Ok I will ask the stupid question here, I assume this only works with a duplex reticle and not something extravegant like the Boone and Crocket?

ben-wc

You are infected with the gun nut bug I'm afraid...

Since I use the CDS or similiar older scopes of other manufacturers almost every hunt, I suppose I consider them a need in the Wyoming mountains and plains. Certainly many shots are under 300 yards but I want to be able to pull off the 500-600 yard shot if need be as DEP described. Seems like that time usually comes around. As was stated before regarding long range shots the wind is usually the deciding factor determining a hit or miss. I will throw out one other caviat, be certain a fawn or calf is not standing on the other side of or near the buck or bull you are about to shoot at 550 yards. You probably don't want to kill both of them...

I suppose the dial would prove useful now and then, but I survived without this system for the last 50 years, so will continue to do without. Frankly, I think these "dial-in" scopes encourage too much ultra-long-range shooting. I have seen two episodes of young guys shooting bull elk at 900+ yards, and one of a fellow shooting at a bighorn ram at 597 yards, using his dial-in scope, missing the first shot, then killing the ram on the second shot. One has to ask, what if any of these three shots was off a foot and broke the animal's leg? Then you've got a wounded elk at almost 1,000 yards with no tracking snow, or a ram at 600 in very rough country, again with no tracking snow. Shooting it a big part of hunting, but I think some people have forgotten the "hunting" part.

I'm pretty sure Billy Bob Shakespeare said the first one and our new blog babe Sarah Palin is responsible for the "hopey changey" quote.. Ragnar makes expensive knives so I suppose he is a friend of yours and at one time or another uttered these words. But no, I do not need that particular Leupold system or any other to be perfectly honest.

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2009-03-06-Huffpopalin1.jpg

I'm part of the "I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him." faction. Just sayin'.

DavidPetzal:

This is why you make the big money, I guess. There's a lot of loads that kill really well that don't shoot QUITE flat enough (including my favorite, the .308 with 180 grain bullets; how often does anybody mention that one?). If those dials could slap another hundred yards or so on the .308 in the field, they'd really be worth it. And I never thought of that; I assumed CDS was meant for the .30-.378 Weatherby or .338 Lapua boys. You just opened up a whole new door. You got me thinking; I can feel the rust falling out of my ears as I type this. I'd be interested in hearing about how that .30-06 load has worked for you in the field, with or without CDS.

Dave,
You just had to bring that secret load up didn't you?

But to your post, I agree a range compensating system is invaluable if you take the time to practise with one. I have one on my older Burris and it's true to 350, ok to 400. The 500 hash mark, nah.

I have always wondered why 200 grain 30-06 commercial loads are so hard to find, especially since there seem to be 150's, 180's and 220's everywhere.

I have never taken any shots at Big game past around the 250 yard mark, and I don't see myself changing my opinion on this. Now, if I possibly planned a once in a life time hunt spending a few extra dollars on a scope to ensure more success makes sense.
By the way, what is the MSRP of this scope?

@ Ralph the Rifleman: the least expensive is the 3.5-10x40mm. It goes for $500, and the top end is the 4.5-14x50mm for $800. Straight from midway. There are 3 additional models between the two.

@ WAM: Does Leupold do retrofitting on other models? I was under the impression that this was a model unlike its predecessors. If they can indeed fit past models with this nifty dial, they could make more money than Davey Crockett!

@ Jason Hart: From everything I've looked at, the cds model comes with a duplex reticle. The elevation turret circumvents the need for holdover below the crosshair.

@ jason Hart

Not a stupid question at all. Most range compensating reticles work at only one or two magnification settings. The CDS is independent of power setting. I'm not getting mine to extend the range of my "downtown" shots, only to set a more precise aiming point which will be checked at the range before use. Low light dictates using the lowest power and the reticle dots are hard for me to read for proper hold over. To each his own. I simply prefer not to miss my point of aim.

BB25

You said "The most unbiased definition I can think of is "Anytime you have to compensate for bullet drop and/or wind drift it is long range".

Unless I fell out of a tree, that starts in earnest with any cartridge that I am familiar with at 100 to 200 yards. I sorta know what you intended to say, but that in itself is a contradiction to say that long range starts at 600+ yards... I think most of us can ignore the coriolis effect in our hunting scenarios.

Or - you could learn and remember the trajectory of your load.
I'm afraid the CDS won't estimate range or compensate for wind.
A dot or similar ranging device as part of your scope's reticule will do a pretty good job of ranging.

Or - you can get a battery-operated laser device.

