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Q:
i watched a guy on tv last night harvest a deer with his bow and he shot the deer at 60 yards.now if he harvest a deer at 60 yards with a bow why do most of think buckshot is not good past 40 yards.buckshot is moving 4 times faster than his arrow but only good for 20 yards less than an arrow.and in an magazine i saw one company said there slug gun was good out to a 100 yards if that is the case why do the makers of the BDC reticle scope go out to 250 yards if a slug couldnt kill a deer at that range they wouldnt make it go out that far.im going to be honest what i think the biggest problem is half of are not as goood of shot as you think you are.

Question by gman3186. Uploaded on August 12, 2009

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

before the disbelievers get her i am going to shoot deer and the ranges im comfortable with i know i have taken deer beyond 60,80 yards with buckshot if you are around me hunting when that 3 1/2 inch barks best put on your draggin shoes

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

when dder are running because of the dogs 40 yards shots are very unlikely

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from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Ggman3186,

First of all I will tell you not to beleive everything you see in advertising. I also must say that I believe you are just stirring the pot to see what kind of reactions you get. Since there are those here abouts who are obviously far less experienced and astute in observation than you are we should try and answer these questions for them. After all inquiring minds want to know...Now let's address these things in order:
______________________________________________________

1. Your 60 yard bow shot question... I've seen archers who are schooled on the tournament circut and are constantly practiced make shots longer than that on paper and plastic. I don't care how fast your bow is the flight time of the arrow to the mark at 60 yards is amazingly long. Flesh and blood creatures can move yards in that amount of time, gusts of wind and unseen objects can interfere with arrow flight, all these coming together for an arrow where we don't want it. The responsible archer doesn't take that shot. The TV hunter does to raise his ratings and make himself a hero to the viewers (obviously it worked). After all it is only a deer... right?
______________________________________________________

2. Buckshot is an imperfact sphere with no positive rotational forces acting on it to further stabilize its flight. Compound this with the fact the pellets are further distored going through the forcing cone and the barrels choke and the possibilities for erratic flight multiply as they do with smaller shot charges. As the these pellets fly forward they then to go their merry way, each and every one. 40 yards is about all that anyone can expect to keep them in a reasonable pattern. Buckshot kills from collective energy and tissue distruction as I'm certain you know. The fewer the pellets striking the animal in the lethal zone the less effective the load. Also, as distances increase the those small lead balls loose energy at a dramatic pace, thus lowering effectivness. Cause and effect you know.
______________________________________________________

3. The killing effect of an arrow is totally different than that of a firearm and high speed (relative) projectile. An arrow and broadhead combination kills by slicing tissue, blood vessels, et al to cause hemorrhaging and subsequent loss of blood pressure, unconsciousness and finally death. Mass and speed do weigh into the equation as far as trajectory and penetration potential go.
______________________________________________________

4. The makers of the BDC reticle are marketing their scope to those who want to shoot out to 250 yards. They are not indicating efficacy, merely indicating the parameters under which they designed the scope to operate. Sadly, operator error is not factored into the production of any scope!
______________________________________________________

5. As for the slug and the company that made it. The company has obviously tested the product and found that it is accurate and effective out to 100 yards. That is the limit of their guarantee of performance, thier line in the sand so to speak.
______________________________________________________

6. Finally, I am as good a shot as I think I am. That is the reason I set practical limits on how far I'll shoot at game. A 500 yard shot that I will joyfully take on a stationary target I will not take on a flesh and blood big game animal. We all have our limits and have to live by them. Or maybe we don't...? It is only a deer after all...

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from 2Poppa wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

You can have a .300 moving faster than anything you mentioned,and still not hit the deer,or hit the deer in the wrong place and still not take the deer.

Doesn't the buckshot produce a scattering effect?

If so,have you patterned your buchshot out to 60,80 yards?
Is it wider than a pie plate?

The arrow is a single projectile that pierces like a single "bullet" and opens a wider area that induces shock and blood letting to the animal.

The scattering effect of the buckshot,becomes wider,at greater distances,and,depending where it hit, may prove to be not as lethal.
If it is lethal, the scattering of the shot may slow the deer down, and may prolong the death of the animal,increasing tracking time and distance,and the demise of the deer.

The new slugs that are manufactured today, have all of the capabilities of a rifle out to the distance you indicated.

gman3186-
Is buckshot legal in your state, to harvest deer?

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

well my mossberg 835 with the oversized 10 gauge barrell must be a freak of nature and just hold a pattern better than other guns becuase at 75 yards shooting a 12 inch circle out of 18 pellets i will put at least 12 in it givin the fact that i have put adjustable sights on it and sighted it in i know for a fact my gun holds a great pattern from shooting many rounds threw it

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

have you patterned your buckshot at the 60 to 80 yd range you claim to be taking shots at?

