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Q:
Jim Carmichael of Outdoor Life fame was credited with saying, "Don't ever shoot your favorite hunting load over a chronograph, you'll be disappointed." What do you guys and gals think?

Question by Beekeeper. Uploaded on May 19, 2009

Answers (14)

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

Wasn't Jim talking about the disapointment you would feel on finding out the velocity isn't what you thought it would be? In my experience replicating the velocity given in reloading manuals is often hard if not impossible to do without blown primers, etc. Maybe Mr. Cooper can bloviate on the subject for us. He seems to be the expert on hot loads. Clay, what say you O reloading Guru? I'll wait under the porch.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

Now that chronographs are more affordable, and available to the general public, ammunition manufactures are less whimsical about their velocities. Perhaps, I should say more truthful.

I think Jim was trying to say the animals still went down, despite bad data..if you shoot carefully

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from Big O wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

Del you know this is my spot!(under the porch), cause I just thought I could "pee" like a big dog till I met you guys.

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from Reid Jones wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

well..my favorite load is the 220 swift. disappointment i think not. but i guess i really don't know. never tried it

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from ishawooa wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

I chrony all my loads and have been surprised in both directions. Actually I think all you guys are right especially since in the old days not many people had chronograph so whatever the manufacturers said was often taken for granted. Old Roy was a great hand at promoting his cartridges and rifles during this time frame. I do believe that Jim mainly inferred that even if your load was not at the velocity you might believe it still would kill your game handily if you selected the right components and could shoot. I am certain that Jim fired enough factory and reloaded ammo through a chronograph that he knew what was going on. I really miss reading his articles but still glance through some of his books from time to time.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

I remember that quote well. He was simply saying 'Don't believe factory claims about velocity. In fact, don't believe load manual claims'. He new what he was saying. There's to many variables. First thing I look at are my groups, cases, and then how easy the cases can be reformed and effort or lack of to insert the primer. If the primer inserts to easy after shooting a batch of max loads those loads may have been to much so throw them away the primers may fall out when chambering a newly loaded round. Above all don't feel you've done anything wrong by not achieving printed velocities.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

Jim Carmichael of Outdoor Life fame

IS FULL OF IT!

I TRULY LOVE MY HUNTING LOADS!!!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Del in KS wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

Move over Big. There's plenty of room under there for two.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from CPT BRAD wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

You know I'll give Jim two things he was a truely magical hunter and a very gifted writer. Back in the 70s and 80s which was his heyday most of the big manufactures flat out lied about velocity. Most were shot out of 28-30 inch barrels and then sold with 22 inchers. The same is true today as well. BUT to echo the aboves I believe that most reloading manuals are coming closer to reality while the big ones are still promoting the "NEW KIDS" like they did 50-60 years ago. Most of the short mags, ulra mags, super short mags will only duplicae or marginally improve upon a 50 year old cartrige. The manufactures are only trying to sell guns here. Hell they need to sell stuff just like everyone else. Don't blame them, I bought into the WSMs and WSSMs and some are better but most are not, but it does sell guns.

CB

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 47 weeks ago

Same goes for your bow. I was disappointed for sure. Still deadly though. I'm not too caught up in numbers.(Not a reloader). It's your favorite because it works, right? Sometimes numbers fail to tell the story.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 47 weeks ago

Del,

Yes, Mr. Carmichael was talking about velocity not being what you thought it would be. I'd say even after killing a barge full of game with a particular round/load the disappointment of lower than expected velocity still causes folks to go looking for something "better".

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from DakotaMan wrote 4 years 47 weeks ago

I suspect that Mr. Carmichael's opinion was based on people shooting factory ammo and the sparse availability of chronographs 20 years ago. People shot the factory loads and became believers in their favorite. To later discover that their favorite perhaps did not have the speed that was claimed might be a dissapointment. I have always reloaded and chronoed loads any way I could even before it was popular. I don't fall in love with a load for hunting until I know it is accurate and consistent and I depend on my chrono for that every time. I rarely shoot a factory load and I expect to get different results than the loading manuals becuase of the many variables in my personal rifle versus the one they used. I appreciate the load data the manuals offer and use it as a basis for working up my loads. I appreciate their load data enough to actually pay them for the manual.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from libertyfirst wrote 4 years 45 weeks ago

Velocity may be a disappointment occasionally but the value of a chronograph is the ability to measure the variation from load to load. Typically the closer the feet per second is the better the load will shoot. It doesn't hold true all the time but It's a pretty sure bet.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from rudyglove27 wrote 3 years 46 weeks ago

Agreed with DakotaMan and + 1 for you sir!!!

