


October 01, 2009
Discussion Topic: Second-Amendment Showdown, Part II
By Dave Hurteau
In case you were living under a rock last year, in the landmark District of Columbia v. Heller case, the Supreme Court ruled that the 2nd Amendment protects an individual’s right to own a gun for private use, thus striking down the district’s handgun ban. But D.C. is a federal enclave. The question of whether the amendment protects a broad constitutional right and should therefore override state and local gun-control ordinances, such as Chicago’s handgun ban, is still up in the air—but not for long.
From the Los Angeles Times:
The Supreme Court set the stage for a historic ruling on gun rights and the 2nd Amendment by agreeing today to hear a challenge to Chicago's ban on handguns. . . .
A ruling on the issue, due by next summer, could open the door to legal challenges to various gun control measures in cities and states across the nation. . . .
Lawyers for the gun owners argued that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" set out in the 2nd Amendment is "incorporated" into the 14th Amendment and thereby applies to states and localities.
Be sure to check out the full article, and then tell us your reaction.
Comments (15)
Our founding fathers the right to arm themselves was the second most important thing on their minds. The rights of states was added much later. The "shal not be infringed upon" part should be enough to end the conversation, but liberals have a strange way of reading more something that isn't there.
It's interesting to think of the excuses made against individual firearms ownership in terms of other claims made about the Bill of Rights as regards "states rights." I can totally get behind the notion that the First Amendment only protects citizens from Federal intrusion on speech, if it means we can require as a matter of state law, all registered democrats to take a test and get a psychological examination before being issued a license to speak.
I'll start off by saying I think the Supreme Court should apply the Second Amendment to the States.
That being said, I don't think it is a clear cut issue. For the first 150 year or so of U.S. history the Bill of Rights applied only to the federal government and the individual states could safely ignore it. It was only after the Civil War and the passage of the fourteen amendment that the other amendments to the U.S. constitution began to be applied to the States.
The 14th amendment states in part:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
The privileges and immunities clause was quickly eviserated by the Slaughter House Cases. It was only later that some of the more important amendments comprising the Bill of Rights were applied against the States by the Supreme Court holding that such amendments were a requirement of "due process" and thereby "incorporated" in the due process clause of the 14 amendment.
Until very recently, it was only the most radically liberal organizations that advocated applying all of the Bill of Rights against the States by incorporating all of these amendemnts in the due process clause of the 14 amendment. I believe the NRA now advocates this position as well. Politics does indeed make strange bedfellows.
I'm all for incorporating the second amendment right (now held to be an individual right) into the due process clause of the fourteenth amendment, but the total incorporation argument goes to far for me.
There's no need to require the states to significantly modify their grand jury procedures to comply with the fifth amendments grand jury requirements.
Anyway, that my two cents worth.
I find it worthy of a firing squad when lawyers attempt to "interpert what our forefathers really meant". They meant what they F--ing said. They did not draft the constitution as a document to be interperted with magical hidden meanings 200 years down the road. These are the rules of our country! If you don't agree with them there are many more countries on earth to choose as your address. Mike Deihl you are correct! Democrats do need psycological examinations.
The Heller case was big. This could be bigger. The 14th Amendment was intended to extend the entire Bill of Rights to the states, including municipalities within the states. The courts have not always enforced the plain language of either the 2nd or 14th Amendments. Let's hope they do so this time.
Guys they aren't gonna go away quietly and neither should we. We need to continue exercising our rights, voices and communication between us and our state legislators
This is very big, and I think it will go our way. Chicago's ban is just as unconstitutional as DC's, and of course just as stupid. If anyone has any integrity or brains anymore, the bans will be lifted.
Scenario -
"Oh hey excuse me, clerk of this here store that I'm robbing, let me ditch this Glock cuz it's banned here. Be right back."
NEVER HAPPENS.
DUH!
Federal law should always supercede state and local law, that is one of the reasons we fought the Civil War. I would like to see some truth injected into all the fearful and specious arguments.
