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Petzal: The "Infallible" Shoulder Shot

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October 09, 2009

Petzal: The "Infallible" Shoulder Shot

By David E. Petzal

A few weeks ago a friend of mine went out West with a .338 and collected both a nice elk and a mule deer, and while the elk succumbed without a struggle, the muley made a point with his passing. The critter was shot in the shoulder, downhill, at 265 yards with a 225-grain Barnes TSX bullet at 2,750 fps. I know all this because I loaded the ammo myself.

Rather than dropping like a stone because his shoulder was smashed and his innards were pureed, as indeed they were, the mule deer did his level best to get away and required three more shots to convince him that it was time to call it quits.

None of this is detracts from the .338, or the Barnes TSX, or the shoulder shot. Almost always, when a critter is struck there and the bullet does its job, the beast goes down right away or within a few steps. The shoulder shot is the way to go if you have a bullet that will break bone reliably and if you are shooting something big that may object to the proceedings.

The lesson you can take from this incident is that shot placement is an inexact science; it’s a matter of going with the percentages. There are no guarantees handed out. Whenever you shoot, always be ready with an immediate second shot. Or a third. Sometimes, no matter how hard you hit them, they just don’t cooperate.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

I haven't shot a deer with a rifle in a few years because i've been tagging out with my bow, but i always favor the shoulder shot when presented. I'm hunting public land mostly or small non-exclusive private pieces, in heavily hunted N.central PA. If a shot deer runs off it is likely to be shot by someone else. A bullet that breaks the shoulder and takes out the lungs is 100% fatal, but like you pointed out Dave, sometimes the deer wish to contest this a little longer or farther than i'm comfortable with. Still i believe with an adequate caliber and bullet, it's a very high percentage shot.

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from Walt Smith wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

The lesson that should have been learned here is that some animals have a greater "will to live" than other animals. Just as some humans have a greater "will to live" than other humans. This is also why I prefer the neck shot which will anchor any game as long as its placed correctly.

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from hunt3r wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

yeah, i hear peple knock a particular bullet and/or caliber because a deer or animal that ran off like those mentioned. Obviously a 338 win is plenty of gun for any deer, but sometimes things just dont' work out as planned. its not the bullet or rifle's fault, mother nature can be unpredicatable.
I've also come to love the barnes tsx bullet!

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from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

I'm glad deer don't have big claws and fangs (yes, I know some species do have fangs) along with the attitude of a boar hog with a hangover! If so they would kill more people than lions and cape buffalo put together. Deer can be just plain hard to kill.

This also brings home the fact that perfect doesn't really exist, it is only a figment of the imagination or at best a momentary glimmer. However, we must still try to attain it as the ultimate goal.

I will also continue to play the odds and shoot for that magic spot on the point of the shoulder, it might not be perfect but it will do!

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from Joseph Bishop wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

I know what is a pretty good guarantee a solid broadside shot with a 3/4 ton truck at 75mph. Few deer get up or try to run for that matter after you send them flying 30ft and sliding another 10-15ft. Not my preferred means of taking game, but my grandma got me a deer easier than any I have shot, and cheaper too; at least for me. Car/Truck deer collisions are messy on both ends.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Mule Deer and Jack Rabbits I place in the same category. What I mean is they can take one hell of a punishment. I’ve blown Jack Rabbits in half and as long as they have front leg drive there still trucking.

David makes an excellent point, however there is much more to this than anyone thinks. By blowing the shoulder out basically speaking takes out there front leg drive like the Jack Rabbit is what you want for Big Game to anchor them on the spot. Still whatever we may think, cutting off the blood flow to the brain by blowing out the lungs or heart preferably both is what really turns the lights off and that’s is why I’m so successful with my 22-250.

It takes bullet mass to blow the shoulder out, but to really take out the heart and longs to deprive oxygen to the brain etc the key is “Hydrostatic Shock” is what I found to be the #1 player for Mule Deer and White Tail.

Further discussion:

Normally when shot in the shoulder, you also blow out the arteries from the heart to the brain and chances are your leaving the heart and lungs intact to a degree. If your shot is too high, you miss the arteries and if and chances are the lungs and heart intact even though the front leg drive is out the game isn’t over yet!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

One more point of discussion, some do prefer the neck shot. I just wish I had a nickel for every wounded deer I had to track because of this. Allot of the shots misses the vital and only blows out the wind pipe, NOT GOOD!

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from yohan wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Ok Gents like Lucy and Dessie
"Splian me this" ,..
Haveing shot a truck load of whitetails and a few mulies ,..two mooses and a red stag
most with a souped up 8x57 sending 150 gr Hornady's chroned at just a tad under 2900fps.
But also a numbr(whitetails) with 45-70,.. 30-30 and a 12gage slug .
The shot that knockes em down and keeps em down
but does not break the shoulder and ruins almost no meat is high behind the shoulder yet under the spine ,.. they kick and flail for short time ,. but have NEVER had one (anything) get up when hit in that spot .

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

A +1 for you Sir yohan!

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

One of the fellows who helps tend our farm loves his neck shot. I will not take that one unless the animal is ten feet away. In other words, I will not take that one. He had a long run of bang/flops until he went a little low on a very nice buck. After that episode of never recovering the animal, I think he saw the light on that shot. It appears to be a high percentage shot until it fails.

And I've said it before. Animals can't read scripts. Some don't know when to fall dead. Even with a textbook-solid shot. That wild instinct to live is sometimes powerful indeed.

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from lovetohunt wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

A few weeks ago I shot a spike just like yohan said. Behind the shoulder and just a tad high. The deer went down and stayed down right where I had pulled the trigger on him. Shot was taken with my TC Triumph 50 cal. muzzle loader. 100 grains of power and a 245 grain powerbelt. 30-ish yards.

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from ishawooa wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Keep shooting and you will miss sooner or later and/or you will have to follow a wounded animal like DB described in spite of your best efforts. I also wholeheartedly agree with Clay concerning the neck shot. What is really revolting in a neck shot gone wrong is when it removes the lower jaw. I always aim for the shoulder or thereabouts depending upon the bullet I am using.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

ishawooa-
Couldn't agree more about the neck shot, it does not work every time, and can go wrong just as easy as it can go right. Same for head shots, except for a close range finisher. Shoulder shot is the most forgiving
and allows for some miss factor.
I had an experience on my last hunt where I shot a doe dead in the point of the shoulder, and she kicked both heels in the air and promptly left like her tail was on fire. I found blood and a piece of lung, and eventually found the deer about 35 or 40 yards away, thoroughly dead. When cleaned, she had a hole in her shoulder, no lungs, and a half dollar sized hole on the other side between the fourth and fifth rib. Hit her with a 115 gr. NBT. So the shoulder shot is not infallible, but it allows some slack.
Two other deer hit with the same shot, were "bang-flop".

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from focusfront wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Great subject, Dave. A breath of honest air. A .338 for deer might be overpowered, but there's one huge benefit; blood trail. I don't hunt with sub-calibers but I have hunted with guys who do, and I can tell you first-hand that tracking even a well-hit deer with a .223 caliber entrance wound and no exit wound is an exercise in futility. Usually your only blood trail is from the deer's nose, and that doesn't start until the deer runs a bit. If you accept the fact that you are going to be doing some tracking, you will appreciate an exit wound. Save your mouse guns for mice and shoot your deer with .35 Rem at woods ranges. My .35 Rem. Marlin 336 is a nice enough rifle that everyone reading this wants one anyway.

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from dog60 wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Anybody have any experience with shoulder shots using a .50 muzzleloader with 295 gr. hollow points? I have a friend who swears that the shoulder shot is the bang flop--but he's not a muzzleloader hunter.

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Dr. Petzal; What sort of powder and charge did you use? I was just wondering,as I have a box of 225 grain TSX bullets I'm going to load up when I get home from Iraq in a few weeks.
338 Winchester is obviously not enough gun for deer :), what should a man go to from that, 375 Ruger, 404 Jeffrey? I love the 338 for everything and usually they fall over, right away when I don't miss.
I had a mule deer go a few hundred yards last fall after I shot it with that 338/225 grain Barnes X bullet, an old PMC load I managed to hoard a few boxes of after they quit making ammo in the US.
The deer was hit through the lungs and was dead, but was not convinced for a good ways. A 230 grain 45ACP slug finally ended his run.
Animals never read the script. Good one SGARedneck.
Keep shooting until they don't move!
AKX

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

The problem of using a 338 diameter Barnes bullet on deer is its design is too heavy, in other words, deer doesn’t have sufficient mass for Barnes to work right.

That is why I use Hornady!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

338 Win Mag

Hornady 225 grain Soft Point

IMR4350 71 Grains

3000FPS!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Max load for my Savage Muzzle loader

45 cal 250 grain

IMR4198 75 grains

2800fps!

Not your dads MZ!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

sgaredneck

I just love all the neck shot gurus. They prance and puff-up and spout their prowess until one day they flub the shot and end up in a tracking exercise that seldom ends well.

Most of 'em are as full of stuffing as the Christmas goose..... Rookies, I say. Or as a parallel to Clay.....Range Monkeys!

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Our guy changed his tune on that neck shot. He lost a nice deer and the bad shot + failure to track (which he is very good at) shook him a bit. I believe the deer lived quite a while until it expired from not being able to take in food & water, along with being in abject misery from infection. A sad way to go for anything.

Now as far as rookie, he does have enough antlers nailed up on the barn to go all the way down one side (about 65'). All that doesn't excuse a poorly executed (unethical IMO) shot though.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

I agree with Dave's last comments on this issue, and contradict myself in the same breath...I have not had animals go further then 30 yards when shot in the shoulder/chest area. The bigger the bullet, the faster they drop has been my experience, BUT nothing in hunting, or shooting, an animal comes with a guarantee. That first shot must be placed with confidence, and every ethical hunter should be prepared for the follow-up shot(s)if needed.
ps-I am not in favor of neck shots, either.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

i have argued with, and probably been dubbed a snotnose when i told some older guys their neck shots (and/or .22 centerfires) were not advisable. it's ok by me, when you're right, you're right.

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from Walt Smith wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

I've had to track way more deer that were shot in the shoulder than I ever have with neck shot deer. I'm not saying its for everyone, and its probably a good thing most hunters don't try it. The ONLY time I use it is when the deer is within 50 yards and it is unpressured. Here in the swamps of Michigan where I hunt that is quite often.

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Clay, the Barnes X bullet is not built any different regardless of the diameter/weight as far as I can tell, same materiel, same design. 25 caliber up to 458 same bullet, different scale.
How do you know that it doesn't work like it should on lighter game? I've never gotten one back, those pass right through anything short of cord-wood that I have hit. I have no idea what they look like as they always exit, even one deer I hit in the spine with a 7mm 160gr X-bullet dropped on the spot but we looked all over for the bullet in the hillside and never found where it hit.
I shot some cord-wood once from about 4 feet away to see if I could get the bullets back, they went almost to the end (24 & 28 inches of penetration) in solid, dry birch. Those bullets looked beautiful, four spread petals, very even, just like the magazine ads. Not one point was broken off, and the weight was within 5 grains of 225 on both bullets. Deer are not made of birch, but I can't imagine that the bullets don't expand in a similar manner in flesh, I just don't buy it.
What say you; Clay?
AKX

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from albertahunter wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Interesting stories non the least and new hunters should take note and learn from us who have experienced all kinds of unexplainable events taking game with firearms. I have seen several animals drop in their tracks from 6mm varmint loads and others run as unharmed after a 300WM passed from rearend out front shoulder. Best advice I can give is dont take iffy shots unless no other choice on last day and follow up every shot by cheking the area animal headed. After every season I find too many wasted animals hunters "missed".

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from shane wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

It really does just happen. Mysteriously. Deer are very very tough when they want to be. I'll cite my 3 full bore 12 gauge rifled slugs into the buck that wasn't having any part of it story. I even threw in a neck shot - heart/lung shots one and two weren't convincing, so I tried a different approach out of desperation. Looking back I would have put #3 right where the first two went. Luckily this is the only deer, gun or bow, that didn't croak with just one.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

In my opinion, use a bullet to match the game at hand. The Barnes bullet is fine for elk, tough body and muscle, etc., but, the mule deer should have been shot with a soft point. I'm tired of people thinking these premium bullets 'can do it all'. Yea they can kill, but as in this case as most, they don't drop them where they were shot.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Jim in MO

I have not killed a pile of deer with them, but the deer I have shot with a Barnes 165 grain Triple Shock dropped right in their tracks. Same results with Trophy Bonded Bear Claws of the same weight in .30-06 and .308 Win. I think the only other bullet I have used in over 20 years of deer hunting is Remington Core Lokt's, which seemed to kill deer pretty dead.

I agree with you. You don't have to shot deer wit hpremium bullets. Not that hard to kill with good shot placement.

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from JHawes wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

I had a similar experience when I started hunting a while back. I hit the buck right behind the shoulder with my 12ga and he stumbled a bit and then ran another 100yds into the woods before he dropped. While me and my dad were dressing the deer the heart and lungs were nearly nonexistent from the damage that had been done. After seeing that I was completely astonished that the deer didn't drop in his track let alone run 100 yards.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Walt Smith-
Swamps in Michigan are a lot different than senderos in Texas. A 50 yrd. shot on a Texas deer lease or public hunting area is as rare as a 27" unicorn. Do what works for you, but a whitetail deer of any size won't go far with a well placed shoulder shot. Most of our shots are between 110 and 250 yards. Know what you, and your rifle, can do.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

2-Alaskanexile
Drove into hunting camp about and hour ago ,.. its late and Im jacked up from the drive so cant sleep ( yet )
and of course one genius brought lap top,so blame him
Much as I intended to go cold turkey ( no phones no computer ) figured can't sleep peek in here.
Usually about 4 oz scotch or 12 oz milk will send the sand man ,. about half way through the scotch now YUK YUK,,. and its workin
Damn I love hunting camp,. almost as much as I love to hunt. Plus this year I didnt have to kill myself getting here and getting set ,.. firewood all cut tarps strung,. tents up ,. just drive in ,..and say hello Stow my gear set up my army cot and check to see whats simmering in the pot.Goo dthing about this bunch is that no one dosnt know at least somehing about cooking ,.. and that is flipping great. KP is on rotation thos ewho cook do not clean and thos who clean dont cook on that day
and if we get one that tthings he's too good to cook ,. or clean he;s dwon the road.

Anyway
Mr Clay Cooper is right.
225 barnes ( if the ones im thinkin about ) are consructed such that a certain amount of resistance is required for optimum performance and it more than a deer will normally provide

You can kill deer with full patch bullets quite well and constently but you don't find many (bullets) cause they sail right on through
This ( in the upper upper Midwest ) was not an uncommon practice back in 60's.
WWII vets would use military surplus ammo but keep a box (sporting rounds/ soft points) handy for the warden ,.. Military ammo one 'H " of lot cheeper and if you needed to take a texas heart shot ,.. you could do that and not wreck a lot of meat.(keeping in mind these guys were meat hunters) some of the best hunters and sprtsmen I have ever encountered but meat hunters non the less. which by the byh is my main goal ,. coul dgive rats behind about trophys ,. the meat is my trophy.

Can say I never did it ,. but I have seen the result of 150gr 30-06 military surplus going end to end on a big whitetail .Quick kill with minimum meat loss.
Or if a (side) chest shot,.. think of it like an arrow but with a certain "foot-pound" advatage ,.. there is a hole where there aint suposed to be a hole ,. if its through the lungs liver or heart ,. its only a matter of time,.. but , many times not the "bang flop" which
is why your deer took off after being hit with a big bad bullet that didnt open .

Thus the intended function for big heavily constructed y bullets is for greater penitration on big heavy game,..
Shoot something realitively small like a deer,.
(less resitsance )they will kill for sure but wont open (expand) as intended.
225 gr (anything ) going 2900fps +/- will kill
any critter but ( if memeroy serves )
As Mr Petzal has stated " 225 barnes will
shoot though a redwood and kill a susquatch on the far side".
That is not deer medicine and works little better than full patch ( jacketed) military surplus ammo aside from bullet diameter.which in principal would allow a slightly better blood trsil.

Waaay the heck back ( early 70's) my Dad who was in ordinace in the service (wwII) After which he worked for a time as a gun smith,. and later in ballistics for Olin corp,. over time develped not a theory but a thinking .
That too much speed would be counter productve if you need penitration.
His thinking was medium to low velocity v/s hyper velocity is better ,..
Intuitively I agree with that
IE: Doing a belly flop from the high board hurts one hell of lot more than falling face forward into the water from pool side That said Im not half bad with numbers but the abilty to prove that mathmatically is beyond me,
Do howevr think it could be done,. the big varioable of course being BULLET (projectile) CONSTRUCTION " .