How many pellets hit the vitals even with a perfectly aimed shot?

If you have gotten quick, clean deaths from shots like this, you (and the deer) are extremely lucky.

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

buckshot is legal here to harvest deer with in fact on some public proprty that is all you can use we are not allowed to use a rifles for hunting.where i hunt i could use slugs but like i have said before they run dogs here so slugs it out of the question

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

has anybody else taken deer with buckshot pass 60 yards we do it down here like its nothing and i can asure all of you i am not the only one taking these kind of shots

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from DakotaMan wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Wow! Great post Beeman... very thoughtful! Highlights for me:
arrows: most arrows from a 60#+ compound bow would penetrate a deer's vitals at 60 yards... the question is hitting them and risking tortuous maiming if you guessed wrong... the TV show probably didn't show the deer they hit in the guts and never found.
Buckshot: Same thing... buckshot would penetrate vitals at 60 yards... at that range the pattern is wide and getting unpredictable... the risk of an unpredictable shot is at its limit. It get unlikely that more than one pellet would hit vitals, reducing the odds of a clean kill.
Scopes/slugs: Same thing... a slug would kill if a vital area were hit at 250 yards... most slug/shotgun combos are just not accurate enough to hit a pie plate at 250 yards.
Overall, I just try to be humane to the deer I hunt and make sure that I have a quick clean hit of a vital area for sure.

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

some notes on beekeepers points,

#2 -
arrows are able to kill at VERY low speeds because they have razor sharp broad heads to do the damage for them. Buckshot is (ideally) a sphere, it needs sheer velocity in order to kill.

Furthermore, shot looses velocity like nobody's business for two reasons. First, its a sphere, which is a horribly un-aerodynamic shape, this means that the drag force slowing the shot down is very high. Second, the mass of each of those pellets is very low, so that drag force can easily change (lower) their velocity over an incredibly short period of time.

#5 -
The kinds of slugs that can reach out 100 or 200 yards are very different from buckshot for both of the reasons I listed above.

First, those kind of slugs are an extremely streamlined shape. They essentially look like a modern rifle bullet. This means that the drag force on the slug at any given velocity is MUCH lower (a couple multiples) than it would be if the slug was spherical.

Secondly, the slug is much heavier than any given shot pellet. This means that the drag force will take longer in order to slow it down. Since the air only has a few milliseconds to slow the round down before it gets to the target, the high mass means it can't change (lower) velocity much over that time.

This is the same reason why the .50 cal sniper rifle can stay supersonic out to such ridiculous ranges.

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from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Ken, keen insight from an engineer's point of view!

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from Hunter Savage wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

it was you who claimed to take only head shots correct
hum a 60 to 80 yard running head shot ?
it has been my experience in the past that those who boast the most normally have the least : )

btw . beekeeper great posting sir

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

you are right i do only take head shots it doesnt matter if there running i still shoot for the head what the worst that can happen shooting for a deers head on the run i miss and hit behind the shoulder.bottom line is i kill deer every year and we get 6 tags with are liscense and i use those tags and go get more bonus stamps so they distance i shoot and the way i shoot works for me if it isnt broke dont fix it

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from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Gman,

One well directed slug at a deer is potentially more harmful to a dog than a spray of buckshot? I don't follow.

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from 2Poppa wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Beekeeper-
Ken does have a mind for contrivance!
His thoughts are skillfully thought out,planned,managed and constructed every where on the site with expertise ...

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from 2Poppa wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

gman3186-
Have you "ever" shot at a deer and never recovered it?

Have you ever had to take more than just one shot to take a deer completely down?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Beekeeper

NOT BAD! A +1 for +1 you Sir!

From air guns now being used for big game hunting to archery to hand guns to long guns; it’s all about the ability to hit “MOP” at a given range. You can take two identical pieces of equipment and they just might operate totally different as two identical shotguns with the same barrel. One shooting a pattern almost like a rifle and the other can’t hit the side of the barn!

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Note to self...If anyone askes you to "run deer with dogs" politely decline and stay out of the woods in that area.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I've seen slug kills at 400 yards

GO FIGURE!

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Clay-

you saw someone shoot a shotgun slug at live game 400yds away?

Where was the scope zeroed? how much holdover and crosswind compensation was needed?

I have to figure in a solid 5 inches of holdover at 100yds when my slug gun in zeroed at 50. 400yds must need a few feet of holdover if it were zeroed at a reasonable range.

