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Q:
Clay Cooper, Clearly you're a more experienced and capable shooter than most and a .22-250 is adequate for large deer for you. But will you please agree with me these .22 centerfires are not a great choice for most shooters? Everyone's opinion welcome.

Question by steve182. Uploaded on March 23, 2009

Answers (38)

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from CPT BRAD wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

More experienced and capable?? Yeah I'll give him that. :P 22-250 would not be enough gun for most people, even though they would shoot it more accuratly than their super magnum they've got now you have to be nearly surgical with shot placement, and due to low bullet weight the muzzle energy won't stay with it for longer shots.

To sum it up unless you love tracking wounded deer stay in the 24-25s or above.

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from Beekeeper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

The 22-250 is not a deer rifle. Shooting deer with .22 centerfires is a stunt and as such requires precise bullet placement. If you don't like recoil follow CPTBRAD's advice and get something in 24 or 25 caliber.

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from steve182 wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

Guys, thanks. I was making specific reference to one of Clays answers where he refers to the .22-250 as great for mulies and whitetails. I have one. I'm confident i can kill deer with it, but i have better suited guns for the purpose, and in hunting situations especially, i don't care about recoil.

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from teufelhunden wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

I will disagree. Partially anyway, It depends on your conditions. I have killed many deer with the 22-250 at various ranges up to 400 yards. Every time my bullet passed through and dropped the deer within 10-20 foot of where they were standing.

The person firing the rifle is exponentially more important than the round. My first deer was about 100 yards, double lung, drop in your tracks with a 22-250. What that does not show is that my father would not let me carry a rifle until I could put 10 rounds in a three inch circle at 200 yards. He made sure that I was accurate and confident with the rifle. It was not a stunt and neither were any of the others I have killed since that day.

Just FYI, every deer that I have ever lost have been with a .30 or larger, except one that I made a poor decision on with a .270.

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from thuroy wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

A 22-250 with the right bullet can be effective if used correctly. However, most people are looking for 1000 pounds of energy which a 22-250 doesn't have much more than that at 100 yards. But accuracy is key which you can shoot a low recoil gun without developing the yipps.

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from ken.mcloud wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

We were having a discussion about this on the recent "bucking slug recoil" blog post.

I have serious doubts that the muzzle energy has any direct correlation to how far you have to track a deer.

I have had to track deer hundreds of yards after two kill zone shots with 12 ga. slugs at 50 yds, on the other hand we've see "bang-flop" kills with a .22-250.

Assuming your round has enough energy to penetrate, (this rules out .22 rimfires and bb-guns) direct hits to the heart and spine are what drop animals in their tracks, not kinetic energy. Keep in mind that your should absorbs the exact same amount of energy as the deer.

A larger caliber bullet, a tumbling bullet, or a mushrooming bullet will create a larger wound tract, thus increasing your chances of hitting the heart of spine. However, the difference in the cross-sectional area of a .30-06 vs a .22-250 is negligible.

So, I think that the superior killing power of larger rounds is largely in our heads.(likely testosterone induced) A flat-shooting round that you can accurately place will produce as many if not more "bang-flop" kills as a heavy caliber round.

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from idduckhntr wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

Clay I agree,loaded with a heavy bullet such as 60grain Nosler it is capable but shot placemant must be precise and you have no room for errer and I dont think alot of people would take the time to practice those shots.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

WOW, you guys are doing the best job of discussion NO JOKE!

I do have an answer for you; however I’m going to give the person all credit for doing so!

It’s time today feelings are set aside and start basing on facts!!

I started a firestorm of learning here and I’m going to let it play out a little!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

feelings are set aside and start basing on facts?

What a clue!!!

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from steve182 wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

Keep in mind guys i said "most shooters." I don't think most shooters are as proficient as you military men, therefore what works for you should not nessecarily be recommended to average shooters.

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from Beekeeper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

There is a great article on shooting deer with .22 caliber centerfire rifles in Nosler Reloading Manual #4 (I think, perhaps 3). It is by John Nosler and he relates how the state of Oregon asked him to hunt with high velocity .22 centerfires during deer season and provide feed back on a proposed rule change. He chose the .225 Winchester, a cartridge very similar in all respects to the .22/250. He did not always get the much vaunted bang/flop and found that tracking a deer shot with a .22 diameter bullet was miserable work. His vote, shoot them with something bigger.