So,.. to think of it in the extream.
If you shoot a big stiff bullet at a F & S magazine the resistance will be the same as magazine shot with a (lighter) bullet.
Thus the principal of energy transfer occurs.

If nothing else is considered.
The wieght difference (ratio) between the lighter and heavier bullet allows,.. that the lighter bullet will react more to that same resistance in a more vilolent way . IE: expand more quickly than a bigger heaver pill expending more enegry into the target,. while the bigger heavier bullet expends "terminal energy" in a tree or rock out yonder.

Jim from Mo had quick kills with 165 gr ,. which is a whole different animal from 225 gr.
As we all know you you dont need to pound 4 penny nails with a four pond hammer.In practice it is actuallly a bad idea
same as you dont ned an elephant gun to hunt wabbits.
Wabbits that Mr cooper shoots withstanding of course YUK YUK

Or as stated by a number here in ,.. mactch the round to the game.

Never shot a bear ( actually kinda like em ) or at least like to watch em.
So cant speak from experiance
But I have had ocasion to stick a round ( or two ) into other beasties that do not take kindly to that form or recreation ,..
Which means,.. that if you dont provide them the winged journey into the beyong forth with ,. you are very likley to become the very next and only project for that day.
I then want a bullet that will shoot through one grade school one middle school ,a red wodd AND kill as suquatch on the far side
But i would not use that bullet o a whitetail unless of cours I was attacked yuk yuk

Hope that helps,..

Later guys

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Yohan;
Thanks for the physics lesson, but you aren't getting it. My buck that ran a few hundred yards had it's lungs totally destroyed by the big bad Barnes-X bullet, it then exited, leaving a nice blood trail. When I got to where he sat (he could not get up)he was bleeding out so I shot him in the neck with my Glock 45.
I have instantly killed two other deer with Barnes X bullets one with a 7mm/160 and another with the 338/225 and both were of the bang/flop variety. One was not much over 100 pounds and it looked like a bomb went off inside it.
Johan, your resistance theory needs some work. Maybe you should go back to physics class?
These bullets always do a lot of damage and then exit.
I brought that story up because it was similar to Dr. Petzal's example, of a deer fatally hit but still running. Barnes uses the same alloy, solid copper to make their bullets whether they are 80 grain 250 Savage bullets or 400 grain 458 Lott bullets, it's the same copper, and will act the same in gelatin or flesh or firewood at the same velocity as a larger bullet regardless of bullet weight/caliber. Longer for caliber bullets will expand larger at the same velocity because those have longer cuts in the nose.
If they weren't any good why are all the other bullet companies copying their idea? It can't only be lead bans in California, that's not a big enough market.
The areas where I hunt for deer and elk, (Montana) allow either species to be taken on the same hunt, even the same day. I might have elk loads in my rifle but I'm not going to change ammo to shoot a mule deer or white-tail. I'm not going to re-zero between my elk hunt in Wyoming and my deer hunt in Montana either, I'm going to shoot the same load for both.
There are Grizzly bears in both places too, and I'm happy to carry extra horsepower when ol' fuzzy is around.
I'll have to shoot a deer at Thanksgiving with my 338 from stem to stern to see if I can get the bullet back, and show you guys that the big X bullets are expanding, even in puny deer.
AKX

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from davidpetzal wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

To Clay Cooper: You are dead wrong about that body mass stuff. I've shot animals weighing anywhere from 70 pounds to 500 pounds with 225-grain X-bullets and they all performed the same.

To Alaska Exile: I can't list specific charges, but I can tell you that the .338 works best with either RelodeR 19 or IMR 4831, and either CCI 250 or Federal 215 primers.

To everyone: Sorry I haven't been able to jump in more in the past week or so, but I've been traveling in places where there is no Internet and probably no god. Almost done, however.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Well, I favor the "Just behind the shoulder ,a little high shot, Never had to run on down or shoot twice" but last year while loading for my .308 Rem.700, I had a bag of 150 gr. win. flat point and I loaded a box. Why, I don't know. When time to go hunt I put 3 in my Rem. and shot a deer behind the shoulder but This time I shot a little too high. Made a terrible wound but didn't kill the deer as quick as I wanted. The deer never moved from the spot, but I wasn't pleased with the shot.I prefer the Sierra 150gr. Sp at a little lower velosity here in the hill country where the shots are at about 75-125 yds.

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Dr. Petzal;
Thanks, the powder you used was what I was curious about, I know you can't post the charges.
I have a can of Reloader 19 on the shelf at home and I'll start with that. Primers? I only have about 400 left and I've had 10K on order from Cabela's since April. I hope I can find a few more when I get home. I think I have 200 of each. I truly dislike gun grabbers!
Thanks for the back-up on the body-mass theory. I would rather fight than switch, from my x-bullets!
AKX

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

AlaskanExile,
It's not the gun grabbers - the grabbing has mostly passed around here. I've seen plenty of guns on the racks around here every time I go in a shop. Even the dirty filthy mark of the beast AR's lately...I love my AR's.

I think it's the mass confusion over supposed ammo legislation. How many times has everyone here had the "HR 45" one land in your inbox? What I can't figure out is the fact that one shop I frequent has a relatively OK supply of primers and powder, then you go to the next shop and get a completely different story from the guy behind the counter. Conspiracy???? Aliens???? Haints????

Only the Shadow knows.......

Dave:
No god and no internet? Are you back in Schefferville again with Boddington???

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

davidpetzal-
Since your name came up in our hunting camp, in reference to some of your bullet choices, we all decided you would be welcome in Texas anytime you choose to show up. We have a lot of God out here, as well as rifles, but are somewhat short on civilization as defined by damyankees and the Internet is as welcome in deer camp as fire ants or seed ticks.BTW, most agreed with your bullet selections. When are you coming out?

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from KJ wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

The farthest I've ever had a whitetail run after being shot was 200 yards, through a soybean field. She was hit right behind the shoulder (about 1" back) with a Remington 12 gauge copper solid sabot. The slug took out the top of both lungs and left a channel the size of my thumb on her heart. The exit wound was huge, and the blood trail looked like it had been poured out with a bucket. She even flagged when she ran, causing me to think I had missed her. 200 yards away she stopped and fell over dead. I prefer the shoulder shot, because I've never had a deer run after a hit directly on the shoulder, but that's not to say it couldn't happen. Every animal is different.

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from Bernie wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

My favorite bullet/load for the .338 is a 225-grain Hornady Spire-Point ahead of 72 grs. of H-4831. I shot a number of mule deer and elk with that load, also three big barren ground caribou bulls at ranges from 35 yards to 368 paces. Perfect performance every time. One five-point bull elk I shot with this load also was at about 35 yards.

I agree that many times these premium bullets are unnecessary for lots of big game hunting, and actually do not kill as quickly as standard Hornadys, Speers, Sierras and Remington Core-Lokts.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

2 AlaskanExile

Decided to fish today instead of hunt ,. hunt tomorrow ,.
will be rested then.

Didn't mean to come off upity ,.having some,. but not a lot of esperiance with .338
Only thing I can think ,.. must have got the wrong bullet plugged into my brain. Will also admit I do not handload for that caliber and actually no longer own one.

Have however for a long time understood pretty well sectional density and ballistic coefficant IE: long for caliber etc etc ) ,. if you do to then no need for futher discusion in that regard.

Guess i miss read ,..got the wrong impression as to what you meant about bullet and performace ,. then again i did have about 5-6 Oz of scotch yuk yuk

I have however swated a lot of deer in my time ( well over 100) with most well shot ,. yet as most know most of us are not perfect ( except possibly that sawed little gienius from texas the one and only
30- 041/2 " P P miester)

Nothing to be proud of but will admit a few needed more killing than others ,which is a kind way to put it.

But still I never (ever) experianced what you described ,.. so given the template of personal experiance guess I just t took a wrong turn

As to the physics lesson again sorry didn't mean to come off that way ,.. still,.. not many are gonna teach me much unless they have engineering background too.

So,.. have a good day ,. ddn't mean to rile ya ,..
Caught a very nice Northern this morning and had Musky follow but couldnt get him or her to take,. also
some "eyes" and 45 perch ( Three of us fishing)
Fresh fish,. & fried taters with onions tonight !
One of the guys brought the last of his home grown tomatoes ,.. and that guy know what he's about when he decides to make a salad .

Happy days !!

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Well, here’s old yoyo yuk yuk, back out from under his bridge again. Guess you just can't stand it when your mental superiors post something, so here we go with the confused bloviating of a troll who has been every where, done every thing, and is welcome nowhere. Yoyo, you really should lay off the Hoppe's #9 and airplane glue, you get your misspelled fiction so confused, it does not make sense even to you.
P.S. - From scanning some of your nitwit posts, I personally do not believe you know a .338 Win Mag. from a flat rock. JMHO. Have a nice day!

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from yohan wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

YUK YUK !!

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from yohan wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Gotcha again somemore little man :)

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Good Hunting Yohan!

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Dave Petzal,
I'm sorry but your response to Coop didn't make sense. How can a bullet open up without any resistance? Premium bullets are designed for premium game i.e. Large.
To bad Win, Rem, nor Hornady has gotten the message their bullets don't work no more.

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from Gunslinger wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Last year i shot a nice w-tail at 270 yds with a 06 using l80 gr Scirocos. Bullet entered his right shoulder, broke it,then got his inners and thru the left front leg and borke it as well. The deerws standing beside a 4 ft tsll fence, he jumped that fence and ran 60-70 yds thru the woods before he fell. The first animal I have had not to drop on the spot in many years. I cannot figure how the deer jumped the fence with 2 brojke legs and no lungs and run 60-70 yds . Apparently they run on stored energy in the brain, that they not gonna die.The same seson I kiled 2 other deer with the same gun/bullet and they fell at the spot. he lst 2 were frontal shots, which many hate. I like the frontal shot if in my range, as that bullet is gonna go thru his Vitals and maybe exit at the rear. I also killed a 9 pointer on a frontal shot with the B/P gun at l70 yds using Powerbelt 245 gr bullets, he dropped in his tracks. Shot placement is vital to a clean kill, but sometimes, the animal will just run on stored energy a short distance.Many experts have written, that the w-tail is one of the craftest animals to bring down and has more staying energy than any other big game. I prefer a side shot behind teh shoulder about l/2 way up if deer is walking, but standing still, I yet prefer the frontal shot in most cases. Shoot-um-straight and very often, as pratice does help. Once my hunting guns ae zero as i want, I go to the MArlin bolt 22 mag for pratice at different angles. Good hunting guys, hopefully the weather agrees with our hunts.

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

SGARedneck; It's our reasonable/unreasonable fear of the gun grabbers that has caused this current panic over some guns, ammo, and some components. They haven't grabbed any guns in a while but everyone assumes that they will try something.
Jim in MO; I would agree with you if we were talking about Partition bullets,but we're not. Those are made tougher as the calibers increase. They have to, they're made of lead, which is soft.
Barnes bullets are made from solid copper, same alloy regardless of bullet weight. Any animal, even a small one (70 pounds in DEP's case) is enough resistance to cause an X-bullet to expand. If it expands but is moving too fast, the petals will shear off, but that didn't happen to the bullets I fired into the birch wood, at point-blank range with my 338. No one said any bullets didn't work any more.
Dave was just pointing out that even if you use an excellent bullet, in a sufficient caliber, and make a perfectly placed shot, a game animal may still travel a long ways before expiring.
That was the point,in case you didn't get it the first time, review until you get it. Nobody said any bullet was better than any other or wouldn't work anymore.

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from shane wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

I think what Clay said is true for most bullets but the TSX isn't most bullets, it's designed completely differently than the rest with a few exceptions. It includes two features that are completely incompatible in conventional bullet voodoo and are at two different extremes - solid construction and a hollow point.

You use hollow points on varmints and bad guys - they expand rapidly and violently but don't penetrate worth a damn. You use solids when you want minimal if not zero expansion for penetration through thick tough scary beasts that don't live 'round these parts.

The TSX is both. Its hollow point ensures that it expands rapidly and fully on even light, thin skinned game, and its solid construction ensures that it (almost always) stays in one piece without blowing up to blast all the way through.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Y'all keep on using all the "other" bullets. That way, the debate rages on. I've used the TSX and TBBC and seen results. I've also seen the separated jackets and core fragments from the "others". Keep shooting and trailing, I'll just keep on doing what I've been doing. Sooner or later you might figure it out..... LOL

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter

Sure got the fire burning on this one, LOL!

Like I said before, I've witnesed Moose taken with beter bang flops with 30-06 with over the counter 180 grain Remington Core-Lokt® than 300 Mgs with fancy high priced bullets. Yes bullet performance is great but It's all about "MOP"!

One more time,

ken.mcloud said it best!
“So, I think that the superior killing power of larger rounds is largely in our heads.(likely testosterone induced) A flat-shooting round that you can accurately place will produce as many if not more "bang-flop" kills as a heavy caliber round.”

Shot my Savage MZ with 45 cal 250 grain saboted yesterday cracking the 2700fps barrier!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Isn’t this one of David’s Girl friends?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3A7J898wgs&NR=1

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

One of David’s pet loads !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWH3V6NUx7c&NR=1

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Yes Davis I too can say I’ve shot game from the 6 pound Jack Rabbits to Moose with my Hornady’s and they work fantastic!

As the old saying goes,

“If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it!”

One of the questions asked in my Hunter and Shooting Classes and on the Shooting Range is, what is the best cartridge and bullet choice. Doesn’t matter what you’re shooting, if you can’t hit “MOP” you might as well be shooting spit wads!

David I know you like your Rhino killing loads for deer & ELk, regardless what anyone says I’ll still be putting “Back Strap Steaks” on the breakfast table with my Hornady’s!

MMMM MMMMM MMMMMM GOOD!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Blowing the shoulder to smithereens sure makes a lot of hamburger out of the shoulder steaks not to count a big mess! A simple just behind the shoulder heart and lung shot will do and this gives you more room for windage error. But if you must anchor them on the spot I do take the shoulder shot. 4 years ago I shot a huge doe with my 25-06 with Nosler 120 grain Partitions loaded at 3000fps and it totally destroyed both sides of the shoulder and still ran 60 yards no farther than the rest. I was able to carefully avoiding sharp bones stick hand almost clear thru and yes I lost a lot of meat I did!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

By the way, that picture of Alex with his Buck was a lung shot bang flop at 250 yards and moments later shot his doe with a lung shot bang flop at 150 yards.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

One more thing

David I totally agree with you, we just have a different way of looking at it!

David Petzal (Elmer Keith) vs Clay Cooper (Jack O'Connor)

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from yohan wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Right On Clay !!

Unless its gonna bite back,.. or try to grind you into a course pesto sauce,..30 cal or there about,.. 150-200 grains out the pipe at 2500 to 3000 fps will cause one " H " of a lot of Bang flops.
Eception to this is 6.5 swede,..160 gr
long an fairly slow ,. but its like a little lighting bolt. Guys that I know in Norway ( well only two really )for a long time have and still do shoot moose with that.
But not from th enext zip code . Which in thier opinion is why ist calld hunting and not shooting.
Im on board with Rem core locs too.

As my ole man ( the balsitician & gunsmith)
used to say ,.
"Unless you have a habit of shooting from the next zip code "( which to him was anything much past 250 yds) "or your tryin ot shoot their tails off and scare em to death" yuk yuk.
"All you need is a 30-06 (or something close) that you can get most of the time,. to shoot where you point it "

He had more colorfull language relative to those who suppose,. they "need something on wheels with lanyard and muzzle break " to hunt any deer including moose elk and Carabou (what he called raindeer yuk yuk) But lets not get the magnum blasters all cranked on a Sundasy morning.
That said the idea of a big gun in bear country is not lost one me.

As slight testiment ( nothing to do with this being Sunday ) I watched ( stood right beside him in 73 or 74 )while the old boy dusted a nice w-tial at 300 + with a 30 -30. topped with a 2.5 power weaver.
After he made the shot he did say ,."This is really not he gun to do that with ,. but it was down hill enough,. that I didnt have to hold out of the "hair".
Anyone having done some shooting knows what thats about

That said ,.. for a long time for anything bigger than a white tail.
I would forth with, full of confidence , sally forth,. with my Mauser 8x57 stuffed with 170 gr Hornadys,..
Chrono-ed at a little over 2700 fps,. that did the job and then some.
II am abeliever in using enough bullet to smash bone if you need to.

However one medium sized moose,.which was no trophy
(yet still too big to arm wrestle), unless you consider moose steak a trophy which I do. Came to an abrupt halt due to his unfortunate intersection with 150 grain Hornady out of my 8x57 at about 70 paces.
(guessing 75-80 yds)
Just behind the shoulder and a tad high,.. not a bang flop,.. but bang,.. take a three or four steps and then flop,.. kick around for a short time and lights out.