WA Mtnhunter, you forgot the difference between the Northern and Southern Hemisheres. BB25, I agree, and opinion varies with experience(distance, calibre-on and on). Dave, an interesting article would be on 'real' long distnce accuracy/compensating systems for several different optics systems-hunting systems, not those currently in use in military theatre. It could be a tabular comparison with reference shots on some of the more common distances and conditions-you sure know how to standardize these scenarios. One thing that the magazine does once in a while is invite in experienced sportsmen in comparing gear; perhaps you could ask several of the more knowledgable bloggers-using their geography to advantage, to participate. This subject area is moving so quickly that I think this would be of interst. A final thought. From a business standpoint, I wonder how many of these Leupold expects to sell, and how their existing scope owning customers feel about obsoleting the pieces they have. (I couch this thought in another famous quote: "one can never have too many guns, knives, and bullets." I think that might have been Elmer Fudd).
Thanks!

I have mixed feelings about the CDS system. It is a good idea, but must be calibrated to the load that you are shooting, which means take it out and shoot it at the ranges that intend it for and see if it's on target. The scope is basically a tactical scope with uncovered adjustment dials. These dials are normally calibrated in fractional minutes of angle. You shoot the rifle with the scope zeroed and see how many minutes of angle drop you have at what range. You then make up a table of MOA adjustment at distance. You measure the distance and set the elevation dial at the appropriate MOA drop. The scope is now zeroed for that distance. The Custom Dial System takes the calculations out of the field. You still have to do them, but only to determine the custom dial calibration. If the measurements are wrong or the calculations are wrong, the dial will be wrong. If you change loads, the dial will be wrong and you need to go through the whole process again. You also need to carry an accurate rangefinder. Get the range, set the dial, aim and shoot. I'm still tempted to get the Burris Eliminator. It's got the rangefinder built in and can be re-programmed when you change the rifle or load. It's got electronics, they can fail, but the scope will still work without them. I've shot prairie dogs at 250 yards, but I still question whether I'm steady enough or accurate enough to try a real long range shot on big game under real world conditions.

The older I get the more simple and efficient are the tools I use. With this strategy I am more successful. A good rangefinder like Leupold's RX1000 is more useful than any high tech range adjusting scope.
Regarding a post from last spring; you were right Dave-the .257 Weatherby is best with a 120 gr. bullet. This was a one season fling, and the love affair while torrid, is now over. Lipsey's contracted a run of 250 Ruger no 1A light sporters in 6.5x55; traditional blued steel and walnut. (some is very good walnut!) I acquired one and will mount a Leupold VX3 2.5x8 with standard duplex for my deer and antelope hunting next year. Whaddya think? By the way, a nine pt. mule deer (wheat fed; 268 lbs. on the hoof) was absolutely flattened this season with my old 7x57 and one Hornady light magnum 139 gr. sst.

To FocusFront: The .30/06 with a tough 200-grain bullet is a terrific load and (dare I say it?) will do just about anything a .338 will do, and with less recoil. Great for elk or for Africa as an antelope rifle. Any antelope. This will do them in. I've never understood why the factories insist on loading the 220, which is like lobbing mortar shells and ignoring this one.

To Cbass: They will calibrate it out to 600 yards.

To all: A number of people have asked me about laser rangefinders. The best one I've used (and I haven't used all of them by any means because there is a bunch out there) is the Leica is the Leica RF 1200, which, as its name implies, is good out to 1,200 yards. It's small, light, ergonomically friendly, and very powerful. The price, while not cheap, is still affordable. I think it's a much better instrument than the RF 1600, which gives you not only the range, but all sorts of other information such as the Dow-Jones and the odds on the upcoming Colts-Jets game.

Herr Petzal

Thanks for the Leica RF info. I have been drooling over a LR1600 ($799) for obtaining ranges to objects in the next zip code. The LRF 1600 does have a few bells and whistles too many. I currently have a Nikon Monarch 800 which has served me well, but always need a new tool! I could use another rangefinder, the one item I do not have a back up for in my pack-up kit.

HNY

I enjoy hunting immensly. I enjoy fine arms, especially well made double shotguns.
A well made bolt gun, factory or custom, has a beauty all it's own that mandates certain values. Such is also true of scopes. Brand names scream of value in the ocular world. Love Zeiss! Can afford Leupold!
I suppose I should look at my last name and see if it end with -berg or -stein.
Not saying all the new stuff ain't neato, farout and groovy and not worth every red cent asked for, but as long as my 1975 mod Leupold VXII 3x9 works, I see no vast future in purchasing other, "high dollar" gizmos!!

