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## Discussion Topic: On Concealed Carry Without A Permit

### Field Notes in your Inbox

March 29, 2010

Discussion Topic: On Concealed Carry Without A Permit

By Dave Hurteau

From The Arizona Republic:

The Arizona House has given preliminary approval to legislation that would make Arizona the third state in the nation to allow adults to carry concealed guns without permits…. Rep. David Gowan, R-Sierra Vista, said the measure expands the liberty of Arizonans and supports the Second Amendment.

"If you are a law-abiding citizen, you ought to have the right to carry as a law-abiding citizen," he said….

Rep. Chad Campbell, D-Phoenix, said he is a lifelong gun owner, but he opposes the measure. Arizona's concealed-weapons permit program "is a great program that helps both citizens carry a concealed weapon and law enforcement discern who might be carrying a weapon," he said.

"If a person is not willing to go to an eight-hour class, get some skills training and pay a small fine, I'm not sure I want that person carrying a concealed weapon in this state," Campbell added.

Top Rated
from jcarlin wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

Undecided. Not sure about having to pay fees to carry, even though I pay one myself. I don't have to pay one to vote. On the one hand, a local bureaucrat having the ability to deny me that right bothers me. On the other hand, the process very clearly prevents a convicted felon from legally carrying concealed. If the permit process serves the purpose of being that clearing house, that's ok by me. Without the permit process, how does one decide who is a "law-abiding citizen", or even if they qualify as such?

+7 Good Comment? | | Report
from blackdawgz wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

I am a law-abiding citizen, and I have a concealed carry permit.

It is unconstitutional and an infringement of my 2nd Amendment right to bear arms.

It is just another tax.

Criminals carry concealed anyway.

It is just another law to break.

As our Congress serves by example that our country is headed into lawlessness, and the citizenry follows suit, the day is coming when it would be a mistake to leave home without it.

+9 Good Comment? | | Report
from deerstalker wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

I think this a good idea, but I also think that they should require the class for people to get some skills training. As for the part about the program making people register so Law enforcement can discern who has a weapon..I am kind of torn. I think (b/c I want to work in law enforcement) that allowing officers to know who has a weapon is good, but I also don't like the idea of officers finding that info out and calling in more officers as backup to a situation which could set some people off.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

CCLs are just another way for the government to collect more revenue and exercise more control. Criminals will not bother to go through a permitting process, nor honor the requirements and conditions. By a strict interpretation of the Second Amendment, any infringement on the right to keep and bear arms is unconstitutional. The requirement for a permit is an infringement, as that makes an otherwise law abiding citizen a criminal if he exercises his rights without benefit of government permission. Another disturbing aspect of the CCL is the fact that it is a backdoor gun registration scheme, as the State keeps careful records of who is licensed. I am disturbed, but not surprised, that Rep. Chad Campbell, D-Phoenix, refers to the concealed weapon permit as "a small fine." It reflects that the attitude of our lawmakers is that keeping and bearing arms, and thus, the basic right to self protection, is a privilege to be bought, instead of a constitutional guarantee.

+9 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jeff Bowers wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

My basic objection is why there's so much money involved in what should be a simple thing.