Great sleep last night,. its turning into a lucky trip this time ,..
Stuck one this morning (medium sized doe ) 50 yds from camp, Just a bit of a late start,.. so moving more quickly than I thought prudent,.. slowed down ,. got more careful.
Some times you cant win,.. and sometimes you can't loose.

She was broadside head down feeding on acorns
Damp woods (path ) was open,.. soft bottom footware so little to no noise ,.. the hunting gods were with me.
Not much more than 12-14 yd shot ..she stumbld when the arrow hit, and I saw her go down ,.. fresh deer liver tonight.
Everyone else still out,.. I got some bacon goin and and a second pot of coffee on,.Later to day maybe hunt,. maybe fish ,. but first need to take the abuse I know
is coming later ,..yuk yuk

Uf-dah boys ,.. this turning into one good trip .

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from yohan wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Jim In Mo

I asked the same question around the fire last night.
As in,.. W T H are these guys drinking , laws of physics to my knowledge having not changed much since early 70's .. it was explained to me thusly .
TSX will open on light skinned game.(copper holow point) but have exceptional penitation properties.
Pretty cool .

Bet there are some women out there that would like to know more about these exceptional properties yuk yuk

The lead partition bullets (which is where I left off in my handloading endevors for bigger guns ) are apparntly and as I had previoulsy understood more heavily constructed as the bullet weight increases.

I know European hunters have been useing copper bullets in avariety of versions for some time and had good luck with them,. Especially on bigger tougher animals like Boar Stag moose .
Goodness gracious,..I must have been living under a rock cause this is first I hear of the magic TSX.
But what the "H" if it s a better mouse trap try it and use it if we want ,. if not stay with what we know works.

Think now manybe have to get another .338 role some loads and see what the TSX expansion and penetration factorr are on redwood trees,.. three layers of wet newspapaer ,susquaches and flat rock migets who wear 5 inch spike heal cowboy boots.and tote rifles longer ( and bigger ) than they are.

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from SAND BAGGER wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Although DP is right so is Clay, they are both totally right all depending of what part of the animal to be destroyed. In other words, a kill is a kill! The problem I see with a shoulder shot versus a heart and lung, with a shoulder shot sure make gutting a pain in the butt! You can’t roll and hold the critter over on its back.

So make your choice, if I had my druthers I’d go with Clay and if I need to anchor that Elk which Clay always say, shoulder shots are better to “knock there *ick in the dirt”!

This is all to funny; David and Clay are two who totally agree with each other. They just have a different way of looking at it for their upbringing and experience. I’m sure DP was raised in the Eastern part where shooting rats at a garbage dump with 22’s was the thing while Clay was blasting jacks in the next Zip Code with 06’s.

“SITNCC” he calls it, Shoot Them In The Next County Club!

See you Guys later, BACK ON THE ROAD I GO!

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Confucius Say: Man who say "It cannot be done" should not interrupt man doing it...

If you haven't shot any game with Barnes X bullets, you should probably withhold judgement until you have some first-hand experience. Otherwise; you risk looking like you don't know what you are talking (posting) about.

Barnes X-bullets are an innovative design, unlike anything else on the market, other than the recent "me too" knock-offs from Nosler and Hornady that will probably be just as good. I'll keep using Barnes TSX because they work for everything I have tried so far. I just wish they didn't cost $1 apiece.

Johan: Glad your hunt is going well.

My family tells me they have gotten nearly 2 feet of snow in Cheyenne and Laramie over that last 3 days, hopefully even more in the Snowy Range. That should bring some elk down out of the high country by the time I can get back there and go look for them.
Drink a cup of Bourbon for me boys; I'm wishing I was in elk-camp instead of this camp.
AKX

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from squirrelhunter7 wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

In SE Minnesota we have to use shotguns with sabots or slugs. The diameter of a sabot or slug is way bigger than a .338, but it can't reach out as far. Anything within 100 yds. is a dead deer in one shot.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Didn't realize that this discussion was going to center on the pros/cons of the 225 gr. Barnes TSX bullet, thought it was about shoulder shots. Am currently working on shoulders hit with 165 gr. and 115 gr. NBTs,
and the damage is impressive, if not to say devastating. The higher speed of the .25-06
actually does more damage on entry than the .30-'06. Still can't figure out how one doe managed 35 or 40 yards and everything else hit with the same shot was bang-flop. Meat damage, after quartering and rough butchering in camp, was minimal.
Yoyo-WTF is a Boar Stag moose? And I sympathize with you having to live under a rock, I thought you lived under a bridge, but now understand more about your aberrations.

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from Big O wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

AMEN ! Mr.Petzal AMEN !

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from jordjohn44 wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Something must have gone badly wrong with loading your shells yourself if it took that many shots. Either that or you missed the shoulder and didn't hit it in a good spot any of the other times.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Yohan,
Good hearing from you, but none the less, if I'm using a bullet on a whitetail it'll be a softpoint or nothing stronger than a premium bullet in the Partition class.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Hmmm well for those so impaired :or universal experts
such as 30-oh -4 1/2" little man miester,.. apparently claiming title as
THE one and only universal expert on everythring every where ,. but especially within confines of a county or parish where there aint no God and the internet is for sissys.. yuk yuk
(has the cactus juice or the worm at the bottom of the bottle begun to take its tole.)

So OK ~.
Boar-( not boreing like yourself although I do find this mildy entertaining ) as in wild pig
(big mean sons of B!T@hes ) Lot of em in France or were .IE: roots (no pun ) in Russia
Found in the forests of central east and southern Europe & of course what used to be Russia

Moose- or (if you will) "Elg" = Norwegian for moose.
Found in the forests of Scandanavia (and other venues)
Same as our moose here.

Stag ( ie red deer ) - A deer also found in Europe closer to the size of our elk.

And a bonus for you
Shami - also a deer found in the mountains of Germany
Hunted by U.S. citizens only with the assistance of Yeager Miesters (Hunt Masters) ,. and only after they have consumed at least a liter of scnapps the night before on your ticket.

Now,. most people could figure that out ,. still my punctuation is as you say not perfect . Thusly,. so as not to be any part of the cause for your midget head to explode trying to codgitate that one ,,. I offer the above explanation.

Would suggest you go there ,. check it out ,..
Then again,. if you went to Norway you would need stilts just to start sniffing the women ,..
Plus having been there I know the people,. and the likley hood is very high, they would have the same aversion to you and your "ilk" (not elk) that I do.
Land of the midnight sun Vikings etc ,..
sooner ot later get your loud mouth little texas butt kicked all over. Maybe even use you for dwarf tossing contest. So that probably not the best idea either,.
Cause once they figiured out what you actually are ,. they would be honor bound to do some of what is refered to here in the US as B!t@H slapping.
After which they would very likley toss you in fjord or use you to stir a martini. YUK YUK

Oh ya,.. and the bridge I live under?
Is not a tricked out doublewide complete with indoor plumbing and roll out beds,..velvit paintings of elvis, dogs playing cards and tiger stripped curtains.
Which is what your profie indicates yuk yuk

Being honest with the diviorce had to down size but "the brige" I live under,. is still north of 500k even in this market.

Any further questions please feel free to post ,.. happy to help bring the world to the narrow minded universal experts in Texas.

.
Is it true little guys ( all over ) but especialy in Taxas drive pickups so jacked up they need little ladders to get in em and blocks on the peddles to operate ??? My shrink friend thinks, like most samll guys just chalk it up to small man (PP) complex

Oh,.. an one last thing sir ,.. I have two aquaintences and one life long friend from Texas ,.. My friend moved to the midwest when we were both just tad poles ,. but he's a Texan his mind and always will be which is fine by me
This ole boy is the salt of the earth,as are the other
two .. and they aint stupid neither. The four of us killed a whoooole lotta rabbits when we were young.
A good time was had by all and nary a cross word spoken.
So how is it the great state of Texas tolerates pi$$y little universal experts like youself. YUK YUK

Now,.. I gotta talk to a MAN,. before I go out fishing.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

jIM from MO

No argument from me about bullets ,.. truth is unless your shooting from one zip code to the other ( and maybe not then ) dont see the need for anything more than good softpoint bullet,..that is heavy enough ( have seen real ligt ones blow up an make a mess)

Biggest deer I ever took dressed out just over 215 lbs
we got him on scale 4 days after he was shot .so on the hoof likley over 250

At about 50 yds put one,. 150 gr rem core loc
30-30 behind the shoulder ,..1/2 way up .
He bolted and piled up 40 paces from where he was hit .

As i say no argument here

Have good week

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

AlaskanExile

First and foremost, thank you for your service to our nation. You and all those who serve are our true American heroes. The guys and gals who lace up their boots tight and go out there day after day are the real heroes, not the chest thumping politicians and buffoons in D.C.

To your last post: "Confucius Say: Man who say "It cannot be done" should not interrupt man doing it..."

"If you haven't shot any game with Barnes X bullets, you should probably withhold judgement until you have some first-hand experience. Otherwise; you risk looking like you don't know what you are talking (posting) about."

I say well put! Stay safe and good hunting.

Best regards,
WMH

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

There is a darn good reason why I don’t use Barnes bullets and find there isn’t anything I know of requiring the ability to punch thru 1” plate steel! The areas I hunt ricochets are my prime concern and because of this Barnes Bullets are eliminated from my choice to use.

So here we go!

Barnes Bullets

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYOH_p9KLwQ&feature=player_embedded

VERSUS!

The Berger VLD - Best Long Range Hunting Bullet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voyw1H-0CBI&feature=player_embedded

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

1000 Yards Antelope Hunting - Long Range Shooting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssh8Vsbvn2A&feature=related
_______________________________________

700 yard elk kill 300 winmag built by gunsmith71@hotmail.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZnA0jVqG9k&feature=related

_______________________________________

Now this clip talk about your rifle being off!

Trophy Deer shot, innocent bystander killed, poor rabbit !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WypbzC6mi8&feature=related

_______________________________________

Now this clip, even a deer shot with a 50 BMG I had better “BANG FLOPS” with my 22-250 at 600 yards!

Deer Hunt w/50 BMG!!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi8gFJPWHcw&NR=1

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

I have never had a critter go more than 10ft after a shoulder shot, I have how ever wittnesed a will to live one a whitetail doe I shot 2yrs ago I hit her a little low but still took out bottom half of heart and lungs opened up her chest most of the insides were outside and the damn thing still went 1/4 mile not something I am proud of. On the Barnes I have not yet to shoot anything with them but I have 235 grain loaded in my 375H&H and cant wait to pull the trigger on a deer or elk with it. Afriend of mine uses the same bullet in his 375 and gets a elk every year and says they only go one way and tthats down as if electricuted. To everybody out there good luck this season and stay safe.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Clay,

I have to disagree with you on the fact that you yourself admit that you have never used a Barnes bullet. You can take all those Berger VLD Range Monkeys down to the 1,000 yard line for some giggles.

WMH

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Old yo-yo yuk-yuk is out from under his rock again! He who spreads bulls##t like butter and never heard of spelling or punctuation. Still didn't explain what a Boar Stag moose is, but I reckon that is a critter that inhabits the Land of the Trolls. Probably could be killed with a .338 Win Mag. Anyway, Yo yo, beware the Midget with a rifle bigger than he is. He probably can shoot it well, or he wouldn't be carrying the heavy SOB. More than likely, he is a helluva lot smarter than you are, because he is toting a big rifle, not a little ladies' gun. He may be small in stature, but his mental acuity makes up for it, as evidenced by the fact that you are getting into a battle of wits, for which you have no ammunition. And, he is just of the right size to head-butt you in your #9 bird shot sized nuts! Have a Nice Day!

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Old yo-yo yuk-yuk is out from under his rock again! He who spreads bulls##t like butter and never heard of spelling or punctuation. Still didn't explain what a Boar Stag moose is, but I reckon that is a critter that inhabits the Land of the Trolls. Probably could be killed with a .338 Win Mag. Anyway, Yo yo, beware the Midget with a rifle bigger than he is. He probably can shoot it well, or he wouldn't be carrying the heavy SOB. More than likely, he is a helluva lot smarter than you are, because he is toting a big rifle, not a little ladies' gun. He may be small in stature, but his mental acuity makes up for it, as evidenced by the fact that you are getting into a battle of wits, for which you have no ammunition. And, he is just of the right size to head-butt you in your #9 bird shot sized nuts! Have a Nice Day!

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Mnt Hunter hope you have a good trip to Col and good luck let me know how the 7mm works for you.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter
I used the two brands of bullets for a purpose, they are both at the extreme ends of bullet performance. I have shot the Barnes Bullets and they have too much penetration and ricochet into yonder way towards cattle and houses. I’ve always used Hornady and to this date I never lost a critter yet!

As for the Berger shooters including the Sierras, I get better scores on the 1000 yard line with 168 and 190 Grain Hornady!

If it isn’t broke, don’t fix the damn thing!

I’m getting more ability and better results at longer ranges than you Barnes Shooters.
If it works for you and you’re happy with it, USE IT!
If I followed everyone advice and ways, I’d would have never achieved what I have done!

Sir -Alan Ashley-Pitt said it best!
“The man who follows the crowd will usually get no further than the crowd. The man who walks alone is likely to find himself in places no one has ever been.”

This reminds me of the Jack Ass in Alaska who came out to the range with a 375 H&H for Caribou. I told him that was too much gun. The following Wednesday before the weekend in August and Caribou season opened August 01, 1989, this same Jack Ass walked up to me during our get together hunting meeting and asked in front of everyone, Coop how many Bear have you shot, none I responded. I’ve shot 5 Black Bear! I laughed and said, shooting them over bait isn’t very sportsmanship isn’t it and let me ask you a question Sir how many State and Regional High Power matches have you won. Everyone busted up over this and he ran out. That weekend this Jack Ass shot and wounded a very nice Bull and knocked down 3 Cows with one shot. Over penetration, BARNES BULLETS!

If and win I decide to hunt something like a Brown Bear or Water Buffalo, I just might use a Barnes bullet. For now, I’ll stick to my trusty bullet I’ve used now for 47 years, HORNADY!

Good enough for my Dad, good enough for me and my Grandson loves them!

Easy on the wallet too! YUK! YUK!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter

PS

You missed my point Sir :)

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Clay,

I guess I did miss it. I really like the way the Barnes TSX shoots in my rifles that I have tried them in. The terminal performance is equal to the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. I don't worry about ricochet and pass through wher I hunt.

Also, I don't know why someone is giving the minus one's? I agree thatthe Hornady SP's are plenty good for deer.

WMH

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter

You got it!

Barnes Bullets are a fantastic bullet, there not fitted where I hunt and what I do. The area I hunt deer is more of a pest control than hunting. There is a house nearby where a teenager shot a 3x4 and the slug hit the base of his neighbor’s house and before anyone says anything, your right, he shouldn’t have taken the shot to begin with and this is my point of over penetration!

There is a place and time for everything!

Besides, I’ve always been on a budget and don’t have the deep pockets to be going out and buying bullets a DO$$AR a pop!

I always like to get quality shooting time, not broke and sitting at home!

Got some pics on the Savage MZ, ain’t your Daddies MZ!! Checkem out!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

By the way I'm glad Barnes TSX shoots your rifle! When you go for the BIG ONE, your ready to rock and role knowing all the bugs have been worked out!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Hey, I have a shelf full of Hornady bullets for my .308, .257, and .358 caliber rifles for handloading. Also some Core Lokts I bought in bulk before eBay quit listing bullets. I just had a disappointing experience with the 7mm Interbond, but maybe my rifle just didn't like them at 3,200 fps. The Tipped TSX is about $.70 a pop. That's why I mostly shoot Hornady and Speer bullets at everything but elk. Usually, I switch to a .257 Roberts or '06 after the elk hunt is over.

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from muskiemaster wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

just two days ago I shot a doe near, dark and couldn't quite see my shot placement this was with a 30-30, so I got her to stop and shot again this bullet struck the spine. The hole that was in that back was unimaginable to me from a smaller caliber bullet like that it was probably as wide around as my palm.

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from SAND BAGGER wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

David the Barnes bullet is dangerous for the application where I hunt. So I’m not as you put “dead wrong”, you’re just DANGEROUS! Perhaps where you hunt is isolated and shooting a howitzer over a ridge would fall harmlessly.

When a Barnes bullet passes thru, the real question is where is it going?

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from SAND BAGGER wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter

Over at Sand Baggers showing off my new Savage. I think I got the boy hooked!

Clay

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Got thinking, David 338 with a 225-grain Barnes TSX bullet at 2,750 fps?

Light load?

Got thinking, David 338 with a 225-grain Barnes TSX bullet at 2,750 fps?
Light loaded 338 I say.

