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Q:
What is happening to America? Today i heard that our beloved Obama is now letting people from the bush admin. be hailed accountable in court for torturing. Does anyone remember how they felt on 9-11? Does anyone remember the Americans who where decapitated on TV? These men who are being "held accountable for torture" were trying to save many Americans by doing what they had to, to get the info they needed. Now they are gonna be suid by the US! This is a pathetic way to treat our own country men. My person thoughts are if you had to kill one or all of these dirt bags just to save one of our guys.... then do it. I dont understand this guy, He is trying to make friends with all the other countries and at the same time he is making us look like a big puss country! If you are gonna be the Pres. Have some balls! I wish every American could see the bull in this! But I am afraid that our countrymen will be on the loosing end if they go to court.... They will be judged and sentenced by the very country that they were trying to protect! Thanks Mr. Pres.

Question by victorytw228. Uploaded on April 21, 2009

Answers (22)

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from DrMike wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

I do agree with you in every aspect. It is a fine line that some of our men/women are walking. If I had to torture a known terrorist to save innocent American lives would I do it..... Hell yes with out a doubt! However, here is my suggestion. Stop watching CNN or MSNBC and get outdoors or your mind in a good book. News is important but I can't stand all the crap they broadcast anymore. I have found that I am not as angry at the world since I quit watching it. Just a thought.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from jfose140 wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

This looks like a good topic for backlash and blowbacks. I have to agree with Dr.Mike, don't get too wrapped up in all the crap you hear on TV, its spring time and the fish are biting.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

Excuse me Mr. Taliban, do you want fries with that interrogation Sir!

How about a movie,

O’ I don’t have gone with the wind,

But I do have “Gone with the Trade Towers” in 3D Blue Ray!

O’ you want your feet rubbed? OK Mr. Taliban,!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from rocky d bashaw wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

obama if that is his name is a muslim

-1 Good Comment? | | Report
from chuckles wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

Hunting, fishing, survival, guns, gear.
What does your question have to do with any of these subjects? I think this is a hunting and fishing website and lots of people took the time to point that out to me recently. Let's try to stay on topic. There are lots of places for people to vent their frustration with politics, but this site is dedicated to more fun and less stress.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from steve182 wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

If we look critically at the interrogation methods, we must also look at what these interrogations produced. You don't hear about all the intelligence and info gathered. If you did, you'd realize these methods were warranted. Simiulated drowning is not drowning, which would be unnacceptable. Most of these interrogation methods are mind games. Ok, some get a little rough, but they produced invaluable intelligence that saved americans lives. End of discussion for me. Funny how the left always wants to criminalize the good guys and give the bad guys a pass.

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from silsbyj wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

I could be slightly biased having been shot at by said Taliban but I believe that we should use any means possible to get info out of the bad guys. If that means keeping them on the brink of insanity just for a few crucial words.....then by god lets do it. Washington crazies dont give a rats ass that maybe...just maybe....some of the intelligence that was gathered from those interrogations saved Americans. If it saved just one, it was well worth it.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

I agree with chuckles, What does this have to do with F&S?

but, aren't we supposed to be the good guys?

If we are running around water-boarding people, how do we justify hanging all of Japanese soldiers after WWII for water-boarding our soldiers?

Nobody is suggesting you give the Taliban a foot rub. They are simply suggesting that we hold ourselves to the same standards that we have held our enemies to in the past.

like we are always saying "freedom isn't free" sometimes you gotta stand up for values.

This is the conservative stance, LESS government power, NOT MORE.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

Welcome to a kinder, gentler America. An America where the head of Homeland Security, Janet Napolitano, calls God fearing middle class Americans right wing extremists because we are tired of being taxed, we belive in immigration controls and we belived in the Second amendment.

The same woman who no refers to a terrorist attack as a "man caused disaster" because she, "wants to move away from the politics of fear."

Mr. Obama said in his book that he would always side with Islam.

Silbyj, God bless you for your service and your sacrifice for this country!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

This really isn't the right site to do this on, but here I go!

Beekeeper and rocky d bashaw->

The war on terror (or whatever PC name they want to call it now) IS NOT a war of Christianity vs Islam.

That is exactly how Osama Bin Laden wants to portray it, but that is not what it is. When it comes down to almost everything that matters Christianity and Islam are essentially the same. Forgiveness, helping others, honoring elders, etc...

However, in the past people have perverted certain parts of Christianity to justify everything from slavery to genocide. Al Quida is doing the exact same thing with Islam right now. They are using the Koran to justify atrocities that it fairly clearly prohibits. Painting this as a Muhammad vs. Jesus fight plays exactly into their hand.