Here in NC, you have to take a class, which runs about $80-$100, depending on time and location. Then the $75 to the county for the application. I do object to the courses being manditory, but that's my personal thought, since I have a few Marine Pistol Expert badges. I have figured out which end of a pistol is the dangerous one. It just seems a reason to milk money from people somehow. +6 Good Comment? | | Report from Walt Smith wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I agree, The current system is just a way to milk money from honest tax payers and law abiding citizens. Crooks are going to conceal weapons regardless. Allowing everyone to carry will make crooks think 3 or 4 times before they try to comit a crime. +7 Good Comment? | | Report from spartan88 wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I have always thought the 2nd amendment is all you should need to carry. +8 Good Comment? | | Report from jamesti wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago funny how he called it a "fine" instead of a fee. the whole thing is just more gov. control. +6 Good Comment? | | Report from BowtechWVU wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago The article shows good representation of gun owner laws and being able to see the consealed weapon. +3 Good Comment? | | Report from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I agree with the unconstituionality of CCW permits, laws, etc. If I am entitled to bear arms as a law abiding citizen, why do I need a permit to show that I am in compliance with all laws? (ex.: not a convicted felon, not in a prohibited class, etc.) Whatever happened to burden of proof of guilt? However, I will maintain my CCW permit until such time as the machine says I don't need it. No way am I going to get booked on a felony firearms charge and lose ALL my gun ownership rights. I don't need a permit to carry a shotgun or an AR, but I could be prohibited from either with a firearm violation. If these issues concern you and you don't belong to the NRA or 2nd Amendment Foundation, you should consider joining them AND you local carry support groups. JMO +5 Good Comment? | | Report from seadog wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I agree with the general sentiment of the comments. I've always argued that CC laws violate the 2nd Amendment--as CRM pointed out. The need for a permit is an infringement on my right to bear arms. So is the requirement to conceal. I have a CC permit and most of the time I would probably choose to carry concealed rather than open (to avoid making myself an obvious target). But that should be MY choice, not the state's. Spartan88 said it well--the Second Amendment should be all you need. +3 Good Comment? | | Report from Cgull wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago The more states that alow conceled carry without permit the better. If every crook / felon thinks that everyone is packing he will think twice before robbing or mugging again. Crooks carry, why cant we? +5 Good Comment? | | Report from Amflyer wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I for one don't mind. They may be a pain to maintain and cost a bit, but It's nice to at least have Tom, Bob, or Sue have to get some training to figure out what it's all about. Government, by its nature, is willfully (there's the sticker, isn't it?) giving up some of your natural rights to enjoy the benefits of public service. So I don't have a big problem with taking a class, paying a fine, if it keeps a few well-meaning but clueless individuals from strapping it on and heading out. Yeah, it sucks that you have to pay for the license, but compared to the weapon, holster, ammo it's really not that much of a deal. +2 Good Comment? | | Report from jamesti wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago well said mtn huinter +3 Good Comment? | | Report from jjas wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I don't have a problem w/people needing a license to carry. I do have a problem w/it being so expensive and time consuming to accomplish. Many states don't require any training and others require a ridiculous amount. As usual, I think the answer lies in the middle. Seems to me that if a person wants to carry they'll learn how to operate a firearm. I use to be a big proponet of range training, but in reality, most people will forget all they've learned from a one time class. Especially since these are skills they will rarely (if ever use). I think it's up to the individual to be responsible enough to learn how to use a gun. But.....if they wish to carry, I think they need to learn the states laws about what is legal and what isn't when it comes to the use or brandishment of that firearm and pass a test. Prison time and lawyer bills are a heck of an expensive lesson to learn because of ignorance of the laws. +3 Good Comment? | | Report from Sarge01 wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I don't have a problem with the training class. I know a lot of guys that want their wife to have a CC permit to protect them, but they don't know which end of the gun the bullet comes from. I think for their sake and maybe prevent another negligent shooting the class is a small price to pay. People tend to forget that people don't know everything there is to know about a firearm the day they are born. +3 Good Comment? | | Report from mutt wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I would say that there has to be some training or proof that you know how to use that firearm. +1 Good Comment? | | Report from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago It's a good idea after all criminals have always done it ! 0 Good Comment? | | Report from seadog wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago The best argument I've heard for permits of any kind is safety training. It's not enough to make me agree that my rights should be restricted by the need for a permit, but it is enough to make me accept a permit requirement that includes safety training as a less restrictive alternative to having no carry rights at all. +2 Good Comment? | | Report from jbird wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I don't have a problem w/needing a permit, or safety class. I just think they should both be free. +2 Good Comment? | | Report from spartan88 wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago What would happen if all of the law abiding citizens decided to not renew their CCW and still carried what ever they wanted however they wanted. Including any knife. Then when questioned by the government just pull you pocket sized bill of rights out of your back pocket? Seriously, if everyone who believes in the Bill of Rights did this we would win. We couldn't all be prosecuted. Just me because I posted this "ludicrous" idea online. +3 Good Comment? | | Report from spartan88 wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago Yes I agree in safety training but paying hundreds of dollars to get a CCW is stupid. As is paying to renew it. It is also stupid that some states/cities don't allow CCW. It was wrong when the old west outlawed guns in cities and it is wrong now. +1 Good Comment? | | Report from shane wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago "helps...law enforcement discern who might be carrying a weapon" Why does law enforcement have to know which law abiding citizens have a weapon? "pay a small fine" He refers to the payment for getting a permit as a fine? Life time gun owner? I don't know what I think of this guy... +2 Good Comment? | | Report from logan.vandermay wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago ccw permits are joke and should not be needed. A criminal is a criminal whether or not these laws are in place. Why should law enforcement officers have the right to know who owns or carries. If you are doing things legal it is none of their business. Every citizen should be able to carry and have to answer to noone. Spartan 88 had a great idea, everyone should just carry and they can't put us all away. One other thing, if you want your wife to carry, why not teach her yourself instead of making someone take a course. You could still have a course as an elective for people who wanted to take it without makeing it a regulation. +2 Good Comment? | | Report from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago Would u want people driving withouth minimum training and license?? no, cos a car driven by someone inept could kill u, your loved ones or friends.. its just a dang license, and u shouldnt need to redo it or pay more to keep it if u went through the trainingcourse offcourse, but everyone should still get the course cos guns kills. handguns r meant for people. dont u want to know that people with guns have a minimum safety course first so they dont kill anyone by accident cos they dont know what a safety is??? seriously.... 0 Good Comment? | | Report from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago Would u want people driving withouth minimum training and license?? no, cos a car driven by someone inept could kill u, your loved ones or friends.. its just a dang license, and u shouldnt need to redo it or pay more to keep it if u went through the trainingcourse offcourse, but everyone should still get the course cos guns kills. handguns r meant for people. dont u want to know that people with guns have a minimum safety course first so they dont kill anyone by accident cos they dont know what a safety is??? seriously.... 0 Good Comment? | | Report from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago And how the heck r police gonna manage to differentiate between legal carry and illegal if there is no paperwork whatsoever???? unlicensed u r in the same bulk of the criminals.. every time.. if there is no legal difference even criminals gets to keep theire weapons, that u know is gonna be used for ill, just cos your all uptight of any guncontrol anywhere.. ever... (tripple facepalm) :P 0 Good Comment? | | Report from WesMcCormick wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I agree with both sides, I wish we'd all go to open carry, that way there would be alot less doubt as to who's carrying and who aint. Just one mans opinion +1 Good Comment? | | Report from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I'm not sure that requiring a CCW to carry a concealed weapon violates the 2nd Amendment. In AZ, anyone can carry openly, which seems to allow any citizen the unrestrained right to bear arms. I'm not sure how I feel about the proposed change, since I live in AZ. I suspect it will remove a tool that the police use to stop and shake down gang-bangers (who on the whole don't have CCW permits but often carry concealed firearms). And anything that allows the police to harass, detain, or charge gang-bangers with crimes, or increase the prison terms they serve, is outstanding as far as I'm concerned. It's easy enough to get a CCW permit in AZ. The classes are inexpensive..$70-$80, and the permit fee is$60. So, in my view, he cost schedules and requirements do not impose any significant barrier to exercise the right or privilege (depending on your view) to carry a concealed firearm.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from spartan88 wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