Hey David, want to barrow my Savage MZ, it pushes a 45 cal 250 at 2800!

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from yohan wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Ok little 04 1/2 " man
Wits ?? acuity ?? mental or otherwise ,. you just can't pi$$ high enough boy.
Obviously you don't ( and likely won't ) realize,
your now and have been on the defensive ,.. and so with that,.
I'm bored with you now.
It was too easy really ,.. then again I'm from a diferent world ,. guys like you get chewed up bad and fast where I come from.

So yall have a nice day too,. take a break ,.. get your blood presssure back down
I'll rattle your cage or your mental acuity ? when I get bored with being bored ,..YUK YUK

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Hey yohan

Went over to Ol'SAND BAGGERs place today and has a pretty good selection even David would drool over, a Damascus 12 Gauge in mint condition.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

AlaskanExile,
I review everything before I post. I still say a Partition expands more than a Barnes and is better on a whitetail if you so choose. Why else from personal experience and Barnes/Nosler websites do they claim 95%+ weight retention for the Barnes and 70% for the Partition? Something has to give and it's not a thin bodied animal such as a whitetail. There are too many much more experienced writers/hunters who encounter a much longer track for their deer using a strong "premium' bullet.
Good hunting regardless, the season is approaching.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Perhaps the reason for "Nuclear Tipped" bullets; there are those who had child hoods like this

http://moshland.com/wp-content/gallery/humor/evileasterbunny.jpg

Or they just feel viciously sadistic!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

One more thing, the Nosler Partition 338 diameter 210 grain is the favorite and #1 choice by Alaska Guides for that caliber. GO FIGURE!

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from T.W. Davidson wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

All:

Last year in NE TX I took half a dozen or so wild pigs over a three-day period. One particular pig was a boar with several inches of chest and shoulder armor; the pig weighed around 250 lbs. I belly-crawled in the grass (and mud) for about 45 minutes until I was close to the shot angle I wanted. The boar was with a herd of about 20 other pigs in a farm field. The herd itself was about 35-40 yards from the swamp-forest it had come from.

I took a prone-position 50-yard angled heart-lung shot with my 257 AI. The bullet hit exactly where I wanted it to. This particular rifle didn't mind warm-to-hot loads, and so on this day I had it spitting out a Barnes TTSX 100-grain bullet at 3350 fps++.

Bullet impact instantly slammed the boar to the ground. For a couple of seconds I was vastly relieved . . . until that tough old boar somehow raised itself up on its front legs and "ran" straight into the swamp-forest. I searched for a very long time in the near inpenetrable swamp-forest. I finally found the boar only about 10-15 yards inside the perimeter of the swamp-forest. When I autopsied the boar, it had no lungs and no heart. Zero. The inside of the pig's chest cavity looked like a hand grenade or mortar round went off in there. The TTSX bullet, by my rough calculation, penetrated (at an angle) about 25-27" before exiting the far side of the boar. Tough bullet. Terrible internal damage. Incredibe penetration power.

In my mind, there is absolutely no way that boar should have moved an inch after getting slammed to the earth by the TTSX bullet and having its lungs and heart blown up by the copper bomb passing its chest cavity. And yet that tough old pig ran a good 50-60 yards before the "OFF" switch finally flipped somewhere deep in that pig's brain. I would not have thought it possible until I saw it with my own eyes.

(I know what I'm about to say here is controversial, but I switched to head shots after that. I only took head shots I was totally confident in. I nailed every head shot I took, at ranges from 30 yards to a little over 100 yards. Every head shot resulted in an instant struck-by-lightning kill. No chase. No search. JPD-Just Plain Dead.)

TWD

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Yo-Yo yuk yuk-
You would be well advised to stay in your different world, AKA The Land of the Trolls, because you sure can't make a popcorn fart's difference in the real world. Have a nice day!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Clay

I'm certainly not a .338 expert since I got rid of mine in 1989 after a brief and painful affair at the range. So I can't comment on the Barnes TSX .338 construction, although I think they are all the same homogenous copper slug.

What hit me on the way in this morning was your comment about "When a Barnes bullet passes thru, the real question is where is it going?". What is the issue with that? It is going the same place your Hornady is going if you miss the target. (yeah, I know you don't miss) So if pass through is a safety issue, why the heck are you using a high power rifle in the first place? Maybe you should be using a shotgun. If that area is not a firearm restiction zone, then maybe it should be!

Foremost rules in safety: Clearly identify your target and know where your backstop is. Never shoot at anything without a clearly apparent backstop to contain errant rounds.

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from thuroy wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

The great thing about the high shoulder shot is even in the few times that it doesn't drop like a ton of bricks you are going to find a dead animal at the end of the blood trail. With the neck shot as someone pointed out it isn't always fatal or it can lead to a slow and painful death such as the jaw shot.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter

Even if I did miss, my Hornady’s will not go zinging off like a full metal jacketed bullet. That is why I use my 22-250 and 25-06 in these areas. Besides what anyone has and will say I have had total satisfaction with the same results as with any Premium Bullet by putting “BACKSTRAP” on the breakfast table. Like I said as the saying goes, IF IT ISN’T BROKE, DON”T FIX IT! When I shot my Moose with my 338 Win Mag with 225 grain Hornady Soft Point it dropped it in its tracks without a kick! Only mistake I made it was on the other side of a bellybutton deep creek in September 8, 1989 in Alaska. Had to wade across with a rope and talk about cold water, YOW!!! Halfway across I noticed a beaver dam I could have walk across.

One more thing, one of the Masters at a High Power Match loaned some ammo to a friend not thinking if he had to reshoot a portion of the match for a range alibi. The range alibi did happen and I loaned him 20 rounds of Hornady 168 Match. Right off the bat he noticed better performance and asked if he can snitch another 22 rounds for the 600 yard line. It was the best loading he ever shot, but because of peer pressure he went back to shooting Sierras with 41.2 grains of IMR4895, the only difference with my load was the bullet so go figure.

I don’t give into peer pressure and because of that when things do go wrong which has happened at many of times, I’m one of the few still able and standing!

Bottom Line

If you have the results you want and you can hit “MOP” and put “BACKSTRAP” on the table, use it!

I don’t have deep pockets and Barnes costing double if not triple sure cuts down on quality trigger time. The loads I use double as both Varmint and Deer loads.
I have loaded a many Barnes before and achieved excellent results.

By the way, my new Savage MZ is one real HOSS! Hell on scopes!

One more thing, DAVID CHILLOUT BRO’! Shoulder shots are the way to go on Elk and larger game especially if they are going to have you for LUNCH!

Besides, I enjoy Bow Hunting the best!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

T.W. Davidson

Shot 300+ pounder boar down in Louisiana with my 30-06 with Hornady 130 grain Soft Points and it knocked it’s *ick in the dirt! As one said, looked like a grenade went off in the rib cage!

Until the brain has exhausted with oxygen, it’s going to keep on trucking! So shoulder shots just might be your only and was the only option you had.

Time and place for everything!

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from yohan wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Clay,..
just peeked in here ,..only two days left then I gotta go home,. and I do not flipping wanna !!

Not following about sand bagger and demascuss shot gun. David drooling ?
Maybe give me a few days
Im gonna put computer away (done messing with the little man from texas,.. for now,. yuk yuk )
Gonna hit it harder ( hunt nore ) next couple days
So try to catch catch up on different ( later ) post

My buddy got a really nice Musky this AM not to mention the lucky son of a gun, stuck a nice 8 pt last night ,..
Not big rack but a big body and still plenty fat.
Full of acorn mash too ,.. so that one gonna eat good YUK YUK
Made my day ( week ) he's had a tough run lately on more than one front.

Tell ya what,..
its so damn much fun this time ,hope this is not the Lord saying "ok you guys".
"This is it ,. you get one more good one then you gotta go ",.. YUK YUK

Have a good week !!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Hey yohan, have a great time!

I wish I Wuz Dar with your group, sounds like a blast like the good ol'times!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

in⋅fal⋅li⋅ble  /ɪnˈfæləbəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation

[in-fal-uh-buhl]

–adjective 1. absolutely trustworthy or sure: an infallible rule.

2. unfailing in effectiveness or operation; certain: an infallible remedy.

3. not fallible; exempt from liability to error, as persons, their judgment, or pronouncements: an infallible principle.

4. Roman Catholic Church. immune from fallacy or liability to error in expounding matters of faith or morals by virtue of the promise made by Christ to the Church.

And they still hade to track his Moose for over a mile after being shot with a 225 grain Barnes in the shoulder.

Nothings 100%!

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

For to mention in my earlier post the deer was recovered, As far as shot placement goes I like both shoulder and behind the shoulder other than the whitetail never had a deer go far. As for bullets I love the Partion and still cant wait to give the Barnes a try.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Even Rush Limbaugh admits he isn’t right 100% of the time, damn if you do and damn if you don’t!

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from KJ wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

For once I have to agree with Clay in my disdain for the neck shot. If you hit the spine it's instant death. If you miss the spine it's a wounded deer that you may or may not be able to track. And the spine isn't a very big target. The shoulder shot may not be infallible, but the heart/lungs are right behind the shoulder. Hit the heart/lungs and you've got venison.

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from 788Ham wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

4 rounds with a .338, to kill a deer? Whoa son!! If you reload those cartridges, let me share something that might help. Wrap the bullets with about 4 wraps of butcher paper before inserting into the charged case, then when you shoot the poor SOB, it will be wrapped and waiting for you when you get up to him! My grandpa and Pop have shot many deer with a .250 Savage, IN THE NECK, all fatal where they dropped. A lot of guys out in the woods are totally over-gunned, sounds like this might be the case here too!

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from thuroy wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

over gunned is better than under gunned.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Listen Fellas, I didn’t want to turn this into a who is right or wrong fight. David is right as I said “Even Rush Limbaugh admits he isn’t right 100% of the time, damn if you do and damn if you don’t I say! David Petzal is good, DARN GOOD and knows his stuff and I respect that! But I have to say I’ve witnessed this time and time again knowing there isn’t anything 100% when taking that shot!!

As a avid hunter practically hunting places only others dream of hunting such as Military Land in areas even restricted to Military Personnel and a solid 4 years in Alaska, my view point’s will differ from time to time with the "Honorable Sir David Petzal".

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Instead of, “Petzal: The "Infallible" Shoulder Shot”

Should have been

“Petzal: The "Infallible" mystery twig that ruined your Shot!”

Got off a shot at an old doe late yesterday evening at 47 yards, but that "Infallible" mystery twig ruined my Shot!”

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

What Clay missed? Must be human after all, went whitetail huntin the other day and saw one hell of a nice muley at 50 yards and had to let him walk dang doe tag well maybe next year have a good season everybody.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

788Ham
Even Deer Hunting with a 50 BMG isn’t an “Infallible" “BANG FLOP”!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi8gFJPWHcw&NR=1

______________________________________

idduckhntr

You finally figured it out? LOL!

A +1 for you!

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from 788Ham wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Clay,
Take a look at the video again, looks like he gut shot him, look behind the rear of the scope, butt of stock. Any animal will not "BANG FLOP" with that kind of shot. Ethical? LOL

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 26 weeks ago

788Ham
I’ve shot allot of game at that range and it sure looks like it you just maybe right. It also looks like they have aleady gutted it but it sure acted like it was center punched I call it.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 26 weeks ago

Well’ Alex my 10 year old Grandson did it again, shot a small doe yesterday on the run at 50 yards using the “David Petzal: The "Infallible" Shoulder Shot”! Yep’ 50 yards and ran 50 yards and notice the exit hole.
Knight Wolverine topped with a Tasco Red Dot, 250 Grain 45 cal Hornady XTP with 110 grains of 777! What the real kicker is this kid never shot the rifle, GO FIGURE!

I bet David is impressed over this one!

Picture taken

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from Tim Platt wrote 4 years 26 weeks ago

Glad to see Yohan back and in his usual take no prisoners mindset. I don't like the shoulder shot but I shoot thinskinned 120 pound field dressed deer. I am always very close to my quarry too so a shot behind the shoulder is no problem and has always produced the best results in my neck of the woods... they fall down right now, and don't get up. Cheaper soft point bullets also seem to work better, and the 100 year old cartridges are my favorite. I have a feeling that is why they have survived as the newer, faster, better inventions fail. 7X57 and 30-06 kill far better than the books and science would lead one to believe.

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from Tim Platt wrote 4 years 26 weeks ago

Yohan what about the Dow over 10,000? I swear to f-ing God I am seriously thinking about pulling everything out and buying land. Am I crazy? My wife thinks so, I just need some sort of confirmation. I think it is ready to bottom out again after the stimulus money is gone... been a long time I miss you guys.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 26 weeks ago

Ralph ,.Im back about day and the S#it has been hitting the fan so just got a chance to look in here
Thought you got swept away by the stock faries. YUK YUK

Unfortunatly as a savvy dude you of course realize I can not advise you specifically .
No formal relationship ,. no risk profile etc etc .Plus your a Republican yujk yuk

However generally speaking ( which is what we do in here) as is normally the case the markets are a leading edge of an economy moving away from recession.
There are also indications ( expectastions )
of more job loss and increasd forclosure rates
But in some areas housing is begining a recovery.
Still the next wave of adjusteable mortgages is also about to reset ,.. which in general is proabably not good.

Speaking in general terms ,. none of this bothers me a great deal except the appraent change or possibly the recent but longstanding uncoverd attitude ,. of the big banks.
Which in my opinion now are a blight on the economy.
Or put anothet way no better than udal robber barons
or ( Howdy Duty and the Hunter ) Bush / chaine

Meaning that they made big mistakes by taking big risk. Big risk (gambles) also in some cases result in big profits (Trading profits)
Big profits are cause ( I hear ) to pay the apparent talent,.. huge bonuses,. and I mean huge .
I am less than small potatoes compared to those guys and while I cant prove it.
Thispresent buisness mind set by banks in my humble opinion extracts money from the economy and creates no general wealth or economic strength other than for a few at the top of the ( food ) money chain.
And I will (as ole Justin Wilson says) GARONTEE there aint many liberals in that bunch,.. even concervative librals like me .

I think we have created an additional monster in that the banks and brokerage houses that were bailed out with TARP funds. Having repayed them or not are now fighting the very legislation ( regulation) that would prevent it from happening again.
Take it another step mentally ,. and these people are esentially trying to make it leagal to be outside the law and by any moral standards assured a penthouse in H@ll,..
Because the money that bailed em out ( tax payer money ) is the money they now trying to extract from the economy ( fancy way to say steal ) by gigantic profit and bouns structure .

Gigantic profit comes in part with no small risk and with risk there come losses,. in order to stay profitable how do we offset losses ?
Why just ask the insurance coimpanies. Pass the losses on to the consumer ( increases fees and rates )strangling those whos money ( blood) the banks and insurnace companies feed on
with the profit and bonuses to "the talent "

That said again while i cannot advise you I have begun to move back in .But I saw the crap coming and was out 90% by dec 2007,..I am however going in carefully, Because I just dont know if there is a next shoe to drop.
Menatlly I think we are on a path to recovery ,. but somehting is nagging me so Im gonna be carefull.

On the flip side bank stock )( regional bank stock ) that I baught at 15 is now 7-8
which was offset by buying twice as much when it was 4 .
So while I was viewed by some as nuts in the months preceeding 2008 Im not now,.. and by some of those same people looked upon as something of a gue rue ,. which i am also NOT
what I am is a no nonsence ( if its too dam good to be true it probabaly isnt true mindset)with the understanding all markets cycle. which the credit loss swap bone heads chose to , and were allowed to ingore.

We are put in a position by a republican congress in demcratic ( well almost democratic ) administration 1999-2000 that deregulated lending which let the monster off the chain and allowed risk taking unpresedented in the history of civilization .
By who? banks and brokers ,. thats who,. who are now trying to keep the same doors open .
I will here say this again ,. in my opinion for people like Madooff and others of his ilk who simply steal generations of money we should institute the death penalty. If a few guys on top and out of reach of normal law get hung, shot gased or stoned to death.
we would have fewer of these problems.

Aside from that Ralph if we don't drop into another hole
caused ( dug ) by the same people doing he same things In my humble opinion we might make it throug this ,. but it is gonna hurt a lot of people unecesarily .
Which for some,. might be food for thought leading to a hold mentality. But also because my first buinsess endevors were in Real Estate and to some extent still are today I like having a foot on both sides of that fence.

Went hunting again,.. got a good bear story from last Sunday but gotta get some sleep now

Best regards

Meaning

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from yohan wrote 4 years 26 weeks ago

Clay,.. Mystery twig YUK YUK !!
I like it,.. every now an then,.. it is
just a damn mystery

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 26 weeks ago

My Brother sent me a picture of a doe he shot with his Savage Muzzle Loader. Shot it just behind the shoulder a heart and lung shot. On the exit side the bullet blew out a third of the rib cage with the stomach and part of the intestines coming out intact. He’s shooting the 45 cal 300 grain TC Shockwave out around 2500fps. About 20 minutes later a wild pit-bull showed up and started growling at him and the rest is history!

