Hey, yall left out my favorite-1978 ford fairmont! Just accidently bump them enough to break both back legs below the joint, jump out & chase & tackle it and then lay across it while a neighbor shoots it in the head. Good thing that fellow shot it because if i had loaded that thing alive, my car would be ragged out worse than it was. I couldn't get my wife to help me neither- before it was shot i had to pull that thing by myself(tug-a-war) and even got a lense knocked out of my glasses where it head butted me. When i layed across it to rest, it would also rest-i don't think i squashed it or it would have struggled. That's the story of my first deer, and i was determined to get that critter even if it killed me. A mag-light is also a deadly weapon. I've eaten 2 deer killed by one-both of them were accidently hit by the same person's vehicle enough to daze them and before they could get up and run off they were intercepted with the mag-light. This is all true and i could of went into more detail but i figured i was long winded enough. Thanks for letting me post. The often imitated- never duplicated, "redneck 185" (also my cb handle).

Hey, yall left out my favorite-1978 ford fairmont! Just accidently bump them enough to break both back legs below the joint, jump out & chase & tackle it and then lay across it while a neighbor shoots it in the head. Good thing that fellow shot it because if i had loaded that thing alive, my car would be ragged out worse than it was. I couldn't get my wife to help me neither- before it was shot i had to pull that thing by myself(tug-a-war) and even got a lense knocked out of my glasses where it head butted me. When i layed across it to rest, it would also rest-i don't think i squashed it or it would have struggled. That's the story of my first deer, and i was determined to get that critter even if it killed me. A mag-light is also a deadly weapon. I've eaten 2 deer killed by one-both of them were accidently hit by the same person's vehicle enough to daze them and before they could get up and run off they were intercepted with the mag-light. This is all true and i could of went into more detail but i figured i was long winded enough. Thanks for letting me post. The often imitated- never duplicated, "redneck 185" (also my cb handle).

Having been born in and having lived in Texas all my life, I have shot more whitetail deer than I can honestly remember and have been in on the shooting of many more. Dave is right. It really doesn't make much difference what you shoot them with as long as the gun is reasonably powerful (6mm & up), you hit them in the right spot and the bullet performs adequately. At the same time, different deer react differently to being hit. I shot three deer one season many years ago with a 140 grain ballistic tip handloaded to about 2,850 in my 7X57. All were hit broadside in the lungs at a distance of less than 50-yards. One standing buck went down as if the earth had been jerked from under him, a spooked and running doe went about 25 yards and one young buck charged up with testerone that came running to doe scent was literally lifted off the ground and flipped upside down. Even so, with both front shoulders broken, both lungs shredded and his heart blown up, he went 40 yards on his hind legs before going down. The trail looked like someone had been pouring blood out of a 5-gallon paint bucket. All told I killed about 30 deer or so with that rig and most went down immediately. On the other hand, the only deer I ever lost, a forkhorn, was shot in the lungs with the same bullet. He did not react at all to the shot and ran away like a scalded cat. I was pretty young then though still diligent, and could find no blood or hair. After looking in ever-widening circles in pretty thick stuff for about a quarter mile I finally gave up, even though I had been positive of my sight picture. I found him a year later half a mile from where I shot him, with enough hide on him to tell that the bullet had utterly failed to expand and had driven clear through him. The hide evidently shifted enough when he ran to plug the small exit hole. It taught me two things. One, never quit looking if you're sure of your shot picture. Two, bullet performance has more to do with killing power than caliber or anything else. The other 80-90 deer or so I've personally taken were shot with, variously, a .270 (130 gr.), 30-06 (150 gr.), .300 Savage, .250 Savage (100 gr) and .243 (100 gr.). None ever went more than 25 yards -- until last year. This time, the buck went down like a stone, then jumped up 5-minutes after I thought he was dead and went another 40 yards before expiring. Once again, the bullet -- this time from my .270 -- had failed to open up. First bullet failure since the first time, and this from a caliber that has killed every critter on the continent. The buck weighed all of 90-pounds on the hoof. I think the only reason he went down at first was because of the placement, high in the lungs and near the spine, with the spine being the key.

