Please Sign In

Please enter a valid username and password
  • Log in with Facebook
» Not a member? Take a moment to register
» Forgot Username or Password

Why Register?
Signing up could earn you gear (click here to learn how)! It also keeps offensive content off our site.

Petzal: Some Rifle Barrels are Faster than Others

Recent Comments

Categories

Recent Posts

Archives

Syndicate

Google Reader or Homepage
Add to My Yahoo!
Add to My AOL

The Gun Nuts
in your Inbox

Enter your email address to get our new post everyday.

April 09, 2009

Petzal: Some Rifle Barrels are Faster than Others

By David E. Petzal

My revelation that I owned a .30/06 that could shoot 200-grain bullets at 2,700 fps has created a creepy and unnatural amount of interest. I checked, just to see if my memory was correct, and it was—2,712. There are, indeed, “fast” barrels that give you more velocity than you have a right to expect, and without blowing up your rifle. Over the years, I’ve owned only a few. In addition to the magical ’06, these were:

A .257 Roberts build by the late David Gentry, using a 21-inch barrel made by a company called Matco (this was in 1985) that seems to have faded from view. Even in this short tube I got 3,120 fps with 115-grain Nosler Partitions.

A .22/250 built about the same time by the late Seeley Masker with a 24-inch Hart barrel. With 50-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips, I got 3,900 fps right on the nose. I sold the rifle to Jim Carmichel who probably burned it out shooting prairie dogs.

A .270 built in 1994 by Kenny Jarrett with a 24-inch Schneider barrel. I got 3,190 fps with 130-grain Nosler Solid Bases. That is really moving for a standard .270.

A .270 WSM made by Mark Bansner in 2002 with a 23-inch Lilja barrel. 3,395 fps with 130-grain Swift Sciroccos.

A .300 Weatherby Accu-Mark made in 1998 at Saco, Maine. 26-inch barrel. I can get 3,250 fps out of 180-grain Swift Sciroccos.

The other rifles just plodded along and did their jobs.

Comments (60)

Top Rated
All Comments
from Jeff Bowers wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I've had an instance of different rifles firing the same round at different velocity. There was one range in Atlanta we went to that had a high-velocity trap with chronograph.

I always thought it had to do with bore width. A few thousandths of an inch makes a difference between pushing and spitting the round out. Is that the idea here? These makers use tighter or looser bores?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from AP wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I have a question, kinda related to the subject at hand. I am considering purchasing a Marlin XL7 in .25-06, which comes with a 22" barrel. A friend of mine told me that a .25-06 performs much better with a longer barrel, especially in the area of velocity. He suggested looking something with a 26" barrel. My question is would the extra length make that much of a difference? I would think a 22" barrel would work fine. Also, what were the numbers from that Jarrett Beanfield rifle, Mr. Petzal? What was its barrel length? Thanks.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 5 years 1 week ago

DP-
It sounds like you a "speed freak" Dave. I'm not saying this is a fault, you understand, it's just with handloading I always feel loading a better bullet was the goal for cleaner kills. Accuracy to me with a good bolt gun should easily keep shots into the 1 to 2 inch group catagory.That's if shooters are being honest abou it!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 5 years 1 week ago

AP I think a 22" barrel is fine too. If you go longer I'd stop at 24". Long barrels are a pain to carry in the woods.
Jeff I agree with you. A tight bore doesn't allow an undue amount of gas to pass the bullet.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 5 years 1 week ago

To AP: Generally, a 26-inch barrel is a pain in the ass unless it's on a pure varmint rifle such as a .220 Swift or a beanfield gun that burns a lot of powder. One of the nice things about the .20/06 is that it doesn't burn a lot of powder, so you will do best with a 24-inch barrel, which is what's on my .25/06.

To Ralph: I used to be a speed freak, but in the mid-90s I saw the light and actually hunted with cartridges that delivered less than 3,000 fps. The animals didn't seem to mind a bit, and I certainly didn't either.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 5 years 1 week ago

AP:
By far the easiest way to up the velocity of a fast centerfire is to lengthen the barrel, all other factors being equal. Lazzaroni's rifles get great velocity mostly because they have 28" barrels. A short barreled .25-06 is like a Mustang with a 4 cylinder engine. A .25-06 is really a .25 magnum, and you don't want a slow one, so get the 26 inch barrel unless you have a good reason not to. You'd do better with a .260 or 7mm-08 in a shorter barrel.

Dave, are these fast rifles of yours also accurate? Jeff4066 raised an interesting point; are these barrels slightly tight (allowing more pressure behind the bullet)or are they exactly right (less resistance to the bullet's travel down the bore)? Are they exceptionally smooth (most of them are custom so I assume they are). In a world where we blow out and 'improve' existing cartridges just to get an extra 100fps or so, getting it just because your barrel is made a certain way seems like a pretty good deal.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from MLH wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Just a detail or two - Lazzeroni velocities are published from 24 and 27 inch barrels, albeit, at 3,000 ft elevation. His rifles have 22-28 inch barrels. The cartridges are, by most everyone's definition, much more overbore than the competition.

So, when is a cartridge a magnum except in name?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 5 years 1 week ago

The velocity with that 257 Roberts is amazing. A 24" tube is rated 300fps less. Even an AI falls very short. I'll bet you double checked the settings on your powder scale and everything else.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ishawooa wrote 5 years 1 week ago

All of those velocities exceed what I have encountered in my rifles over the years although I have approached the number given for the .270 Winchester. I purposely hold the velocity in my .22-.250 to about 3800 due to accuracy and barrel heat genertion from continuous firing. One interesting rifle I have is the 7 mm RUM with a Douglas Premium hand picked 26 inch stainless barrel which shoots a 168 gr. Berger VLD in front of a max load of Retumbo at 3420 fps. I can back off two grains and consistently get 3400. There is very little variation from these numbers, so much so that it is spooky causing me to use a second chronograph to double check with identical findings. This is faster than either Berger or Hodgdon predicts. I have a theory regarding the reason why as well as the 2 grains not making much of a difference but since Walt Berger does not agree with me I not even going to discuss it. The rifle shoots unbelievably small groups which remain tight at extremely long range. I would mention that I shot the left rear leg off a jackrabbit at 1033 yards in front of witnesses with this rifle but I won't say it because you all would think I was lying. In reality I was aiming at his front shoulder anyway. The second shot missed entirely with the third one precisely hitting the same targeted shoulder. A post mortem was performed as well as a search for the expended bullets but we did not locate them due to previously disturbed surrounding soil conditions. One shot kills on deer and elk result with some frequency following careful wind doping plus utilization of a decent rest although I have never hit one in the left rear leg.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 5 years 1 week ago

To AP: Yes, they're all accurate, as are the loads themselves. I didn't set out to get these speeds; they turned up of their own accord. The only factor the rifles have in common is good barrels. All of them have SAAMI chambers. Beyond that, I can't even guess what makes them fast. Then you get the added mystery of the so-called "black hole" barrel that shoots everything well. I've had a few of those, too.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Muzzle velocity is all chemistry and physics. It's right in front of you. There's got to be a reason why one barrel is faster than another.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from JD wrote 5 years 1 week ago

This is just like some trucks or cars, same engine and drivetrain yet one is a rocket on wheels while the other is a dead-ass all it's miserable life. Finding a rifle that is fast and accurate is like that only better!