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from dangerous game wrote 4 years 21 weeks ago

Hey guys, i'm wondering if i'm alone thinking maybe this deer had its adrenaline pumping from something else before the shot, like a cougar. Oh and think about their name (MULE) deer they are as stubborn as mules at going down,and a 338 loses alot of punch over 200 yards.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

One more point of discussion, some do prefer the neck shot. I just wish I had a nickel for every wounded deer I had to track because of this. Allot of the shots misses the vital and only blows out the wind pipe, NOT GOOD!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

sgaredneck

I just love all the neck shot gurus. They prance and puff-up and spout their prowess until one day they flub the shot and end up in a tracking exercise that seldom ends well.

Most of 'em are as full of stuffing as the Christmas goose..... Rookies, I say. Or as a parallel to Clay.....Range Monkeys!

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

I agree with Dave's last comments on this issue, and contradict myself in the same breath...I have not had animals go further then 30 yards when shot in the shoulder/chest area. The bigger the bullet, the faster they drop has been my experience, BUT nothing in hunting, or shooting, an animal comes with a guarantee. That first shot must be placed with confidence, and every ethical hunter should be prepared for the follow-up shot(s)if needed.
ps-I am not in favor of neck shots, either.

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from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

I'm glad deer don't have big claws and fangs (yes, I know some species do have fangs) along with the attitude of a boar hog with a hangover! If so they would kill more people than lions and cape buffalo put together. Deer can be just plain hard to kill.

This also brings home the fact that perfect doesn't really exist, it is only a figment of the imagination or at best a momentary glimmer. However, we must still try to attain it as the ultimate goal.

I will also continue to play the odds and shoot for that magic spot on the point of the shoulder, it might not be perfect but it will do!

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

One of the fellows who helps tend our farm loves his neck shot. I will not take that one unless the animal is ten feet away. In other words, I will not take that one. He had a long run of bang/flops until he went a little low on a very nice buck. After that episode of never recovering the animal, I think he saw the light on that shot. It appears to be a high percentage shot until it fails.

And I've said it before. Animals can't read scripts. Some don't know when to fall dead. Even with a textbook-solid shot. That wild instinct to live is sometimes powerful indeed.

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from focusfront wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Great subject, Dave. A breath of honest air. A .338 for deer might be overpowered, but there's one huge benefit; blood trail. I don't hunt with sub-calibers but I have hunted with guys who do, and I can tell you first-hand that tracking even a well-hit deer with a .223 caliber entrance wound and no exit wound is an exercise in futility. Usually your only blood trail is from the deer's nose, and that doesn't start until the deer runs a bit. If you accept the fact that you are going to be doing some tracking, you will appreciate an exit wound. Save your mouse guns for mice and shoot your deer with .35 Rem at woods ranges. My .35 Rem. Marlin 336 is a nice enough rifle that everyone reading this wants one anyway.

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from ishawooa wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Keep shooting and you will miss sooner or later and/or you will have to follow a wounded animal like DB described in spite of your best efforts. I also wholeheartedly agree with Clay concerning the neck shot. What is really revolting in a neck shot gone wrong is when it removes the lower jaw. I always aim for the shoulder or thereabouts depending upon the bullet I am using.

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from davidpetzal wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

To Clay Cooper: You are dead wrong about that body mass stuff. I've shot animals weighing anywhere from 70 pounds to 500 pounds with 225-grain X-bullets and they all performed the same.

To Alaska Exile: I can't list specific charges, but I can tell you that the .338 works best with either RelodeR 19 or IMR 4831, and either CCI 250 or Federal 215 primers.

To everyone: Sorry I haven't been able to jump in more in the past week or so, but I've been traveling in places where there is no Internet and probably no god. Almost done, however.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

I haven't shot a deer with a rifle in a few years because i've been tagging out with my bow, but i always favor the shoulder shot when presented. I'm hunting public land mostly or small non-exclusive private pieces, in heavily hunted N.central PA. If a shot deer runs off it is likely to be shot by someone else. A bullet that breaks the shoulder and takes out the lungs is 100% fatal, but like you pointed out Dave, sometimes the deer wish to contest this a little longer or farther than i'm comfortable with. Still i believe with an adequate caliber and bullet, it's a very high percentage shot.

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from hunt3r wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

yeah, i hear peple knock a particular bullet and/or caliber because a deer or animal that ran off like those mentioned. Obviously a 338 win is plenty of gun for any deer, but sometimes things just dont' work out as planned. its not the bullet or rifle's fault, mother nature can be unpredicatable.
I've also come to love the barnes tsx bullet!

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

ishawooa-
Couldn't agree more about the neck shot, it does not work every time, and can go wrong just as easy as it can go right. Same for head shots, except for a close range finisher. Shoulder shot is the most forgiving
and allows for some miss factor.
I had an experience on my last hunt where I shot a doe dead in the point of the shoulder, and she kicked both heels in the air and promptly left like her tail was on fire. I found blood and a piece of lung, and eventually found the deer about 35 or 40 yards away, thoroughly dead. When cleaned, she had a hole in her shoulder, no lungs, and a half dollar sized hole on the other side between the fourth and fifth rib. Hit her with a 115 gr. NBT. So the shoulder shot is not infallible, but it allows some slack.
Two other deer hit with the same shot, were "bang-flop".

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Our guy changed his tune on that neck shot. He lost a nice deer and the bad shot + failure to track (which he is very good at) shook him a bit. I believe the deer lived quite a while until it expired from not being able to take in food & water, along with being in abject misery from infection. A sad way to go for anything.

Now as far as rookie, he does have enough antlers nailed up on the barn to go all the way down one side (about 65'). All that doesn't excuse a poorly executed (unethical IMO) shot though.

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Yohan;
Thanks for the physics lesson, but you aren't getting it. My buck that ran a few hundred yards had it's lungs totally destroyed by the big bad Barnes-X bullet, it then exited, leaving a nice blood trail. When I got to where he sat (he could not get up)he was bleeding out so I shot him in the neck with my Glock 45.
I have instantly killed two other deer with Barnes X bullets one with a 7mm/160 and another with the 338/225 and both were of the bang/flop variety. One was not much over 100 pounds and it looked like a bomb went off inside it.
Johan, your resistance theory needs some work. Maybe you should go back to physics class?
These bullets always do a lot of damage and then exit.
I brought that story up because it was similar to Dr. Petzal's example, of a deer fatally hit but still running. Barnes uses the same alloy, solid copper to make their bullets whether they are 80 grain 250 Savage bullets or 400 grain 458 Lott bullets, it's the same copper, and will act the same in gelatin or flesh or firewood at the same velocity as a larger bullet regardless of bullet weight/caliber. Longer for caliber bullets will expand larger at the same velocity because those have longer cuts in the nose.
If they weren't any good why are all the other bullet companies copying their idea? It can't only be lead bans in California, that's not a big enough market.
The areas where I hunt for deer and elk, (Montana) allow either species to be taken on the same hunt, even the same day. I might have elk loads in my rifle but I'm not going to change ammo to shoot a mule deer or white-tail. I'm not going to re-zero between my elk hunt in Wyoming and my deer hunt in Montana either, I'm going to shoot the same load for both.
There are Grizzly bears in both places too, and I'm happy to carry extra horsepower when ol' fuzzy is around.
I'll have to shoot a deer at Thanksgiving with my 338 from stem to stern to see if I can get the bullet back, and show you guys that the big X bullets are expanding, even in puny deer.
AKX

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

AlaskanExile,
It's not the gun grabbers - the grabbing has mostly passed around here. I've seen plenty of guns on the racks around here every time I go in a shop. Even the dirty filthy mark of the beast AR's lately...I love my AR's.

I think it's the mass confusion over supposed ammo legislation. How many times has everyone here had the "HR 45" one land in your inbox? What I can't figure out is the fact that one shop I frequent has a relatively OK supply of primers and powder, then you go to the next shop and get a completely different story from the guy behind the counter. Conspiracy???? Aliens???? Haints????

Only the Shadow knows.......

Dave:
No god and no internet? Are you back in Schefferville again with Boddington???

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

davidpetzal-
Since your name came up in our hunting camp, in reference to some of your bullet choices, we all decided you would be welcome in Texas anytime you choose to show up. We have a lot of God out here, as well as rifles, but are somewhat short on civilization as defined by damyankees and the Internet is as welcome in deer camp as fire ants or seed ticks.BTW, most agreed with your bullet selections. When are you coming out?

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Clay,

I guess I did miss it. I really like the way the Barnes TSX shoots in my rifles that I have tried them in. The terminal performance is equal to the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. I don't worry about ricochet and pass through wher I hunt.

Also, I don't know why someone is giving the minus one's? I agree thatthe Hornady SP's are plenty good for deer.

WMH

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Mule Deer and Jack Rabbits I place in the same category. What I mean is they can take one hell of a punishment. I’ve blown Jack Rabbits in half and as long as they have front leg drive there still trucking.

David makes an excellent point, however there is much more to this than anyone thinks. By blowing the shoulder out basically speaking takes out there front leg drive like the Jack Rabbit is what you want for Big Game to anchor them on the spot. Still whatever we may think, cutting off the blood flow to the brain by blowing out the lungs or heart preferably both is what really turns the lights off and that’s is why I’m so successful with my 22-250.

It takes bullet mass to blow the shoulder out, but to really take out the heart and longs to deprive oxygen to the brain etc the key is “Hydrostatic Shock” is what I found to be the #1 player for Mule Deer and White Tail.

Further discussion:

Normally when shot in the shoulder, you also blow out the arteries from the heart to the brain and chances are your leaving the heart and lungs intact to a degree. If your shot is too high, you miss the arteries and if and chances are the lungs and heart intact even though the front leg drive is out the game isn’t over yet!

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Dr. Petzal; What sort of powder and charge did you use? I was just wondering,as I have a box of 225 grain TSX bullets I'm going to load up when I get home from Iraq in a few weeks.
338 Winchester is obviously not enough gun for deer :), what should a man go to from that, 375 Ruger, 404 Jeffrey? I love the 338 for everything and usually they fall over, right away when I don't miss.
I had a mule deer go a few hundred yards last fall after I shot it with that 338/225 grain Barnes X bullet, an old PMC load I managed to hoard a few boxes of after they quit making ammo in the US.
The deer was hit through the lungs and was dead, but was not convinced for a good ways. A 230 grain 45ACP slug finally ended his run.
Animals never read the script. Good one SGARedneck.
Keep shooting until they don't move!
AKX

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

i have argued with, and probably been dubbed a snotnose when i told some older guys their neck shots (and/or .22 centerfires) were not advisable. it's ok by me, when you're right, you're right.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Walt Smith-
Swamps in Michigan are a lot different than senderos in Texas. A 50 yrd. shot on a Texas deer lease or public hunting area is as rare as a 27" unicorn. Do what works for you, but a whitetail deer of any size won't go far with a well placed shoulder shot. Most of our shots are between 110 and 250 yards. Know what you, and your rifle, can do.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Well, I favor the "Just behind the shoulder ,a little high shot, Never had to run on down or shoot twice" but last year while loading for my .308 Rem.700, I had a bag of 150 gr. win. flat point and I loaded a box. Why, I don't know. When time to go hunt I put 3 in my Rem. and shot a deer behind the shoulder but This time I shot a little too high. Made a terrible wound but didn't kill the deer as quick as I wanted. The deer never moved from the spot, but I wasn't pleased with the shot.I prefer the Sierra 150gr. Sp at a little lower velosity here in the hill country where the shots are at about 75-125 yds.

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Dr. Petzal;
Thanks, the powder you used was what I was curious about, I know you can't post the charges.
I have a can of Reloader 19 on the shelf at home and I'll start with that. Primers? I only have about 400 left and I've had 10K on order from Cabela's since April. I hope I can find a few more when I get home. I think I have 200 of each. I truly dislike gun grabbers!
Thanks for the back-up on the body-mass theory. I would rather fight than switch, from my x-bullets!
AKX

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from KJ wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

The farthest I've ever had a whitetail run after being shot was 200 yards, through a soybean field. She was hit right behind the shoulder (about 1" back) with a Remington 12 gauge copper solid sabot. The slug took out the top of both lungs and left a channel the size of my thumb on her heart. The exit wound was huge, and the blood trail looked like it had been poured out with a bucket. She even flagged when she ran, causing me to think I had missed her. 200 yards away she stopped and fell over dead. I prefer the shoulder shot, because I've never had a deer run after a hit directly on the shoulder, but that's not to say it couldn't happen. Every animal is different.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Y'all keep on using all the "other" bullets. That way, the debate rages on. I've used the TSX and TBBC and seen results. I've also seen the separated jackets and core fragments from the "others". Keep shooting and trailing, I'll just keep on doing what I've been doing. Sooner or later you might figure it out..... LOL

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from thuroy wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

The great thing about the high shoulder shot is even in the few times that it doesn't drop like a ton of bricks you are going to find a dead animal at the end of the blood trail. With the neck shot as someone pointed out it isn't always fatal or it can lead to a slow and painful death such as the jaw shot.

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from Joseph Bishop wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

I know what is a pretty good guarantee a solid broadside shot with a 3/4 ton truck at 75mph. Few deer get up or try to run for that matter after you send them flying 30ft and sliding another 10-15ft. Not my preferred means of taking game, but my grandma got me a deer easier than any I have shot, and cheaper too; at least for me. Car/Truck deer collisions are messy on both ends.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Ok Gents like Lucy and Dessie
"Splian me this" ,..
Haveing shot a truck load of whitetails and a few mulies ,..two mooses and a red stag
most with a souped up 8x57 sending 150 gr Hornady's chroned at just a tad under 2900fps.
But also a numbr(whitetails) with 45-70,.. 30-30 and a 12gage slug .
The shot that knockes em down and keeps em down
but does not break the shoulder and ruins almost no meat is high behind the shoulder yet under the spine ,.. they kick and flail for short time ,. but have NEVER had one (anything) get up when hit in that spot .

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from lovetohunt wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

A few weeks ago I shot a spike just like yohan said. Behind the shoulder and just a tad high. The deer went down and stayed down right where I had pulled the trigger on him. Shot was taken with my TC Triumph 50 cal. muzzle loader. 100 grains of power and a 245 grain powerbelt. 30-ish yards.

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from dog60 wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Anybody have any experience with shoulder shots using a .50 muzzleloader with 295 gr. hollow points? I have a friend who swears that the shoulder shot is the bang flop--but he's not a muzzleloader hunter.

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Clay, the Barnes X bullet is not built any different regardless of the diameter/weight as far as I can tell, same materiel, same design. 25 caliber up to 458 same bullet, different scale.
How do you know that it doesn't work like it should on lighter game? I've never gotten one back, those pass right through anything short of cord-wood that I have hit. I have no idea what they look like as they always exit, even one deer I hit in the spine with a 7mm 160gr X-bullet dropped on the spot but we looked all over for the bullet in the hillside and never found where it hit.
I shot some cord-wood once from about 4 feet away to see if I could get the bullets back, they went almost to the end (24 & 28 inches of penetration) in solid, dry birch. Those bullets looked beautiful, four spread petals, very even, just like the magazine ads. Not one point was broken off, and the weight was within 5 grains of 225 on both bullets. Deer are not made of birch, but I can't imagine that the bullets don't expand in a similar manner in flesh, I just don't buy it.
What say you; Clay?
AKX

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from albertahunter wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Interesting stories non the least and new hunters should take note and learn from us who have experienced all kinds of unexplainable events taking game with firearms. I have seen several animals drop in their tracks from 6mm varmint loads and others run as unharmed after a 300WM passed from rearend out front shoulder. Best advice I can give is dont take iffy shots unless no other choice on last day and follow up every shot by cheking the area animal headed. After every season I find too many wasted animals hunters "missed".

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

In my opinion, use a bullet to match the game at hand. The Barnes bullet is fine for elk, tough body and muscle, etc., but, the mule deer should have been shot with a soft point. I'm tired of people thinking these premium bullets 'can do it all'. Yea they can kill, but as in this case as most, they don't drop them where they were shot.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Jim in MO

I have not killed a pile of deer with them, but the deer I have shot with a Barnes 165 grain Triple Shock dropped right in their tracks. Same results with Trophy Bonded Bear Claws of the same weight in .30-06 and .308 Win. I think the only other bullet I have used in over 20 years of deer hunting is Remington Core Lokt's, which seemed to kill deer pretty dead.

I agree with you. You don't have to shot deer wit hpremium bullets. Not that hard to kill with good shot placement.