Over the last 40 years I've shot a lot of whitetails and muleys, and Dave's right: Deer aren't particularly tough; within reason, just about anything will work fine.I've only had problems twice. I tagged a forkhorn whitetail running at about 30 yards with an M92 Browning .44 carbine shooting factory Remington 240 gr softpoints. Hit him right behind the point of the shoulder going slightly away. A perfect shot and he rolled like a shotgunned bunny. Then he hopped back up and I gave him an 'antler loosener' to put him down (bad idea, I had to drag him a mile with no handy handles).Dressing him out I found that the first shot had torn a palm-sized patch of hair and hide off his ribs and shot the rib meat full of tiny fragments of lead and jacket material. On the inside he had three or four ribs caved in like he'd been punched by Muhammad Ali, but not a single fragment of the bullet had penetrated the rib cage. Not One Fragment.Since then, I've acquired a chronograph and learned that the 18" barrel of that carbine gives a bullet at least 500 fps more velocity than any of my handguns. I was simply pushing the bullet far faster than it was designed to go and it blew up. (There's a lesson here somewhere for the Remingchesterby Magnum crowd.)Other one was with a 6mm Remington M700 BDL loaded with 100 gr Sierras. My sister took a long shot, about 300 yards, at a big whitetail buck and hit him a little too far forward and a little too low. I tracked that bugger through the cattail swamp all day following a trail of bubbly lung blood. Finally jumped him in late afternoon, whereupon he ran over the dike, jumped in, and swam the Missouri River to make his getaway.I've before and since killed several deer and antelope with that same gun and load, with no problem whatever, so all I can say is 'shot placement really counts'.I have noted one peculiarity with the 6mm/.243 that gets it a bad rap. Over and over I've heard that 'the bullet didn't expand' out of these rifles. The deer still dropped in a reasonable distance, but the bullet just made pencil-sized holes in the hide coming and going. And I've observed those pencil-sized holes myself so they're not blowing smoke. BUT, somehow the bullet still turned the deer's lungs into something that reminds me of the jello and whipped cream dessert stuff grandma used to make.I think the bullets are expanding just fine, they're just not tearing a gapping hole in the hide at the exit. That can be a problem if you need a good blood trail to track by, but if you put the shot in the right place you won't have to track them far so, again, shot placement is paramount.

Bubba. I tried the webb site for the Mule-deer Assc. and the site is not available for time being. Said was temporary down. So will re-check weekly and see if comes up. Thanks for the info. Maybe can arrange a trip next fall. This year I;m all booked for the Rockies and Va and N.C. Never hunted Texas, would be a change for me. Just wish big game season was open year around, not just fall. I will not hunt a fenced farm, don;t go for that type of hunting. But with access to hunting property, could be soon that canned hunts is about all left.Again thanks for the info.Old Gunslinger down south

Got a point Dr. R.I really don't think the gun matters as much as the instructions recieved! AND all kids have different personalities.You just kinda have to feel them out.Bubba

SABolt guns are nice, period. My "first" gun was a Stevens single shot 20ga. It was easy and safe. Didn't take me long to realize that each shot took a precise set of steps, not just jack bolt. Wasn't hard to see or feel to tell if hammer was back or not! (safe!)DocAgree with SA. (well, for the most part!) No semi-auto for "first gun"! I was a squirrel killing dude with my little Stevens 20ga. Being a single shot, I knew I had to make each shot count. When I progressed to dad's Mod 12 Win, my percentage of ammo burned to game bagged really went south!Once again, just MY personal opinions, NOT etched in stone facts!Bubba

Buy a 10/22 for any child as a first gun... it will take hands on training from dear old dad because they can be complicated and dangerous but they will absolutely love it. They are so much fun to shoot it will be hared to wipe the smile off their face. Don't be alarmed if their first inclination is to see how fast they can pull the trigger and empty the mag. Soon enough marksmanship will become a priority and all the Ruger 10/22's I have shot are excellent and they can still rattle off 30 rounds when they just want a rush.

Thanks Bubba:Will try the website you gave me and get info. Will let you know the results I get.Take care.