Sweeter yet when your brother in law buys your exact same rifle ( that copycat thing) yet his can't reach your velocity even with your own ammo! Priceless! Gotta love a good barrel. Thanks David! Good article.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Brian Robinson wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Dave I must ask how the short barreled .257 Roberts was able to achieve that kind of velocity? All the load books I have max that combination out around 2,800. A .257 Ned Roberts pushing a 115 grain bullet at 3,120 fps is neck and neck with a 25-06.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Brian Robinson wrote 5 years 1 week ago

It seems difficult to get a 270 to push a 130 grain bullet to the advertised velocity of 3100 fps. Ken
Waters book "Pet Loads" has a vast collection of different loads for the 130 grain bullet,, very few of them actually get to the 3100 fps mark.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from semp wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Ah git 4.567 "/sec from ma American Standard flusher :-D

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 5 years 1 week ago

To Whitefish: I have no idea. I was using a heavy charge of slow powder, and was simply looking for an accurate load when that turned up. Bear in mind that this sort of thing doesn't happen very often. The five guns in the post are the only super-speedy ones in 25 years of systematic chronographing and lots and lots of shooting. For a while I thought my chronograph might be off, but when I sent the .22/250 to Jim Carmichel he clocked it and got exactly the same muzzle velocity I did. Who knows?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from olsingleshot wrote 5 years 1 week ago

The big question is: does the extra velocity mean anything? Does it make the round more accurate? Does it take game more ethically? What is does mean is with most necked cartridges, the barrel life is shortened by all that slow burning powder.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from elmer f. wrote 5 years 1 week ago

well, that's nice, but the obvious question is WHY?! why not do the homework first so you can explain what makes one barrel better than others. so we can understand it. is the finish of the barrel smoother than others? twist rate, grooves and lands different, chamber meticuously fitted, metalurgy, what? there has to be a reason. only the best barrel makers would know why, if someone does. but your statement, is no different thn saying i just bought a new corvette zr1, and it gets 65 mpg. there has to be a reason, and we want to know what it is!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Del in KS wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Dave,

Please allow me to take this one. The extra velocity means the gun shoots with a little flatter trajectory and the bullet gets there a little faster. Higher velocity may or may not result in better accuracy each gun is different. More ethically? Perhaps minutely. Barrel life shortened maybe but not much different from other loads.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from PbHead wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Science Officer Spock was once forced to consider the element that humans call "Luck". Great rifles may be great machines created by superior craftsmen but a little good luck and blessings from St. Hubert can't hurt. Happy Easter to all.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 5 years 1 week ago

T.O.T.= Time On Target

Higher Velocity lessen the TOT, lessens the time elements.. like gravity and wind....have to affect the projectile.

You can see the obvious benefits in long range varmint and target shooting.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from idduckhntr wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Davidpetzal this is a unrelated ? I saw a piece you did on the 577 TREX have you shot said rifle? Just wondering looked at the ballistics for it and found it to be very impressive for a caliber of that magnatude.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from YooperJack wrote 5 years 1 week ago

At what point does this extra speed become significant? I would guess that if my 06 shoots at 2700 and yours at 2715, there is no practical difference. However, if the difference is 200 fps, would it begin to matter? Would it ever matter if shots were kept under 200 yards?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 1 week ago

When I was working up some 165 grain handloads with various bullets a while back, I was getting velocities approaching 2,950 fps at less than Max Load where the data I was using suggested that I should be in the 2,800 fps range. Assuming I was doing something wrong or had the wrong case, powder, primer, seating depth combination, I backed off the powder charge. I never thought about that much deviation in barrels.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Zermoid wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Realistically a few fps more or less has no real meaning, but as Yooper said a 200 fps difference is probably worth taking note of. A little flatter trajectory and some extra FtLbs of energy on target without changing the load is always a good thing in my book.
As far as barrel wear is concerned if you are firing the same load in 2 rifles and getting faster velocity out of one than the other I really don't see how it can affect barrel life, the heat and pressure would be pretty much the same should it not? You are burning the same powder in each and it's only capable of producing so much heat right?

Velocity is a combination of inertial weight, pressure of propellant burning, length of burn time, and yes friction of the barrel, so too tight a barrel will slow a bullet as will too loose a barrel due to pressure loss, I'd guess the faster barrels are a result of perfect size and smoothness. Makes sense anyway. Did you try slugging the barrels to see if they were a different bore size than the slower ones?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tim Platt wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Yeah I'm wondering why. How can the math just not add up? I've heard of the moly coated bullets being faster but that doesn't seem to be a factor here. Zermoid thinks it is perfect bore size Jeff4066 touched on it but I'm not sure where he was going... I think he was thinking what I am thinking in that a tighter fit would actually create more pressure and faster velocities? Have these guns been shot a whole lot and still perform the same? That would tend to disprove my theory... maybe just a perfect finish on the bore but you would have to think shooting a lot would smooth out the bore also. How about breaking the barrel down to a molecular level. Isn't that why people were freezing barrels for a while? Unfortunately I don't understand the metallurgy enough to hazard any more guesses but I hate just saying this barrel is faster for no particular reason...

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from NM Mike wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I believe Weatherby lists 180gr factory loads at ~3250fps. Is this really 'fast'?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from sarg wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Slower, lighter loadings are usually more accurate. All target loads are lighter and more accurate. higher speed loadings are as a norm, not as accurate.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Happy Myles wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I own a 300 Win Mag by the late Monty Kennedy with a 24 inch barrel of unknown origin and also own a 300 Win Mag by the late Seely Masker with a 24 inch Shilen barrel. The Shilen barrel is stainless, the barrel on the Kennedy rifle is not.
The Masker rifle gets more than 100 feet per second than the Kennedy rifle with the same load.

I've checked the bores on both, and thy seem fine. I've often said in these posts that the study of ballistics is science, not black magic. But, sometimes you wonder. Any chance stainless performs differently than non stainless? Different rifling techniques perhaps?

That 257 Roberts must be on steroids. Kindest Regards

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from T.W. Davidson wrote 5 years 1 week ago

All . . .

I've got a Savage Model 111 in .270 Winchester with a 22" barrel that routinely produces muzzle velocities of 3120-3150 fps with 130-grain bullets. No pressure signs, always (ugly) reliable and accurate.

My Remington 700 Classic in .257 Roberts (24" barrel), when fired with handloads using Hodgdon's H-100-V published data (48 grains/100-grain bullet, listed from Hodgdon's website), produces muzzle velocities about 100 fps faster than Hodgdon's published velocity of 3205 fps, or just over 3300 fps. No pressure signs. Around MOA accuracy.

