I find it interesting during WW1 with Hitler besides the genocide, buzz bombs and chemical weapons etc he used he complained to the Geneva Convention that the United States used the Winchester Model 12 with buck shot

I agree with you 100% on the difficulty in teaching a rifleman to shoot a shotgun proficiently. I know several crack rifle shots that can't hit a barn with a shotgun, even when inside of it. I used to be one of those guys and it took me about 5 years to become a half way decent shot with the scatter gun.

In "nam" as a Photographer with a 1911A1 that was many years older than I was, I always stayed gluded to either the gut with a shotgun, or the guy with the M-79 with a buckshot load.

I got "Quick Kill" at Fort Polk, LA in 1969. I remember the aluminum discs to be slightly larger than a silver dollar, and slightly larger than a half. After about thirty or forty shots, most of our group of 18-20 year old trainees had moved on to the smaller discs and were bring the BB guns up from waist high and out from under ponchos, and still scoring hits. The training works well for shotguns and rifles with open sights, but IMHO does not translate over to scoped rifles.

WA Mtnhunter-
14 Jun 69- eight weeks. We watched the moon walk on a B&W TV set up in the Echo Co. compound.

I have always believed the premise regarding being easier to make a good rifle shot from a shotgunner than the reverse. In fact I have unscientifically measured this process several times, just failed to create adequate documentation.
Clay I am not certain about your statement concerning Adolf but I can assure you that Kaiser Wilhelm II, the ruler with the withered hand before and during WW I, did file a protest with the Swiss regarding the utilization of shotguns (M-97s and M-12s mostly) by American troops. Supposedly these weapons cause "undue pain and suffering" on the part of the Germans. It has been said that the guns were very effective in repeling the opposition, eliminating German carrier pigeons, and maybe even stopping hand gernades. Regardless the reply from Geneva was something on the order of the shotguns were more humane than the newly employed German weapon called a flame thrower. Apparently after this decision more shotguns showed up in the trenches of France than ever before.

Bernie-
I don't know the arguments/reasons behind the shotgun removal from Viet Nam, but have run into some know-it-alls who have told me I
didn't have one in 1970. Pictures don't lie, and I happen to have one of me with a military model 1897 circa 1970-71.
crm

ishawooa

Nobody didn't like being on the wrong side of the Model 12; guess you can call it a trench sweeper!

Bernie: An old bud of mine was a Marine in Nam and a few nearby locales in '67-'68. He also carried a M-37 Ithaca a great deal of the time. I might still have a picture of him somewhere but probably left with some stuff I never got from my first wife back in '74.
Clay: In about '60 an old man who lived near us and dealed mostly as a junkyard showed up in town with a wooden case of unissued military Model 12s complete with Ordinance markings of flame and bomb. I wanted one of these short barreled wonders more than anything but my dad would have nothing to do with them. The old guy sold them cheap, probably only for enough so he had a free one left for himself. As years went by the old fellow passed away and I only knew one person who had purchased one of these guns. I went to see him hoping to buy a pristine "trench sweeper" only to find that somewhere along the way he had traded the short barrel and magazine assembly for a replacement 28 incher with modified choke which he had attached to the military receiver. I could have cried.

When I read the history of the submachinegun, I often read that the Germans were so appalled by the use of the shotgun in World War 1 they invented the submachinegun (although a heavy, mounted Italian weapon firing pistol cartridges is credited with being the 1st submachinegun, the first "true" - handy enough for hip or shoulder use - SMG to be deployed was Hugo Schmeisser's MP-18).

To most Europeans, the shotgun is for wingshooting. Not for targets on the ground. Of similar minds are some people in America who think turkeys should be shot with smallbore rifles.

Chuck Taylor is no fan of the shotgun for combat either, and he offers these arguments against it:
-slow to reload
-hard to waterproof the ammo
-too much recoil
-generally bulkier than SMG or carbine

I didn't think about it much at the time, but during my shotgun training we were taught the "under the armpit" method. It was more of the point rather than aim.

I reckon those instructors knew what they were talking about, then.

As one who used both the model 12's and later the 37's, I agree that they were unweildly and slow to load and would mis-fire and that the primers turned bright green, the wax paper got soggy - but then, the stitching rotted out of your leather "jump" boots in a week and I remember wiring my canteen to my thigh cuz the issue utility belt back then melted into a useless rag at about the same time.
We also tried out a 10 ga. pump; I believe it was a Harrington & Richardson. It was called "the grasscutter" because when staking-out a field of fire for the automatic weapons then, we'd knock down the elephant grass w/4 or 5 tubes.
Carrying-about and developing our ordinance in those days makes one realize the genius and utility of the .25 cal. machine gun the Japanese utilized in those same jungles.

unweildly corrected to unwieldy ( why I chose the military after high-school )

The Army has instituted a similar training program with the M-16A2 and M-4. I ran into it pre-Iraq in 2007. Just calling it CQB. Close Quarters Battle.