Richard R.I don't know about everyone else, but my choice for starting youth is the H&R / New England Firearms Handi-Rifle with a nice little 4X scope. It's single shot, they have to "think" to reload.Caliber is personal choice but some good one's might be:.243 Win.30-30 Win7 X 57 MauIf they are recoil sensitive, lead shot can be added to stock bolt hole under recoil pad. Weight helps absorb recoil.Bubba

I want to take my 12 year old daughter on her first deer youth hunt.Can anyone reccomend what type of gun she should use,that does not have much of a kick but still gets the job done.Thanks

why argue about caliber ?????it is all about placement and bullet construction !!!!!!!!!

RMHJust rec'vd info.Go to www.desert-muledeer-association.com. From what I've heard, they are a pretty good bunch of guys and will probably assist you or help you find someone that can accomodate you!Good luck, let me know how it goes!Bubba

Dickie, thanks for the information... Five of those deer were next to water, makes sense now. It's really bad here in Tennessee this year, first time I have seen anything like it. Unfortunately no drop in temperature in sight.

You tickle me Clay!Don't like powdered bone in your meat either!?The fact that you dare chronograph your loads tells me you load seriously.I don't have a 'graph but use loads (older Sierra manual) that pretty much simulate Win factory ammo. The days of 400 yard shots and trailing wounded deer in the dark are over for me. Now, 200 to 250 yards satisfies me for long range, and I practice often, because I handload. Besides, where I hunt, you can't see much further than that. If I see a whopper buck at 300 to 400 yards, I know where he lives. I merely adjust my hunting area! If he was just passing through, someone else will get a chance at him!Was that you or someone else that said, "It ain't the Indian, it's the arrow!" or something like that?My arrow is still sharp and true, the old Indian is just a little shaky these days!RMHMy youngest lives in Alpine, Texas down near the Big Bend area.There is a Desert Mule Deer association or something there that she did some work for. I'll see if I can get you a name or number. You do realize that the Desert mulie is not the hoss the Mountain mulie is don't you? They're smaller. The Alpine area also has a population of aoudad. They are absolutely awesome!! Don't know if they allow hunting or not. Palo Dura canyon in the Panhandle also has an aoudad population. It is a sheep (?) native to the Middle East.Bubba

AMEN BROTHER BUBBA!Went out and chronographed my 30-06 and 25-06 loads today. 30-06 150 grain Hornady SST with 22 inch barrel 3087fps, 25-06 24 inch barrel 117 grain Hornady SST 3280 and 120 Nosler Partition 3275 fps. Bolt gun load only!

Try a .30/.340 Wby pill on a whitetail...watch the fur fly!I have seen it, and it's not a pretty sight when the smoke clears.;o)unless you enjoy that sort of terminal ballistics damage...like I myself do.

Clay,The name doesn't make a man! The man makes the name!!Bubba is considered by some to be the epitomy of "good ol' boy" here in the South. I think sometimes Foxworthy is correct, maybe I should just sign "Redneck"! (A glorious absence of sophistication!)To Posted by: (?)No, but I've personally seen what a 130 gr Sierra BTSP in .277 calibre will do to a muley at a hunnert yards!! I'm sure both were dead!Clay, no offense taken. If we can't laugh at ourselves, we can't truly laugh at others. If we can't laugh, why live? Life is tough enough without some laughter!!Bubba (and proud of it!)

When I was young, I loved the 300 Win Mag with super max loads. The older I got, the more I loved my 25-06. Figure that one out? Am I getting smarter or crankier with age??

Had an old buddy, rest his soul, five foot nine on his best day. Put a brick in his back pocket and he might go 165 lbs. Wouldn't shoot nuthin' but a .300 Win Mag.White tails, elk, mulies, squirrels, made no diff to him! ...and could he ever shoot!!Knew another local who hunted whitetails with a .458 Win Mag. He is my friends height but probably 10-15 lbs lighter. BUT, he loaded it down to .45-70!!He just liked (not shoot) big guns!Bubba

Hey!!!I resemble that remark!!I don't have an identity crisis, my mama and my wife still recognize me despite the plastic surgery!!Also refered to as Bubba by a sister.Bubba

Could Bubba be Clay?Ya’Right!I don’t have a identity crises to go by a fictitious name.Only person calls me Bubba, is my Sister that works the Army Corps of Engineer.NO FEAR, She says!Who needs backup when I got my BUBBA!