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from JHawes wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

I had a similar experience when I started hunting a while back. I hit the buck right behind the shoulder with my 12ga and he stumbled a bit and then ran another 100yds into the woods before he dropped. While me and my dad were dressing the deer the heart and lungs were nearly nonexistent from the damage that had been done. After seeing that I was completely astonished that the deer didn't drop in his track let alone run 100 yards.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

2-Alaskanexile
Drove into hunting camp about and hour ago ,.. its late and Im jacked up from the drive so cant sleep ( yet )
and of course one genius brought lap top,so blame him
Much as I intended to go cold turkey ( no phones no computer ) figured can't sleep peek in here.
Usually about 4 oz scotch or 12 oz milk will send the sand man ,. about half way through the scotch now YUK YUK,,. and its workin
Damn I love hunting camp,. almost as much as I love to hunt. Plus this year I didnt have to kill myself getting here and getting set ,.. firewood all cut tarps strung,. tents up ,. just drive in ,..and say hello Stow my gear set up my army cot and check to see whats simmering in the pot.Goo dthing about this bunch is that no one dosnt know at least somehing about cooking ,.. and that is flipping great. KP is on rotation thos ewho cook do not clean and thos who clean dont cook on that day
and if we get one that tthings he's too good to cook ,. or clean he;s dwon the road.

Anyway
Mr Clay Cooper is right.
225 barnes ( if the ones im thinkin about ) are consructed such that a certain amount of resistance is required for optimum performance and it more than a deer will normally provide

You can kill deer with full patch bullets quite well and constently but you don't find many (bullets) cause they sail right on through
This ( in the upper upper Midwest ) was not an uncommon practice back in 60's.
WWII vets would use military surplus ammo but keep a box (sporting rounds/ soft points) handy for the warden ,.. Military ammo one 'H " of lot cheeper and if you needed to take a texas heart shot ,.. you could do that and not wreck a lot of meat.(keeping in mind these guys were meat hunters) some of the best hunters and sprtsmen I have ever encountered but meat hunters non the less. which by the byh is my main goal ,. coul dgive rats behind about trophys ,. the meat is my trophy.

Can say I never did it ,. but I have seen the result of 150gr 30-06 military surplus going end to end on a big whitetail .Quick kill with minimum meat loss.
Or if a (side) chest shot,.. think of it like an arrow but with a certain "foot-pound" advatage ,.. there is a hole where there aint suposed to be a hole ,. if its through the lungs liver or heart ,. its only a matter of time,.. but , many times not the "bang flop" which
is why your deer took off after being hit with a big bad bullet that didnt open .

Thus the intended function for big heavily constructed y bullets is for greater penitration on big heavy game,..
Shoot something realitively small like a deer,.
(less resitsance )they will kill for sure but wont open (expand) as intended.
225 gr (anything ) going 2900fps +/- will kill
any critter but ( if memeroy serves )
As Mr Petzal has stated " 225 barnes will
shoot though a redwood and kill a susquatch on the far side".
That is not deer medicine and works little better than full patch ( jacketed) military surplus ammo aside from bullet diameter.which in principal would allow a slightly better blood trsil.

Waaay the heck back ( early 70's) my Dad who was in ordinace in the service (wwII) After which he worked for a time as a gun smith,. and later in ballistics for Olin corp,. over time develped not a theory but a thinking .
That too much speed would be counter productve if you need penitration.
His thinking was medium to low velocity v/s hyper velocity is better ,..
Intuitively I agree with that
IE: Doing a belly flop from the high board hurts one hell of lot more than falling face forward into the water from pool side That said Im not half bad with numbers but the abilty to prove that mathmatically is beyond me,
Do howevr think it could be done,. the big varioable of course being BULLET (projectile) CONSTRUCTION " .

So,.. to think of it in the extream.
If you shoot a big stiff bullet at a F & S magazine the resistance will be the same as magazine shot with a (lighter) bullet.
Thus the principal of energy transfer occurs.

If nothing else is considered.
The wieght difference (ratio) between the lighter and heavier bullet allows,.. that the lighter bullet will react more to that same resistance in a more vilolent way . IE: expand more quickly than a bigger heaver pill expending more enegry into the target,. while the bigger heavier bullet expends "terminal energy" in a tree or rock out yonder.

Jim from Mo had quick kills with 165 gr ,. which is a whole different animal from 225 gr.
As we all know you you dont need to pound 4 penny nails with a four pond hammer.In practice it is actuallly a bad idea
same as you dont ned an elephant gun to hunt wabbits.
Wabbits that Mr cooper shoots withstanding of course YUK YUK

Or as stated by a number here in ,.. mactch the round to the game.

Never shot a bear ( actually kinda like em ) or at least like to watch em.
So cant speak from experiance
But I have had ocasion to stick a round ( or two ) into other beasties that do not take kindly to that form or recreation ,..
Which means,.. that if you dont provide them the winged journey into the beyong forth with ,. you are very likley to become the very next and only project for that day.
I then want a bullet that will shoot through one grade school one middle school ,a red wodd AND kill as suquatch on the far side
But i would not use that bullet o a whitetail unless of cours I was attacked yuk yuk

Hope that helps,..

Later guys

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from Bernie wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

My favorite bullet/load for the .338 is a 225-grain Hornady Spire-Point ahead of 72 grs. of H-4831. I shot a number of mule deer and elk with that load, also three big barren ground caribou bulls at ranges from 35 yards to 368 paces. Perfect performance every time. One five-point bull elk I shot with this load also was at about 35 yards.

I agree that many times these premium bullets are unnecessary for lots of big game hunting, and actually do not kill as quickly as standard Hornadys, Speers, Sierras and Remington Core-Lokts.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

2 AlaskanExile

Decided to fish today instead of hunt ,. hunt tomorrow ,.
will be rested then.

Didn't mean to come off upity ,.having some,. but not a lot of esperiance with .338
Only thing I can think ,.. must have got the wrong bullet plugged into my brain. Will also admit I do not handload for that caliber and actually no longer own one.

Have however for a long time understood pretty well sectional density and ballistic coefficant IE: long for caliber etc etc ) ,. if you do to then no need for futher discusion in that regard.

Guess i miss read ,..got the wrong impression as to what you meant about bullet and performace ,. then again i did have about 5-6 Oz of scotch yuk yuk

I have however swated a lot of deer in my time ( well over 100) with most well shot ,. yet as most know most of us are not perfect ( except possibly that sawed little gienius from texas the one and only
30- 041/2 " P P miester)

Nothing to be proud of but will admit a few needed more killing than others ,which is a kind way to put it.

But still I never (ever) experianced what you described ,.. so given the template of personal experiance guess I just t took a wrong turn

As to the physics lesson again sorry didn't mean to come off that way ,.. still,.. not many are gonna teach me much unless they have engineering background too.

So,.. have a good day ,. ddn't mean to rile ya ,..
Caught a very nice Northern this morning and had Musky follow but couldnt get him or her to take,. also
some "eyes" and 45 perch ( Three of us fishing)
Fresh fish,. & fried taters with onions tonight !
One of the guys brought the last of his home grown tomatoes ,.. and that guy know what he's about when he decides to make a salad .

Happy days !!

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Well, here’s old yoyo yuk yuk, back out from under his bridge again. Guess you just can't stand it when your mental superiors post something, so here we go with the confused bloviating of a troll who has been every where, done every thing, and is welcome nowhere. Yoyo, you really should lay off the Hoppe's #9 and airplane glue, you get your misspelled fiction so confused, it does not make sense even to you.
P.S. - From scanning some of your nitwit posts, I personally do not believe you know a .338 Win Mag. from a flat rock. JMHO. Have a nice day!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Good Hunting Yohan!

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

SGARedneck; It's our reasonable/unreasonable fear of the gun grabbers that has caused this current panic over some guns, ammo, and some components. They haven't grabbed any guns in a while but everyone assumes that they will try something.
Jim in MO; I would agree with you if we were talking about Partition bullets,but we're not. Those are made tougher as the calibers increase. They have to, they're made of lead, which is soft.
Barnes bullets are made from solid copper, same alloy regardless of bullet weight. Any animal, even a small one (70 pounds in DEP's case) is enough resistance to cause an X-bullet to expand. If it expands but is moving too fast, the petals will shear off, but that didn't happen to the bullets I fired into the birch wood, at point-blank range with my 338. No one said any bullets didn't work any more.
Dave was just pointing out that even if you use an excellent bullet, in a sufficient caliber, and make a perfectly placed shot, a game animal may still travel a long ways before expiring.
That was the point,in case you didn't get it the first time, review until you get it. Nobody said any bullet was better than any other or wouldn't work anymore.

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from shane wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

I think what Clay said is true for most bullets but the TSX isn't most bullets, it's designed completely differently than the rest with a few exceptions. It includes two features that are completely incompatible in conventional bullet voodoo and are at two different extremes - solid construction and a hollow point.

You use hollow points on varmints and bad guys - they expand rapidly and violently but don't penetrate worth a damn. You use solids when you want minimal if not zero expansion for penetration through thick tough scary beasts that don't live 'round these parts.

The TSX is both. Its hollow point ensures that it expands rapidly and fully on even light, thin skinned game, and its solid construction ensures that it (almost always) stays in one piece without blowing up to blast all the way through.

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from SAND BAGGER wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Although DP is right so is Clay, they are both totally right all depending of what part of the animal to be destroyed. In other words, a kill is a kill! The problem I see with a shoulder shot versus a heart and lung, with a shoulder shot sure make gutting a pain in the butt! You can’t roll and hold the critter over on its back.

So make your choice, if I had my druthers I’d go with Clay and if I need to anchor that Elk which Clay always say, shoulder shots are better to “knock there *ick in the dirt”!

This is all to funny; David and Clay are two who totally agree with each other. They just have a different way of looking at it for their upbringing and experience. I’m sure DP was raised in the Eastern part where shooting rats at a garbage dump with 22’s was the thing while Clay was blasting jacks in the next Zip Code with 06’s.

“SITNCC” he calls it, Shoot Them In The Next County Club!

See you Guys later, BACK ON THE ROAD I GO!

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from AlaskanExile wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Confucius Say: Man who say "It cannot be done" should not interrupt man doing it...

If you haven't shot any game with Barnes X bullets, you should probably withhold judgement until you have some first-hand experience. Otherwise; you risk looking like you don't know what you are talking (posting) about.

Barnes X-bullets are an innovative design, unlike anything else on the market, other than the recent "me too" knock-offs from Nosler and Hornady that will probably be just as good. I'll keep using Barnes TSX because they work for everything I have tried so far. I just wish they didn't cost $1 apiece.

Johan: Glad your hunt is going well.

My family tells me they have gotten nearly 2 feet of snow in Cheyenne and Laramie over that last 3 days, hopefully even more in the Snowy Range. That should bring some elk down out of the high country by the time I can get back there and go look for them.
Drink a cup of Bourbon for me boys; I'm wishing I was in elk-camp instead of this camp.
AKX

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Didn't realize that this discussion was going to center on the pros/cons of the 225 gr. Barnes TSX bullet, thought it was about shoulder shots. Am currently working on shoulders hit with 165 gr. and 115 gr. NBTs,
and the damage is impressive, if not to say devastating. The higher speed of the .25-06
actually does more damage on entry than the .30-'06. Still can't figure out how one doe managed 35 or 40 yards and everything else hit with the same shot was bang-flop. Meat damage, after quartering and rough butchering in camp, was minimal.
Yoyo-WTF is a Boar Stag moose? And I sympathize with you having to live under a rock, I thought you lived under a bridge, but now understand more about your aberrations.

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from jordjohn44 wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Something must have gone badly wrong with loading your shells yourself if it took that many shots. Either that or you missed the shoulder and didn't hit it in a good spot any of the other times.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

1000 Yards Antelope Hunting - Long Range Shooting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssh8Vsbvn2A&feature=related
_______________________________________

700 yard elk kill 300 winmag built by gunsmith71@hotmail.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZnA0jVqG9k&feature=related

_______________________________________

Now this clip talk about your rifle being off!

Trophy Deer shot, innocent bystander killed, poor rabbit !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WypbzC6mi8&feature=related

_______________________________________

Now this clip, even a deer shot with a 50 BMG I had better “BANG FLOPS” with my 22-250 at 600 yards!

Deer Hunt w/50 BMG!!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi8gFJPWHcw&NR=1

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Old yo-yo yuk-yuk is out from under his rock again! He who spreads bulls##t like butter and never heard of spelling or punctuation. Still didn't explain what a Boar Stag moose is, but I reckon that is a critter that inhabits the Land of the Trolls. Probably could be killed with a .338 Win Mag. Anyway, Yo yo, beware the Midget with a rifle bigger than he is. He probably can shoot it well, or he wouldn't be carrying the heavy SOB. More than likely, he is a helluva lot smarter than you are, because he is toting a big rifle, not a little ladies' gun. He may be small in stature, but his mental acuity makes up for it, as evidenced by the fact that you are getting into a battle of wits, for which you have no ammunition. And, he is just of the right size to head-butt you in your #9 bird shot sized nuts! Have a Nice Day!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter
I used the two brands of bullets for a purpose, they are both at the extreme ends of bullet performance. I have shot the Barnes Bullets and they have too much penetration and ricochet into yonder way towards cattle and houses. I’ve always used Hornady and to this date I never lost a critter yet!

As for the Berger shooters including the Sierras, I get better scores on the 1000 yard line with 168 and 190 Grain Hornady!

If it isn’t broke, don’t fix the damn thing!

I’m getting more ability and better results at longer ranges than you Barnes Shooters.
If it works for you and you’re happy with it, USE IT!
If I followed everyone advice and ways, I’d would have never achieved what I have done!

Sir -Alan Ashley-Pitt said it best!
“The man who follows the crowd will usually get no further than the crowd. The man who walks alone is likely to find himself in places no one has ever been.”

This reminds me of the Jack Ass in Alaska who came out to the range with a 375 H&H for Caribou. I told him that was too much gun. The following Wednesday before the weekend in August and Caribou season opened August 01, 1989, this same Jack Ass walked up to me during our get together hunting meeting and asked in front of everyone, Coop how many Bear have you shot, none I responded. I’ve shot 5 Black Bear! I laughed and said, shooting them over bait isn’t very sportsmanship isn’t it and let me ask you a question Sir how many State and Regional High Power matches have you won. Everyone busted up over this and he ran out. That weekend this Jack Ass shot and wounded a very nice Bull and knocked down 3 Cows with one shot. Over penetration, BARNES BULLETS!

If and win I decide to hunt something like a Brown Bear or Water Buffalo, I just might use a Barnes bullet. For now, I’ll stick to my trusty bullet I’ve used now for 47 years, HORNADY!

Good enough for my Dad, good enough for me and my Grandson loves them!

Easy on the wallet too! YUK! YUK!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter

PS

You missed my point Sir :)

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

AlaskanExile,
I review everything before I post. I still say a Partition expands more than a Barnes and is better on a whitetail if you so choose. Why else from personal experience and Barnes/Nosler websites do they claim 95%+ weight retention for the Barnes and 70% for the Partition? Something has to give and it's not a thin bodied animal such as a whitetail. There are too many much more experienced writers/hunters who encounter a much longer track for their deer using a strong "premium' bullet.
Good hunting regardless, the season is approaching.

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from T.W. Davidson wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

All:

Last year in NE TX I took half a dozen or so wild pigs over a three-day period. One particular pig was a boar with several inches of chest and shoulder armor; the pig weighed around 250 lbs. I belly-crawled in the grass (and mud) for about 45 minutes until I was close to the shot angle I wanted. The boar was with a herd of about 20 other pigs in a farm field. The herd itself was about 35-40 yards from the swamp-forest it had come from.

I took a prone-position 50-yard angled heart-lung shot with my 257 AI. The bullet hit exactly where I wanted it to. This particular rifle didn't mind warm-to-hot loads, and so on this day I had it spitting out a Barnes TTSX 100-grain bullet at 3350 fps++.

Bullet impact instantly slammed the boar to the ground. For a couple of seconds I was vastly relieved . . . until that tough old boar somehow raised itself up on its front legs and "ran" straight into the swamp-forest. I searched for a very long time in the near inpenetrable swamp-forest. I finally found the boar only about 10-15 yards inside the perimeter of the swamp-forest. When I autopsied the boar, it had no lungs and no heart. Zero. The inside of the pig's chest cavity looked like a hand grenade or mortar round went off in there. The TTSX bullet, by my rough calculation, penetrated (at an angle) about 25-27" before exiting the far side of the boar. Tough bullet. Terrible internal damage. Incredibe penetration power.