I have a farmer friend who deer hunts with a .22/250. He swears by it and friends I don't want him lining me up in the cross wires. He also owns several tracking dogs and will admit to using them frequently when things don't quite line up right.

That said, I did some work collecting deer for an EHD study when I was an undergrad (years ago...). The shooting was done with a .22/250 at night. With perfect shot placement the deer did fall at bullet strike. I also did some sampling with a .22 long rifle in more urban areas and at short range (less than 40 yards) a CCI mini mag in the ear hole will kill them on impact also. But it is still a stunt for those who can shoot well and are calm and cool on the trigger. The average Joe Deerhunter is not that calm and not that cool. That is why I hear entire magazines from Remington 742 Woodsblasters emptied on opening day.

I also work frequently with animal control officers. their choice for shooting hundreds of problem deer every year are silenced Remington 700 Senderos in .270. The load, a 100 grain bullet at about 2,650. They don't like the .22/250 for said work because of the ocassional on that gets away...

It is not that this tool can't do the job, it is more like is this the best tool for the job...?

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from MLH wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

I am curious what the insides of the deer looked like after getting hit at fairly close range with a .22-250. I take it you're not using ballistic tips.

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from teufelhunden wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

I see where you are going with this steve, but no bullet will make up for a poor shot. You can cripple just as many deer with an ultra mag as you can with a 22-250. We can talk energy, sectional density, etc, etc. but the fact remains the 22-250 is a perfectly capable and efficient deer rifle.

Any reasonable and ethical shot by an average hunter that would kill a deer with a .300 win mag would kill a deer just as dead with a 22-250. The questions arise when we start talking about shooting through brush, poor angle of the animal, and shooting beyond average capability.

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from texasfirst wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

Teufelhunden is correct! NO BULLET WILL MAKE UP FOR A POOR SHOT. In other words, bullet placement counts most! That said, I do not recommend .22 anything for whitetail, and that is coming from the guy who killed two whitetail and one muj FO with the .223. Semper Fi.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

O’Brother, you guys are making it hard for me to pick a winner here and some of you are so close!

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from Beekeeper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

MLH,

The deer were shot were with conventional Remington loads with their 55 grain soft point. We didn't have much else back then. Shots were on animals feeding in the open at 200 yards of less. Some as close as 40 to 50 yards. Shots were to the heart. Seldom did the bullet exit. There was significant damage in the boiler room, but I've seen the same or worse from larger bullets.

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from steve182 wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

Is that 55gr softpoint at 200 yds, or better yet 250, going to punch through or break the thickest part of the shoulder continuing on to take BOTH lungs? I'm aiming just behind it personally, but we should all agree a shoulder shot isn't uncommon or unethical if you have the right weapon and bullet.

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from Beekeeper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

My experience was only with soft tissue shots, full broadside only. Did not try to break any bones. I wouldn't recommend a shoulder shot with a 55 grain soft point.

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from teufelhunden wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

I think we need to go back and define "average". I consider myself an "average" hunter. When I killed the deer as a child I felt I was an expert. This begs another question does the "average" hunter in question know that he is average? Will he pick and choose his shots wisely or is he just blasting? Will he have the patience to wait for the braodside shot or will he just fire and pray? Will the knowledge that a larger caliber gives him more power lead him to aim center mass? will the knowledge that he is shooting the 22-250 cause him to pick a better opportunity? Who is average?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

For over a year now on F&S, I do believe this is the best debate of intellectual minds yet, not like the Cross Bow debate!

I am impressed!!!

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from shane wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

There are times where we ask "can we?", and there are time where we ask "should we?".

Deer can be killed with a varmint round. My grandfather killed his first deer with a .22. But why use a varmint caliber for deer when there are so many deer calibers?

Deer calibers for varmints = good time. Varmint calibers for deer = risky.

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from CPT BRAD wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

I see you're riding the fence on this one Clay. I totally disagree with the 22-250 300 win mag comparison. Past 200 yards your running out of gas with the 22-250 at 300 you're between 600-700 FP of energy. Most people reccomend around 1000 for killing which my 300 will hold out to 800 yards! I DON'T recomend shooting 1/2 a mile, I wouldn't, but if a guy was up to it there is more than enough power to kill white tails at that range.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

CPT BRAD

Food for thought, mule deer whas hit 3 rounds of 7mm Rem Mag 175 grainers at 100 yards. Deer ran out to 600-700 yards and with one shot with a 22-250 round, BOOM....PLOP!!