ingebrigtsen- driving is not a right given by the bill of rights. One can argue their weren't cars so it is stupid for me to bring this up. But......no rights were given for riding horses. Also, have you seen what you have to do to get a drivers license? It doesn't mean your a good driver.

While on 2nd amendment rights. Banning automatic weapons annoys me. I am a supporter in not hunting with them, but if a war broke out I would want one. It IS violating my rights by banning them.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

horsed rive themselves. and we r talking about possibly harmfull to other peoples activities here. seems fair to have some minimum training with them.

-3 Good Comment? | | Report
from JMaag wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

"And how the heck r police gonna manage to differentiate between legal carry and illegal if there is no paperwork whatsoever???? unlicensed u r in the same bulk of the criminals.. every time.."

It's very simple. If you are contacted by the police, and you have a gun and a felony conviction, you are going to jail. If you are contacted by the police, you let them know you are armed and licensed, you have no criminal history, you are compliant, and you allow the officer to hold the gun while he does his business, there won't be a problem.
However, given the present CCW laws, yes; if you carry a gun without procuring the necessary training and licensing for it, you lump yourself with felons; because by the letter of the law, you are one.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

One thing to bear in mind. Most of your western states have a pretty good head about this whole thing. However, if you so much as brandish a firearm, permit or not, in a state that doesn't have legislation like castle doctrine. Right or wrong-You are going to be arrested and you're going to need a good lawyer to prove some very sticky criteria for self defense.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from njones wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

the most important reason for a permit to be required is so that background checks,etc are performed on the carrier. lessens the chance of a felon "legally" carrying.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from spartan88 wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