This is really a war of the rational, modern world against a group of religious extremists. Playing into the anti-Islam stereotype hurts our side and helps theirs.

and what about all the Muslims in our military who bravely fought alongside silbyj? is their contribution somehow less valuable because they have a (slightly) different religion?

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from victorytw228 wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

What about the muslims in our military? They should be recognized as heros just like the rest. As for the standards that we are held too. A war that in which you fight terrorists should not be held to the same "laws" as other wars. These guys dont care if you male female or a infant, if your american you die. They torture and mutilate your bodies. And your talking about how we should hold ourselves to standards? Screw that!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

Mr. Mcloud,

Thank you for the lecture. However, I never said nor claimed the "War on Terror" was a religious duel or a fight between Christians and the Islamic faith. There is far more involed than just that. I was simply providing commentary on a segment of our government and relating a quote from our President.

Religious dogma being what it is, provides several fundamental reasons for the tension between Islam and Christianity. Chief among them is that Islam believes the Christian faith has violated the first two Comandmants by praying to Christ as a "God" and by making images (graven) of Christ, Saints (prophets) and other figures of the faith. Many Christians do not understand that Jesus is a much beloved prophet in the Quar'an and is held at high station by the Islamic faith. Islam holds Mosaic Law (The Commandments, et al) in very high regard and do not suffer Christians lightly for what they consider to be severe transgressions. Even the more liberal of the Islamic faith find this issue of interpretation hard to resolve.

I concurr that both faiths hold with the same moral code, they are both after all based on Mosaic Law. I have had this discussion with am Islamic friend many times. I will also add this point, while Lutherans and Baptists might not agree exactly on Christian dogma they do not slaughter one another.

Western influence in the middle east through our need of oil and through our spread of western culture (I use the term "culture" loosely) creates an additional amount of friction. The extremists as you call them, want this influence to end and for the "Great Satan" to go home. In essence it is their fight against the rest of the world. I view this exactly as you do, they are an extremist ememy and I fully understand what drives them.

As a threat they must be delt with. To codify thier tactics and the aftermath of thier actions as a "man caused disaster" rather than calling it what it is; terrorism, is a blatant act of denial and false apeasement.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from idahooutdoors wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

Nothing to do with the outdoors, but just goes to show the political climate of our country when so many people are riled up about so many different topics right now. I think the Government and the citizens of this country all need to take a deep breath, take a step back, and think about what we are doing, instead of all this blind action that is tearing our country all to hell.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from nathan.grell wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

I agree with you, after 9/11 i joined the army for 6 yrs. The Geneva convention is what keeps us from torturing or doing anything in-humane. We couldnt fire our weapons at the enemy until we were fired upon first, guess what- when they fire first our men die first!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

victorytw228-

Being that I had family members who responded to ground zero, I remember quite will what 9/11 felt like.

That being said, our great nation has faced enemies far worse than Al Quida in the past. American servicemen have been killed and tortured in almost every war since the revolution. England, Germany, Japan, Vietnam, and many other countries have tortured American servicemen in the past.

Our Fathers, Grandfathers, and Great Grandfathers all had the courage to stick to their convictions.

What makes us think we have the right to deem that our enemies are somehow "more evil" than theirs, so we don't have to stand up for those values that they fought and died for?

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from victorytw228 wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

Good question. I guess the difference I see between this war and what I have heard of from the past wars is this. Every war we have fought in we have lost soldiers and have had soldiers captured. Some of those men and women who got captured came home, but not all. In this war they kill....everyone. They fight under no laws. They fight with no mercy. They kill every single American that they can. In every battle we have fought we have came to a sieze fire, or an agreement to stop fighting. And with time the hate between countries decreases. I dont think they will ever stop hating us. I dont think they will ever stop attacking us. That is how i see it. The values our fathers and grandfathers and great grandfathers fought for are held dear to me, and should be held dear by all Americans. I know many veterans that I thank for serving their country. But im sure if you ask anyone of those great men they will tell you, you do what you do to survive in war. But the main point of question was how can our pres. let men who are fighting for our country be tried in a court for this so called torture? And I call it so called because in my eyes i dont think being deprived of sleep is torture. Hell got to any bootcamp for the military and you are deprived of sleep. Also I am sure you are proud of your family member who responded to 9/11. What they did that day was an amazing thing and will never be forgotten.