Clay "might" be a Bubba, but Bubba ain't a Clay!Decided since today was opening day, would go sit in blind anyway!Musta been a hunnert and ten in that sucker! Had a double beard tom within 7 yards, passed. Just knew that old big doe and her yearling would come by. Saw about eight of landowners cattle! Why didn't I just shoot the turkey and go home?Bubba

Drive up to a wheat field here in the Texas Panhandle and you will see dust trails going out the opposite way from you.-- that's the whitetails. The mule deer will stand there and look at you....dumber than a bucket of rocks. Want to try something challenging? Come hunt Texas pronghorn antelope in the Panhandle farming country.

As already mentioned by many before--Just about any gun/caliber is a deer gun so long as one shoots it well.I like my great-grand dad's Model 99 in .300 Savage simply for sentimental reasons. He came to the USA grateful that he could finally carry his own rifle and shoot food for the table; which, during the depression, was a boon for the whole family.

Silver ArrowYou are right, Clay must be out hunting or his computer crapped out! Good observation! Cheers

Well... I got a deer Saturday morning with this .270 from only 30 yards. I was in the field for about one hour before it was all over. 130gr bullet went in one side and out the other. Deer dropped like a bag of dirt right there. I'll have to agree, I can't imagine ever having the need to buy a magnum. Now I've got about 40lbs of meat in the fridge from one shot. It was a good weekend!

Re: Blue Tongue (not black, and not the technical name). My understanding is that it's a hemorrhagic disease that is spread by a mite (or midge, not sure which) that bites and infects the deer. They run high fevers and usually head for water where they die. Usually always fatal. First hard frost kills the mite/midge and it's over for the season. KY has it very bad this year, worst on record, and throughout the State. I first ran in to it years ago out in Montana. We'd find literally hundreds of dead whitetails (and some tremendous racks) along miles of the Tongue River; and it doesn't differentiate between bucks and does. Most of them would die in the water, where they'd go to cool down from the fever. It doesn't seem to affect Mule deer, only whitetails. They don't know what causes it (mites/midges spread it) or how to cure it, it just has to run it's course. But hot, dry weather (that's KY this year) seems to make it worse once it takes off. Someone out there with more technical knowledge can explain it better than I have. If you've got it in your area, hope for an early frost.

I also read about the black/blue tongue disease in N.C.Mtns. Several hundred have been found dead from this disease caused by some type fly. Understand this occurs when we have extreme dry weather conditions, and that we have had this year. I hope most of those dead dear were Does as we got plenty of them. Saw 16 deer two nights ago in one field, and only one with visible horns could I see. Here we can take 6 deer, 2 bucks and 4 does. But sadly here in my area, any deer with a horn period is shot and the does walk. Wish we had the earn a buck system, at least some does would be taken. AS for all around w-tail gun for any distance, my vote goes to my Rem 700 25-06 using Winchester Ballastic tips, but at close range I use the Rem 120 gr,. Corelokt. Last year in Montana was Elk/Deer hunting with a 700 CDL in 06 and was using the Scricco l80 gr bullets. I did shoot a nice 4 x 4 Deer at 345 yds. Bullet entered at last rib on left side and exited the right front shoulder, deer fell in its tracts. So again, it all depends on distance and calibers that work for you. I feel the 25-06 would have been as effective, but as was hunting Elk also, the 25-06 a tad small for those boys. AS the old saying is yet true, if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. Just hunt as much as you can, because one day soon, you gonna be old like me and your hunting will be limited. If you even think of going to the Rockies to hunt, go now. If you wait till all is perfect, you will be like me, wait to late. If my health permitted it, I would hunt the Rockies in every state I could buy tags for. That is some awsome scenery out there. Its worth the trip just to sit upon a high ridge and look around. If game comes your way, thats a bonus. Good hunting guys. Shoot more and more often.