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from CPT BRAD wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

:) Oh I'm not saying you can't kill deer with a 22-250 or a 22 Mag for that matter, but its kind of like building a house with a handsaw sure you can but do you really want to?

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from steve182 wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

i read a book, and saw the subsequent movie "Into the Wild" about an idealistic young man who(Christopher McCandless) burned his money, his id's, and fled his well-to-do life in favor of an Alaskan adventure. Was very intriuging. He walk into the Alaskan bush with a .22 rifle. Even managed to kill a MOOSE with it. About 60 days later (+ or -), he was dead. He starved to death. He had no way to store or preserve his kill, and later wrote in his journal that it was the biggest mistake he ever made shooting that moose(I disagree). He eventually ate poisonous mushrooms or plants and starved. MY POINT, if i have one,... He killed a moose with a .22, though i doubt he recommends it. Must've made a good shot though.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

I have seen what a .22 centerfire will accomplish on up to deer weight animals of several species and the results can be spectacular depending on bullet, number of bullets, and the shooter. Since it is a mute point where I usually hunt for the last 28 years due to Game & Fish regs I will stay out of this conversation.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

ishawooa

Don't back out now!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

Stay tuned Sportsfans, I'll answer by noon tomarrow!

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from steve182 wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

Always interesting and educational debating with you guys.

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from buckhunter wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

I would hunt deer with a 22-250 only if it was the only rifle I owned. Why go into the woods under gunned if you don't have to? I shot a deer with a 22-250 once and it only went 40 yds but what if your shot wasn't very good. I think the 22-250 round would shatter if it hit bone and be worthless.

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from rrmont wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

I have taken a couple of deer with my .22-250 and don't have any complants at all. To me it's all about shot placement, a bad shot is a bad shot it doesn't matter. If you have confidence in your ability with a certian gun then I don't see why you shouldn't use it. My worst shots came with using a .30 cal., it wasn't the guns fault it was mine, I didn't do my job.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

Every one of you made excellent observations based on personal experience based on facts! I got to tell you guys it’s a tie all the way around!
ken.mcloud you brought up a very good case and point, “I have serious doubts that the muzzle energy has any direct correlation to how far you have to track a deer”.

That is about as true as it gets!

steve182 you asked for my opinion what for and why the 22-250? So here it iz!

There are 3 basic categories I will relate to and from there you can break them down into subcategories of construction and performance or better yet what it will do from exiting form the shooting device until the projectile comes to full rest!

Category #1: I’m going to use the arrow for this example. As you know the Brodhead creates a wound Chanel cutting arteries and vital organs like the heart and lungs. Put simply, punches a hole!

Category #2: I’m going to place the 22-250 in this category. Upon impact this hypervelocity bullet uses hydro shock to do the damage or displacement of tissue and fluids like blood. MLH you asked I am curious what the insides of the deer looked like after getting hit at fairly close range with a .22-250. I take it you're not using ballistic tips. The best shot on deer is not a heart shot but a midlung shot that turns the lungs into a soupy mush. Clinically speaking, because the lungs have been demolished the heart has no blood to pump. You will find this leaves a very good blood trail and the deer should be within 100 yards!

Category #3: This is the combination of the two categories!
Bee Keeper, as for John Nosler and the state of Oregon deer hunt with a .225 Winchester, I question with all due respect his ability of “MOP”

ken.mcloud is right by saying
So, I think that the superior killing power of larger rounds is largely in our heads.(likely testosterone induced) A flat-shooting round that you can accurately place will produce as many if not more "bang-flop" kills as a heavy caliber round.

teufelhunden brings up a excellent case and point

Just FYI, every deer that I have ever lost have been with a .30 or larger, except one that I made a poor decision on with a .270.

I got to be truthful with you Guys, each and every one of you are capable of doing what I have done. Just getting the right coaching and training.

For the first time out on the 1000 yard line, TSgt Paul Turner never thought he would win 3rd place and Mrs. Sandra Warmon who would ever think letting her shoot small bore alongside with us the Holloman AFB High Power Team consisting of NRA Coach and Instructors in juneish of 85 would be going to the Olympic Tryouts at the NRA Whittington Center located in Raton New Mexico June 86.