But to own a handgun you already undergo the background checks. I live on a tight budget. I will be breaking bank when I buy my hand gun. And will have to save again to buy the permit. It sucks.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from shotgunlou wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

The permit is just a way to regulate who is carrying concealed and is kinda dumb. One of the most important things I took away from taking the class to get my CCW though was that while I may sometimes feel justified in busting a cap in someones ass the law doesnt neccessarily agree. So in order to keep otherwise law abiding citizens out of prison for shooting someone when it wasn't LEGALLLY justified I think the class is a great idea. The class helped me know when I was justified and when I need to have some common sense and walk away. Also where I could and couldnt carry my weapon. I would like to do away with the permit though.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from spartan88 wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

I would take the class just so I would be well informed. It just is annoying how expensive everything is.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mike Plotner wrote 4 years 1 week ago

cant you open carry with out a permit? that whould be interesting walking down franklin steet in richwood (ohio) with a 12 gga. he he he he

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from spartan88 wrote 4 years 1 week ago

I believe it is illegal to open carry in some states. Including Texas!?!?!?!??

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ramseysc wrote 4 years 1 week ago

I see both sides of the debate on this one. I, for one, do not think that requiring a concealed carry permit is an infringement of the right to bear arms. It doesn't prohibit carrying arms, or even carrying concealed, it just requires extra measures be taken if someone wants to get one. I do agree with the fact that in many states the fees are borderline extortion, but I think the permit itself makes sense for a few reasons. The first being that I know a lot of people who are interested in buying a gun to "You know, keep in my purse on the way back from the bar." After immediately explaining to the person why this is a terrible idea for so many reasons, it makes me realize that a lot of people that aren't as gun savvy as those who frequent this site need the proper training before they run around with pistols stuck in their belt lines. Another point is that it can help with police safety. I'm not sure how it works in other states, but in Virginia a permit is required if someone is going to keep a firearm within reach while operating a vehicle. This allows for police to know when approaching a vehicle (it shows up on hte record when the car is pulled over) and allows the police to be more cognizant of the potential danger. Just food for thought.

-2 Good Comment? | | Report
from ramseysc wrote 4 years 1 week ago

One more thing, It really is a pain in the behind to go through the process (not so much for me since I'm military and did not have to pay for or take a class) but one common theme I am seeing is that responsible gun owners take the time to go through the proper channels to get the CC permit. By doing this responsible gun owners really are setting a great example and proving to the naysayers that the overwhelming majority of legal gun owners are responsible, law abiding citizens. There is a lot of disagreement on this page, but it looks to me that everyone that has posted follows the law, which speaks volumes about the character of the typical gun owner.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from spartan88 wrote 4 years 1 week ago

I just hope it doesn't become any worse than it already is.

-1 Good Comment? | | Report
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 1 week ago

ramseysc-
Read carefully entry number two of the definition, and note the date that this word entered the usage of the language. Our Founders knew what they meant when they wrote the verbiage of the Second Amendment, and it did not contain a provision for permits. You say you are ex-military, yet state all the weak arguments that gun control advocates use to argue against an armed populace. As to law enforcement, they have no more need to know whether a citizen is armed, or not. They will not have the advantage of knowing whether a criminal is armed, or not, so, why should the law abiding be treated differently?

Main Entry: in·fringe·ment ￼
Pronunciation: \in-ˈfrinj-mənt\
Function: noun
Date: 1628
1 : the act of infringing : violation
2 : an encroachment or trespass on a right or privilege

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from 1uglymutha wrote 3 years 48 weeks ago

rep. campbell is typical of those who wish to impose their views on others. the u.s. constitution gives every american the right to keep and bear arms, either concealed or otherwise.

leave the constitution alone!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from gsuperna wrote 3 years 41 weeks ago

Being a gun shop owner I always encourage anyone who buys a handgun to take defensive shooting classes.My wife and I both have taken such a class.God have mercy on the poor sap that tries anything with me or my wife.Do I think A course should be required,no but I strongly recommend it.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from countitandone wrote 3 years 41 weeks ago

Keep in mind "preliminary approval" of any legislation does not make that legislation law...not yet anyway.

Kudos once again to the State of Arizona for their guts to be #1 when it comes to being a coservative, constitutionaly thinking place to raise a family.

Not law yet, as I said, but the most important step in the right direction...CCW,no permit.

Vote staunch constitutionalists this November. I'll say it again; vote staunch constitutionalists this November.