I think phil said recently that a 10 mph wind needs a few inches of windage compensation at 75 yds with a slug. How do you handle that at 400 yds with live game?

did you consider this a responsible shot?

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from Hunter Savage wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

gman
whats the worst that could happen ? oh well i dont know id have to think about that hummmm after all its just a deer . and they are just dogs .

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Gman,

So now you are asserting that you regularly, 6 times per year, make 80 yd running head shots with buckshot? and you assert that its so easy, you don't understand why everyone doesn't do it?

I'm sorry, but I'm raising my BS flag.

I believe that is possible for someone to acquire enough skill to make such a shot.

However, the amount of time and effort that would be needed to develop that skill would be so great, that there is no way such a person would claim that it is "easy" and not understand why everyone doesn't do it.

(Though there are so many variables involved beyond the shooters control that I'm not sure anyone, no matter how skilled, could make this shot consistently.)

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

ken.mcloud

NO LIE!

At Vandenberg AFB California, the most prime deer hunting on the planet is the shotgun only areas around the Base Flight Line and Missile Complexes. I watched my Father one of the Base Game Wardens go out with other Base Rod & Gun Club members to take part in special hunts to shoot as many deer as they can because the deer were running across the runway. It was normal to count over 120 deer in one hour!! Dad had a set of sights he installed on his Winchester Model 12 and shot it so much he was dropping deer at 400+ yards. He reloaded his own slugs and I don’t know what load he had but it had a muzzle flame at least 4-5 feet and shot like a rifle!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

ken.mcloud

Did you consider this a responsible shot?

OK

What did people do before range finders?

What did they do before mechanical releases, compound bows and having sights on those bows?

It’s called?

SKILL!

Skill as in Master Craftsmen doing precision without modern gadgetry!

Its more of a lost art now and how many times have you heard a person say it can’t be done and there Grandfather proves them flat out wrong!

How many times have I been on everybody’s case for using the word “practice”!

“How can you practice what you have not mastered?”

The art of obtaining perfection through Trial and error and to train to master that perfection!

If anyone still don’t get it, they have allot to learn!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

BUCKSHOT?

SPRAY AND PREY!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

One more thing
Those who hunted Vandenberg AFB Ca, they were not casual hunters!

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from SAND BAGGER wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Why do the makers of the BDC reticule scope go out to 250 yards? Same reasons Golfers have handicaps assigned to them! Slugs at 400 yards? Plausible! Grandfather is hell on deer at 300 yards with his 30 Rem pump!

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

i have never said that everytime i shoot i recover the animal and yes i have taken more than one shot to harvest an animal and i also never claimed that the 6 deer a year are all 80 yard running head shots and also one siad if dogs are running stay out of that area lmao the county is covered in dogs opening day i wish you all could see how our deer season is for yourself we dont get to sit in a stand all day and make 200 plus yards shots so we have make the shot happen we have to hustle on the ground to get infront of them im not claiming to be the best shot but i do my far share of harvesting yall must be shooting smooth bore shotguns

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

i have never said that everytime i shoot i recover the animal and yes i have taken more than one shot to harvest an animal and i also never claimed that the 6 deer a year are all 80 yard running head shots and also one siad if dogs are running stay out of that area lmao the county is covered in dogs opening day i wish you all could see how our deer season is for yourself we dont get to sit in a stand all day and make 200 plus yards shots so we have make the shot happen we have to hustle on the ground to get infront of them im not claiming to be the best shot but i do my far share of harvesting yall must be shooting smooth bore shotguns

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

opinions are like a**holes everybodies got one im a shoot deer the way i shoot deer you can shoot them how ever you like im not saying your way is wrong i just do things the way i do them i have hunted since i was 5 years old and this is what works for me

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from SAND BAGGER wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

BREATH GMAN!

BREATH!

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

im calm i can careless what people think but at the sametime im gonna say whats on mind

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

if you could "careless [sic] what other people think", why then did you solicit our opinions by posing a question on the site's "answers" section?

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

by the way, I find it more than a little disturbing how casually you admit that

"i have never said that everytime [sic] i shoot i recover the animal"

now there's sportsmen's ethics for ya!

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

so you telling me you recover the animal everytime you shoot

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from libertyfirst wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Beekeeper-excellent response! +1

gman- you have obviously been lucky with your long range buckshot exploits. This will not continue to happen and you will wound many animals with buckshot at the 80 yard range. I have witness on many occasions the festering wounds and broken legs caused by the careless use of buckshot on the magnificent deer that you and I both love to hunt. I would urge you to consider what happens to the animals that you do not recover and I assume that for every one you do kill you have an equal number run off to die a lingering death. Is this why we chose to be hunters? I'm not trying to judge you I'm only telling you what I know to be fact.