Who would think the poorest teams at Ft Waynewright Alaska take first place in all categories in there ne3xt Commanders Trophy Match? There problem was, the lack of confidence in their equipment and most of all? Themselves! You should have seen there eyes on the 600 meter line when I place 5 rounds thru the black with their own M16A2 rifle! This is where all of us fail.
Bottom line: You’re more capable than you will ever think!!!!

I say, “A true winner isn’t the one that places first; it’s the person that has learned by their mistakes to make them better for the next time”!

A rifle that shoots “MOA” is nice, but it’s the shooters ability to shoot “MOP” that makes the shot count!

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from steve182 wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

thank's Clay. Enlightening as always. And i agree with you and the others. Everyone made fine points, citing personal experience and good theory alike. I engage in such commentary so i will walk away more knowledable and better able to teach my kids. I will still opt for a .24-.26 most likely, but i have a couple years to figure it out. Now, taking my boy out to buy a new Turkey Call.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 5 years 2 weeks ago

Coop, teulf, get serious, we're not talking spine shots. A .22 caliber bullet is not sufficient on deer. No way no how. I'll fight to the end on this.

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from jordjohn44 wrote 4 years 26 weeks ago

Don't use a .22-.250. Its just disrespectful to the deer to most likely leave it wounded and suffering.

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from TNhunter wrote 4 years 20 weeks ago

i agree that shot placement and good decisions are the best recipe. But my only concern are not the bad shots, but the OK shots that no one can help. Very few people can say that they have made a perfect shot everytime, especially out around 200 yards or so. I believe the extra energy and bigger hole in a liver shot can make all the difference. To me its the same idea as using expandable broadheads. a Field point would work but if you have a 2" circle to maybe nick an artery, or just do as much damage as possible on the good shots. Better safe than sorry.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 20 weeks ago

O' I like to get Jim's blood boiling ,LOL!

But you know I'm right, you just don't want to admit it YA”OLD FART!! LOL!!!

This reminds me of listening to the Liberal Left taking on Russ Limbaugh and you know "we are right", HEE! HEE! HEE

YA”BUDDY!!!!

jordjohn44, gotta get ya out some time and show'ya some old tricks dar Son!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 20 weeks ago

Jim in Mo

Spine shots, get real Jim I was under the impression your knowledge was better than this!

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Post an Answer

from teufelhunden wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

I see where you are going with this steve, but no bullet will make up for a poor shot. You can cripple just as many deer with an ultra mag as you can with a 22-250. We can talk energy, sectional density, etc, etc. but the fact remains the 22-250 is a perfectly capable and efficient deer rifle.

Any reasonable and ethical shot by an average hunter that would kill a deer with a .300 win mag would kill a deer just as dead with a 22-250. The questions arise when we start talking about shooting through brush, poor angle of the animal, and shooting beyond average capability.

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from Beekeeper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

There is a great article on shooting deer with .22 caliber centerfire rifles in Nosler Reloading Manual #4 (I think, perhaps 3). It is by John Nosler and he relates how the state of Oregon asked him to hunt with high velocity .22 centerfires during deer season and provide feed back on a proposed rule change. He chose the .225 Winchester, a cartridge very similar in all respects to the .22/250. He did not always get the much vaunted bang/flop and found that tracking a deer shot with a .22 diameter bullet was miserable work. His vote, shoot them with something bigger.

I have a farmer friend who deer hunts with a .22/250. He swears by it and friends I don't want him lining me up in the cross wires. He also owns several tracking dogs and will admit to using them frequently when things don't quite line up right.

That said, I did some work collecting deer for an EHD study when I was an undergrad (years ago...). The shooting was done with a .22/250 at night. With perfect shot placement the deer did fall at bullet strike. I also did some sampling with a .22 long rifle in more urban areas and at short range (less than 40 yards) a CCI mini mag in the ear hole will kill them on impact also. But it is still a stunt for those who can shoot well and are calm and cool on the trigger. The average Joe Deerhunter is not that calm and not that cool. That is why I hear entire magazines from Remington 742 Woodsblasters emptied on opening day.

I also work frequently with animal control officers. their choice for shooting hundreds of problem deer every year are silenced Remington 700 Senderos in .270. The load, a 100 grain bullet at about 2,650. They don't like the .22/250 for said work because of the ocassional on that gets away...