To be the third (3rd) progressive state to allow this inalienable right to fruitition makes only fortyseven (47) left to go! Support our NRA, join or re-up today.

Think of joining the NRA as a kind of war bond drive, like back in the 40's. Don't delude your thinking this is anything OTHER THAN THAT!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from proudfather2 wrote 3 years 24 weeks ago

Let's not kid ourselves, the dem. from phoenix is only thinking of the loss of MONEY! not about the FREEDOM that is granted in the constitution. It is a right not a privilege that can be manipulated by some up tight liberal. I have never harmed another human being, I should not have to pay for a freedom that was granted to me by my forefathers!

0 Good Comment? | | Report

from blackdawgz wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

I am a law-abiding citizen, and I have a concealed carry permit.

It is unconstitutional and an infringement of my 2nd Amendment right to bear arms.

It is just another tax.

Criminals carry concealed anyway.

It is just another law to break.

As our Congress serves by example that our country is headed into lawlessness, and the citizenry follows suit, the day is coming when it would be a mistake to leave home without it.

+9 Good Comment? | | Report
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

CCLs are just another way for the government to collect more revenue and exercise more control. Criminals will not bother to go through a permitting process, nor honor the requirements and conditions. By a strict interpretation of the Second Amendment, any infringement on the right to keep and bear arms is unconstitutional. The requirement for a permit is an infringement, as that makes an otherwise law abiding citizen a criminal if he exercises his rights without benefit of government permission. Another disturbing aspect of the CCL is the fact that it is a backdoor gun registration scheme, as the State keeps careful records of who is licensed. I am disturbed, but not surprised, that Rep. Chad Campbell, D-Phoenix, refers to the concealed weapon permit as "a small fine." It reflects that the attitude of our lawmakers is that keeping and bearing arms, and thus, the basic right to self protection, is a privilege to be bought, instead of a constitutional guarantee.

+9 Good Comment? | | Report
from spartan88 wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

I have always thought the 2nd amendment is all you should need to carry.

+8 Good Comment? | | Report
from jcarlin wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

Undecided. Not sure about having to pay fees to carry, even though I pay one myself. I don't have to pay one to vote. On the one hand, a local bureaucrat having the ability to deny me that right bothers me. On the other hand, the process very clearly prevents a convicted felon from legally carrying concealed. If the permit process serves the purpose of being that clearing house, that's ok by me. Without the permit process, how does one decide who is a "law-abiding citizen", or even if they qualify as such?

+7 Good Comment? | | Report
from Walt Smith wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

I agree, The current system is just a way to milk money from honest tax payers and law abiding citizens. Crooks are going to conceal weapons regardless. Allowing everyone to carry will make crooks think 3 or 4 times before they try to comit a crime.

+7 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jeff Bowers wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

My basic objection is why there's so much money involved in what should be a simple thing.