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

Wasn't Jim talking about the disapointment you would feel on finding out the velocity isn't what you thought it would be? In my experience replicating the velocity given in reloading manuals is often hard if not impossible to do without blown primers, etc. Maybe Mr. Cooper can bloviate on the subject for us. He seems to be the expert on hot loads. Clay, what say you O reloading Guru? I'll wait under the porch.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

Now that chronographs are more affordable, and available to the general public, ammunition manufactures are less whimsical about their velocities. Perhaps, I should say more truthful.

I think Jim was trying to say the animals still went down, despite bad data..if you shoot carefully

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Del in KS wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

Move over Big. There's plenty of room under there for two.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from CPT BRAD wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

You know I'll give Jim two things he was a truely magical hunter and a very gifted writer. Back in the 70s and 80s which was his heyday most of the big manufactures flat out lied about velocity. Most were shot out of 28-30 inch barrels and then sold with 22 inchers. The same is true today as well. BUT to echo the aboves I believe that most reloading manuals are coming closer to reality while the big ones are still promoting the "NEW KIDS" like they did 50-60 years ago. Most of the short mags, ulra mags, super short mags will only duplicae or marginally improve upon a 50 year old cartrige. The manufactures are only trying to sell guns here. Hell they need to sell stuff just like everyone else. Don't blame them, I bought into the WSMs and WSSMs and some are better but most are not, but it does sell guns.

CB

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

I remember that quote well. He was simply saying 'Don't believe factory claims about velocity. In fact, don't believe load manual claims'. He new what he was saying. There's to many variables. First thing I look at are my groups, cases, and then how easy the cases can be reformed and effort or lack of to insert the primer. If the primer inserts to easy after shooting a batch of max loads those loads may have been to much so throw them away the primers may fall out when chambering a newly loaded round. Above all don't feel you've done anything wrong by not achieving printed velocities.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Big O wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

Del you know this is my spot!(under the porch), cause I just thought I could "pee" like a big dog till I met you guys.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Reid Jones wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

well..my favorite load is the 220 swift. disappointment i think not. but i guess i really don't know. never tried it

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ishawooa wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

I chrony all my loads and have been surprised in both directions. Actually I think all you guys are right especially since in the old days not many people had chronograph so whatever the manufacturers said was often taken for granted. Old Roy was a great hand at promoting his cartridges and rifles during this time frame. I do believe that Jim mainly inferred that even if your load was not at the velocity you might believe it still would kill your game handily if you selected the right components and could shoot. I am certain that Jim fired enough factory and reloaded ammo through a chronograph that he knew what was going on. I really miss reading his articles but still glance through some of his books from time to time.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from steve182 wrote 4 years 47 weeks ago

Same goes for your bow. I was disappointed for sure. Still deadly though. I'm not too caught up in numbers.(Not a reloader). It's your favorite because it works, right? Sometimes numbers fail to tell the story.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 47 weeks ago

Del,

Yes, Mr. Carmichael was talking about velocity not being what you thought it would be. I'd say even after killing a barge full of game with a particular round/load the disappointment of lower than expected velocity still causes folks to go looking for something "better".

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from DakotaMan wrote 4 years 47 weeks ago

I suspect that Mr. Carmichael's opinion was based on people shooting factory ammo and the sparse availability of chronographs 20 years ago. People shot the factory loads and became believers in their favorite. To later discover that their favorite perhaps did not have the speed that was claimed might be a dissapointment. I have always reloaded and chronoed loads any way I could even before it was popular. I don't fall in love with a load for hunting until I know it is accurate and consistent and I depend on my chrono for that every time. I rarely shoot a factory load and I expect to get different results than the loading manuals becuase of the many variables in my personal rifle versus the one they used. I appreciate the load data the manuals offer and use it as a basis for working up my loads. I appreciate their load data enough to actually pay them for the manual.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from libertyfirst wrote 4 years 45 weeks ago

Velocity may be a disappointment occasionally but the value of a chronograph is the ability to measure the variation from load to load. Typically the closer the feet per second is the better the load will shoot. It doesn't hold true all the time but It's a pretty sure bet.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from rudyglove27 wrote 3 years 46 weeks ago

Agreed with DakotaMan and + 1 for you sir!!!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

Jim Carmichael of Outdoor Life fame

IS FULL OF IT!

I TRULY LOVE MY HUNTING LOADS!!!

0 Good Comment? | | Report

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