It is not that this tool can't do the job, it is more like is this the best tool for the job...?

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from CPT BRAD wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

:) Oh I'm not saying you can't kill deer with a 22-250 or a 22 Mag for that matter, but its kind of like building a house with a handsaw sure you can but do you really want to?

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from jordjohn44 wrote 4 years 26 weeks ago

Don't use a .22-.250. Its just disrespectful to the deer to most likely leave it wounded and suffering.

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from CPT BRAD wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

More experienced and capable?? Yeah I'll give him that. :P 22-250 would not be enough gun for most people, even though they would shoot it more accuratly than their super magnum they've got now you have to be nearly surgical with shot placement, and due to low bullet weight the muzzle energy won't stay with it for longer shots.

To sum it up unless you love tracking wounded deer stay in the 24-25s or above.

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from teufelhunden wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

I will disagree. Partially anyway, It depends on your conditions. I have killed many deer with the 22-250 at various ranges up to 400 yards. Every time my bullet passed through and dropped the deer within 10-20 foot of where they were standing.

The person firing the rifle is exponentially more important than the round. My first deer was about 100 yards, double lung, drop in your tracks with a 22-250. What that does not show is that my father would not let me carry a rifle until I could put 10 rounds in a three inch circle at 200 yards. He made sure that I was accurate and confident with the rifle. It was not a stunt and neither were any of the others I have killed since that day.

Just FYI, every deer that I have ever lost have been with a .30 or larger, except one that I made a poor decision on with a .270.

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from thuroy wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

A 22-250 with the right bullet can be effective if used correctly. However, most people are looking for 1000 pounds of energy which a 22-250 doesn't have much more than that at 100 yards. But accuracy is key which you can shoot a low recoil gun without developing the yipps.

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from ken.mcloud wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

We were having a discussion about this on the recent "bucking slug recoil" blog post.

I have serious doubts that the muzzle energy has any direct correlation to how far you have to track a deer.

I have had to track deer hundreds of yards after two kill zone shots with 12 ga. slugs at 50 yds, on the other hand we've see "bang-flop" kills with a .22-250.

Assuming your round has enough energy to penetrate, (this rules out .22 rimfires and bb-guns) direct hits to the heart and spine are what drop animals in their tracks, not kinetic energy. Keep in mind that your should absorbs the exact same amount of energy as the deer.

A larger caliber bullet, a tumbling bullet, or a mushrooming bullet will create a larger wound tract, thus increasing your chances of hitting the heart of spine. However, the difference in the cross-sectional area of a .30-06 vs a .22-250 is negligible.

So, I think that the superior killing power of larger rounds is largely in our heads.(likely testosterone induced) A flat-shooting round that you can accurately place will produce as many if not more "bang-flop" kills as a heavy caliber round.

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from texasfirst wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

Teufelhunden is correct! NO BULLET WILL MAKE UP FOR A POOR SHOT. In other words, bullet placement counts most! That said, I do not recommend .22 anything for whitetail, and that is coming from the guy who killed two whitetail and one muj FO with the .223. Semper Fi.

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from Beekeeper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

MLH,

The deer were shot were with conventional Remington loads with their 55 grain soft point. We didn't have much else back then. Shots were on animals feeding in the open at 200 yards of less. Some as close as 40 to 50 yards. Shots were to the heart. Seldom did the bullet exit. There was significant damage in the boiler room, but I've seen the same or worse from larger bullets.

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from steve182 wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

Is that 55gr softpoint at 200 yds, or better yet 250, going to punch through or break the thickest part of the shoulder continuing on to take BOTH lungs? I'm aiming just behind it personally, but we should all agree a shoulder shot isn't uncommon or unethical if you have the right weapon and bullet.

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from Beekeeper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

My experience was only with soft tissue shots, full broadside only. Did not try to break any bones. I wouldn't recommend a shoulder shot with a 55 grain soft point.

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from teufelhunden wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

I think we need to go back and define "average". I consider myself an "average" hunter. When I killed the deer as a child I felt I was an expert. This begs another question does the "average" hunter in question know that he is average? Will he pick and choose his shots wisely or is he just blasting? Will he have the patience to wait for the braodside shot or will he just fire and pray? Will the knowledge that a larger caliber gives him more power lead him to aim center mass? will the knowledge that he is shooting the 22-250 cause him to pick a better opportunity? Who is average?