Here in NC, you have to take a class, which runs about $80-$100, depending on time and location. Then the $75 to the county for the application. I do object to the courses being manditory, but that's my personal thought, since I have a few Marine Pistol Expert badges. I have figured out which end of a pistol is the dangerous one. It just seems a reason to milk money from people somehow. +6 Good Comment? | | Report from jamesti wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago funny how he called it a "fine" instead of a fee. the whole thing is just more gov. control. +6 Good Comment? | | Report from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I agree with the unconstituionality of CCW permits, laws, etc. If I am entitled to bear arms as a law abiding citizen, why do I need a permit to show that I am in compliance with all laws? (ex.: not a convicted felon, not in a prohibited class, etc.) Whatever happened to burden of proof of guilt? However, I will maintain my CCW permit until such time as the machine says I don't need it. No way am I going to get booked on a felony firearms charge and lose ALL my gun ownership rights. I don't need a permit to carry a shotgun or an AR, but I could be prohibited from either with a firearm violation. If these issues concern you and you don't belong to the NRA or 2nd Amendment Foundation, you should consider joining them AND you local carry support groups. JMO +5 Good Comment? | | Report from Cgull wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago The more states that alow conceled carry without permit the better. If every crook / felon thinks that everyone is packing he will think twice before robbing or mugging again. Crooks carry, why cant we? +5 Good Comment? | | Report from deerstalker wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I think this a good idea, but I also think that they should require the class for people to get some skills training. As for the part about the program making people register so Law enforcement can discern who has a weapon..I am kind of torn. I think (b/c I want to work in law enforcement) that allowing officers to know who has a weapon is good, but I also don't like the idea of officers finding that info out and calling in more officers as backup to a situation which could set some people off. +3 Good Comment? | | Report from BowtechWVU wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago The article shows good representation of gun owner laws and being able to see the consealed weapon. +3 Good Comment? | | Report from seadog wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I agree with the general sentiment of the comments. I've always argued that CC laws violate the 2nd Amendment--as CRM pointed out. The need for a permit is an infringement on my right to bear arms. So is the requirement to conceal. I have a CC permit and most of the time I would probably choose to carry concealed rather than open (to avoid making myself an obvious target). But that should be MY choice, not the state's. Spartan88 said it well--the Second Amendment should be all you need. +3 Good Comment? | | Report from jamesti wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago well said mtn huinter +3 Good Comment? | | Report from jjas wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I don't have a problem w/people needing a license to carry. I do have a problem w/it being so expensive and time consuming to accomplish. Many states don't require any training and others require a ridiculous amount. As usual, I think the answer lies in the middle. Seems to me that if a person wants to carry they'll learn how to operate a firearm. I use to be a big proponet of range training, but in reality, most people will forget all they've learned from a one time class. Especially since these are skills they will rarely (if ever use). I think it's up to the individual to be responsible enough to learn how to use a gun. But.....if they wish to carry, I think they need to learn the states laws about what is legal and what isn't when it comes to the use or brandishment of that firearm and pass a test. Prison time and lawyer bills are a heck of an expensive lesson to learn because of ignorance of the laws. +3 Good Comment? | | Report from Sarge01 wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I don't have a problem with the training class. I know a lot of guys that want their wife to have a CC permit to protect them, but they don't know which end of the gun the bullet comes from. I think for their sake and maybe prevent another negligent shooting the class is a small price to pay. People tend to forget that people don't know everything there is to know about a firearm the day they are born. +3 Good Comment? | | Report from spartan88 wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago What would happen if all of the law abiding citizens decided to not renew their CCW and still carried what ever they wanted however they wanted. Including any knife. Then when questioned by the government just pull you pocket sized bill of rights out of your back pocket? Seriously, if everyone who believes in the Bill of Rights did this we would win. We couldn't all be prosecuted. Just me because I posted this "ludicrous" idea online. +3 Good Comment? | | Report from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago I'm not sure that requiring a CCW to carry a concealed weapon violates the 2nd Amendment. In AZ, anyone can carry openly, which seems to allow any citizen the unrestrained right to bear arms. I'm not sure how I feel about the proposed change, since I live in AZ. I suspect it will remove a tool that the police use to stop and shake down gang-bangers (who on the whole don't have CCW permits but often carry concealed firearms). And anything that allows the police to harass, detain, or charge gang-bangers with crimes, or increase the prison terms they serve, is outstanding as far as I'm concerned. It's easy enough to get a CCW permit in AZ. The classes are inexpensive..$70-$80, and the permit fee is$60. So, in my view, he cost schedules and requirements do not impose any significant barrier to exercise the right or privilege (depending on your view) to carry a concealed firearm.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from spartan88 wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

But to own a handgun you already undergo the background checks. I live on a tight budget. I will be breaking bank when I buy my hand gun. And will have to save again to buy the permit. It sucks.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Amflyer wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

I for one don't mind. They may be a pain to maintain and cost a bit, but It's nice to at least have Tom, Bob, or Sue have to get some training to figure out what it's all about.

Government, by its nature, is willfully (there's the sticker, isn't it?) giving up some of your natural rights to enjoy the benefits of public service. So I don't have a big problem with taking a class, paying a fine, if it keeps a few well-meaning but clueless individuals from strapping it on and heading out.

Yeah, it sucks that you have to pay for the license, but compared to the weapon, holster, ammo it's really not that much of a deal.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from seadog wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

The best argument I've heard for permits of any kind is safety training. It's not enough to make me agree that my rights should be restricted by the need for a permit, but it is enough to make me accept a permit requirement that includes safety training as a less restrictive alternative to having no carry rights at all.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from jbird wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

I don't have a problem w/needing a permit, or safety class. I just think they should both be free.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

"helps...law enforcement discern who might be carrying a weapon"

Why does law enforcement have to know which law abiding citizens have a weapon?