The same rifle, firing 115-grain bullets and 46-grains of H-100-V, produces average muzzle velocities that are also about 100 fps faster than Hodgdon's published velocity, or right around 3150 fps. Again, this is from a 24" new barrel. No pressure signs, and MOA accuracy or slightly better.

(My daughter's M-70 in .257 Roberts, with a .22" barrel, with the same exact H-100-V loads/bullet weights as listed above, produces velocities around 3250 fps with 100-grain bullets and around 3100 fps for 115-grain bullets. No pressure signs. MOA accuracy.)

(I weigh every powder load for each case with two different digital scales, one of which is part of an RCBS electronic dispenser/measurer. I am paranoid about a double load or an accidental high load, with resultant Bad Bang Consequences [my own definition for "BBC"), which is why I always weigh each powder load twice.)

On the other hand, all my other rifles (except for a .257 AI that's in a shop getting a new barrel) produce velocities that very closely reflect published numbers in the major handloading manuals.

It seems that each rifle is as different in performance and personality as each person is.

TWD

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from blueridge wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I once assisted John Ross in chrongraphing two different 7mm barrels...one was a brand-new rifle, whose name I shall not mention, and the other was a little Spanish Mauser, chopped up and sportized, as some ham-handed creep would have said. The little Mauser shot circles around the new piece, with the same ammo. No barrel bedding, no fancy anything on the Mauser. This was driving Ross crazy until he found that the Mauser had a hand-lapped, very smooth barrel. It had a shorter barrel, but shot better AND faster.

Go figure.

Blue

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I called a friend of mine(a Mechanical engineer by day)about this topic, and he offered me some information.
He claimed the vast majority of ballistic testing is done by the military, while not all inclusive, they certainly study many variables such as powders/burn rates, primers, bullet seating, rifling depth, and barrel production to name a few. They(military)look for consistency under all kinds of conditions. At the end of all of this, he said; most of them just don't know why some barrels perform better then others-all veriables being egual.
My friend, being an avid hunter/shooter, bascially said if you come across a rifle like this thanks your lucky stars and shoot with it!
This is one man's opinion, of course, but take it for what it's worth?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Happy Myles wrote 5 years 1 week ago

It is often mentioned a longer barrel will give higher velocity. I have two rifles where the opposite is true. They are both 22/250s by Remington, one a single shot 40X by the custom shop with a 26 inch barrel, the other a 700 with a 24 inch bull barrel sporter model. The shorter barrel is much faster, both have about the same mileage. Don't have the data here at the office, but they certainly had me shaking my chronograph at the time.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 1 week ago

So....the next time I advertise a rifle for sale, I should include a sales pitch on how fast the barrel is?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 5 years 1 week ago

To Idaho Duck Hunter: I have never shot a .577 T-Rex, and have no intention of doing so. I would like to live out the rest of my life walking upright like a human being.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 5 years 1 week ago

You can never have too much horsepower.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Happy Myles wrote 5 years 1 week ago

WA Mnthunter, I've read your posts too long. If you sell a rifle, it's not because it is too fast or slow, it's because it does not shoot straight. All the Kindest Regards.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 1 week ago

LMAO! Correct you are, sir.

What about a FAST inaccurate rifle for sale? He he

Best regards,
WMH

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 5 years 1 week ago

T.W.
That Hodgdon H-100V must be some new powder I don't see in my manuals.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from T.W. Davidson wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Mr. Petzal . . .

Do you still have the 21" tube .257 Roberts? Is it a lefty? If the answer to both questions is yes, would you care to sell it? (I suspect the answer is "No," but I thought I'd ask.)

All . . .

I encourage shooters of the .257 Roberts, 257 AI, 7x57 Mauser and 7x57 AI to experiment with Hodgdon's H-100-V powder. I'm finding very good results with H-100-V in three different rifles, all of which are producing chronographed velocities faster than the published loads on Hodgdon's website, but using Hodgon's data, ordinary cases, and standard large rifle primers. I am left to surmise that Hodgdon's .257 Roberts test barrel is very ordinary in terms of the velocities it produces.

On another note, it has long been a minor point of contention with me that the major ammunition manufacturers have never loaded the .257 Roberts to its actual potential. (Just the opposite, actually.) The .257 Roberts case is supposed to have the same powder capacity as the .25 WSSM, and yet factory .25 WSSM and handloaded .25 WSSM loads (when tuned to a warm but safe SAMMI pressure of around 60,000-63,000 psi) produces velocities at or very near those of factory 25-06 loads.

When loaded properly, there is thus very little performance difference between the .257 Roberts, .25 WSSM and 25-06. This is due to a more efficient bore size to powder capacity ratio in the .257 Roberts (and .25 WSSM) than in the 25-06, just as the 25-06 has a far better bore size to powder capacity ratio than in the .257 Weatherby. Achieving more with less always interests me.

TWD

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Gunslinger wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I do not think the riflers liste above ae any faster than the 25-06. I have a 700 Classic in 25-06 that I use Win. Chester Ballistic Tips when hunting out in the Rockies. I doubt any of thoe mentioned above ae any better that mine. It will shoot out to 400 yds with only a 3-4" drop.So I hold about even with teh back of the Lopes, deer and the bullet usually enters about midway down the shoulder area. Thats good enough for me. AS for the 257 Roberts, it may be a tad faster, but not enough to get excted over.I also use teh Swift Sciroccos in l80 gr when hunting Elk and Mule deer. The bullet drops very little at 350 yds. So until I find a bullet that will lcate the Elk and Mulies for me, I will stick with my tried and proven firearms and ammo. Shoot-um-straight and often

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from T.W. Davidson wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Jim . . .

H-100-V has only been on the market perhaps for the last year or so, and even then was difficult to obtain for quite some time. I saw advertisements for it in various gun magazines and so I asked the local gunshops about it, and nobody had heard of it or could get any of it. I finally called Hodgdon, politely harranged the people there about gunpowder availability, learned a lot about the powder (and about how its pressure-wave functions over time) in my chats with their tech guys, and from there heavily (and repeatedly) encouraged a connection between one gunshop and a Hodgdon distributor.

H-100-V is now available at two or three gunshops in my area. Hodgdon told me it distributes it across the U.S. If all else fails, I encourage you to contact Hodgdon directly.

H-100-V is definitely worth trying. In efficient cartridges it gives velocity performances very similar to that of (unfortunately no longer available, for no good reason) Norma 205, a wonderful, very high performance powder from the 70s and 80s (back when I was a kid).

TWD

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from eackerlund wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Does the name "Lazzeroni" mean anything to anyone here?

Petzal and Bourjaily should know what I'm talking about, and I practical guarantee that Carmichael does.

Lazzeroni is an Italian gunsmith who makes specialty rifles. They cost $6,000 apiece but they are worth every dollar.

He makes guns in all of the following calibers:
.243, .257, .264, .284, .308 and .338

All of them fling lead in excess of 3300 fps at the muzzle, and 2400 fps at 500 yards.