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

victorytw228-

"They fight under no laws. They fight with no mercy."
Though, I don't have I time machine so I can't prove it, I'm pretty that both sides of every war ever have thought this about each other. I'll bet if you went back and asked an American GI in a Nazi concentration camp, or on the Batan death march, or even a Japanese school child in Hiroshima they would say the same thing about their enemy.

My Point is NOT that they aren't very evil people. My point is that this is no reason to abandon the principles that our nation was built on.

"you do what you do to survive in war"
Lets be very clear what we are talking about here. We are not talking about a grunt dragging a bad guy into a fox hole and beating the snot out of him to find out where the enemy patrol is. I imagine that this sort of thing has happened in every war. We should actively try to train our soldiers to prevent it, though no government or pentagon policy will ever stop it.

We are talking about a group of lawyers and politicians sitting in a room and cooking up poorly formulated legal excuses for why we can abandon our laws ans principles. This was planned and premeditated from the highest levels of our civilian government.

"how can our pres. let men who are fighting for our country be tried in a court for this so called torture?"
Lets be really clear about who actually might be charged (not sued) in this case. He has said the actual ground-level CIA agents who were following orders WILL NOT be charged. He actually didn't say anyone would be charged either.

He said he would leave it to the attorney general (granted, a scumbag) whether or not to prosecute the high-level lawyers and politicians who cooked up the half-baked legal excuses for why this was ok. These people sat in a fancy room in three piece suits and said "how can we justify abandoning our laws and principles?" These people hardly deserve the benefit of the doubt that we extend to our troops.

As for whether or not waterboarding (or things like it) are torture, why were we executing enemy troops for doing it to our soldiers after WWII? There can't be one standard for us and another for the rest of the world.

I'm no Obama Lover, I just think we should be fighting on one of the many issues where we clearly have the moral high ground, not one of these highly dubious moral grey areas like torture and gay marriage.

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

To whoever left my last post negative feedback-

You are a coward.

Have the courage of your convictions and state your argument instead of just giving mine a negative.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from victorytw228 wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

Well Ken i guess we dont see eye to eye. But to each his own.
p.s it wasnt me who gave you the neg. mark, you answered truthfully and how you felt. I disagree with you but atleast you stand by how you feel.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from chuckles wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

I only came back here to see if the people posting here were also trying to save the Huntress. If you care about these politics take the time to vote your support for the Huntress!
ps Ideals matter!

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from muskiemaster wrote 4 years 50 weeks ago

I fully agree with you hear that these people don't remember that only a couple years ago our world was in shock and don't realize the pain we were all in.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from deerhunter0323 wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

We americans seem to forgive and forget to easily. I'm still mad about pearl harbor and now just about everyone is driving jap made cars while detroit goes down the tubes. I think I need to go on a fishing vacation in my american made truck!

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from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

Mr. Mcloud,

Thank you for the lecture. However, I never said nor claimed the "War on Terror" was a religious duel or a fight between Christians and the Islamic faith. There is far more involed than just that. I was simply providing commentary on a segment of our government and relating a quote from our President.

Religious dogma being what it is, provides several fundamental reasons for the tension between Islam and Christianity. Chief among them is that Islam believes the Christian faith has violated the first two Comandmants by praying to Christ as a "God" and by making images (graven) of Christ, Saints (prophets) and other figures of the faith. Many Christians do not understand that Jesus is a much beloved prophet in the Quar'an and is held at high station by the Islamic faith. Islam holds Mosaic Law (The Commandments, et al) in very high regard and do not suffer Christians lightly for what they consider to be severe transgressions. Even the more liberal of the Islamic faith find this issue of interpretation hard to resolve.

I concurr that both faiths hold with the same moral code, they are both after all based on Mosaic Law. I have had this discussion with am Islamic friend many times. I will also add this point, while Lutherans and Baptists might not agree exactly on Christian dogma they do not slaughter one another.

Western influence in the middle east through our need of oil and through our spread of western culture (I use the term "culture" loosely) creates an additional amount of friction. The extremists as you call them, want this influence to end and for the "Great Satan" to go home. In essence it is their fight against the rest of the world. I view this exactly as you do, they are an extremist ememy and I fully understand what drives them.

As a threat they must be delt with. To codify thier tactics and the aftermath of thier actions as a "man caused disaster" rather than calling it what it is; terrorism, is a blatant act of denial and false apeasement.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from DrMike wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

I do agree with you in every aspect. It is a fine line that some of our men/women are walking. If I had to torture a known terrorist to save innocent American lives would I do it..... Hell yes with out a doubt! However, here is my suggestion. Stop watching CNN or MSNBC and get outdoors or your mind in a good book. News is important but I can't stand all the crap they broadcast anymore. I have found that I am not as angry at the world since I quit watching it. Just a thought.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

Excuse me Mr. Taliban, do you want fries with that interrogation Sir!