"pay a small fine"

He refers to the payment for getting a permit as a fine? Life time gun owner? I don't know what I think of this guy...

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from logan.vandermay wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

ccw permits are joke and should not be needed. A criminal is a criminal whether or not these laws are in place. Why should law enforcement officers have the right to know who owns or carries. If you are doing things legal it is none of their business. Every citizen should be able to carry and have to answer to noone. Spartan 88 had a great idea, everyone should just carry and they can't put us all away.
One other thing, if you want your wife to carry, why not teach her yourself instead of making someone take a course. You could still have a course as an elective for people who wanted to take it without makeing it a regulation.

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from spartan88 wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

ingebrigtsen- driving is not a right given by the bill of rights. One can argue their weren't cars so it is stupid for me to bring this up. But......no rights were given for riding horses. Also, have you seen what you have to do to get a drivers license? It doesn't mean your a good driver.

While on 2nd amendment rights. Banning automatic weapons annoys me. I am a supporter in not hunting with them, but if a war broke out I would want one. It IS violating my rights by banning them.

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from JMaag wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

"And how the heck r police gonna manage to differentiate between legal carry and illegal if there is no paperwork whatsoever???? unlicensed u r in the same bulk of the criminals.. every time.."

It's very simple. If you are contacted by the police, and you have a gun and a felony conviction, you are going to jail. If you are contacted by the police, you let them know you are armed and licensed, you have no criminal history, you are compliant, and you allow the officer to hold the gun while he does his business, there won't be a problem.
However, given the present CCW laws, yes; if you carry a gun without procuring the necessary training and licensing for it, you lump yourself with felons; because by the letter of the law, you are one.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

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from njones wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

the most important reason for a permit to be required is so that background checks,etc are performed on the carrier. lessens the chance of a felon "legally" carrying.

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from shotgunlou wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

The permit is just a way to regulate who is carrying concealed and is kinda dumb. One of the most important things I took away from taking the class to get my CCW though was that while I may sometimes feel justified in busting a cap in someones ass the law doesnt neccessarily agree. So in order to keep otherwise law abiding citizens out of prison for shooting someone when it wasn't LEGALLLY justified I think the class is a great idea. The class helped me know when I was justified and when I need to have some common sense and walk away. Also where I could and couldnt carry my weapon. I would like to do away with the permit though.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 1 week ago

ramseysc-
Read carefully entry number two of the definition, and note the date that this word entered the usage of the language. Our Founders knew what they meant when they wrote the verbiage of the Second Amendment, and it did not contain a provision for permits. You say you are ex-military, yet state all the weak arguments that gun control advocates use to argue against an armed populace. As to law enforcement, they have no more need to know whether a citizen is armed, or not. They will not have the advantage of knowing whether a criminal is armed, or not, so, why should the law abiding be treated differently?

Main Entry: in·fringe·ment ￼
Pronunciation: \in-ˈfrinj-mənt\
Function: noun
Date: 1628
1 : the act of infringing : violation
2 : an encroachment or trespass on a right or privilege

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from mutt wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

I would say that there has to be some training or proof that you know how to use that firearm.

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from spartan88 wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

Yes I agree in safety training but paying hundreds of dollars to get a CCW is stupid. As is paying to renew it. It is also stupid that some states/cities don't allow CCW. It was wrong when the old west outlawed guns in cities and it is wrong now.

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from WesMcCormick wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

I agree with both sides, I wish we'd all go to open carry, that way there would be alot less doubt as to who's carrying and who aint. Just one mans opinion

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wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

One thing to bear in mind. Most of your western states have a pretty good head about this whole thing. However, if you so much as brandish a firearm, permit or not, in a state that doesn't have legislation like castle doctrine. Right or wrong-You are going to be arrested and you're going to need a good lawyer to prove some very sticky criteria for self defense.

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from spartan88 wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

I would take the class just so I would be well informed. It just is annoying how expensive everything is.

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from Mike Plotner wrote 4 years 1 week ago

cant you open carry with out a permit? that whould be interesting walking down franklin steet in richwood (ohio) with a 12 gga. he he he he

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from spartan88 wrote 4 years 1 week ago

I believe it is illegal to open carry in some states. Including Texas!?!?!?!??