The muzzle and 500-yard energy of the .243 is 2470 and 985 lb/inch sqared, with an 85-grain solid.

The muzzle and 500-yard energy of the .338 is 5420 and 2920 lb/inch squared, with a 225-grain solid.

And neither one of them drops more than 30 inches at 500 yards.

That outperforms even the .338 Lapua Magnum, which until a few years ago (when Lazzeroni introduced his line) had been considered the premier long-range anti-personel weapon.

These numbers are with Lazzeroni's "factory" or mass-production loads. Imagine what you could do if you hand-loaded his brass...

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from eackerlund wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Oh, I should clarify with the bullet drop for those Lazzeroni guns:

Those numbers are when these guns are zeroed at 100.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from eackerlund wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Hey Gunslinger,

Where is your zero on those guns you are saying only drop 3 or 4 inches at 350 and 400 yards?

The only way I can see this as plausible is if you've set them at 250 yard zeros.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Shaky wrote 5 years 1 week ago

To all; I've had personal experience with "fast" barrels.
blueridge hit the nail right on the head when he mentioned that one rifle was lapped. In 1970 I worked part time with a gunsmith who specialized in re-barreling
He re-barreled a 722Rem. .308 to 22/250 for me, and we checked the velocity of my old load of 36gr. 4064 and 55gr. Sie. bullets, 3683fps average of 10 shots. This is a Douglas premium, 1 in 14"24"long. An old friend who hung around the shop said he would hand lap that barrel for me in exchange for a Tim. trigger for his M98 Mouser.
Of course I agreed, because I wasn't completely happy with the accuracy of the new rifle. Two weeks later we chronographed the same load again, 3794fps ave of 10 shots. The barrel heated much less, groups tightened, and
barrel was not fouled after 130 rounds. There is a certain knack to lapping a barrel, and probably, not everyone is able to successfully do it, but if you can, it will definitely improve the performance of any rifle.
I should mention that there was much less variation in shot to shot vel. after lapping, and also I dropped my powder charge to 35gr. and still shoot this rifle at least once a week and the accuracy is still better than is reasonably expected from a new rifle of the same cal.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 5 years 1 week ago

To T.W. Davidson: No, the Gentry Roberts went down the road a long time ago. Wish I had it back; it was a great little rifle.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Gunslinger wrote 5 years 1 week ago

eacherlnd: My Rocky Mtn Huntin rifles are Rem.Classic custon shop rifles, with 24" bbls. Both zeroed in at 200 yds + 1". The Sciroccos ammo is a jewel for my 06 and the Winchester Ballastic ll7 grs. With the Polymer tips and the longer bbls on the rifles, they are outstanding for accuracy and distance.I know what the books say about the drop at 300 and 400 yds. My longest shot todate was 345 yds with the o6 and 325 with the 25-06 . Thee two guns ae the best I have ever owned and I also own a Custom Mauser with solid rib on top of bbl and dble set trigges and 3 bolts to hold action to stock and its 26" bbl.It will not come cose to the 700's, so till I fnd a guy who hasa lots of $$$ it stays in th Vault. It's beautiful gun stock wise and metal wise with some engraving, made in Germany but no name just initials that mean zilt to me. I saw the gun and traded some junkers I had. When I get my price or traders , it will be gone. It also is a 30-06. The dble set trigges fires at 12oz of pull a tadlight for woods hunting or with other hunters.CAn almost fire by looking at it. But love the dble set triggers. If keep, may have bored out to a 338-06. Bore i perfect and lands of great. My gun smith has taken it apart and found nothing wrong to keep fromshooting closer shots. I just leave it be andshow if now and then. Shot-um-straight and often.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ChevJames wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I once had a Dan Wesson .357 magnum revolver. The velocities from its 8-inch-plus barrel were less than you could get from a six-inch revolver from S&W or Ruger in the same caliber. The reason? Gain twist rifling. The DW's rifling rate started out slow and then increased; the idea was that you'd put less stress on the bullet--and the revolver--by doing things that way. Nonetheless, my DW revolver blew up one day 20 years ago while I was shooting Remington factory .357 magnum loads. The cylinder was perfectly intact; the frame had simply let go because it was a bad investment casting. To this day, I avoid investment-cast firearms, although some may be pretty good. I'll take forged steel every time, thank you!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Del in KS wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Hey guys, Let's help make a sick kid happy. Punch my name. When you get to the profile click on "My Donated Hunt" Read the caption, please give it a thumbs up and leave that kid an attaboy. You will be glad you did when you read the caption.

Editors, How about an editors pick!!!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Gunslinger wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Del in KS: Have you got a tad more info on this kid?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jeff Bowers wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Dr. Ralph: Sorry if I needed to explain more clearly. When I started reloading, I asked about different bullets. I mean, when I reloaded .357 (which, ironically,I found, is a .357 in. diameter round), you could get Speer or Hornady rounds in .356, .357, and .358.

So I started a "Why a thousandth of an inch makes a difference" study. Some said it was to increase velocity, some said it was for "fat" or even older barrels.

So I've heard that some barrels can be a tad different between companies. Learning whether I'm wrong or not is why I hang out here.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Del in KS wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Gunslinger,

Sorry, all I know is what you see in the 2 photos and the captions. This sort of thing tears my heart out. I was browsing photos when this one came to my attention.
Thank you everyone that responded to my request. As this is being written he is up to 9 thumbs up and a nice list of comments.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from cliff68 wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I have two guns that are faster than they should be. One is a Winchester Moel 70 XTR in .270 that will get 3200 fps with a 130 grain Hornady spire point and H4831. The other is a first year Ruger Mark 2 varmint with the polished stainless tube and blued receiver in 220 Swift. It will drive a 55 grain spire point at 3900 fps with H414. Neither load shows pressure signs and both will shoot MOA or better. Just by cleaning these guns you can tell that the bores are smooth as glass, and in my opinion is what makes them shoot a little faster. Speed kills peaches!!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tim Platt wrote 5 years 1 week ago

eackerlund, John Lazzeroni is an American not Italian and his rifles are manufactured in Tucson, Arizona... I had a Warbird I sold to a friend after only a week of ownership when my wife realized I could not afford it. His cartridges cost about $100 per 20 five years ago.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Sort of like the .44 Auto Mag I had in 1981 that darn near cost a month's pay for me at the time. When the Chief Financial Officer found out how much it cost, it went down the road, too. But it was fun to shoot for that couple of weeks! Luckily demand for them was higher than supply at the time and I recovered my investment....