I do enjoy reading about this stuff, you guys keep it up.

Bubba

What if the NFC Worst Seachickens beat the Saints? LOL

WA Mtn.

Bullet drop starts immediately after the bullet exits the muzzle of a rifle. I do not question that fact. But when do most hunters start thinking about bullet drop and compensating for it? I'd say about 300 yards. From a 100 yard zero to 200 yards I'd say 1.5 MOA (~3") of drop is about normal, and this is assuming the rifle is zeroed precisely at 100 yards and not an inch or two high. How many people can call a shot on a game animal that is 3" off of their point of aim? But when you get past 300 yards people start holding on the backs of animals and at rocks, trees, and shrubs above the animal trying to compensate for bullet drop. I think you knew what I meant in my definition and are just looking for an argument, which I have no problem with. This site is for people to express thoughts and opinions, I'm simply expressing mine. If you have a better universal definition for "long range" I'm all ears.

Also, the coriolis is probably negligible for most hunters that shoot 100-200 yards. But then again, this post was about the CDS system and long range shooting. My take on everything is if you're going to do it, do it right. You want the least amount of variables possible, and to me that means the coriolis. I compensate for it and honestly believe you can see its affects if you shoot well enough.

99explorer

That's a topic I've been reading about in Robert McCoys book lately. Very interesting topic. People are mainly concerned with the angle involved when shooting at different elevations, but what many people don't think about is the change is air density when they shoot up/down to different elevations. You brought up a valid point. There are so many variable when shooting long range, BC, muzzle velocity, humidity, barometric pressure, temperature, spin drift, bullet yaw, wind, coriolis, changes in elevation, variations in powder/bullet lots (resulting in different BC's and muzzle velocities. It's amazing to me people can even hit things at a couple hundred yards with so many variables. That's part of what makes it so fascinating to me.

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It also occurred to me that many people like to sight their rifles in off the bench. How many times have you shot a game animal off a bench? I never have. Now have you ever checked how your rifle changes zero off of shooting sticks or a bipod compared to the bench? It could very well be different. And if it's off by half a minute at 100 yards, it will be off by at least half a minute at all other yardages. So at 500 yards it will be off by 2.5" minimally. Oh so what? 2.5" at 500 yards is nothing right? well that's assuming that your drop data is dead on with no other error and that you broke your shot cleanly with no shooter error involved. Add to the fact that bullet dispersion is not linear so that theoretical error of half a minute will be greater, I guarantee that.

So yep, looks like this simple little system Leupold came out with solves all the problems for long range shooting. Bet those guys at Lockheed- Martin feel dumb after spending over $6 Million dollars on a system that will "guarantee" a first round hit for a trained sniper at long range when Leupold can do the same thing for the average Joe for under a hundred bucks!!

BBB25: I do believe you are beginning to understand why those of us who sometimes take a distant shot devote a lot of money on equipment, considerable practice at the bench and in the field, are very particular regarding reloading components and how they are assembled, plus a great host of other factors, most of which I am certain you mentioned, to make one or two "long" shots a season. If nothing else this preparedness appears to reduce 300-400 yard shots to sheer simplicity. If you wish to debate the interior and exterior ballistics of this practice I will be glad to participate as my time allows. That said if you use the proper equipment and devote the effort you can make long shots. Leupold's answer is a good one albeit not a great solution as better ones exist and have for a great long while. However given the size of their packaging and the quality of their workmanship at a decent price I find this scope to be very attractive. I don't know what Lockheed-Martin does for a living nowadays.

Isha

I don't think it is a bad product, I said earlier I do think it allows people to extend their range to 500 yards or so with reasonable and acceptable hunting accuracy and precision. I just fear people will get these dials and think if the animal is within a distance that correlates with a hash mark on their dial they'll feel qualified to take it when that simply is not the case. I've spent I don't know how much time and money in attempting to perfect 1000+ yard shooting and honestly have a lot of work and improvement to do before I will be satisfied. The product is appealing and a better option in my opinion than BDC reticles, it's just not the "best" solution. This is a great starter product as far as I'm concerned but if you want to shoot farther than 600 yards I think you'll need something more. I'm not criticizing Leupold, i own more of their Optics than any other brand by a far margin, and if I was a guru at Leupold and thought of this solution, I'd market it in much the same way as they do in all honesty.