In my mind, there is absolutely no way that boar should have moved an inch after getting slammed to the earth by the TTSX bullet and having its lungs and heart blown up by the copper bomb passing its chest cavity. And yet that tough old pig ran a good 50-60 yards before the "OFF" switch finally flipped somewhere deep in that pig's brain. I would not have thought it possible until I saw it with my own eyes.

(I know what I'm about to say here is controversial, but I switched to head shots after that. I only took head shots I was totally confident in. I nailed every head shot I took, at ranges from 30 yards to a little over 100 yards. Every head shot resulted in an instant struck-by-lightning kill. No chase. No search. JPD-Just Plain Dead.)

TWD

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Yo-Yo yuk yuk-
You would be well advised to stay in your different world, AKA The Land of the Trolls, because you sure can't make a popcorn fart's difference in the real world. Have a nice day!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Clay

I'm certainly not a .338 expert since I got rid of mine in 1989 after a brief and painful affair at the range. So I can't comment on the Barnes TSX .338 construction, although I think they are all the same homogenous copper slug.

What hit me on the way in this morning was your comment about "When a Barnes bullet passes thru, the real question is where is it going?". What is the issue with that? It is going the same place your Hornady is going if you miss the target. (yeah, I know you don't miss) So if pass through is a safety issue, why the heck are you using a high power rifle in the first place? Maybe you should be using a shotgun. If that area is not a firearm restiction zone, then maybe it should be!

Foremost rules in safety: Clearly identify your target and know where your backstop is. Never shoot at anything without a clearly apparent backstop to contain errant rounds.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

T.W. Davidson

Shot 300+ pounder boar down in Louisiana with my 30-06 with Hornady 130 grain Soft Points and it knocked it’s *ick in the dirt! As one said, looked like a grenade went off in the rib cage!

Until the brain has exhausted with oxygen, it’s going to keep on trucking! So shoulder shots just might be your only and was the only option you had.

Time and place for everything!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Hey yohan, have a great time!

I wish I Wuz Dar with your group, sounds like a blast like the good ol'times!

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

For to mention in my earlier post the deer was recovered, As far as shot placement goes I like both shoulder and behind the shoulder other than the whitetail never had a deer go far. As for bullets I love the Partion and still cant wait to give the Barnes a try.

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from KJ wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

For once I have to agree with Clay in my disdain for the neck shot. If you hit the spine it's instant death. If you miss the spine it's a wounded deer that you may or may not be able to track. And the spine isn't a very big target. The shoulder shot may not be infallible, but the heart/lungs are right behind the shoulder. Hit the heart/lungs and you've got venison.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

A +1 for you Sir yohan!

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from Walt Smith wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

I've had to track way more deer that were shot in the shoulder than I ever have with neck shot deer. I'm not saying its for everyone, and its probably a good thing most hunters don't try it. The ONLY time I use it is when the deer is within 50 yards and it is unpressured. Here in the swamps of Michigan where I hunt that is quite often.

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from shane wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

It really does just happen. Mysteriously. Deer are very very tough when they want to be. I'll cite my 3 full bore 12 gauge rifled slugs into the buck that wasn't having any part of it story. I even threw in a neck shot - heart/lung shots one and two weren't convincing, so I tried a different approach out of desperation. Looking back I would have put #3 right where the first two went. Luckily this is the only deer, gun or bow, that didn't croak with just one.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Dave Petzal,
I'm sorry but your response to Coop didn't make sense. How can a bullet open up without any resistance? Premium bullets are designed for premium game i.e. Large.
To bad Win, Rem, nor Hornady has gotten the message their bullets don't work no more.

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from Gunslinger wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Last year i shot a nice w-tail at 270 yds with a 06 using l80 gr Scirocos. Bullet entered his right shoulder, broke it,then got his inners and thru the left front leg and borke it as well. The deerws standing beside a 4 ft tsll fence, he jumped that fence and ran 60-70 yds thru the woods before he fell. The first animal I have had not to drop on the spot in many years. I cannot figure how the deer jumped the fence with 2 brojke legs and no lungs and run 60-70 yds . Apparently they run on stored energy in the brain, that they not gonna die.The same seson I kiled 2 other deer with the same gun/bullet and they fell at the spot. he lst 2 were frontal shots, which many hate. I like the frontal shot if in my range, as that bullet is gonna go thru his Vitals and maybe exit at the rear. I also killed a 9 pointer on a frontal shot with the B/P gun at l70 yds using Powerbelt 245 gr bullets, he dropped in his tracks. Shot placement is vital to a clean kill, but sometimes, the animal will just run on stored energy a short distance.Many experts have written, that the w-tail is one of the craftest animals to bring down and has more staying energy than any other big game. I prefer a side shot behind teh shoulder about l/2 way up if deer is walking, but standing still, I yet prefer the frontal shot in most cases. Shoot-um-straight and very often, as pratice does help. Once my hunting guns ae zero as i want, I go to the MArlin bolt 22 mag for pratice at different angles. Good hunting guys, hopefully the weather agrees with our hunts.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter

Sure got the fire burning on this one, LOL!

Like I said before, I've witnesed Moose taken with beter bang flops with 30-06 with over the counter 180 grain Remington Core-Lokt® than 300 Mgs with fancy high priced bullets. Yes bullet performance is great but It's all about "MOP"!

One more time,

ken.mcloud said it best!
“So, I think that the superior killing power of larger rounds is largely in our heads.(likely testosterone induced) A flat-shooting round that you can accurately place will produce as many if not more "bang-flop" kills as a heavy caliber round.”

Shot my Savage MZ with 45 cal 250 grain saboted yesterday cracking the 2700fps barrier!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

One of David’s pet loads !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWH3V6NUx7c&NR=1

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Yes Davis I too can say I’ve shot game from the 6 pound Jack Rabbits to Moose with my Hornady’s and they work fantastic!

As the old saying goes,

“If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it!”

One of the questions asked in my Hunter and Shooting Classes and on the Shooting Range is, what is the best cartridge and bullet choice. Doesn’t matter what you’re shooting, if you can’t hit “MOP” you might as well be shooting spit wads!

David I know you like your Rhino killing loads for deer & ELk, regardless what anyone says I’ll still be putting “Back Strap Steaks” on the breakfast table with my Hornady’s!

MMMM MMMMM MMMMMM GOOD!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Blowing the shoulder to smithereens sure makes a lot of hamburger out of the shoulder steaks not to count a big mess! A simple just behind the shoulder heart and lung shot will do and this gives you more room for windage error. But if you must anchor them on the spot I do take the shoulder shot. 4 years ago I shot a huge doe with my 25-06 with Nosler 120 grain Partitions loaded at 3000fps and it totally destroyed both sides of the shoulder and still ran 60 yards no farther than the rest. I was able to carefully avoiding sharp bones stick hand almost clear thru and yes I lost a lot of meat I did!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

By the way, that picture of Alex with his Buck was a lung shot bang flop at 250 yards and moments later shot his doe with a lung shot bang flop at 150 yards.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

One more thing

David I totally agree with you, we just have a different way of looking at it!

David Petzal (Elmer Keith) vs Clay Cooper (Jack O'Connor)

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from yohan wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Right On Clay !!

Unless its gonna bite back,.. or try to grind you into a course pesto sauce,..30 cal or there about,.. 150-200 grains out the pipe at 2500 to 3000 fps will cause one " H " of a lot of Bang flops.
Eception to this is 6.5 swede,..160 gr
long an fairly slow ,. but its like a little lighting bolt. Guys that I know in Norway ( well only two really )for a long time have and still do shoot moose with that.
But not from th enext zip code . Which in thier opinion is why ist calld hunting and not shooting.
Im on board with Rem core locs too.

As my ole man ( the balsitician & gunsmith)
used to say ,.
"Unless you have a habit of shooting from the next zip code "( which to him was anything much past 250 yds) "or your tryin ot shoot their tails off and scare em to death" yuk yuk.
"All you need is a 30-06 (or something close) that you can get most of the time,. to shoot where you point it "

He had more colorfull language relative to those who suppose,. they "need something on wheels with lanyard and muzzle break " to hunt any deer including moose elk and Carabou (what he called raindeer yuk yuk) But lets not get the magnum blasters all cranked on a Sundasy morning.
That said the idea of a big gun in bear country is not lost one me.

As slight testiment ( nothing to do with this being Sunday ) I watched ( stood right beside him in 73 or 74 )while the old boy dusted a nice w-tial at 300 + with a 30 -30. topped with a 2.5 power weaver.
After he made the shot he did say ,."This is really not he gun to do that with ,. but it was down hill enough,. that I didnt have to hold out of the "hair".
Anyone having done some shooting knows what thats about

That said ,.. for a long time for anything bigger than a white tail.
I would forth with, full of confidence , sally forth,. with my Mauser 8x57 stuffed with 170 gr Hornadys,..
Chrono-ed at a little over 2700 fps,. that did the job and then some.
II am abeliever in using enough bullet to smash bone if you need to.

However one medium sized moose,.which was no trophy
(yet still too big to arm wrestle), unless you consider moose steak a trophy which I do. Came to an abrupt halt due to his unfortunate intersection with 150 grain Hornady out of my 8x57 at about 70 paces.
(guessing 75-80 yds)
Just behind the shoulder and a tad high,.. not a bang flop,.. but bang,.. take a three or four steps and then flop,.. kick around for a short time and lights out.

Great sleep last night,. its turning into a lucky trip this time ,..
Stuck one this morning (medium sized doe ) 50 yds from camp, Just a bit of a late start,.. so moving more quickly than I thought prudent,.. slowed down ,. got more careful.
Some times you cant win,.. and sometimes you can't loose.

She was broadside head down feeding on acorns
Damp woods (path ) was open,.. soft bottom footware so little to no noise ,.. the hunting gods were with me.
Not much more than 12-14 yd shot ..she stumbld when the arrow hit, and I saw her go down ,.. fresh deer liver tonight.
Everyone else still out,.. I got some bacon goin and and a second pot of coffee on,.Later to day maybe hunt,. maybe fish ,. but first need to take the abuse I know
is coming later ,..yuk yuk

Uf-dah boys ,.. this turning into one good trip .

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from yohan wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Jim In Mo

I asked the same question around the fire last night.
As in,.. W T H are these guys drinking , laws of physics to my knowledge having not changed much since early 70's .. it was explained to me thusly .
TSX will open on light skinned game.(copper holow point) but have exceptional penitation properties.
Pretty cool .

Bet there are some women out there that would like to know more about these exceptional properties yuk yuk

The lead partition bullets (which is where I left off in my handloading endevors for bigger guns ) are apparntly and as I had previoulsy understood more heavily constructed as the bullet weight increases.

I know European hunters have been useing copper bullets in avariety of versions for some time and had good luck with them,. Especially on bigger tougher animals like Boar Stag moose .
Goodness gracious,..I must have been living under a rock cause this is first I hear of the magic TSX.
But what the "H" if it s a better mouse trap try it and use it if we want ,. if not stay with what we know works.

Think now manybe have to get another .338 role some loads and see what the TSX expansion and penetration factorr are on redwood trees,.. three layers of wet newspapaer ,susquaches and flat rock migets who wear 5 inch spike heal cowboy boots.and tote rifles longer ( and bigger ) than they are.

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from squirrelhunter7 wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

In SE Minnesota we have to use shotguns with sabots or slugs. The diameter of a sabot or slug is way bigger than a .338, but it can't reach out as far. Anything within 100 yds. is a dead deer in one shot.

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from Big O wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

AMEN ! Mr.Petzal AMEN !

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Yohan,
Good hearing from you, but none the less, if I'm using a bullet on a whitetail it'll be a softpoint or nothing stronger than a premium bullet in the Partition class.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Hmmm well for those so impaired :or universal experts
such as 30-oh -4 1/2" little man miester,.. apparently claiming title as
THE one and only universal expert on everythring every where ,. but especially within confines of a county or parish where there aint no God and the internet is for sissys.. yuk yuk
(has the cactus juice or the worm at the bottom of the bottle begun to take its tole.)

So OK ~.
Boar-( not boreing like yourself although I do find this mildy entertaining ) as in wild pig
(big mean sons of B!T@hes ) Lot of em in France or were .IE: roots (no pun ) in Russia
Found in the forests of central east and southern Europe & of course what used to be Russia

Moose- or (if you will) "Elg" = Norwegian for moose.
Found in the forests of Scandanavia (and other venues)
Same as our moose here.

Stag ( ie red deer ) - A deer also found in Europe closer to the size of our elk.

And a bonus for you
Shami - also a deer found in the mountains of Germany
Hunted by U.S. citizens only with the assistance of Yeager Miesters (Hunt Masters) ,. and only after they have consumed at least a liter of scnapps the night before on your ticket.

Now,. most people could figure that out ,. still my punctuation is as you say not perfect . Thusly,. so as not to be any part of the cause for your midget head to explode trying to codgitate that one ,,. I offer the above explanation.

Would suggest you go there ,. check it out ,..
Then again,. if you went to Norway you would need stilts just to start sniffing the women ,..
Plus having been there I know the people,. and the likley hood is very high, they would have the same aversion to you and your "ilk" (not elk) that I do.
Land of the midnight sun Vikings etc ,..
sooner ot later get your loud mouth little texas butt kicked all over. Maybe even use you for dwarf tossing contest. So that probably not the best idea either,.
Cause once they figiured out what you actually are ,. they would be honor bound to do some of what is refered to here in the US as B!t@H slapping.
After which they would very likley toss you in fjord or use you to stir a martini. YUK YUK

Oh ya,.. and the bridge I live under?
Is not a tricked out doublewide complete with indoor plumbing and roll out beds,..velvit paintings of elvis, dogs playing cards and tiger stripped curtains.
Which is what your profie indicates yuk yuk

Being honest with the diviorce had to down size but "the brige" I live under,. is still north of 500k even in this market.

Any further questions please feel free to post ,.. happy to help bring the world to the narrow minded universal experts in Texas.

.
Is it true little guys ( all over ) but especialy in Taxas drive pickups so jacked up they need little ladders to get in em and blocks on the peddles to operate ??? My shrink friend thinks, like most samll guys just chalk it up to small man (PP) complex

Oh,.. an one last thing sir ,.. I have two aquaintences and one life long friend from Texas ,.. My friend moved to the midwest when we were both just tad poles ,. but he's a Texan his mind and always will be which is fine by me
This ole boy is the salt of the earth,as are the other
two .. and they aint stupid neither. The four of us killed a whoooole lotta rabbits when we were young.
A good time was had by all and nary a cross word spoken.
So how is it the great state of Texas tolerates pi$$y little universal experts like youself. YUK YUK

Now,.. I gotta talk to a MAN,. before I go out fishing.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

jIM from MO

No argument from me about bullets ,.. truth is unless your shooting from one zip code to the other ( and maybe not then ) dont see the need for anything more than good softpoint bullet,..that is heavy enough ( have seen real ligt ones blow up an make a mess)

Biggest deer I ever took dressed out just over 215 lbs
we got him on scale 4 days after he was shot .so on the hoof likley over 250

At about 50 yds put one,. 150 gr rem core loc
30-30 behind the shoulder ,..1/2 way up .
He bolted and piled up 40 paces from where he was hit .

As i say no argument here

Have good week

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

AlaskanExile

First and foremost, thank you for your service to our nation. You and all those who serve are our true American heroes. The guys and gals who lace up their boots tight and go out there day after day are the real heroes, not the chest thumping politicians and buffoons in D.C.

To your last post: "Confucius Say: Man who say "It cannot be done" should not interrupt man doing it..."

"If you haven't shot any game with Barnes X bullets, you should probably withhold judgement until you have some first-hand experience. Otherwise; you risk looking like you don't know what you are talking (posting) about."

I say well put! Stay safe and good hunting.

Best regards,
WMH

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

There is a darn good reason why I don’t use Barnes bullets and find there isn’t anything I know of requiring the ability to punch thru 1” plate steel! The areas I hunt ricochets are my prime concern and because of this Barnes Bullets are eliminated from my choice to use.

So here we go!

Barnes Bullets

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYOH_p9KLwQ&feature=player_embedded

VERSUS!

The Berger VLD - Best Long Range Hunting Bullet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voyw1H-0CBI&feature=player_embedded

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

I have never had a critter go more than 10ft after a shoulder shot, I have how ever wittnesed a will to live one a whitetail doe I shot 2yrs ago I hit her a little low but still took out bottom half of heart and lungs opened up her chest most of the insides were outside and the damn thing still went 1/4 mile not something I am proud of. On the Barnes I have not yet to shoot anything with them but I have 235 grain loaded in my 375H&H and cant wait to pull the trigger on a deer or elk with it. Afriend of mine uses the same bullet in his 375 and gets a elk every year and says they only go one way and tthats down as if electricuted. To everybody out there good luck this season and stay safe.

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Mnt Hunter hope you have a good trip to Col and good luck let me know how the 7mm works for you.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter

You got it!