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Gunslinger wrote 5 years 3 days ago

All being equal, I do believe the rate of twist, length of bbl's and type Ammo plus your ability to hit your target seperates the good bbls from the not so good. The last 3 guns I bought, all 3 are above average. Aslong as i continue to hunt, these 3rifles will be my gun of choice.They are Remington 700's and a new Marlin XL7. And, I doubt either of them are all 3 would cost l4K bucks.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 11 hours ago

TWD

I note that Hodgdon does not list the H-100-V as one of their 'Extreme Powders' which according to them, are insensitive to all temperature variations.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Gunslinger wrote 4 years 52 weeks ago

To All:When we see and read about new rifles being tested by our expert shooters they all have 24" bbls. The when the rifle becomes available on the market for us its in 22" bbl lenghts. Only way to get a 24 is by special order from the mfg and then some will no do so.I assime that the 24" bbls will give better results for the mfgers or why would they not test the market version of 22"? Anyone got the answer>

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Zermoid wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Jeff4066,

I have a Llama 45, and it never shot very accurately since new, so I got the bright idea to slug the barrel. (after trigger job, oversize link pin, tightened up barrel bushing, polished crown, etc.) Found it was a little more than .001 oversize, no jacketed bullets shot well, but it liked cast bullets, only guess is the lead could expand that .001 to get a good bite on the rifling where the jacketed couldn't?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report

Post a Comment

from davidpetzal wrote 5 years 1 week ago

To Idaho Duck Hunter: I have never shot a .577 T-Rex, and have no intention of doing so. I would like to live out the rest of my life walking upright like a human being.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Muzzle velocity is all chemistry and physics. It's right in front of you. There's got to be a reason why one barrel is faster than another.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from PbHead wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Science Officer Spock was once forced to consider the element that humans call "Luck". Great rifles may be great machines created by superior craftsmen but a little good luck and blessings from St. Hubert can't hurt. Happy Easter to all.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Happy Myles wrote 5 years 1 week ago

WA Mnthunter, I've read your posts too long. If you sell a rifle, it's not because it is too fast or slow, it's because it does not shoot straight. All the Kindest Regards.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 1 week ago

LMAO! Correct you are, sir.

What about a FAST inaccurate rifle for sale? He he

Best regards,
WMH

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Del in KS wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Gunslinger,

Sorry, all I know is what you see in the 2 photos and the captions. This sort of thing tears my heart out. I was browsing photos when this one came to my attention.
Thank you everyone that responded to my request. As this is being written he is up to 9 thumbs up and a nice list of comments.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from cliff68 wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I have two guns that are faster than they should be. One is a Winchester Moel 70 XTR in .270 that will get 3200 fps with a 130 grain Hornady spire point and H4831. The other is a first year Ruger Mark 2 varmint with the polished stainless tube and blued receiver in 220 Swift. It will drive a 55 grain spire point at 3900 fps with H414. Neither load shows pressure signs and both will shoot MOA or better. Just by cleaning these guns you can tell that the bores are smooth as glass, and in my opinion is what makes them shoot a little faster. Speed kills peaches!!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jeff Bowers wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I've had an instance of different rifles firing the same round at different velocity. There was one range in Atlanta we went to that had a high-velocity trap with chronograph.

I always thought it had to do with bore width. A few thousandths of an inch makes a difference between pushing and spitting the round out. Is that the idea here? These makers use tighter or looser bores?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from AP wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I have a question, kinda related to the subject at hand. I am considering purchasing a Marlin XL7 in .25-06, which comes with a 22" barrel. A friend of mine told me that a .25-06 performs much better with a longer barrel, especially in the area of velocity. He suggested looking something with a 26" barrel. My question is would the extra length make that much of a difference? I would think a 22" barrel would work fine. Also, what were the numbers from that Jarrett Beanfield rifle, Mr. Petzal? What was its barrel length? Thanks.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 5 years 1 week ago

DP-
It sounds like you a "speed freak" Dave. I'm not saying this is a fault, you understand, it's just with handloading I always feel loading a better bullet was the goal for cleaner kills. Accuracy to me with a good bolt gun should easily keep shots into the 1 to 2 inch group catagory.That's if shooters are being honest abou it!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 5 years 1 week ago

AP I think a 22" barrel is fine too. If you go longer I'd stop at 24". Long barrels are a pain to carry in the woods.
Jeff I agree with you. A tight bore doesn't allow an undue amount of gas to pass the bullet.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 5 years 1 week ago

To AP: Generally, a 26-inch barrel is a pain in the ass unless it's on a pure varmint rifle such as a .220 Swift or a beanfield gun that burns a lot of powder. One of the nice things about the .20/06 is that it doesn't burn a lot of powder, so you will do best with a 24-inch barrel, which is what's on my .25/06.

To Ralph: I used to be a speed freak, but in the mid-90s I saw the light and actually hunted with cartridges that delivered less than 3,000 fps. The animals didn't seem to mind a bit, and I certainly didn't either.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 5 years 1 week ago

AP:
By far the easiest way to up the velocity of a fast centerfire is to lengthen the barrel, all other factors being equal. Lazzaroni's rifles get great velocity mostly because they have 28" barrels. A short barreled .25-06 is like a Mustang with a 4 cylinder engine. A .25-06 is really a .25 magnum, and you don't want a slow one, so get the 26 inch barrel unless you have a good reason not to. You'd do better with a .260 or 7mm-08 in a shorter barrel.

Dave, are these fast rifles of yours also accurate? Jeff4066 raised an interesting point; are these barrels slightly tight (allowing more pressure behind the bullet)or are they exactly right (less resistance to the bullet's travel down the bore)? Are they exceptionally smooth (most of them are custom so I assume they are). In a world where we blow out and 'improve' existing cartridges just to get an extra 100fps or so, getting it just because your barrel is made a certain way seems like a pretty good deal.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from MLH wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Just a detail or two - Lazzeroni velocities are published from 24 and 27 inch barrels, albeit, at 3,000 ft elevation. His rifles have 22-28 inch barrels. The cartridges are, by most everyone's definition, much more overbore than the competition.

So, when is a cartridge a magnum except in name?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 5 years 1 week ago

The velocity with that 257 Roberts is amazing. A 24" tube is rated 300fps less. Even an AI falls very short. I'll bet you double checked the settings on your powder scale and everything else.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ishawooa wrote 5 years 1 week ago

All of those velocities exceed what I have encountered in my rifles over the years although I have approached the number given for the .270 Winchester. I purposely hold the velocity in my .22-.250 to about 3800 due to accuracy and barrel heat genertion from continuous firing. One interesting rifle I have is the 7 mm RUM with a Douglas Premium hand picked 26 inch stainless barrel which shoots a 168 gr. Berger VLD in front of a max load of Retumbo at 3420 fps. I can back off two grains and consistently get 3400. There is very little variation from these numbers, so much so that it is spooky causing me to use a second chronograph to double check with identical findings. This is faster than either Berger or Hodgdon predicts. I have a theory regarding the reason why as well as the 2 grains not making much of a difference but since Walt Berger does not agree with me I not even going to discuss it. The rifle shoots unbelievably small groups which remain tight at extremely long range. I would mention that I shot the left rear leg off a jackrabbit at 1033 yards in front of witnesses with this rifle but I won't say it because you all would think I was lying. In reality I was aiming at his front shoulder anyway. The second shot missed entirely with the third one precisely hitting the same targeted shoulder. A post mortem was performed as well as a search for the expended bullets but we did not locate them due to previously disturbed surrounding soil conditions. One shot kills on deer and elk result with some frequency following careful wind doping plus utilization of a decent rest although I have never hit one in the left rear leg.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 5 years 1 week ago

To AP: Yes, they're all accurate, as are the loads themselves. I didn't set out to get these speeds; they turned up of their own accord. The only factor the rifles have in common is good barrels. All of them have SAAMI chambers. Beyond that, I can't even guess what makes them fast. Then you get the added mystery of the so-called "black hole" barrel that shoots everything well. I've had a few of those, too.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from JD wrote 5 years 1 week ago

This is just like some trucks or cars, same engine and drivetrain yet one is a rocket on wheels while the other is a dead-ass all it's miserable life. Finding a rifle that is fast and accurate is like that only better!