2 things keep Americans free in particular, a vast and empowered middle class and private ownership of firearms.
I would like to see our right to defend ourselves and our property given more recognition, but by and by large there seems to be this understanding that one doesn't really have the right to self defense (heck the only times I ever been in trouble was for defending myself too vigorously, the cops always take everyone involved regardless). But the police cannot possibly defend everyone and the mere fact of law provides no deterrent to desperate men.
I still maintain the best form of security is a tight knit neighborhood (with guns in the right hands). I also think the Roberts Court wants to facilitate gun friendly court rulings before Scalia dies and is replaced by Obama. That was the obvious reason why Bush put Roberts in anyway, they want one of theirs in charge of the court as long as possible and Roberts is comparatively young. While I want my 2nd amendment rights preserved, I don't like the fact that Roberts is a corporate lawyer, rather than a trial lawyer. As such he is lead man for the very class that oppresses the American middle class the most. He continually rules for corporate entities over human beings contributing to this present abomination where somehow corporations (which exist only to create profits for shareholders and CEO's) have more rights than individual people and families. It isn't capitalism anymore anyway, it is this corporatist farce where managers see the crash coming and try to exploit the mess before the whole house falls in.
By Mayor Daley's way of thinking, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights don't apply outside of DC? All of these tyrants who believe this nonsense seem to think that they are the rulers of independent city-states such as existed in Ancient Greece. Sic Semper Tyrannis.
Legally speaking the Ruling could go one of two ways. The majority (assuming a majority exists) could rule that the so called "local option" is similar to the local option to ban or allow strip clubs (an extension of the right to free expression as a form of free speech) or similar to dry counties which ban the sale, though not the possession, of firearms. The other option is incorporation through the 14th amendment, the right to freedom of worship or freedom of speech cannot be overruled by a state law or local statute. And in contrast to strip clubs or bans of the SALE of alcohol, either is allowed in a private residence. Furthermore, the aforementioned (and likewise assumed comparison) is illegitimate, the judiciary (SC justices) are always supposed to err on the side of what is clearest or most established as law; i.e. the Specifically stated right to bear arms. Hopefully the newly appointed Sotomayor will uphold our right and traditional way of life. Unfortunently, however she stated in her 2004 decision in US v. Sanchez Villar ""the right to possess a gun is CLEARLY (emphasis added) not a fundamental right." How she can justify that it is not a fundamental right...it is the second amendment. Good thing the founders did not add onto the first amendment by stating free speech was for the purpose of achieving liberty (among other obvious things, as the right to bear arms is for much more than ONLY the militia). Liberals would try to take that right away too. They of all people should know that the exclusion of specific purpose of a right, aka right to privacy, does not mean the right (or purposes/reasons FOR that right) does not exist. Likewise the explicitly stated RIGHT to bear arms can be for more than ONLY the maintainence of a militia- meaning that the right includes purposes other than only the militia. I strongly doubt the forefathers would have ever accepted such a justice's appointment, much less nomination. Just keep praying for this country ya'll.
Sorry for the novel, but will probably be worth your time to read. Thanks!
Because the NRA actively advocates for the preservation and expansion of individual rights it also is a radically liberal organization, and just like the others, has blinders on keeping it from seeing other relevant issues. I, for one, would prefer greater local control rather than having the federal government decide all critical issues for us. You can't criticize the fed. govt. as being intrusive on every otherr issue, but not intrusive enough when it comes to gun rights. If you are pushing for the Second Ammendment to be applied to the states, then accept that you are taking a radically liberal stand.
I wasnt around when the constitution was written. But, why would you write the constitution and expect it NOT to be applied to the states. I wouldnt travel from england by boat to america, fight for my freedom, and then write a document that ONLY applied to the federal government. Any reasonable person would write the constitution to govern where they intended to live, and not govern only the federal government.