Has anyone heard of Black Tongue or Blue Tongue Disease in deer? Supposedly it has hit epidemic proportions this year because it is carried by a specific fly that thrives in extremely hot dry conditions. I had read about it but now that I have spent the last two weekends in the woods and have found seven dead deer I am worried. I have not found this many carcasses in the woods in the last forty years... talking about watching the deer drop! If I can find anything out I will let you know.Good news is the Red Oaks have acorns, just not the White oaks. Unfortunately the White's acorns are usually twice as big as the Red's so food will be at a premium. That is if all the deer don't die from this so called black tongue disease first. If nothing else it makes a good excuse for getting skunked my first two weekends in the woods, but at least a good time was had by all and I got to spend time with my old Namvet buddy.

Hey all,There has been some great words spoken in this particular thread. But no one has mentioned black powder rifles yet. So, please kindly allow me to be the first. I have been shooting black powder rifles (read flintlocks) for years. Also modern centerfires, but there is a certain part of me that likes to get back to a simpler time. I know, it's significantly more difficult to do this type of hunting and not many pursue it. However, to me, it is ever so much more rewarding when you stalk to get close and, using a traditional weapon, kill like our great great great granddaddy did. I will not totally forsake the cartridge gun fad that is the current rage today. The longest shot I've ever made on a whitetail was a measured 386 yds. Did it off of a tree branch with a Remington 721 in 30-06 shooting a handloaded 165 gr. Sierra GameKing in front of 47.1 gr. of 4064. The deer dropped where it stood. I was happy with that performance. Surgical precision can be had if desired. The Indians used to have a saying about death which mentioned never realizing you're dead. One instant in a grove of aspen, the next instant, you're in the spirit world. Sending a deer to its reward with a flintlock allows me a little more contact with that peace you get when in the great natural world.

Somebody go look up the ballistics on a 7mm Rem Mag and a .270 Win. Now explain to me how burning that much more powder for so little gain is worth that much pain and noise.Guy argued with me forever that his .270 Wby Mag was superior to my .270 Win. I showed him the loading manual. To achieve the same ballistics with the same bullet took almost one-third MORE powder with the Wby plus using mag primers! He didn't care, his Wby was still better!! Facts didn't mean squat to him, only the ring around the cartridge base!Hey Greg,S.A., sound like some NJ politicos we've been hearing about?Bubba

Dave, you must be a pretty darn good shot.More than killing power, killing skill is what really matters. Dare I say, size doesn't really matter? Within reasonable limits. My grandmother once took a moose with a .22 bullet behind it's ear. But that was during the depression years, they were hungry, and she was raising my father on her own. Amazing what can be done when hunting for sustenance vs. sport.Times do change. A hunter's choices change. Whether it's what to hunt with, or whether to hunt. Many of the basics get forgotten about. The how, what, when, where, why, to shoot and hunt. Even though there are many advances in shooting and hunting, I think the advances leave us subject to forgetting what really matters. Maybe the use of larger cartridges makes one more inclined to pull the trigger, rather than squeeze it. so to speak. Hence all the comments about deer getting up after being shot.I try to shoot deer the way I take my scotch. Neat.

"Whitetails are for guys who are too fat to hunt Mulies"Yea, right. Whitetails are for guys that dont have Mulies in their area.