Sweeter yet when your brother in law buys your exact same rifle ( that copycat thing) yet his can't reach your velocity even with your own ammo! Priceless! Gotta love a good barrel. Thanks David! Good article.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Brian Robinson wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Dave I must ask how the short barreled .257 Roberts was able to achieve that kind of velocity? All the load books I have max that combination out around 2,800. A .257 Ned Roberts pushing a 115 grain bullet at 3,120 fps is neck and neck with a 25-06.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Brian Robinson wrote 5 years 1 week ago

It seems difficult to get a 270 to push a 130 grain bullet to the advertised velocity of 3100 fps. Ken
Waters book "Pet Loads" has a vast collection of different loads for the 130 grain bullet,, very few of them actually get to the 3100 fps mark.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from semp wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Ah git 4.567 "/sec from ma American Standard flusher :-D

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 5 years 1 week ago

To Whitefish: I have no idea. I was using a heavy charge of slow powder, and was simply looking for an accurate load when that turned up. Bear in mind that this sort of thing doesn't happen very often. The five guns in the post are the only super-speedy ones in 25 years of systematic chronographing and lots and lots of shooting. For a while I thought my chronograph might be off, but when I sent the .22/250 to Jim Carmichel he clocked it and got exactly the same muzzle velocity I did. Who knows?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from olsingleshot wrote 5 years 1 week ago

The big question is: does the extra velocity mean anything? Does it make the round more accurate? Does it take game more ethically? What is does mean is with most necked cartridges, the barrel life is shortened by all that slow burning powder.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from elmer f. wrote 5 years 1 week ago

well, that's nice, but the obvious question is WHY?! why not do the homework first so you can explain what makes one barrel better than others. so we can understand it. is the finish of the barrel smoother than others? twist rate, grooves and lands different, chamber meticuously fitted, metalurgy, what? there has to be a reason. only the best barrel makers would know why, if someone does. but your statement, is no different thn saying i just bought a new corvette zr1, and it gets 65 mpg. there has to be a reason, and we want to know what it is!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Del in KS wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Dave,

Please allow me to take this one. The extra velocity means the gun shoots with a little flatter trajectory and the bullet gets there a little faster. Higher velocity may or may not result in better accuracy each gun is different. More ethically? Perhaps minutely. Barrel life shortened maybe but not much different from other loads.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 5 years 1 week ago

T.O.T.= Time On Target

Higher Velocity lessen the TOT, lessens the time elements.. like gravity and wind....have to affect the projectile.

You can see the obvious benefits in long range varmint and target shooting.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from idduckhntr wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Davidpetzal this is a unrelated ? I saw a piece you did on the 577 TREX have you shot said rifle? Just wondering looked at the ballistics for it and found it to be very impressive for a caliber of that magnatude.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from YooperJack wrote 5 years 1 week ago

At what point does this extra speed become significant? I would guess that if my 06 shoots at 2700 and yours at 2715, there is no practical difference. However, if the difference is 200 fps, would it begin to matter? Would it ever matter if shots were kept under 200 yards?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 1 week ago

When I was working up some 165 grain handloads with various bullets a while back, I was getting velocities approaching 2,950 fps at less than Max Load where the data I was using suggested that I should be in the 2,800 fps range. Assuming I was doing something wrong or had the wrong case, powder, primer, seating depth combination, I backed off the powder charge. I never thought about that much deviation in barrels.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Zermoid wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Realistically a few fps more or less has no real meaning, but as Yooper said a 200 fps difference is probably worth taking note of. A little flatter trajectory and some extra FtLbs of energy on target without changing the load is always a good thing in my book.
As far as barrel wear is concerned if you are firing the same load in 2 rifles and getting faster velocity out of one than the other I really don't see how it can affect barrel life, the heat and pressure would be pretty much the same should it not? You are burning the same powder in each and it's only capable of producing so much heat right?

Velocity is a combination of inertial weight, pressure of propellant burning, length of burn time, and yes friction of the barrel, so too tight a barrel will slow a bullet as will too loose a barrel due to pressure loss, I'd guess the faster barrels are a result of perfect size and smoothness. Makes sense anyway. Did you try slugging the barrels to see if they were a different bore size than the slower ones?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tim Platt wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Yeah I'm wondering why. How can the math just not add up? I've heard of the moly coated bullets being faster but that doesn't seem to be a factor here. Zermoid thinks it is perfect bore size Jeff4066 touched on it but I'm not sure where he was going... I think he was thinking what I am thinking in that a tighter fit would actually create more pressure and faster velocities? Have these guns been shot a whole lot and still perform the same? That would tend to disprove my theory... maybe just a perfect finish on the bore but you would have to think shooting a lot would smooth out the bore also. How about breaking the barrel down to a molecular level. Isn't that why people were freezing barrels for a while? Unfortunately I don't understand the metallurgy enough to hazard any more guesses but I hate just saying this barrel is faster for no particular reason...

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from NM Mike wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I believe Weatherby lists 180gr factory loads at ~3250fps. Is this really 'fast'?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from sarg wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Slower, lighter loadings are usually more accurate. All target loads are lighter and more accurate. higher speed loadings are as a norm, not as accurate.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Happy Myles wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I own a 300 Win Mag by the late Monty Kennedy with a 24 inch barrel of unknown origin and also own a 300 Win Mag by the late Seely Masker with a 24 inch Shilen barrel. The Shilen barrel is stainless, the barrel on the Kennedy rifle is not.
The Masker rifle gets more than 100 feet per second than the Kennedy rifle with the same load.

I've checked the bores on both, and thy seem fine. I've often said in these posts that the study of ballistics is science, not black magic. But, sometimes you wonder. Any chance stainless performs differently than non stainless? Different rifling techniques perhaps?

That 257 Roberts must be on steroids. Kindest Regards

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from T.W. Davidson wrote 5 years 1 week ago

All . . .

I've got a Savage Model 111 in .270 Winchester with a 22" barrel that routinely produces muzzle velocities of 3120-3150 fps with 130-grain bullets. No pressure signs, always (ugly) reliable and accurate.

