thats funny,every M-16 I shot in the army had a two stage trigger and the cadre trained instructed us on the use of that two stage trigger.Its not difficult to botch a trigger job and have an AR sporadically go full auto.Common enough that I know of two very good smiths who won't lighten OEM ar triggers anymore having had customers rifles firing multiple bursts with a single trigger pull.Also worked law enforcement long enough to see multiple dead bodies pulled from seat belts.When the newspaper reports those deaths,they conveniently leave out the seat belt part and just say "auto related fatality".Its only news worthy when you die without a seatbelt.
What’s that spring loaded device you install on an AR15 trigger guard that puts just enough pressure on the trigger to make a semi ROCK-N-ROLL?And it’s legal!
Hey brianWhat do you know about Military rifles?
Had jury duty 5 months ago and got tossed out because the attorneys tried to make us believe its ok to drive a Ford Van, pulling a loaded trailer with a load passengers and luggage, it’s perfectly ok not to wear a seat belt especially if it a inconvenience, pass out at the wheel, hit a guard rail, lose control, the Van rolls and it’s all Fords Motors fault!?I told them I never unbuckled a dead person and what part of, pull over if you’re too tired to drive!
brianwhat do you know anyhow!to bad it didn't happen to you!!
Any Veteran knows that when the right conditions which is rare to happen, you will get what appears to be multiple burst when in fact it is not!Every once in a while it happens on the firing line.First of all, the M16 and AR15 is a single stage trigger which does not have the two stage trigger we are accustomed on the M1 Garand and M14 and M1A.What really happens with this kind of scenario is the shooter squeezes the trigger and the first round is fired, the bolt and hammer instantly cycles with another round in the chamber and the hammer back in ready position all the same time the rifle is still recoiling back. Then as the rifles moves forward with the shooters finger applying just the right amount of pressure, pulls the trigger again and possibly again imitating full auto.Clay Cooper, USAF RetiredUSAF High Power Team
This is what happens when society starts falling apart.Without a doubt the most powerful individual in society if left unchecked is a law enforcement officer.Wether it be local,state or federal. The first officer on the scene has the ability to look the other way or go forward with a bogus charge and make it stick in many cases.Juries are selected not on their ability to think freely,but on their ability to be brainwashed by which ever side has the most money.This guy can't afford a hired team of guns in the court room,but the goverment can.I bird hunt with two attornies.One of them is an ex state prosecutor,turned defense attorney..The other is a highly successful defense attorney.One of the few things they agree on,is that the less evidence or proof the prosecution has in a court case,the harder they will push for a conviction.Because they know full well that the whole case rides on them bluffing and baffling the jury with circumstance and bullsh!t. Good evidence stands on its own two feet and the human nature of the prosecution is to not push the jury as hard.
Unbelieveable!As Mike R said, contact the Pres, all Senators & Congressmen!You may be next!!!
GuysA jury convicted this guy. Why, what evidences were presented to them that didn't get on Lou Dobbs? Certainly based on the report the guy didn't do anything illegal.Current climate in Wisconsin with several 'Assault Rifle' multiple homicides in the vicinity recently including the one last week may be part of the jury's influences -- however wrongly applied.If the report we saw was unbiased and accurate then I would pray the man gets his conviction reversed, the senior BATFE Agent in charge disciplined and the man gets his guns and rights restored. If there is more than Mr. Dobbs' reports gave then let the chips fall justly!SA
An old joke among the farmers in Arkansas where I grew was "Hi, I from the goverment and I'm here to help."The prosecuters obviously stacked the jury with people who had no firearms knowledge.Yes, the defense was inept. Can the NRA send help?Lesson to all and was sage advise from my dad also "Never loan your gun out without you being present in its use". You never know a person until you see how he handles a firearm. Frankly there are too many who think they know it all. To me, shooting 800 rounds in a borrowed gun is abuse.BATF has a history in rabid enforcement of gun laws against people who have little or no means to fight back.But don't worry Obama is here to help.........uh, not!
Dr.RThats what I was trying to say but to much to put into words. Mind boggling? No, not considering the ATF was involved.I still think something else was involved that may not being said and atf did have reason, but I sincerely doubt it.
I just have that queasy old feeling that if it happened to him, it could happen to me. I just read an article on foxnews.com about a 17 year old kid who actually was up to something (i.e. having weapons underage and plans detailing the president's motorcade).http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,398403,00.htmlWhat was scary was that he had 4 military style rifles (the news article referred to them as "assault weapons") and was charged with stockpiling weapons. When does firearm "collecting" become "stockpiling" or is the definition at the whim of the government? It appears that the kid was up to no good, but what stood out was the fact that he was charged with stockpiling weapons and ammunition.