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from ggmack wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

that is why i practice field craft and shoot a box of slugs at 100 yards to ended every range session.

1. I do not need dogs to chase deer to me.
2. I practice to prevent 80 yard running shots.
3. I use a mossberg 500 rifle barrel
4. I shoot lightfields, hornady SSTs and 3" winchester OO buck.
hey gman, i think i found one of those lost deer of yours

last season I had a deer limp into the field i was hunting i ranged it at 125 yards. I took the shot and downed the deer.

upon recovery i saw 12 holes that looked like buckshot wounds in the hind quarter of the deer.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I hate to borrow other peoples material, but..."HERE'S YOUR SIGN"

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

you couldnt have found one of my deers becuase the holes would be in the neck or head and the meat on my table

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from Wonko wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

If memory serves me right gman you are in Virginia. I'm not commenting on shots taken or anything like that, but I do know they allow running dogs east of the Blue ridge here in Virginia, there are hunt clubs that have been around for going on 90 years that have always run dogs. I don't belong to a hunt club because I don't hunt with dogs, but it is legal here. I also know we have public lands that you can not hunt with any thing but archery equipment or shot guns with no slugs allowed. This is from the Virginia department of game web site. "It shall be unlawful to possess outside
of a vehicle, or shoot or hunt with a
rifle, muzzleloader, pistol, or shotgun
loaded with slugs, or to possess shotgun
slugs on Ragged Island Wildlife
Management Area in Isle of Wight
County."

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

as a matter of fact i hunt in isle of wight county born and raised in windsor virginia which is in isle of wight county im glad someone pointed out the fact about the dogs i dont belong to a club but still shoot the deer they run to me.

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from Wonko wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I'm in Newport News, I hunt the Carlisle Tract of Hog island and up at Chickahominy WMA.

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

thats cool i hunt on private property in windsor have you heard anything about the hogs out at back bay?

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from Wonko wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

No I haven't. I did find out while checking regs on the Virginia department of game web sight I don't think I can hunt with my rifles on Hog island or Chickahominy anymore.

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

what they stopped you from hunting with your rifle thats crazy they just open rifles in all of suffolk now and they still have the dogs i thought for sure since they open rifles in suffolk they would stop the dogs but i guess not

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from Wonko wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I was checking the regs, Isle of white and Surry Co. say no rifles for deer hunting.

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from shane wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

"i have never said that everytime i shoot i recover the animal"

Thanks for making our point for us.

We have a butcher on our hands. PETA loves people like this.

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

so shane everytime you pull the trigger you bring home the animal is seriously doubt it.have you ever lost an animal you have shot.alot of you are just buckshot bashers for all the bashers i would piss down your throat if your lungs were on fire

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

peta the same people they busted here last summer for throwing 30 dogs in a dumpster is that the group you are talking about.

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from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Gman,

Your "P-- down the throat comment was absolutely unnecessary.

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

as alot of people comments are unnecessary

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Gman,

I again, am more than a little disturbed. This time by the fact that you think wounding animals and letting them suffer is acceptable hunting behavior and that all hunters do it.

Also, I haven't seen anyone being a "buckshot basher". A number of us have acknowledged its limitations. All rounds have limitations.

finally, I haven't seen anyone on this thread get all worked up or out of line other than you, go back and read the posts if you don't believe me.

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

one mans limitations may be another mans begining you have acknowleded your own limitations not my own.all of you are just full of yourself.every guy wants to think he is better then the next

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

i never expected this question to get so much attention i just think its funny

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

when did i say wounding an animal is acceptable read my damn words carfully and think before you open your mouth

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

yall are trying to take my words and twist em up

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from Cgull wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Sorry but I truely belive buckshot for deer should be outlawed. There are far too many who belive they can kill outside an ethical range. I frequently find dead or wounded deer with buck shot. Many of the deer I've harvested had buckshot pellets beneath the skin. Of every deer killed with buckshot out to 80 yrds how many struggled for days only to die a slow agonizing death? Buckshot = 30-40 yards with an ethical hunter only. How many buckshot hunters are ethical?

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from libertyfirst wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

My friend who is the hound hunter for coyote has agreed to let me use his 835 28" bbl Mossberg and even to supply a little ammo for me. We're going to spent part of the day Sunday to see what we can do with this gun and all of his chokes at the 80 yard mark. Keep you posted.

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from Elmer Fudd wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

what a discussion!

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from RobinHood wrote 4 years 31 weeks ago

Stick to the sure thing, which is the ethical and safe shot, and you will rarely be dissappointed.