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from ramseysc wrote 4 years 1 week ago

One more thing, It really is a pain in the behind to go through the process (not so much for me since I'm military and did not have to pay for or take a class) but one common theme I am seeing is that responsible gun owners take the time to go through the proper channels to get the CC permit. By doing this responsible gun owners really are setting a great example and proving to the naysayers that the overwhelming majority of legal gun owners are responsible, law abiding citizens. There is a lot of disagreement on this page, but it looks to me that everyone that has posted follows the law, which speaks volumes about the character of the typical gun owner.

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from 1uglymutha wrote 3 years 48 weeks ago

rep. campbell is typical of those who wish to impose their views on others. the u.s. constitution gives every american the right to keep and bear arms, either concealed or otherwise.

leave the constitution alone!

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from gsuperna wrote 3 years 41 weeks ago

Being a gun shop owner I always encourage anyone who buys a handgun to take defensive shooting classes.My wife and I both have taken such a class.God have mercy on the poor sap that tries anything with me or my wife.Do I think A course should be required,no but I strongly recommend it.

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

It's a good idea after all criminals have always done it !

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

Would u want people driving withouth minimum training and license?? no, cos a car driven by someone inept could kill u, your loved ones or friends.. its just a dang license, and u shouldnt need to redo it or pay more to keep it if u went through the trainingcourse offcourse, but everyone should still get the course cos guns kills. handguns r meant for people. dont u want to know that people with guns have a minimum safety course first so they dont kill anyone by accident cos they dont know what a safety is??? seriously....

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

Would u want people driving withouth minimum training and license?? no, cos a car driven by someone inept could kill u, your loved ones or friends.. its just a dang license, and u shouldnt need to redo it or pay more to keep it if u went through the trainingcourse offcourse, but everyone should still get the course cos guns kills. handguns r meant for people. dont u want to know that people with guns have a minimum safety course first so they dont kill anyone by accident cos they dont know what a safety is??? seriously....

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

And how the heck r police gonna manage to differentiate between legal carry and illegal if there is no paperwork whatsoever???? unlicensed u r in the same bulk of the criminals.. every time.. if there is no legal difference even criminals gets to keep theire weapons, that u know is gonna be used for ill, just cos your all uptight of any guncontrol anywhere.. ever... (tripple facepalm) :P

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from countitandone wrote 3 years 41 weeks ago

Keep in mind "preliminary approval" of any legislation does not make that legislation law...not yet anyway.

Kudos once again to the State of Arizona for their guts to be #1 when it comes to being a coservative, constitutionaly thinking place to raise a family.

Not law yet, as I said, but the most important step in the right direction...CCW,no permit.

Vote staunch constitutionalists this November. I'll say it again; vote staunch constitutionalists this November.

To be the third (3rd) progressive state to allow this inalienable right to fruitition makes only fortyseven (47) left to go! Support our NRA, join or re-up today.

Think of joining the NRA as a kind of war bond drive, like back in the 40's. Don't delude your thinking this is anything OTHER THAN THAT!

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from proudfather2 wrote 3 years 24 weeks ago

Let's not kid ourselves, the dem. from phoenix is only thinking of the loss of MONEY! not about the FREEDOM that is granted in the constitution. It is a right not a privilege that can be manipulated by some up tight liberal. I have never harmed another human being, I should not have to pay for a freedom that was granted to me by my forefathers!

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from spartan88 wrote 4 years 1 week ago

I just hope it doesn't become any worse than it already is.

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from ramseysc wrote 4 years 1 week ago

I see both sides of the debate on this one. I, for one, do not think that requiring a concealed carry permit is an infringement of the right to bear arms. It doesn't prohibit carrying arms, or even carrying concealed, it just requires extra measures be taken if someone wants to get one. I do agree with the fact that in many states the fees are borderline extortion, but I think the permit itself makes sense for a few reasons. The first being that I know a lot of people who are interested in buying a gun to "You know, keep in my purse on the way back from the bar." After immediately explaining to the person why this is a terrible idea for so many reasons, it makes me realize that a lot of people that aren't as gun savvy as those who frequent this site need the proper training before they run around with pistols stuck in their belt lines. Another point is that it can help with police safety. I'm not sure how it works in other states, but in Virginia a permit is required if someone is going to keep a firearm within reach while operating a vehicle. This allows for police to know when approaching a vehicle (it shows up on hte record when the car is pulled over) and allows the police to be more cognizant of the potential danger. Just food for thought.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 2 weeks ago

horsed rive themselves. and we r talking about possibly harmfull to other peoples activities here. seems fair to have some minimum training with them.

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