My Remington 700 Classic in .257 Roberts (24" barrel), when fired with handloads using Hodgdon's H-100-V published data (48 grains/100-grain bullet, listed from Hodgdon's website), produces muzzle velocities about 100 fps faster than Hodgdon's published velocity of 3205 fps, or just over 3300 fps. No pressure signs. Around MOA accuracy.

The same rifle, firing 115-grain bullets and 46-grains of H-100-V, produces average muzzle velocities that are also about 100 fps faster than Hodgdon's published velocity, or right around 3150 fps. Again, this is from a 24" new barrel. No pressure signs, and MOA accuracy or slightly better.

(My daughter's M-70 in .257 Roberts, with a .22" barrel, with the same exact H-100-V loads/bullet weights as listed above, produces velocities around 3250 fps with 100-grain bullets and around 3100 fps for 115-grain bullets. No pressure signs. MOA accuracy.)

(I weigh every powder load for each case with two different digital scales, one of which is part of an RCBS electronic dispenser/measurer. I am paranoid about a double load or an accidental high load, with resultant Bad Bang Consequences [my own definition for "BBC"), which is why I always weigh each powder load twice.)

On the other hand, all my other rifles (except for a .257 AI that's in a shop getting a new barrel) produce velocities that very closely reflect published numbers in the major handloading manuals.

It seems that each rifle is as different in performance and personality as each person is.

TWD

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from blueridge wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I once assisted John Ross in chrongraphing two different 7mm barrels...one was a brand-new rifle, whose name I shall not mention, and the other was a little Spanish Mauser, chopped up and sportized, as some ham-handed creep would have said. The little Mauser shot circles around the new piece, with the same ammo. No barrel bedding, no fancy anything on the Mauser. This was driving Ross crazy until he found that the Mauser had a hand-lapped, very smooth barrel. It had a shorter barrel, but shot better AND faster.

Go figure.

Blue

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I called a friend of mine(a Mechanical engineer by day)about this topic, and he offered me some information.
He claimed the vast majority of ballistic testing is done by the military, while not all inclusive, they certainly study many variables such as powders/burn rates, primers, bullet seating, rifling depth, and barrel production to name a few. They(military)look for consistency under all kinds of conditions. At the end of all of this, he said; most of them just don't know why some barrels perform better then others-all veriables being egual.
My friend, being an avid hunter/shooter, bascially said if you come across a rifle like this thanks your lucky stars and shoot with it!
This is one man's opinion, of course, but take it for what it's worth?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Happy Myles wrote 5 years 1 week ago

It is often mentioned a longer barrel will give higher velocity. I have two rifles where the opposite is true. They are both 22/250s by Remington, one a single shot 40X by the custom shop with a 26 inch barrel, the other a 700 with a 24 inch bull barrel sporter model. The shorter barrel is much faster, both have about the same mileage. Don't have the data here at the office, but they certainly had me shaking my chronograph at the time.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 1 week ago

So....the next time I advertise a rifle for sale, I should include a sales pitch on how fast the barrel is?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 5 years 1 week ago

You can never have too much horsepower.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 5 years 1 week ago

T.W.
That Hodgdon H-100V must be some new powder I don't see in my manuals.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from T.W. Davidson wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Mr. Petzal . . .

Do you still have the 21" tube .257 Roberts? Is it a lefty? If the answer to both questions is yes, would you care to sell it? (I suspect the answer is "No," but I thought I'd ask.)

All . . .

I encourage shooters of the .257 Roberts, 257 AI, 7x57 Mauser and 7x57 AI to experiment with Hodgdon's H-100-V powder. I'm finding very good results with H-100-V in three different rifles, all of which are producing chronographed velocities faster than the published loads on Hodgdon's website, but using Hodgon's data, ordinary cases, and standard large rifle primers. I am left to surmise that Hodgdon's .257 Roberts test barrel is very ordinary in terms of the velocities it produces.

On another note, it has long been a minor point of contention with me that the major ammunition manufacturers have never loaded the .257 Roberts to its actual potential. (Just the opposite, actually.) The .257 Roberts case is supposed to have the same powder capacity as the .25 WSSM, and yet factory .25 WSSM and handloaded .25 WSSM loads (when tuned to a warm but safe SAMMI pressure of around 60,000-63,000 psi) produces velocities at or very near those of factory 25-06 loads.

When loaded properly, there is thus very little performance difference between the .257 Roberts, .25 WSSM and 25-06. This is due to a more efficient bore size to powder capacity ratio in the .257 Roberts (and .25 WSSM) than in the 25-06, just as the 25-06 has a far better bore size to powder capacity ratio than in the .257 Weatherby. Achieving more with less always interests me.

TWD

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Gunslinger wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I do not think the riflers liste above ae any faster than the 25-06. I have a 700 Classic in 25-06 that I use Win. Chester Ballistic Tips when hunting out in the Rockies. I doubt any of thoe mentioned above ae any better that mine. It will shoot out to 400 yds with only a 3-4" drop.So I hold about even with teh back of the Lopes, deer and the bullet usually enters about midway down the shoulder area. Thats good enough for me. AS for the 257 Roberts, it may be a tad faster, but not enough to get excted over.I also use teh Swift Sciroccos in l80 gr when hunting Elk and Mule deer. The bullet drops very little at 350 yds. So until I find a bullet that will lcate the Elk and Mulies for me, I will stick with my tried and proven firearms and ammo. Shoot-um-straight and often

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from T.W. Davidson wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Jim . . .

H-100-V has only been on the market perhaps for the last year or so, and even then was difficult to obtain for quite some time. I saw advertisements for it in various gun magazines and so I asked the local gunshops about it, and nobody had heard of it or could get any of it. I finally called Hodgdon, politely harranged the people there about gunpowder availability, learned a lot about the powder (and about how its pressure-wave functions over time) in my chats with their tech guys, and from there heavily (and repeatedly) encouraged a connection between one gunshop and a Hodgdon distributor.

H-100-V is now available at two or three gunshops in my area. Hodgdon told me it distributes it across the U.S. If all else fails, I encourage you to contact Hodgdon directly.

H-100-V is definitely worth trying. In efficient cartridges it gives velocity performances very similar to that of (unfortunately no longer available, for no good reason) Norma 205, a wonderful, very high performance powder from the 70s and 80s (back when I was a kid).

TWD

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from eackerlund wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Does the name "Lazzeroni" mean anything to anyone here?

Petzal and Bourjaily should know what I'm talking about, and I practical guarantee that Carmichael does.

Lazzeroni is an Italian gunsmith who makes specialty rifles. They cost $6,000 apiece but they are worth every dollar.

He makes guns in all of the following calibers:
.243, .257, .264, .284, .308 and .338

All of them fling lead in excess of 3300 fps at the muzzle, and 2400 fps at 500 yards.

The muzzle and 500-yard energy of the .243 is 2470 and 985 lb/inch sqared, with an 85-grain solid.