The problem with the magnums is that the bullet jackets are often a little too thick to allow rapid expansion of the bullet. I started using a .300 Weatherby after a 10-point buck ran 40 yards after being hit five times with my .270. But it wasn't really necessary. Yeah, I shot that deer five times using a bolt-action Model 70--time slowed down, it seemed, while I was working the stiff bolt of a 1964 Model 70. The last deer I shot was a five-pointer hit with a borrowed .257 Weatherby. The scope was a 6X-14X, or something like that, and when the deer came through a line of trees he was so close that I could see only fur in scope, and I hit hit a little far back. He ran 50 yards and collapsed after jumping a fence. If I had hit him exactly right, I'm sure he would have gone down right then and there. The rifle was a converted Mauser, and when I was trying to jack another cartridge into the chamber, the round got stuck. Watch those conversions, folks! A military Mauser isn't designed for high pressures, and a fat belted cartridge needs adjustments to the feed rails! Still, it was enough and the deer didn't get away. There's nothing like a deer dropping right at the shot, and in order to accomplish that the deer can't be frightened and you have to hit the deer right. By the way, Jim Carmichel once published a piece on what he called hydro-dynamic shock. It appears that a BIG determinant of how fast the deer or other animal goes down is where its heart is in the pump cycle when the bullet hits. If the bullet hits when the heart is in the midst of pumping, the blood vessels are full and shock can be transmitted more fully--resulted in the rupturing of the vessels. If the heart is "between pumps," you won't get the same traumatic effect. Now maybe some company will come up with a device to listen to the deer's heartbeats and compute time of flight for the bullet, etc., so that the bullet impacts the deer's body at the precise instant needed to effect "hydro-dynamic shock."

Bubba,Actually, I was careless with my words: I wrote "larger bullet", but what I really intended to say was "heavier bullet". Don't know if you agree or not, but at any rate that's what I meant.

A couple of years ago I shot a nice heavy buck at 235 yards(measured after the shot) across a cornfield with a 6/284 with a 105 grain Nosler Partition in a Ruger #1. All I saw in the scope after the shot was four feet pointing up. That deer never took a step. The bullet went completely through him and tore his heart apart. The following year I shot another buck at about 30 yards with a 6.5/284. He was also heart shot but required a second shot. Go figure. I'm convinced that one doesn't need super magnums to effectively take deer. They're thin-skinned and light-boned animals. A well placed shot will bring them down reliably.

My wife have hunted mule deer here in northwest NE for over forty yrs. She uses handloaded 105 speers in her 243---I use 130 handloaded 130 hornady's ---we spend lots of time at the range and hunting coyote's durning the year--makes the shot placement easy---we've never lost a deer--most der drop within 5 yards of being hit

I have hunted a lot of deer, I think a 243 is a little on the light side but a good shot from a 243 is better that a bad shot from a Magnum.I have seen a lot of whitetail get up and run away from 7mm Mags and 300 Mags.My 260 Rem, 270, 7mm-08, 308, 30-06, and especially my 30-30 have yet to have that problem.Mule Deer are EXTREMELY STUPID compaired to a whitetale. Dragging a dead one out of the Badlands really sucks though.....not for fat guys.

Over a decade ago before I moved from Mississippi to Wyoming I was "out west" visiting my soon to be best friend Bud Brewer on his ranch in Montana. We talked about many things which eventually lead to my question as to what was his preference from a rifle filled gun room for a deer rifle. His answer was simply "Hell son any rifle is a deer rifle." He had killed hundreds of whitetails, mulies, antelope, plus a few elk in addition to having guided hunters for years.

I was out last weekend too... 91 and the ticks and chiggers were fighting over my body. Nice patch of poison ivy on my right arm so I have been moved to the couch to sleep. Forecast is a low of 50 tonight. Yeeeee haw!! I like the fixed blades non-mechanical tri-cor tip. By the way, I'm a Johnny Reb too. Love them Tennessee hills and hollows.

How about Easton and Muzzy combo? That's what I've got in my truck and will be heading out at 3:30 AM. May the force be with me...

Big JohnI don't have a problem with the .243. I truly feel that it is completely adequate for whitetail.... as long as you use the heavier bullet weights.Most .243's are sold as first guns for (sorry about this!!) women and kids. The problem here is; they don't learn to shoot them properly! ie: hit what they're shooting at!Breathe!Relax!Sight picture!Crosshairs in proper location!Breathe!Exhale slightly!Squeeze!Continue looking through scope and reload!More deer are probably lost due not to caliber, but improper shooting. Someone above said it best, "PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!"I am a handloader. I probably run five to seven hundred rounds a year through my old .270. I still missed one last year. I had to sit and think a minute. Finally crossed my mind, "I didn't squeeze!"I have also seen whitetails with their heart shot to absolute grape jelly and still run over one hundred yards.Good bullet + Good technique = meat in pot!Bubba