BBB25: Thanks for the comments which bear the same genuine logic that you appear to apply to most topics. I recently passed off my thousand yard rifle to my son who in fact can make better use of it than I am able to accomplish. Due to recently developed health issues I think I need to reduce my long shots to a more moderate range of say 500-600 yards. At least for the time being. Nevertheless I do find 1000 yard shooting very interesting, entertaining, and something that can be accomplished even if great effort and study is necessary.
I have a friend who holds a record with some varmint shooting association. He is a gun nut, a member of the Memphis SWAT, and builds his own rifles. In front of witnesses he managed to hit a prairie dog here in Wyoming at 1857 yards first shot with a .338 Edge. He scored similiar shots repeatedly the same afternoon. Again this guy is completely involved in this type of shooting. He knows what he is doing from the time he reloads a round until after he pulls the trigger. Somehow a I get the same impression of you...

The vegetable elk soup I had for dinner last night and leftover for lunch today was mighty tasty, with a few New Year's blackeyed peas thrown in for good measure.

Now that's long range shot placement my friends...

I have posted before that a hunting partner of mine fired 4 times at a mule deer in a 20-25 mph gusting crosswind at 503 yards and finally connected with one facing chest hit. Lucky at best....

Sounds like a great shot, eh? Wrong... he sheepishly admitted that he did not even think about compensating for the wind. Darn lucky the deer was not standing broadside or a crippling shot would have been had and an escaped wounded deer in that oak brush.

I've seen the results of those Long Rangers and their poor shooting on game. We have had one guy banned from our camp already for such nonsense.

Shane you sound like a man with tremendous hunting experience, especially in the area of long range shooting, so I suppose it would be prudent that I simply accept your statements as the undisputed truth.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions.

BBB25: I have several but my favorite is not your standard or conventional piece. It is a '65 vintage Sako Finnbear magnum action which had never been barreled. Face trued, lugs lapped, etc. Jim Garner, at Douglas, hand selected the 26 inch No.3 (if that indicates much) SS barrel with a 11 degree crown. It is chambered for 7 mm x .404 (a 7 mm RUM for all practical purposes) topped with 30 mm Leupold rings and, for now, a Huskemaw 5x-20x. John Porter, of Cody, stocked the barreled action a High Tech kevlar/fiberglass model. The longest shot I have made on meat was a hit and a miss in my opinion. At 1005 yards through Leica binocs/rangefinder I managed to kill a sitting jackrabbit. But I missed my mark as I was aiming at his shoulder on a sunny <5 mph day and shot his axx off. I figured that I missed by about 10 inches hitting at 5 o'clock. Longest bull elk shot with this rifle was only 526, deer 602, and antelope 52 (yes 52 yards as I wanted to see what happened at close range, the buck dropped instantly like everything else). Regardless with either 7 mag or 300 mag I use only Berger VLDs. In the 7s I have only shot 168 gr (enough Retumbo to get 3400 fps with no pressure signs although the bullets are seated a bit deeper than I like, do you know anyone who makes custom magazines for old Sakos?) and never tried the 7 mm/180s although a neighbor has had extremely good luck with the latter from a 7 Rem Mag. In fact he killed a B & C Yukon moose last year at about 1000 with the first shot but put in a follower just to be sure. Frankly the next time you ask I might have a different answer insofor as rifles/scopes as I tend to tinker around, trade, and change quite a bit. Right now I am attempting to devise a lightweight rifle suitable for fairly long range shooting as my horses, like me, are not getting any younger LOL. Thanks for asking plus I am also interested in your rig if you care to share. Also I truly admire the information on your blog entries as it either substanciates what I think or lends me new ideas that perhaps I had not adequately considered. I welcome you to continue this practice. Long ago I vowed to never live through a day without learning something new.

My son and I drew additional cow/calf elk tags (season 10-1-10 thru 12-22-10) in addition to our general Wyoming bull tags (20 days in October only). I purposely did not go cow hunting because I feel that the wolves are taking enough of a toll on the local herd. Now the F & G has reopened our cow/calf season for the month of January, 2011 due to the recently discovered brucilosis epidemic in the elk herd and three beef cattle herds that also graze the area. I can't see that us killing two cows today will help. Its 43 degrees with not much wind but will drop to subzero tomorrow. My horse trailor lights quit working. Sooo should I attempt to fix the lights, drive 30 miles, saddle the foxtrotters, shoot 2 cows at whatever range I prefer, or stand by my original thoughts that the local elk have problems enough as is?

Ishawooa

I would fix my horse trailer lights and go shoot a couple of elk if I had an opportunity and freezer space! But that's just me. Right now my freezer is full, so I would not do it myself at this time.