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 31 weeks ago

liberty first what happened to you using your friends 835 and posting your finds did the gun suprise you and you did not want to post it or did you not shoot the gun at all it has been 3 weeks im waiting for you to post your finds

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Post an Answer

from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Ggman3186,

First of all I will tell you not to beleive everything you see in advertising. I also must say that I believe you are just stirring the pot to see what kind of reactions you get. Since there are those here abouts who are obviously far less experienced and astute in observation than you are we should try and answer these questions for them. After all inquiring minds want to know...Now let's address these things in order:
______________________________________________________

1. Your 60 yard bow shot question... I've seen archers who are schooled on the tournament circut and are constantly practiced make shots longer than that on paper and plastic. I don't care how fast your bow is the flight time of the arrow to the mark at 60 yards is amazingly long. Flesh and blood creatures can move yards in that amount of time, gusts of wind and unseen objects can interfere with arrow flight, all these coming together for an arrow where we don't want it. The responsible archer doesn't take that shot. The TV hunter does to raise his ratings and make himself a hero to the viewers (obviously it worked). After all it is only a deer... right?
______________________________________________________

2. Buckshot is an imperfact sphere with no positive rotational forces acting on it to further stabilize its flight. Compound this with the fact the pellets are further distored going through the forcing cone and the barrels choke and the possibilities for erratic flight multiply as they do with smaller shot charges. As the these pellets fly forward they then to go their merry way, each and every one. 40 yards is about all that anyone can expect to keep them in a reasonable pattern. Buckshot kills from collective energy and tissue distruction as I'm certain you know. The fewer the pellets striking the animal in the lethal zone the less effective the load. Also, as distances increase the those small lead balls loose energy at a dramatic pace, thus lowering effectivness. Cause and effect you know.
______________________________________________________

3. The killing effect of an arrow is totally different than that of a firearm and high speed (relative) projectile. An arrow and broadhead combination kills by slicing tissue, blood vessels, et al to cause hemorrhaging and subsequent loss of blood pressure, unconsciousness and finally death. Mass and speed do weigh into the equation as far as trajectory and penetration potential go.
______________________________________________________

4. The makers of the BDC reticle are marketing their scope to those who want to shoot out to 250 yards. They are not indicating efficacy, merely indicating the parameters under which they designed the scope to operate. Sadly, operator error is not factored into the production of any scope!
______________________________________________________

5. As for the slug and the company that made it. The company has obviously tested the product and found that it is accurate and effective out to 100 yards. That is the limit of their guarantee of performance, thier line in the sand so to speak.
______________________________________________________

6. Finally, I am as good a shot as I think I am. That is the reason I set practical limits on how far I'll shoot at game. A 500 yard shot that I will joyfully take on a stationary target I will not take on a flesh and blood big game animal. We all have our limits and have to live by them. Or maybe we don't...? It is only a deer after all...

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from 2Poppa wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

You can have a .300 moving faster than anything you mentioned,and still not hit the deer,or hit the deer in the wrong place and still not take the deer.

Doesn't the buckshot produce a scattering effect?

If so,have you patterned your buchshot out to 60,80 yards?
Is it wider than a pie plate?

The arrow is a single projectile that pierces like a single "bullet" and opens a wider area that induces shock and blood letting to the animal.

The scattering effect of the buckshot,becomes wider,at greater distances,and,depending where it hit, may prove to be not as lethal.
If it is lethal, the scattering of the shot may slow the deer down, and may prolong the death of the animal,increasing tracking time and distance,and the demise of the deer.

The new slugs that are manufactured today, have all of the capabilities of a rifle out to the distance you indicated.

gman3186-
Is buckshot legal in your state, to harvest deer?

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

some notes on beekeepers points,

#2 -
arrows are able to kill at VERY low speeds because they have razor sharp broad heads to do the damage for them. Buckshot is (ideally) a sphere, it needs sheer velocity in order to kill.

Furthermore, shot looses velocity like nobody's business for two reasons. First, its a sphere, which is a horribly un-aerodynamic shape, this means that the drag force slowing the shot down is very high. Second, the mass of each of those pellets is very low, so that drag force can easily change (lower) their velocity over an incredibly short period of time.

#5 -
The kinds of slugs that can reach out 100 or 200 yards are very different from buckshot for both of the reasons I listed above.

First, those kind of slugs are an extremely streamlined shape. They essentially look like a modern rifle bullet. This means that the drag force on the slug at any given velocity is MUCH lower (a couple multiples) than it would be if the slug was spherical.