Its amazing how all of the politicians who are "reperesenting us" are taking away our rights as Americans right in front of us with a very small number of people showing any concern...the last person able to do something like this his last name was Hitler
Actually, Hitler was not taking rights away from Americans. I believe the last person to seriously restrict our personal freedoms was George W. Bush.
let us hav our guns if someone breaks the law by shooting someone lock them in jail and take their gun leave me and all other ethical and law abiding citizens alone we have done nothing wrong we have our rights the american government was established so that the people would have a say in the country and government if we have a problem we need to write letters to our senators and represenatives telling them to let us alone if they wont dont elect them if we use our rights they cannot take any away from us But i want to see them take my gun from me!!! Haha it'll be lots of fun!!!! :)
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I'll start off by saying I think the Supreme Court should apply the Second Amendment to the States.
That being said, I don't think it is a clear cut issue. For the first 150 year or so of U.S. history the Bill of Rights applied only to the federal government and the individual states could safely ignore it. It was only after the Civil War and the passage of the fourteen amendment that the other amendments to the U.S. constitution began to be applied to the States.
The 14th amendment states in part:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
The privileges and immunities clause was quickly eviserated by the Slaughter House Cases. It was only later that some of the more important amendments comprising the Bill of Rights were applied against the States by the Supreme Court holding that such amendments were a requirement of "due process" and thereby "incorporated" in the due process clause of the 14 amendment.
Until very recently, it was only the most radically liberal organizations that advocated applying all of the Bill of Rights against the States by incorporating all of these amendemnts in the due process clause of the 14 amendment. I believe the NRA now advocates this position as well. Politics does indeed make strange bedfellows.
I'm all for incorporating the second amendment right (now held to be an individual right) into the due process clause of the fourteenth amendment, but the total incorporation argument goes to far for me.
There's no need to require the states to significantly modify their grand jury procedures to comply with the fifth amendments grand jury requirements.
Anyway, that my two cents worth.
The Heller case was big. This could be bigger. The 14th Amendment was intended to extend the entire Bill of Rights to the states, including municipalities within the states. The courts have not always enforced the plain language of either the 2nd or 14th Amendments. Let's hope they do so this time.
It's interesting to think of the excuses made against individual firearms ownership in terms of other claims made about the Bill of Rights as regards "states rights." I can totally get behind the notion that the First Amendment only protects citizens from Federal intrusion on speech, if it means we can require as a matter of state law, all registered democrats to take a test and get a psychological examination before being issued a license to speak.
Guys they aren't gonna go away quietly and neither should we. We need to continue exercising our rights, voices and communication between us and our state legislators
This is very big, and I think it will go our way. Chicago's ban is just as unconstitutional as DC's, and of course just as stupid. If anyone has any integrity or brains anymore, the bans will be lifted.
Scenario -
"Oh hey excuse me, clerk of this here store that I'm robbing, let me ditch this Glock cuz it's banned here. Be right back."
NEVER HAPPENS.
DUH!
Federal law should always supercede state and local law, that is one of the reasons we fought the Civil War. I would like to see some truth injected into all the fearful and specious arguments.
2 things keep Americans free in particular, a vast and empowered middle class and private ownership of firearms.
I would like to see our right to defend ourselves and our property given more recognition, but by and by large there seems to be this understanding that one doesn't really have the right to self defense (heck the only times I ever been in trouble was for defending myself too vigorously, the cops always take everyone involved regardless). But the police cannot possibly defend everyone and the mere fact of law provides no deterrent to desperate men.
I still maintain the best form of security is a tight knit neighborhood (with guns in the right hands). I also think the Roberts Court wants to facilitate gun friendly court rulings before Scalia dies and is replaced by Obama. That was the obvious reason why Bush put Roberts in anyway, they want one of theirs in charge of the court as long as possible and Roberts is comparatively young. While I want my 2nd amendment rights preserved, I don't like the fact that Roberts is a corporate lawyer, rather than a trial lawyer. As such he is lead man for the very class that oppresses the American middle class the most. He continually rules for corporate entities over human beings contributing to this present abomination where somehow corporations (which exist only to create profits for shareholders and CEO's) have more rights than individual people and families. It isn't capitalism anymore anyway, it is this corporatist farce where managers see the crash coming and try to exploit the mess before the whole house falls in.