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from CPT BRAD wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

I see you're riding the fence on this one Clay. I totally disagree with the 22-250 300 win mag comparison. Past 200 yards your running out of gas with the 22-250 at 300 you're between 600-700 FP of energy. Most people reccomend around 1000 for killing which my 300 will hold out to 800 yards! I DON'T recomend shooting 1/2 a mile, I wouldn't, but if a guy was up to it there is more than enough power to kill white tails at that range.

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from buckhunter wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

I would hunt deer with a 22-250 only if it was the only rifle I owned. Why go into the woods under gunned if you don't have to? I shot a deer with a 22-250 once and it only went 40 yds but what if your shot wasn't very good. I think the 22-250 round would shatter if it hit bone and be worthless.

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from rrmont wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

I have taken a couple of deer with my .22-250 and don't have any complants at all. To me it's all about shot placement, a bad shot is a bad shot it doesn't matter. If you have confidence in your ability with a certian gun then I don't see why you shouldn't use it. My worst shots came with using a .30 cal., it wasn't the guns fault it was mine, I didn't do my job.

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from steve182 wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

thank's Clay. Enlightening as always. And i agree with you and the others. Everyone made fine points, citing personal experience and good theory alike. I engage in such commentary so i will walk away more knowledable and better able to teach my kids. I will still opt for a .24-.26 most likely, but i have a couple years to figure it out. Now, taking my boy out to buy a new Turkey Call.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 5 years 2 weeks ago

Coop, teulf, get serious, we're not talking spine shots. A .22 caliber bullet is not sufficient on deer. No way no how. I'll fight to the end on this.

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from Beekeeper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

The 22-250 is not a deer rifle. Shooting deer with .22 centerfires is a stunt and as such requires precise bullet placement. If you don't like recoil follow CPTBRAD's advice and get something in 24 or 25 caliber.

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from steve182 wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

Guys, thanks. I was making specific reference to one of Clays answers where he refers to the .22-250 as great for mulies and whitetails. I have one. I'm confident i can kill deer with it, but i have better suited guns for the purpose, and in hunting situations especially, i don't care about recoil.

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from idduckhntr wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

Clay I agree,loaded with a heavy bullet such as 60grain Nosler it is capable but shot placemant must be precise and you have no room for errer and I dont think alot of people would take the time to practice those shots.

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from steve182 wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

Keep in mind guys i said "most shooters." I don't think most shooters are as proficient as you military men, therefore what works for you should not nessecarily be recommended to average shooters.

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from MLH wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

I am curious what the insides of the deer looked like after getting hit at fairly close range with a .22-250. I take it you're not using ballistic tips.

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from shane wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

There are times where we ask "can we?", and there are time where we ask "should we?".

Deer can be killed with a varmint round. My grandfather killed his first deer with a .22. But why use a varmint caliber for deer when there are so many deer calibers?

Deer calibers for varmints = good time. Varmint calibers for deer = risky.

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from steve182 wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

i read a book, and saw the subsequent movie "Into the Wild" about an idealistic young man who(Christopher McCandless) burned his money, his id's, and fled his well-to-do life in favor of an Alaskan adventure. Was very intriuging. He walk into the Alaskan bush with a .22 rifle. Even managed to kill a MOOSE with it. About 60 days later (+ or -), he was dead. He starved to death. He had no way to store or preserve his kill, and later wrote in his journal that it was the biggest mistake he ever made shooting that moose(I disagree). He eventually ate poisonous mushrooms or plants and starved. MY POINT, if i have one,... He killed a moose with a .22, though i doubt he recommends it. Must've made a good shot though.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

I have seen what a .22 centerfire will accomplish on up to deer weight animals of several species and the results can be spectacular depending on bullet, number of bullets, and the shooter. Since it is a mute point where I usually hunt for the last 28 years due to Game & Fish regs I will stay out of this conversation.

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from steve182 wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

Always interesting and educational debating with you guys.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

Every one of you made excellent observations based on personal experience based on facts! I got to tell you guys it’s a tie all the way around!
ken.mcloud you brought up a very good case and point, “I have serious doubts that the muzzle energy has any direct correlation to how far you have to track a deer”.

That is about as true as it gets!

steve182 you asked for my opinion what for and why the 22-250? So here it iz!