Secondly, the slug is much heavier than any given shot pellet. This means that the drag force will take longer in order to slow it down. Since the air only has a few milliseconds to slow the round down before it gets to the target, the high mass means it can't change (lower) velocity much over that time.

This is the same reason why the .50 cal sniper rifle can stay supersonic out to such ridiculous ranges.

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

have you patterned your buckshot at the 60 to 80 yd range you claim to be taking shots at?

How many pellets hit the vitals even with a perfectly aimed shot?

If you have gotten quick, clean deaths from shots like this, you (and the deer) are extremely lucky.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Note to self...If anyone askes you to "run deer with dogs" politely decline and stay out of the woods in that area.

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Gman,

So now you are asserting that you regularly, 6 times per year, make 80 yd running head shots with buckshot? and you assert that its so easy, you don't understand why everyone doesn't do it?

I'm sorry, but I'm raising my BS flag.

I believe that is possible for someone to acquire enough skill to make such a shot.

However, the amount of time and effort that would be needed to develop that skill would be so great, that there is no way such a person would claim that it is "easy" and not understand why everyone doesn't do it.

(Though there are so many variables involved beyond the shooters control that I'm not sure anyone, no matter how skilled, could make this shot consistently.)

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

by the way, I find it more than a little disturbing how casually you admit that

"i have never said that everytime [sic] i shoot i recover the animal"

now there's sportsmen's ethics for ya!

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from DakotaMan wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Wow! Great post Beeman... very thoughtful! Highlights for me:
arrows: most arrows from a 60#+ compound bow would penetrate a deer's vitals at 60 yards... the question is hitting them and risking tortuous maiming if you guessed wrong... the TV show probably didn't show the deer they hit in the guts and never found.
Buckshot: Same thing... buckshot would penetrate vitals at 60 yards... at that range the pattern is wide and getting unpredictable... the risk of an unpredictable shot is at its limit. It get unlikely that more than one pellet would hit vitals, reducing the odds of a clean kill.
Scopes/slugs: Same thing... a slug would kill if a vital area were hit at 250 yards... most slug/shotgun combos are just not accurate enough to hit a pie plate at 250 yards.
Overall, I just try to be humane to the deer I hunt and make sure that I have a quick clean hit of a vital area for sure.

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from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Ken, keen insight from an engineer's point of view!

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from Hunter Savage wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

it was you who claimed to take only head shots correct
hum a 60 to 80 yard running head shot ?
it has been my experience in the past that those who boast the most normally have the least : )

btw . beekeeper great posting sir

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from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Gman,

One well directed slug at a deer is potentially more harmful to a dog than a spray of buckshot? I don't follow.

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from 2Poppa wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Beekeeper-
Ken does have a mind for contrivance!
His thoughts are skillfully thought out,planned,managed and constructed every where on the site with expertise ...

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from Hunter Savage wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

gman
whats the worst that could happen ? oh well i dont know id have to think about that hummmm after all its just a deer . and they are just dogs .

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

ken.mcloud

Did you consider this a responsible shot?

OK

What did people do before range finders?

What did they do before mechanical releases, compound bows and having sights on those bows?

It’s called?

SKILL!

Skill as in Master Craftsmen doing precision without modern gadgetry!

Its more of a lost art now and how many times have you heard a person say it can’t be done and there Grandfather proves them flat out wrong!

How many times have I been on everybody’s case for using the word “practice”!

“How can you practice what you have not mastered?”

The art of obtaining perfection through Trial and error and to train to master that perfection!

If anyone still don’t get it, they have allot to learn!

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from libertyfirst wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Beekeeper-excellent response! +1

gman- you have obviously been lucky with your long range buckshot exploits. This will not continue to happen and you will wound many animals with buckshot at the 80 yard range. I have witness on many occasions the festering wounds and broken legs caused by the careless use of buckshot on the magnificent deer that you and I both love to hunt. I would urge you to consider what happens to the animals that you do not recover and I assume that for every one you do kill you have an equal number run off to die a lingering death. Is this why we chose to be hunters? I'm not trying to judge you I'm only telling you what I know to be fact.

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from 2Poppa wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

gman3186-
Have you "ever" shot at a deer and never recovered it?

Have you ever had to take more than just one shot to take a deer completely down?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Beekeeper

NOT BAD! A +1 for +1 you Sir!

From air guns now being used for big game hunting to archery to hand guns to long guns; it’s all about the ability to hit “MOP” at a given range. You can take two identical pieces of equipment and they just might operate totally different as two identical shotguns with the same barrel. One shooting a pattern almost like a rifle and the other can’t hit the side of the barn!