This is so mind boggling I can't even comment until I calm down. The world is changing. The world is changing fast...
This guy must've had the worse lawyer in the world. With the poor track record the ATF has how in the world could a jury find him guilty? I just want to gag when I hear stories like this.
This is not a partisan issue. This is a case of a permanent bureaucracy insulated by civil service protections pursuing its own agenda regardless of the wishes of the temporary occupants of the White House or congress. Civil Service was the first great gvt. "reform," and replaced the nasty old "spoils system" which at least used to produce a change in gvt. with elections. It's also a good example of why anyone should run for their lives when they hear some politician call himself a "reformer." As soon as I'm off this forum, I plan to email everyone I know in D.C. and raise holy hell. I suggest that would be a good course for everyone to follow. The best immediate relief would be a full Presidential pardon, followed by legislation to prevent something like this from ever happening again. Long-term, sympathetic reps and senators should be urged to withhold BATF funding until such time as the agency itself drafts internal rules forbidding any prosecution involving the malfunction of otherwise legal arms.You can contact the White House at this website: http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/You can find your senator at this website: http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfmYou can find your representative at this website: http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW_by_State.shtmlYou may not believe it, but elected officials actually react to contacts from voters, particularly when those messages are written by individuals and not part of some organized campaign.
Good point SD Bob. Do they have moles at the ranges?
If an oppinion on this matter is formulated strictly with what's being reported on these two video's, it'd be hard to believe the authorities are doing the right thing! Seems to me something is missing? My question is how the hell did the BATF&E ever find out that one gun launched 4 bullets in 2 pulls of the trigger?
The fact of the matter is, Obama and McCain both support whatever their polling/focus groups tell them to.This is about getting elected. Period.Jim
jackson -You are wrong about Obama supporting Heller. He doesn't. He's trying to have it both ways. He firmly believes that guns ought to be strictly regulated in places like DC and Chicago. Read his statement. A rational and straightforward analysis proves his hypocrisy on this. I read his statements and determined that he does not support Heller. He supports regulated gun ownership for hunting and target shooting. He does not support ownership for self-defense. If he did - he would have said as much. He does not believe gun-owners in DC should have the same rights as gun-owners in the rural west. That's hardly a ringing endorsement of 2A.You are also wrong about Democrats being the party of gun owners. It's a laughable assertion. Citing a small handful of Democrats who are gun owners and hunters is not proof of such a claim. Look to any urban government (from small city to large metro). If it's run by Democrats (which it most likely is) you will find an overwhelming tilt against gun ownership.
Postscript; anybody besides me every have a side-by-side shotgun 'double' on him? Two shots with one trigger pull = prison in the above case; the ATF had no shame there. So I guess they're making space for me in the King George Hotel as well.
This is not a Democrat-Republican issue. Ruby Ridge happened under Bush I: Waco, Clinton.What is significant here is that a JURY found this man guilty. Twelve of our fellow citizens heard about a gun that malfunctioned. There was no intent, no criminality, no motive for any wrongdoing involved. There was no harm done by the malfunction. And yet a family man who has served his country well now faces prison because of it.We have jury trials because the point of a trial is not the letter of the law; it is justice. If he had been driving a car and the brakes had suddenly failed, he would have been exonerated even if someone was hurt or killed. Yet because a legally owned gun was involved, twelve Americans thought that bringing down a verdict of 'guilty' was needed to balance the scales of justice. A gun being fired at the range malfunctioned, and only prison can answer. God help the republic.
Note that the BATFE is run by Republican political appointees, and that all US Attorneys are also Republican political appointees.They answer to the Republican President who ran for office promising that he would sign a renewal of the 'assault weapons' act; the same Republican President who instructed other Republican political appointees to support DC over Heller in that landmark SCOTUS case.Compare this to the Democratic party which has produced a nominee who supported and endorsed the Heller ruling. The same Democratic party that is today pushing legislation in the House to strike down all of DC's handgun laws and specifically permit the ownership of semi-automatic handguns in DC. Meanwhile, it's also a Democratic Senator (Jim Webb) who is pushing to allow legally concealed weapons in National Parks.Let's face the facts here; the idea that the Republican Party is the 'Second Amendment party' and that the Democratic Party is the 'anti' party is hopelessly outdated. Maybe it was true 10 or 15 years ago. Not anymore.
AND YOU ALL WERE WORRIED ABOUT THE DEMOCRATS TAKING YOUR GUNS!
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