The muzzle and 500-yard energy of the .338 is 5420 and 2920 lb/inch squared, with a 225-grain solid.

And neither one of them drops more than 30 inches at 500 yards.

That outperforms even the .338 Lapua Magnum, which until a few years ago (when Lazzeroni introduced his line) had been considered the premier long-range anti-personel weapon.

These numbers are with Lazzeroni's "factory" or mass-production loads. Imagine what you could do if you hand-loaded his brass...

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from eackerlund wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Oh, I should clarify with the bullet drop for those Lazzeroni guns:

Those numbers are when these guns are zeroed at 100.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from eackerlund wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Hey Gunslinger,

Where is your zero on those guns you are saying only drop 3 or 4 inches at 350 and 400 yards?

The only way I can see this as plausible is if you've set them at 250 yard zeros.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Shaky wrote 5 years 1 week ago

To all; I've had personal experience with "fast" barrels.
blueridge hit the nail right on the head when he mentioned that one rifle was lapped. In 1970 I worked part time with a gunsmith who specialized in re-barreling
He re-barreled a 722Rem. .308 to 22/250 for me, and we checked the velocity of my old load of 36gr. 4064 and 55gr. Sie. bullets, 3683fps average of 10 shots. This is a Douglas premium, 1 in 14"24"long. An old friend who hung around the shop said he would hand lap that barrel for me in exchange for a Tim. trigger for his M98 Mouser.
Of course I agreed, because I wasn't completely happy with the accuracy of the new rifle. Two weeks later we chronographed the same load again, 3794fps ave of 10 shots. The barrel heated much less, groups tightened, and
barrel was not fouled after 130 rounds. There is a certain knack to lapping a barrel, and probably, not everyone is able to successfully do it, but if you can, it will definitely improve the performance of any rifle.
I should mention that there was much less variation in shot to shot vel. after lapping, and also I dropped my powder charge to 35gr. and still shoot this rifle at least once a week and the accuracy is still better than is reasonably expected from a new rifle of the same cal.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 5 years 1 week ago

To T.W. Davidson: No, the Gentry Roberts went down the road a long time ago. Wish I had it back; it was a great little rifle.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Gunslinger wrote 5 years 1 week ago

eacherlnd: My Rocky Mtn Huntin rifles are Rem.Classic custon shop rifles, with 24" bbls. Both zeroed in at 200 yds + 1". The Sciroccos ammo is a jewel for my 06 and the Winchester Ballastic ll7 grs. With the Polymer tips and the longer bbls on the rifles, they are outstanding for accuracy and distance.I know what the books say about the drop at 300 and 400 yds. My longest shot todate was 345 yds with the o6 and 325 with the 25-06 . Thee two guns ae the best I have ever owned and I also own a Custom Mauser with solid rib on top of bbl and dble set trigges and 3 bolts to hold action to stock and its 26" bbl.It will not come cose to the 700's, so till I fnd a guy who hasa lots of $$$ it stays in th Vault. It's beautiful gun stock wise and metal wise with some engraving, made in Germany but no name just initials that mean zilt to me. I saw the gun and traded some junkers I had. When I get my price or traders , it will be gone. It also is a 30-06. The dble set trigges fires at 12oz of pull a tadlight for woods hunting or with other hunters.CAn almost fire by looking at it. But love the dble set triggers. If keep, may have bored out to a 338-06. Bore i perfect and lands of great. My gun smith has taken it apart and found nothing wrong to keep fromshooting closer shots. I just leave it be andshow if now and then. Shot-um-straight and often.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ChevJames wrote 5 years 1 week ago

I once had a Dan Wesson .357 magnum revolver. The velocities from its 8-inch-plus barrel were less than you could get from a six-inch revolver from S&W or Ruger in the same caliber. The reason? Gain twist rifling. The DW's rifling rate started out slow and then increased; the idea was that you'd put less stress on the bullet--and the revolver--by doing things that way. Nonetheless, my DW revolver blew up one day 20 years ago while I was shooting Remington factory .357 magnum loads. The cylinder was perfectly intact; the frame had simply let go because it was a bad investment casting. To this day, I avoid investment-cast firearms, although some may be pretty good. I'll take forged steel every time, thank you!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Del in KS wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Hey guys, Let's help make a sick kid happy. Punch my name. When you get to the profile click on "My Donated Hunt" Read the caption, please give it a thumbs up and leave that kid an attaboy. You will be glad you did when you read the caption.

Editors, How about an editors pick!!!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Gunslinger wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Del in KS: Have you got a tad more info on this kid?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jeff Bowers wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Dr. Ralph: Sorry if I needed to explain more clearly. When I started reloading, I asked about different bullets. I mean, when I reloaded .357 (which, ironically,I found, is a .357 in. diameter round), you could get Speer or Hornady rounds in .356, .357, and .358.

So I started a "Why a thousandth of an inch makes a difference" study. Some said it was to increase velocity, some said it was for "fat" or even older barrels.

So I've heard that some barrels can be a tad different between companies. Learning whether I'm wrong or not is why I hang out here.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tim Platt wrote 5 years 1 week ago

eackerlund, John Lazzeroni is an American not Italian and his rifles are manufactured in Tucson, Arizona... I had a Warbird I sold to a friend after only a week of ownership when my wife realized I could not afford it. His cartridges cost about $100 per 20 five years ago.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 1 week ago

Sort of like the .44 Auto Mag I had in 1981 that darn near cost a month's pay for me at the time. When the Chief Financial Officer found out how much it cost, it went down the road, too. But it was fun to shoot for that couple of weeks! Luckily demand for them was higher than supply at the time and I recovered my investment....

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Gunslinger wrote 5 years 3 days ago

All being equal, I do believe the rate of twist, length of bbl's and type Ammo plus your ability to hit your target seperates the good bbls from the not so good. The last 3 guns I bought, all 3 are above average. Aslong as i continue to hunt, these 3rifles will be my gun of choice.They are Remington 700's and a new Marlin XL7. And, I doubt either of them are all 3 would cost l4K bucks.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 11 hours ago

TWD

I note that Hodgdon does not list the H-100-V as one of their 'Extreme Powders' which according to them, are insensitive to all temperature variations.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Gunslinger wrote 4 years 52 weeks ago

To All:When we see and read about new rifles being tested by our expert shooters they all have 24" bbls. The when the rifle becomes available on the market for us its in 22" bbl lenghts. Only way to get a 24 is by special order from the mfg and then some will no do so.I assime that the 24" bbls will give better results for the mfgers or why would they not test the market version of 22"? Anyone got the answer>

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Zermoid wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Jeff4066,

I have a Llama 45, and it never shot very accurately since new, so I got the bright idea to slug the barrel. (after trigger job, oversize link pin, tightened up barrel bushing, polished crown, etc.) Found it was a little more than .001 oversize, no jacketed bullets shot well, but it liked cast bullets, only guess is the lead could expand that .001 to get a good bite on the rifling where the jacketed couldn't?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report

Post a Comment