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Clay-

you saw someone shoot a shotgun slug at live game 400yds away?

Where was the scope zeroed? how much holdover and crosswind compensation was needed?

I have to figure in a solid 5 inches of holdover at 100yds when my slug gun in zeroed at 50. 400yds must need a few feet of holdover if it were zeroed at a reasonable range.

I think phil said recently that a 10 mph wind needs a few inches of windage compensation at 75 yds with a slug. How do you handle that at 400 yds with live game?

did you consider this a responsible shot?

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from SAND BAGGER wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

BREATH GMAN!

BREATH!

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

if you could "careless [sic] what other people think", why then did you solicit our opinions by posing a question on the site's "answers" section?

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I hate to borrow other peoples material, but..."HERE'S YOUR SIGN"

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from Wonko wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

If memory serves me right gman you are in Virginia. I'm not commenting on shots taken or anything like that, but I do know they allow running dogs east of the Blue ridge here in Virginia, there are hunt clubs that have been around for going on 90 years that have always run dogs. I don't belong to a hunt club because I don't hunt with dogs, but it is legal here. I also know we have public lands that you can not hunt with any thing but archery equipment or shot guns with no slugs allowed. This is from the Virginia department of game web site. "It shall be unlawful to possess outside
of a vehicle, or shoot or hunt with a
rifle, muzzleloader, pistol, or shotgun
loaded with slugs, or to possess shotgun
slugs on Ragged Island Wildlife
Management Area in Isle of Wight
County."

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

thats cool i hunt on private property in windsor have you heard anything about the hogs out at back bay?

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from Wonko wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

No I haven't. I did find out while checking regs on the Virginia department of game web sight I don't think I can hunt with my rifles on Hog island or Chickahominy anymore.

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from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Gman,

Your "P-- down the throat comment was absolutely unnecessary.

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Gman,

I again, am more than a little disturbed. This time by the fact that you think wounding animals and letting them suffer is acceptable hunting behavior and that all hunters do it.

Also, I haven't seen anyone being a "buckshot basher". A number of us have acknowledged its limitations. All rounds have limitations.

finally, I haven't seen anyone on this thread get all worked up or out of line other than you, go back and read the posts if you don't believe me.

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from Cgull wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Sorry but I truely belive buckshot for deer should be outlawed. There are far too many who belive they can kill outside an ethical range. I frequently find dead or wounded deer with buck shot. Many of the deer I've harvested had buckshot pellets beneath the skin. Of every deer killed with buckshot out to 80 yrds how many struggled for days only to die a slow agonizing death? Buckshot = 30-40 yards with an ethical hunter only. How many buckshot hunters are ethical?

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from libertyfirst wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

My friend who is the hound hunter for coyote has agreed to let me use his 835 28" bbl Mossberg and even to supply a little ammo for me. We're going to spent part of the day Sunday to see what we can do with this gun and all of his chokes at the 80 yard mark. Keep you posted.

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from Elmer Fudd wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

what a discussion!

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

before the disbelievers get her i am going to shoot deer and the ranges im comfortable with i know i have taken deer beyond 60,80 yards with buckshot if you are around me hunting when that 3 1/2 inch barks best put on your draggin shoes

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

when dder are running because of the dogs 40 yards shots are very unlikely

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

well my mossberg 835 with the oversized 10 gauge barrell must be a freak of nature and just hold a pattern better than other guns becuase at 75 yards shooting a 12 inch circle out of 18 pellets i will put at least 12 in it givin the fact that i have put adjustable sights on it and sighted it in i know for a fact my gun holds a great pattern from shooting many rounds threw it

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I've seen slug kills at 400 yards

GO FIGURE!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

ken.mcloud

NO LIE!

At Vandenberg AFB California, the most prime deer hunting on the planet is the shotgun only areas around the Base Flight Line and Missile Complexes. I watched my Father one of the Base Game Wardens go out with other Base Rod & Gun Club members to take part in special hunts to shoot as many deer as they can because the deer were running across the runway. It was normal to count over 120 deer in one hour!! Dad had a set of sights he installed on his Winchester Model 12 and shot it so much he was dropping deer at 400+ yards. He reloaded his own slugs and I don’t know what load he had but it had a muzzle flame at least 4-5 feet and shot like a rifle!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

BUCKSHOT?

SPRAY AND PREY!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

One more thing
Those who hunted Vandenberg AFB Ca, they were not casual hunters!

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from SAND BAGGER wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

Why do the makers of the BDC reticule scope go out to 250 yards? Same reasons Golfers have handicaps assigned to them! Slugs at 400 yards? Plausible! Grandfather is hell on deer at 300 yards with his 30 Rem pump!