Our founding fathers the right to arm themselves was the second most important thing on their minds. The rights of states was added much later. The "shal not be infringed upon" part should be enough to end the conversation, but liberals have a strange way of reading more something that isn't there.
Actually, Hitler was not taking rights away from Americans. I believe the last person to seriously restrict our personal freedoms was George W. Bush.
let us hav our guns if someone breaks the law by shooting someone lock them in jail and take their gun leave me and all other ethical and law abiding citizens alone we have done nothing wrong we have our rights the american government was established so that the people would have a say in the country and government if we have a problem we need to write letters to our senators and represenatives telling them to let us alone if they wont dont elect them if we use our rights they cannot take any away from us But i want to see them take my gun from me!!! Haha it'll be lots of fun!!!! :)
I find it worthy of a firing squad when lawyers attempt to "interpert what our forefathers really meant". They meant what they F--ing said. They did not draft the constitution as a document to be interperted with magical hidden meanings 200 years down the road. These are the rules of our country! If you don't agree with them there are many more countries on earth to choose as your address. Mike Deihl you are correct! Democrats do need psycological examinations.
By Mayor Daley's way of thinking, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights don't apply outside of DC? All of these tyrants who believe this nonsense seem to think that they are the rulers of independent city-states such as existed in Ancient Greece. Sic Semper Tyrannis.
Legally speaking the Ruling could go one of two ways. The majority (assuming a majority exists) could rule that the so called "local option" is similar to the local option to ban or allow strip clubs (an extension of the right to free expression as a form of free speech) or similar to dry counties which ban the sale, though not the possession, of firearms. The other option is incorporation through the 14th amendment, the right to freedom of worship or freedom of speech cannot be overruled by a state law or local statute. And in contrast to strip clubs or bans of the SALE of alcohol, either is allowed in a private residence. Furthermore, the aforementioned (and likewise assumed comparison) is illegitimate, the judiciary (SC justices) are always supposed to err on the side of what is clearest or most established as law; i.e. the Specifically stated right to bear arms. Hopefully the newly appointed Sotomayor will uphold our right and traditional way of life. Unfortunently, however she stated in her 2004 decision in US v. Sanchez Villar ""the right to possess a gun is CLEARLY (emphasis added) not a fundamental right." How she can justify that it is not a fundamental right...it is the second amendment. Good thing the founders did not add onto the first amendment by stating free speech was for the purpose of achieving liberty (among other obvious things, as the right to bear arms is for much more than ONLY the militia). Liberals would try to take that right away too. They of all people should know that the exclusion of specific purpose of a right, aka right to privacy, does not mean the right (or purposes/reasons FOR that right) does not exist. Likewise the explicitly stated RIGHT to bear arms can be for more than ONLY the maintainence of a militia- meaning that the right includes purposes other than only the militia. I strongly doubt the forefathers would have ever accepted such a justice's appointment, much less nomination. Just keep praying for this country ya'll.
Sorry for the novel, but will probably be worth your time to read. Thanks!
Because the NRA actively advocates for the preservation and expansion of individual rights it also is a radically liberal organization, and just like the others, has blinders on keeping it from seeing other relevant issues. I, for one, would prefer greater local control rather than having the federal government decide all critical issues for us. You can't criticize the fed. govt. as being intrusive on every otherr issue, but not intrusive enough when it comes to gun rights. If you are pushing for the Second Ammendment to be applied to the states, then accept that you are taking a radically liberal stand.
I wasnt around when the constitution was written. But, why would you write the constitution and expect it NOT to be applied to the states. I wouldnt travel from england by boat to america, fight for my freedom, and then write a document that ONLY applied to the federal government. Any reasonable person would write the constitution to govern where they intended to live, and not govern only the federal government.
Its amazing how all of the politicians who are "reperesenting us" are taking away our rights as Americans right in front of us with a very small number of people showing any concern...the last person able to do something like this his last name was Hitler
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