Barnes Bullets are a fantastic bullet, there not fitted where I hunt and what I do. The area I hunt deer is more of a pest control than hunting. There is a house nearby where a teenager shot a 3x4 and the slug hit the base of his neighbor’s house and before anyone says anything, your right, he shouldn’t have taken the shot to begin with and this is my point of over penetration!

There is a place and time for everything!

Besides, I’ve always been on a budget and don’t have the deep pockets to be going out and buying bullets a DO$$AR a pop!

I always like to get quality shooting time, not broke and sitting at home!

Got some pics on the Savage MZ, ain’t your Daddies MZ!! Checkem out!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

By the way I'm glad Barnes TSX shoots your rifle! When you go for the BIG ONE, your ready to rock and role knowing all the bugs have been worked out!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Hey, I have a shelf full of Hornady bullets for my .308, .257, and .358 caliber rifles for handloading. Also some Core Lokts I bought in bulk before eBay quit listing bullets. I just had a disappointing experience with the 7mm Interbond, but maybe my rifle just didn't like them at 3,200 fps. The Tipped TSX is about $.70 a pop. That's why I mostly shoot Hornady and Speer bullets at everything but elk. Usually, I switch to a .257 Roberts or '06 after the elk hunt is over.

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from muskiemaster wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

just two days ago I shot a doe near, dark and couldn't quite see my shot placement this was with a 30-30, so I got her to stop and shot again this bullet struck the spine. The hole that was in that back was unimaginable to me from a smaller caliber bullet like that it was probably as wide around as my palm.

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from SAND BAGGER wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter

Over at Sand Baggers showing off my new Savage. I think I got the boy hooked!

Clay

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Got thinking, David 338 with a 225-grain Barnes TSX bullet at 2,750 fps?

Light load?

Got thinking, David 338 with a 225-grain Barnes TSX bullet at 2,750 fps?
Light loaded 338 I say.

Hey David, want to barrow my Savage MZ, it pushes a 45 cal 250 at 2800!

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from yohan wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Ok little 04 1/2 " man
Wits ?? acuity ?? mental or otherwise ,. you just can't pi$$ high enough boy.
Obviously you don't ( and likely won't ) realize,
your now and have been on the defensive ,.. and so with that,.
I'm bored with you now.
It was too easy really ,.. then again I'm from a diferent world ,. guys like you get chewed up bad and fast where I come from.

So yall have a nice day too,. take a break ,.. get your blood presssure back down
I'll rattle your cage or your mental acuity ? when I get bored with being bored ,..YUK YUK

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Hey yohan

Went over to Ol'SAND BAGGERs place today and has a pretty good selection even David would drool over, a Damascus 12 Gauge in mint condition.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Perhaps the reason for "Nuclear Tipped" bullets; there are those who had child hoods like this

http://moshland.com/wp-content/gallery/humor/evileasterbunny.jpg

Or they just feel viciously sadistic!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

One more thing, the Nosler Partition 338 diameter 210 grain is the favorite and #1 choice by Alaska Guides for that caliber. GO FIGURE!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter

Even if I did miss, my Hornady’s will not go zinging off like a full metal jacketed bullet. That is why I use my 22-250 and 25-06 in these areas. Besides what anyone has and will say I have had total satisfaction with the same results as with any Premium Bullet by putting “BACKSTRAP” on the breakfast table. Like I said as the saying goes, IF IT ISN’T BROKE, DON”T FIX IT! When I shot my Moose with my 338 Win Mag with 225 grain Hornady Soft Point it dropped it in its tracks without a kick! Only mistake I made it was on the other side of a bellybutton deep creek in September 8, 1989 in Alaska. Had to wade across with a rope and talk about cold water, YOW!!! Halfway across I noticed a beaver dam I could have walk across.

One more thing, one of the Masters at a High Power Match loaned some ammo to a friend not thinking if he had to reshoot a portion of the match for a range alibi. The range alibi did happen and I loaned him 20 rounds of Hornady 168 Match. Right off the bat he noticed better performance and asked if he can snitch another 22 rounds for the 600 yard line. It was the best loading he ever shot, but because of peer pressure he went back to shooting Sierras with 41.2 grains of IMR4895, the only difference with my load was the bullet so go figure.

I don’t give into peer pressure and because of that when things do go wrong which has happened at many of times, I’m one of the few still able and standing!

Bottom Line

If you have the results you want and you can hit “MOP” and put “BACKSTRAP” on the table, use it!

I don’t have deep pockets and Barnes costing double if not triple sure cuts down on quality trigger time. The loads I use double as both Varmint and Deer loads.
I have loaded a many Barnes before and achieved excellent results.

By the way, my new Savage MZ is one real HOSS! Hell on scopes!

One more thing, DAVID CHILLOUT BRO’! Shoulder shots are the way to go on Elk and larger game especially if they are going to have you for LUNCH!

Besides, I enjoy Bow Hunting the best!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

in⋅fal⋅li⋅ble  /ɪnˈfæləbəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation

[in-fal-uh-buhl]

–adjective 1. absolutely trustworthy or sure: an infallible rule.

2. unfailing in effectiveness or operation; certain: an infallible remedy.

3. not fallible; exempt from liability to error, as persons, their judgment, or pronouncements: an infallible principle.

4. Roman Catholic Church. immune from fallacy or liability to error in expounding matters of faith or morals by virtue of the promise made by Christ to the Church.

And they still hade to track his Moose for over a mile after being shot with a 225 grain Barnes in the shoulder.

Nothings 100%!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Even Rush Limbaugh admits he isn’t right 100% of the time, damn if you do and damn if you don’t!

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from 788Ham wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

4 rounds with a .338, to kill a deer? Whoa son!! If you reload those cartridges, let me share something that might help. Wrap the bullets with about 4 wraps of butcher paper before inserting into the charged case, then when you shoot the poor SOB, it will be wrapped and waiting for you when you get up to him! My grandpa and Pop have shot many deer with a .250 Savage, IN THE NECK, all fatal where they dropped. A lot of guys out in the woods are totally over-gunned, sounds like this might be the case here too!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

The problem of using a 338 diameter Barnes bullet on deer is its design is too heavy, in other words, deer doesn’t have sufficient mass for Barnes to work right.

That is why I use Hornady!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

338 Win Mag

Hornady 225 grain Soft Point

IMR4350 71 Grains

3000FPS!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Max load for my Savage Muzzle loader

45 cal 250 grain

IMR4198 75 grains

2800fps!

Not your dads MZ!

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from yohan wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

YUK YUK !!

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from yohan wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Gotcha again somemore little man :)

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Isn’t this one of David’s Girl friends?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3A7J898wgs&NR=1

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Clay,

I have to disagree with you on the fact that you yourself admit that you have never used a Barnes bullet. You can take all those Berger VLD Range Monkeys down to the 1,000 yard line for some giggles.

WMH

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Old yo-yo yuk-yuk is out from under his rock again! He who spreads bulls##t like butter and never heard of spelling or punctuation. Still didn't explain what a Boar Stag moose is, but I reckon that is a critter that inhabits the Land of the Trolls. Probably could be killed with a .338 Win Mag. Anyway, Yo yo, beware the Midget with a rifle bigger than he is. He probably can shoot it well, or he wouldn't be carrying the heavy SOB. More than likely, he is a helluva lot smarter than you are, because he is toting a big rifle, not a little ladies' gun. He may be small in stature, but his mental acuity makes up for it, as evidenced by the fact that you are getting into a battle of wits, for which you have no ammunition. And, he is just of the right size to head-butt you in your #9 bird shot sized nuts! Have a Nice Day!

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from SAND BAGGER wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

David the Barnes bullet is dangerous for the application where I hunt. So I’m not as you put “dead wrong”, you’re just DANGEROUS! Perhaps where you hunt is isolated and shooting a howitzer over a ridge would fall harmlessly.

When a Barnes bullet passes thru, the real question is where is it going?

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from yohan wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Clay,..
just peeked in here ,..only two days left then I gotta go home,. and I do not flipping wanna !!

Not following about sand bagger and demascuss shot gun. David drooling ?
Maybe give me a few days
Im gonna put computer away (done messing with the little man from texas,.. for now,. yuk yuk )
Gonna hit it harder ( hunt nore ) next couple days
So try to catch catch up on different ( later ) post

My buddy got a really nice Musky this AM not to mention the lucky son of a gun, stuck a nice 8 pt last night ,..
Not big rack but a big body and still plenty fat.
Full of acorn mash too ,.. so that one gonna eat good YUK YUK
Made my day ( week ) he's had a tough run lately on more than one front.

Tell ya what,..
its so damn much fun this time ,hope this is not the Lord saying "ok you guys".
"This is it ,. you get one more good one then you gotta go ",.. YUK YUK

Have a good week !!

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from thuroy wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

over gunned is better than under gunned.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Listen Fellas, I didn’t want to turn this into a who is right or wrong fight. David is right as I said “Even Rush Limbaugh admits he isn’t right 100% of the time, damn if you do and damn if you don’t I say! David Petzal is good, DARN GOOD and knows his stuff and I respect that! But I have to say I’ve witnessed this time and time again knowing there isn’t anything 100% when taking that shot!!

As a avid hunter practically hunting places only others dream of hunting such as Military Land in areas even restricted to Military Personnel and a solid 4 years in Alaska, my view point’s will differ from time to time with the "Honorable Sir David Petzal".

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Instead of, “Petzal: The "Infallible" Shoulder Shot”

Should have been

“Petzal: The "Infallible" mystery twig that ruined your Shot!”

Got off a shot at an old doe late yesterday evening at 47 yards, but that "Infallible" mystery twig ruined my Shot!”

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

What Clay missed? Must be human after all, went whitetail huntin the other day and saw one hell of a nice muley at 50 yards and had to let him walk dang doe tag well maybe next year have a good season everybody.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

788Ham
Even Deer Hunting with a 50 BMG isn’t an “Infallible" “BANG FLOP”!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi8gFJPWHcw&NR=1

______________________________________

idduckhntr

You finally figured it out? LOL!

A +1 for you!

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from 788Ham wrote 4 years 27 weeks ago

Clay,
Take a look at the video again, looks like he gut shot him, look behind the rear of the scope, butt of stock. Any animal will not "BANG FLOP" with that kind of shot. Ethical? LOL

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 26 weeks ago

788Ham
I’ve shot allot of game at that range and it sure looks like it you just maybe right. It also looks like they have aleady gutted it but it sure acted like it was center punched I call it.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 26 weeks ago

Well’ Alex my 10 year old Grandson did it again, shot a small doe yesterday on the run at 50 yards using the “David Petzal: The "Infallible" Shoulder Shot”! Yep’ 50 yards and ran 50 yards and notice the exit hole.
Knight Wolverine topped with a Tasco Red Dot, 250 Grain 45 cal Hornady XTP with 110 grains of 777! What the real kicker is this kid never shot the rifle, GO FIGURE!

I bet David is impressed over this one!

Picture taken

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from Tim Platt wrote 4 years 26 weeks ago

Glad to see Yohan back and in his usual take no prisoners mindset. I don't like the shoulder shot but I shoot thinskinned 120 pound field dressed deer. I am always very close to my quarry too so a shot behind the shoulder is no problem and has always produced the best results in my neck of the woods... they fall down right now, and don't get up. Cheaper soft point bullets also seem to work better, and the 100 year old cartridges are my favorite. I have a feeling that is why they have survived as the newer, faster, better inventions fail. 7X57 and 30-06 kill far better than the books and science would lead one to believe.

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from Tim Platt wrote 4 years 26 weeks ago

Yohan what about the Dow over 10,000? I swear to f-ing God I am seriously thinking about pulling everything out and buying land. Am I crazy? My wife thinks so, I just need some sort of confirmation. I think it is ready to bottom out again after the stimulus money is gone... been a long time I miss you guys.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 26 weeks ago

My Brother sent me a picture of a doe he shot with his Savage Muzzle Loader. Shot it just behind the shoulder a heart and lung shot. On the exit side the bullet blew out a third of the rib cage with the stomach and part of the intestines coming out intact. He’s shooting the 45 cal 300 grain TC Shockwave out around 2500fps. About 20 minutes later a wild pit-bull showed up and started growling at him and the rest is history!

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from dangerous game wrote 4 years 21 weeks ago

Hey guys, i'm wondering if i'm alone thinking maybe this deer had its adrenaline pumping from something else before the shot, like a cougar. Oh and think about their name (MULE) deer they are as stubborn as mules at going down,and a 338 loses alot of punch over 200 yards.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 26 weeks ago

Ralph ,.Im back about day and the S#it has been hitting the fan so just got a chance to look in here
Thought you got swept away by the stock faries. YUK YUK

Unfortunatly as a savvy dude you of course realize I can not advise you specifically .
No formal relationship ,. no risk profile etc etc .Plus your a Republican yujk yuk

However generally speaking ( which is what we do in here) as is normally the case the markets are a leading edge of an economy moving away from recession.
There are also indications ( expectastions )
of more job loss and increasd forclosure rates
But in some areas housing is begining a recovery.
Still the next wave of adjusteable mortgages is also about to reset ,.. which in general is proabably not good.

Speaking in general terms ,. none of this bothers me a great deal except the appraent change or possibly the recent but longstanding uncoverd attitude ,. of the big banks.
Which in my opinion now are a blight on the economy.
Or put anothet way no better than udal robber barons
or ( Howdy Duty and the Hunter ) Bush / chaine

Meaning that they made big mistakes by taking big risk. Big risk (gambles) also in some cases result in big profits (Trading profits)
Big profits are cause ( I hear ) to pay the apparent talent,.. huge bonuses,. and I mean huge .
I am less than small potatoes compared to those guys and while I cant prove it.
Thispresent buisness mind set by banks in my humble opinion extracts money from the economy and creates no general wealth or economic strength other than for a few at the top of the ( food ) money chain.
And I will (as ole Justin Wilson says) GARONTEE there aint many liberals in that bunch,.. even concervative librals like me .

I think we have created an additional monster in that the banks and brokerage houses that were bailed out with TARP funds. Having repayed them or not are now fighting the very legislation ( regulation) that would prevent it from happening again.
Take it another step mentally ,. and these people are esentially trying to make it leagal to be outside the law and by any moral standards assured a penthouse in H@ll,..
Because the money that bailed em out ( tax payer money ) is the money they now trying to extract from the economy ( fancy way to say steal ) by gigantic profit and bouns structure .

Gigantic profit comes in part with no small risk and with risk there come losses,. in order to stay profitable how do we offset losses ?
Why just ask the insurance coimpanies. Pass the losses on to the consumer ( increases fees and rates )strangling those whos money ( blood) the banks and insurnace companies feed on
with the profit and bonuses to "the talent "

That said again while i cannot advise you I have begun to move back in .But I saw the crap coming and was out 90% by dec 2007,..I am however going in carefully, Because I just dont know if there is a next shoe to drop.
Menatlly I think we are on a path to recovery ,. but somehting is nagging me so Im gonna be carefull.

On the flip side bank stock )( regional bank stock ) that I baught at 15 is now 7-8
which was offset by buying twice as much when it was 4 .
So while I was viewed by some as nuts in the months preceeding 2008 Im not now,.. and by some of those same people looked upon as something of a gue rue ,. which i am also NOT
what I am is a no nonsence ( if its too dam good to be true it probabaly isnt true mindset)with the understanding all markets cycle. which the credit loss swap bone heads chose to , and were allowed to ingore.

We are put in a position by a republican congress in demcratic ( well almost democratic ) administration 1999-2000 that deregulated lending which let the monster off the chain and allowed risk taking unpresedented in the history of civilization .
By who? banks and brokers ,. thats who,. who are now trying to keep the same doors open .
I will here say this again ,. in my opinion for people like Madooff and others of his ilk who simply steal generations of money we should institute the death penalty. If a few guys on top and out of reach of normal law get hung, shot gased or stoned to death.
we would have fewer of these problems.

Aside from that Ralph if we don't drop into another hole
caused ( dug ) by the same people doing he same things In my humble opinion we might make it throug this ,. but it is gonna hurt a lot of people unecesarily .
Which for some,. might be food for thought leading to a hold mentality. But also because my first buinsess endevors were in Real Estate and to some extent still are today I like having a foot on both sides of that fence.

Went hunting again,.. got a good bear story from last Sunday but gotta get some sleep now

Best regards

Meaning

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from yohan wrote 4 years 26 weeks ago

Clay,.. Mystery twig YUK YUK !!
I like it,.. every now an then,.. it is
just a damn mystery

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from Walt Smith wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

The lesson that should have been learned here is that some animals have a greater "will to live" than other animals. Just as some humans have a greater "will to live" than other humans. This is also why I prefer the neck shot which will anchor any game as long as its placed correctly.

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