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

as a matter of fact i hunt in isle of wight county born and raised in windsor virginia which is in isle of wight county im glad someone pointed out the fact about the dogs i dont belong to a club but still shoot the deer they run to me.

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from Wonko wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I'm in Newport News, I hunt the Carlisle Tract of Hog island and up at Chickahominy WMA.

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

what they stopped you from hunting with your rifle thats crazy they just open rifles in all of suffolk now and they still have the dogs i thought for sure since they open rifles in suffolk they would stop the dogs but i guess not

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from Wonko wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

I was checking the regs, Isle of white and Surry Co. say no rifles for deer hunting.

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from shane wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

"i have never said that everytime i shoot i recover the animal"

Thanks for making our point for us.

We have a butcher on our hands. PETA loves people like this.

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

peta the same people they busted here last summer for throwing 30 dogs in a dumpster is that the group you are talking about.

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

im calm i can careless what people think but at the sametime im gonna say whats on mind

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from ggmack wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

that is why i practice field craft and shoot a box of slugs at 100 yards to ended every range session.

1. I do not need dogs to chase deer to me.
2. I practice to prevent 80 yard running shots.
3. I use a mossberg 500 rifle barrel
4. I shoot lightfields, hornady SSTs and 3" winchester OO buck.
hey gman, i think i found one of those lost deer of yours

last season I had a deer limp into the field i was hunting i ranged it at 125 yards. I took the shot and downed the deer.

upon recovery i saw 12 holes that looked like buckshot wounds in the hind quarter of the deer.

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

as alot of people comments are unnecessary

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

i never expected this question to get so much attention i just think its funny

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

yall are trying to take my words and twist em up

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from RobinHood wrote 4 years 31 weeks ago

Stick to the sure thing, which is the ethical and safe shot, and you will rarely be dissappointed.

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 31 weeks ago

liberty first what happened to you using your friends 835 and posting your finds did the gun suprise you and you did not want to post it or did you not shoot the gun at all it has been 3 weeks im waiting for you to post your finds

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

i have never said that everytime i shoot i recover the animal and yes i have taken more than one shot to harvest an animal and i also never claimed that the 6 deer a year are all 80 yard running head shots and also one siad if dogs are running stay out of that area lmao the county is covered in dogs opening day i wish you all could see how our deer season is for yourself we dont get to sit in a stand all day and make 200 plus yards shots so we have make the shot happen we have to hustle on the ground to get infront of them im not claiming to be the best shot but i do my far share of harvesting yall must be shooting smooth bore shotguns

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

you couldnt have found one of my deers becuase the holes would be in the neck or head and the meat on my table

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

so shane everytime you pull the trigger you bring home the animal is seriously doubt it.have you ever lost an animal you have shot.alot of you are just buckshot bashers for all the bashers i would piss down your throat if your lungs were on fire

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

one mans limitations may be another mans begining you have acknowleded your own limitations not my own.all of you are just full of yourself.every guy wants to think he is better then the next

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

when did i say wounding an animal is acceptable read my damn words carfully and think before you open your mouth

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

i have never said that everytime i shoot i recover the animal and yes i have taken more than one shot to harvest an animal and i also never claimed that the 6 deer a year are all 80 yard running head shots and also one siad if dogs are running stay out of that area lmao the county is covered in dogs opening day i wish you all could see how our deer season is for yourself we dont get to sit in a stand all day and make 200 plus yards shots so we have make the shot happen we have to hustle on the ground to get infront of them im not claiming to be the best shot but i do my far share of harvesting yall must be shooting smooth bore shotguns

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

so you telling me you recover the animal everytime you shoot

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

buckshot is legal here to harvest deer with in fact on some public proprty that is all you can use we are not allowed to use a rifles for hunting.where i hunt i could use slugs but like i have said before they run dogs here so slugs it out of the question

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

opinions are like a**holes everybodies got one im a shoot deer the way i shoot deer you can shoot them how ever you like im not saying your way is wrong i just do things the way i do them i have hunted since i was 5 years old and this is what works for me

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

has anybody else taken deer with buckshot pass 60 yards we do it down here like its nothing and i can asure all of you i am not the only one taking these kind of shots

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from gman3186 wrote 4 years 35 weeks ago

you are right i do only take head shots it doesnt matter if there running i still shoot for the head what the worst that can happen shooting for a deers head on the run i miss and hit behind the shoulder.bottom line is i kill deer every year and we get 6 tags with are liscense and i use those tags and go get more bonus stamps so they distance i shoot and the way i shoot works for me if it isnt broke dont fix it

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