I learned how to shoot by using a 22 rifle but my target was just visable for only a second at most. Therefore no time to sight. Just hand and eye co-ordination. I wore out that 22 rifle in two summers. Then I started using pistols. I wore 2 of them out. Now at 63 I need to get back to that type of shooting. Occasionally it happens for me while hunting deer in thick brush but I have lost most of what I learned in my youth.

nerffodder, be a ranger, train in all types weapons, foreign and domestic. single shot and muti-projectile.....

I've never been in the military so this may be a dumb question, but I'll ask anyway, Would it be practical or would there be an advantage to have a weapon that had both a shotgun and rifle combined? The Shotgun with OO Buck (Pump or Semi?) would be devastating for CQB and a rifle (Semi/Single/Auto) would be better for longer ranges.
I suppose the "rules" about two barrels, twice the chance of something broken too heavy two different ammo and how to switch from shotgun/rifle mode in the heat of battle making something simple too complex for soldiers etc etc

to 82BUCKEYETOM
I think there are some experimental or proposed lightweight shotguns to be added on to the M4/M16, similar to M203.

xxxxx

I've seen old footage of WW2 Marines training with the 1903 Springfield (remember, in WW2 all Pacific Forces regardless of branch of service began WW2 with Springfields, + all Marines regardless of location began WW2 with Springfields) for close quarters combat where the rifleman would fire the rifle from the hip. To ensure fast and fairly accurate target acquisition, he had his left arm straight out, elbow locked, hand holding the forend as far forward as he could reach. He would be basically pointing the rifle with his rigid left arm/hand as the attackers poured in, swinging his arm and hips as needed to change direction of fire. The right hand manipulated the bolt as fast as he could. I don't remember if the bayonet was fixed, but as these distances, I suppose it was.

When you realize how fierce the Japanese were, and how the Marines/Pacific Army troops were fighting with hand "cranked" weapons, just makes you admire their bravery so much more.

It was in the Pacific Islands that the .45 autopistol really shined, as it was the only common "fast shooter" the Marines had in the early years (some had WW1-era Smith or Colt .45ACP revolvers w/ 6 shots). Of course they had BARs and SMGs, but those are specialist weapons, and they had no Garands. No wonder Col. Cooper was so in love with the 1911.

I watched in History Channel about one Marine in Guadalcanal, who, running out of rifle ammo, cleared a few Japanese machinegun nests with 1911 .45 in one hand, and a machete in another. He pounced on them, one machinegun nest to the next, and killed them all, shooting and hacking. His colleagues remember him because after a long day of killing Japs and saving American lives, the first thing he said to them was "could I have some of that sandwich, I haven't eaten since yesterday" or something. Just a superhuman effort. You can't make this guy up in a comic book.

I think he won the Medal of Honor, but his service to his country not over, he was killed later in Iwo. Sadly I can't even remember his name (sorry). I wish they'd show that again.

crm3006

1963 Read about " White Cloud " in your military history books.

Sorry for the delay - sometimes I get the post/sometimes I don't.

DOL

crm3006, it was mixed. when things change in the Army, it may take years before reaching you unit. I remember in 1967 after returning home from the Air Force and starting to hunt again when we went to buy shells I would alway try to get the Peters (blue plastic) shell over the Win paper but the paper was still very much in demand. I just liked the Peter shells I still have a Stevens 12.ga. single shot that my wife bought me in '67 to tinker with. I always like .22 for squirl, but many days carried the steven just to watch the delight in her eyes....The Stevens still looks like it just came out of the box. sold new for $37.00.., I guess this post shold have been on Dave's post about the small things to remember that happened afield... Sorry guy, didn't mean to get off track....

with all due respect to clay cooper, the winchester 97, not the model 12, was used in trench warfare in wwI with devastating effects. at the beginning of wwII, hitler announced that he would torture any allied soldier caught carrying a shotgun. there is no authenticated record of any soldier ever being tortured under this directive.

i can understand using them for training but why use them in combat? i think they would be good for clearing buildings and trenches but what does the soldier with the shotgun do when the shots are long range?

We did some similiar shooting in FORT JACKSON in 05. I dont rememenber what it was called but i think they called it Reflexive Firing with M16 or M4s. You stand about 25meters from the target and without looking at the sights you would do controlled pair shots or double tap which they dont use that term in the amry anymore at the target. I like that method and its similiar to shotgunning.