How about a movie,

O’ I don’t have gone with the wind,

But I do have “Gone with the Trade Towers” in 3D Blue Ray!

O’ you want your feet rubbed? OK Mr. Taliban,!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from chuckles wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

Hunting, fishing, survival, guns, gear.
What does your question have to do with any of these subjects? I think this is a hunting and fishing website and lots of people took the time to point that out to me recently. Let's try to stay on topic. There are lots of places for people to vent their frustration with politics, but this site is dedicated to more fun and less stress.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from silsbyj wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

I could be slightly biased having been shot at by said Taliban but I believe that we should use any means possible to get info out of the bad guys. If that means keeping them on the brink of insanity just for a few crucial words.....then by god lets do it. Washington crazies dont give a rats ass that maybe...just maybe....some of the intelligence that was gathered from those interrogations saved Americans. If it saved just one, it was well worth it.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from victorytw228 wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

Good question. I guess the difference I see between this war and what I have heard of from the past wars is this. Every war we have fought in we have lost soldiers and have had soldiers captured. Some of those men and women who got captured came home, but not all. In this war they kill....everyone. They fight under no laws. They fight with no mercy. They kill every single American that they can. In every battle we have fought we have came to a sieze fire, or an agreement to stop fighting. And with time the hate between countries decreases. I dont think they will ever stop hating us. I dont think they will ever stop attacking us. That is how i see it. The values our fathers and grandfathers and great grandfathers fought for are held dear to me, and should be held dear by all Americans. I know many veterans that I thank for serving their country. But im sure if you ask anyone of those great men they will tell you, you do what you do to survive in war. But the main point of question was how can our pres. let men who are fighting for our country be tried in a court for this so called torture? And I call it so called because in my eyes i dont think being deprived of sleep is torture. Hell got to any bootcamp for the military and you are deprived of sleep. Also I am sure you are proud of your family member who responded to 9/11. What they did that day was an amazing thing and will never be forgotten.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from jfose140 wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

This looks like a good topic for backlash and blowbacks. I have to agree with Dr.Mike, don't get too wrapped up in all the crap you hear on TV, its spring time and the fish are biting.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from steve182 wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

If we look critically at the interrogation methods, we must also look at what these interrogations produced. You don't hear about all the intelligence and info gathered. If you did, you'd realize these methods were warranted. Simiulated drowning is not drowning, which would be unnacceptable. Most of these interrogation methods are mind games. Ok, some get a little rough, but they produced invaluable intelligence that saved americans lives. End of discussion for me. Funny how the left always wants to criminalize the good guys and give the bad guys a pass.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

I agree with chuckles, What does this have to do with F&S?

but, aren't we supposed to be the good guys?

If we are running around water-boarding people, how do we justify hanging all of Japanese soldiers after WWII for water-boarding our soldiers?

Nobody is suggesting you give the Taliban a foot rub. They are simply suggesting that we hold ourselves to the same standards that we have held our enemies to in the past.

like we are always saying "freedom isn't free" sometimes you gotta stand up for values.

This is the conservative stance, LESS government power, NOT MORE.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

Welcome to a kinder, gentler America. An America where the head of Homeland Security, Janet Napolitano, calls God fearing middle class Americans right wing extremists because we are tired of being taxed, we belive in immigration controls and we belived in the Second amendment.

The same woman who no refers to a terrorist attack as a "man caused disaster" because she, "wants to move away from the politics of fear."

Mr. Obama said in his book that he would always side with Islam.

Silbyj, God bless you for your service and your sacrifice for this country!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

This really isn't the right site to do this on, but here I go!

Beekeeper and rocky d bashaw->

The war on terror (or whatever PC name they want to call it now) IS NOT a war of Christianity vs Islam.

That is exactly how Osama Bin Laden wants to portray it, but that is not what it is. When it comes down to almost everything that matters Christianity and Islam are essentially the same. Forgiveness, helping others, honoring elders, etc...

However, in the past people have perverted certain parts of Christianity to justify everything from slavery to genocide. Al Quida is doing the exact same thing with Islam right now. They are using the Koran to justify atrocities that it fairly clearly prohibits. Painting this as a Muhammad vs. Jesus fight plays exactly into their hand.