There are 3 basic categories I will relate to and from there you can break them down into subcategories of construction and performance or better yet what it will do from exiting form the shooting device until the projectile comes to full rest!

Category #1: I’m going to use the arrow for this example. As you know the Brodhead creates a wound Chanel cutting arteries and vital organs like the heart and lungs. Put simply, punches a hole!

Category #2: I’m going to place the 22-250 in this category. Upon impact this hypervelocity bullet uses hydro shock to do the damage or displacement of tissue and fluids like blood. MLH you asked I am curious what the insides of the deer looked like after getting hit at fairly close range with a .22-250. I take it you're not using ballistic tips. The best shot on deer is not a heart shot but a midlung shot that turns the lungs into a soupy mush. Clinically speaking, because the lungs have been demolished the heart has no blood to pump. You will find this leaves a very good blood trail and the deer should be within 100 yards!

Category #3: This is the combination of the two categories!
Bee Keeper, as for John Nosler and the state of Oregon deer hunt with a .225 Winchester, I question with all due respect his ability of “MOP”

ken.mcloud is right by saying
So, I think that the superior killing power of larger rounds is largely in our heads.(likely testosterone induced) A flat-shooting round that you can accurately place will produce as many if not more "bang-flop" kills as a heavy caliber round.

teufelhunden brings up a excellent case and point

Just FYI, every deer that I have ever lost have been with a .30 or larger, except one that I made a poor decision on with a .270.

I got to be truthful with you Guys, each and every one of you are capable of doing what I have done. Just getting the right coaching and training.

For the first time out on the 1000 yard line, TSgt Paul Turner never thought he would win 3rd place and Mrs. Sandra Warmon who would ever think letting her shoot small bore alongside with us the Holloman AFB High Power Team consisting of NRA Coach and Instructors in juneish of 85 would be going to the Olympic Tryouts at the NRA Whittington Center located in Raton New Mexico June 86.

Who would think the poorest teams at Ft Waynewright Alaska take first place in all categories in there ne3xt Commanders Trophy Match? There problem was, the lack of confidence in their equipment and most of all? Themselves! You should have seen there eyes on the 600 meter line when I place 5 rounds thru the black with their own M16A2 rifle! This is where all of us fail.
Bottom line: You’re more capable than you will ever think!!!!

I say, “A true winner isn’t the one that places first; it’s the person that has learned by their mistakes to make them better for the next time”!

A rifle that shoots “MOA” is nice, but it’s the shooters ability to shoot “MOP” that makes the shot count!

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from TNhunter wrote 4 years 20 weeks ago

i agree that shot placement and good decisions are the best recipe. But my only concern are not the bad shots, but the OK shots that no one can help. Very few people can say that they have made a perfect shot everytime, especially out around 200 yards or so. I believe the extra energy and bigger hole in a liver shot can make all the difference. To me its the same idea as using expandable broadheads. a Field point would work but if you have a 2" circle to maybe nick an artery, or just do as much damage as possible on the good shots. Better safe than sorry.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 20 weeks ago

O' I like to get Jim's blood boiling ,LOL!

But you know I'm right, you just don't want to admit it YA”OLD FART!! LOL!!!

This reminds me of listening to the Liberal Left taking on Russ Limbaugh and you know "we are right", HEE! HEE! HEE

YA”BUDDY!!!!

jordjohn44, gotta get ya out some time and show'ya some old tricks dar Son!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 20 weeks ago

Jim in Mo

Spine shots, get real Jim I was under the impression your knowledge was better than this!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

WOW, you guys are doing the best job of discussion NO JOKE!

I do have an answer for you; however I’m going to give the person all credit for doing so!

It’s time today feelings are set aside and start basing on facts!!

I started a firestorm of learning here and I’m going to let it play out a little!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

feelings are set aside and start basing on facts?

What a clue!!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

O’Brother, you guys are making it hard for me to pick a winner here and some of you are so close!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

For over a year now on F&S, I do believe this is the best debate of intellectual minds yet, not like the Cross Bow debate!

I am impressed!!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

CPT BRAD

Food for thought, mule deer whas hit 3 rounds of 7mm Rem Mag 175 grainers at 100 yards. Deer ran out to 600-700 yards and with one shot with a 22-250 round, BOOM....PLOP!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

ishawooa

Don't back out now!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 5 years 4 weeks ago

Stay tuned Sportsfans, I'll answer by noon tomarrow!

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