This is really a war of the rational, modern world against a group of religious extremists. Playing into the anti-Islam stereotype hurts our side and helps theirs.

and what about all the Muslims in our military who bravely fought alongside silbyj? is their contribution somehow less valuable because they have a (slightly) different religion?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from victorytw228 wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

What about the muslims in our military? They should be recognized as heros just like the rest. As for the standards that we are held too. A war that in which you fight terrorists should not be held to the same "laws" as other wars. These guys dont care if you male female or a infant, if your american you die. They torture and mutilate your bodies. And your talking about how we should hold ourselves to standards? Screw that!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from idahooutdoors wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

Nothing to do with the outdoors, but just goes to show the political climate of our country when so many people are riled up about so many different topics right now. I think the Government and the citizens of this country all need to take a deep breath, take a step back, and think about what we are doing, instead of all this blind action that is tearing our country all to hell.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from nathan.grell wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

I agree with you, after 9/11 i joined the army for 6 yrs. The Geneva convention is what keeps us from torturing or doing anything in-humane. We couldnt fire our weapons at the enemy until we were fired upon first, guess what- when they fire first our men die first!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

To whoever left my last post negative feedback-

You are a coward.

Have the courage of your convictions and state your argument instead of just giving mine a negative.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from victorytw228 wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

Well Ken i guess we dont see eye to eye. But to each his own.
p.s it wasnt me who gave you the neg. mark, you answered truthfully and how you felt. I disagree with you but atleast you stand by how you feel.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from muskiemaster wrote 4 years 50 weeks ago

I fully agree with you hear that these people don't remember that only a couple years ago our world was in shock and don't realize the pain we were all in.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

victorytw228-

Being that I had family members who responded to ground zero, I remember quite will what 9/11 felt like.

That being said, our great nation has faced enemies far worse than Al Quida in the past. American servicemen have been killed and tortured in almost every war since the revolution. England, Germany, Japan, Vietnam, and many other countries have tortured American servicemen in the past.

Our Fathers, Grandfathers, and Great Grandfathers all had the courage to stick to their convictions.

What makes us think we have the right to deem that our enemies are somehow "more evil" than theirs, so we don't have to stand up for those values that they fought and died for?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

victorytw228-

"They fight under no laws. They fight with no mercy."
Though, I don't have I time machine so I can't prove it, I'm pretty that both sides of every war ever have thought this about each other. I'll bet if you went back and asked an American GI in a Nazi concentration camp, or on the Batan death march, or even a Japanese school child in Hiroshima they would say the same thing about their enemy.

My Point is NOT that they aren't very evil people. My point is that this is no reason to abandon the principles that our nation was built on.

"you do what you do to survive in war"
Lets be very clear what we are talking about here. We are not talking about a grunt dragging a bad guy into a fox hole and beating the snot out of him to find out where the enemy patrol is. I imagine that this sort of thing has happened in every war. We should actively try to train our soldiers to prevent it, though no government or pentagon policy will ever stop it.

We are talking about a group of lawyers and politicians sitting in a room and cooking up poorly formulated legal excuses for why we can abandon our laws ans principles. This was planned and premeditated from the highest levels of our civilian government.

"how can our pres. let men who are fighting for our country be tried in a court for this so called torture?"
Lets be really clear about who actually might be charged (not sued) in this case. He has said the actual ground-level CIA agents who were following orders WILL NOT be charged. He actually didn't say anyone would be charged either.

He said he would leave it to the attorney general (granted, a scumbag) whether or not to prosecute the high-level lawyers and politicians who cooked up the half-baked legal excuses for why this was ok. These people sat in a fancy room in three piece suits and said "how can we justify abandoning our laws and principles?" These people hardly deserve the benefit of the doubt that we extend to our troops.

As for whether or not waterboarding (or things like it) are torture, why were we executing enemy troops for doing it to our soldiers after WWII? There can't be one standard for us and another for the rest of the world.

I'm no Obama Lover, I just think we should be fighting on one of the many issues where we clearly have the moral high ground, not one of these highly dubious moral grey areas like torture and gay marriage.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from chuckles wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

I only came back here to see if the people posting here were also trying to save the Huntress. If you care about these politics take the time to vote your support for the Huntress!
ps Ideals matter!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from deerhunter0323 wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

We americans seem to forgive and forget to easily. I'm still mad about pearl harbor and now just about everyone is driving jap made cars while detroit goes down the tubes. I think I need to go on a fishing vacation in my american made truck!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from rocky d bashaw wrote 4 years 51 weeks ago

obama if that is his name is a muslim

-1 Good Comment? | | Report

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